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謝謝主席我們讓部長休息啦我們食藥署江署長來 有請江署長還有我們食安辦的徐主任還有我們那個健保署的陳署長陳署長你三個可以到不然你會被我們拜國總執行我帶你去喝 給你忙好好 來"},{"start":35.151,"end":57.261,"text":"為了這個大廠這個事情 我昨天前天我在屏東我爸爸去屏東拍賣場 屠宰場還有在台地的 還有在地霸的 我都去問我跟你講 我們行政院你剛剛講跟邱成金的對話 我也聽了"},{"start":59.628,"end":88.141,"text":"我覺得這個問題好像不是食藥署的事這個問題是受益受益的事受益就是受益師全聯會跟中央續產會有派到各個所有的獨宅廠有受益的這一次的這個大廠應該不是進口的本土的是我們台灣的你看這個就是大廠"},{"start":90.137,"end":114.29,"text":"看一看 這是這個現在你的痘痘因為痘痘可能有破損我說這很實際的喔 很到位的喔我這到現場好不好你的痘痘有破損看起來外表還好但是裡面有生病就好像人一樣那你的痘痘如果瘀起來還是怎麼樣瘦醫師是不能放行的"},{"start":115.431,"end":139.039,"text":"他就要跟我說這個不行他就要上去化製廠就等於像死的豬要去化製煮的蔥 變成豉料或是變成肥料他這個不放心像屏東那裡有三個屠宰縣就是要三個獸醫師今天農委會的人沒有來農業部的人沒有來要來的話我就給他頂了"},{"start":142.611,"end":167.148,"text":"你這個秀衣去那裡有監索崗位嗎有確實去看嗎或是說 有人好像有名沒有人去那裡那這樣就很糟糕了喔所以他要不要放刑他應不應該放刑我們是這個階段那這個是出問題是出在這個處理這喔 處理這這就出問題了"},{"start":169.589,"end":195.668,"text":"現在他回去已經歐了還是說賣了他就賣了嘛回去一天很累耶 流很多很多很多現在你再來就是食藥署劣跡合圓劣跡合圓在哪個地方是在哪個你的角色是從哪裡開始署長你怎麼知道我看你也知道了你回答好你回答我來代替你報告"},{"start":197.249,"end":224.826,"text":"我们跨部会的分工假如这个屠宰线在这个房间里现在相片这个相片里面的屠宰线都是在农方就是受医师要确保之后这一个房间里面都完成但是假如出了这个房间特别是去分切去处理之后假如是由另一个业者食品的业者的时候那个时候就会轮到食药署"},{"start":225.529,"end":240.118,"text":"我跟你報告喔 屏東縣現在像嘉義鄉啦 像泰安 石屏啦他們是 他現在在那裡在拍賣場 我也有去拍賣場耶 我也在那裡吃雞耶因為我那邊有有有這隻 我也要給他五塊三塊的給他吃喔你看那裡很漂亮 你就給他一百塊五 一百塊三這樣賣他這個 自己有屠宰場耶 他現在買賣之後 地下又一樣載到他的屠宰場 好像"},{"start":252.865,"end":278.541,"text":"有的一天在殺七八百頭像太安 像嘉義鄉的話他一天也是兩三百頭在殺四射的那其他都在屏東的屠宰場我現在要問你的就是說你這個事情要去怪時部長怪江署長不對的因為是前面那個環節出事啊他現在是在亡羊補牢在吃苦的"},{"start":280.462,"end":303.666,"text":"你現在這個衆議有盡量他的責任我們要解釋 釐清責任就這樣嘛你現在衆議是屬於公部門的人還是中央市長會的名聘的還是社會意識派來派ON CALL的 白班的到底是 這段是出事的這要追究啊 