{"error":false,"id":["16426"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":16426,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16426","日期":"2024-12-26","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"黨團協商-2024122544","會議代碼:str":"立法院朝野黨團協商","屆":11,"會期":2,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"黨團協商","委員會代碼":[15],"委員會代碼:str":["內政委員會"],"標題":"立法院朝野黨團協商"},"影片種類":"Full","開始時間":"2024-12-26T13:00:02+08:00","結束時間":"2024-12-26T14:54:00+08:00","影片長度":"01:53:58","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3eac7e719fa4ce89b4f28e8ce12a96e94816d1319bf84c916820e0dfcee8b2527cc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-12-26T13:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院朝野黨團協商（事由：一、本院內政委員會報告併案審查委員吳琪銘等16人、委員馬文君等16人、委員林思銘等18人、委員許宇甄等19人、委員呂玉玲等17人、委員蔡易餘等16人、委員陳超明等20人、委員丁學忠等17人、委員張嘉郡等16人、委員邱鎮軍等21人、委員徐欣瑩等20人、委員王美惠等17人、委員柯志恩等16人、委員楊瓊瓔等19人、委員王育敏等17人、委員羅廷瑋等17人、委員黃建賓等16人、委員張智倫等18人、委員林岱樺等16人、委員涂權吉等17人及委員魯明哲等16人分別擬具「國土計畫法部分條文修正草案」、委員鄭天財SraKacaw等18人擬具「國土計畫法第二十三條條文修正草案」、委員鄭天財SraKacaw等17人擬具「國土計畫法第七條、第三十五條及第四十五條條文修正草案」、委員陳亭妃等16人及委員邱議瑩等17人分別擬具「國土計畫法第四十條條文修正草案」及委員劉建國等17人擬具「國土計畫法第八條及第四十五條條文修正草案」案。二、委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」。三、委員許宇甄等24人擬具「國土計畫法增訂第三十二條之一條文草案」。四、委員盧縣一等18人擬具「國土計畫法第七條、第三十五條及第四十五條條文修正草案」。五、委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」。六、委員陳素月等17人擬具「國土計畫法第四十五條條文修正草案」。）","委員名稱":"完整會議","委員發言時間":"13:00:02 - 14:54:00","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2086.65846875,"end":2089.2234687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2089.6622187500006,"end":2100.4959687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2100.6815937500005,"end":2101.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2102.1159687500003,"end":2102.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2105.00159375,"end":2105.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2106.08159375,"end":2140.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2141.2322187500004,"end":2143.5947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2144.0672187500004,"end":2151.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2151.64409375,"end":2156.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2156.5378437500003,"end":2182.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2182.6434687500005,"end":2214.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2214.85784375,"end":2217.8953437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2219.02596875,"end":2219.3465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2219.8865937500004,"end":2221.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2222.38409375,"end":2223.9197187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2224.4090937500005,"end":2226.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2227.07534375,"end":2228.0709687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2228.4928437500002,"end":2233.2009687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2233.5553437500002,"end":2239.4784687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2240.76096875,"end":2249.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2250.54846875,"end":2254.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2254.7840937500005,"end":2261.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2262.10784375,"end":2267.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2268.80721875,"end":2271.3047187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2271.69284375,"end":2275.8272187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2277.3122187500003,"end":2280.3328437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2282.89784375,"end":2283.3028437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2284.93971875,"end":2287.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2287.8759687500005,"end":2293.5965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2294.5078437500006,"end":2299.2665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2299.7559687500006,"end":2300.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2300.7009687500004,"end":2309.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2310.18471875,"end":2315.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2315.7197187500005,"end":2316.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2316.9853437500005,"end":2318.8415937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2319.04409375,"end":2319.2803437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2319.60096875,"end":2321.6934687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2319.9384687500005,"end":2320.1072187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2321.96346875,"end":2322.9590937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2323.75221875,"end":2324.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2326.30034375,"end":2327.7009687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2328.88221875,"end":2330.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2331.0759687500004,"end":2334.1472187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2334.65346875,"end":2335.2947187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2336.52659375,"end":2340.6609687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2340.7790937500004,"end":2350.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2350.88721875,"end":2363.2059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2366.2265937500006,"end":2371.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2372.45346875,"end":2373.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2374.6640937500006,"end":2379.1190937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2380.7897187500002,"end":2383.6247187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2384.43471875,"end":2391.7247187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2392.72034375,"end":2394.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2394.69471875,"end":2396.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2396.75346875,"end":2400.4997187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2401.0565937500005,"end":2404.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2404.58346875,"end":2406.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2406.99659375,"end":2413.1728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2413.86471875,"end":2416.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2417.0203437500004,"end":2422.2178437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2422.65659375,"end":2428.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2428.37721875,"end":2430.5203437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2430.97596875,"end":2441.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2441.99534375,"end":2443.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2444.18909375,"end":2448.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2448.5428437500004,"end":2456.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2456.76096875,"end":2461.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2461.46909375,"end":2463.4772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2464.13534375,"end":2467.3415937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2468.1178437500002,"end":2472.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2475.03659375,"end":2475.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2476.3865937500004,"end":2477.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2479.54221875,"end":2517.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2519.08034375,"end":2523.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2523.73784375,"end":2527.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2528.0409687500005,"end":2533.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2532.0234687500006,"end":2532.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2532.7490937500006,"end":2532.7997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2532.81659375,"end":2533.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2533.66034375,"end":2541.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2536.9003437500005,"end":2536.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2536.9509687500004,"end":2537.5584687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2538.0984687500004,"end":2538.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2542.58721875,"end":2546.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2542.6209687500004,"end":2542.9753437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2547.59909375,"end":2547.7509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2547.97034375,"end":2547.9872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2549.3709687500004,"end":2553.