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今年"},{"start":26.18,"end":48.032,"text":"目前我們大概是4.45我們自己4.45但是因為還有幾個月嘛你那個是8月底的嘛對 差不多那個是8月底的數字嘛9 10 11 12這幾個月因為有一個變數就是我們台美或者美台關稅在10月底才 傳息會以後才會確定這個會不會影響"},{"start":52.376,"end":73.386,"text":"這個也會影響 所以我們會逐漸緩和啦會比較低還是比較高 比這個數字低還高我們預測應該也不會低很少我們本來當初在結束的時候預估是比較低但是現在是有逐漸緩和上來一個趨勢的一個那個所以大概今年你的預估大概差不多4%左右"},{"start":75.027,"end":90.915,"text":"4.45將近4.54.45是在8月底的時候預估的 我說今年底啦但是亞銀估的部分是5.1啊所以他亞銀啦 亞銀在估算的時候他對我們還對我們估5.1你認為不會這麼高嗎我們應該也趨近啦 趨近4.45是高估還是低估呢 你告訴我"},{"start":99.915,"end":114.535,"text":"有一點低估啦4.45低估央行他估的比我們還高啦央行估多少4.5多啦4.5多好不好 持續注意啦是那CPI現在看得很低才1.25對吧"},{"start":116.741,"end":140.621,"text":"可是老百姓感覺物價漲很多餐廳現在一鍋一百塊都買不到對 它主要是食物主席你也跟我說一下為什麼你CPI看起來這麼低可是老百姓感覺物價一直漲主要是因為它石油還有一些材料的一些原物料它下降它下降的幅度因為這不是說屬於經常購買但是經常購買比較有譬如說水果它就"},{"start":145.825,"end":175.18,"text":"水果長很多 長很多 水果 蔬菜但是蔬菜它現在已經有逐漸緩和了蔬菜因為它現在颱風過後之後它去復根之後又逐漸都已經改善了所以現在是水果比較貴還有一些就是房租 醫療那現在就是我們的食物的部分就是平常每日在飲食的部分它是比較高那這個部分差不多2.64那2.64食物的部分 那個感覺就很大了"},{"start":175.7,"end":195.618,"text":"感覺不是1.25喔 1.25是整個的平均 跟老百姓有關是2.64食物的部分是2.64超過央行總裁的警戒性他是想2%啦所以我們能夠忍受的CPI大概2%了"},{"start":196.619,"end":209.401,"text":"是目前我們大概一到八月份是1.77左右啦1.77是1.77左右所以我們主要是因為譬如說紅列也漲啦來 我再問你另外一個題目"},{"start":212.884,"end":227.819,"text":"賴總統有說了 台灣之盾要打造這個T-DOM提到了要編一照的特別軍購條例請問這一照你開始編沒有"},{"start":229.02,"end":254.349,"text":"目前還沒有還沒有 那11月份就要提出來囉但是他要先提相關的條例經過會員來審查之後我們才會籌編那條例什麼時候開始出來你不知道目前他已經有在相關開會啦什麼時候可以出來這個我們可能要問一下國防部真正的日期是什麼時候 是這樣現在那個主席長如果數字有錯 請你指正我們的債務餘額5.8兆這個對不對"},{"start":260.624,"end":275.719,"text":"5.8兆因為它隨時是在變動的嘛這純料的概念沒有哪裡變動亂講純料的概念5.8兆是確定的那如果再加一兆那幾乎就是全部是舉債"},{"start":278.021,"end":287.527,"text":"6.8兆是什麼概念原來我們台灣人一個人平均的債務負擔25.6萬左右25 26萬左右就提高到29萬將近30萬這個東西很可怕 這個數字很可怕我跟委員報告我們縱使一兆也不是一年就一兆啦而是分差不多七年到十年我知道啦 可是這樣一年差不多一千"},{"start":304.019,"end":323.655,"text":"一千億左右那跟我們現在相關的一個負擔是差不多的啦所以它不是一次就一兆元不是這樣的啦你今天雞同鴨講的這個我現在跟你講存量你跟我講流量你那個每一年每一年那是流量的概念我現在跟你講存量的概念下來因為這個5.8兆是確定的"},{"start":326.477,"end":346.287,"text":"然後呢你再來加一兆那就變6.8兆這是不管幾年啦3年5年7年10年total就是一兆這個債務要負擔的但是每一年的稅入稅出的情形不一樣你又在講流量我跟你講存量嘛但是流量會影響到存量存量我跟你講存量就是我們"},{"start":347.407,"end":369.047,"text":"我們的所有的納稅 我們叫tax payer納稅人 現在不僅僅納稅人我們的小孩子 統統加起來一個人是29.6萬創歷史新高好 我再跟你講一個東西喔你現在來講的話因為大家關心你來大家就想到統籌分配稅款其實給地方政府是統籌加一般加計劃這三條錢加起來"},{"start":372.421,"end":393.108,"text":"你統籌分配數額多給了10100可是你拿回去2600實質上你就給地方1500而這裡面你們這裡面不知道怎麼去弄了動手腳還怎麼樣啊有9個縣市喔你原來這三個加起來比去年來少9個縣市是 