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彭主委我們請彭主委"},{"start":19.446,"end":39.215,"text":"主委早剛剛提到說這兩天國際的變化使得美中的對抗好像有深分的疑慮結果衍生出虛擬貨幣爆倉的事件而且那個爆倉的金額非常的大這個你有什麼看法"},{"start":39.929,"end":64.912,"text":"我想虛擬資產在一開始出現的時候這個就是他非常重要的一個特質波動大這也是後來大家提到穩定幣為什麼出來很重要的原因我想這一次的這些的這個波動這麼大確實是還有就是主要剛才講的爆倉主要是他們做槓桿交易槓桿交易的話這是跌20%假如做4倍的話基本上就全部出場"},{"start":66.053,"end":93.462,"text":"我想這裡提醒就是說反而虛擬資產就有這個特質這也是一個很好的我覺得整個個案出來以後也讓我們體會到這個虛擬資產的交易它具有的不確定性跟風險性你的報告裡面關於這一塊有提到說你們現在正在研議而且向行政院已經提出你們的草案我在這個地方我的想法要跟你分享這件事情要穩健"},{"start":94.468,"end":121.363,"text":"要很注意穩健我們台灣人的民族性賺錢都說自己很行萬一集體賠錢就會找你算帳都算政府的帳你一定要切記我這個講法我以富油價這件事件為例富油價就是他們去玩期貨結果全部都出場對不對到好幾年去金管會門口在那邊抗議了很久"},{"start":123.157,"end":149.31,"text":"你的石油期貨國內基本上這個是一個很冷門的東西那我以那個事件為例不論對錯就再一次印證我這個講法賺錢的人都覺得自己很行不是去感謝別人那但是如果賠了錢而且是集體賠了錢他要找你政府算賬都是你政府害的所以你那個版本你現在可不可以先透露一下你的"},{"start":151.655,"end":168.175,"text":"這個穩健的部分要如何來防止這種事情謝謝委員其實委員剛剛提醒這也是就是因為它是一個具有不確定跟風險的這樣的一個工具或是這樣的市場所以我們更要透過一個專法的架構來做這樣的一個保護我們的投資人"},{"start":169.036,"end":198.574,"text":"因為主要是剛才講這是一個全球不是只有台灣在那個虛擬資產的世界是沒有國界的但是呢我們可以透過一些行政的這樣的一個措施所以透過這個專法我們可以跟我們實體的監理做連結那對於這些在境內交易的這些民眾當然已經在你有跨境能力交易我們是沒有辦法在這邊做做這樣比較全面的管理但是至少這一部分呢我們反而是就是因為這樣我們更應該要有這樣的一個做法"},{"start":199.585,"end":218.162,"text":"那跟穩定幣的做法會不一樣嗎穩定幣其實跟虛擬資產又是另外一個區塊所以以美國來講它的穩定幣背後要有相等價的美金或是美國公債才可以做發行所以是一比一的但是台灣有需要發行嗎"},{"start":219.215,"end":236.572,"text":"其實這是一個很有趣的議題有不同的角度思考當然就以假設國際貨幣清算的角度來看的話其實台幣不是一個國際上面的通用的主流貨幣我想這個當然在這一部分還是以美元或是其他的強勢貨幣為主"},{"start":238.874,"end":262.234,"text":"但是如果他涉及到未來比如說很多人在推測說未來假設RWA成為是一個越來越普遍還有國內的支付的部分那這樣的話我們還是會有這樣的一個本國必別的穩定幣存在的空間那有一個說法說穩定幣通行之後因為就在網路上面很直接就處理了第一個銀行的角色不見了第二個"},{"start":264.96,"end":284.953,"text":"這個是不是以後要打砸的時候困難度會增加這兩個事情其實這一題兩面就是銀行就像假設銀行如果他固守於現在的傳統業務面對未來像這種虛擬金融或是數位金融的挑戰這確實是一個不可知的領域就像剛才講說假設我過去的這個現金做放款"},{"start":285.253,"end":311.987,"text":"那現在如果很多人把它做為一個穩定幣就是變成質押在那邊他在另外一個世界裡面是在用這個法幣的穩定幣在運作的時候確實在銀行如果你還是固守在原有的角色是沒有的但是剛剛文燁提到打詐的部分假設這個未來比如說這個穩定幣或者這個虛擬資產在我們的管控範圍的範圍更大的話我們應該是對打詐應該是更有著力點是喔"},{"start":315.13,"end":335.738,"text":"這個全球的網路上面往來就支付了你你如果對於打詐會你覺得會反而有幫助因為比如說我們現在來講就像我們現在我們對現在虛擬資產服務業者我們禁止的所有的現金交易他就必須要透過我們的法幣帳戶進行交易那我們的KYC就會做到非常的清楚"},{"start":336.078,"end":361.698,"text":"那你剛剛提到的啊有一些人那就透過網路不經過台灣本身內部的一些他就直接跟國外交易了對這是全世界面臨到的問題這要透過國際合作這個確實是不是只有台灣所獨有在網路世界是沒有國界好那剛剛有提到這幾年因為台灣這個科技業的發展蓬勃發展那使得我們的證券交易市場規模不停的擴大現在已經是全世界"},{"start":362.719,"end":390.882,"text":"排名第幾了 