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2552.42534375,"end":2556.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2558.07846875,"end":2558.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2559.15846875,"end":2559.7997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2563.02284375,"end":2569.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2569.70534375,"end":2570.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2570.5322187500005,"end":2571.0047187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2571.74721875,"end":2572.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2571.7978437500005,"end":2583.6778437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2589.7022187500006,"end":2590.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2592.2840937500005,"end":2597.3972187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2597.98784375,"end":2598.3084687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2598.57846875,"end":2598.9665937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2598.9665937500004,"end":2605.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2609.4122187500006,"end":2615.0147187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2616.5840937500006,"end":2618.6765937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2619.19971875,"end":2624.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2625.17346875,"end":2628.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2629.2740937500002,"end":2632.6153437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2632.9697187500005,"end":2633.8640937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2635.1297187500004,"end":2637.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2638.1503437500005,"end":2640.3272187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2641.72784375,"end":2643.0440937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2643.29721875,"end":2644.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2646.79034375,"end":2647.4990937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2656.5947187500005,"end":2657.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2657.8097187500007,"end":2658.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2658.61971875,"end":2659.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2660.18909375,"end":2663.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2662.2647187500006,"end":2666.5847187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2666.80409375,"end":2669.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2673.4022187500004,"end":2674.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2675.3934687500005,"end":2679.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2681.50221875,"end":2686.4803437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2687.5772187500006,"end":2694.0909687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2697.8709687500004,"end":2697.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2697.90471875,"end":2698.5459687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2698.9678437500006,"end":2700.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2699.89596875,"end":2717.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2718.22221875,"end":2728.0603437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2728.39784375,"end":2728.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2728.75221875,"end":2730.5915937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2731.6884687500005,"end":2736.4978437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2732.1103437500005,"end":2732.5153437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2734.6415937500005,"end":2735.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2737.25721875,"end":2738.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2739.9909687500003,"end":2740.4972187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2740.88534375,"end":2743.3153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2743.8722187500007,"end":2744.8847187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2745.50909375,"end":2748.5128437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2748.95159375,"end":2755.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2755.98846875,"end":2758.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2758.7390937500004,"end":2761.6415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2759.2790937500004,"end":2761.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2761.6415937500005,"end":2761.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2761.97909375,"end":2763.2109687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2761.9959687500004,"end":2762.0128437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2765.89409375,"end":2772.8972187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2773.1334687500002,"end":2773.5047187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2773.9940937500005,"end":2783.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2783.17409375,"end":2786.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2785.5534687500003,"end":2789.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2787.46034375,"end":2788.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2790.2109687500006,"end":2794.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2795.3915937500005,"end":2860.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2811.43971875,"end":2812.0303437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2861.00159375,"end":2862.7059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2863.65096875,"end":2884.4072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2884.6434687500005,"end":2887.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2887.5459687500006,"end":2895.5447187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2895.57846875,"end":2896.4053437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2897.5865937500002,"end":2900.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2898.53159375,"end":2899.4765937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2901.0290937500004,"end":2903.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2904.67409375,"end":2910.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2906.8847187500005,"end":2906.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2906.91846875,"end":2907.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2907.52596875,"end":2907.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2908.23471875,"end":2908.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2909.0447187500004,"end":2939.9765937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2939.50409375,"end":2939.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2939.9765937500006,"end":2940.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2940.17909375,"end":2940.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2941.4278437500006,"end":2946.1190937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2944.02659375,"end":2946.1697187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2946.1697187500004,"end":2946.1865937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2946.67596875,"end":2947.6884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2946.7940937500007,"end":2946.9628437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2947.6884687500005,"end":2947.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2947.8065937500005,"end":2958.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2951.40096875,"end":2951.8565937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2952.1940937500003,"end":2952.2109687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2953.9659687500007,"end":2954.8603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2958.3534687500005,"end":2961.3572187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2959.2478437500004,"end":2959.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2959.33221875,"end":2959.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2961.69471875,"end":2967.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2967.97221875,"end":2969.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2971.14471875,"end":2971.2628437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2971.5497187500005,"end":2972.9334687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2973.7772187500004,"end":2975.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2974.70534375,"end":2980.