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麻煩請部長謝謝好 又請施部長委員好部長好 我們現在在討論這個食安問題嘛在前政府啦 蔡總統時期一直強調食安五環可以確保大家的食安沒有問題但很顯然喔 這個事件就是獨大腸事件它是從源頭管理就出現問題"},{"start":34.404,"end":53.592,"text":"剛剛我有看到包括執政黨立委都非常不滿譬如說之前因為今天沒有環境部啦但是環境部那個時候也是跟大家講說食安五環的第一環源頭管理要一些化學添加物他都要管理沒錯吧所以積極遊說大家成立讀畫局"},{"start":55.137,"end":68.623,"text":"而且還要花錢去建置化學雲就是說那個如果有相關的化學的東西要登錄然後如果他的流向是比較不正當的地方 而不是不正當啦是這個讀大長時間有做"},{"start":78.615,"end":92.294,"text":"跟委員說明剛好這個雙氧水H2O2沒有在化學雲應登錄的項目沒有所以那時候化學雲在建置的時候沒有思考到工業用雙氧水會拿去洗大廠"},{"start":93.939,"end":108.853,"text":"沒有思考到這件事情當時候沒有當時候沒有那工業用雙氧水有沒有可能也是去洗別的東西有沒有可能除了洗大腸之外有沒有可能洗其他食品造成也是一樣毒食品的狀況有沒有可能"},{"start":111.231,"end":126.662,"text":"就是這個如果是食用食品級的H2O2的雙氧水是可以做我是說工業用啦我是說因為它食品級可以用就有可能被混進去用啦所以工業我們才會說納入那個"},{"start":127.583,"end":145.542,"text":"部長因為今天環境部沒來啦我跟你請教一下你覺得工業用涮氧水應不應該被納入化學雲的應該要把它應該那為什麼之前政府講的好像源頭管理多厲害啊食安靠政府啊有政府就沒問題啦結果連一個工業用涮氧水當時在建置化學雲的時候都想不到"},{"start":147.369,"end":160.466,"text":"跟委員報當時候在考量哪些要納入的時候他有考慮到第一個是他的那個風險程度啦他的毒性啦他顯然就判斷是準嘛如果今天如果那時候講那麼準的話我們今天也不用討論這個題目了嘛"},{"start":162.182,"end":191.045,"text":"所以今天沒有環境部因為但是食安主責單位還是衛福部是不是可以請衛福部跟環境部講清楚那個時候建制化學研究所講得那麼厲害然後結果連什麼該納入什麼不該納入都有漏掉的這個國人會覺得很訝異啊特別報告一下因為雙氧水H2O2它其實經過時間之後它其實就變水了所以它本身的毒性當初的想法它是毒性低的"},{"start":191.906,"end":195.916,"text":"所以相較以前的塑化劑相較以前的毒澱粉的"},{"start":197.253,"end":221.383,"text":"所以你覺得不用納入嗎所以署長覺得不用納入是不是當初是這樣子的想法所以你就不用再講當初了嘛我們現在就已經我們現在就是在討論這個毒大腸事件你還在跟我講當初部長剛剛都說應該納入了所以你覺得不該納入嗎所以我們現在覺得他應該需要我現在只是講說會不會你當初認為風險比較低的東西其實他的風險比你想像的高嘛"},{"start":222.759,"end":239.727,"text":"工業用雙氧水就是嘛就是它的用途多啦對用途多嘛所以它就有可能變成風險高的東西所以我是說請衛福部跟環境部建議好不好就是說重新再去思考一下哪一些化學添加物應該要被納入的就是從之前認為風險比較低現在發現從這個事件"},{"start":244.309,"end":267.243,"text":"未來可以把它納入了 你們跟他們建議一下從食安的角度嘛 好不好 第二個跟文報我們會去盤點 這些化學添加物哪些是還同時有工業用的 我們一起做盤點一起做盤點啊 好不好 讓那個化學雲建制的有用嘛 好不好第二個喔 這個應該就是衛福部的業務啦就是有一個 