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請龔部長 陳部長還有內政部的董次長我們請兩位部長 一位次長備詢 謝謝好 部長 次長"},{"start":19.924,"end":36.254,"text":"花蓮的馬太安溪映射湖我們討論這麼久了現在最重要就是在災害來臨之前我們要為以籌謀做好萬全的準備災害發生的時候我們要及時的來救助支援對不對"},{"start":37.475,"end":51.548,"text":"所以現在我們看到這個驗射壺的情形有很多種的做法但是我們想請教的是現在討論這麼久了你們有沒有擔心說萬一如果形成了二次驗射壺的風險會有多高"},{"start":54.035,"end":72.497,"text":"我先跟委員報告就是驗車湖現在如果照現在的雨量跟現在的情態它的流水往下流水是穩定的溢流的部分但是但是它的邊坡能持續的在零星的崩塌然後其實現在目前比較擔心的是所以你們就要在水源頭來解決啊"},{"start":73.738,"end":92.917,"text":"對 沒有因為它的霸體太大然後現在也不穩定嘛那我們也持續的先做監控的部分那其實現在擔心的是地震的時候是不是有可能這些情況都要考慮進去啦那現在最重要就是說你要找到個適合設置緊急這個易洪道的這個排水吧"},{"start":93.377,"end":108.531,"text":"對 所以我們剛才講的從上游的更精準的監測到中下游的這些下游的部分的這些提防的加高跟進入的輸進那個水道的輸進的部分是當作第一優先那這個部分在經濟部水利署的部分所以你們要趕快規劃去做"},{"start":109.191,"end":138.693,"text":"趕快做要先做好未來萬一又有什麼颱風來的時候的準備都要做好來好不好那我要問一下內政部那因為現在我們發生了這個災情那我們整個光復鄉的大同村還有那個太平村的一些低窪地區的災民受寵最大那我們也興建了這個住宅要來安置這些災民的需求但是在長久來講的話我們會不會有遷村的這個考量"},{"start":139.814,"end":156.376,"text":"跟委員報告本部目前根據國土署的同仁在現場的所做的調查那麼有相當的民眾他們希望有中繼宅大概有40戶左右那這個部分我們會盡力協助至於是否要遷村我們必須要尊重在地住民的意願"},{"start":157.157,"end":185.352,"text":"那根据在地住民的意愿我们去做一些调查那他们也要跟县府一起共同来讨论所以刚刚强调就是这个地方比较低洼那你的验射壶的话未来不可能说有没有可能说整个等到水干掉之后的话你把它用爆破的方式把这个泥土泥沙都载走之后不会有个验射壶还是未来就有这个验射壶如果有这个验射壶存在的话我们担心它整个霸体够坚固吗我们担心又有"},{"start":186.332,"end":202.983,"text":"這個豪大雨來的時候這水的沖流崩塌下游的居民怎麼辦這個統統考慮進去好不好好 謝謝那因為說現在現社會在全台灣被觀測的除了現在花蓮地方還有新竹的這個太岡溪對不對"},{"start":204.484,"end":222.178,"text":"對 太岡溪現在部分大概它的映射湖的水蓄量的話大概4.8萬噸大概相當於20座的游泳池至少在你們監測就是還有危險的風險嘛 對不對有危險風險你們有沒有考慮可能就是罷頂降蛙或者是抽水"},{"start":222.438,"end":242.105,"text":"不過因為以現在的這些蓄水量的部分的時候因為它已經持續在溢流所以它全部如果說全部水流出來的話我們預估大概是會讓河道的水增加20到40公分所以它不會影響到整個附近的一個居民所以我們會持續的去關心因為一般的"},{"start":242.785,"end":260.672,"text":"映射壺通常都會在大好雨的時候會把一些它的原來崩落的這些碎石去沖開用這種方式是最單純的方式所以我們會持續的監控你要記得一件事情因為台灣還是有地震地震的時候整個我們說宜山都有可能是山崩"},{"start":261.761,"end":281.422,"text":"落實 