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2980.44284375,"end":2994.8709687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2995.2253437500003,"end":2997.9590937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2998.27971875,"end":3009.7547187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3010.0753437500007,"end":3017.2303437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3017.3990937500002,"end":3021.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3021.65159375,"end":3033.0253437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3033.24471875,"end":3039.8259687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3040.1465937500006,"end":3057.3084687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3057.7472187500007,"end":3061.2234687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3058.97909375,"end":3061.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3061.7128437500005,"end":3063.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3062.26971875,"end":3064.0753437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3063.29909375,"end":3063.3328437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3063.3834687500002,"end":3070.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3070.8759687500005,"end":3073.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3073.42409375,"end":3076.3434687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3077.17034375,"end":3078.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3078.67221875,"end":3087.0759687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3083.1103437500005,"end":3084.9665937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3084.9665937500004,"end":3085.2872187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3088.4765937500006,"end":3101.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3102.6853437500004,"end":3103.5459687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3104.54159375,"end":3106.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3105.30096875,"end":3106.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3106.46534375,"end":3115.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3116.5397187500002,"end":3129.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3129.22971875,"end":3131.0859687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3129.97221875,"end":3131.7272187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3131.7272187500002,"end":3145.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3146.6784687500003,"end":3150.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3150.52596875,"end":3153.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3159.8915937500005,"end":3161.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3161.0390937500006,"end":3166.3884687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3167.80596875,"end":3169.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3169.5778437500003,"end":3170.0165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3171.6365937500004,"end":3174.7584687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3175.0284687500007,"end":3185.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3185.8115937500006,"end":3197.59034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3197.65784375,"end":3199.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3200.23971875,"end":3233.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3234.04034375,"end":3254.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3255.87659375,"end":3263.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3262.7109687500006,"end":3264.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3265.2422187500006,"end":3266.2040937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3266.7272187500002,"end":3267.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3267.0984687500004,"end":3270.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3268.2628437500007,"end":3270.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3270.33846875,"end":3280.2947187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3270.55784375,"end":3270.5915937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3270.6084687500006,"end":3270.6759687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3281.35784375,"end":3281.3747187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3281.3747187500003,"end":3281.3915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3281.3915937500005,"end":3281.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3281.40846875,"end":3283.4334687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3283.63596875,"end":3286.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3286.5553437500002,"end":3288.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3288.3778437500005,"end":3292.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3292.44471875,"end":3297.3553437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3297.7772187500004,"end":3309.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3310.58534375,"end":3312.3065937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3312.74534375,"end":3314.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3314.87159375,"end":3321.2165937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3321.6384687500004,"end":3323.2247187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3324.4734687500004,"end":3328.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3328.4053437500006,"end":3365.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3365.1084687500006,"end":3365.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3365.1759687500007,"end":3368.3484687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3369.7997187500005,"end":3375.0478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3376.04346875,"end":3376.3134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3376.3134687500005,"end":3376.3809687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3376.3809687500006,"end":3379.8572187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3380.43096875,"end":3385.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3387.2315937500007,"end":3391.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3399.9890937500004,"end":3401.9297187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3402.13221875,"end":3430.7184687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3431.96721875,"end":3437.4853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3433.84034375,"end":3435.9665937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3436.97909375,"end":3463.1690937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3463.3209687500002,"end":3469.3790937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3469.7334687500006,"end":3487.0134687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3487.23284375,"end":3512.2247187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3514.46909375,"end":3515.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3516.6122187500005,"end":3517.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3519.4303437500002,"end":3546.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3546.29534375,"end":3563.6765937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3565.1784687500003,"end":3567.0515937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3569.1778437500006,"end":3662.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3662.2940937500007,"end":3666.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3667.4578437500004,"end":3667.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3667.72784375,"end":3667.7615937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3667.7615937500004,"end":3667.9303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3667.9303437500002,"end":3667.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3667.96409375,"end":3668.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3668.03159375,"end":3670.9678437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3670.9678437500006,"end":3671.0353437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3671.0353437500007,"end":3671.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3672.0478437500005,"end":3673.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3673.75221875,"end":3685.1765937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3685.32846875,"end":3688.1297187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3688.5009687500005,"end":3746.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3747.0234687500006,"end":3749.3184687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3749.3859687500008,"end":3759.4265937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3759.6797187500006,"end":3761.1815937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3761.75534375,"end":3762.