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砍到308欸你又搶回去三分之二的錢欸"},{"start":204.778,"end":228.54,"text":"而且這個錢你摸著良心的主席可以講你回答問題之前這些錢都是非常重要的我給大家看一下有什麼地方的捷運營養午餐對不對台南市的這個捷運南線你明年度本來要給他多少錢對不對你現在剩下砍到剩1.6"},{"start":230.506,"end":252.002,"text":"他怎麼做啊這整個影響了整個人民的這個權益啊我看你剛才回答立委說不是不給晚一點給都已經蓋了第二個你時間往後拖這是多嚴重事情我們再看一個我去做了一個統計拜託先給電話這個一看這是被砍掉的是什麼"},{"start":256.328,"end":273.618,"text":"教育經費被砍了659億包括什麼基本的教育人事費還有辦公費營養午餐 水電費 冷氣本來要退伏支出的限職的待遇659億都負責還牽扯到"},{"start":277.057,"end":293.264,"text":"水利的輸進跟清淤你這個怎麼砍得下去經濟部河川的輸進少了10億內政部地下下水道的輸進跟清淤少14億這是不是都很重要"},{"start":295.865,"end":322.227,"text":"是不是都很重要這個是很重要但是問題這個是譬如說國中小的一個營養午餐水電會還有地方的一個水利輸進這些相關的會用這都是屬於地方應辦的事項只是中央著於補助所以這個部分我們就是說有因為我們實在是預算編不出來沒有辦法編所以才會把它有些事項回歸地方"},{"start":324.417,"end":351.43,"text":"主席長第一個你還是歷史以來最高的錢最多中華民國最有錢的就是今年的114年的中華民國明年115年更有錢了超過三兆欸你怎麼可以坐在金山上面一直喊窮而且第二個你剛講的都從地方搶的欸你都認為他重要結果你現在不你把他拿到中央來地方沒有錢要不要坐我最後做一個結論因為主席站出來了我看看欸我給你看一個很重要的文件"},{"start":352.692,"end":370.324,"text":"這個是在8月28號黨團協商的時候那一天連柯建銘 吳思瑤 陳培宜都簽字喔 主席你們民進黨也簽字喔那時候我們就注意到了你們把一般補助款要變成申請這兩個很大問題嘛一般性的補助款很多都法定預算對不對"},{"start":376.57,"end":401.06,"text":"你怎麼可以要去申請呢這是第一個問題第二個他本來錢被你排擠了嘛所以當初你看我們當初就說賴清德當台南市長的時候就說中央不應該急錢又急錢行政院你不應該去扣錢去解釋對於地方的補助款額度你不能夠調整各個縣市的這個金額的同時把明年的一般補助款變成是審查"},{"start":403.848,"end":404.449,"text":"三黨的黨編 我們三黨去協商這個都有牽涉的"},{"start":408.436,"end":437.706,"text":"你怎麼現在推翻我 你不是自打嘴巴嗎這個是總統通過追加預算案的時候的主決議喔這有法律效用喔 你這是違法耶這人家可以告你賭職耶所以你現在有幾個大的問題你對地方的影響那麼大對營養午餐影響那麼大對捷運影響那麼大教育影響那麼大所以最後我做個結論啦你是依法行政我做兩個拜託的事情第一個 回去好好再看看不要再這樣砍地方的補助環了"},{"start":439.363,"end":456.398,"text":"你砍太多了 計劃型砍太多了第二個 不要把一般補助款還要再申請這兩個都是要處理的對 這個部分我們都有改了有改了 就是申請字的部分大部分都改成填報字所以這個部分就會那你就違反了這個當初我們這個規定啦"},{"start":456.758,"end":470.496,"text":"沒有規範規定 因為為什麼因為一般性補助和計畫性補助都是對地方政府硬辦事項的著語補助啦並不是說一定的補助所以我們要衡量財政的意念來做補助請抱歉抱歉 比較簡單第一個 朱鑑定 拜託"},{"start":474.921,"end":480.147,"text":"你把計劃型補助款2900多億砍到308這是非常明確的這傷害太大了你要回去檢討不能夠這樣砍這是第一第一你一般型的補助款本來以前是不用審的你現在變成要審我們當初就跟你講了這是總統公告喔你不要違法你這樣下去會變成賭職好不好請你今天再拜託一下你要盯好好不好這是財政紀律而且要依法行政拜託一下謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1007,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（11時49分）謝謝主席，請主計長和審計長。"],["主席：我們請陳審計長、陳主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：主計長好。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：學長好。財劃法修正本來是要落實地方自治的，可是現在行政院一路都在造謠，說錢被地方分光光。我給大家看一個餅圖，我去做了統計，其實民國88年精省的時候，我們中央政府的收入淨額只有60%。審計長在點頭了，結果你看財劃法修正完之後，我幫他做了一個統計，還有高達65.6%，表示現在中央政府還是有錢的，不要講說地方分太多錢，中央還是富豪。","第二個，更嚴重的，接下來我要跟主計長和審計長討論一個非常嚴重的事情。我覺得主計長和行政院最近做了太多違法的事情，主計跟審計應該是很受到人家尊重的，特別是主計一定要依法去編列預算。剛剛講軍人加薪不編，警消退休金的年金提高也不編，這已經是違法了，所以我們今天會力主把明年度中央政府總預算要退回，這是一個。其次我們來看，還動了一個大家沒有注意到，可是對我們地方的教育跟基礎建設，連捷運都受到影響的，很大的地方，可能很多人到現在都不曉得。