對吧是 對嘛齁這9個是 哪9個啊"},{"start":399.298,"end":410.884,"text":"目前大概是有台南、彰化、嘉義縣、屏東縣、澎湖縣、基隆市、金門縣、連江縣還有嘉義縣台南市、彰化縣、嘉義縣、屏東縣、澎湖縣、基隆市、金門縣、連江縣、嘉義縣所以這九個縣市等於"},{"start":423.67,"end":437.968,"text":"等於115年 他的比114年都還低啊是對不對 那你換來怎麼辦我們希望說能夠在一般性補助款裡面能夠維持說他跟去年度一樣"},{"start":438.869,"end":458.85,"text":"但是計劃型就少了啊計劃型你把它扣掉了啊但是三項合起來維持114年度的額度就等於是說他計劃型少了就其他的會增加所以他總額度是不變的我問你這九個縣市不夠的部分你有沒有補他錢啊"},{"start":460.051,"end":475.316,"text":"對 我們預計是希望能夠透過一般性補償來跟他補補多少錢TOTAL至少補到跟114年度一樣全部多少錢啊 多少錢啊 全部多少錢這個部分我們還要看幾十億喔 我們請那個省紀長來主紀長請回"},{"start":484.731,"end":489.238,"text":"好 董委員好你好 沈縣長先恭喜你啦謝謝繼續努力啦要笑臉啦好 我們來看"},{"start":495.322,"end":517.914,"text":"我們現在很在乎的就是說我們拼命要買美國的武器錢付了 貨沒有到現在總共已經有200億美金付了但是沒有到這還有200億美金的貨沒有到比如說具體的就是你們的報告F16V特別預算"},{"start":518.954,"end":529.099,"text":"那時候省很清楚2500億的特別預算到今年的6月底匯出去47.2億美金總金額59.07億的六成總金額這個就是飛機的錢"},{"start":537.643,"end":564.228,"text":"第一架 原來說112年的1月出廠現在delay喔 到114年的Q1才出廠但是出廠是還在美國Q1出廠在美國所以第一架都還在美國那現在就是因為美國全世界看比較危險的烏克蘭就給他啦什麼地方危險給他 台灣就一直排後面台灣比較乖嘛"},{"start":565.441,"end":590.872,"text":"那美國說115年的Q3開始交115年的Q4交完可是萬一如果又delay因為一直delay了原來講112年1月份要出場現在改到14年delay了足足兩年請問你按照審計法如果特別預算我們這個條例到115年底要執行完畢如果那時候還沒有執行完畢怎麼辦"},{"start":593.144,"end":618.016,"text":"我們在結算法裡面有一個保留制度他可以執行完以後四年裡面可以列保留如果四年內還沒有用完呢四年內沒有要保留一般我們會通知他你已經到了結算法可以保留的日期你還要不要執行不執行的話我們會把他減列就收回啦"},{"start":619.116,"end":623.438,"text":"就把他收回 如果不執行就收回了對 如果不執行我們會他的整個檢討如果他已經做了這個可能給他一點點時間他可能就完成了那我們還會給他保留現在常常有那種國防部常常買飛機買什麼的買那個錢交了可是東西不來 審計部的意見怎麼樣"},{"start":641.488,"end":645.19,"text":"我們有像這個飛機這個我們說你錢已經付了飛機都沒來我們希望他不要按他的那個工程進度付錢所以我們檔下他差不多12億美金檔下12億美金366億台幣這個是我們最後小點"},{"start":664.804,"end":678.581,"text":"你要不要督促一下國防部我們講了半天了 國防部也不太理把軍售改成商售啦這樣子的話我們就可以降低對美的順差啦這個很重要啊 審計部要不要把這個列為你的審計重點"},{"start":679.542,"end":695.774,"text":"因為這個涉及國家的一個很大的政策你不敢講不是說不敢講因為要整個評估商售有商售的好處商售也有商售的毛病這整個風險也很大因為這個來講的話軍售的話我就沒辦法算在我的貿易順差裡面"},{"start":702.6,"end":706.726,"text":"我如果這樣一來的話 買的話我的貿易順差就會降低我的關稅不會被坑那麼高這個可能齁 那個貿易那個量的話齁去檢討那個可能比較壞去思考一下吧 好不好審計的意見放進來吧"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":239,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（9時41分）謝謝主席以及各位先進。有請主計長。"],["主席：請陳主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：你好。今年的GDP大概成長多少？"],["陳主計長淑姿：目前大概是4.45%，這是我們自己預估的，但是亞銀……"],["賴委員士葆：4.45%？