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謝謝我們橫院長有請那個卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":22.87,"end":48.85,"text":"林委員好 院長好 院長我想我首先呢針對我們這個地方性補助辦法的修正這題先來就教院長院長我們在今年8月29號行政院公布修正中央對直轄市及縣市政府補助辦法主計總署對外說這只是配合新版的財化法沒有刪除補助只是改變補助方式"},{"start":50.08,"end":75.714,"text":"但是院長真的是這樣嗎我們來看一下地方政府的反應是什麼第一個反應就是這根本是變相的三前變相的卡地方這次的修正把我們一般性的補儲款的範圍改成是具有經常性普及性基本建設或者是維運的一個性質財政均衡等事項"},{"start":77.016,"end":82.271,"text":"聽起來是冠冕堂皇但實際上我們來看代表的是什麼"},{"start":83.815,"end":102.526,"text":"這代表說我們地方要透過申請透過審查 透過評比能不能拿到這個補助什麼時候拿到 金額是多少全部變成中央說了算我想院長你一直搖頭我待會給你這個說明的機會給你答辯的機會院長這樣的改變"},{"start":108.57,"end":131.631,"text":"地方的一般性的補助款變成非常不確定嚴重的影響地方年度預算的一個編列尤其是社福、教育、交通等預算的一個編列被壓縮得很嚴重造成他們非常大的困擾所以以前我們稱為一般性補助現在根本變成好像地方要跟中央要飯"},{"start":133.152,"end":160.112,"text":"所以這已經不是支持地方建設這是變相要讓地方看中央的臉色本席以新竹縣為例目前新竹縣在全國的財力分級是第三級但這次修法以後主計總署說新竹縣會一口氣升級成為第一級表面上我們看起來升級好像很光榮但實際上升級卻是被懲罰"},{"start":161.613,"end":182.239,"text":"代表地方自籌財源的比例要從30%變成50%中央的補助比例則從70%降為50%我們講白了 也就是中央少給 地方自己要多掏院長 這不是三補助 什麼才是三補助"},{"start":183.928,"end":207.658,"text":"所以院長我希望院長深刻體會我們地方的財政其實已經捉襟見肘了這樣的做法不只是錯誤而是中央只想集錢又集權卻對地方自治造成極大的傷害與損害更是對地方建設的慢性掐喉更離譜的是我們新竹縣為什麼會應備升級"},{"start":210.542,"end":225.832,"text":"這個我們非常不理解因為新修正的第四條偷偷改了財力集資的計算方式把未來才會拿到的統籌分配稅款硬是加進過去三年的這樣的一個計算方式"},{"start":226.693,"end":243.568,"text":"院長我不懂這是什麼邏輯主席長大概跟我說明一下因為你111年到113年我們拿到就是稅款就是統籌分配稅款結果你確保115年才會增加的這個稅款提前把它灌進去"},{"start":244.429,"end":265.421,"text":"所以這是什麼樣的一個計算方式根本是低溝道太多了硬湊數的一個計算方式所以地方實際上根本沒拿到錢賬上卻被算成好像是很有錢行政院可不可以這個折成主計總署修正這樣錯誤的升級模式請院長"},{"start":266.294,"end":284.304,"text":"我請主席講很清楚的您說的這三四個問題都有很正面的答覆是 我也跟委員報告一般性補助款還有計畫性補助款兩者都是在均衡縣市它一個經濟的一個項目那這兩個的部分因為"},{"start":284.924,"end":307.037,"text":"它裡面大部分都是屬於縣市應辦的一個事項那以中央政府來講今年在籌編總預算的時候它遭遇很大的困難因為它籌編不出來因為它如果沒有減減這些項目它就沒有辦法編所以我們今年舉債是三千億在總預算的部分市長我打算你一下我想我剛才的問題是請問你新竹縣為什麼從三級"},{"start":312,"end":333.016,"text":"被變成一級 你是怎麼把它湊出來的是 那我們以115年度我們拿出就是分配出4165億的一個統籌分配稅款新竹縣拿到的是最多的所以這個部分它再佔財力它以115年度獲得的一個統籌分配稅款來分級它是第一級"},{"start":333.776,"end":356.314,"text":"新竹縣是第一級所以我們是以財力來獲得到的一個財源來做排序但是新竹縣的統籌分配稅款依照我過去歷次的這個質詢新竹縣都是排名非常後面的統籌分配稅款非常後面一般性補助也是很少"},{"start":356.914,"end":373.128,"text":"沒有沒有 他現在新的一個財源分配之後他獲得的一個財源非常多所以你是依照新的財源分配但是新的財源分配要100新的財務法是115年才可以拿到這個錢啊所以你怎麼會把他一下子從三級升到一級呢"},{"start":375.45,"end":396.188,"text":"那要115年才能拿到這個權所以我們這個是針對115年的一個做分配但是你現在你跟我講說為什麼要把它升其實因為你要去把它計算它過去三年它的分配數以過去三年還要加上115年的圈數它的這個分配的數是非常的少"},{"start":397.403,"end":411.121,"text":"不是 它115事實上是增加了170幾億的話因為這個造成我剛才一直講的就變成我們的未來爭取到的一般性補助款我們的自籌款要增加到50%"},{"start":413.443,"end":421.827,"text":"22縣市全部同一基礎 沒有一個是例外的所以同一基礎去轉的部分 轉出來再做排序委員 您應該看到這個數字新竹市也增加177億彰化只增加175億彰化的人口多那麼多"},{"start":430.615,"end":450.984,"text":"所以從這個算起來看的話新竹縣增加的比例是很大的我想我們的公視很清但這個我認為是不均衡統籌分配稅款它的一個分配的一個比例按照相關的我們這次修的一個修法的一個它的一個整個它的一個補助的各項的一個指標都非常清楚"},{"start":452.106,"end":477.248,"text":"我現在是說為什麼我們會從三級變成一級因為增加的比較多你不能一年來算這是算明年的 