都會造成這個驗射壺如果說整個地震來的時候這驗射壺的整個壩體是否穩固都是我們堪慮的問題所以現在有觀測的你們要加強監測不要再發生我跟委員報告現在台灣有可能造成驗射壺的這些區位的盤點大概8000多個區位"},{"start":282.683,"end":306.7,"text":"那这个区位的盘点以后我们分为几个一个是可能会有持续的落实的区位跟有一些是比较稳定的部分所以我们也会公告这个不要因为说它的蓄水量没那么多可是像台湾很多都知道豪大雨来的时候无法疏洪到出来的话会影响后面的灾情了解我们会持续的去监控这个要注意的我们"},{"start":309.442,"end":327.834,"text":"部長請回 我們請留下經濟部長跟台電的王總經理請王總經理部長 王總丹納斯颱風有2454座的電線桿"},{"start":332.717,"end":346.449,"text":"像是骨牌陣一樣倒塌所以本席今天就要跟你講一個電塔電塔電塔倒塌是不是就沒有電電塔是不是造成其他的什麼災害壓到"},{"start":349.83,"end":371.035,"text":"住宅壓到車輛壓到民宅壓到人對不對所以本席跟你提一下桃園市龍潭區我的龍柯山崎這高壓電塔討論這麼久了今天所有的民眾掛起白布條你們處不處理從第一條電桿"},{"start":373.962,"end":399.813,"text":"從榮坑你們要走電子湖到楊桐路要走到這個榮興這個路線裡面有四根電桿要遞上高架的方式這些地方非常危險我告訴你第一根電塔第一根電塔就是消理系的水源頭影響人民民眾的用水第二根電塔在哪裡"},{"start":401.445,"end":429.843,"text":"第二根電塔是最彎最彎的髮夾彎的地方民眾也很多住在那裡第三根電塔在哪裡底下都是民眾今天掛出來白布條寫著你寫著民眾住在山腳下電塔台電住在山頭他們的安全誰來保障台灣的地震土石山崩落石萬一壓到民宅呢"},{"start":431.829,"end":451.719,"text":"所以 我們民眾 我們的里長一直跟你懇求這條路線 十幾年了一直跟你們拜託 要來處理溝通在溝通 最後我請你們處理的時候你們說 里長我已經溝通完畢了 沒問題發包 動工 要來施工了"},{"start":453.01,"end":463.738,"text":"10月18號你們開的說明會是動工說明會你並沒有在會前之前要走這條路線之前開工廳會跟民眾來講通通沒有民眾生命財產的安全你放在哪裡所以你看看這圖圖看看他們掛的白布條里長我給你建議三條路線那本席在這邊具體告訴你"},{"start":480.236,"end":492.622,"text":"有解決的方案可以地下化就是我們從榮科從這邊拉出電來走電子湖走陽桶再從這邊走六杠寮到友達地下化總經理這個問題一定要解決不要告訴我你發包你就要動工停止開工解決這個問題把人民的生命財產放在眼裡好好討論好不好"},{"start":510.919,"end":534.729,"text":"包委員 包委員現在做的這一條線路是桃竹苗的大細股計畫的其中一環我知道大細股計畫我知道這條拉電拉給龍科從竹科拉到龍科 龍科拉過來最後在龍險變電所 對不對有替代道路我現在告訴你一條路6米寬 又直又寬 你不走"},{"start":535.851,"end":564.74,"text":"你要走個有山坡的 有高壓電塔要過好山坡上面那整個大髮夾彎欸路線要走得更長為什麼不能走個安全能對人民 民眾有保障的路線呢跟委員報告 這一題齁我想我們會再持續跟 持續已經十幾年了現在發報了所以總經理 在這邊答應我沒有討論清楚 沒有協調清楚不准動工好不好"},{"start":566.097,"end":583.952,"text":"這個我們會再持續溝通不准動工你要在這邊保證好不好因為所有的事情在做的過程一定是要和諧嘛我們一定會再持續那也會再請委員還有在當地的委員再為溝通清楚路線不明民眾抗議的情況之下不准動工謝謝謝謝呂毅林委員的資訊謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":998,"blocks":[["呂委員玉玲：（11時12分）謝謝主席，請龔部長、陳部長，還有內政部的董次長。"],["主席：我們請兩位部長、一位次長備詢，謝謝。"],["龔部長明鑫：呂委員好。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長、次長，花蓮的馬太鞍溪堰塞湖我們討論這麼久了，現在最重要的就是要在災害來臨之前要未雨綢繆，做好萬全的準備，災害發生的時候，我們要及時的來救助、支援。