追究這裡的人不是追究江署長江署長沒過位啊"},{"start":307.105,"end":335.023,"text":"就我所知道這個都是由中央續產會統一去約聘然後獸醫師在裡面去管理但是也是由房檢署農業部房檢署他有一個獸醫師的管理系統這個要在這個上面去回報的那委員剛剛所說的就是說獸醫師是不是有盡責在做對我們來講的時候就是相信第一線的獸醫師"},{"start":336.724,"end":357.814,"text":"很類似我們在看醫生他的判斷那通常我所知道啦很嚴重的不會讓他進來但是常常有一些因為豬還活著然後有的時候不一定看得出來說他是因為生病才變黑或怎麼樣或者是說他是已經在屠宰的時候腸胃道破掉我跟你講"},{"start":359.054,"end":383.105,"text":"包括那些私人屠宰場他們抬了下眼淚賬也是交給這個公司最高的百貨 百貨商去處理他們自己也沒什麼要處理的那些賬都高高處理所以這個公司像這個百貨它的公司設在台北六十六台北我經常說物量在屏東然後社會成本在屏東我看到就很…"},{"start":384.005,"end":388.626,"text":"很難 很困難下去啊這家的母母的 家裡有很多的給你頂起來 我要向石副長說頂起來這家的樹林 都要委託他處理啊你 石耀署"},{"start":402.458,"end":417.446,"text":"你的角色是從哪裡開始你的角色從哪裡開始講什麼你是在菜市場開始 菜市場接手還是在那個我們其實是屠宰場那個房間出去之後分切開始就歸食藥署裡面的來做管理那他"},{"start":418.306,"end":432.26,"text":"我就問說他那個用漂白水是在屠宰場裡面漂白還是拿到工廠去漂白他拿到後面的貨櫃屋裡面那非常高度監視底下的貨櫃屋我們來拍個考察好不好"},{"start":433.959,"end":452.444,"text":"就真的很到位的去看在後面的貨櫃小房間就開幹了 是不是這樣這很嚴肅的問題喔否則是拉到他的工廠那拉到他的工廠去處理的時候有沒有冷鏈啊 有沒有冷藏啊這個都目前看到是都沒有都沒有嘛"},{"start":453.294,"end":458.781,"text":"所以都有可能都會腐敗啊你說在屠宰場裡面就在霧啊或是說在後面的小貨櫃屋或是在那個工廠那個工廠是中間在嘗試啊"},{"start":465.069,"end":489.604,"text":"所以好幾家所以這個我希望秦政院你這個成績的你要來釐清好 恆的協調要好畢竟我們這個是天天在吃啊我常常在吃那個什麼米酸雞 米酸那個就好了現在越想越恐怖耶我從小就在吃耶 吃得很厲害又不死 又不錯"},{"start":491.585,"end":513.929,"text":"所以這個是很嚴肅的東西建國外可能也一樣啦你也是一樣在吃啦所以這個要釐清楚到現在不不希望再有這種事情發生這太差勁了吧 是好不好 你的親身成績你就給他釐清你一直在罵罵罵時務部長一直在罵江署長我就覺得 問題出前面了這樣了解嗎 了解好 來 陳亮宇 來"},{"start":519.298,"end":535.115,"text":"你現在這兩天以後我們要不要貿貿 再六十張不買一張一張就算了跟委員報告 目前報宅到今年到年底通報到食藥署 缺藥平台總共47樣那這47項 我們事實上也有做一些分析包含說有25項 事實上有3"},{"start":538.197,"end":563.015,"text":"24項有三種同類的藥品可以替代另外21種有同類但是不完全進行可以替代剩下的一種就是我們剛剛石部長所說到的Cyclosporine的IV那這個供應事實上是到115年底那取代的廠商食藥署也已經找到了所以關於這一點的衛福部有做剛剛的報告再複述一次這個Cyclosporine的老藥我們台灣沒有辦法自己做"},{"start":564.796,"end":580.634,"text":"是 來我們有特別跟國內的廠商去做協調去爭取那我們也覺得這些專利期以過的藥物在台灣落地在地化其實是在藥物供應任性最重要也是食藥署我再持續努力來推動你們對於國內的"},{"start":583.957,"end":602.064,"text":"學名藥藥廠或者是菸皮藥廠那種藥要用這麼貴的藥你給人家做一定兩個台幣等於你而已嘛你給人家合價合收價嘛不符成本嘛因為那個藥用的量不多嘛你回去以後你如果不在做什麼署部長在做署長他可能也不在處理這個啊反正就盡量有對配就好啊這樣現在不行啊現在你要盤點啊"},{"start":609.955,"end":625.863,"text":"跟委員報告 