明年的期次其實這個算是邏輯錯誤我想我們這個問題先談到這裡但是我還是希望那個院長我們可以好好的討論一個合理的財政收入發動法因為這樣子的話真的造成縣市政府很大的影響第二個問題我要請問這個院長"},{"start":481.661,"end":486.937,"text":"有關於台大竹北校地閒置迄今已二十幾年了院長你有到過竹北嗎"},{"start":489.008,"end":510.726,"text":"交流道旁邊有一塊台大本來要建校的校地我似乎有一次車子有經過那一塊校地我們當時撥用給台大總共有22公頃從民國89年到現在現在只有一個必增館在那邊做一個推廣教育的中心其他的全部都閒置"},{"start":512.027,"end":521.976,"text":"這個荒煙漫草非常可惜所以新竹人等了已經超過20年了就是說珠北這塊台大校地22.46公頃"},{"start":525.066,"end":551.502,"text":"到現在行政院核准撥用給台大已經24年了當年講得非常漂亮喔就是台大要設分校要發展高等教育要帶動整個新竹的科技產業結果呢20幾年過去了只蓋了一棟我剛才講的必增館作為在職進修用的根本不是分校所以這樣叫做建設高等教育嗎"},{"start":553.043,"end":579.499,"text":"這樣對得起當年台大對新竹縣民的一個承諾嗎我想我從議員一路到現在當立委這塊地我看了快二十幾年了地方的反彈聲音也非常的大台大就一直讓它這樣荒蕪著非常可惜地方人士每次經過都在問我說委員這塊地到底要控制到什麼時候"},{"start":581.141,"end":602.398,"text":"大家都很惋惜 大家都覺得很傷感淡黃區的土地非常棒的一塊土地到現在就一直被閒置著縣長 我想您可能不太了解我們部長不要了解 但是我還是要講台大說這塊地是有償取得"},{"start":603.427,"end":632.828,"text":"但是我們依照土地法第26條的規定各級政府機關因為興辦公共事業需用公有土地時應商同該管直轄或縣市政府懲請行政院核准撥用那麼教育部在113年有回文給本席的書面報告部長當時你也跟我講說新竹縣政府它是在89年6月5號含附同意國立臺灣大學有償撥用新竹縣的竹北市大學段"},{"start":633.808,"end":652.137,"text":"1號土地面積22.08575公頃國立臺灣大學在89年8月15日函請教育部轉請行政院同意新竹縣竹北市大學段1D號土地有償撥用案經行政院於89年9月18日核准此案有償撥用"},{"start":653.738,"end":680.769,"text":"所以我想請教院長如果是真的有償撥用這塊土地因為我們一直強調是有償撥用如果是有償撥用那金額是多少有沒有付款的相關證明教育部有沒有先請部長回答有沒有付款的證明因為我們是有償撥用 要他有償撥用台大你要付費的喔 不是免費送你的喔"},{"start":683.028,"end":701.537,"text":"過去我針對台大在感謝當然我想新竹縣當時先生我是希望說借重台大的科研能量能夠協助新竹縣的一個發展現正的一個發展我想這應該可以肯定"},{"start":702.017,"end":717.246,"text":"但我也同時也認為說如果台大本身它在整個這個科研能量或者學校的發展它已經沒有辦法再有一個更積極的去協助新竹縣的發展我也建議新竹縣可以考慮把它收回"},{"start":717.966,"end":741.555,"text":"哇 謝謝我第一次聽到部長這麼有魄力的講這個話其實部長我剛一直強調就是說有因為我們現在想說台大要請他歸還這塊土地到底有什麼法律依據嗎這個很重要嘛那當時講的就是有償撥用那你台大確實有沒有給錢新竹縣政府這就是我們大家一個疑慮因為地方傳說一塊錢撥用一塊錢"},{"start":745.377,"end":770.234,"text":"這這麼貴的土地現在價值可能七八百億喔甚至到九百億喔當時一塊錢撥用有可能嗎教育部有去了解嗎所以這個天方夜譚不可能就是我們講要有償撥用什麼一塊錢送你不可能的事情據我去了解根本台大沒有付半毛錢所以我請教育部去請教台大你當時的付款證明可不可以拿出來"},{"start":771.26,"end":799.985,"text":"可不可以請部長你會後給我我們會後來跟台大這一個了解所以我想這個案子真的到目前為止如果部長剛才講的請台大如果你真的沒有能力去新辦去建設分校的話協助新竹縣政府作為相當一個科學教育的使用的話我們要讓地勁其力你就把這塊土地還給新竹縣政府"},{"start":800.945,"end":815.642,"text":"因為我為什麼一直強調這個當初我們跟台大拜託請他撥出三到五公頃的土地給新竹縣政府新辦高中因為竹北的高中能量不足嘛台大拒絕了"},{"start":816.943,"end":836.972,"text":"所以當時我就覺得奇怪台大怎麼會採得這麼硬22公頃請你撥個3到5公頃你都不願意這樣子會讓我們覺得說台大真的是不用半毛錢取得這塊土地你卻不願意讓新竹縣來我們當時講說新建台大附中"},{"start":838.389,"end":852.523,"text":"這麼好的一個使用方式台大拒絕了我當時就是覺得非常的遺憾如果陳如剛才部長講的台大你真的沒有能力你現在一直想說要跟校友募款來蓋這個學校但是現在據我所知"},{"start":853.464,"end":882.385,"text":"台大最近的說法是怎麼講台大最近說他竹北分部將規劃以次世代的半導體AI人工智慧 智慧醫療三大核心領域技術成立台灣科技中心產業聚落但院長院長你應該知道這個計畫永遠跟不上變化這個都是歸宿在進行台大已經給我們很多次承諾給新竹縣政府很多次承諾沒有一次有完成的"},{"start":883.402,"end":905.854,"text":"所以在這種情況下我要特別提醒院長現在大家都希望我們的輝達能夠進駐各縣市政府都在爭取我假設一個前提如果說行光人壽與台北市政府沒有辦法達成合一解除契約的協議台大這塊校地有22公頃"},{"start":907.728,"end":932.008,"text":"我們這塊土地它是跟竹北的AI科技園區相鄰近又跟竹科又非常近我們又有高等學府我們有很棒的科技人才我們的交大 清大 還有明星科大培育出非常多的科技人才所以這塊土地非常適合輝達來這邊設立亞洲的一個全球總部"},{"start":933.383,"end":957.504,"text":"這麼好的一個地方所以我是拜託院長可不可以跟輝達講一下或者跟台大講一下也跟台大講一下去看一下這塊土地地理條件非常好的一個土地到新竹縣我幫新竹縣來請命爭取這一塊輝達到新竹縣來設立亞洲總部可不可以 院長"},{"start":958.344,"end":980.92,"text":"國際大廠選擇他的設廠或是設他的營運中心他都有一定的程序跟標準在選擇那現在他跟台北市政陷入一個跟星光人壽的合約當中假設破局的話我是覺得新竹縣已經準備好了先跟蔣市長談一下如果他破局的話就往這裡來送你承諾可以吧"},{"start":982,"end":1003.365,"text":"當然要尊重產業但是最終的就是要把輝達這個國際大廠留在台灣這是無可取代的一個目標我們格局放大一點 不僅僅輝達如果世界大廠要因為現在我們希望我們這個台灣成為亞洲的資產中心所以這塊土地都可以做很好的利用"},{"start":1004.437,"end":1027.455,"text":"所以台大如果真的沒有辦法去建設分校把這塊土地真的去育成新竹縣做更好的一個發揮利用好 