你們有一個登錄平台叫做非登不可嘛"},{"start":268.686,"end":295.104,"text":"我們去查了一下這家屏東百貨公司好像飛燈不可也沒有他的資料對他沒有登錄那你們當初在宣傳飛燈不可的時候還拍影片啊還做一大堆宣傳說103年12月31號以前沒有登錄的人業者是不可以營業的而且在宣傳的時候嚴格到什麼地步連那個送外賣的都要登錄啊結果一個做大廠"},{"start":296.812,"end":312.677,"text":"做這麼多的不用登錄為什麼所以這個違法沒有登錄我們就給他重罰因為我們這個要求就是要去登錄那你故意違法漠視這個法律規定這已經有一段時間了所以我們才予以重罰所以前面的源頭都出問題嘛"},{"start":314.147,"end":332.855,"text":"你沒有辦法從源頭這個角度去處理去把食安的問題把它防避啊不管是化學雲啊飛燈不可你現在是事後罰嘛但是飛燈不可應該是屬於源頭管理嘛對不對那所以如果源頭出問題那衛福部應該要怎麼解決勒"},{"start":334.882,"end":349.697,"text":"這個還是要強制去做 我就事後把事後把大家的那個大腸都吃下去了而且這一次那個大腸事件其實有賴很多下游業者自己自發性的跳出來講了比如說像阿周麵線他是自己第一時間跳出來講嘛所以他有進嘛對不對"},{"start":350.498,"end":366.758,"text":"那如果他沒有一開跳出來講等到衛福部或地方衛生局去查查查然後他又沒有登錄沒有登錄會增加查的時間嘛所以很可能如果不是業者自發性有良心的業者自己出來的話吃到肚子裡面的更多啦所以這也是一個很大的漏洞啊"},{"start":368.187,"end":383.198,"text":"對 所以部長要怎麼解決這個我們會去加強這個登錄還有上下游的串聯來讓我們掌握住哪個地方的環節可能要怎麼加強上下游串聯前後 就是你一定有"},{"start":383.858,"end":403.252,"text":"下游嘛下游你要去核對說那你買的貨源是不是合法有登錄的來源這些是整個上下游要串聯起來這個是我們現在在做為什麼要讓他這個通通上平台那麼從產至銷通通要一條龍把它串起來就是這樣"},{"start":404.773,"end":428.974,"text":"好那部長你們應該會提一個檢討報告出來吧因為今天大家也問了很多嘛那顯然有一些只是比較抽象概念沒有具體的做法那是不是會有一個比較具體的做法對來跟那個至少一個報告給大家參考一下從這個案件呢從這個案件我們會做一些內部的檢討還有哪一些環節可以再強化的這樣"},{"start":429.714,"end":444.602,"text":"所以你也覺得食安五環有問題嗎還是有強化的作業上有很大的問題啦是之前吹噓的太厲害了啦好啦再來喔我跟你問一下那個缺藥的問題因為現在有很多藥都退出台灣了嘛"},{"start":445.7,"end":471.892,"text":"那魏福布的態度是覺得影響不大因為有很多替代性的用藥是吧跟委員報告我們現在健保供應的藥品是一萬四千多項那這裡面這一次呢今年登錄先來通報說他打算在六個月間會這個停止提供的大概這四十七個項目這個我都知道這個新聞都有報啦你們也都有講過我的問題是說這裡面都是有"},{"start":472.892,"end":497.808,"text":"有学名药的因为福布讲的是说因为有学名药或者是替代所以影响不大这个全世界大概都是这个趋势实际上我们就听有些医生反映例如说像化痰药气疏痰其实它退出市场其实很多病人很多人在反映这个药那当然你说有替代药但问题是好像有人用了替代药效果没有气疏痰那么"},{"start":498.928,"end":516.033,"text":"以這個藥這個Visobon來講它是印尼廠那是因為這個代理商跟這個印尼廠的合約上出問題那是不是因為你價格砍到他不敷成本所以印尼廠商都不願意做所以他現在尋求另外一個所以實際上是跟藥價還是有關嘛"},{"start":518.274,"end":533.442,"text":"那我是觉得如果是药架我们都可以来调整因为你们在那个药哪一些药本来是自费药要纳入健保药这一块我是听很