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3763.79721875,"end":3767.0372187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3767.47596875,"end":3769.0790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3769.3322187500007,"end":3770.5809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3770.66534375,"end":3788.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3788.75534375,"end":3794.1384687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3794.1384687500004,"end":3794.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3794.3747187500003,"end":3801.4959687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3801.64784375,"end":3809.2753437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3809.7647187500006,"end":3812.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3813.0722187500005,"end":3841.1522187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3841.7597187500005,"end":3861.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3862.1278437500005,"end":3866.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3866.26221875,"end":3884.5378437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3885.1959687500002,"end":3924.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3925.37534375,"end":3938.8415937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3939.55034375,"end":3955.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3955.5309687500003,"end":3957.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3958.16346875,"end":3966.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3966.85409375,"end":3968.1365937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3968.6765937500004,"end":3993.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3994.0059687500006,"end":3994.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3995.7440937500005,"end":4004.6203437500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4005.1434687500005,"end":4019.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4019.58846875,"end":4043.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4044.3947187500007,"end":4051.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4052.07284375,"end":4055.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4055.9372187500003,"end":4056.9665937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4057.60784375,"end":4081.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4082.73471875,"end":4085.1815937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4085.2322187500004,"end":4087.8815937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4088.3034687500003,"end":4103.997218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4104.09846875,"end":4256.513468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4257.222218749999,"end":4263.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4263.76971875,"end":4279.817843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4280.25659375,"end":4285.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4287.20909375,"end":4289.807843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4290.19596875,"end":4290.702218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4297.18221875,"end":4303.5947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4302.413468750001,"end":4304.657843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4303.814093749999,"end":4304.6747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4305.315968749999,"end":4311.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4311.99846875,"end":4315.997843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4316.50409375,"end":4319.0184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4319.32221875,"end":4320.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4321.212218750001,"end":4336.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4336.669718749999,"end":4340.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4341.0740937499995,"end":4353.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4353.6122187500005,"end":4355.940968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4356.44721875,"end":4356.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4357.4090937500005,"end":4362.2353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4362.741593750001,"end":4364.108468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4364.378468749999,"end":4395.749093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4396.32284375,"end":4405.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4405.46909375,"end":4418.192843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4418.88471875,"end":4421.061593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4421.753468749999,"end":4423.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4423.3397187499995,"end":4425.14534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4425.685343749999,"end":4427.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4428.38534375,"end":4431.169718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4431.557843750001,"end":4455.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4457.03909375,"end":4483.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4483.262843750001,"end":4490.9072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4491.5653437500005,"end":4496.982218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4497.404093749999,"end":4513.452218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4514.78534375,"end":4518.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4518.9872187500005,"end":4520.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4521.11346875,"end":4521.839093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4522.66596875,"end":4524.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4525.399718750001,"end":4529.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4529.97284375,"end":4534.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4535.288468750001,"end":4536.8915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4537.88721875,"end":4539.642218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4540.2665937500005,"end":4542.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4545.126593749999,"end":4547.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4547.759093750001,"end":4550.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4551.218468749999,"end":4554.5428437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4554.57659375,"end":4560.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4560.685343749999,"end":4562.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4563.503468749999,"end":4564.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4565.0897187499995,"end":4565.798468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4567.55346875,"end":4568.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4569.966593749999,"end":4573.392218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4573.780343750001,"end":4588.1747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4588.630343750001,"end":4591.870343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4593.034718749999,"end":4594.6209687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4594.6884687500005,"end":4595.9540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4596.49409375,"end":4599.1434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4599.936593750001,"end":4601.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4601.759093750001,"end":4603.109093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4605.876593749999,"end":4608.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4609.13346875,"end":4610.9559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4611.20909375,"end":4612.542218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4613.807843750001,"end":4614.7528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4615.83284375,"end":4617.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4618.634093750001,"end":4620.47346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4620.692843750001,"end":4622.194718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4622.4647187499995,"end":4622.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4623.00471875,"end":4624.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4624.89471875,"end":4626.700343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4627.47659375,"end":4627.