第八了嘛已經急進前十了這以台灣的人口量來講是非常不容易那但是證券交易同時就是我們的資本市場也要穩定所以這一年來的IPO的這個狀況你有掌握嗎IPO的話我想主要是詳細的數字我可能沒辦法跟委員說明那個櫃買跟證交所董事長也來請那個櫃買跟交易所過去可以跟委員報告一下去年我們IPO的狀況"},{"start":394.428,"end":416.487,"text":"報告委員 我們今年的IPO的狀況基本上來講的話 交易所這邊創新版加上上市一般版的話 大概40多家左右40多家 然後他的資本額是多少他的資本額 你很難 因為他難以統計喔創新版大概在兩三億"},{"start":419.989,"end":439.331,"text":"上市一般版大概是六七億啦資本額就是要上你們的市六億啊我的意思是說這一些你說IP2有四十幾家在你們交易所嘛那他的資本額跟他的這個所謂的市值因為市值是每天浮動的但是資本額基本上是固定的這應該統計的出來啊"},{"start":441.921,"end":457.641,"text":"我這裡沒有好沒關係那你這時候再補啦那就是也是對我們的市場規模增加的不少40幾家相對於前幾年成績算是不錯啦我們預計今年會超過去年好那繼續加油但是這個其實是走鋼索"},{"start":458.562,"end":472.328,"text":"一方面要讓他上市但是另一方面又要監管你也不能不讓市場規模擴大但是同時上市的時候那個標準的拿捏其實對你們來講是一個很艱難的工作要加油那前董事長在一邊呢各位委員報告我們去年有30家掛牌那今年已經有23家掛牌了"},{"start":483.737,"end":509.155,"text":"所以兩家加起來都跟前幾年比較好很多其實在以前財政部張部長的時代在馬政府執政 張部長用他證所稅的時代之前IPO曾經高達一年一百多家後來當然就是因為那個東西所以急劇就減少了所以我說要加油尤其是台灣的好公司希望留在台灣上市櫃不要讓他跑到外國去"},{"start":510.876,"end":523.044,"text":"有的會選擇去新加坡 選擇去香港這次委員剛我在報告的時候我們大概近期會對外宣布我們的亞洲創新投資平台我們就是打算做這件事好 那兩位董事長先請回座"},{"start":524.156,"end":548.325,"text":"這個最後在剩下一分鐘的時間就是問你問一個問題打炸是我們現在眼前很重要的一個問題但是打炸這個有警示帳戶會衍生管制的帳戶現在的反應就是說現在因為證券交易這麼的熱絡每天的交易這麼大那這些警示帳 衍生的管制帳戶因為你證券交易現在都是用線上交割嘛你不可能拿現金去嘛"},{"start":549.085,"end":576.802,"text":"那他要進他的帳戶要出他的帳戶都變成有困難那這一個反應金管會的看法是怎麼樣啊如何協助解決我想我已經提到就是應該是大概大概幾週前有一個他可能卡到他的那個就是畫布帳戶就是那個交割帳戶那這部分應該是後來我們了解可能是他那個城市所控的問題好那這個我們就很快改善我們也通知所有的銀行把這記取這個教訓不可以再犯"},{"start":577.851,"end":591.103,"text":"因為比如一個例子我自己的帳戶我賣股票我錢要進去你說你把我鎖起來我約焦哥算誰的責任所以說現在他們在鎖空的時候我們要求他們必須要24小時專人服務的電話來負責解決這樣的問題"},{"start":596.423,"end":615.804,"text":"雖然打詐是政府非常重點而且很重要的工作但是我們在執行的過程中能夠減少對民眾的困擾也是一個重要的議題這個確實在比如說在主詐打詐跟比如說一些某一個比率誤判這樣產生的"},{"start":617.105,"end":628.071,"text":"民眾的不便這件事情我們盡量的我們也是請我們的銀行透過各式各樣的方法降低這樣我們一定要取得一個橫頻好 加油謝謝謝謝委員謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":207,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（9時26分）主席，麻煩請金管會彭主委。"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員早。"],["吳委員秉叡：主委早。剛剛提到這兩天的國際變化，使得美中對抗好像有升溫的疑慮，結果衍生出虛擬貨幣爆倉事件，且爆倉的金額非常大，對此你有什麼看法？"],["彭主任委員金隆：虛擬資產在一開始出現時，這就是他非常重要的一個特質──波動大，這也是後來為什麼大家會提到穩定幣會出現的重要原因，我想這一次波動確實很大。至於委員剛剛講到爆倉，主要是他們在做槓桿交易。以槓桿交易來說，像這次跌20%，如果做四倍，基本上就會全部出場！我想這也是在提醒，虛擬資產本來就有這個特質，所以這也是一個很好的……整個個案出來以後，讓我們體會到虛擬資產交易具有的不確定性跟風險性。"],["吳委員秉叡：你的報告裡面關於這一塊有提到，你們現在正在研議，也已經提出草案給行政院？