多医生在讲有时候健保署就管得太宽了有些药"},{"start":534.602,"end":562.651,"text":"有些病人他就是願意自費去做因為他比較好願意自費但是硬要把那個自費藥變成健保藥然後又砍藥價人家就退出去變得原本要自費都用不到其實這是一個問題第二個是像有一些藥如果你要把它砍到價格夫夫成本那人家當然只有退出但是你講的又是說那沒有關係退出就退出我們有全民藥我們有替代藥品可是使用的狀況就是不如原廠的藥來得好最後受害的還是病人"},{"start":563.801,"end":589.138,"text":"不過我覺得在處理這個藥價的部分你要考量的點很多啦因為藥品不是一般的產品藥品是方方面面都要考量啦這個確實像委員說的這個需要考量的層面很廣所以到底是不是給予這個所謂的病人自費的差額負擔就可以解決這個問題我們會再更審慎的去評估好 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝部長請問"},{"start":593.465,"end":593.486,"text":"謝謝葉委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1151,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（13時9分）主席好，麻煩請部長，謝謝。"],["主席：好，有請石部長。"],["石部長崇良：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：部長好。我們現在在討論食安問題，在前政府蔡總統時期，一直強調食安五環可以確保大家的食安沒有問題，但很顯然這個毒大腸事件，它是從源頭管理就出現問題，剛剛我有看到包括執政黨立委都非常不滿。因為今天沒有環境部，但是環境部那個時候也是跟大家說食安五環的第一環源頭管理，一些化學添加物它都要管理，沒錯吧？所以積極遊說大家成立毒化局，而且還要花錢去建置化學雲，如果有相關化學的東西要登錄，但是它的流向是不應該去的地方，譬如食品業者，應該就可以立刻勾稽出來，這是源頭管理嘛？"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["葉委員元之：那這源頭有做到嗎？在這一次毒大腸的事件有做到嗎？"],["石部長崇良：跟委員說明，剛好這個雙氧水H2O2沒有在化學雲應登錄的項目。"],["葉委員元之：沒有？所以那時候化學雲在建置的時候，沒有思考到工業用雙氧水會拿去洗大腸？"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["葉委員元之：沒有思考到這件事情？"],["石部長崇良：當時候沒有。"],["葉委員元之：當時候沒有？"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["葉委員元之：工業用雙氧水有沒有可能也去洗別的東西？有沒有可能？除了洗大腸之外，有沒有可能洗其他食品？也是一樣造成毒食品的狀況，有沒有可能？"],["石部長崇良：如果是食品級的H2O2雙氧水，是可以做……"],["葉委員元之：我說工業用啦！"],["石部長崇良：對，我是說因為食品級可以用，就有可能被混進去用啦！所以我們才會說要納入化學雲。"],["葉委員元之：部長，因為今天環境部沒來，我跟你請教一下，你覺得工業用雙氧水應不應該被納入化學雲？"],["石部長崇良：應該要把它納入。"],["葉委員元之：應該？那為什麼之前政府講的好像源頭管理多厲害，食安靠政府、有政府就沒問題，結果連一個工業用雙氧水在當時建置化學雲的時候都想不到？"],["石部長崇良：跟委員報告，當時在考量哪些要納入的時候，有考慮到第一個是它的風險程度、它的毒性等等，所以那時候沒有……"],["葉委員元之：顯然就是判斷失準嘛！如果那時候講得那麼準的話，我們今天也不用討論這個題目了嘛！