我們使部長在這個署長任內他那個藥品及支付標準是有公告修法那大家以前都認為說健保署每年的核價都是調降我看報章媒體也是這樣講但是在這個公告修法在4月份之後就可以調升"},{"start":626.363,"end":653.925,"text":"那從4月份到現在呢我們健保署統計有200多項藥品是調生的所以跟委員報告這個部分我們會來密切注意要調生就要這樣準備我大堆資料要靠北靠北你們都在想不然你們如果在插人啊那不是這樣會來注意 會來注意沒有啦 現在這個順便美國川普在那裡亂佈一張旗袖什麼要進進出出 大家要大家要寫旗記就寫 我看部長也說不清楚"},{"start":654.801,"end":671.737,"text":"到底有的就去 如果沒有來日本買歐盟買也可以那一定要讓美國簽字所以這個都是要全盤考量我想我們部長跟署長都有高度跟學術能力我對你們應該是有信心"},{"start":673.699,"end":693.888,"text":"所以這要好好檢討 每天吊那麼高也知道做電梯的要來 你要陳情也要倒一點 我主持 我主持我也是說讓人家可以付成本 讓人家可以做下去不然電梯又來一次 你受得了嗎好 謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":492,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（10時52分）謝謝主席。我們讓部長休息，請食藥署姜署長、食安辦許主任及健保署陳署長，請這三位上來就好。"],["主席：有請姜署長、許主任及陳署長。"],["蘇委員清泉：部長，你的部分等到星期五總質詢的時候我再來好好的向你詢問。","為了豬大腸這個事情，我昨天、前天都在屏東，包括去屏東的拍賣場、屠宰場，還有在那邊殺豬的、賣豬肉的，我都去問了，剛剛你跟邱鎮軍委員的對話我也聽了，我覺得這個問題好像不是食藥署的事，這個問題是獸醫的事，獸醫就是獸醫師公會全聯會跟中央畜產會派到各個屠宰場去駐場的，這一次的大腸應該不是進口的，是本土的啦……"],["許主任輔：是我們臺灣的。"],["蘇委員清泉：你看，螢幕上這個就是大腸，因為豬隻有可能生病，我說的這個是很實際、很到位的，我是有到現場去，有的豬隻可能生病了，你看牠的外表還好，但是裡面生病了，就好像人一樣，牠的腸子如果黑了或是怎麼樣，獸醫師是不能放行的，他就要說這一批或這個不行，要送去化製場，就等於像是死豬要送去化製，煮一煮或處理後變成飼料或是變成肥料，這個是不能放行的。屏東那邊有三個屠宰線，就是要有三個獸醫師……"],["許主任輔：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：今天農業部的人沒有來，如果有派人來的話，我就「釘」他們了，這些獸醫去那邊有監守崗位嗎？有確實去看過嗎？還是只有名字但人沒有去那邊？這樣就很糟糕了。所以他要不要放行、他應不應該放行？我們是在這個階段，問題也是出在這裡……"],["許主任輔：這裡就出問題了？"],["蘇委員清泉：現在牠的腸子已經黑了或是有問題了，就應該不要了嘛，畢竟腸子一天的量有很多很多的。再來就是食藥署的稽核員，稽核員在哪個地方？他們的角色是從哪裡開始？署長知道嗎？我看你也搞不清楚啊！"],["許主任輔：我來……"],["蘇委員清泉：好，你來替他回答。"],["許主任輔：我來替他報告，我們跨部會有分工，以屠宰線來說，在這個房間裡，就是現在相片裡面的屠宰線，都是在農方，就是獸醫師要確保這一個房間裡面的都完成，但是假如出了這個房間，特別是去分切、去處理之後，假如是由另一個食品業者處理的時候，那個時候就會輪到食藥署。"],["蘇委員清泉：我跟你報告，像屏東縣的嘉一香食品、泰安食品，現在是……"],["許主任輔：那都很大間。"],["蘇委員清泉：豬隻在那裡的拍賣場，我也有去拍賣場，我也去那裡按鈕競拍，因為我朋友有執照，我也在那裡5元、3元的按，你看到隻豬漂亮的，就105元、103元的去按鈕競拍。