那我們雙頭您跟蔣事長談一下那部長我們跟台大校長談一下到底這個地方怎麼用或許國科會也要進來談一下未來整個園區該怎麼進行怎麼樣對新竹有利 怎麼樣對台灣有利我們用方式方向來想"},{"start":1029.176,"end":1043.542,"text":"接下來就新竹縣的兩個產業園區請縣長一定也要儘速的來推動我們新竹是台灣科技的心臟心臟不能停擺不能被行政作業來緩慢耽誤"},{"start":1044.722,"end":1064.067,"text":"所以有關於新竹縣楊縣長的兩支箭一個是竹科三期的一個計畫一個是台灣知識經濟園區這兩個園區可以說是打造桃竹苗大細股狼帶的重要產業基地也是我們新竹產業升級的雙引擎"},{"start":1065.487,"end":1085.893,"text":"卻因為省醫的行政程序冗長 不會溝通不利中央缺乏魄力導致進度嚴重落後讓我們地方民眾與產業界焦慮萬分院長 科學園區三期規劃超過92公頃的產業用地原本定位為竹科的延伸擴充區"},{"start":1086.913,"end":1110.341,"text":"要承接半導體 AI晶片 智慧製造 車用電子等高端產業但是我們地方已經等了20多年用地變更 環評審查 交通配套 移載的延旦廠商一直苦等不到這塊土地地方發展被綁手綁腳所以請問院長 科學區三期的徵收目前內政部國土署審議的進度為何"},{"start":1112.674,"end":1116.218,"text":"內政部可不可以 部長現在審議進度到哪裡 請部長請內政部長備訓"},{"start":1121.633,"end":1144.118,"text":"跟委員說明桃竹苗大矽谷是我們進度最快的一個六大產業生活區我們一定會按照速度甚至加速才能完成因為它必須跟大南方新矽谷兩個合成一個台灣帶動的雙引擎動作來發展對 沒錯 院長講的沒錯因為現在就是因為有桃竹苗大矽谷狼帶的一個打造所以我才關心說現在它的進度到哪裡"},{"start":1144.912,"end":1160.496,"text":"因為據我所知已經經過那個內政部現在審議的也差不多了現在就等那個大會的一個審議市政府說明一下好像也有縣政府該做一些行政上的做法我比較關心的是什麼時候會完成它的時程因為等太久了"},{"start":1161.233,"end":1185.601,"text":"報告委員現在我們所瞭解是縣政府還在辦理可行性評估作業預計今年年底完成是 今年年底完成對 相關的道路工程大概要補助到2.87億元這個大概縣政府也瞭解但是後續仍然有環境影響評估的作業還沒有到內政部的國土署來正式提出申請是"},{"start":1186.454,"end":1190.583,"text":"所以還有兩個程序還沒有完成現政府的程序要加快"},{"start":1192.295,"end":1218.172,"text":"一個是縣政府要辦理可行性的評估作業但是他們已經告訴我們今年年底完成完成之後還有一個環境影響評估的綜合規劃作業這個還沒有完成但是我們已經有做這個超前赴水就是說完成相關程序之後他的道路會用生活圈的道路這個到底要不做環境影響評估我記得我在這個都審會的小組的時候我有參與"},{"start":1221.032,"end":1233.248,"text":"這塊土地的驅散徵收不用進行環評沒有 環評你現在又回到要環評喔不是 它環境影響評估的綜合規劃作業還沒有向國土署正式提出申請"},{"start":1239.813,"end":1262.442,"text":"在整個小組會議中好像對這一塊都達成共識不用提出環境影響評估因為有很多人提出報告委員 這個因為很大超過30公頃就要有送到環境部做環境影響評估這個是一定要的這塊現在又要回到我想因為我得到的資訊是不用因為在整個開會的過程中"},{"start":1262.962,"end":1282.589,"text":"土地面積超過10公頃以上就要了我想這部分再請你們用書面的給我做很詳細的一個答覆另外就是有關於台灣知識經濟園區我想竹北是全國人口成長最快的城市同時也是AI產業與國際企業最關注的據點"},{"start":1283.889,"end":1301.549,"text":"竹北的台資園區這塊土地大概也我們區段徵收大概規劃也有400多公頃所以這個園區它不論地理條件產業的連結人才的聚集度都是我們目前來講我個人覺得是全台灣最佳的選擇"},{"start":1302.39,"end":1320.298,"text":"因為它就鄰近高鐵而且跟我們現在的生物醫學園區相鄰整個土地的規劃可以說是非常適合作為我們產業的聚落以及我們打造一個非常宜居的聚落"},{"start":1321.298,"end":1346.894,"text":"所以我在此也是要請內政部加速審議這個台灣知識經濟園區的審議目前他的進度到哪裡了他的進度現在到哪裡了現在都已經都省會小組在審查中啊表示審查是有進度的 因為都省會的小組但是一直一直 審查已經歷經好幾次了請經濟部回答 謝謝"},{"start":1349.057,"end":1370.091,"text":"包委員因為這個案子因為涉及到土地徵收的問題所以必須要按照土地徵收條例開公聽會那公聽會我們已經開完了所以我們會把意見送給內政部所以就可以往下進行可以繼續往下進行因為我現在要強調說我想院長可能不知道因為延旦快30年了這個案子是國家重大建設"},{"start":1371.861,"end":1382.042,"text":"經濟部已經有在公聽會的說明會在說重點可能還是在內政部這邊因為土地的審議程序一直就是遲遲沒有辦法做定案"},{"start":1383.41,"end":1407.457,"text":"百分之九十幾的地主都同意這塊土地去做區段徵收剩下些微的地主不同意好 那我們請內政經濟部這個徵收的說明會結束那麼意見總和以後送內政部結束審議 因為剛才院長您講因為我們就是大溪谷狼帶的打造這兩塊基地就是我們非常重要的一個引擎"},{"start":1408.277,"end":1429.986,"text":"如果你遲遲不讓他通過怎麼打造我們的大細股科技狼帶我們要了解這個卡現在問題在流程在這裡請經濟部能夠加速把整合的意見送給內政部來處理謝謝 我想院長我們一定要有決心讓國家的重大建設啟動起來不能再一直這樣延宕了怎麼樣去爭取我們這個國際大廠進到我們台灣來"},{"start":1435.151,"end":1457.791,"text":"那好所以我在此具體建議我做成一個建議請行政院責成國科會經濟部還有我們內政部立即捅軸成立新竹科技廊帶的推動的專案辦公室整合科山與台資園區明確定出開發的時程與目標請問院長是否支持本席這樣的建議"},{"start":1458.661,"end":1484.072,"text":"是不是在陶蘇苗大矽谷當中就可以是一部分也是可以啦但是我想更細一點成立一個專案辦公室加速去推動我們這六個產業生活區我們都有專案在做處理合訂之後 合訂之前當然努力合訂之後有專案在做處理我會請 