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4628.522843750001,"end":4631.897843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4633.720343749999,"end":4634.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4634.86784375,"end":4635.5428437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4636.302218750001,"end":4636.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4637.41596875,"end":4639.356593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4639.87971875,"end":4640.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4641.550343749999,"end":4641.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4641.972218749999,"end":4661.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4661.81721875,"end":4663.015343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4663.437218749999,"end":4664.466593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4664.9559687500005,"end":4665.732218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4666.019093749999,"end":4667.858468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4669.022843750001,"end":4672.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4672.920968750001,"end":4676.667218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4676.78534375,"end":4678.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4678.675343749999,"end":4684.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4684.682843750001,"end":4696.529093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4697.474093750001,"end":4699.532843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4700.612843750001,"end":4701.692843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4702.722218750001,"end":4703.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4703.63346875,"end":4705.6415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4705.94534375,"end":4707.3290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4707.464093750001,"end":4709.522843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4710.0965937500005,"end":4710.9403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4711.46346875,"end":4712.138468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4713.6572187500005,"end":4715.057843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4717.352843750001,"end":4718.87159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4719.7997187500005,"end":4721.200343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4721.55471875,"end":4723.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4724.2040937500005,"end":4732.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4732.911593750001,"end":4734.936593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4735.47659375,"end":4736.3709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4736.8603437500005,"end":4738.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4738.733468750001,"end":4742.7665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4743.272843750001,"end":4744.403468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4744.960343750001,"end":4748.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4748.6728437500005,"end":4750.394093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4751.052218750001,"end":4752.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4752.604718750001,"end":4756.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4756.452218750001,"end":4758.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4760.012843750001,"end":4764.01221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4764.90659375,"end":4779.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4780.36409375,"end":4785.966593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4786.624718749999,"end":4790.624093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4794.741593750001,"end":4794.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4794.75846875,"end":4807.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4807.296593749999,"end":4813.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4813.92846875,"end":4816.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4816.915343750001,"end":4819.497218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4819.581593750001,"end":4822.399718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4822.97346875,"end":4825.8759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4826.36534375,"end":4842.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4842.39659375,"end":4849.821593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4849.99034375,"end":4983.741593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4983.99471875,"end":4984.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4985.564093749999,"end":4985.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4985.96909375,"end":4985.985968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4987.23471875,"end":4987.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4987.75784375,"end":4987.8084687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4988.12909375,"end":4991.014718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4991.436593750001,"end":4992.14534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4992.66846875,"end":4996.583468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4996.634093750001,"end":5022.8915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5023.78596875,"end":5027.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5034.56909375,"end":5040.829718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5042.17971875,"end":5043.360968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5045.30159375,"end":5046.837218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5047.27596875,"end":5157.182843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5157.216593749999,"end":5176.538468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5177.16284375,"end":5199.319718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5204.34846875,"end":5211.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5211.419093750001,"end":5215.5028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5219.620343750001,"end":5223.75471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5224.210343750001,"end":5232.546593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5233.08659375,"end":5240.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5240.41034375,"end":5309.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5309.935343749999,"end":5317.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5317.90034375,"end":5320.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5321.44409375,"end":5325.544718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5325.966593749999,"end":5341.491593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5344.967843750001,"end":5345.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5345.03534375,"end":5345.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5345.17034375,"end":5345.77784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5345.59221875,"end":5346.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5345.77784375,"end":5345.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5346.925343750001,"end":5353.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5350.89096875,"end":5351.194718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5352.25784375,"end":5358.045968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5356.5947187500005,"end":5357.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5357.26971875,"end":5357.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5358.045968750001,"end":5358.2147187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5358.16409375,"end":5358.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5358.2147187499995,"end":5358.7040937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5358.7040937500005,"end":5358.75471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5358.77159375,"end":5359.075343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5359.075343750001,"end":5362.905968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5363.04096875,"end":5365.3865937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5366.12909375,"end":5368.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5367.02346875,"end":5369.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5368.52534375,"end":5368.727843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5369.841593749999,"end":5370.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5370.01034375,"end":5373.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5370.179093750001,"end":5370.263468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5373.689093749999,"end":5397.