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我知道這個國軍知道這裡都很認真很努力我要跟你討論的就是說要撤離的時候等於沒有撤離他過去的時候你中央知道嗎"},{"start":311.937,"end":313.679,"text":"知道他沒有撤離嗎?沒有去說救我?沒有去說阿欽要撤離?跟那個大麻村長,去說不說阿欽走?部長,在這兩天的時候,我們19號發生覺得嚴重性的日日叫人要撤離,日三發生事情"},{"start":337.81,"end":343.073,"text":"在發生事情的時候,他們看到水泥沒兩分鐘,跑不掉啦現在我要跟你討論的就是說在他們沒有撤離的時候你們中央有什麼方法嗎?沒有啦,那被捕官,我們都不知道要不要撤離,要不要做什麼事事悲慘耶,沒有啦,他們是悲慘耶部長"},{"start":367.701,"end":370.144,"text":"我們有什麼方法可以來合作來中央和地方可以來檢慶上海沒有啦我不是說我們的地方還是我們的中央是要怎麼讓你們知道該撤離的沒撤離的要過境還可以加強沒有啦過境有這個問題啦"},{"start":393.695,"end":396.558,"text":"你剛才也說了 聽到也感到不曉得如何回應你的問題我想再回憶 看來的狀況就是當時如果有做廣播撤離的時候光復鄉公所確實有告訴我們說它的廣播系統出問題但是花蓮縣的警察局"},{"start":411.374,"end":424.169,"text":"他們在光復的部分趕快派出消防車跟警車用廣播的方式請大家趕快離開然後花蓮縣政府知道說我們疏散撤離的人數高達有1837戶的時候到真正艷澀湖有這個潰堤的危機總共是超過將近43個小時"},{"start":432.378,"end":443.004,"text":"也就是說如果趕快做疏散撤離包括我們常常在講的預防性撤離一定是保全戶也就是有身障或是年紀大的那同時我們也告訴他說因為按照花蓮縣他們的疏散撤離計畫確實有個叫垂直避難那這一次呢罹難的很多老人家他們幾乎都是集中在一樓因為最後他淤沙的程度呢是在一樓以下那往二樓三樓的也是一個可以撤離的方向"},{"start":459.853,"end":484.085,"text":"第一個就是說大家會覺得說好像過去農業部一直推動說有黃色警戒或紅色警戒的撤離計畫很多人覺得那沒問題可能第一個掉以輕心但是這個都是後話第二個就是說疏散撤離的過程當中人力夠不夠按照我們現在中央跟地方所了解的部分人力在疏散撤離上面應該是夠的但是比較重要是戶口的清查"},{"start":484.605,"end":505.934,"text":"你到底知道现在房子里面住的是多少人他能不能离开所以我们看到很多让人家心痛的部分产生的时候我们还是一样非常沉痛任何一个生命的损失都是我们无法沉痛的部分所以我在很多工作会议里面都特别提到垂直的撤离的方式是人命保全最重要"},{"start":506.374,"end":531.119,"text":"財產損失是次之的所以我是覺得這樣子的溝通計畫還是要跟大家再繼續加強那當然中間有一位村長他全村都撤離我也跟委員報告這位村長他在112年的時候有榮獲我們消防署的一個任性社區所以他不只撤離挨家挨戶去請人家離開他還用他的主語用廣播系統告訴人家一定要離開而且全村都巡視"},{"start":532.179,"end":546.85,"text":"所以他是一個非常好的一個地方上的一個村長我們希望用他的案例當成是一個示範的案例未來再推廣很多有需要疏散撤離甚至強制疏散撤離的部分當成一個最好的參考"},{"start":547.771,"end":561.958,"text":"因為我們一定是知道人定真的無法勝天沒有人知道到底什麼時候會有產生溢流因為我也跟委員報告那一天早上當我們知道這個溢流口只剩下幾公尺的時候早上4點鐘我們的消防署長就開始召開會議"},{"start":563.619,"end":590.791,"text":"然後七點鐘的時候每一次農業部發表了紅色紅色紅色從八點一直發布紅色警戒兩個小時發布一次到下午兩點半的時候才產生從早上八點到兩點半產生的時候一直在通知地方上要趕快來協助但是真的就是憾事發生那既然憾事發生的話大家都要能夠理解說未來我們到底溝通的部分法令上不足的部分或者是我們整個的疏散撤離企劃有不夠"},{"start":591.391,"end":603.5,"text":"明確的部分的話 