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：我在這裡想跟主委分享想法，這件事情要穩健，而且要很注意穩健，尤其臺灣人的民族性，講到賺錢都說自己很行，但是當萬一集體賠錢時，就會找你算帳，都算政府的帳！你一定要切記我這個講法。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["吳委員秉叡：我以負油價這件事件為例。因為負油價，所以有人去玩期貨，結果後來全部都出場了，對不對？還去金管會門口抗議很久，好幾年了。基本上，石油期貨在國內是一個很冷門的東西，以此事件為例，不論對錯，都再一次印證我的講法：賺錢的人都覺得自己很行，不是去感謝別人；但是當賠了錢，而且是集體賠錢時，他就要找政府算帳，認為都是政府害的！"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員提醒。"],["吳委員秉叡：關於版本，你現在可不可以先透露一下要如何穩健地防止這種事情發生？"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員剛才的提醒，就因為他是一個具有不確定跟風險的工具，甚或是市場，所以我們更要透過專法的架構來保護我們的投資人。剛才也講到，這是全球性的，不是只有臺灣，畢竟在虛擬資產世界是沒有國界的！但我們可以透過一些行政措施、透過專法，可以跟我們的實體監理做連結，對於在境內交易的這些民眾，特別是已經有跨境能力交易者，我們沒有辦法做比較全面的管理，不過我們更要因為這樣而有作法。"],["吳委員秉叡：跟穩定幣的作法會不一樣嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：穩定幣跟虛擬資產比起來，其實又是另外一個區塊，所以我們是……"],["吳委員秉叡：以美國來講，穩定幣的背後要有等價的美金或美國公債才可以發行，所以是1比1，但臺灣有需要發行嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這其實是一個很有趣的議題，有不同的角度思考。假設以國際貨幣清算的角度來看，臺幣不是國際上通用的主流貨幣，所以在這部分大概還是以美元或其他強勢貨幣為主。但如果涉及到未來……很多人推測，未來假設RWA越來越普遍，加上國內支付的部分，這樣的話我們還是會有一個本國幣別的穩定幣存在空間。"],["吳委員秉叡：有一個說法是，穩定幣通行之後，因為就在網路上直接處理了，所以第一個，銀行的角色不見了；第二個，是不是以後打詐的困難度會增加？這兩個事情。"],["彭主任委員金隆：這其實是一體兩面！假設銀行固守於現在的傳統業務，畢竟面對未來的虛擬金融或數位金融的挑戰，這確實是一個不可知的領域。就像剛才所講的，假設我過去以現金做放款，現在如果有很多人將它視為穩定幣來質押，而在另外一個世界卻是用這個法幣、穩定幣在運作時，若銀行還是固守在原有的角色那就是沒有了。","至於剛才委員提到打詐的部分，假設未來我們對穩定幣或虛擬資產的管控範圍更大的話，應該對打詐會更有著力點。"],["吳委員秉叡：是喔？他就在全球的網路上往來支付了，你認為如何會對打詐有幫助？"],["彭主任委員金隆：以現在來講，對於虛擬資產服務業者，我們禁止所有的現金交易，因此就必須要法幣帳戶來進行交易，如此，我們的KYC就會做到非常清楚。"],["吳委員秉叡：你剛剛提到有一些人就透過網路，也不經過臺灣本身內部，就直接跟國外交易了，這樣你管控得到嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，這是全世界所面臨的問題，所以要透過國際合作，確實也不是臺灣所獨有，畢竟網路世界是沒有國界的。"],["吳委員秉叡：這幾年因為臺灣科技業蓬勃發展，使得我們的證券交易市場與規模不停擴大，現在已經是全世界排名第幾了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：第八。"],["吳委員秉叡：已經擠進前十了，以臺灣的人口量來講非常不容易。但在證券交易的同時，我們的資本市場也要穩定，所以這一年來的IPO狀況你有掌握嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：IPO的話，詳細數字我可能沒辦法跟委員說明……"],["吳委員秉叡：請櫃買跟證交所董事長來。"],["彭主任委員金隆：請櫃買跟交易所跟委員報告一下去年我們IPO的狀況。"],["林董事長修銘：報告委員，我們今年IPO的狀況，基本上來講，交易所這邊的創新板加上上市一般板的話，大概是四十多家左右。"],["吳委員秉叡：四十多家？他的資本額是多少？"],["林董事長修銘：資本額很難……因為……"],["吳委員秉叡：難以統計？"],["林董事長修銘：上市一般板資本額大概是六、七億……"],["吳委員秉叡：要上你們的板是六億……"],["林董事長修銘：對。"],["吳委員秉叡：我的意思是……你說IPO有四十幾家在你們交易所？"],["林董事長修銘：今年。"],["吳委員秉叡：他的資本額跟市值，因為市值是每天浮動的，但資本額基本上是固定的，這應該統計得出來。"],["林董事長修銘：我這裡沒有資料，是不是之後……"],["吳委員秉叡：沒關係，你事後再補。"],["林董事長修銘：好。"],["吳委員秉叡：這也讓我們的市場規模增加不少。