{"error":false,"id":["164175"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":164175,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164175","日期":"2025-10-15","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-4-20-2","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第4會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":4,"會次":2,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第4會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2025-10-15T11:34:17+08:00","結束時間":"2025-10-15T11:41:28+08:00","影片長度":"00:07:11","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d759c3dbefb57db61f548e62c8047d3497bc26f8a2da105892e8362d61d61ef276d6fe535e5dfa9f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"11:34:17 - 11:41:28","會議時間":"2025-10-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n【10月13日、15日及16日三天一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.35409375,"end":13.800968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.172218750000003,"end":15.387218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.59346875,"end":19.234718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.75784375,"end":26.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.18284375,"end":36.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.27409375,"end":40.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.446593750000005,"end":41.408468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.914718750000006,"end":44.665343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.35721875,"end":48.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.96846875,"end":50.774093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.16221875,"end":52.056593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.73159375,"end":54.165968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.672218750000006,"end":56.359718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.882843750000006,"end":60.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.83159375,"end":64.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.69596875,"end":66.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.72096875,"end":72.03659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.17159375,"end":73.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.07846875,"end":75.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.04846875,"end":79.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.57971875,"end":80.27159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.46971875,"end":96.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.95284375,"end":95.88096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.33659375,"end":102.00659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.19221875000001,"end":105.76971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.27596875,"end":110.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.86596875000001,"end":111.28784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.79409375,"end":117.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.59471875000001,"end":121.76721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.34096875,"end":125.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.08721875,"end":126.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.06596875000001,"end":127.65659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.83784375000002,"end":129.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.23846875,"end":136.81971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.03909375,"end":140.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.85284375,"end":141.47721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.81471875,"end":144.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.36284375,"end":149.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.06659375,"end":151.21409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.58971875,"end":163.48221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.48659375,"end":170.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.36284375000002,"end":195.91596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.87784375,"end":197.53596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.70471875,"end":198.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.15596875,"end":200.01659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.04596875000001,"end":208.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.30221875,"end":208.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.31471875000003,"end":209.33159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.33159375000002,"end":210.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":210.78284375,"end":219.00096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.25846875000002,"end":222.78096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.55721875,"end":224.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.51909375000002,"end":228.85596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.66596875000002,"end":230.08784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":231.01596875,"end":231.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.03284375,"end":232.90596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":231.58971875,"end":231.64034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":233.17596875,"end":238.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.14159375000003,"end":243.94221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.50846875000002,"end":238.81221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.39784375000002,"end":245.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.27534375000002,"end":245.66346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.64221875,"end":250.72596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.01284375000003,"end":257.