自己有屠宰場的，拍賣完之後一樣把豬隻載回去他的屠宰場，像有的一天要殺到七、八百頭，像泰安、像嘉一香的話，一天也是兩、三百頭在殺……"],["許主任輔：對，自設的。"],["蘇委員清泉：其他的都在屏東的屠宰場。我現在要問你的就是說，這個事情要去怪石部長、怪姜署長是不對的，因為是前面那個環節出事了，他們現在是在亡羊補牢、在幫忙擦屁股嘛……"],["許主任輔：我有聽懂這個意思……"],["蘇委員清泉：現在這些獸醫有盡到他們的責任嗎？我們要先釐清責任嘛，那些獸醫是屬於公部門的人，還是中央畜產會去遴聘的，還是獸醫師公會派來on call的、排班的，到底這次事件的問題是出在哪裡？"],["許主任輔：這個案件……"],["蘇委員清泉：如果要追究應該是要追究這些人，而不是追究姜署長，姜署長是無辜的啊！"],["許主任輔：就我所知道，這個都是由中央畜產會統一去約聘，然後獸醫師在裡面去管理，但也是由防檢署，農業部防檢署有一個獸醫師的管理系統，要在這個上面去回報的。委員剛剛所說的，就是獸醫師是不是有盡責在做？對我們來講就是相信第一線的獸醫師，這很類似我們在看醫生一樣，要相信他的判斷。通常我所知道啦，很嚴重的不會讓牠進來，但是常常有一些，因為豬還活著，然後有的時候不一定看得出來牠是因為生病才變黑或怎麼樣，或者是說牠在屠宰的時候腸胃道破掉或怎麼樣，這個不一定。"],["蘇委員清泉：主任，我跟你講，包括那些私人屠宰場，他們殺完之後也一樣把豬的內臟交給這些公司，交給百威等等的去處理，他們自己也不怎麼想要處理這個啦，內臟都交出去了。"],["許主任輔：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以這些公司，像這個百威，公司設在臺北，納稅在臺北，我上次就說了，污染在屏東，社會成本在屏東，我看了就很不……吞不下去啦，這些弄一弄，弄完後就囤起來，我那天問石部長，他說囤起來，這些私人的也都委託他們處理，食藥署的角色是從哪裡開始？姜署長，你是從菜市場開始接手還是在那個……"],["姜署長至剛：我們其實是屠宰場那個房間出去之後，分切開始就歸食藥署來做管理。"],["蘇委員清泉：我就問說，他用漂白水是在屠宰場裡面漂白的，還是拿到工廠去漂白的？"],["姜署長至剛：他拿到後面的貨櫃屋裡面，在非常高度監視底下的貨櫃屋。"],["蘇委員清泉：我們來排個考察，好不好？就真的很到位的去看。在後面的貨櫃屋小房間就開幹了，是不是這樣？"],["姜署長至剛：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：這是很嚴肅的問題。就算拉到他的工廠，他拉到他的工廠去處理的時候，有沒有冷鏈、有沒有冷藏？"],["姜署長至剛：目前看到是都沒有。"],["蘇委員清泉：都沒有嘛！所以可能都有腐敗啊，你說在屠宰場裡面就在弄了？還是拖到後面的小貨櫃屋？還是拖到他的工廠？他的工廠在長治，有好幾家。所以這個部分，我希望行政院你這個層級的要來釐清好。"],["許主任輔：好。"],["蘇委員清泉：橫的協調要好。畢竟我們是天天在吃，我常常在吃那個什麼麵線羹、麵線，現在越想越恐怖！我從大學就在吃了，吃到現在還沒死算不錯的，所以這是很嚴肅的問題。建國可能也一樣啦，你也是一樣在吃，所以這個要釐清楚，不希望再有這種事情，這太差勁了吧！"],["許主任輔：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：你是行政院層級，你就把它釐清，你一直在罵石部長、一直在罵姜署長，我是覺得問題出在前面啊！這樣了解嗎？"],["許主任輔：了解。