還是需要深切的檢討啦對啦 普通 你剛才就是說溝通的問題 撤離的問題在這個過程當中 我覺得在法律當中也有一些不足的地方 我們未來要趕緊去改啦在這個過程當中 你看事情發生之後"},{"start":613.717,"end":619.081,"text":"你看很多人做志工,在這個過程,大家不小心做志工而已入獄的時候,那個心情看多艱苦所以保證,我是要跟你說,我們最重要最重要的天災我們沒辦法去預防,要不然我們要撤離的時候,我們一定要做到到底啦"},{"start":638.613,"end":642.577,"text":"因為你剛才說的大馬村 那個村長有受過分跟他能說 也能說他的族 民族 他有的嘛跟八村那個 但是我們不能讓任何一村來受盡他們的風險啦所以未來的時候 不管在哪一個地方我們要去訓練他們"},{"start":668.427,"end":673.648,"text":"公佈電台也不可以廢棄啦那個廣播系統他剛才你說的說你有沒有看那個消防的車一直公佈一直公佈這個有沒有看到驚悚說啦,可以沒有那個發展會公佈的時候可以再驚慌最恐慌的啦在這裡面,部長你看,大家都要再努力因為未來會重建的路"},{"start":698.168,"end":704.452,"text":"我們也跟花蓮互相加油有未來的一天跟我們一起繼續所有事情像鳳林"},{"start":712.994,"end":713.475,"text":"謝謝王美惠"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":437,"blocks":[["王委員美惠：（9時59分）主席，我們請部長。"],["主席：我們請劉世芳部長。"],["劉部長世芳：委員早。"],["王委員美惠：部長辛苦了。部長，9月23日發生花蓮這件事情，說實在的，大家如果看到電視內容，無法想像這發生在臺灣、中華民國，包括我在內，我看到電視的時候還以為是日本海嘯的重播，我看了看，剛好看到旁邊有一個全聯，我才知道這發生在我們中華民國、臺灣！","部長，剛剛經濟部也提到，他在7月就知道有這個問題，在陸陸續續開這麼多會議、討論這麼多事情之後，結果像剛剛部長說的，天災地變我們沒辦法預防，但是我們可以減輕損傷。就像剛剛巧慧立委說的，大家如果說到這些問題，我們心裡都很難過，我們如果可以更早撤離的話，這19位亡者不會過世，還有5位失蹤！部長，在這個過程當中，我們不是要說誰認真、誰怎麼樣，我們是要想想看，怎麼樣讓我們的百姓可以生活在比較安全的地方。","說實在的，大家也想要住在都市、大家也想要住在安全的地方，但是他們住在那麼深山、偏僻的地方，他們的經濟又比較差，需要我們中央政府來幫忙、多關心。在這個過程當中，本席也覺得很奇怪，造冊的問題如同剛剛部長說的，既然高雄可以做，為什麼他們的環境這麼差，會發生颱風、發生水災，但造冊卻這麼不正確？部長，這種情況是不是中央跟地方政府要聯合處理到最正確，不要說這裡住了10個人卻只有造冊2個人而已。而報導一開始說有一百多個人失蹤了，部長，聽到這一百多個人失蹤了，你、我及所有人都非常難過，覺得怎麼會發生這樣的事情？","本席要跟你說的是，雖然地方制度法第十八條、第十九條有規定地方要做什麼、中央要做什麼，但是事情發生了，百姓怎麼知道你們中央要做什麼、地方要做什麼？在開會過程中，部長你說你打了一通電話讓縣長趕快回來，但是在你們的開會過程中，他們的副縣長都說他們安排好了、做好了，怎麼又會發生這樣的事？來，部長你回答一下。"],["劉部長世芳：我想災害的過程大家都清楚，目前為止還是一樣，我們不從究責的方向出發，我們先從如何可以防止更大的災害產生。我也非常清楚的跟委員報告，在多次的聯繫當中，我們也只能相信花蓮縣政府所提供的這些，不管是依親、收容或者是撤離的人數，當時我也請國軍或者是我們的替代役要到光復鄉公所待命，如果有需要強制撤離的部分，我們希望能夠協助。"],["王委員美惠：部長，我知道國軍等等的都很認真、很努力，我要跟你討論的是，該撤離但地方沒有撤離那幾個村的時候，你們中央知道嗎？知道他們沒有撤離嗎？沒有廣播嗎？沒有廣播要村民趕快撤離，像大馬村廣播說要趕快走。部長，19號就發現事情的嚴重性了，22號要他們撤離，23號發生事情，在發生事情的時候，他們看到水來，不到2分鐘就跑不掉了！現在我要跟你們討論的就是地方如果沒有撤離，你們中央有什麼方法嗎？否則那個父母官都不知道、也沒有要撤離、也沒有要做什麼，死是死百姓，無奈的是百姓！