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5397.80346875,"end":5399.389718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5399.64284375,"end":5403.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5403.43971875,"end":5407.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5408.18159375,"end":5409.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5410.020968750001,"end":5412.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5412.872843749999,"end":5434.827218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5435.08034375,"end":5462.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5463.48096875,"end":5466.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5466.602843750001,"end":5470.0115937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5470.38284375,"end":5474.483468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5474.7197187500005,"end":5484.7772187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5485.18221875,"end":5507.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5507.35596875,"end":5515.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5515.55721875,"end":5528.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5528.888468749999,"end":5538.827843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5539.14846875,"end":5541.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5542.27034375,"end":5547.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5548.497218750001,"end":5558.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5558.79096875,"end":5565.929093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5566.14846875,"end":5571.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5571.6834687499995,"end":5572.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5573.26971875,"end":5575.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5576.07096875,"end":5584.592843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5584.71096875,"end":5585.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5585.942843750001,"end":5586.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5587.495343750001,"end":5591.055968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5591.30909375,"end":5600.759093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5601.14721875,"end":5614.309718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5614.83284375,"end":5618.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5619.034718750001,"end":5632.3153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5632.720343749999,"end":5634.323468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5634.981593750001,"end":5636.2978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5636.753468750001,"end":5638.170968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5638.626593749999,"end":5642.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5642.760968750001,"end":5644.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5645.849093750001,"end":5647.300343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5647.73909375,"end":5648.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5648.86971875,"end":5652.37971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5653.13909375,"end":5655.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5656.1259687500005,"end":5657.999093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5658.555968750001,"end":5667.044093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5667.48284375,"end":5669.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5669.389718750001,"end":5673.692843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5673.929093750001,"end":5679.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5680.22346875,"end":5691.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5692.08659375,"end":5701.0809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5701.38471875,"end":5704.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5704.827218750001,"end":5707.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5707.98284375,"end":5713.9228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5714.36159375,"end":5716.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5716.724093750001,"end":5735.843468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5736.99096875,"end":5744.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5744.44971875,"end":5745.749093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5746.120343750001,"end":5746.55909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5746.94721875,"end":5751.655343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5759.4178437499995,"end":5832.874718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5834.612843750001,"end":5840.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5840.02971875,"end":5841.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5841.39659375,"end":5841.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5842.442843750001,"end":5853.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5854.154093749999,"end":5944.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5946.10596875,"end":5946.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5946.882218750001,"end":5948.232218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5948.232218749999,"end":5948.249093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5948.232218749999,"end":5955.977843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5948.249093750001,"end":5948.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5956.450343750001,"end":5962.3397187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5962.727843750001,"end":5974.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5974.89471875,"end":5985.1884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5984.935343749999,"end":5995.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5986.65659375,"end":5987.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5995.93784375,"end":6009.606593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6009.876593750001,"end":6011.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6011.83409375,"end":6015.310343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6013.65659375,"end":6013.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6015.310343749999,"end":6018.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6019.24221875,"end":6025.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6024.28784375,"end":6025.874093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6025.9247187500005,"end":6026.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6027.47721875,"end":6029.384093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6030.312218749999,"end":6041.2978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6040.2684687500005,"end":6042.512843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6042.19221875,"end":6056.147843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6056.45159375,"end":6061.868468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6061.9697187500005,"end":6062.577218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6062.003468750001,"end":6070.491593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6065.530343750001,"end":6066.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6066.036593750001,"end":6067.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6067.31909375,"end":6067.3865937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6067.3865937499995,"end":6067.403468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6067.403468750001,"end":6067.487843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6067.825343750001,"end":6067.859093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6070.3397187499995,"end":6098.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6080.481593750001,"end":6082.017218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6099.19596875,"end":6100.731593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6101.575343750001,"end":6102.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6102.94221875,"end":6104.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6105.591593749999,"end":6122.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6122.517218750001,"end":6126.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6127.444718750001,"end":6129.419093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6129.4697187500005,"end":6166.1728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6166.577843749999,"end":6208.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6210.43596875,"end":6216.831593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6216.84846875,"end":6225.2353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6225.62346875,"end":6233.