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主席 在場的委員先進列席的政府青山市長官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生我們請行政院主計總處陳主計長還有負責統計的看事三位處長綜合統計國事普查主計資訊三位處長來協助一下我們主計長委員好等一下三位好 主計長好 三位處長好"},{"start":43.905,"end":51.488,"text":"主席長 人家說家有一老 爐有一寶請問故宮有國寶 人民家裡有什麼寶人民家裡的老人是什麼是領國民年金的保險我們一般說國寶 國寶不是說那個故宮的國寶你如果說你家裡有一個老大人 他是念國寶的我要請教你 你覺得他是不是寶你對國民年金了解嗎"},{"start":74.578,"end":85.888,"text":"來我跟你講一下一般人他如果沒有受雇沒有勞軍公教勞農保都沒有尤其是家庭主婦他在六十歲之前每個月要繳一千兩百四十五的保費"},{"start":87.342,"end":108.737,"text":"這是國民年金的保費然後健保要繳826一個月要負擔的健保加國保要負2000 超過2000但是超過65歲以上之後他只要繼續繳800多塊的保費然後平均每個月可以領幾副領差不多4000請問這樣的老人是不是國保是"},{"start":112.164,"end":125.475,"text":"我們現在回到今天正題我們主要是說我們要努力的提升但是很奇怪現在我們明年度的總預算現在在野黨還給你鴿子他們說什麼問題 為什麼鴿子"},{"start":129.807,"end":147.584,"text":"他們說去年通過兩個法要提高軍人待遇要提高警校退休給付沒有編載明年的預算然後就開始說怎樣要修財化法財化法是財政部管的對不對結果是你遭殃總預算他放在哪裡問題在我們往下看"},{"start":149.025,"end":166.862,"text":"我們整個財化法的精神我們年度總預算的編列是不是中央協助地方分攤人民的負擔是不是這樣子是人民的負擔嘛人民要繳健保保費嘛人民要繳國保保費嘛然後呢這個時候呢地方政府來幫人民分攤嘛"},{"start":167.677,"end":191.651,"text":"然後呢地方政府力有未待的我們中央政府來協助嘛這個是不是就是說你一般性補助款的精神你地方政府要幫人民負擔的就是你的支出在一般性補助款當中我中央考慮到你的能力有差異所以呢我就能力強的我給你協助少一點能力低的我給你協助多一點是不是這樣這是才華的精神嘛那你們也是根據這個方式來籌編預算嘛好往下看好現在我們看一下剛剛的國保"},{"start":194.159,"end":216.345,"text":"65歲以上的話你來看現在的勞動人口政府跟僱主幫他分攤七成的保費他自己分攤三成的保費如果說是沒有僱主的地方政府補助健保四成的保費中央政府補助四成的保費他自己要負擔六成的保費政府的這個是誰出 中央政府出嗎"},{"start":217.594,"end":244.443,"text":"是不是這樣 健保保衛是不是政府自稱是中央政府嘛中央政府對不對 但是地方政府現在有的很好捏他說你後來的這六成呢你吃六萬 我給你倒分攤啦 有沒有有沒有哪個縣市政府說你的六成啊我地方政府也幫你出 有沒有有嘛 對不對那能夠幫人民分攤這六成的地方政府財政好不好"},{"start":246.302,"end":271.577,"text":"怎麼不好 他不好他怎麼幫他分攤四成是中央分攤 六成是人民分攤但是六十五歲之後有的地方政府說六十五歲 阿娜 你的六成不用分攤我幫你出能夠這樣講的地方財政好不好可以這樣講的地方的財政好不好一定夠好嘛 你就不跟我說他好他才敢幫他分攤嘛那像屏東不好的敢這樣講嗎"},{"start":275.017,"end":290.235,"text":"所以我要問你的是說如果地方政府財政好到可以幫老人家分攤他的健保自負額你覺得這個地方政府還需要中央協助嗎應該不需要鬥了這半天你才聽得懂 往下看"},{"start":291.961,"end":318.85,"text":"來 我們政府要協助什麼最弱勢的嘛所以地方政府他如果財力允許他人民的致富的七成當 六成當中他會從什麼 深藏啦 中低啦 對不對這些人都很可憐嘛所以地方政府如果財政窘迫他沒辦法出嘛我們中央要一般性補助協助他嘛如果他的財源充裕我們中央政府怎樣直接幫 我們他就直接幫助弱勢了嘛是不是這樣 往下看"},{"start":319.79,"end":342.859,"text":"所以我們來舉例大家可不可以聽說長庚集團人家說台塑有四寶這哪四寶嗎台塑台亞我就不用念了誰最大長庚的總管理數最大因為當年王永慶把台塑四寶的股票10%以上都放在哪裡長庚的總管理數長庚的總管理數是台塑四寶的大老闆"},{"start":344.056,"end":359.557,"text":"那長庚的各分院你還想如果是長庚的各分院如果他財政分院比較差的總管理署給他支持對不對那如果說現在呢把這個股票直接交給分院分院就不叫總院了嘛是不是這樣子"},{"start":360.666,"end":377.253,"text":"所以我發現啊 才化法啊中央統籌呢 本來在我們中央嘛現在呢 地方政府說你國票都給我啦 你不用給我鼓勵啦你國票給我 我就不用給我補助啊是不是這樣 有嗎 有這樣講嗎現在4165億給了地方政府了統籌分給他了 他說 你不用給我補助啊你國票都給我 我不用你給我補助我直接拿國票 國金就夠了 這樣可以嗎"},{"start":386.414,"end":410.652,"text":"原則上是這樣啦 但是事實上不是現在要求要一般性補助要維持嘛對嘛 對不對 我這樣講沒有錯吧本來長庚醫院總管理處有台塑世保的股票每年有很多的股息 對不對你各個地方的長庚分院財政差的我就支持你嘛現在你的股票都給我了股息我就自己領了 還需要你中央嗎"},{"start":412.251,"end":436.36,"text":"應該是不需要啦原則上應該不用好 