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所以下禮拜這時候如果又沒有補題名 現在主委也沒有 還少了一個委員 對不對那就變成兩個問題啦 又違法那卓院長為了這個中選會的人選啊他沒有提 他在禮拜二的宴會他也總之想說他都特別道歉了"},{"start":87.124,"end":112.958,"text":"不要讓左院長又變成道歉的院長趕快提醒他這個禮拜趕快提好不好因為這是院長的職權所以不過會造成你們的人事空窗是而且不要讓他變成一次只有一次在道歉又違法提醒一下下個禮拜三之前要趕快提另外我們來關心一下鮮奶的這個問題"},{"start":114.586,"end":139.294,"text":"這在五月份的時候 你有時候特別要立案去調查嘛來 我們看一下很多民眾啊 去買牛奶 貴三三啦你看那個生乳你買的時候啊台灣一公升是26.12塊比美國跟紐西蘭稍微高一點點可是嚴重在什麼地方你看賣出去 一公升的鮮奶台灣一公升 將近100塊耶"},{"start":142.14,"end":170.751,"text":"對比美國跟紐西蘭所以有人去國外說國外的牛丁怎麼這麼便宜其實是我們台灣的牛丁太貴而且很離譜你看生乳這個收購的時候價格是那麼低到了 主委你看差幾倍3.28倍所以現在造成什麼結果生產者也沒有賺到錢消費者買的非常貴那中間什麼地方出了問題"},{"start":172.247,"end":190.61,"text":"通路商 我這個資料是引述的是上下游新聞 主要來源是台灣大學動物科學系的教授 習季泰 習教授他們就做了這個統計那他們就提醒了一個非常重要的 重要的點中間啊 有四層"},{"start":192.298,"end":207.155,"text":"的利潤為什麼中間落差這麼大價差這麼大從26塊買賣出去給我們消費者說貴這麼多85塊多將近100塊有將近4成是通路商通路商拿走了"},{"start":208.578,"end":236.384,"text":"通商拿走了所以等一下我們要討論一下這是不是變成一個價格的默契或者是市場的一個壟斷啊等一下我們進一步來討論好那我們再來看第二個這個也是非常嚴重的一個問題今年1月份開始紐西蘭的牛奶進來降為零關稅了現在紐西蘭進來他的價格沒有降耶還反而在漲而且幫他做了一個統計大家看到沒有大家看到沒有"},{"start":238.446,"end":265.987,"text":"這個第一年來這個乳品這個進口啊紐西蘭的國外的東西一進來越來越來越多本來啊在2008年的時候大概只有2%耶到了去年2024的時候已經跳到28%了 啊量越多結果價格都沒有降 又零關稅所以啊中華民國乳業協會的秘書長方清潔就說啊 她說你如果"},{"start":267.844,"end":293.375,"text":"關稅已經變成是零關稅了你是不是價格應該是要降的他是不是提到說如果目前國內的這個量販超市超商等通路如果要可以調降這個上價費的話比照德國跟維也納歐洲國家的這個上價費啊他們這個通路啊抽成大概是20%"},{"start":295.263,"end":319.816,"text":"這個主委你們應該有去調查嘛 我們要40所以他說如果這個有適度的調整 我們台灣的牛奶不是這樣幾三三 至少一瓶應該要便宜10塊錢的另外呢 進口的這個紐西蘭這個液態酥啊 零關稅以後 它每公升至少應該比我們國產的要便宜20啊所以你看關稅降了 量增加了"},{"start":321.295,"end":337.814,"text":"專家協準都出來講 乳業協會跟專家協準都出來講應該要講嘛 對不對好來 我們來解決問題保定我知道你在五月十九的時候因為那時候國內消費者發起了一人一信的檢舉說這個太不合理了所以那時候你有公開承諾說"},{"start":340.024,"end":362.263,"text":"紐西蘭進口乳零關稅以後價格不降案子公平會要立案調查嘛對不對是有調查了對不對對那時候你還說要去看看有沒有聯合定價的問題是好那立案了有立案有開始調查了嗎對不對對已經有調查調查目前我們在做最後的重整跟分析"},{"start":362.93,"end":388.798,"text":"快完成了大概什麼時候可以完成我現在先跟你講外界的質疑就是為什麼拖了這麼久5月19號到現在會不會拖太久所以今天我要很明確的話你最近要趕快把它完成第二個要公開的時候你自然要調查到幾個第一個你的調查範圍而且裡面要有所謂的項目跟你什麼時候要公佈最重要的你今天應該很明確要跟民眾講清楚已經從5月19號到現在"},{"start":390.959,"end":415.696,"text":"你的調查什麼時候可以完成一個禮拜內要跟民眾講清楚第二個我先講一個中間很重要的因為這裡面牽涉到的整個是跨部會嘛對不對我牽涉到農業部你光是這個生主的收購價然後關入署他進口的成本價到底是多少還有商務司經濟部商務司他整個通入的這個價格我覺得你應該"},{"start":417.455,"end":441.85,"text":"都要在這個調查結果裡面要清楚的呈現這幾個價格跨部會都要你目前有調查這個嗎跟委員報告一下那個有關通路商的價格到下游那個部分從公平會的角度來看我們會尊重市場機制因為在通路行銷部分他有他自己本身的成本冷鏈運輸等等那每個通路商的成本結構一定不一樣"},{"start":442.25,"end":470.315,"text":"所以他最后卖给零售的价格是多少除非他们有联合定价或者说他们有一些排除竞争的手段那这部分我们可以针对联合定价或手段部分来查处但是直接去看那个价格的高低甚至于是设定一个百分比比较不适合由公平会来处理所以你只