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，換陳亮妤。"],["陳署長亮妤：委員好。"],["蘇委員清泉：你這兩天藥「糜糜卯卯」，又有60種不進來了，這是真的還是假的啦？"],["陳署長亮妤：是，跟委員報告，目前報載今年到年底，通報到食藥署缺藥平臺總共47樣。這47項我們事實上有做一些分析，包含有25項，事實上有24項有三種同類的藥品可以替代；另外21種有同類，但是不完全劑型可以替代；剩下的一種就是我們剛剛石部長所說到的Cyclosporin的IV，這個供應事實上是到115年底，而取代的廠商食藥署也已經找到了。所以關於這一點，衛福部有做剛剛的報告，再複述一次。"],["蘇委員清泉：這個Cyclosporin是老藥，我們臺灣沒有辦法自己做？"],["姜署長志剛：我們有特別跟國內的廠商去做協調、去爭取，我們也覺得這些專利期已過的藥物在臺灣落地、在地化，其實是在藥物供應韌性最重要，也是食藥署在持續努力推動的事情……"],["蘇委員清泉：沒有啦，你們對於國內的學名藥藥廠或者GMP藥廠……這種藥已經是很久的藥了，你會讓他們做，一定有兩個大的原因而已，你把人家核價核得太低，他們不符成本嘛！因為那個藥用的量不多，長期以來，你們也沒在做什麼，石部長在做署長時，他可能也沒在注意這個，反正就進口有得買就好了，但現在不行了！現在你要盤點，好嗎？"],["陳署長亮妤：跟委員報告，石部長在署長任內，藥品及支付標準是有公告修法，大家以前都認為健保署每年的核價都是調降，我看報章媒體也是這樣講。但是經過公告修法，在4月份之後就可以調升。從4月份到現在，我們健保署統計有兩百多項藥品是調升的，所以跟委員報告，這個部分我們會來密切注意。"],["蘇委員清泉：要調升就要準備一大堆資料，在那邊「哭爸哭母」，你們才會幫人家想，不然你們也沒在管人家，不是這樣嗎？"],["陳署長亮妤：會注意、會注意。"],["蘇委員清泉：沒有啦，現在這個時候，剛好美國川普在亂搞一場、發瘋，什麼藥進進出出，以後臺灣的藥是會漲價還是會降價，我看部長也說不清楚，到底有的是降價或是漲價？不然向日本買或是歐盟買也可以啊，哪有一定通通要讓美國牽制？所以這個都是要全盤考量，我想我們部長跟署長都有這個高度跟學識能力，我對你們應該是有信心，所以這要好好檢討，把價格調高一點。明天換做點滴的要來立法院陳情了，明天下午1點，由我主持。我也是說讓他們可以符合成本，讓他們可以做得下去，不然缺點滴事件又來一次，你受得了嗎？"],["陳署長亮妤：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，謝謝。"],["陳署長亮妤：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝蘇委員。","接下來請黃秀芬委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":260,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王育敏","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","王正旭","盧縣一","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","邱志偉","洪孟楷","謝衣鳯","廖偉翔","劉建國","葉元之","楊曜"],"page_start":189,"meetingDate":["2025-10-13"],"gazette_id":"1148201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長及行政院食品安全辦公室就「重大食安事件處理之檢討與食安稽核人力不足\n問題」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148201_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}