結果我們來看現在呢我們送進來的最新版的才化法這個陳雪珍說345億公司設算錯誤分配不出去對不對怎麼辦大部分這345億是不是應該給離島的居多嘛是好 那我們來看一下往下看現在有個精明人主張這345億應該給誰"},{"start":440.323,"end":464.444,"text":"給每人每月領不到4000塊的國保年金的這些被保險人老人基本保證年金是4049這法律裡面算出來的這人要照顧嗎所以近明年他說 往下看他說全台灣有國保年金212.5萬的人每個月領不到這麼多錢"},{"start":466.667,"end":485.491,"text":"好 那如果我們他把他這樣排戶跟什麼限制呢他就可以補到8000你覺得可行嗎要不要照顧是要照顧的你現在能夠再挪出345億來照顧這些人嗎沒有辦法挪不出來 啊怎麼辦這些人要不要照顧 往下看現在這345億我考你啦"},{"start":489.554,"end":502.479,"text":"有一個方法是說把公司設算改正了就給離島的39萬人你支持嗎這一個第二個說現在有反年金改革退休的公教人員包括警校提高待遇這大概50萬人"},{"start":504.312,"end":533.319,"text":"另外還有呢國保年金幾戶領不到八千塊的有兩百萬人你猜猜看你問你家的老人問你家的國保你覺得如果你有三百四十億多出來他會因要求政府先優先照顧誰照顧三十九萬的離島人口照顧五十二萬的軍工教退休人員還是照顧每個月領不到八千的國保年金的國保來原則上是讓你自由發揮一下應該是要優先照顧那個"},{"start":535.066,"end":562.018,"text":"沒有領滿八千的啦領不到八千的嘛那如果說我們財化法說這三百四十五億修法說用來照顧這個國民年金的兩百萬人你支不支持可不可以支持我們財化法現在三百四十五億分不出去了啊金平田說乾脆修法啦分給這些人讓他們每個月可以領到八千先不講法 講你的個人的情感"},{"start":563.083,"end":587.612,"text":"妳覺得 妳會認同嗎如果能夠給老年的幾戶增加我覺得這也是非常不可啦只是說以目前來修法的一個方向大概是不可行啦法是誰訂的立法院訂的立法院訂的如果增加支出行政院要申請釋憲如果立法院訂的法說要照顧老人家 妳會反對嗎不會嘛"},{"start":590.683,"end":614.414,"text":"所以怎麼去定這個法怎麼讓國家有限的財源去照顧最需要照顧的人是不是你們組織總是要支持的那你怎麼知道誰最需要照顧你後面站一排人來看下一張你去算一下這些領定期退伍給予的這些人有多少人年齡分布怎麼樣他每個月收多少錢收五萬六萬七萬你把它算出來"},{"start":615.792,"end":644.108,"text":"離島的人口有多少人他們的財富分佈所得分佈你算出來現在在領國民年金給付的有多少人他們的財富分佈你給他算出來用這個數字告訴人民誰最需要照顧最辛苦的人最需要照顧還是那些月齡五六萬週休七日日遊七國 週遊列國的人需要照顧主席長知道我的意思了沒有是"},{"start":645.347,"end":655.608,"text":"這個知道什麼時候可以給我這個部分必須要由地方來提供因為我們統計調查都是屬於抽樣那抽樣的東西你算不出來嗎 你不能跟考試院要嗎"},{"start":656.98,"end":682.132,"text":"你算不出來嗎沒有關係你要負責讓全國人民知道離島的人口軍公教退休人口領國保的200萬人口他們的財富情況如何所得狀況如何誰最需要領多一點可不可以你要怎麼做你的事情本席要求你一個月內提供可不可以"},{"start":683.7,"end":702.836,"text":"不是盡量 絕對要提供要讓人民知道政府有欠的稅金要花在誰身上要花在國寶身上家有一老 爐有一寶這個寶是周遊竊國 周遊欺國還是月領不到四千想清楚 然後跟人民說明白 好不好好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":455,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（10時17分）主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。請行政院主計總處陳主計長，還有負責統計的綜合統計處、國勢普查處、主計資訊處等3位處長來協助一下主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：等一下3位。主計長好，3位處長好。主計長，人家說「家有一老，如有一寶」，請問：故宮有國寶，人民家裡有什麼寶？人民家裡的老人是什麼？是領國民年金的保險。我們一般說的「國保」，不是說故宮的「國寶」。如果家裡有一位老人家是領國保的，我要請教，你覺得他是寶嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你對國民年金了解嗎？我跟你講一下，一般人如果沒有受僱，軍公教勞農的保險都沒有，尤其是家庭主婦，他在65歲之前每個月要繳1,245元國民年金的保費，健保要繳826元，一個月要負擔的健保加國保超過2,000元；但是超過65歲以上之後，他只要繼續繳八百多塊的保費，然後平均每個月可以領給付差不多4,000元。請問這樣的老人是不是國寶？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是國寶，好，我們來看一下。回到今天的正題：財劃法事權劃分、財源均衡。卓院長是說我們要努力地提升，但是很奇怪，明年度的總預算現在在野黨還擱著，他們說是什麼問題？為什麼擱著？他們說去年通過兩個法要提高軍人待遇、要提高警消退休給付，沒有編在明年的預算，然後就開始說要修財劃法。財劃法是財政部管的，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：結果是你遭殃，總預算被放在那裡啊！我們再往下看，根據整個財劃法的精神，年度總預算的編列是不是中央協助、地方分擔人民的負擔？是不是這樣子？