現在我們看到堰塞湖的情形，有很多種的作法，但是我們想請教的是現在討論這麼久了，你們有沒有擔心萬一形成二次堰塞湖，這個風險會有多高？"],["陳部長駿季：我先跟委員報告，堰塞湖如果照現在的雨量跟情況，它往下游的流水是穩定的溢流，但是它的邊坡仍持續有零星的崩塌，其實現在比較擔心的是可能……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以你們就要在水源頭來解決啊！"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，因為它的壩體太大，然後現在也不穩定，所以我們先持續的監控，其實現在擔心的是地震的時候是不是有可能又有更大的……"],["呂委員玉玲：這些情況都要考慮進去啦！"],["陳部長駿季：對，所以我們……"],["呂委員玉玲：現在最重要的就是，你要找到適合設置緊急溢洪道的地方來排水吧？"],["陳部長駿季：對，所以我們剛才講，從上游更精準的監測到中下游堤防的加高跟水道的疏濬是第一優先，這個部分經濟部水利署已經在做了。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以你們要趕快規劃去做，趕快做。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["呂委員玉玲：要先做好，未來萬一又有颱風來的時候，都要做好準備，好不好？","接著我要問一下內政部，因為現在發生了災情，光復鄉大同村、太平村一些低窪地區的災民受創最大，那我們也興建了住宅要來安置這些災民，但是長久來講，會不會有遷村的考量？"],["董次長建宏：跟委員報告，本部目前根據國土署同仁在現場所做的調查，有相當的民眾希望有中繼宅，大概有40戶左右，這個部分我們會盡力協助。至於是否要遷村，我們必須要尊重在地住民的意願，根據在地住民的意願，我們去做一些調查，他們也要跟縣府一起來討論。"],["呂委員玉玲：我剛剛強調的就是這個地方比較低窪，堰塞湖未來有沒有可能等水乾掉之後，你用爆破的方式把泥沙都載走？如果未來還是有堰塞湖存在，我們擔心它整個壩體不夠堅固，我們擔心又有豪大雨來的時候，它會不會受到水的沖流崩塌，那下游的居民怎麼辦？請把這些通通考慮進去，好不好？"],["董次長建宏：好，謝謝。"],["呂委員玉玲：因為現在全臺灣被觀測的堰塞湖，除了花蓮以外，還有新竹泰崗溪，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：現在泰崗溪堰塞湖的蓄水量大概是4.8萬噸，相當於20座的游泳池，所以我們評估……"],["呂委員玉玲：至少在你們監測就是還有危險的風險，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["呂委員玉玲：有危險的風險，你們有沒有考慮可能壩頂降挖或者是抽水？"],["陳部長駿季：不過因為以現在蓄水量，因為它已經持續在溢流，所以如果全部的水流出來的話，我們預估大概會讓河道的水增加20到40公分，它不會影響到附近的居民，我們會持續的去關心，因為一般的堰塞湖通常都會在大豪雨的時候把一些原來崩落的碎石沖開，用這種方式是最單純的方式，我們會持續的監控。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，你要記得一件事情，因為臺灣還是有地震，地震的時候，移山都有可能，山崩、落石都會造成堰塞湖，如果地震來的時候，堰塞湖整個壩體是否穩固都是堪慮的問題，所以現在有觀測的，你們要加強監測。"],["陳部長駿季：了解。"],["呂委員玉玲：不要再發生二次的……"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，現在臺灣有可能造成堰塞湖區位的盤點，大概八千多個，這些區位盤點以後，我們分為幾個，一個是可能會有持續落石的區位，跟有一些是比較穩定的，我們也會公告……"],["呂委員玉玲：不要因為它的蓄水量沒那麼多……"],["陳部長駿季：了解，我們會綜合……"],["呂委員玉玲：現在臺灣很多都是豪大雨來的時候，水無法從疏洪道出來的話，會造成後面的災情。"],["陳部長駿季：了解，我們會持續的去監控，然後會去……"],["呂委員玉玲：好，這個要注意，部長請回。