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因為這一次財化法它總共分配就是說通過之後我們要分配給地方就是4165億然後它裡面又加4165億是預估值如果你的營業稅將來台灣的GDP繼續成長對你的這個"},{"start":181.221,"end":206.992,"text":"會分配給地方還會更多對那所以這個部分他其中又有一個我對一般縣市補助又必須維持2,501所以兩個合起來就將近15%那15%裡面其實這個部分是包括以前相關的市權並沒有移轉那第二個他分配給各縣市他的均衡他很很大的一個差異所以有一些比如我說比較那個"},{"start":209.193,"end":233.016,"text":"商業發展不是那麼的一個快速的一個縣市他就整個人吃虧所以這個部分我們整個分配下來均衡不一樣所以很多的縣市其實他是受到很大的一個那個所以我們已經被破壞了就是沒有去均衡各縣市財政還有給各位一個相等的一個待遇的一個能力了"},{"start":233.818,"end":257.631,"text":"講到錢就傷感情啦 大家都掙錢啦希望自己手上的錢越多越好可是談到收支的時候就要關於你要做什麼工作的分配我覺得要從工作的分配上面才來去看收入應該要怎麼樣來分配所以我是希望因為這個草案你還沒有提過來"},{"start":258.832,"end":284.157,"text":"那我也不知道提過來在本院能夠通過的機會有多大現在立法院不太講道理大家就講政治立場就專門在做政治攻擊所以要好好的把這個道理跟社會大眾說清楚基本上所有無論是中央政府或地方政府的稅收都是"},{"start":285.222,"end":304.977,"text":"全民的納稅錢 那這個納稅錢應該要怎麼用基本上要看你負擔了什麼工作 要負擔了多少工作需要用多少錢 這樣邏輯才是正確的而不是先設建再劃法 就是我就給你多少錢那你要做什麼工作不知道 那你隨便你亂花"},{"start":306.226,"end":322.944,"text":"我想民眾不希望這樣狀況無論是中央政府或地方政府他都不需要這樣的狀況對不對因為當初市權市權並沒有劃分出來所以而且市權很多都必須要做修法才能夠去做改變所以我們不得不就必須要把原來"},{"start":324.185,"end":345.511,"text":"属于地方政府硬办的事项然后转给地方去办就是原来中央补助的一个部分改由他的统筹分配税款的相关去支应但是这个部分呢其实比如说我们以往的一般性补助包括计划性补助都是属于地方硬办的事项然后中央着于补助所以这个部分呢"},{"start":346.192,"end":361.031,"text":"當然有一些縣市他會覺得說我這個拿到了錢但是他又不想做這些他原來硬辦的事項所以我們還是必須跟他引導讓他去做這些一個屬於原來地方硬辦的事項我剛剛講除了電費之外現在又在講那個"},{"start":363.769,"end":389.711,"text":"中小學營養午餐的那個補助各式各樣的問題其實都看到枝微末節沒有看到它的根本要從事權的劃分才來決定財政的分財務 錢的分配嘛那你事權劃分的部分不講清楚所以我是希望行政院在提出這個草案到本院來的時候連帶這些東西都要跟社會大眾做清楚的報告"},{"start":390.692,"end":416.306,"text":"不然的話每一個問題拿出來的時候個別的地方政府都是會站在他自己的角度看事情你剛剛講的有一個問題啊將來一定會面臨搶稅的問題因為你的營業稅既然現在改成是中央代收其實是地方的錢那過去的觀念我的營業總部設在哪裡我的營業稅在哪裡繳"},{"start":417.817,"end":444.124,"text":"開玩笑那以後台北市都是櫥窗我們新北市都是廚房桃園都是廚房大家的工廠開在中南部開在我們這些地方結果他的營業總部設在台北市那營業所有都在台北市交這個不公道這個已經講了幾十年了但是如果這一次沒有辦法好好的把這個法律釐清以後的地方政府"},{"start":445.253,"end":459.038,"text":"你這個總部不簽到我的工廠如果在我這個地方不簽到我總部不簽到我這個地方來的話我每天要跟你做一些奇奇怪怪的消防檢查啦公安檢查啦每天來跟你檢查逼你要把你的營業總部簽到我這個地方政府來"},{"start":460.457,"end":485.936,"text":"會出現這樣的亂象喔是是 謝謝委員這個部分呢財政部已經針對這個所以他要做一個統一的劃分的一個公司去做涉算或者把一些農地比較佔的一個部分是不是要提升要做一個統一的涉算這個是草案要向社會大眾說明是的本院不一定會接受本院現在有多幾票就對方的意見就是完全不予考納採納都採用突擊式的立法"},{"start":486.496,"end":514.642,"text":"都到要表決前才提出他的修正案我們連看都沒看過就表決過啦然後你們又平常又不做充分的說明所以社會大眾立法又透過什麼法律搞不清楚啊連立法委員都搞不清楚你知道嗎我們會盡量來做都是機密啊到了要表決前五分鐘才提出他的修正案怎麼拿到這樣的立法方式所以這件事情對國家的影響發展非常的大"},{"start":515.595,"end":535.027,"text":"我個人是認為 正本清源 事權的劃分先談清楚事權劃分清楚之後 因為需要辦事 需要多少錢 然後才談錢的分配要從最上游整個釐清下來 