要是跨部会这几个包括你把它厘清了你的成本的问题通路到底凑成了还有市场到底有没有默契你的答案就会出来了嘛"},{"start":472.979,"end":489.437,"text":"因為你在5月19年清除前要去查有沒有聯合定價這個問題所以這次你要很明確地調查報告出來的時候要很清楚地判斷它到底有沒有價格聯合或者是平行的這個行為我看你今天報告很重要你有提到包括移飼料這個"},{"start":491.022,"end":514.595,"text":"聯合壟斷這個事嘛對不對東流線台東到這個琉球你們都有去採訪對不對那你要不要變成是一個雙標你那邊都查得出來了那這邊我剛講的這是專家學者包括竹品協會他們都提出了很多的質疑嘛更重要的消費者明明都變成零關稅了我去國外又那麼便宜對不對而且生產者沒有賺到錢喔"},{"start":515.615,"end":520.803,"text":"消費者買的這麼貴那我們今天的要求都非常具體這個應該跟你的調查方向也是很信任對不對"},{"start":522.253,"end":544.65,"text":"我們這個委員關切的這些跟競爭有關的聯合行為濫用獨裁利益我們都會去調查啦就是我剛剛跟委員報告價格的高低的部分可能不太適合由我們來做你什麼時候這個調查結果可以出來我覺得跟委員報告一下我們可能還需要大概一個月的時間啊根據我們調查的資料來做重整研析是不是可以再給我們一個月的時間提會討論 提委員會討論"},{"start":549.213,"end":568.582,"text":"一個月送到委員會去討論還是可以到時候就可以公開那看委員會討論的情況到時候要做什麼樣的決議很好現在今天全民有一個有一個可以期待的這個答案經過了半年多的一個調查下個月對不對一個月後這個乳品到底有沒有降價有沒有壟斷在一個月後會公平會清楚的交到你們調查會經過委員會討論"},{"start":570.563,"end":577.489,"text":"OK 委員會調查以後有時候委員有一些不同的意見可是討論完一定會公佈嘛是是是 當然謝謝張旗開委員的質疑"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":164,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（9時48分）謝謝主席，請陳主委。"],["主席：請主委，謝謝。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：委員早。"],["張委員啓楷：主委早。公平會的組織法在7月份三讀的時候有修掉萬年條款，明定要趕快在三個月內補提名，對不對？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是。"],["張委員啓楷：這個日期快到了。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是。"],["張委員啓楷：7月23日總統公告，所以下禮拜的這個時候如果又沒有補提名，現在沒有主委，還少一個委員，那就會出現兩個問題，一個是違法，此外，卓院長為了他沒有提出中選會的人選在禮拜二院會總質詢時特別道歉了，不要讓卓院長又變成道歉的院長，趕快提醒他這個禮拜趕快提，好不好？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：因為這是院長的職權，所以……"],["張委員啓楷：不過會造成你們的人事空窗，而且不要讓他變成一直只有在道歉又違法，提醒一下，下個禮拜三之前要趕快提。","另外，我們來關心一下鮮奶的問題，在5月份的時候你有說特別要立案去調查。我們看一下，很多民眾去買牛奶的時候說，很貴。在臺灣的生乳收購價格1公升是26.12塊，比美國跟紐西蘭稍微高一點點，可是嚴重的是在什麼地方？你看賣出去的價格，臺灣1公升的鮮奶將近要100塊，對比美國跟紐西蘭，所以有些人去國外說國外的牛奶怎麼那麼便宜，其實是我們臺灣的牛奶太貴，而且很離譜，你看，生乳收購的時候價格是那麼低，到了賣出時，主委你看，差幾倍？3.28倍，所以現在造成什麼結果？生產者也沒有賺到錢，消費者買的非常貴，那中間什麼地方出了問題？通路商，我這個資料引述的是上下游新聞，主要來源是臺灣大學動物科學系徐濟泰教授他們去做的統計，他們就提醒了一個非常重要的點，為什麼中間落差這麼大、價差這麼大？從26塊買，賣出去給消費者的時候貴了這麼多，要八十五塊多，將近100塊，中間有將近四成的利潤是通路商拿走了，所以等一下我們要討論一下這是不是變成一個價格的默契或者是市場的壟斷呢？等一下我們進一步來討論。","第二個，這個也是非常嚴重的一個問題，今年1月份開始紐西蘭的牛奶進口降為零關稅了，但它的價格沒有降，反而還在漲，而且我有幫它做了一個統計，大家看看歷年來乳品進口的情形，紐西蘭等國外的產品進來的越來越多，本來在2008年的時候大概只有2%，到了去（2024）年已經跳到28%，進口的量越多，又零關稅，但價格都沒有降，所以中華民國乳業協會的秘書長方清泉就說，如果關稅已經變成是零關稅了，價格是不是應該是要降的？他甚至提到，如果目前國內的量販、超市、超商等通路可以調降上架費，比照德國跟維也納，歐洲國家的通路上架費大概是抽成20%，這個主委你們應該有去調查吧？而我們要40%。所以他說，如果這個有適度的調整，臺灣的牛奶不會那麼貴，至少一瓶應該要便宜10塊錢。另外，進口的紐西蘭液態乳零關稅以後，它每公升至少比我們國產的要便宜20啊！所以你看，關稅降了、量增加了，乳業協會跟專家學者都出來講，應該要降嘛！","好，我們來解決問題。