但是還有幾個月嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：對。"],["賴委員士葆：你那個是8月底的嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，差不多。"],["賴委員士葆：那是8月底的數字嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["賴委員士葆：還要看9、10、11、12月的數字，這幾個月有一個變數，就是臺美或者美臺關稅在10月底川習會以後才會確定，這個會不會影響？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個也會影響，所以我們會逐漸緩和。"],["賴委員士葆：會比這個數字低還是高？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們預測應該也不會低很多，我們當初在評估的時候預估是比較低，但是現在有逐漸緩和，有上升的趨勢。"],["賴委員士葆：所以今年你的預估大概是4%左右？"],["陳主計長淑姿：4.45%將近4.5%。"],["賴委員士葆：4.45%是8月底預估的，我問的是今年底。"],["陳主計長淑姿：但是亞銀估的是5.1%。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼？"],["陳主計長淑姿：亞銀在估算的時候，對我們……"],["賴委員士葆：對我們估5.1%？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["賴委員士葆：你認為不會這麼高嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們應該也趨近啦！"],["賴委員士葆：4.45%是高估還是低估？你告訴我！"],["陳主計長淑姿：有一點低估。"],["賴委員士葆：4.45%是低估？"],["陳主計長淑姿：央行估的比我們還高。"],["賴委員士葆：央行估多少？"],["陳主計長淑姿：百分之四點五多。"],["賴委員士葆：百分之四點五多？這要持續注意啦！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["賴委員士葆：CPI指數現在看來很低，才1.25%，對吧？可是老百姓感覺物價漲很多耶！現在一個便當沒有100塊都買不到！"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，它主要是食物……"],["賴委員士葆：主計長，你跟我們講一下，為什麼CPI看起來這麼低，可是老百姓的感覺是物價一直漲？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這主要是因為石油還有一些原物料價格下降，它下降的幅度……但這不屬於經常購買，經常購買的部分讓人比較有感，譬如說水果……"],["賴委員士葆：水果漲很多喔！"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，水果、蔬菜……"],["賴委員士葆：水果很貴喔！"],["陳主計長淑姿：但是蔬菜價格現在已經逐漸緩和了，因為颱風過後，農民復耕，就逐漸改善了，所以現在是水果比較貴，還有一些就是房租、醫療。現在就是我們的食物的部分，也就是日常飲食的部分比較高，這個部分差不多是2.64%……"],["賴委員士葆：那個感覺就很大了！"],["陳主計長淑姿：對。"],["賴委員士葆：感覺不是1.25%喔！"],["陳主計長淑姿：1.25%是整個平均，但是……"],["賴委員士葆：整個啦，我知道。跟老百姓有關的是2.64%啦！"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，食物的部分是2.64%。"],["賴委員士葆：已經超過央行總裁的警戒線了。他是講2%，所以我們能夠忍受的CPI大概是2%。"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們1到8月份是1.77%左右。"],["賴委員士葆：1.77%？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，1.77%左右，所以我們主要是因為譬如說肉類也漲啦！是這樣子。"],["賴委員士葆：好，我再問你另外一個題目，賴總統說要打造臺灣之盾（T-Dome），而且要編列1兆元的軍購特別預算，請問這1兆你開始編了沒有？"],["陳主計長淑姿：目前還沒有。"],["賴委員士葆：他11月份就要提出來了喔！"],["陳主計長淑姿：但是它要先提相關的條例，經過貴院審查之後，我們才會籌編。"],["賴委員士葆：條例什麼時候開始出來，也不知道？"],["陳主計長淑姿：他們已經有在開相關會議，所以我們……"],["賴委員士葆：什麼時候可以出來？