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：講到人民的負擔，人民要繳健保保費，要繳國保保費，這個時候地方政府幫人民分擔，地方政府力有未逮的則由中央政府協助，這個是不是一般性補助款的精神？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：地方政府要幫人民負擔的，就是在一般性補助款當中，中央考慮到地方的能力有差異，對於能力強的就協助少一點，對於能力低的就協助多一點，是不是這樣？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這是財劃法的精神嘛？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們也是根據這個方式來籌編預算嘛？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，往下看。我們看一下剛剛的國保，65歲以上的部分，以現在的勞動人口，政府及雇主幫他們分擔七成的保費，自己分擔三成的保費；如果是沒有雇主的，中央政府補助健保四成的保費，自己負擔六成的保費，政府的是誰出？中央政府出，是不是這樣？健保保費四成是中央政府分擔，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：中央政府。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是地方政府現在有的很好，對於後來的這六成，如果人民年滿65歲，地方政府要幫忙分擔，有沒有？有沒有哪個縣市政府說這六成，地方政府也幫忙出，有沒有？"],["陳主計長淑姿：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有嘛，對不對？能夠幫人民分擔這六成的地方政府，財政好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不見得好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：怎麼不好？如果不好，怎麼幫人民分擔？四成是中央分擔，六成是人民分擔，但是有的地方政府說，年滿65歲者的六成不用自己分擔，由地方政府幫他們出，能夠這樣講的，地方財政好不好？能夠這樣講的，地方的財政好不好？一定很好嘛，你就不敢講。它的財政好，才敢幫人民分擔嘛！像屏東這種不好的，敢這樣講嗎？不敢嘛。所以我要問你的是，如果地方政府財政好到可以幫老人家分擔他的健保自付額，你覺得這個地方政府還需要中央協助嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：應該不需要。"],["鍾委員佳濱：應該不需要了嘛。「鬥」了這半天，你才聽得懂。往下看。政府要協助什麼？最弱勢的，所以地方政府如果財力允許，人民自付額的六成當中，會從身障、中低開始幫忙，對不對？因為這些人都很可憐。所以地方政府如果財政窘迫，沒辦法出，中央就用一般性補助協助它；如果它的財源充裕，就直接幫助弱勢了，是不是這樣？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：往下看。所以我們來舉例，不知道大家有沒有聽說，以長庚集團為例，人家說台塑有四寶，你知道是哪四寶嗎？台塑、南亞……我就不用念了。誰最大？長庚的總管理處最大，因為當年王永慶把台塑四寶10%以上的股票都放在長庚的總管理處，所以長庚的總管理處是台塑的大老闆。長庚的各分院如果財政比較差的，總管理處會給予支持，對不對？如果現在把股票直接交給分院，分院就不需要總院了，是不是這樣子？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我發現財劃法的狀況是，統籌本來在中央，現在地方政府說：你把股票都給我，就不用給我股利，不用給我補助了。是不是這樣？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有這樣講嗎？現在4,165億給地方政府了，統籌分配款給它了，它說中央不必給它補助了，只要把股票都給它，它直接拿股票的股金就足夠了，這樣可以嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：原則上是這樣，但是事實上不是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有嘛。"],["陳主計長淑姿：現在要求一般性補助要維持。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，我這樣講沒有錯吧？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：本來長庚總管理處有台塑四寶的股票，每年有很多的股息，對不對？各個地方的長庚分院財政差的，總管理處就支持它，現在股票都給分院了，股息就自己領了，還需要你中央嗎？應該是不需要了。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，原則上應該不用。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。我們來看現在送進來的最新版財劃法，陳雪生委員說345億公式設算錯誤，分配不出去，對不對？怎麼辦？這345億大部分是不是應該給離島的居多？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們來看一下，現在經民連主張這345億應該給每人每月領不到4,000塊國保年金的被保險人。老人基本保證年金是4,049，這是法律裡面算出來的，這些人要不要被照顧？"],["陳主計長淑姿：需要。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以經民連說，全臺灣國保年金被保險人有212.5萬人每個月領不到這麼多錢，如果加上排富及什麼限制，就可以補到8,000，你覺得可行嗎？要不要照顧？