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6233.77409375,"end":6264.132218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6264.503468750001,"end":6292.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6294.270968750001,"end":6295.452218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6294.692843750001,"end":6294.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6295.46909375,"end":6295.5028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6295.5028437500005,"end":6295.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6295.51971875,"end":6295.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6295.97534375,"end":6332.610968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6333.792218750001,"end":6335.715968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6335.91846875,"end":6355.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6355.74659375,"end":6363.829718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6363.829718750001,"end":6366.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6366.090968750001,"end":6367.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6367.93034375,"end":6371.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6370.46159375,"end":6373.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6372.267218750001,"end":6373.212218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6373.56659375,"end":6376.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6375.89534375,"end":6384.130343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6381.90284375,"end":6487.253468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6406.37159375,"end":6407.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6407.02971875,"end":6407.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6407.97471875,"end":6409.020968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6409.05471875,"end":6409.155968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6487.94534375,"end":6500.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6491.843468749999,"end":6494.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6494.03721875,"end":6496.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6497.26034375,"end":6498.981593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6500.02784375,"end":6500.9559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6500.9559687500005,"end":6502.575968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6500.97284375,"end":6508.870343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6509.44409375,"end":6561.368468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6561.4022187499995,"end":6575.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6575.982218749999,"end":6647.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6648.05534375,"end":6675.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6675.57846875,"end":6677.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6678.24471875,"end":6693.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6693.651593750001,"end":6698.190968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6698.78159375,"end":6708.653468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6709.56471875,"end":6719.30159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6719.335343750001,"end":6723.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6724.077218750001,"end":6725.528468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6726.06846875,"end":6732.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6733.03784375,"end":6747.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6747.19596875,"end":6754.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6755.41409375,"end":6760.122218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6761.0165937500005,"end":6761.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6761.97846875,"end":6786.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6791.96534375,"end":6792.032843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6793.0790937500005,"end":6796.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6796.13346875,"end":6796.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6796.36971875,"end":6796.4540937500005}],"whisperx":[{"start":2086.667,"end":2102.287,"text":"好 那我們現在開始開會各位委員大家好我們今天是要協商國土計劃法那國土計劃法呢它攸關人民的權益社會高度關切那我們"},{"start":2106.192,"end":2132.75,"text":"在10月24號就是今年10月24號我們開了國土計劃法修正草案的公聽會那在11月7號我們也進行國土計劃法修正草案的第一次初步審查會議在11月21號我們進行了國土計劃法修正草案的審查那也審查完畢出了委員會所以本次協商呢向各位報告我們第7條"},{"start":2135.191,"end":2138.352,"text":"在國土計劃法的第7條、第23條、第35條還有第40條都有在11月21號內政委員會審議決議修正通過所以這4條原則上看看"},{"start":2152.545,"end":2177.024,"text":"這個各黨團是不是可以這個認同依委員會的決議作為本次協商會議的決議這個等一下大家都可以表達意見那第八條的部分國土署有建議的文字請委員們可以參考第45條就是延期條款那委員會保留等一下也請各黨團以及各位委員們發表高見"},{"start":2179.085,"end":2196.275,"text":"看看今天是不是可以協商能夠達到共識那另外有第32條之一關於農地發展權的部分那是淨富二讀的法案這一次也併案協商等一下我們會請提案人徐宇甄委員說明也會請主管機關來回應"},{"start":2199.597,"end":2225.563,"text":"那以上是今天大致協商需要處理的條文的一個概括那依例呢本席先介紹我們在場的委員以及行政機關列席的代表那我們首先我們介紹鄭天才委員麥玉珍委員許宇珍委員蔡易餘"},{"start":2227.15,"end":2253.558,"text":"委員您在民進黨的那個你們黨團的職稱是書記長蔡易餘書記長還有林黛樺委員接下來我們介紹我們今天列席的出席的行政官員我們內政部部長劉部長釋芳內政部政務次長董次長建宏"},{"start":2256.755,"end":2280.181,"text":"農業部政務次長胡忠一次長我們還有內政部國土署署長吳興修署長以及經濟部綜合規劃司副司長許嘉琳副司長人民會副主委杜章梅莊副主委"},{"start":2286.165,"end":2288.168,"text":"財政部有兩位專門委員張潔祐專委跟何慧麗專委法務部的廖江縣參事"},{"start":2300.001,"end":2324.036,"text":"還有國家科學及技術委員會的產學及園區業務處副處長陳昭榮副處長行政院主計總處的戴群芳專門委員戴專委有到嗎有在後面好謝謝好那我們現在呢就那等一下好了等一下"},{"start":2328.922,"end":2346.477,"text":"那我們是不是先讓我們各位委員來發表這個意見還是剛剛本席所說的這樣好了我們在委員會已經照案通過審查結果的第7條、第35條、第40條"},{"start":2351.761,"end":2354.562,"text":"還有23條對第7條第23條第35條第40條是不是這4條就照委員會好那請鄭天才委員有關這個第23條大家看23條23條在這個一二三第三項"},{"start":2380.834,"end":2390.179,"text":"前項就是這個修正的條文前項規則中涉及原住民族土地及部落之使用管制者這一計劃"},{"start":2392.762,"end":2416.221,"text":"因為現行的條文是原住民族土地及海域本席當初提出的修正條文是原住民族土地海域後面是加了部落及部落周邊一定範圍之土地使用管制者當時上次協商的時候"},{"start":2418.082,"end":2443.452,"text":"這個大家是針對部落桌邊一定範圍這個認定比較有大家有顧慮了因為這個部落桌邊一定範圍當然這個條文也不是新開創的是現行的原住民族基本法21條裡面的文字但是大家還是對這個部落桌邊一定範圍所以後來把這個部落桌邊一定範圍這個刪除掉了"},{"start":2444.272,"end":2472.646,"text":"但是現行條文原來有的那個海域是不是我建議還是應該留著上次是只是把那個部落周邊一定範圍這個因為比較難大家比較有疑慮所以刪除是不是把海域還是留著所以是原住民族土地海域及部落是使用管制者以上好那這個行政單位是不是有回應"},{"start":2476.415,"end":2477.862,"text":"好 請袁明慧副主委"},{"start":2479.811,"end":2508.966,"text":"跟委員說明,那個一開始是有海域的這樣的文字後來上一次協調的時候我們有跟委員說明委員就希望說要加部落一定範圍的部分那當時海域的部分是沒有特別說一定要放在裡面當然原條文是有那當然放在裡面對整個使用管制上是有幫助但是實務上海域要去做一些管制的話可能涉及的層面更廣那我們的意見是說如果要保留它的話可能我們還要再"},{"start":2509.864,"end":2516.737,"text":"評估看有沒有辦法定得出海域的部分因為這個傳統海域的發射事實上目前還沒有一個比較具體的範圍"},{"start":2519.07,"end":2545.441,"text":"我的建議啦就是說海域還是留著但是現行你們已經跟內政部研擬的那個使用管制規則現在目前還用不到海域就先不定在那個使用管制規則裡面因為這是現行的條文啦現行的條文只是把那個部落加上去就好了那所以為那個35條第一項的部分要一併調整是不是"},{"start":2552.483,"end":2553.463,"text":"所以是不是第23條就照鄭天才委員剛剛所說的把海域加上去"},{"start":2569.998,"end":2597.045,"text":"主席這個23條齁那因為我看到政委的版本他除了土地海域還有叫做部落以及部落周邊一定範圍那這個部落周邊一定範圍他就是只有部落好那是不是這部分我想是不是還是要讓那個主管機關要表示一下意見"},{"start":2598.866,"end":2618.566,"text":"請大家可以看一下螢幕我們把這個溝通正在討論溝通的結果我們就秀出來所以政委員提出就是說他除了土地還要加海域現行條文留著是不是可以"},{"start":2619.304,"end":2644.34,"text":"當然以一般來講我們的法律體力是你現在有的話圖管就一定要有但現在的狀況是在圖管根本現在不會有所以我們也是擔心這樣的體力出來以後會變成說到時候又要被又要被再加訂啦這樣我覺得是不是確定可以的話再一起處理就好了因為變成體力上就對不起來我知道"},{"start":2656.618,"end":2678.792,"text":"那這個部分要不要待會我們可以先往下這個你們溝通一下因為其實現在如果沒有海域的話其實現在都還行得通啦我是說到時候有具體的時候再一起處理看委員覺得怎麼樣因為反而相對你有的話計畫書或什麼要有的話其實都還來得及加啦"},{"start":2681.55,"end":2693.795,"text":"好 政委員我們因為現行條文有我們把它刪除這個我們只是說希望能夠更好的話就是加那個部落因為部落確實是需要的來 朱祁英"},{"start":2699.926,"end":2727.825,"text":"主席我想這部分基本上就是政委員他說要部落那如果主管機關也認為這部分可以這我們是沒什麼意見那就海域的部分有涉及到他的管制的對象那剛剛主管機關好像也有一些認為疑慮的地方那我想這部分是不是我們可以先保留那未來在院長的朝野協商的時候我們再來進一步的溝通"},{"start":2728.806,"end":2730.028,"text":"我只是說齁我只是說因為"},{"start":2740.034,"end":2760.241,"text":"你們內政部跟園民會已經在溝通學了很多次的使用管制規則你們也是一線型的條文定的啊海域還是在那邊啊所以不要太堅持我們只是把部落放進去主席可不可以讓園民會講個話好不好園民會你怎麼看"},{"start":2765.939,"end":2789.517,"text":"我剛好表達過說原本的那個條文是有海域啦那上一次委員修說是海域是拿掉的啦那我說上一次上一次協調的時候是拿掉的那現在這個海域因為它原本的條文是有那我們事實上跟內政部也在協調這個相關的執法的部分你自己認不認為應該把海域跟部落放進去我們可能認為說那個海域跟部落放進去是OK的啦"},{"start":2790.27,"end":2813.046,"text":"你認為在現況的我們這個過渡機關去納入的話有沒有便於而且更明確讓你去執行你在部落跟海域的一個輔導也好或者是一個管理也好你自己本身身為園民會的主管機關你自己要表達你現況的管理面、輔導面上"},{"start":2815.147,"end":2835.174,"text":"併案審查委員吳琪銘等16人：一、本院內政委員吳琪銘等16人、委員陳超明等19人、委員陳超明等19人、委員吳琪銘等16人、委員陳超明等19人、委員陳超明等19人、委員陳超明等19人、委員陳超明等19人、委員陳超明等19人、委員陳超明等19人、委員陳超明等19人、委員陳超明等19人、委員陳超明等19人、委員陳超明等19人、委員陳超明等19人、委員陳超明等19人、委員陳超明等19人、委員陳超明等19人、委員陳超明等19人、委員陳超明等19人、委員陳超明等19人、委員陳"},{"start":2837.895,"end":2862.051,"text":"海域 什麼叫做海域它的範圍 它要去定義它包括部落 這個我們常常一直講有沒有需要在你的國土計劃法當中相關的執法當中 再明確去定義所以你本身是主管機關那你自己就要表達那至於那個內容定義的部分你可以讓國土署來參考你所謂的定義好不好 