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個我們可能要問一下國防部真正的日期是什麼時候，是這樣。"],["賴委員士葆：主計長，如果數字有錯，請你指正。"],["陳主計長淑姿：好。"],["賴委員士葆：我們的債務餘額5.8兆，這個對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：債務餘額……"],["賴委員士葆：5.8兆。"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為它隨時是在變動的……"],["賴委員士葆：沒有、沒有，這存量的概念，沒有哪裡有變動，亂講！"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是啦！因為本身的……"],["賴委員士葆：存量的概念，5.8兆是確定的。如果再加1兆，幾乎就是全部是舉債，6.8兆是什麼概念？原來我們臺灣人一個人平均的債務負擔是25.6萬左右，25萬、26萬左右，結果提高到29萬將近30萬，這個東西很可怕，這個數字很可怕！"],["陳主計長淑姿：我跟委員報告，我們縱使1兆，也不是1年就1兆，而是分差不多7年到10年……"],["賴委員士葆：我知道，可是這是存量的概念啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：如果是這樣子，1年差不多是1,000億左右，跟我們現在相關的負擔是差不多的，所以它不是一次就1兆元，不是這樣的。"],["賴委員士葆：你今天雞同鴨講，我現在跟你講存量，你跟我講流量，你說的每一年、每一年，那是流量的概念，我現在跟你講存量的概念，因為這個5.8兆是確定的。"],["陳主計長淑姿：這是預計值……"],["賴委員士葆：然後你再加1兆，就變6.8兆，就是不管幾年，3年、5年、7年，10年，total就是1兆的債務要負擔，這是確定的，這是存量。"],["陳主計長淑姿：但是每一年歲入、歲出的情形不一樣，它是變動的。"],["賴委員士葆：你又在講流量，我跟你講存量嘛，你要搞清楚！"],["陳主計長淑姿：但是流量會影響到存量的部分。"],["賴委員士葆：我跟你講，存量就是我們所有的納稅，我們叫taxpayer，亦即納稅人，現在不僅僅納稅人，我們的小孩子通通加起來，一個人是29.6萬，創歷史新高！","我再跟你講一件事，因為大家很關心，你來，大家就想到統籌分配稅款，其實給地方政府是統籌加一般加計畫，這三條錢加起來，你統籌分配稅款多給了4,100億，可是你拿回去2,600億，實質上你只有給地方1,500億，而這裡面，你們在這裡面不知道怎麼去弄的，動手腳還是怎麼樣？有九個縣市，這三個錢加起來比去年還少，有九個縣市，對吧？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["賴委員士葆：對嘛！這九個是哪九個？"],["陳主計長淑姿：目前大概是有臺南、彰化、嘉義縣、屏東縣、澎湖縣、基隆市、金門縣、連江縣，還有嘉義市……"],["賴委員士葆：再講一遍好不好？因為我沒有聽清楚，你再講一遍這九個縣市。"],["陳主計長淑姿：臺南市、彰化縣、嘉義縣、屏東縣、澎湖縣、基隆市、金門縣、連江縣、嘉義市。"],["賴委員士葆：所以這九個縣市等於115年比114年都還低，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["賴委員士葆：後來你怎麼辦？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們希望在一般性補助款裡面能夠維持讓它跟去年度一樣。"],["賴委員士葆：但是計畫型就少啦！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，計畫型，但是……"],["賴委員士葆：計畫型，你把它扣掉了。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，但是三項合起來維持114年度的額度，等於是它計畫型少了，其他的就會增加，所以它總額度是不變的。"],["賴委員士葆：我問你，這九個縣市不夠的部分，你有沒有補它錢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，我們預計是希望能夠透過一般性補助來跟它補。"],["賴委員士葆：好，補多少錢？total。"],["陳主計長淑姿：至少補到跟114年度一樣。"],["賴委員士葆：不是，多少錢？全部多少錢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分我們還要看整個……"],["賴委員士葆：幾十億啦！","我們請審計長，主計長請回，謝謝。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：你好，審計長，先恭喜你。