尤其國科會或是國化會也進來一起在做這個整個陶蘇苗大矽谷的案子當中特別注意到您剛剛說的這一塊這兩個產業園區啦 好 謝謝院長"},{"start":1488.706,"end":1512.478,"text":"最後一個問題 部長你們兩個可以請回 次長 請回院長 最後要請問了關於警消退休所得替代率提高及軍人加薪的修法行政院未對軍人加薪提出複議但在4月1號就提高警消所得替代率以自愛難行提出複議"},{"start":1514.282,"end":1516.265,"text":"在遭到立法院否決在8月22號提起釋憲並申請暫時處分"},{"start":1521.192,"end":1546.781,"text":"但不關如此院長您還對立法院嗆聲說歷年來哪一個立法院替行政院編列預算院長您說過這樣的話這不是嗆聲我是依照事實來講立法院可以增加大幅增加稅數但一定要徵詢行政院同時指出資金是來源那這個都沒有理性我同意你說你不是嗆聲但是這是你的心聲"},{"start":1548.462,"end":1574.669,"text":"不過本席首先要請問院長的是歷年來哪一個行政院可以不施行總統已經公告的法律有哪一個行政院長有這樣做嗎我們希望在合憲的範疇裡面我們來執行那到底合憲與否我們希望大法官會議能做出正確的解釋所以院長你的答案是沒有嘛所以目前我們看到就只有你率領的行政院你率領的內閣團隊"},{"start":1577.028,"end":1598.499,"text":"我是不曉得院長你為什麼要一直口口聲聲說你認為這個案子是違憲我想我們警察人事條例第35條的修正案在三讀通過後今年4月25號我們總統就已經正式公告施行你也附屬了你也簽名了行政院可以不執行不依法執行嗎"},{"start":1599.195,"end":1617.708,"text":"就是讓他生效以後我們才能跟大法官來申請解釋到底這個法律是不是要執行所以他已經生效了嘛 對不對所以我的問題就是說那你既然這個法律已經生效了行政院可以憑你院長你個人的意志你個人的想法就不依法行政嗎"},{"start":1619.369,"end":1638.16,"text":"所以我希望能夠透過大法官會議來讓他的合憲性做一個正確最後的決定我想你是那我們也說過只要他合憲我們就編你是讀法律的啦編了以後我們還追溯到今年其實我只想告訴你 院長如果你這樣的說法你是行政院長"},{"start":1639.386,"end":1662.642,"text":"你去講說這個是違憲的法律你是行政院長你又要兼司法院的大法官我沒有 所以我請大法官解釋你這樣的說法不是變成這樣子嗎我今天沒有斷定他是違憲我是請大法官來解釋但是憲法法庭還沒做出裁定但是他為什麼違憲呢他還沒做出裁定你自己就認為憲法70條規定的很清楚是立法院沒有履行那個程序"},{"start":1663.402,"end":1675.232,"text":"沒有徵詢行政院 沒有指出資金的來源所以訂了這麼一個法律 希望行政院去增加支出我就是一直希望你要遵守我們立法院三讀通過的法律的規定"},{"start":1676.226,"end":1696.344,"text":"我知道你的意思啦你心裡就是認為這是違憲但是相關的我們在法律解釋上這部法律不管有沒有違憲要大法官說了算而不是行政院院長您個人說了算所以我請大法官會 報告委員我尊重立法院三讀通過的法律但是我更尊重憲法"},{"start":1697.984,"end":1720.852,"text":"那個 院長我們看你講的話啦行政院有表示啦可能就行政院的發言人表示這個案子已向憲法法庭申請釋憲與暫時處分若假如憲法法庭認為沒有違憲行政院馬上會進行調整及時追溯補齊相關人員的權益絕對不會受到影響"},{"start":1722.232,"end":1741.304,"text":"我想如果與其這樣你為何不換個合法的角度我給你一個建議也就是說你先依法執行如果將來裁定核線就繼續去執行播放如果是違憲就停止播放並追回"},{"start":1742.265,"end":1766.05,"text":"行政院你可以這樣做啊你現在就追回發出去的薪資待遇何等困難而且那時候我就會變成一個違憲的院長這個講法不對啦 院長因為我是說如果將來這個憲法法庭認為說我們這個法案是違憲的你再去把它追補回來嘛追回來何等困難我們追溯發放比較容易而且我就不會成為一個違憲的"},{"start":1767.674,"end":1784.52,"text":"院長 合憲我們就執行 違憲我們就不執行這就是一個角度的問題就是如何去做會比較站在你行政院的高度會比較合法 而且不會去好像跟立法院一直對抗對沖光今年我們對警察 對軍人的待遇已經增加了171億"},{"start":1786.101,"end":1810.83,"text":"包括追加預算的59.5億在內我們不是不照顧警察而且明年這個170億還是在的逐年都會有我知道你的想法但是我還是要奉勸你行政院一直堅持說這是一個違憲的但是我們的堅持立法院的堅持這是違法行政行政院不能成為太上的憲法法庭"},{"start":1811.874,"end":1827.82,"text":"所以你把警消的人員的權益完全置住於腦後那我們在野黨現在也告訴你我們可能會把總預算退回所以你又說你始終願意跟立法院來寫上總預算我們只是努力讓大法官的會議能夠順利的開懲讓他做出最終的決定我們就依照大法官會議"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1529,"blocks":[["林委員思銘：（16時30分）謝謝韓院長，我有請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員思銘：院長好。我首先要針對一般性補助辦法的修正問題來就教院長今年8月29號行政院公告修正中央對直轄市及縣（市）政府補助辦法，主計總處對外說，這只是配合新版的財劃法，沒有刪除補助，只是改變補助方式，但是真的是這樣嗎？我們來看一下，地方政府的反映是什麼？第一個反映就是這根本是變相的刪錢、變相的卡地方！這次的修正把一般性補助款的範圍改成是「具經常性、普及性、基本建設或維運性質、財政均衡等事項」，聽起來是冠冕堂皇，但我們來看實際上它代表的是什麼？這代表我們地方要透過申請、透過審查、透過評比，能不能拿到這個補助、什麼時候拿到、金額是多少，全部變成中央說了算，院長一直搖頭……"],["卓院長榮泰：不是這樣子、不是這樣子！"],["林委員思銘：我待會會給你說明的機會，給你答辯的機會。"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["林委員思銘：院長，這樣的改變使得地方的一般性補助款變成非常不確定，嚴重的影響地方年度預算的編列，尤其是社福、教育、交通等預算的編列被壓縮得很嚴重，造成他們非常大的困擾。