今天沒有環境部，是因為食安主責單位還是衛福部，是不是可以請衛福部跟環境部講清楚，建置化學雲的時候講得那麼厲害，結果連什麼該納入、什麼不該納入都有漏掉的，這個國人會覺得很訝異啊！"],["姜署長志剛：特別報告一下，因為雙氧水H2O2其實時間經過之後就變成水了，所以它本身的毒性在當初的想法是低的，相較以前的塑化劑、相較以前的毒澱粉。"],["葉委員元之：所以你覺得不用納入嗎？"],["姜署長志剛：當初、當初！"],["葉委員元之：所以署長覺得不用納入是不是？"],["姜署長志剛：當初是這樣子的想法。"],["葉委員元之：所以就不用再講當初了嘛！我們現在就在討論毒大腸事件，你還在跟我講當初，部長剛剛都說應該納入了。"],["姜署長志剛：所以現在我們就……"],["葉委員元之：所以你覺得不該納入嗎？"],["姜署長志剛：所以我們現在覺得應該需要。"],["葉委員元之：那就不用再講了嘛！我現在只是說會不會你當初認為風險比較低的東西，其實它的風險比你想像的高，工業用雙氧水就是嘛！"],["石部長崇良：就是它的用途多啦！"],["葉委員元之：對，用途多嘛！所以它就有可能變成風險高的東西，所以我是說請衛福部跟環境部建議，好不好？就是重新再去思考一下，哪一些化學添加物應該要被納入……"],["許主任輔：對，我們會有很多的盤點。"],["葉委員元之：就是從之前認為風險比較低，現在從這個事件發現未來可以把它納入，你們跟他們建議一下，從食安的角度嘛！好不好？第二個……"],["石部長崇良：是。跟委員報告，我們會去盤點這些化學添加物，哪些同時是還有工業用的，我們一起做盤點。"],["葉委員元之：一起做盤點，讓化學雲建置得有效用嘛！好不好？第二個應該就是衛福部的業務，你們有一個登錄平臺叫做「非登不可」。"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["葉委員元之：我們去查了一下這家屏東百威公司，好像「非登不可」也沒有它的資料。"],["石部長崇良：對，它沒有登錄。"],["葉委員元之：你們當初在宣傳「非登不可」的時候還拍影片，還做一大堆宣傳，說103年12月31號以前沒有登錄的業者是不可以營業的，而且在宣傳的時候嚴格到什麼地步，連送外賣的通通都要登錄，結果一個做大腸做這麼多的不用登錄，是為什麼？"],["石部長崇良：所以這個違法沒有登錄，我們就給它重罰。"],["葉委員元之：違法……"],["石部長崇良：因為我們這個要求就是要去登錄，那你故意違法，漠視這個法律規定，已經有一段時間了，所以我們才予以重罰。"],["葉委員元之：是啊！所以前面的源頭都出問題嘛！你沒有辦法從源頭這個角度去把食安的問題加以防弊，不管是化學雲、「非登不可」，你現在是事後罰嘛！"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["葉委員元之：但是「非登不可」應該是屬於源頭管理。"],["石部長崇良：對，是源頭管理，追蹤是有特別需要……"],["葉委員元之：所以如果源頭出問題，那衛福部應該要怎麼解決？"],["石部長崇良：這個還是要強制去做……"],["葉委員元之：你不能說事後罰，事後罰大家把大腸都吃下去了啊！而且這一次的大腸事件，其實有賴很多下游業者自發性地跳出來講，譬如阿忠麵線，他是自己第一時間跳出來說他有進，對不對？"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["葉委員元之：如果他沒有一開始跳出來講，等到衛福部或地方衛生局去查，然後它又沒有登錄，沒有登錄會增加查的時間，所以很可能如果不是業者自發性、有良心的業者自己出來的話，吃到肚子裡面的更多啦！所以這也是一個大漏洞啊！部長要怎麼解決這個問題？"],["石部長崇良：我們會去加強登錄，還有上下游的串聯，讓我們掌握住哪個地方的環節可能……"],["葉委員元之：要怎麼加強上下游的串聯？"],["石部長崇良：就是你一定有下游嘛！下游你要去核對你買的貨源是不是合法、有登錄的來源，整個上下游要串聯起來，這個是我們現在在做的，為什麼要讓它通通上平臺，從產製銷通通要一條龍把它串起來，就是這樣。"],["葉委員元之：部長，你們應該會提一個檢討報告出來吧？"],["石部長崇良：是。"],["葉委員元之：因為今天大家也問很多，顯然有一些只是比較抽象概念，沒有具體的做法，是不是會有一個比較具體的做法？