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麻煩有請部長我們請部長部長好 時間的關係我們很快的進行超市的弊案我相信大家都很關注2024年6月25號這個弊案還在滾雪球的時候"},{"start":31.461,"end":47.267,"text":"農業部對外說你們的政風調查確認行政上面沒有什麼問題我是逐字照錄的這不是我編出來的結果呢結果出來了以後行政上問題一堆"},{"start":48.775,"end":58.905,"text":"行政上問題一堆代表你們那時候次長面對社會大眾質疑的時候的回覆是在聞過是非這件事情農業部事後有沒有檢討要不要給社會大眾一個說法"},{"start":65.908,"end":85.602,"text":"我跟委員報告在整個超支案的過程中從我開始去處理的時候第一個部分我們就成立內部調查小組而且把相關的沒辦法一律我們移送檢調去調查我們有移送檢調所以檢調才有後續的調查這不是我的問題部長請你針對問題回答現在我在質疑的事情是你們農業部說政風調查確認沒有行政問題這個陳述是正確的嗎"},{"start":89.975,"end":116.408,"text":"這個在程序上面來講當初看到的行政調查是如此但是我們覺得說有一些沒辦法解釋跟續產會沒辦法解釋所以才會移請檢調調查我的問題還是一樣啊當初這樣對社會大眾的陳述是正確的嗎是正確的嗎我不知道這句話是在哪個時間點來2024年6月25號沒有辦法記得那麼清楚齁對啊所以我現在問你嘛現在這句話"},{"start":118.801,"end":147.907,"text":"現在從農業部的立場來看這個陳述是正確的嗎你回答不出來沒關係啦從檢調的調查裡面我們農業部的所有的職員並沒有受到任何的所謂的移送來看一下齁看一下齁你們說行政上沒有問題嗎我現在這12345678全部都是全職機關認定出來的這全部都是行政上的問題啊今天我請你"},{"start":148.979,"end":176.681,"text":"提醒你告訴你這個問題我是有個態度啦事前不要聞過是非啦事後都會被檢驗啦我們已經經過檢調調查我們的正式的真正的公務人員並沒有相關的被移送的一個情形好來看一下監察院認定啊張經緯浪費了公帑5億多啊這5億多接下來誰買單"},{"start":179.278,"end":197.929,"text":"我覺得監察院講這句話也沒有特別的根據你的意思是說監察院這樣子的認定是沒有事實基礎就對了相關的法院都還沒有做判決那同樣的相關的當初的這些機案部長請你稍微等一下分兩個部分第一個"},{"start":199.279,"end":222.213,"text":"監察院彈劾張經緯 從你今天回答的狀況來看你是幫張經緯抱不平啊 是嗎我告訴你 法院還沒有判決 這兩個部分嘛監察院歸監察院 法院歸法院嘛我們一樣一樣看清楚嘛我要跟委員報告 監察院等一下啦 你先停一下 監察院"},{"start":223.555,"end":234.128,"text":"彈劾的法律構成要件跟法院現在有沒有定罪的犯罪構成要件是兩回事嘛所以我現在先問你嘛檢察院說他浪費公帑5億多"},{"start":240.485,"end":266.584,"text":"農業部打算怎麼辦他談了他 他就會進到懲戒法院懲戒法院現在還沒有懲戒法院處理的是公務員違法失職要施於什麼懲戒處分的問題嗎有違法失職才有所謂的後面的浪費公帑的問題下一個問題針對求償權的部分消滅時效多久法律上面有不夠了解法律上你不夠了解 回去問清楚這就是我今天質詢的重點"},{"start":267.981,"end":294.416,"text":"你說要等我擔心的是什麼你等到天荒地老消滅時效都完成了你要跟誰求償啊這就是我的point嘛我的重點是他真正的有所謂的不法的情況之下才要去求償那相對的以這個武藝我提醒一下部長齁你可能回去啊看要去問你們的法務單位啊還是要問你們聘請的律師都沒有問題啊"},{"start":296.038,"end":324.038,"text":"在民事上面求償的構成要件跟懲戒法院懲處種類的構成要件跟刑事責任認定有沒有貪污的構成要件全部都不一樣全部混在一起這是第一點第二點求償的構成要件消滅時效從什麼時候開始算從什麼時候開始算搞清楚 第二點因為我很擔心啊五億多沒了過了幾年雲淡風輕"},{"start":325.902,"end":344.511,"text":"然後說那怎麼不求償不好意思消滅時效已完成 這個是我今天質詢的第一個point第二個 因為主席已經站起來了啦第二個超市幣案續產會被詐領了6085萬這個部分也要等到官司結束嗎"},{"start":347.666,"end":369.466,"text":"這也要等到官司結束嗎這個我會去了解然後等到吳亦菲被判刑確定了以後再來檢討要不要跟他求償嗎還是反正花的是納稅人的錢不要沒關係大家都沒關係我絕對沒有這種態度沒有關係很好我就是要你有積極的態度要你有積極的作為你回去了解了以後需要多久可以給我書面回覆"},{"start":373.227,"end":398.652,"text":"這個檢報上面續產會的部分我會發文請續產會給我一個訊息那您剛才講的那個浪費工廠無益的部分如果針對這些報廢產的話沒有關係啊你們要怎麼處理一併書面回覆需要多久書面的部分是針對這個還是針對上一題兩個都要回答因為我問了兩個問題這個多久一個月一個月可不可以一個月好可以我等你一個月謝謝"},{"start":401.902,"end":402.687,"text":"謝謝黃國昌委員的質詢謝謝部長的"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1164,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時32分）主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好。由於時間的關係，我們很快地進行。超思的弊案，我相信大家都很關注，2024年6月25日，這個弊案還在滾雪球的時候，農業部對外說你們政風調查確認行政上面沒有什麼問題，我是逐字照錄的，這不是我編出來的，結果呢？結果出來以後，行政上問題一堆，代表那時候次長面對社會大眾的質疑的時候的回復是在文過飾非，這件事情，農業部事後有沒有檢討？要不要給社會大眾一個說法？