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.08346875,"end":258.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":259.21409375,"end":261.05346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.05346875000004,"end":261.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":261.88034375,"end":262.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.03221875,"end":262.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.57221875,"end":262.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.69034375,"end":263.65221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.74096875000004,"end":263.61846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":263.65221875000003,"end":264.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.02346875,"end":271.46534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.29221875,"end":273.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.87846875,"end":278.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.14346875,"end":279.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":280.42596875000004,"end":280.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.44284375,"end":280.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":280.47659375,"end":280.74659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.74659375000005,"end":282.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":281.23596875000004,"end":286.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.90221875000003,"end":286.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.99034375,"end":288.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":287.02409375,"end":288.05346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.99409375,"end":294.83721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.69784375,"end":296.13659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.54971875,"end":299.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.81096875000003,"end":301.51971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.88659375000003,"end":304.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.57409375000003,"end":306.58221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.40909375,"end":310.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.48846875000004,"end":313.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.72034375000004,"end":314.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.52596875,"end":317.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.65221875000003,"end":318.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.00221875,"end":322.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.96784375000004,"end":324.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.97159375,"end":327.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.50721875,"end":329.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.61659375000005,"end":331.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.95784375,"end":339.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.28159375,"end":342.72846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.63971875000004,"end":348.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.37721875,"end":350.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.45721875000004,"end":351.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.02221875000004,"end":353.93346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.65471875000003,"end":356.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.58284375,"end":357.62909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.11846875000003,"end":360.97034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.71284375000005,"end":362.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.46346875,"end":366.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.90596875,"end":368.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.23034375000003,"end":371.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.24721875,"end":371.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.66909375,"end":374.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.14159375,"end":376.54596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.44909375000003,"end":380.05596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.30534375,"end":378.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.21221875000003,"end":381.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.91221875,"end":384.13971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.30409375000005,"end":386.60346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.85221875,"end":390.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":390.70409375,"end":390.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.94034375,"end":393.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.03721875,"end":392.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.23971875,"end":392.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.74596875000003,"end":394.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.43346875000003,"end":397.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.58909375,"end":399.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":398.14596875,"end":398.16284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.16284375000004,"end":398.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":398.21346875,"end":399.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.27659375,"end":399.42846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":399.42846875000004,"end":399.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.47909375,"end":399.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":399.54659375,"end":399.