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：謝謝。"],["賴委員士葆：繼續努力，你還很年輕。","我們來看，我們現在很在乎的，我們拼命要買美國的武器，錢付了，但貨沒有到，現在總共金額200億美金付了，但是沒有到，還有200億美金的貨沒有到，比如具體的例子，就是你們報告提到的，F-16V特別預算，那時候審得很清楚，2,500億的特別預算，到今年6月底匯出去47.2億美金，總金額59.07億的六成，這個就是飛機的錢。第一架原來說112年1月出廠，現在delay，到114年的Q1才出廠，但是出廠是還在美國，Q1出廠在美國，所以第一架都還在美國，現在就是因為美國看全世界，比較危險的是烏克蘭，就給他了，什麼地方危險就給他，臺灣就一直擺後面，臺灣比較乖嘛。美國說115年的Q3開始交，115年的Q4交完，可是萬一又delay，又一直delay了，原來講112年1月份要出廠，現在改到114年，delay了足足兩年。請問你，按照審計法，這個特別預算條例到115年底要執行完畢，如果那時候還沒有執行完畢，怎麼辦？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們在決算法裡面有一個保留制度。"],["賴委員士葆：保留制度？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對，它執行完以後，4年裡面可以列保留。"],["賴委員士葆：如果4年內還沒有用完呢？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：如果4年內沒辦法，一般我們會通知它已經到了決算法可以保留的日期，問它還要不要執行，不執行的話，我們會把它減列。"],["賴委員士葆：就收回了，就把它收回，如果不執行就收回嘛！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對，如果不執行，我們會和它整個檢討，如果它已經做了，可能給它一點點時間，它可能就完成了，我們還會給它保留。"],["賴委員士葆：現在國防部常常買飛機、買什麼的，買了而錢交了，可是東西不來，審計部的意見怎麼樣？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：像飛機這個部分，我們說它錢已經付了，飛機都沒來，我們希望它不要按它的工程進度付錢，所以我們擋下它差不多12億美元……"],["賴委員士葆：擋下12億美金？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：366億的臺幣，這個是我們也有作為。"],["賴委員士葆：好，最後一小點，你要不要督促一下國防部，我們講了半天，國防部也不太理，把軍售改成商售，這樣子的話，我們就可以降低對美的順差，這一個很重要，審計部要不要把這個列為你的審計重點？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為這涉及國家一個很大的政策……"],["賴委員士葆：你不敢講？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：不是不敢講……"],["賴委員士葆：你要講啦！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為要整個評估過，商售有商售的好處，商售也有商售的毛病，這整個風險也很大。"],["賴委員士葆：因為以軍售來講，我就沒辦法算在我的貿易順差裡面，如果這樣一來的話，我買的話，我的貿易順差就會降低，我的關稅不會被課那麼高。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個貿易的量，去檢討那一個可能比較快。"],["賴委員士葆：你去思考一下吧，好不好？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["賴委員士葆：把審計的意見放進來。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：是。"],["主席：謝謝賴委員。","接下來我們請郭國文委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":182,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-2","speakers":["李坤城","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","鍾佳濱","李彥秀","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","羅明才","葉元之","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","林思銘","王世堅","陳玉珍"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1148401_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}