四十幾家相對於前幾年來說，成績算是不錯。"],["林董事長修銘：我們預計今年會超過去年。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，繼續加油。其實這是在走鋼索，一方面要讓他上市，但另外一方面又要監管，畢竟你不能不讓市場規模擴大。不過在上市的同時，標準的拿捏對你們來講是一個很艱難的工作，所以要加油。"],["林董事長修銘：好，謝謝。"],["吳委員秉叡：簡董事長這邊呢？"],["簡董事長立忠：跟委員報告，我們去年有30家掛牌，至於今年已經有23家掛牌了。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以兩者加起來都跟前幾年比好很多。其實以前在馬政府執政時，財政部張部長課徵證所稅時代前，IPO曾經一年高達一百多家，後來當然就是因為課徵那個東西就急遽減少了，所以我才說要加油！尤其是臺灣的好公司希望能留在臺灣上市櫃，不要讓他跑到外國去，有的會選擇去新加坡、選擇去香港啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員，剛剛我有報告，我們大概在近期會對外宣布我們的亞洲創新投資平臺，就是打算做這件事。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，兩位董事長先請回座。","最後剩下一分多鐘的時間，向您問一個問題，打詐是我們現在眼前很重要的一個問題，但是打詐的警示帳戶會衍生管制帳戶……"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，衍生帳戶。"],["吳委員秉叡：現在的反映就是說，因為證券交易這麼的熱絡，每天的交易額這麼大，這些衍生的管制帳戶，因為證券交易現在都是用線上交割，不可能拿現金去，他要進他的帳戶或出他的帳戶都變成有困難，對於這個反映，金管會的看法是怎麼樣？如何協助解決？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想委員提到的應該是大概幾週前有一個人可能卡到他的交割帳戶，這個部分後來我們了解可能是程式鎖控的問題，這個我們就很快改善，我們也通知所有的銀行記取這個教訓，不可以再犯。"],["吳委員秉叡：對，舉一個例子，我自己的帳戶，我買股票時錢要進去，但你把我鎖起來，那我違約交割要算誰的責任？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，所以現在他們在鎖控的時候，我們要求他們必須要有24小時專人服務電話負責解決這樣的問題。"],["吳委員秉叡：雖然打詐是政府的重點，而且很重要的工作，但是我們在執行的過程中要能夠減少對民眾的困擾跟傷害，也是一個重要的議題。"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然、當然，這個確實，比如在阻詐、打詐跟某一個比率誤判所產生讓民眾感覺不便，這件事情我們會儘量，我們也是請銀行透過各式各樣的方法去降低這樣的情況，我們一定要取得一個衡平。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，加油，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員。","接下來請賴士葆委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":102,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-2","speakers":["李坤城","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","林思銘","顏寬恒","鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","李彥秀","王世堅","葛如鈞","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","林楚茵","邱志偉","陳玉珍","羅明才"],"page_start":41,"meetingDate":["2025-10-13"],"gazette_id":"1148401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148401_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相\n關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集\n中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148401_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}