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有請主計長跟沈計長我們請陳沈計長 陳主計長"},{"start":18.715,"end":45.715,"text":"委員好兩位好我想今天問的問題跟兩位都直接相關可以的話就自由搏擊可以不用依序而來來第一個在總統其實在國慶的談話當中特別講了一句話讓人滿有感就是好的數字要變成好的生活才會有感但是好的生活要有感其實要落實在政策當中本席看一看其實兩位是關鍵的一個角色"},{"start":46.636,"end":56.579,"text":"你要如何讓人民有感第一個就是說你從數據來看那個從各種數據來看台灣目前幾乎是屬於史上最富有的一個年代"},{"start":57.779,"end":77.142,"text":"但是你看相關的數字最高20%的部分成長將近4倍人均的部分成長3.67倍平均薪資的部分成長2.27倍股市總值成長26.51倍但是最低20%的家庭財富minus 1%兩位你會不會覺得很有感經濟學所說的下盛的可能性幾乎在這個數字當中看不到"},{"start":86.912,"end":116.592,"text":"所以這裡頭過去這30年來相關的數字又增加這麼多政府不是沒有作為政府的作為在哪裡減稅 壽星階級 中產階級基本工資 勞工階級但是偏偏這一群人在社會安全網的網絡當中都沒有存在的他必須透過社會救助的體系而本溪在這次救災的過程當中非常的有感"},{"start":117.772,"end":143.942,"text":"有感覺說這個基層是增了很多社會邊緣戶增加很多所以說真正要強化任性的部分在社會安全網之外的部分的社會救助反而是非常重要我不曉得兩位有沒有去了解過到底台灣目前有多少的窮人貧窮性的定義在哪裡我現在隨便抓一下最近媒體報導韓國需要救助的下流老人高達40%"},{"start":145.763,"end":150.588,"text":"OECD當中最高 連日本就20可是台灣這個部分都沒有統計兩位長官 是不是要面對一下這個問題"},{"start":157.677,"end":183.866,"text":"我們對這個漢委員的想法有同感我們發現福利政策綱領這個貧窮線這個問題十幾年沒有修我們一直通知他通知衛福部要去檢討他衛福部我們還是在因為現在的熱術通知不要推給衛福部的感覺因為這個是要修福利政策綱領"},{"start":185.006,"end":195.539,"text":"那要去面對這個問題嘛那個主委長 衛福部你也可以有機會跟他說啊你去看 我讓你看一下數字整個低收入戶的這個數字啊年年減少"},{"start":197.745,"end":222.69,"text":"从1.46到1.13我都很怀疑主计长是不是要控管这个金流有关系控管预算有关系你去看整个台湾的这个贫穷率只有1.5%只有1.5%欧洲德国的部分有16.7%法国有14.2%瑞典有15%美国相当于11%我们才是人家的1%而已很难有可能"},{"start":223.59,"end":251.292,"text":"我也不相信嘛這定義的問題嘛你如果去參照國外的經驗一般而言從社會安全網絡的角度最基礎的部分大概人口數的10%大概10%而我們低收入戶占人口數的只有1.13%而已加中低收入只有2.26%總共有50幾萬如果從整個最低最低的資產剛剛講的那20%30年來薪資沒有變而且又縮水的部分至少500萬"},{"start":252.759,"end":269.979,"text":"也對他人口數大概是10%我已經講這麼多主席長妳該發揮一下了吧是 這個部分我也在跟委員報告就是有相對的貧窮率這個我們算了大概是7.57那當然因為像美國他是比較多是18.1日本是15.4"},{"start":271.36,"end":298.769,"text":"南韩是14.9%这所谓的相对的贫穷率但是我们一般我们都是就20%和最低20%和最高20%之间的一个差异我们倍数我们都譬如说我们个人是维持在3.92%然后家庭是维持在6.11%将近10倍统计都是你在统计的啦你的相对贫穷率这个那个预算中心也帮你"},{"start":299.429,"end":317.302,"text":"算过大概是6到7%6到7%都比你现在一点多还高很多 对不对所以你们基本上不敢松绑第一码又不肯修法嘛喊了十几年了都没有变所以说100年来左右的差不多100户左右的弱势边缘户你要去怎么处理"},{"start":318.827,"end":332.045,"text":"一定要要求这个问题像我们今年长照的部分我们长照2.0十人集到长照3.0我们就增加了227亿长照有增加我没有错我现在跟你谈的社会救助"},{"start":333.186,"end":349.155,"text":"救助的部分這個部分我們也是都是盡量能夠希望說能夠來擴大範圍來給予補助那個沈院長主席長我再跟你講你去看喔整個關鍵在哪裡就政府把省錢當成最高的美德不會花錢"},{"start":350.632,"end":378.78,"text":"政府支出不足 