以前我們稱這個叫一般性補助，現在根本變成好像地方要跟中央要飯，所以這已經不是支持地方建設，而是變相要讓地方看中央的臉色。","本席以我的選區新竹縣為例，目前新竹縣在全國的財力分級是第三級，但這次修法以後，主計總處說新竹縣會一口氣升級成為第一級，表面上看起來，我們升級好像很光榮，實際上升級卻是被懲罰，代表地方自籌財源的比例要從30%變成50%，中央的補助比例則從70%降為50%，講白了，也就是中央少給地方，地方自己要多掏錢。院長，這不是刪補助，什麼才是刪補助？我希望院長深刻體會地方的財政其實已經捉襟見肘了，這樣的作法不只是錯誤，而是中央只想集錢又集權，卻對地方自治造成極大的傷害與損害，更是對地方建設的慢性掐喉。","更離譜的是，新竹縣為什麼會硬被升級？這個我們非常不理解，因為新修正的第四條偷偷改了財力級次的計算方式，把未來才會拿到的統籌分配稅款硬是加進過去三年這樣的計算方式。院長，我不懂這是什麼邏輯，主計長待會跟我說明一下，因為111年到113年我們拿到的是舊制的統籌分配稅款，結果你卻把115年才會增加的稅款提前灌進去，這是什麼樣的計算方式？根本是「竹篙湊菜刀」，是硬湊數的一個計算方式。地方實際上根本沒拿到錢，帳上卻被算成好像是很有錢，行政院可不可以責成主計總處修正這個錯誤的升級模式？請院長回答。"],["卓院長榮泰：我請主計長很清楚向您回答，對於您說的這三、四個問題都有很正面的答復。"],["林委員思銘：好，可以。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，我跟委員報告，一般性補助款及計畫型補助款這兩個都是在均衡縣市的經濟項目，這兩個項目裡面大部分都是屬於縣市應辦的事項。以中央政府來講，今年在籌編總預算的時候遭遇很大的困難，因為籌編不出來，如果沒有減這些項目就沒有辦法編，所以我們今年在總預算部分的舉債是3,000億，如果加上特別預算就是4,000億……"],["林委員思銘：主計長，我打斷你一下，我剛才的問題是請問你，新竹縣為什麼從三級被變成一級？你是怎麼把它湊出來的？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，我們以115年度分配出4,165億的統籌分配稅款來看，新竹縣拿到的是最多的，如果以115年度獲得的統籌分配稅款來分級的話，它的財力是第一級，所以這個部分……"],["林委員思銘：新竹縣是第一級？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，所以我們是以財力所獲得到的財源來排序，這個都是可以公開的。"],["林委員思銘：但是新竹縣的統籌分配稅款，依照我過去歷次的質詢……"],["陳主計長淑姿：它以前是第三級。"],["林委員思銘：新竹縣都是排名非常後面的……"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，但是新的分配……"],["林委員思銘：所分配到的統籌分配稅款非常後面，一般性補助也是很少啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有、沒有，它在新的財源分配之後，所獲得的財源非常的多。"],["林委員思銘：所以你是依照新的財源分配，但是新的財劃法是115年才可以拿到這個錢啊！你怎麼會把它一下子從三級升到一級呢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：新竹縣增加了177億元。"],["林委員思銘：是啊，那要115年才能拿到這個錢嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，所以我們這個是針對115年的數字分配……"],["卓院長榮泰：這是115年的啊！"],["林委員思銘：但是現在你跟我講為什麼要把它升級，是因為你去計算它過去三年的分配數嘛……"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，以過去三年還要加上115年的權數。"],["林委員思銘：過去3年是111年到113年，它所獲得的分配數是非常的少啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，它115年事實上是增加了177億。"],["林委員思銘：所以你用這樣灌進來的話，我們就馬上……因為這個造成了我剛剛一直講的，變成我們未來爭取到的一般性補助款……我們的自籌款要增加到50%啊！從30%到50%。"],["陳主計長淑姿：跟委員報告，22個縣市全部同一基礎，沒有一個是例外的，所以是以同一基礎去計算，算出來再去排序。"],["林委員思銘：所以我的結論啦，因為我還有很多問題，謝謝主計長。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，你應該看到這個數字，新竹縣增加177億……"],["林委員思銘：這個我們了解。"],["卓院長榮泰：彰化只增加175億，但彰化的人口多那麼多，所以從這個計算結果來看的話，新竹縣增加的比例是很大的。"],["林委員思銘：主計長，我想我們的公式很清楚……"],["卓院長榮泰：但我認為這個是不均衡。"],["林委員思銘：公式很清楚，統籌分配稅款的分配比例，按照這次修法補助的各項指標都非常清楚。"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員……"],["林委員思銘：我現在問的是，為什麼我們會從三級變成一級？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為增加的比較多。"],["陳主計長淑姿：對呀！確實115年會增加177億。"],["林委員思銘：沒有，你不能用115年來算啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：這是算明年的，明年的級數。"],["林委員思銘：所以我是覺得這樣算是邏輯錯誤啦！我想這個問題我們先談到這裡，但是我還是希望院長，你要正視這個問題。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們可以好好的討論一個合理的財政收支劃分法。"],["林委員思銘：對，未來我們要好好去討論這個，因為這樣子真的造成縣市政府很大的影響。","第二個問題想要請問院長的是，有關臺大竹北校地閒置迄今已二十幾年了。院長，你有到過竹北嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我沒有到過這個地方。"],["林委員思銘：交流道旁邊有一塊臺大本來要建校的校地。"],["卓院長榮泰：我似乎記得有一次車子有經過。"],["林委員思銘：對，那一塊校地當時撥用給臺大，總共有22公頃，從民國89年到現在，現在只有一個碧禎館在那邊作為推廣教育的中心，其他的全部都閒置，荒煙蔓草的非常可惜。新竹人已經等了超過20年，竹北這塊臺大校地有22.46公頃，行政院核准撥用給臺大到現在已經24年了。當年講得非常漂亮，就是臺大要設分校，要發展高等教育，要帶動整個新竹的科技產業，結果呢？