部長，我知道你在5月19日的時候有承諾，因為那時候國內消費者發起了一人一信的檢舉，說這個太不合理了，所以那時候你有公開承諾說，紐西蘭進口乳零關稅以後價格不降的那個案子，公平會要立案調查，對不對？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是。"],["張委員啓楷：有調查了，對不對？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：對。"],["張委員啓楷：那時候你還說要去看看有沒有聯合定價的問題。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是。"],["張委員啓楷：好，那立案了，有開始調查了嘛，對不對？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：對，已經有調查了，目前我們在做最後的綜整跟分析。"],["張委員啓楷：快完成了？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：應該是。"],["張委員啓楷：大概什麼時候可以完成？我現在先跟你講，外界的質疑是為什麼拖了這麼久？5月19日到現在會不會拖太久了？所以今天我要很明確的，你最近要趕快把它完成。其次，要公開的時候，你至少要調查到幾個：第一個，你的調查範圍，而且裡面要有所謂的項目和你什麼時候要公布，最重要的，你今天應該要很明確的跟民眾講清楚你的調查什麼時候可以完成，已經從5月19日到現在了，一個禮拜內要跟民眾講清楚。第二個，我先講一個重點，因為這裡面牽涉到整個跨部會，有牽涉到農業部，還有生乳收購價、關務署進口成本價到底是多少，以及經濟部商業司整個通路的價格，我覺得在這個調查結果裡面都要清楚的呈現這幾個價格，跨部會都要有。你目前有調查這個嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：跟委員報告，有關通路商的價格到下游的部分，從公平會的角度來看，我們會尊重市場機制，因為在通路行銷的部分，他有他自己的成本，包括冷鏈、運輸等等，每個通路商的成本結構一定不一樣，所以他最後賣給零售的價格是多少，除非他們有聯合定價，或者他們有一些排除競爭的手段，這部分我們可以針對聯合定價或手段部分來查處，但是直接去看那個價格的高低，甚至於是設定一個百分比，比較不適合由公平會來處理。"],["張委員啓楷：所以你主要是跨部會這幾個，包括要釐清是你的成本問題，還是通路抽成、還是市場到底有沒有默契？這樣你的答案就會出來了嘛！","因為你在5月19日有清楚講要去查有沒有聯合定價這個問題，所以這次你調查報告出來的時候，要很明確、清楚的說明判斷它到底有沒有價格聯合或是平行行為的標準。你今天報告很重要，我看你有提到魚飼料的聯合壟斷以及東琉線（臺東到琉球）等案件，你們都有去裁罰，對不對？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：有。"],["張委員啓楷：不要變成是一個雙標，你那邊都查得出來了，這邊就像我剛剛講的，這是專家學者，包括乳業協會都提出了很多質疑，更重要的是，消費者會覺得，明明都變成零關稅了，我去國外又那麼便宜，對不對？而且生產者沒有賺到錢，消費者又買得這麼貴。我們今天的要求都非常具體，這個跟你的調查方向應該也很近嘛？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：委員關切的這些跟競爭有關的聯合行為、濫用獨占力，我們都會去調查，唯一就是我剛剛跟委員報告的，價格高低的部分可能不太適合由我們來做。"],["張委員啓楷：什麼時候這個調查結果可以出來？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：跟委員報告，我們可能還需要大概一個月的時間，根據我們調查的資料來做綜整研析，所以是不是可以再給我們一個月的時間去提委員會討論？"],["張委員啓楷：一個月送到委員會去討論，到時候就可以公開……"],["陳代理主任委員志民：那要看委員會討論的情況，看到時候作成什麼樣的決議。"],["張委員啓楷：很好，至少今天全民有一個可以期待的答案，經過了半年多的調查，下個月、一個月後，乳品到底有沒有降價、有沒有壟斷？再一個月後，公平會就會清楚的交代你們的調查報告。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：會經過委員會討論。"],["張委員啓楷：委員會調查以後……"],["陳代理主任委員志民：委員會討論完，有時候委員會有一些不同的意見。"],["張委員啓楷：對啊，可是討論完一定會公布嘛？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是，當然。"],["張委員啓楷：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張啓楷委員的質詢。","請鄭天財委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":112,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-4","speakers":["陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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