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謝謝主席 我們要有請農業部部長 經濟部部長 台電的總經理今天是總經理來嘛 是不是我們請兩位部長 還有我們台電總經理 謝謝文英浩文英浩三位好 時間的關係 不宜問候"},{"start":25.799,"end":41.408,"text":"我們在推動整個再生能源特別是光電整個歷程當中在2017年的時候太陽光電二年推動計畫修正版裡面針對有關於在水域空間要放地面型的光電兩年的目標是150MW"},{"start":43.936,"end":57.548,"text":"那裡面包括了非常多的水庫我從公開資訊可以找得到的從阿公店水庫寶二水庫內補職水庫一路下來這個是我從公開資訊可以找得到的部分下一個問題"},{"start":60.042,"end":85.809,"text":"針對有關於在水庫放光電板的這件事情民主進步黨有個辟謠專區說太陽能板沒有毒不會破壞烏山頭水庫的水質太陽能板都用清水清理大家都不用擔心不會對水質造成任何的影響請問一下經濟部經濟部的立場跟民進黨的立場是不是一致的"},{"start":87.711,"end":114.329,"text":"報告委員因為水質我們都有監控是如果水質有變的話我們就會知道ok好那這些水它要進到我們沒有我其實問題只有非常簡單啦在水庫裡面裝光電板的這件事情經濟部認為是不是對於飲水不會造成任何影響yes or no我們會監控如果有有異質我們就會來我先給你看喔右手邊的例子來請部長看一下右手邊的例子"},{"start":115.717,"end":138.014,"text":"之前在配合這個計畫的時候針對有關於曾文水庫大浦鄉公所給光電業者在曾文水庫設後來嘉義縣議會做了決議說反對對民生用水的水庫不同意設置太陽光電發電系統嘉義縣議會做了這樣子的決議以後嘉義縣政府就不發了"},{"start":143.164,"end":163.525,"text":"籌備許可那針對嘉義縣政府這樣子的立場經濟部贊不贊成會不會覺得嘉義縣政府是禮盲嘉義縣政府不講道理光電板不會影響飲用水的安全憑什麼不准設因為到最後啦大埔鄉公所被判罰六千萬因為嘉義縣政府不願意給他許可"},{"start":165.529,"end":193.482,"text":"因為我現在從地方政府到中央政府現在我看了覺得很困惑啊嘉義縣民有疑慮嘉義縣議會做決議嘉義縣政府從善如流我沒有在責怪任何一個單位的意思但問題是說中央政府說沒有問題中央政府說很乾淨很安全那一般的民眾就搞不清楚啦為什麼嘉義縣議會做了決議以後嘉義縣政府就可以不發許可"},{"start":194.741,"end":208.809,"text":"那針對有關於水庫放光電板的這件事情我問一個最直接的立法院如果做決議的話經濟部會遵守嗎還是經濟部認為說立法院做立法院的決議我經濟部愛怎麼幹你們管不著"},{"start":211.972,"end":238.419,"text":"這是我的問題因為程序上來講因為從全這個這個水庫放光電板不是只有台灣各有的現象是但這不是我的問題是那大大大致上來講的話都沒有所謂的這個水質變化的問題所以我們當然也允許這樣的處理所以嘉義縣政府不發許可就嘉義縣政府不講道理嗎是不是程序上來講的話地方政府有地方政府多種的考量可能水質的擔心自己"},{"start":240.96,"end":262.768,"text":"他擔心水質有沒有道理擔心水質本來就有道理就有道理嘛 非常好所以我最後關鍵的問題嘉義縣議會做了決議嘉義縣政府就不發許可現在我的問題很直接啊我們立法院如果做了這樣子的決議經濟部水利署會不會停止推動在水庫放光電板"},{"start":264.275,"end":284.992,"text":"這是我的問題我們程序上來講的話還是第一關就是地方政府如果不同意的話我們就不會收件你還是沒有回答我的問題如果在政策上面立法院做了這樣子的決議經濟部會不會如同嘉義縣政府一樣從善如流地方議會做決議嘉義縣政府就不發啦這個是嘉義縣政府給的理由欸"},{"start":285.552,"end":309.243,"text":"市長 那立法院如果決議的話總是要有一個什麼樣的理由嘛是 沒有關係啊 我100%援引嘉義縣議會的理由啊就是居民擔心用水的安全 剛剛你也說這個考慮是有道理的啊我100%援引用嘉義縣議會的理由啊現在我在思考的事情就是我們過了這樣子的決議"},{"start":310.74,"end":319.329,"text":"行政院會不會說立法院濫權擴權做了決議行政機關沒有必要要遵守這個是我的問題我們來看看說那個決議狀第二個問題目前國家風景區內烏山頭水庫設置光電板"},{"start":326.877,"end":344.899,"text":"要不要環評這件事情 