主計總處、行政院，竟然把我們的計畫型補助款，明年度我們的計畫型補助款本來應該有2,954億，大家看那個餅圖，那是中央應該給地方的計畫型補助款，砍到只剩下308億。第一個這個額度太大了，第二個，那很多建設對地方都非常非常的重要，包括到我們小孩子的營養午餐。","主計長，財劃法通過的時候，我算給大家聽，本來明年度因為財劃法通過之後，中央這個富豪，中央集權又集錢，要下放給地方、要照顧地方的4,165億，結果竟然你們可以去動一個辦法，暗渡陳倉，你是土匪是不是？像土匪一樣搶回了將近三分之二，搶回去2,954億裡面的2,646億。主計長，這樣財劃法就不用修了，我們修完，中央要下放四千一百多億下去，結果你自己弄一個辦法，把計畫型補助款砍到剩308億，你又搶回去三分之二的錢。而且這個錢，主計長，你回答問題之前，你摸著良心，這些錢都是非常重要的，我給大家看一下有什麼，有地方的捷運、營養午餐，對不對？臺南市的捷運藍線，你明年度本來要給他多少錢，60億對不對？你現在砍到剩1.6億，他怎麼做啊？這影響了整個人民的權益啊！我看你剛才回答立委說不是不給，晚一點給。都已經蓋了，第二個你時間往後拖，這是多嚴重的事情。","我們再看一個，我去做了一個統計，拜託審計長也一起看，這被砍掉的是什麼？教育經費被砍了659億，包括什麼？基本的教育人事費，還有辦公費、營養午餐、水電費、冷氣，連本來要退撫支出的、現職的待遇，659億都砍，還牽扯到水利的疏濬跟清淤。主計長，你這個怎麼砍得下去？經濟部河川的疏濬少了10億，內政部地下下水道的疏濬跟清淤少14億。主計長，這些是不是都很重要？是不是都很重要？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個是很重要，但是問題是，譬如說國中小的營養午餐、水電費，還有地方的水利疏濬，這些相關的費用，這都是屬於地方應辦的事項，只是中央酌予補助。所以這個部分，我們就是因為實在是預算編不出來，沒有辦法編，才會把它有些事項回歸地方。"],["張委員啓楷：我一開始給你看你的錢，主計長，第一個你還是歷史以來最高的，中華民國最有錢的就是今年（114年）的中華民國，明年（115年）更有錢了，超過三兆耶！你怎麼可以坐在金山上面一直喊窮，而且第二個，你剛講的都從地方搶的，你都認為它重要，結果你現在把錢拿到中央來，地方沒有錢，那要不要做？","我最後做一個結論，因為主席站起來了，我給你看一個很重要的文件，這個是在8月28號黨團協商的時候，那一天連柯建銘、吳思瑤、陳培瑜都簽字喔。主席，你們民進黨都簽字喔。那時候我們就注意到了，你們把一般補助款要變成申請，這兩個很大問題嘛，一般性的補助款，審計長，很多都法定預算對不對？你怎麼可以要去申請呢？這是第一個問題。","第二個它本來錢被你排擠了嘛！所以你看，我們當初就說賴清德當臺南市長的時候，就說中央不應該集權又集錢，行政院你不應該去擴權解釋，對於地方的補助款額度，你不能夠調整各個縣市的這個金額的同時，把明年的一般補助款變成是審查。三黨的黨鞭喔！我們三黨去協商，這個都有簽字的喔，你怎麼現在推翻我們，你不是自打嘴巴嗎？這個是我們通過追加預算案的時候的主決議，這個有法律效用喔，你這樣是違法耶，這個人家可以告你瀆職耶。","你現在有幾個大的問題，你對地方的影響那麼大，對營養午餐影響那麼大，對捷運影響那麼大，對教育影響那麼大，所以最後我做個結論啦！你是依法行政，我做兩個拜託的事情，第一個，回去好好再看看，不要再這樣砍地方的補助款了，你砍太多了，計畫型砍太多了。第二個不要把一般補助款還要再申請，這兩個都是要處理的。第二個，今天審計長……"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，這個部分我們都有改了，就是申請制的部分大部分都改成填報制，所以這個部分就會減弱……"],["張委員啓楷：那你就違反了當初我們這個規定啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有違反規定，因為一般性補助和計畫型補助都是對地方政府應辦事項的酌予補助啦！並不是說一定的補助……"],["張委員啓楷：第一個，現在非常……"],["陳主計長淑姿：所以我們要衡量財政的情形來補助……"],["張委員啓楷：抱歉，主計長，因為後面還有人啦！主席，抱歉。"],["主席：張委員，對，趕快做個結論。"],["張委員啓楷：主計長，第一個，你把計畫型補助款兩千九百多億砍到308億，這是非常明確的，這傷害太大了，你要回去檢討，不能夠這樣砍，這是第一個。第二，你一般型的補助款本來以前是不用審的，你現在變成要審，我們當初就跟你講了，這是總統公告喔，你不要違法，你這樣下去會變成瀆職，好不好？審計長今天在場，要拜託一下，你要盯好，好不好？這是財政紀律，而且要依法行政，拜託一下，謝謝！"],["主席：謝謝我們張啓楷委員。","接下來我們請蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在場。","下一位我們請謝衣鳯委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":182,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-2","speakers":["李坤城","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","鍾佳濱","李彥秀","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","羅明才","葉元之","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","林思銘","王世堅","陳玉珍"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1148401_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}