至少有一個報告給大家參考一下。"],["石部長崇良：從這個案件，我們會做一些內部的檢討，還有哪一些環節可以再強化的。"],["葉委員元之：所以你也覺得食安五環有問題嗎？"],["石部長崇良：還是有強化的……作業上……"],["葉委員元之：有很大的問題啦！是之前吹噓得太厲害了啦！再來，我跟你問一下缺藥的問題，因為現在有很多藥都退出臺灣了，衛福部的態度是覺得影響不大，因為有很多替代性的用藥，是吧？"],["石部長崇良：跟委員報告，我們現在健保供應的藥品是一萬四千多項，這裡面這一次今年登錄先來通報，說它打算在6個月間會停止提供的大概在47個項目裡頭……"],["葉委員元之：這個我們都知道，這個新聞都有報，你們也都有講過，我的問題是說……"],["石部長崇良：這裡面都是有學名藥。"],["葉委員元之：衛福部是說因為有學名藥或者是替代的，所以影響不大。"],["石部長崇良：全世界大概都是這個趨勢。"],["葉委員元之：可是實際上我們就有聽一些醫生反映，例如說像化痰藥「氣舒痰」退出市場，其實很多病人在反映這個藥，當然你說有替代藥，但問題是好像有人用了替代藥，效果沒有「氣舒痰」那麼好。"],["石部長崇良：跟委員報告，以這個藥Bisolvon來講，它是印尼廠啦！那是因為代理商跟印尼廠的合約上出問題，並不是價格。"],["葉委員元之：是不是因為你價格砍到它不敷成本，所以印尼廠商都不願意做？"],["石部長崇良：不是，所以它現在尋求另外一個……"],["葉委員元之：對啊！所以實際上這跟藥價還是有關嘛！我是覺得……"],["石部長崇良：如果是藥價，我們都可以來調整。"],["葉委員元之：因為你們哪一些藥本來是自費藥，要納入健保藥這一塊，我是聽很多醫生在講，有時候健保署管得太寬了，有些藥有些病人願意自費去付，因為它比較好，但是你硬要把那個自費藥變成健保藥，然後又砍藥價，人家就退出去，變成原本要自費都用不到，其實這是一個問題。第二個，有一些藥如果你要把它砍到價格不敷成本，那人家當然只有退出，但是你講的又是說那沒有關係，退出就退出，我們有學名藥，我們有替代藥品，可是使用的狀況就是不如原廠的藥來得好，最後受害的還是病人……"],["石部長崇良：跟委員報告，我們對於……"],["葉委員元之：我覺得你在處理藥價的部分，你要考量的點很多啦！因為藥品不是一般的產品，藥品是方方面面都要考量。"],["石部長崇良：這個確實像委員說的，這個需要考量的層面很廣，所以到底是不是給予所謂的病人自費的差額負擔就可以解決這個問題，我們會再更審慎地去評估。"],["葉委員元之：謝謝。"],["主席（劉委員建國）：謝謝，部長請回，謝謝葉委員。","接下來請賴惠員委員、賴惠員委員，賴惠員委員不在。","請楊曜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":260,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王育敏","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","王正旭","盧縣一","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","邱志偉","洪孟楷","謝衣鳯","廖偉翔","劉建國","葉元之","楊曜"],"page_start":189,"meetingDate":["2025-10-13"],"gazette_id":"1148201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長及行政院食品安全辦公室就「重大食安事件處理之檢討與食安稽核人力不足\n問題」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148201_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}