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，在整個超思案的過程，從我開始去處理的時候，第一個部分，我們就成立內部調查小組，而且把相關的事證移送檢調去調查，我們有移送檢調，所以檢調會去調查。"],["黃委員國昌：這不是我的問題，部長，請你針對問題回答。現在我在質疑的事情，是你們農業部說政風調查確認沒有行政問題，這個陳述是正確的嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：這個在程序上面來講，當初看到的行政調查是如此，但是我們覺得，有一些沒辦法解釋，跟畜產會沒辦法解釋，所以才會移請檢調調查。"],["黃委員國昌：我的問題還是一樣，當初這樣對社會大眾的陳述是正確的嗎？是正確的嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我不知道這句話是在哪個時間點。"],["黃委員國昌：是2024年6月25日。"],["陳部長駿季：我沒有辦法記得那麼清楚。"],["黃委員國昌：對啊。所以我現在問你，這句話現在從農業部的立場來看，這個陳述是正確的嗎？你回答不出來沒關係啦。"],["陳部長駿季：從檢調的調查裡面，我們農業部所有的職員並沒有受到任何的移送。"],["黃委員國昌：來，看一下，你們說行政上沒有問題，我現在這1、2、3、4、5、6、7、8，全部都是權責機關認定出來的，這全部都是行政上的問題啊！今天我提醒你，告訴你這個問題，我只有一個態度，事前不要文過飾非，事後都會「煏空」，都會被檢驗。"],["陳部長駿季：經過檢調調查，真正的公務人員並沒有被移送的情形。"],["黃委員國昌：來，看一下，監察院認定張經緯浪費了公帑五億多，這五億多接下來誰買單？"],["陳部長駿季：我覺得監察院講這句話也沒有特別的根據。"],["黃委員國昌：你的意思是說，監察院這樣子的認定是沒有事實基礎就對了？"],["陳部長駿季：相關的法院都還沒有作判決，同樣的，相關的當初這些雞蛋……"],["黃委員國昌：部長，請你稍微等一下，分兩個部分，第一個，監察院彈劾張經緯，從你今天回答的狀況來看，你是幫張經緯抱不平，是嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我告訴你，法院還沒有判決，彈劾……"],["黃委員國昌：這就兩個部分嘛，監察院歸監察院，法院歸法院嘛，我們一樣一樣看清楚嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：我要跟委員報告，監察院彈劾以後……"],["黃委員國昌：等一下，先停一下，監察院彈劾的法律構成要件跟法院現在有沒有定罪的犯罪構成要件是兩回事嘛。"],["陳部長駿季：對，兩回事啊。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛，所以我現在先問你嘛。"],["陳部長駿季：所以我要回答嘛。"],["黃委員國昌：監察院說他浪費公帑五億多，農業部打算怎麼辦？"],["陳部長駿季：既然監察院提出彈劾，案子就會進到懲戒法院，懲戒法院現在還沒有……"],["黃委員國昌：懲戒法院處理的是公務員違法失職要施予什麼懲戒處分的問題嘛。"],["陳部長駿季：有違法失職，才有後面的浪費公帑的問題啊。"],["黃委員國昌：下一個問題，針對求償權的部分，消滅時效多久？"],["陳部長駿季：法律上面我不夠了解。"],["黃委員國昌：法律上面你不夠了解就回去問清楚啊。這就是我今天質詢的重點。你說要等，我擔心的是什麼？你等到天荒地老，消滅時效都完成了，你要跟誰求償啊？這就是我的point嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：我的重點是，真正有不法的情況之下，才要去求償，那相對地，以這個五億……"],["黃委員國昌：我提醒一下部長，你回去看要去問你們的法務單位，還是要問你們聘請的律師，都沒有問題，在民事上面求償的構成要件，跟懲戒法院懲處種類的構成要件，跟刑事責任認定有沒有貪污的構成要件，全部都不一樣，全部混在一起，這是第一點。","第二點，求償的構成要件消滅時效從什麼時候開始算？從什麼時候開始算？搞清楚。因為我很擔心，五億多沒了，過了幾年，雲淡風輕，然後再說：「那怎麼不求償？」不好意思，消滅時效已完成，這個是我今天質詢的第一個point。","第二個，在超思弊案上，畜產會被詐領了6,085萬元，這個部分也要等到官司結束嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：這個我會去瞭解。"],["黃委員國昌：然後等到吳諭非被判刑確定了以後，再來檢討要不要跟他求償嗎？還是反正花的是納稅人的錢，「沒要沒緊」，大家都不要緊？"],["陳部長駿季：我絕對沒有這種態度。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，很好，我就是要你有積極的態度，要你有積極的作為，你回去瞭解了以後，需要多久可以給我書面回復？"],["陳部長駿季：這個簡報上面畜產會的部分，我會發文請畜產會給我一個訊息。那您剛才講的那個浪費公帑五億的部分，如果針對這些報廢的話……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，你們要怎麼處理，一併書面回復，需要多久？"],["陳部長駿季：書面的部分是針對這個，還是針對上一題？"],["黃委員國昌：兩個都要回答，因為我問了兩個問題。"],["陳部長駿季：1個月可不可以？"],["黃委員國昌：好，可以，我等你1個月，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員的質詢，謝謝部長。","我們現在請郭國文委員質訊。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":174,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-3","speakers":["陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","邱志偉","蔡易餘","鄭天財Sra 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