整個事情才能夠清清楚楚"},{"start":535.287,"end":556.762,"text":"所以這個部分我們國化會已經針對這個部分譬如說原來中央一般性補助和計劃性補助包括整個事權所謂的一個作用法相關的都在做一個檢討那哪些是必須中央持續補助的要維持或者哪些要回歸地方那整個國化會都有已經在做一個"},{"start":557.362,"end":579.818,"text":"一個這個研究還有一個跟部會來做討論那所以這個部分也會並同我們整個財化法的一個修正來整個疫病來提出來主委長我的今天的諮詢你還是沒有聽懂我一個關鍵的地方就是這個要向社會大眾說明因為本院喔是一個比力量的地方比飄數的地方不是比道理的地方"},{"start":580.999,"end":595.335,"text":"所以你們如果對社會大眾沒有辦法說明讓社會大眾能夠信服的話在立法院來你們是絕對把你改得亂七八糟扭曲了我新北市12個立委啊要表決的話我們會輸你們嗎所以如果病人這樣就糟糕了是"},{"start":596.056,"end":618.43,"text":"所以我們對於這個國家很重要的一個法律如何來做這個要趕快想既然行政院草案要提出來一定要對社會大眾充分說明充分說明之後才能夠避免這些滋味末節的爭執才能夠正本清源談到問題的根本好不好加油對社會大眾充分說明是謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":196,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（9時30分）主席，麻煩請陳主計長。"],["主席：我們請陳主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["吳委員秉叡：主計長早。我有看到媒體報導，行政院現在要提出財政收支劃分法草案，送到本院來審議，這個你有參與討論嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：有。"],["吳委員秉叡：財政收支劃分法不是只有收，還有支啦！對收的部分，當然就是收進來的稅收如何分配，包括中央地方的垂直分配跟各縣市政府的水平分配，但是支的部分，基本上就要先了解中央跟地方的權責，還有各地方政府的權責如何劃分，這樣對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以最近我看到媒體上講了很多衝突，我就覺得很奇怪，這不能好好談嗎？譬如說，地方政府都說以前蘇貞昌院長時代做到班班有冷氣，現在地方政府說電費中央要繼續補助。中央的講法是因為財政收支劃分法，在野黨藍白在立法院是多數，所以把一大塊、一口氣拿了幾千億去地方，讓中央現在的財政能力跟以前是不能相比，況且這裡面一個很重要的因素就是國民基本教育中小學本來就是地方政府的權責，班班有冷氣的建置是中央出的，前面幾年在中央財政有餘裕、在財政收支劃分還比較充分的時候，由中央來支持這個電費，那一年的電費在這一部分總共是多少，你知道嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：電費的部分大概是17.2億。"],["吳委員秉叡：關於班班有冷氣的部分？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這是水電費的補助，班班有冷氣大概是12.6億，所以是兩個分開。"],["吳委員秉叡：他給你拿了幾千億之後，連這十幾億都不要付了，所以網路上有一個比喻，爸爸、媽媽買手機給我，連手機網路費還要你再繼續出，是不是這樣的概念？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是！因為這一次財劃法通過之後，我們要分配給地方4,165億，然後它裡面又加一個……"],["吳委員秉叡：4,165億是預估值啦。"],["陳主計長淑姿：對！"],["吳委員秉叡：如果你的營業稅……將來臺灣的GDP繼續成長，分配給地方還會更多。"],["陳主計長淑姿：對！所以這個部分，其中又有一個對於一般縣市補助又必須維持2,501，所以兩個合起來就將近15%，在15%裡面，包括以前相關的事權並沒有移轉；第二個，分配給各縣市會有很大的差異，如果商業發展比較不是那麼快速的縣市就很吃虧，我們整個分配下來，均衡不一，所以很多的縣市會受到很大的那個……我們已經被破壞了，就是沒有去均衡各縣市的財政，還有給各位一個相等待遇的能力了。"],["吳委員秉叡：對。講到錢又傷感情，大家都爭錢，希望自己手上的錢越多越好，可是談到分收支的時候，就要談到你要做什麼工作的分配，我覺得要從工作的分配上面才去看收入應該要怎麼樣來分配，所以我是希望，因為這個草案你還沒有提過來嘛？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：我也不知道提過來之後，在本院通過的機會有多大，因為現在立法院不太講道理，大家就講政治立場，專門在做政治攻擊，所以要好好地把這個道理跟社會大眾說清楚。基本上無論中央政府或地方政府的稅收都是全民的納稅錢，這個納稅錢應該要怎麼用，基本上要看你負擔了什麼工作、負擔了多少工作、需要用多少錢，這樣的邏輯才是正確的，而不是先射箭再畫靶，我就給你多少錢，你要做什麼工作？不知道！隨便你亂花！我想，無論是中央政府或地方政府，民眾都不希望是這樣的狀況，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。