部長，我們有什麼方法可以合作，讓中央替地方減輕傷害嗎？我們不是要說地方或中央的問題，而是你們要知道如果該撤離但沒有撤離的話要趕快加強啊！部長，就是這個問題，你頭腦也是昏沉沉的吧！聽到也覺得難過吧！"],["劉部長世芳：委員，我回應你的問題，我想再回憶原來的狀況，就是當時如果有做廣播撤離的時候，光復鄉公所確實有告訴我們說他的廣播系統出問題，但是花蓮縣警察局在光復的部分就趕快派出消防車跟警車，用廣播的方式請大家趕快離開，然後花蓮縣政府知道疏散撤離的人數高達1,837戶的時候，到真正堰塞湖有潰堤危機，總共是超過將近43個小時；也就是說，如果趕快疏散撤離，包括我們常常在講的預防性撤離一定是保全戶，也就是有身障或是年紀大的。"],["王委員美惠：對。"],["劉部長世芳：同時，我們也告訴他們，因為按照花蓮縣的疏散撤離計畫確實有個叫垂直避難，這一次很多罹難的老人家幾乎都是集中在一樓，因為最後淤沙的程度是在一樓以下，往二樓、三樓也是一個可以撤離的方向。第一個就是大家會覺得過去農業部一直推動黃色警戒或紅色警戒的撤離計畫，很多人覺得就沒事情，可能第一個是掉以輕心，但是這個都是後話。第二個就是疏散撤離的過程當中人力夠不夠？按照現在中央跟地方所了解的部分，人力在疏散撤離上面應該是夠的，但是比較重要是戶口的清查，到底知不知道現在房子裡面住的是多少人、他能不能離開？所以我們看到很多讓人家心痛的部分產生的時候，我們還是一樣非常沉痛，任何一個生命的損失都是我們感到沉痛的部分。","所以我在很多工作會議裡面都特別提到，這個垂直撤離的方式是人命保全最重要，財產損失是次之的，所以我是覺得這樣子的溝通計畫還是要跟大家再繼續加強。當然中間有一位村長是把全村都撤離，我也跟委員報告，這位村長在112年的時候榮獲我們消防署的韌性社區，所以他不只撤離，挨家挨戶去請人家離開，他還用他的族語用廣播系統告訴人家一定要離開，而且全村都巡視，所以他在地方上是一個非常好的村長，我們希望用他的案例當成是一個示範案例，未來在推廣很多有需要疏散撤離，甚至強制疏散撤離的部分，當成一個最好的參考。因為我們一定知道人定真的無法勝天，沒有人知道到底什麼時候會產生溢流。","我也跟委員報告，那一天早上，當我們知道這個溢流口只剩下幾公尺的時候，早上四點鐘我們的消防署長就開始召開會議，然後七點鐘的時候，每一次農業部發表了紅色、紅色、紅色，從八點一直發布紅色警戒，兩個小時發布一次，到下午兩點半的時候才產生，從早上八點到兩點半產生的時候，一直在通知地方上要趕快來協助，但是真的就是憾事發生。既然憾事發生了，大家都要能夠理解未來我們到底溝通的部分、法令上不足的部分，或者是我們整個疏散撤離計畫有不夠明確的部分的話，還是需要深切的檢討啦！"],["王委員美惠：對啦！部長，你剛才說到溝通的問題、撤離的問題，在這個過程當中，我覺得法律也有一些不足的地方，我們未來要趕快去改善。你看事情發生之後有多少人做志工，在這個過程大家不是只做志工而已，大家進去的時候那個心情有多難過！","部長，我是要跟你們說，最重要、最重要的，我們無法預防天災，不過我們在撤離的時候一定要做得澈底！你剛才說的大馬村那個村長有受過訓，他也會說原住民族語，但別村呢？我們不能讓任何一村遭受風險。所以未來不管在哪一個地方都要訓練，廣播系統也不能壞掉，剛才你說到消防車一直廣播、一直廣播，這個是有看到，但如果廣播系統沒有壞掉，可以早一點開始廣播，就可以再減輕傷亡情況。","部長，我們大家都要再加油，因為未來的重建之路，我們希望跟花蓮互相加油，才會有未來的一天，也希望部長繼續將所有事情，像你們和鳳林鎮的一些誤會，我也希望救災的時候不是政治口水啦！而是要怎麼樣趕快將地方百姓他們的災害降到最低，部長，以上。"],["劉部長世芳：感謝。"],["主席：謝謝王美惠召委。","接下來請黃捷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-3","speakers":["黃建賓","王美惠","張宏陸","蘇巧慧","黃捷","許宇甄","高金素梅","傅崐萁","牛煦庭","李柏毅","張智倫","吳琪銘","林德福","徐欣瑩","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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