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.56346875,"end":400.27221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":399.90096875,"end":414.02534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.02534375000005,"end":420.38721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.01159375000003,"end":425.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.22971875,"end":431.79471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":11.604,"end":13.492,"text":"謝謝主席 楊群發言 邀請主席長我們請陳主席長"},{"start":18.615,"end":44.167,"text":"委員好 非常好115年度的總預算裡頭政府可以說是創下了惡例警校退休 軍人加薪國會已經三讀通過法定的法律行政院也沒有提復議總統府也已經公布施行然後呢 行政院竟然就違法的不編"},{"start":45.427,"end":63.796,"text":"没有编入到115年度的总预算我明白的告诉你们不编就是违法不编就是违法署长你过去也说了警察人员人事条例提高警销的这个退休金还有志愿运每一个月加几三万块"},{"start":64.776,"end":74.946,"text":"那這個軍人待遇條例各部會在送你自己送你主計書的時候沒編那你的職責是什麼請問你的職責是什麼請問為什麼沒編這是誰指令的"},{"start":81.51,"end":84.412,"text":"主席長你的職責你認為這樣符合依法行政嗎你目前的職責不管你去提什麼都還沒有結果之前你就是要依法行政啊"},{"start":111.91,"end":127.41,"text":"行政院沒有附議總統府公布施行之你是主席長欸那你看到這筆預算你敢送到立法院來你送了一個違法沒有編的預算欸主席長你是"},{"start":128.908,"end":147.776,"text":"你的職責啊而且你也非常專業啊你為什麼會任由這樣本席再次請教你是誰指令你是誰指令的是誰決定不要編的請教依法你必須要編請問依你的專業你不可能這麼做我可以大膽這麼告訴你誰告訴你"},{"start":150.977,"end":153.058,"text":"誰指令你不用變主席長 你的職責就是依法籌劃審編跟執行行政"},{"start":171.437,"end":195.708,"text":"政府的一個總預算你的監督跟你預算的行政效率這對於整個預算相關的法規你提出了擬定修正等意見你是必須組計長是必須從預算編制到執行的過程你要確保政府的財政運作跟合法性嘛對不對對不對那你有合法嗎你違法"},{"start":201.109,"end":227.746,"text":"行政院也沒有附議總統府公佈之立法院三讀通過這是法定的法律耶可以這麼做嗎因為這影響的確非常的深遠所以整個部分我們整個考量的結果就是說因為你也主席長 本席請問你違法不編的這個預算請教當你看到這樣違法你有提出什麼意見給院長嗎請教"},{"start":231.198,"end":241.895,"text":"你有提出什麼意見給院長嗎因為這個部分主要是那個人事總署還有那個請問 相對本期的提問你有提意見給院長嗎因為你是省紀長 主紀長是"},{"start":246.707,"end":270.553,"text":"你主席長的職權剛剛本席一個字一個字唸給你聽是那在這樣違法的預算送到立法院來的時候你在這個過程你有告訴院長嗎我們是希望都盡量能夠依法行政什麼叫盡量你本來就應該依法行政什麼盡量台灣是一個民主法治國家你一個主席長你可以說盡量兩個字"},{"start":272.673,"end":288.238,"text":"針對本期的提問你有在這個過程有給院長什麼樣的建議嗎有沒有這個部分我們就整個考量就是說你有沒有 你告訴我有還是沒有首席長 你有沒有依你的專業 你的職責你有建議給院長什麼意見嗎有沒有有還是沒有有還是沒有"},{"start":302.932,"end":331.554,"text":"你還是不敢說你是專業的組計長欸還是誰下令你 命令你不用編這麼的大膽違法有沒有人下令你不用編有沒有你既不回答有沒有建議院長你也不回答有沒有編台灣可以這樣子嗎可以如此的違法嗎你搞得連國軍都雞飛狗跳欸"},{"start":333.261,"end":351.045,"text":"聽到這個訊息三讀通過總統府公告之在募兵的時候都說每個月要加幾三萬結果馬上又一個髮夾彎不了不可以告知國軍說你不可以用三萬這個誘因來招募你讓國軍怎麼辦啊可以如此嗎主席長我希望再聽到你有沒有在這段時間你建議院長有沒有"},{"start":364.54,"end":368.063,"text":"有沒有誰 命令你不用編有沒有主席 可以都不回答嗎你是專業的耶 主席長可以都不回答嗎你把你沒有回答的時間扣下來怎麼可以 這是一個答詢耶是一個詢答"},{"start":387.901,"end":415.587,"text":"有答有詢有詢有答 你都不回答這是國會耶 可以如此嗎主席長剛剛也有答覆啦而且這麼明確的違法 可以如此嗎我們是不是在請我們主席長人民情何以堪啊那人事總署他提出來說這個影響非常巨大所以這個部分考量的結果所以才沒有編那所以我們就整個提視線那等視線的結果我們依結果來編列主席長 我還是一句話告訴你"},{"start":416.707,"end":425.337,"text":"你是專業的你不是任何一個政黨的官員你是中華民國台灣的官員我們政府的官員你必須依你的職責"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":948,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（11時34分）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言，邀請主計長。"],["主席：請陳主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主計長好。政府可以說是在115年度的總預算中創下了惡例，國會已經針對警消退休及軍人加薪三讀通過法定的法律，行政院沒有提出覆議，總統府也已經公布施行，然而行政院竟違法不編入115年度的總預算，我明白的告訴你們，不編就是違法、不編就是違法。主計長，你在過去也說過，警察人員人事條例提高警消的退休金，以及軍人待遇條例提高志願役每個月加給3萬元，各部會在送交主計總處的預算編列上沒有編列這筆經費，你的職責是什麼？請問你的職責是什麼？請問，為什麼沒有編列？這是誰指令的？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為這個加薪打破整個薪資的制度，行政院已經針對這個部分提出釋憲，院長也指示等釋憲結果……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主計長，根據你的職責，你認為這樣符合依法行政嗎？根據你目前的職責，無論你們提了什麼，在還沒有結果之前，你就是要依法行政啊！行政院沒有覆議，總統府公布之，你是主計長耶！你看到這筆預算，敢送到立法院來！你送了一個違法沒有編列的預算耶！主計長，你的職責啊！而且你也非常專業啊！為什麼會任由這樣的事發生？本席再次請教你，是誰指令你？是誰指令的？是誰決定不要編的？請教，依法你必須要編，依照你的專業，你不可能這麼做，我可以大膽這麼告訴你，是誰告訴你、是誰指令你不用編？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為這個調薪結果對整個制度影響真的很大，而且打亂了整個薪資的制度。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主計長，你的職責就是依法籌劃、審編及執行政府的總預算，除了監督預算的行政效率，對於整個預算相關的法規，也要提出擬訂及修正等意見，主計長必須從預算編製到執行的過程都確保政府的財政運作及合法性，對不對？對不對？你有合法嗎？你違法啊！行政院也沒有覆議，總統府公布之，立法院三讀通過，這是法定的法律耶！可以這麼做嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為這個影響的確非常深遠，我們整個考量的結果，院裡也說明……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請問主計長，當你看到這個違法不編的預算時，是否有提出什麼意見給院長？你有提出什麼意見給院長嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為這個主要是人事總處及國防部相關的部分……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：針對本席的提問，你有提意見給院長嗎？因為你是主計長，剛剛本席也已經逐字將你的職權念給你聽了，在將這個違法預算送到立法院的過程中，你有告訴院長嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們希望儘量都能依法行政，但是如果……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：什麼叫做儘量？你本來就應該依法行政，什麼儘量？臺灣是一個民主法治國家耶！你身為主計長可以說儘量2個字？針對本席的提問，你在這個過程中有給院長什麼樣的建議嗎？有沒有？你有沒有什麼建議？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分，我們做整個考量，就是如果編製，它對整個制度的影響……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你有沒有？你告訴我，有或沒有？主計長，你有沒有？依照你的專業、你的職責，你有給院長建議什麼意見嗎？有沒有？有或沒有？有或沒有？你還是不敢說！你是專業的主計長耶！或是誰命令你不用編？這麼的大膽，違法！有沒有人下令你不用編？有沒有？你既不回答有沒有建議院長，也不回答有沒有編，臺灣可以這樣子嗎？可以如此的違法嗎？你搞得連國軍都雞飛狗跳耶！聽到這個訊息，三讀通過，總統府公告之，募兵時都說每個月要加給3萬元，結果馬上又一個髮夾彎，不了！不可以！告知國軍說，你不可以用3萬這個誘因來招募。你讓國軍怎麼辦？可以如此嗎？主計長，我希望再聽到你有沒有在這段時間建議院長，有沒有？有沒有誰命令你不用編，有沒有？"],["主席：楊委員，我們時間到了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主席，可以都不回答嗎？"],["主席：我們時間到了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你是專業的耶！"],["主席：我們請主計長再回復一下楊委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主計長，可以都不回答嗎？你把你沒有回答的時間扣下來。怎麼可以？這是一個答詢耶，是一個詢答，有答有詢、有詢有答，你都不回答。這是國會耶，可以如此嗎？"],["主席：有啊！主計長剛剛也有答復。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：而且這麼明確的違法，可以如此嗎？"],["主席：我們是不是再請主計長……"],["陳主計長淑姿：這對整個制度影響是真的很大……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：人民情何以堪啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：人事總處提出來說這個影響非常巨大，所以這個部分考量的結果才沒有編，我們就整個提釋憲，等釋憲的結果，我們依結果來編列。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主計長，我還是一句話告訴你，你是專業的，你不是任何一個政黨的官員，你是中華民國臺灣的官員，我們政府的官員，你必須依你的職責。"],["主席：好，謝謝楊瓊瓔委員。","我們接下來請黃國昌委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":182,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-2","speakers":["李坤城","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","鍾佳濱","李彥秀","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","羅明才","葉元之","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","林思銘","王世堅","陳玉珍"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1148401_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}