我上次請教環境部部長主席不好意思 這個問題問完我就下來了然後環境部部長說什麼環境部部長說 現在是不用環評未來要不要環評 他們在考慮結果我逼問了半天了以後他把問題推給誰 他把問題推給經濟部的元素"},{"start":345.984,"end":372.816,"text":"他意思是說啊立法委員不要一直去問環境部環境部也很無奈啦裡面有個非常重要的目的事業主管機關他們可以不准他們可以卡著但是他們一直要推現在鍋全部給環境部背那天部長在備詢的時候看起來表情也是很無奈那我沒有辦法不能強人所難嘛所以我現在只能回來問經濟部啊經濟部水利署贊不贊成未來水面型的光電廠納入環評"},{"start":375.868,"end":400.255,"text":"所有的光電或者是綠能產業的推動是整個行政院甚至於全國環境上的目標所以我才不要一人一把號不會是只有我們的目標所以我問了環境部環境部不敢答他要我問經濟部所以我今天站在這邊請教部長所以我們要釐清的就是這個疑慮這個疑慮的話我們就先暫緩那如果先把它釐清"},{"start":400.495,"end":416.988,"text":"沒有 我的問題是你贊不贊成把它納入環評納入環評才知道有沒有辦法去消除疑慮不是嗎現在我問的問題非常的單純現在水面型的光電不用環評然後現在政策評估上面在考慮要把它納入環評從經濟部的立場贊不贊成我們是不是這個問題齁這個因為現在已經引發了"},{"start":423.853,"end":442.242,"text":"社会的关注是不是这个问题我们请相关单位经济部跟环境部因为今天环境部次长也有到把这个问题然后作为你们这个慎重去讨论的一个议题好不好可以吗可以喔好好谢谢主席的才智谢谢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1044,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（11時22分）謝謝主席，請農業部部長、經濟部部長、台電總經理。"],["主席：請兩位部長，還有台電總經理，謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["龔部長明鑫：黃委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：三位好，時間的關係，不一一問候。我們在推動整個再生能源的歷程當中，特別是光電，在2017年「太陽光電2年推動計畫（修正版）」裡面，針對在水域空間要放地面型的光電，兩年的目標是150MW，裡面包括了非常多的水庫，我從公開資訊可以找得到的部分有，從阿公店水庫、寶二水庫、內埔子水庫一路下來，這些是我從公開資訊可以找得到的部分。","下一個問題，針對在水庫放光電板的這件事情，民主進步黨有個闢謠專區說太陽能板沒有毒，不會破壞烏山頭水庫的水質，太陽能板都用清水清理，大家不用擔心，不會對水質造成任何的影響。請問一下經濟部，經濟部的立場跟民進黨的立場是不是一致？"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，因為水質我們都有監控，如果水質有變的話，我們就會知道，這些水要進到自來水廠……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有，其實我的問題非常簡單，在水庫裡面裝光電板的這件事情，經濟部是不是認為對於飲水不會造成任何影響？Yes or No？"],["龔部長明鑫：我們會監控，如果有異質，我們就會追查原因。"],["黃委員國昌：我先給你看右手邊的例子，請部長看一下右手邊的例子，之前在配合這個計畫的時候，針對曾文水庫，大埔鄉公所給光電業者在曾文水庫設，後來嘉義縣議會做了決議說反對，對於民生用水的水庫不同意設置太陽光電發電系統。嘉義縣議會做了這樣子的決議以後，嘉義縣政府就不發籌備許可了，針對嘉義縣政府這樣子的立場，經濟部贊不贊成？會不會覺得嘉義縣政府是理盲，嘉義縣政府不講道理，光電板不會影響飲用水的安全，憑什麼不准設？因為到最後大埔鄉公所被判罰6,000萬，因為嘉義縣政府不願意給它許可。","從地方政府到中央政府，我看了覺得很困惑，嘉義縣民有疑慮，嘉義縣議會做決議，嘉義縣政府從善如流，我沒有在責怪任何一個單位的意思，但問題是中央政府說沒有問題，中央政府說很乾淨、很安全，那一般的民眾就搞不清楚了，為什麼嘉義縣議會做了決議以後，嘉義縣政府就可以不發許可？針對水庫放光電板的這件事情我問一個最直接的，立法院如果做決議的話，經濟部會遵守嗎？