我算数字给你看中央政府占GDP的比重我国政府只有占11%加地方政府才是17%这数字没有错吧OECD的国家是平均44%主席长你不要再当灭绝师太了本席也不会要求你当财神也只是一定要当个王母娘娘可不可以普度终身一下"},{"start":381.664,"end":406.36,"text":"人家平均OECD是14%日本去年39.4%我們不是先進國家嗎我們不是財政很好嗎你每天都說要還債我跟你講債務的數字好了馬英九2012的時候最高的數字政府的財政最慘所有GDP的39.5是最近法定數字的45我們現在多少"},{"start":408.069,"end":414.294,"text":"25對不對還是23 24對啊 20出頭耶這種情況底下我們明明有錢嘛不是沒有錢嘛我們是經濟高成長低負債的情況底下為什麼要扣這些窮人的錢呢"},{"start":428.174,"end":446.305,"text":"這丟臉你知道嗎所以要如何讓總統這句話真正的落實美好的數字可以轉化成美好的日子你有責任啊兩位有責任啊一個是源頭管理一個是事後監督啊"},{"start":448.366,"end":476.147,"text":"審計長你最後寫報告了你這一部分能不能寫一份報告給本席一個月審計長 審計長 還有主計長誰要負責我們來寫好 審計長你來寫寫有效的一種方式站在一個審計觀點當中要求這些相關部會讓總統的這個美意得以落實得以落實美好的數字竟然沒有辦法落實到美好的生活20%的人30年來過的日子都一樣越來越慘"},{"start":481.289,"end":505.417,"text":"這真的很丟臉你知道嗎還有一個部分基礎建設的部分錢要花在刀口上要花在刀口上那個省議長你現在在107年之前你都說推動了18年我們共同管溝的部分才完成了614.9公里對不對這顯然不夠嘛台灣的過去花了那麼多特別預算"},{"start":506.417,"end":522.963,"text":"在做了很多所謂的前瞻計畫那顯然是不足嘛你是不是從審計的觀點來去做一個整體的檢討來認為台灣現在需要的前瞻的這個計畫是什麼這才是真正強化社會韌性啊我們強化社會韌性有兩種工程"},{"start":523.723,"end":548.621,"text":"一種是法制的工程 一個是硬體的工程我剛剛跟你講的是一個法制面的一個工程這是強化社會韌性另外是硬體面的一個工程 強化社會韌性所以說呢 我們剛剛從一個法制面的現在從一個硬體面的能不能請那個 沈院長你也待了這麼久 你未來還會待六年你接下來這一份報告當中 你有機會追六年"},{"start":550.077,"end":568.268,"text":"主席長 你的任期也會相當的久我希望你能夠轉變一下角色你看喔 除了共同廣告之外我們強化能源的這個部分這一次因為那個斷電 斷訊很多 這個都是在基礎建設的時候可以用 對不對"},{"start":569.383,"end":597.782,"text":"有沒有 那個這部分我還是要再請那個審計長你從你過去的一些長期以來在審計部門也曾經在主計部門待過的角色當中你再寫一份報告可以不可以可以 這兩份報告寫出來我們來建構一個屬於法治面的一個社會韌性還有一個基礎工程面的社會韌性把錢花在刀口上那我也請主計長改變一下角色不要再當滅絕師太"},{"start":600.163,"end":627.871,"text":"當一下王母娘娘好不好然後最後呢你現在就可以當王母娘娘最後一個你看我們最近的一個特別條例喔丹奈斯颱風的特別條例第一筆用到的錢就用在花蓮丹奈斯颱風耶用在花蓮在車輛受損的部分就五萬然後機車就有一萬放在台南的時候情何以堪台南中央沒有拿到任何錢而且地方給一萬跟五千耶"},{"start":630.138,"end":634.083,"text":"這個部分他有增加250億啦他增加30億現在就動用了對 他在30億的預備金當中動用了1億那既然30億裡頭可以動用到花蓮為什麼不能動用到台南你們"},{"start":647.2,"end":666.802,"text":"請主席長跟相關部會講一下思考一下把這些一樣要用在刀口上把這個特別條例或強化社會韌性條例當中構思一下同時在進行所謂的社會工程的這個韌性的建構還有法治工程的一個社會韌性的建構有沒有可能"},{"start":668.035,"end":677.629,"text":"我不相信這兩個特別條例下去之後這兩種社會任性就可以建立起來我不相信但是從這兩個特別條例開始然後再從那個審議長這兩個報告繼續延續好不好好 感謝兩位"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":368,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（9時53分）謝謝主席。有請主計長跟審計長。"],["主席：我們請陳審計長、陳主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員好。"],["郭委員國文：兩位好。我想今天問的問題跟兩位都直接相關，可以的話，就自由回答，可以不用依序而來。