二十幾年過去了，只蓋了一棟我剛才講的碧禎館，作為在職進修所用，根本不是分校，這樣叫做建設高等教育嗎？這樣對得起當年臺大對新竹縣民的承諾嗎？我從議員一路到現在當立委，這塊地我看了二十幾年，地方的反彈聲音也非常大，臺大就一直讓它這樣荒蕪著，非常可惜。地方人士每次經過都在問我說，委員，這塊地到底要空置到什麼時候？大家都很惋惜，大家都覺得很傷感，蛋黃區的土地、非常棒的一塊土地，到現在就一直被閒置著。","院長，我想您可能不太了解，部長比較了解，但是我還是要講，臺大說這塊地是有償取得，但是依照土地法第二十六條的規定，各級政府機關因為興辦公共事業需用公有土地時，應商同該管直轄市或縣市政府層請行政院核准撥用。教育部在113年回文給本席書面報告，部長，當時你也跟我說，新竹縣政府在89年6月5號函復同意國立臺灣大學有償撥用新竹縣竹北市大學段1地號土地，面積22.08575公頃。國立臺灣大學在89年8月15日函請教育部轉請行政院同意新竹縣竹北市大學段1地號土地有償撥用，案經行政院於89年9月18日核准此有償撥用案。我想請教院長，如果真的有償撥用這塊土地，因為我們一直強調是「有償撥用」，如果是有償撥用，那金額是多少？有沒有付款的相關證明？教育部，有沒有？有沒有？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個資料我們要……"],["林委員思銘：先請部長回答……"],["卓院長榮泰：教育部有資料嗎？還是我們再……"],["林委員思銘：有沒有付款的證明？因為我們是有償撥用，要他有償撥用，臺大要付費的，不是免費送你的。"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，過去我針對這一個臺大在……當然我想當時新竹縣政府是希望，借重臺大的科研能量能夠協助新竹縣縣政的發展，我想這應該給予肯定。我也同時認為，如果臺大本身在整個科研能量或者學校的發展上，已經沒有辦法再更積極地去協助新竹縣的發展，我也建議新竹縣可以考慮把它收回。"],["林委員思銘：是，謝謝，我第一次聽到部長這麼有魄力地講這個話。我剛剛一直強調，因為我們現在想要請臺大歸還這塊土地，到底有什麼法律依據？這個很重要。當時講的就是「有償撥用」，臺大有沒有確實給新竹縣政府錢？這就是大家的疑慮。因為地方傳說是1塊錢撥用，這麼貴的土地現在價值可能七、八百億，甚至到900億，當時1塊錢撥用，有可能嗎？教育部有去了解嗎？說這個是天方夜譚，不可能啦！就是我們講要有償撥用，什麼1塊錢送你，不可能的事情。據我去了解，根本零啦，臺大沒有付半毛錢，所以我請教育部去請教臺大，當時的付款證明可不可以拿出來，可不可以？請部長你會後給我，好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們會後來跟臺大了解。"],["林委員思銘：對。所以我想這個案子，真的到目前為止，如果如部長剛才講的，如果臺大真的沒有能力去興辦、去建設分校，協助新竹縣政府作為相關的科學教育使用的話，我們要讓地盡其利，你就把這塊土地還給新竹縣政府嘛。我為什麼一直強調這個？因為當初我們跟臺大拜託，請他撥出3到5公頃的土地給新竹縣政府興辦高中，因為竹北的高中能量不足，臺大拒絕了，所以當時我就覺得奇怪，臺大怎麼會踩得這麼硬？22公頃的土地，請你撥個3到5公頃都不願意，這樣子會讓我們覺得臺大真的是……你不用付半毛錢取得這塊土地，你卻不願意讓新竹縣來設立高中。我們當時說要興建臺大附中，這麼好的一個使用方式，臺大拒絕了，我當時就覺得非常的遺憾。如果誠如剛才部長講的，臺大真的沒有能力，你現在一直講說要跟校友募款來蓋這個學校，但是現在據我所知，臺大最近的說法是怎麼講？臺大最近說，他的竹北分部將規劃以次世代的半導體、AI人工智慧、智慧醫療三大核心領域技術，成立臺灣科技中心產業聚落。但院長應該知道，計畫永遠跟不上變化，這個都是龜速在進行，臺大已經給我們很多次承諾，給新竹縣政府很多次承諾，沒有一次有完成的，所以在這種情況下，我要特別提醒院長，現在大家都希望輝達能夠進駐，各縣市政府都在爭取。我假設一個前提，如果新光人壽與臺北市政府沒有辦法達成解約、合意解除契約的協議，臺大這塊校地有22公頃，這塊土地是跟竹北的AI科技園區相鄰近，又跟竹科非常近，又有高等學府，我們有很棒的科技人才，交大、清大還有明新科大培育出非常多的科技人才，所以這塊土地非常適合輝達來這邊設立亞洲的全球總部。這麼好的一個地方，所以我要拜託院長，可不可以跟輝達講一下？或者跟臺大講一下，也跟臺大講一下去看一下這塊土地，這是地理條件非常好的一個土地，我幫新竹縣來請命，爭取這一塊，輝達到新竹縣來設立亞洲總部，可不可以，院長？"],["卓院長榮泰：國際大廠選擇它的設廠，或是設它的營運中心，都有一定的程序跟標準，現在在跟臺北市正陷入一個跟新光人壽的合約當中……"],["林委員思銘：是，所以我有一個假設的前提，假設破局的話，我是覺得新竹縣已經準備好了。"],["卓院長榮泰：那您可以先跟蔣市長談一下，如果他破局的話就往這裡來送。"],["林委員思銘：你承諾可以吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然也要尊重產業。"],["林委員思銘：這個要由你來引薦，跟輝達來……"],["卓院長榮泰：但是最終就是要把輝達這個國際大廠留在臺灣，這是無可取代的一個目標。"],["林委員思銘：院長，我們格局放大一點，不僅僅輝達，如果世界大廠要……因為現在我們希望臺灣成為亞洲的資產中心。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["林委員思銘：所以這塊土地都可以做很好的利用。臺大如果真的沒有辦法去建設分校，把這塊土地去育成新竹縣做更好的發揮利用，我要拜託院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，那我們雙頭進行，您跟蔣市長談一下。"],["林委員思銘：是、是、是。"],["卓院長榮泰：部長、我們跟臺大校長談一下，到底這個地方怎麼用？或許國科會也要進來談一下，未來整個園區該怎麼進行、怎麼樣對新竹有利、怎麼樣對臺灣有利，我們朝這個方向來想。"],["林委員思銘：謝謝。接下來就新竹縣的兩個產業園區，請院長一定也要儘速來推動。新竹是臺灣科技的心臟，心臟不能停擺，不能被行政作業緩慢耽誤，所以有關於新竹縣楊縣長的兩支箭，一是竹科三期的計畫，另一是臺灣知識經濟園區。這兩個園區可以說是打造桃竹苗大矽谷廊帶的重要產業基地，也是我們新竹產業升級的雙引擎，卻因為審議的行政程序冗長、部會溝通不利、中央缺乏魄力，導致進度嚴重落後，讓地方民眾與產業界焦慮萬分。院長，科學園區三期（科三）規劃超過92公頃的產業用地，原本定位為竹科的延伸擴充區，要承接半導體、AI晶片、智慧製造、車用電子等高端產業，但是地方已經等了二十多年，用地變更、環評審查、交通配套一再延宕，廠商一直苦等不到這塊土地，地方發展被綁手綁腳，所以請問院長，科學園區三期的徵收，目前內政部國土署審議的進度為何？內政部可不可以回答？