還是經濟部認為立法院做立法院的決議，我經濟部愛怎麼蓋，你們管不著？這是我的問題。"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，在程序上來講，因為在水庫放光電板不是臺灣特有的現象……"],["黃委員國昌：是，但這不是我的問題。"],["龔部長明鑫：是，大致上來講的話都沒有所謂水質變化的問題，所以我們當然也允許這樣子的處理。"],["黃委員國昌：所以嘉義縣政府不發許可是嘉義縣政府不講道理，是不是？"],["龔部長明鑫：不是，程序上來講的話，地方政府有地方政府多種的考量，可能對水質的擔心是一件事情而已。"],["黃委員國昌：對，他們擔心水質有沒有道理？"],["龔部長明鑫：擔心水質本來就有道理。"],["黃委員國昌：本來就有道理嘛！非常好，所以我最後關鍵的問題……"],["龔部長明鑫：但是我們會監測……"],["黃委員國昌：嘉義縣議會做了決議，嘉義縣政府就不發許可，現在我的問題很直接，我們立法院如果做了這樣子的決議，經濟部水利署會不會停止推動在水庫放光電板？這是我的問題。"],["龔部長明鑫：以我們的程序上來講的話，第一關就是地方政府，如果不同意的話，我們就不會收件。"],["黃委員國昌：你還是沒有回答我的問題，如果在政策上面，立法院做了這樣子的決議，經濟部會不會如同嘉義縣政府一樣從善如流？地方議會做決議，嘉義縣政府就不發啦！這個是嘉義縣政府給的理由。"],["龔部長明鑫：是，立法院如果決議的話，總要有一個什麼樣的理由嘛！"],["黃委員國昌：是。"],["龔部長明鑫：那個理由如果是確實的話……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係啊！我百分之一百援引嘉義縣議會的理由，就是居民擔心用水的安全，剛剛你也說這個考慮是有道理的，我百分之一百援引嘉義縣議會的理由，現在我在思考的事情是，我們通過了這樣子的決議，行政院會不會說立法院濫權、擴權，做了決議行政機關沒有必要遵守？這個是我的問題啊！"],["龔部長明鑫：我們來看看那個決議到底是怎樣……"],["黃委員國昌：來看看，好。第二個問題，針對目前在國家風景區內烏山頭水庫設置光電板要不要環評這件事情我上次請教環境部部長，主席，不好意思，這個問題問完我就下來了，然後環境部部長說什麼？環境部部長說現在是不用環評，未來要不要環評他們在考慮。結果我逼問了半天以後，他把問題推給誰？他把問題推給經濟部能源署，他的意思是說，立法委員不要一直去問環境部，環境部也很無奈，裡面有個非常重要的目的事業主管機關，他們可以不准、他們可以卡著，但是他們一直要推，現在鍋全部給環境部背，那天部長在備詢的時候看起來表情也是很無奈。那我沒有辦法，不能強人所難嘛！所以我現在只能回來問經濟部，經濟部水利署贊不贊成未來水面型的光電場納入環評？"],["龔部長明鑫：所有的光電或者是綠能產業的推動是整個行政院、甚至於全國在環境上的目標……"],["黃委員國昌：是，沒錯，所以我才不要一人一把號嘛！"],["龔部長明鑫：不會是只有我們的目標而已。"],["黃委員國昌：對，所以我問了環境部，環境部不敢答，他要我問經濟部，所以我今天站在這邊請教部長嘛！"],["龔部長明鑫：所以我們要釐清的就是這個疑慮，如果有這個疑慮的話，我們就先暫緩，先把它釐清。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有，我的問題是你贊不贊成把它納入環評？納入環評才知道有沒有辦法去消除疑慮，不是嗎？現在我問的問題非常單純，現在水面型的光電不用環評，而現在的政策評估在考慮要把它納入環評，經濟部的立場贊不贊成？"],["龔部長明鑫：是不是我們討論後再回復……"],["主席：謝謝，因為這個問題現在已經引發了社會的關注，這個問題我們請相關單位，包含經濟部跟環境部，因為今天環境部次長也有到，將這個問題作為你們要慎重討論的一個議題，好不好？"],["黃委員國昌：可以嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：好。"],["黃委員國昌：可以，好，謝謝主席的裁示，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝部長、謝謝黃國昌委員。","現在請鍾佳濱委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-2","speakers":["陳亭妃","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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