第一個，總統其實在國慶的談話當中，特別講一句話讓人滿有感，就是好的數字要變成好的生活才會有感，但是好的生活要有感，其實要落實在政策當中。本席看一看，其實兩位是關鍵的角色，你要如何讓人民有感？第一個，你從各種數據來看，臺灣目前幾乎是屬於史上最富有的一個年代，但是你看相關的數字，最高20%的部分，成長將近4倍，人均的部分成長3.67倍，平均薪資的部分成長2.27倍，股市總值成長26.56倍，但是最低20%的家庭財富minus 1%。兩位，你會不會覺得很有感？經濟學所說下滲的可能性，幾乎在這個數字當中看不到，所以過去這30年來，相關的數字又增加這麼多，政府不是沒有作為，政府的作為在哪裡？減稅之於受薪階級、中產階級，基本工資之於勞工階級，但偏偏這一群人在社會安全網的網絡當中是沒有存在的，必須透過社會救助體系！本席對這次救災過程非常有感，有感於基層弱勢增加了很多，社會邊緣戶增加很多。所以真正要強化的韌性部分，其實社會安全網之外的社會救助反而非常重要。我不曉得兩位有沒有去了解過，到底目前臺灣有多少窮人？貧窮線的定義在哪裡？我現在隨便抓一下，最近媒體報導，韓國需要救助的下流老人高達40%，是OECD國家中最高的。日本只有20%，但臺灣對這部分並沒有統計，兩位長官是不是要面對一下這個問題？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們對委員的想法有同感！我們發現福利政策綱領的貧窮線問題已經十幾年沒有修，我們一直通知衛福部要檢討，但衛福部……因為現在的弱勢只會越弱勢……"],["郭委員國文：要通知，但不要變成推給衛福部！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為這個需要修福利政策綱領。"],["郭委員國文：那就去面對這個問題！主計長，你有機會也可以跟衛福部說啊！我讓你看一個數字，低收入戶的數字年年減少，從1.46%降到1.13%，我很懷疑是不是跟主計長要控管金流、控管預算有關！你去看，整個臺灣的貧窮率只有1.5%，只有1.5%，但在歐洲，德國有16.7%，法國有14.2%，瑞典有15%，美國相當於11%，我們才人家的1%而已，哪有可能？我不相信！這是定義問題！如果參照國外經驗，一般而言，從社會安全網的角度來看，最基礎的大概是人口數的10%，而我們的低收入戶只占人口數的1.13%，加上中低收入戶只有2.26%，總共五十幾萬。從最低資產，即剛剛講的20%來看，30年來薪資不僅沒有變，而且又縮水，這部分至少有500萬，大概是人口數的10%。我已經講了這麼多，主計長，你該發揮一下了吧？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，這部分我跟委員報告，其實有相對的貧窮率，我們也算了大概是7.57%。像美國比較多，18.1%，日本是15.4%，南韓是14.9%，這是所謂的相對貧窮率。"],["郭委員國文：對啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：但一般都是取最低的20%和最高的20%之間的差異。至於倍數方面，個人部分我們維持在3.92，家庭維持在6.11……"],["郭委員國文：將近10倍，而且統計都是你在統計的！你的相對貧窮率預算中心也幫你算過，大概是6%到7%……"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，差不多。"],["郭委員國文：6%到7%都比你現在的一點多還高很多，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對。"],["郭委員國文：所以你們基本上不敢鬆綁定義，又不肯修法，喊了十幾年了都沒有變！"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有……"],["郭委員國文：這差不多一百萬左右的弱勢邊緣戶，你要怎麼處理？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我要跟委員……"],["郭委員國文：我要求一定要面對這個問題！"],["陳主計長淑姿：像今年長照的部分，從長照2.0升級到長照3.0，我們就增加了227億……"],["郭委員國文：長照有增加，沒有錯，但我現在跟你談的是社會救助！"],["陳主計長淑姿：社會救助的部分，我們也希望能夠儘量擴大範圍，給予補助。"],["郭委員國文：主計長，我跟你講，你去看關鍵在哪裡！也就是政府把省錢當成最高的美德，不會花錢，政府支出不足！我算數字給你看，以中央政府支出占GDP的比重來說，我國政府只占11%，加上地方政府才17%，這數字沒有錯吧？但OECD國家平均是44%！"],["陳主計長淑姿：可是我們要有一個方向……"],["郭委員國文：主計長，你不要再當滅絕師太了！本席也不會要求你當財神爺，不過要當王母娘娘，可不可以？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們儘量。"],["郭委員國文：普渡眾生一下！