請經濟部部長留下，並請台電的王總經理。","部長、王總，丹娜絲颱風有2,454座的電線桿像是骨牌一樣倒塌，所以本席今天要跟你講電塔，電塔倒塌是不是就沒有電？電塔是不是會造成其他的災害？壓到住宅、壓到車輛、壓到民宅、壓到人，對不對？所以本席跟你提一下桃園市龍潭區龍科三期的高壓電塔，討論這麼久了，今天所有的民眾掛起白布條，你們處不處理？從龍科你們要走店子湖到陽銅路，要走到龍新路，這個路線你們有4座電塔要採地上高架的方式，這些地方非常危險，我告訴你，第一座電塔就是霄裡溪的水源頭，影響民眾的用水；第二座電塔在哪裡？第二座電塔在最彎、最彎髮夾彎的地方，也有很多民眾住在那裡；第三座電塔在哪裡？底下都是民眾，今天民眾掛出白布條寫著「民眾住在山腳下，電塔、台電住在山頭」，他們的安全誰來保障？臺灣的地震、土石、山崩、落石，萬一壓到民宅呢？這條路線十幾年了，我們的民眾、里長一直跟你懇求、一直跟你們拜託要來處理，溝通再溝通，最後我請你們處理的時候，你們說里長已經溝通完畢了，沒問題，而且已經發包要來施工了。10月18號你們開的說明會是動工說明會，並沒有在會前、要走這條路線之前開公聽會，跟民眾說明，通通沒有！你們把民眾的生命財產安全放在哪裡？所以你看看這張圖，看看他們掛的白布條，里長有跟你建議三條路線，但本席在這邊具體告訴你，有解決的方案，即可以地下化，就是我們從龍科拉出電來走店子湖、走楊銅，再從這邊走六槓寮到友達，地下化。總經理，這個問題一定要解決，不要告訴我發包了就要動工，停止開工，解決這個問題，把人民的生命財產放在眼裡，好好討論好不好？"],["王總經理耀庭：報告委員，現在做的這一條線路是桃竹苗大矽谷計畫的其中一環，這個很重要……"],["呂委員玉玲：我知道大矽谷計畫，我知道這是要拉電給龍科，從竹科拉到龍科，再從龍科拉過來，最後在龍顯變電所，對不對？"],["王總經理耀庭：是，沒有錯。"],["呂委員玉玲：有替代道路，我現在告訴你的那條路有6米寬，又直又寬，你不走，你要走有山坡的地方，高壓電塔要建在山坡上面，那整個是大髮夾彎，路線又走得更長，為什麼不能走個安全且對民眾有保障的路線呢？"],["王總經理耀庭：跟委員報告，這一題我想我們會再持續跟民眾溝通。"],["呂委員玉玲：已經持續十幾年了，現在發包了，所以請總經理在這邊答應我，沒有討論清楚、沒有協調清楚，不准動工，好不好？"],["王總經理耀庭：這個我們會再持續溝通。"],["呂委員玉玲：不准動工，你要在這邊保證，好不好？"],["王總經理耀庭：因為所有的事情在做的過程一定是要和諧，我們一定會再持續……也再請委員和當地的議員……"],["呂委員玉玲：在未溝通清楚、路線不明、民眾抗議的情況之下，不准動工。"],["主席：謝謝呂玉玲委員的質詢，謝謝部長。","現在請黃國昌委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-2","speakers":["陳亭妃","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱志偉","謝衣鳯","呂玉玲","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","賴瑞隆","賴惠員","郭國文","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","蔡易餘","盧縣一","陳冠廷","洪孟楷","張嘉郡","蘇清泉","陳超明","沈伯洋","高金素梅"],"page_start":101,"meetingDate":["2025-10-13"],"gazette_id":"1148201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請農業部部長、經濟部部長、原住民族委員會首長、國家通訊傳播委員會首長、行政院公共工\n程委員會首長、行政院主計總處首長、內政部首長、教育部首長、交通部首長、環境部首長、文\n化部首長、勞動部首長及衛生福利部首長就「丹娜絲颱風及728豪雨災後復原重建情形」進行報\n告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148201_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}