部長，現在審議進度到哪裡？請部長。"],["主席：麻煩請內政部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員說明，桃竹苗大矽谷是我們進度最快的一個六大產業生活區，我們一定會按照速度，甚至加速來完成，因為它必須跟大南方新矽谷兩個合成一個臺灣帶動的雙引擎，共同發展。"],["林委員思銘：對，沒錯，院長講的沒錯，現在就是因為有桃竹苗大矽谷廊帶的打造，所以我才關心現在它的進度到哪裡。因為據我所知已經經過內政部，現在審議得也差不多了，現在就等大會的審議……"],["卓院長榮泰：好像也有縣政府該做的一些行政作為。"],["林委員思銘：我比較關心的是什麼時候會完成、它的時程，因為等太久了。"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，現在我們所了解的是縣政府還在辦理可行性評估作業，預計今年年底完成。"],["林委員思銘：是，今年年底完成？"],["劉部長世芳：對，相關的道路工程要補助到2.87億元，這個大概縣政府也了解，但是後續仍然有環境影響評估的作業，還沒有到內政部國土署正式提出申請。"],["林委員思銘：是。"],["劉部長世芳：所以還有兩個程序還沒有完成。"],["卓院長榮泰：縣政府的程序要加快。"],["劉部長世芳：對。"],["林委員思銘：部長，您說兩個程序？"],["劉部長世芳：一個是縣政府要辦理可行性評估作業，他們已經告訴我們今年年底完成。"],["林委員思銘：是。"],["劉部長世芳：完成之後還有一個環境影響評估的綜合規劃作業，這個還沒有完成，但是我們已經有做超前部署，也就是完成相關程序之後，它的道路會用生活圈的道路方式。"],["林委員思銘：部長，這個到底要不要做環境影響評估？我記得在都審會小組的時候我有參與，這塊土地的區段徵收不用進行環評。"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，環評……"],["林委員思銘：你現在又回到要環評了？"],["劉部長世芳：不是，環境影響評估的綜合規劃作業還沒有向國土署正式提出申請。"],["林委員思銘：好啦！這個部分您再以書面詳細向我答復，因為時間的關係。"],["劉部長世芳：回頭我會再跟委員報告。"],["林委員思銘：因為在整個小組會議中好像對這一塊都達成共識，不用提出環境影響評估，因為有很多人提出來。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個因為很大，超過30公頃就要送到環境部做環境影響評估，這個是一定要的。"],["林委員思銘：是，這一塊現在又回到要？我想我得到的資訊是不用，因為在整個開會的過程中，每一次我都有參與。"],["劉部長世芳：土地面積超過10公頃以上就要了。"],["林委員思銘：我想這部分再請您用書面給我很詳細的答復。另外就是有關臺灣知識經濟園區，我想竹北是全國人口成長最快的城市，同時也是AI產業與國際企業最關注的據點，竹北的臺知園區這塊土地區段徵收大概規劃有四百多公頃，這個園區不論地理條件、產業的連結、人才的聚集度，目前來講都是我個人覺得全臺灣最佳的選擇，因為它就鄰近高鐵，而且跟現在的生物醫學園區相鄰，整個土地的規劃可以說是非常適合作為產業的聚落，以及打造一個非常宜居的聚落，所以我在此也是要請內政部加速臺灣知識經濟園區的審議。"],["劉部長世芳：他送案上來，其實我們都會按照進度審議。"],["林委員思銘：目前進度到哪裡了？"],["劉部長世芳：現在……"],["林委員思銘：現在都審會小組在審查中啊！"],["劉部長世芳：表示審查是有進度的，因為都審會的小組……"],["林委員思銘：但是審查已經歷經好幾次了。"],["卓院長榮泰：請經濟部來說明。"],["劉部長世芳：請經濟部來回應，好不好？"],["林委員思銘：好，請經濟部回答，謝謝。"],["何次長晉滄：報告委員，這個案子因為涉及到土地徵收的問題，必須要按照土地徵收條例開公聽會，公聽會已經開完了，我們會把意見送給內政部，所以就可以往下進行。"],["林委員思銘：可以繼續往下進行了？"],["何次長晉滄：對。"],["林委員思銘：我現在要強調的是，我想院長可能不知道，因為延宕快三十年了，這個案子是國家重大建設。"],["卓院長榮泰：經濟部已經有在公聽會說明，也在處理……"],["林委員思銘：重點還是可能在內政部，因為土地的審議程序一直就是遲遲沒有辦法定案，百分之九十幾的地主都同意這塊土地區段徵收，剩下些微的地主不同意。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，那我們請經濟部在徵收的說明會結束，將意見總合以後送內政部實質審查。"],["林委員思銘：對，儘速審議啦！因為剛才也講了，我們就是打造大矽谷廊帶，這兩塊基地就是我們非常重要的一個引擎，如果遲遲不讓它通過，怎麼打造大矽谷科技廊帶？"],["卓院長榮泰：不會、不會，我們要了解……現在流程在這裡，請經濟部能夠加速把整合的意見送給內政部來處理。"],["林委員思銘：好，謝謝，院長，我想我們一定要有決心。"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["林委員思銘：讓國家的重大建設啟動起來。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["林委員思銘：不能再一直這樣延宕了，這樣怎麼去爭取國際大廠進到臺灣？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["林委員思銘：所以我在此具體建議，我作成一個建議，請行政院責成國科會與經濟部，還有內政部，立即統籌成立新竹科技廊帶推動的專案辦公室，整合科三與臺知園區，明確訂出開發的時程與目標。請問院長，是否支持本席這樣的建議？就是成立一個專案辦公室……"],["卓院長榮泰：這是不是在桃竹苗大矽谷當中就可以是一部分？"],["林委員思銘：也是可以，但是我想更細一點，成立一個專案辦公室加速去推動。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們這6個產業生活區都有專案在處理，核定之前當然努力，核定之後有專案在處理。我會請剛剛你說的，尤其國科會或是國發會也進來，一起在做整個桃竹苗大矽谷的案子當中，特別注意到您剛剛說的這一塊。"],["林委員思銘：好，這兩個產業園區，謝謝院長。","部長及次長，你們兩位可以請回。院長，最後要請問，關於警消退休所得替代率提高及軍人加薪的修法，行政院未對軍人加薪提出覆議，但在4月1號就提高警消所得替代率以窒礙難行提出覆議；在遭到立法院否決後，又在8月22號提起釋憲，並聲請暫時處分。但不光如此，院長還對立法院嗆聲說「歷年來哪一個立法院替行政院編列預算？」您說過這樣的話……"],["卓院長榮泰：這不是嗆聲，我是依照事實來講。立法院可以大幅增加歲出，但一定要徵詢行政院，同時指出資金之來源，這個都沒有履行。"],["林委員思銘：院長，我同意你說你不是嗆聲，但是這是你的心聲。