我們才11%，OECD平均是44%，日本去年是39.4%，我們不是先進國家嗎？我們的財政不是很好嗎？你每天都說要還債？好，我跟你講債務數字好了。","馬英九執政時，2012年政府財政是最慘的，占所有GDP的39.5%，是最接近法定數字的45%，我們現在才多少？"],["陳主計長淑姿：二十六點多。"],["郭委員國文：25%，對不對？還是23%？24%？"],["陳主計長淑姿：二十六點多。"],["郭委員國文：對啊！二十出頭耶！這種情況，我們明明有錢，不是沒有錢。我們是在經濟高成長、低負債的情況底下，為什麼苛這些窮人的錢呢？丟臉，你知道嗎？所以要如何真正落實總統的這一句話？美好的數字可以轉化成美好的生活日子，你有責任啊，兩位有責任啊！一個是源頭管理，一個是事後監督。審計長，這部分你能不能寫一份報告給本席？一個月？審計長還有主計長，誰要負責？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們來寫。"],["郭委員國文：好，審計長來寫，寫有效的一種方式，站在審計觀點來要求相關部會，讓總統的美意得以落實。美好的數字竟然沒有辦法落實到美好的生活？有20%的人三十年來過的日子都一樣，而且越來越慘，這真的很丟臉，你知道嗎？","還有，基礎建設的錢要花在刀口上。審計長，你在107年之前，你說有關共同管道的部分已經推動了十八年，才完成614.9公里，對不對？顯然不夠！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：不夠。"],["郭委員國文：臺灣過去花了那麼多特別預算，也做了很多前瞻計畫，但顯然還是不足。所以你是不是應該從審計觀點來做整體的檢討？你認為臺灣現在需要的前瞻計畫是什麼？這才是真正強化社會韌性。強化社會韌性有兩種工程：一種是法制的工程，一個是硬體的工程。我剛剛跟你講的是法制面的工程，這是強化社會韌性；另外一個則是硬體面工程的強化社會韌性。我們剛剛從法制面來看，現在從硬體面來看。審計長，你也待了這麼久，未來你還會待六年，接下來的這份報告你有機會追六年。至於主計長，你的任期也會相當久，所以我希望你能夠轉變一下角色。除了共同管道之外，在強化能源的部分，這一次斷電、斷訊的狀況很多，這些都在基礎建設時可以用，對不對？有沒有？"],["陳主計長淑姿：有。"],["郭委員國文：所以這部分我還是要再請教審計長，畢竟你長期以來待在審計部門，過去也曾經在主計部門待過，以你待過的角色再寫一份報告，可不可以？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：可以。"],["郭委員國文：可以？這兩份報告寫出來，就能建構一個屬於法制面的社會韌性，還有基礎工程面的社會韌性，把錢花在刀口上！同時我也要請主計長改變一下角色，不要再當滅絕師太，當一下王母娘娘，好不好？","其實你現在就可以當王母娘娘了。最後一個你看，最近的特別條例──丹娜絲颱風特別條例，第一筆用到的錢卻是用在花蓮。這是丹娜絲颱風特別條例，但針對花蓮車輛受損部分可以有五萬，機車一萬，這叫臺南情何以堪？臺南沒有從中央拿到任何錢，而且地方只給一萬跟五千。"],["陳主計長淑姿：這部分有增加250億，預計要增加250億。"],["郭委員國文：他增加30億，現在就動用了。"],["陳主計長淑姿：這是30億是當初的預備金。"],["郭委員國文：對，在30億的預備金當中動用了1億，既然30億都能拿到花蓮了，為什麼不能動用給臺南？能不能請主計長跟相關部會講一下，思考一下，這些一樣要用在刀口上，構思一下特別條例與強化社會韌性條例，同時來進行社會工程的韌性建構及法制工程的社會韌性建構，有沒有可能？我不相信這兩個特別條例下去之後，這兩種社會韌性就可以建立起來，我不相信！但是可以從這兩個特別條例開始，再由審計長的兩個報告繼續延續，好不好？感謝兩位。"],["主席：謝謝郭委員。審計長，這兩份相關報告於一個月內再給郭委員。","接下來請賴惠員委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":182,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-2","speakers":["李坤城","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","鍾佳濱","李彥秀","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","羅明才","葉元之","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","林思銘","王世堅","陳玉珍"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1148401_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}