因為當初事權並沒有劃分出來，而且很多事權都必須修法才能夠去做改變，所以我們不得不把原來屬於地方政府應辦的事項轉給地方去辦，就是原來中央補助的部分改由它的統籌分配稅款去做相關的支應，譬如以往的一般性補助，包括計畫型補助，都是屬於地方應辦事項，中央酌予補助，這個部分當然會有一些縣市覺得自己拿到了錢，但是又不想做這些它原來的應辦事項，所以必須跟它引導，讓它去做這些原本屬於地方的應辦事項。"],["吳委員秉叡：對啦！我剛剛講，除了電費之外，現在又在講中小學營養午餐的補助。"],["陳主計長淑姿：對。"],["吳委員秉叡：各式各樣的問題其實都看到細枝末節，沒有看到它的根本是要從事權的劃分來決定錢的分配，那你事權劃分的部分不講清楚！所以我是希望行政院提出這個草案到本院的時候，要連帶把這些東西都跟社會大眾做清楚的報告，不然的話，每個問題拿出來的時候，個別地方政府都會站在自己的角度看事情。你剛剛講的有一個問題，就是將來一定會面臨搶稅的問題，因為營業稅既然現在改成中央代收，而它其實是地方的錢，過去的觀念是營業總部設在哪裡，營業稅就在哪裡繳……"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：開玩笑啊！那以後臺北市都是櫥窗，我們新北市都是廚房，桃園也都是廚房啊！大家把工廠開在中南部和我們這些地方，結果營業總部設在臺北市，營業稅都在臺北市繳，這個不公道！這已經講了幾十年了。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：但是如果這一次沒有辦法好好地把這個法律釐清，以後企業把工廠設在我這個地方，卻不把總部遷過來的話，地方政府就每天對企業做一些奇奇怪怪的事情，譬如消防檢查、工安檢查，每天跟你檢查，逼你要把營業總部遷到我這個地方政府來。會出現這樣的亂象喔！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，謝謝委員。財政部已經針對這個部分設計一個統一劃分公式去做設算，或者是針對一些農地占較大比例的部分，看是否需要做個提升，要做一個統一試算。"],["吳委員秉叡：這個是草案，要向社會大眾說明。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是的。"],["吳委員秉叡：本院不一定會接受，因為本院現在只要多幾票，對方的意見就完全不予採納，而且都採用突襲式的立法，到要表決前才提出修正案，我們連看都沒看過，就表決過了！然後你們平常又不做充分的說明，所以社會大眾搞不清楚立法院到底通過什麼法律，連立法委員都搞不清楚，你知道嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分我們會儘量來做，我們會針對……"],["吳委員秉叡：都是機密啊！到了表決前5分鐘才提出他們的修正案！哪有這樣的立法方式！","這件事情對國家發展的影響非常大，我個人是認為，正本清源，事權的劃分要先談清楚，事權劃分清楚之後，因為需要辦事、需要多少錢，然後才談錢的分配。要從最上游整個釐清下來，事情才會清清楚楚。"],["陳主計長淑姿：所以國發會已經針對這個部分，譬如說原來中央的一般性補助和計畫型補助，包括和整個事權相關的作用法，都在做一個檢討，哪些是中央必須持續補助的要維持，或者哪些要回歸地方，國發會都已經在做整個研究，也和部會做討論，所以這個部分也會併同財劃法的修正，整個一起提出來。"],["吳委員秉叡：主計長，對於我今天的質詢，你還是沒有聽懂我一個關鍵的地方，就是這個要向社會大眾說明啦！因為本院是一個比力量、比票數的地方，不是比道理的地方，所以你們如果沒有辦法對社會大眾說明，讓大家信服的話，到立法院來，絕對會把你改得亂七八糟，扭曲得……我們新北市有12個立委，要表決的話，我們會輸你們嗎？如果變成這樣就糟糕了！所以，對國家很重要的一個法律要如何來做？這個要趕快想。既然行政院草案要提出來，一定要對社會大眾充分說明，充分說明之後才能避免這些細枝末節的爭執，才能夠正本清源，談到問題的根本。好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：好。"],["吳委員秉叡：加油！對社會大眾充分說明。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，謝謝委員。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員。接下來請賴士葆委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":182,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-2","speakers":["李坤城","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","鍾佳濱","李彥秀","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","羅明才","葉元之","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","林思銘","王世堅","陳玉珍"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1148401_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}