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是要照顧，但是財源……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你現在能夠再挪出345億來照顧這些人嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有辦法。"],["鍾委員佳濱：挪不出來？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那要怎麼辦？對這些人要不要照顧？我們往下看，現在有這筆345億，我考你啦！有一個方法是說把設算的公式改正了，就給離島的39萬人，你支持嗎？這是第一個。第二個，現在有反年金改革，退休的公教人員包括警消的提高待遇，這大概有52萬人，另外還有國保年金給付領不到8,000塊的有200萬人，你猜猜看，你問你家的老人，問你家投保國保的人，你覺得如果你有多出345億，他會要求政府優先照顧誰？照顧39萬的離島人口，照顧52萬的軍公教退休人員，還是照顧每個月領不到8,000元國民年金的人？讓你自由發揮一下。"],["陳主計長淑姿：原則上應該是要優先照顧沒有領滿8,000元的弱勢者。"],["鍾委員佳濱：就是領不到8,000元的人嘛！如果我們的財劃法修法用這345億來照顧領不到8,000元國民年金的200萬人，你支不支持？可不可以支持？我們財劃法現在這345億分不出去了，經民連說乾脆修法分給這些人，讓他們每個月可以領到8,000元，先不講法，講你個人的情感，你會認同嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：如果能夠增加老年的給付，我覺得這也未嘗不可，只是以目前修法的方向來說，大概是不可行啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：法是誰定的？是立法院定的，立法院定的法如果要增加支出，行政院要聲請釋憲，如果立法院定的法說要照顧老人家，你會反對嗎？不會嘛！所以怎麼去定這個法，怎麼用國家有限的財源去照顧最需要照顧的人，是不是你們主計總處要支持的？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那你怎麼知道誰最需要照顧？你後面有站一排人，我們看下一張。你去算一下這些領定期退撫給與的人有多少人、年齡分布是怎麼樣、他們每個月是領5萬、6萬、7萬或多少錢，你把這些都算出來；還有離島的人口有多少人、他們的財富分布和所得分布，你也算出來；現在在領國民年金給付的有多少人、他們的財富分布，你也算出來。然後用這些數字告訴人民誰最需要照顧，最辛苦的人最需要照顧？還是那些月領五、六萬然後週休7日、周遊列國的人需要照顧？主計長，你知道我的意思了嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這個資料什麼時候可以給我？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分必須要由地方來提供，因為我們的統計、調查都是屬於抽樣，那抽樣的東西……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你算不出來嗎？你不能跟考試院要嗎？你算不出離島人口嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：只能算總數，但是沒有辦法做細項。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有關係，你要負責讓全國人民知道，包括離島的人口、軍公教退休人口、領國保的200萬人口，他們的財富情況如何、所得狀況如何、誰最需要領多一點，可不可以？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分我們必須要譬如說跟勞保局去要……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你要怎麼做是你的事情，本席要求你一個月內提供，可不可以？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，我們儘量來提供。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是儘量，是絕對要提供。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：要讓人民知道政府有限的稅金要花在誰身上，要花在領國保的人身上，因為家有一老、如有一寶，這個寶是周遊列國還是月領不到4,000元的人？要想清楚，然後跟人民說明白，好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鍾委員，對鍾委員要的報告，請主計長在一個月之內提供。","接下來我們請李彥秀委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":182,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-2","speakers":["李坤城","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","鍾佳濱","李彥秀","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","羅明才","葉元之","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","林思銘","王世堅","陳玉珍"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1148401_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}