本席首先要請問院長的是，歷年來哪一個行政院可以不施行總統已經公告的法律？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們希望……"],["林委員思銘：有嗎？哪一個行政院長有這樣做嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有，我們希望在合憲的範疇裡面來執行。"],["林委員思銘：沒有嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：那到底合憲與否，我們希望大法官能做出正確的解釋。"],["林委員思銘：好，院長，你的答案是沒有，所以目前我們看到就只有你率領的行政院、你率領的內閣團隊。我不曉得院長為什麼要一直口口聲聲說，你認為這個案子是違憲的？警察人事條例第三十五條的修正案在三讀通過後，今年4月25號總統就已經正式公告施行，你也副署了，你也簽名了，行政院可以不執行、不依法執行嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：就是讓它生效以後，我們才能跟大法官來聲請解釋到底這個法律是不是要執行……"],["林委員思銘：所以它已經生效了，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：對啊！"],["林委員思銘：我的問題是，既然這個法律已經生效了，行政院可以憑院長個人的意志、個人的想法，就不依法行政嗎？可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我希望能夠透過大法官，讓它的合憲性做一個正確、最後的決定。我們也說過，只要它合憲，我們就編。"],["林委員思銘：院長，你是讀法律的……"],["卓院長榮泰：編了以後，我們還會追溯到今年。"],["林委員思銘：你是讀法律的。其實我只是想告訴你，院長，如果你這樣的說法……你是行政院長，你說這個是違憲的法律，你是行政院長，你又要兼司法院的大法官……"],["卓院長榮泰：我沒有，所以我請大法官解釋。"],["林委員思銘：你這樣的說法不就是變成這樣子嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有、沒有，我今天沒有斷定它是違憲的，我是請大法官來解釋。"],["林委員思銘：對，但是憲法法庭還沒做出裁定。"],["卓院長榮泰：但是它為什麼違憲呢？憲法第七十條……"],["林委員思銘：它還沒做出裁定，你自己就認為那個法律是違憲……"],["卓院長榮泰：憲法第七十條規定得很清楚，是立法院沒有履行那個程序，沒有徵詢行政院，沒有指出資金的來源，所以定了這麼一個法律，希望行政院增加支出。"],["林委員思銘：院長，我就是一直希望你要遵守立法院三讀通過的法律規定。我知道你的意思，你心裡就是認為這是違憲的，但是我們在法律解釋上，這部法律不管有沒有違憲，要大法官說了算，而不是行政院院長個人說了算……"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我請大法官……報告委員，我尊重……"],["林委員思銘：但是現在裁定還沒有做出來。"],["卓院長榮泰：我尊重立法院三讀通過的法律，但是我更尊重憲法。"],["林委員思銘：院長，我看你講的話，行政院有表示，可能就是行政院的發言人表示，這個案子已向憲法法庭聲請釋憲與暫時處分，假如憲法法庭認為沒有違憲，行政院馬上會進行調整、即時追溯補齊，相關人員的權益絕對不會受到影響。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒錯。"],["林委員思銘：院長，我想如果與其這樣，你為何不換個合法的角度？我給你一個建議，也就是說，你先依法執行，如果將來裁定合憲，就繼續執行撥放；若是違憲，就停止撥放並追回。行政院可以這樣做，你現在就依法執行啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，追回發出去的薪資待遇何等困難？而且那時候我就會變成一個違憲的院長。"],["林委員思銘：這個講法不對。我是說如果將來憲法法庭認為這個法案是違憲的，你再去把它追補回來嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：追回來何等困難？我們追溯發放比較容易，而且我就不會成為一個違憲的院長，合憲我們就執行，違憲我們就不執行。"],["林委員思銘：卓院長，這就是一個角度的問題啦，就是如何去做會比較……站在你行政院院長的高度……"],["卓院長榮泰：而且跟委員報告，光今年啦……"],["林委員思銘：會比較合法，而且好像不會跟立法院一直對抗、對衝。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有，沒有，光今年我們對警察、對軍人的待遇已經增加了171億，包括追加預算的59.5億在內，我們不是不照顧警察，而且明年這個171億還是在的，逐年都會有。"],["林委員思銘：院長，我知道你的想法，但是我還是要奉勸你，行政院一直堅持這是違憲的，而立法院堅持這是違法行政，行政院不能成為太上的憲法法庭，所以你把警消的人員的權益完全置諸於腦後。那我們在野黨現在也告訴你，我們可能會把總預算退回，你又說你始終願意跟立法院來協商總預算。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們是不是努力讓大法官能夠順利的開審，讓它做出最終的決定？我們就依照大法官的決定來執行。"],["林委員思銘：解鈴還需繫鈴人，就看總統提名的是不是適任且專業的大法官。"],["卓院長榮泰：他已經提了14位，全部被否決。"],["林委員思銘：立法院會作出專業的判斷。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們再努力，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林思銘委員質詢，謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長備詢。","接下來請今天最後一位登記質詢的林宜瑾委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":23,"meet_id":"院會-11-4-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-14"],"gazette_id":"1147901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1147901_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}