你再明確講一下"},{"start":2864.337,"end":2883.812,"text":"針對海域的部分我們之前在協調的時候我們的使用管制規則裡面事實上當時有寫了一條的有關於海域的它也是延續那個延期法的那個精神就是這個非營利使用的這個採集它是免申請類似這樣的條款事實上在管制規則我們目前協調的部分是有"},{"start":2884.781,"end":2903.715,"text":"是有這個部分所以我們認為是說如果以當時我們協調那樣的版本其實海域在這個原的法院裡面放海域其實我們是認同說是可以的那部落呢部落本來就在裡面了本來就有了那周邊拿掉你覺得也沒也應該要拿掉"},{"start":2904.733,"end":2923.349,"text":"一定範圍那個是我們跟委員說希望拿掉因為那個戒指不好是不是這樣進行主席這個原民會畢竟有我們原民的主在如果主管機關都認同那我就覺得放入只是說裡面的內容是國土署他覺得哪裡是不宜的"},{"start":2923.969,"end":2938.854,"text":"裏面的內容他認為這個海域的部分他在議題裡不同他剛才講了一個什麼之前的法令沒有什麼的法裡面是沒有規範的那就是加進去而已而且那個是行政作為他們自己可以處理的"},{"start":2941.522,"end":2969.567,"text":"所以林委員是認同政經財委員加海運對因為對今天是最主要是主管機關我今天是聽主管機關他本身是原住民委員會那我覺得現在主管機關都說應該要有那我覺得民意跟主管機關是認同那我覺得是不是應該要放入那國土計劃法的上邊的文字是可以去甄列的啊國土署是可以去甄列的啊"},{"start":2972.323,"end":2972.766,"text":"好,請留不著"},{"start":2974.28,"end":3001.124,"text":"做這個總結的回應因為我看這個第23條的第一段他是在處理有關禁止跟限制使用那剛剛我問一下原民會他們會認為說如果在海域裡面的話大概是只有採集比如說可能或者是其他的捕撈類似這樣子但是我們講海域的部分的話在內政部跟原民會的主管之外"},{"start":3001.744,"end":3026.94,"text":"其實還會有國防部的海軍或者是海洋委員會他們的海巡需要在處理的這個區域也就是說有海的部分跟有陸的部分或是島礁的這部分都是要做一個比較嚴格的定義那目前為止因為今天來出席的就是我們內政部跟那個園民會所以我們會認為說是不是把它放到保留的部分"},{"start":3027.56,"end":3055.959,"text":"因為我的意思就是說如果你把它放進去變成太多的限制或是太多的禁止都不是好事那所以我是覺得說看政委員尤其是提案的委員可不可以給一點時間那剛剛我們蔡易餘書記長特別提到給我們一點時間我們再來思考一下我們都知道就是這個有一些是屬於海洋性的這個原民部落有需求那怎麼個需求放到原民圖館的部分後我們一定會照這樣的方向來處理但是現在把它放進去的話有點是"},{"start":3058.02,"end":3086.838,"text":"牽涉到其他部會不是新的放是原來就有了我不是是原來就有了我知道但是在這一條裡面呢它並不是放寬喔你要注意看一下所以我是覺得說這個要多加思考啦因為這一條條文原來的就有含義現行條文現行條文就有那如果這個行政單位跟我們提案委員的意見沒有辦法還沒有辦法取得公示是不是對那我們第23條我們就保留好不好"},{"start":3088.493,"end":3115.488,"text":"那所以我們第23條原本要修正喔那現在就是保留那我們想確定第7條、第35條、第40條是不是照之前內政委員會審查的結果大家有沒有意見好 請邱委書記長就是說因為這些條文基本上因為國土法我們委員會有審查但是我想有一些條文我們是不是都還是可以在"},{"start":3116.587,"end":3126.891,"text":"吳琪銘等16人、委員陳超明等21人、委員吳琪琪等21人、委員陳超明等21人、委員吳琪琪等21人、委員吳琪琪等21人、委員吳琪琪等21人、委員吳琪琪等21人、委員吳琪琪等21人、委員吳琪琪等21人、委員吳琪琪等21人、委員吳琪琪等21人、委員吳琪琪等21人、委員吳琪琪等21人、委員吳琪琪等21人、委員吳琪琪等21人、委員吳琪琪等21人、委員吳琪琪等21人、委員吳琪琪等21人、委員吳"},{"start":3146.684,"end":3153.509,"text":"第八條國土署有建議的文字請委員們參考看大家有沒有什麼意見那請國土署說明建議文字"},{"start":3172.484,"end":3198.758,"text":"建議文字就是在這個原條文的第三大項裡面直轄市縣市政府主管機關擬定直轄市縣市國路計劃時的辦理鄉村地區整體規劃並是實際需要研擬鄉村地區計劃納入直轄市縣市國路計劃並得以另以覆測方式定之那這個就是因為之前"},{"start":3200.739,"end":3226.234,"text":"這個鄉村第一整理規劃原來的作業方式是你訂了以後那再納到通盤檢討裡面去那當然因為地方政府有一些有希望有一個比較明確而且快速的一個執行那所以我們在這裡呢也認同在地方政府他的確有做鄉村第一整理規劃並且有明訂他的一個執行方式那所以我們才建議就那就在第八條裡面"},{"start":3227.634,"end":3253.866,"text":"強化這條條文的法令執行的效力直接放進去的話而且得以覆測的方式來訂製就是讓他很明確這一本規劃報告如果經過審查確實是有可以明確執行的方式的話他可以另以覆測方式訂製他不用再通盤檢討主意去載明是這樣方式"},{"start":3256.213,"end":3279.079,"text":"好 謝謝吳署長的說明 請問在座的委員對第八條有沒有什麼意見 請徐玉珍委員我認同那個國土署的 對 對 請徐玉珍委員好 謝謝主席 針對第八條的部分 我想是不是這個部分也跟其他條文一樣 就是也是保留送協商 謝謝"},{"start":3281.394,"end":3309.217,"text":"那請林代化委員我認同國土署他這個讓地方政府當中有明確的針對尤其鄉村地區的計劃如果有需要的話他也納入這個直轄縣市國土這個是對於有鄉村的一個縣市來講會尊重地方政府的給地方政府有明確的一個依據我個人是很支持的"},{"start":3311.437,"end":3322.111,"text":"謝謝林黛嬅委員還有沒有其他委員要表達意見如果沒有的話那我們還是保留那我們第八條我們也保留"},{"start":3324.702,"end":3344.708,"text":"好那請行政單位請是次長是董事長要跟委員們報告那第八條我們還是希望說能夠那個照審查通過因為其實各縣市政府我們都有補助相關的相規那大家也都進行進行到一段一定程度包括雲林縣包括嘉義縣包括"},{"start":3345.368,"end":3366.028,"text":"高雄市政府、新北市、桃園市我們都有補助所以我們是希望說這些補助包括澎湖我們都希望說透過這個法令我們就入法那這些已經在進行的案子我們就可以很快的放入以覆測的方式放入我們國土計畫裡面這樣就可以保障大家地方上的權益所以這一點還是懇請委員給我們支持謝謝"},{"start":3369.964,"end":3382.907,"text":"我想這個部分我覺得還是我們保留送協商大家可以再充分的討論好那我們第8條還是我們也保留第8條也保留那接下來我們討論第45條那請國土署說明45條就是有關是否要這個延期的"},{"start":3400.046,"end":3427.927,"text":"好那45條因為目前其實我們在到目前截止已經有16個縣市政府都有送來那其實到目前我們已經完成了9個這個國土計畫的審查那當然依照在行政單位來講我們在這幾年都依據法令規定來持續來進行所以我們希望還是能夠讓努力讓我們來能夠如期來完成這樣的一個國土計畫所以這一點部分在行政單位"},{"start":3428.787,"end":3453.908,"text":"當然還是覺得我們希望是如期請董事長我們行政單位說完我們再請委員們我也補充說明一下除了已經繳交的16個縣市以外我們這幾天我們也積極跟幾個地方縣市首長我們都有直接通電話包括我也跟雲林縣張縣長南投縣徐縣長然後新北市的劉副市長"},{"start":3455.549,"end":3474.519,"text":"還有台中市的黃副市長我們都有直接通電話還有彰化縣的王縣長他們都直接承諾我他們會在年底就是這沒幾天他們會在年底之前繳交國土計畫所以大概目前可能我們還是積極努力所以希望說我們儘量就是說能夠如期讓我們能夠"},{"start":3476.621,"end":3502.802,"text":"將這個對於關於整個國家重大的國土空間的計畫能夠把它完成那當然我們也同意就是說一旦送進來之後我們經過審查之後事實上就可以馬上啟動那個通盤檢討那透過啟動通盤檢討那將大家很多疑義的部分就在進行那個進一步的修正那事實上雲林縣張縣長也告訴我他送進來的草案他就是把他們已經修訂好的那個包括農一農二的空間的轉換"},{"start":3503.782,"end":3512.005,"text":"這個都送進來我們也都承諾我們會依照地方的特色我們來做經景的審查那希望能夠爭取委員們的支持謝謝好那請林淑芬委員"},{"start":3519.468,"end":3545.793,"text":"主席我是要談說那個高金素美委員有一個修正動議而這個修正動議就是說其實在這個有報佈審議完成的已經有14個縣市了那其他沒有承諾要報佈已經16個了然後完成審議了所以事實上他們可以先行這個施行畢竟2015年就已經完成立法2015年到現在已經將近10年了快10年了"},{"start":3547.873,"end":3563.432,"text":"所以在這種狀況裡面是不是能夠讓這個報佈而且審議完成的人先行那只要修正一個文字就是說一併公告的這個一併拿掉以後呢大家就可以分階段先走的人然後準備好的人先行這樣子高金樹北委員的修正動議"},{"start":3569.594,"end":3589.331,"text":"其他還有沒有委員請許宇甄委員謝謝主席其實有關這個國土計劃法是不是要展延的部分其實主要的癥結點還是在於就是說其實糧食安全應該是要全國一起來負擔不應該由農業縣或是農民就是來負擔所有的權責所以現在我想癥結點這些農業縣的癥結點就在於說"},{"start":3592.294,"end":3614.611,"text":"針對農民的損失但目前政府並沒有提出相關的配套措施比如說該針對他們的特別犧牲該給予怎麼樣的補償那其實我想這個國土計劃法已經其實立法也超過8年了那有關機關也還沒有辦法提出良好的對策跟補償的方案那既然政府要限制農地的使用方式那就應該要給農民的補償我覺得這樣對辛苦耕種的農民才有保障"},{"start":3618.895,"end":3632.327,"text":"因為為了保障農民的權益我們還是希望等到有關機關能夠提出相關的修法保障農民的權益所以我們還是希望能夠展延至於展延的年限的話我覺得這個都可以討論至於剛剛董事長有特別提到我們幾個農業縣市的縣市長都有說年底之前12月30日前會提出其實他們的想法是說"},{"start":3642.637,"end":3666.309,"text":"希望在如期的提出是希望說在這段時間還是要有提出對於我們農業的這個農民的損失要提出賠償或對策的方案而不是說只是說我提出已經對這個這部法沒有意見他只是說希望能夠不要變成說全國好像只有誰沒有提出那還是希望說希望這個部分應該還是要提出相關的配套措施以上好那請問還有沒有好請蔡書記講"},{"start":3672.093,"end":3698.175,"text":"好 謝謝主席那主席我們看到這個45條幾乎很多版本那版本中有希望再展延那也有其他的不同那我自己有一個版本那我的版本主要還是針對因為我們未來我們知道農業縣在面對國土計畫如果正式上路之後對於農業縣他們土地的一個利用"},{"start":3698.916,"end":3701.157,"text":"每一個縣市他們承擔的說他們國土保育區或農業發展區的一個土地的一個比例"},{"start":3724.322,"end":3745.188,"text":"讓這個縣市因為他們負責更多的糧食安全或者是負責更多的一個水源的供給那他們應該要拿到更多的統籌分配那很可惜事實上我在財政委員會我的財化法都沒有被討論那現在三讀後也沒有把"},{"start":3747.328,"end":3754.995,"text":"兩市安全和水源地的標準列在這個統籌分配的這個評分的一個配比的一個配比所以變成說我這個我自己這個提案在於"},{"start":3764.123,"end":3784.172,"text":"跟財化法的聯動看起來變得遙遙無期了啦可能也都沒辦法處理到啦所以我是想說在這樣的一個情況之下那還有其他這麼多委員的版本所以我建議啦我們這個大概爭議最大的就是在這個45條那我想這個我還是主張我們是不是保留朝野協商然後大家再來做這個通盤的一個討論好 謝謝"},{"start":3789.163,"end":3808.652,"text":"好 謝謝 請林黛嬅委員接下來請林淑芬委員好 這個我也贊成在朝野協商當中再去討論以我高雄市來講我們整個東高雄、旗美地區9區我們的人口流失非常嚴重"},{"start":3809.853,"end":3817.216,"text":"我的出生率已經降到3.77%我60歲以上的占比是34.11%聽好哦60歲以上是占34.41%一個高雄市的城鄉差距是這麼大那現在我要來處理就是所謂的農業的非都市計劃內的這個農地的問題也就是在我高雄市之後你更限制了"},{"start":3838.644,"end":3865.72,"text":"我整個在榮地佔最多的東高雄跟非都市計劃內的榮地好那對於城鄉發展的這個部分是否能夠適宜性的做產業的發展就業制就業增加就業機會在相關所有的配套沒有講清楚之前本席是反對都市計劃法的通過配套如果沒有"},{"start":3867.321,"end":3876.651,"text":"國土計劃法當中的配套沒有提出來的時候那就是延期要把配套重於我的主計劃再來我們說這個國土計劃法當中要達到的目的是什麼我們講到說要糧食安全就以現況"},{"start":3885.52,"end":3910.956,"text":"糧食安全的風險這個通過之後自給率是下降的龍一的面積是少於區域計劃法當中的特定農業區原本約有3萬到4萬公頃的河川地在不影響防洪的前提下長期做農業使用是臺灣重要蔬菜、瓜類產地卻要被列為國土保育法"},{"start":3912.317,"end":3938.378,"text":"在都市計劃下的10萬公頃的農地當中農業部也曾經盤點有將近3萬公頃能是優良的農地應放在農業發展地區的第五類但最後各縣市政府卻是依據城市發展需求將大部分符合完整且高比率農業條件的農地放入了城鄉發展地區"},{"start":3939.822,"end":3967.725,"text":"該放的不放那目前有在做農作的不該放的你要放上述三個地區超過家種就超過10萬公頃的面積是重要生產力的農地卻未被列入優良農地的範圍這樣農地發展地區的話色恐讓台灣的農業生產力降低導致糧食自主力的下降影響糧食安全的風險好那再來"},{"start":3969.126,"end":3992.511,"text":"農地管理及品質有沒有提升我認為沒有如果這個法通過農業部原先依據全國國土計劃法發射來模擬農醫面積是33萬7千公頃但各縣市政府提報的農醫的面積是多少27萬7千公頃相較之下少了6萬少了6萬"},{"start":3996.039,"end":4017.173,"text":"倘若土地管理制度如果沒有合理的配套處理一定造成農業生產力的下降好再來阻礙農業發展許多農業休閒地區或農場被化為國土保育地區限縮了具百億產值的休閒農場的發展"},{"start":4019.654,"end":4043.283,"text":"若以為將山坡地直接化為國土保育區就達到保育的目標而不細緻我強調細緻區分環境敏感程度及影響輕重除了畫色成果完全和事實有嚴重的落差也可能造成保育跟農業雙輸以我高雄市原高雄縣"},{"start":4044.503,"end":4050.67,"text":"是我農業區的重鎮元高雄縣是我元高雄市的19倍面積耶我們的配套以及劃分的細膩性"},{"start":4056.027,"end":4080.804,"text":"是沒有的所以這個部分我站在高雄市民全高雄市民成鄉要均衡發展高高高平共榮成鄉共好這個理念之下如果配套沒有百分百的給我提出來本席我是反對現有的規劃要馬上通過所以我建議就是延期那我也贊成保留協商 謝謝"},{"start":4083.994,"end":4103.53,"text":"謝謝林代化委員我們這個討論了那麼久可是怎麼高雄的委員都還對於我們這個國土計劃法有這麼多的這樣的施行感覺還不是很OK所以我本心是希望行政單位應該要多溝通那我們接下來請林淑芬委員"},{"start":4104.13,"end":4108.612,"text":"好 各位在2015年要立法的時候我們就考慮到這個對地方對行政還有對這個農業地區的人會很大的衝擊所以我們其實是給了8年至少8年的這個準備了並不是說一完成立法就馬上要怎麼樣其實沒有如果大家覺得8年不夠可是我們知道看來16個縣市他們認為足夠了所以他們已經送出來而且已經完成審議了所以我們的意思是說那不夠的人大家想個辦法"},{"start":4134.005,"end":4138.609,"text":"就脫鉤嘛已經完成審議的人那你就先行那不夠的人就你要慢慢來你就慢慢來但是不要給他定時你要定時定6年定8年然後呢人家準備好的人他就已經準備好你叫他不能施行所以我們是不是能夠務實一點的討論就是說我們把疑病疑病這個字眼拿掉"},{"start":4158.105,"end":4173.038,"text":"那前面的到底是要幾年或是不要框幾年限縮死了你可能4年後那中央去指定施行日期那中央你就是不要一併分階段準備好的先行這樣子"},{"start":4173.899,"end":4178.042,"text":"這樣是很務實的就是你現在定了8年定了6年然後呢人家準備好的你還讓他不能上路在這種狀況裡面有可能準備好的地方的他們的大家為了搶這個過渡時期所以農地會持續流失和破碎化那他沒有辦法維持一個合理的運用大家都搶個案變更而且個案變更的申請數量已經暴增了的確都是暴增了我們今天在講說個別縣市以外你要考量全國"},{"start":4203.679,"end":4229.227,"text":"全國的這一些國土的規劃我們事實上國土計劃法並不是說洪水猛獸事實上也很多縣市他因為這個國土計劃法通過了以後呢這一些縣市他們有可能可以增加自己規劃他們因為有彈性可以比如說他們自訂可以因為地方特殊需求訂出管制規則阿里山縣阿里山鄉可以阿里山民宿區雲林的寺廟專區等等"},{"start":4230.908,"end":4254.469,"text":"那我們其實在裡面也允許一些這個新建農舍等相關設施並不是完全沒有彈性但是你主張這樣子就沒有辦法個案變更想要維持個案變更的沒關係 那你就慢一點那我們準備好的先行所以因為這樣子高金素美委員才會有一個修正動議所以如果這個大家是不是先討論我們戰不戰成分階段"},{"start":4257.287,"end":4279.516,"text":"準備好的先行那分階段準備好的先行那文字應該怎麼修才是最恰當的那沒有準備好的我們也不強迫他但文字要怎麼修可以讓他們不被強迫到如果這樣子逃退而求其次啦大家都不要太把它鎖死我們也不鎖死現在馬上那如果也不鎖死說阿一定要規定6年8年以後那我們讓準備好的先行那要怎麼處理很務實的來討論這樣子"},{"start":4287.404,"end":4290.567,"text":"好 謝謝接著請劉建國委員發言好 謝謝主席可以請坐啦請坐啦因為不一定會請行政官員回座因為是林委員講完我接續講林委員講的講完我基本上"},{"start":4312.128,"end":4340.181,"text":"是尊重但是正在內政部、正在農業部如果單純以農業的這個規劃來去做思考對於國土計畫在整體這個四個公共分區裡面我們的占比是怎麼樣我相信正在中央主管機關有一定的這樣的一個科學的一些根據跟盤查所以這個案如果說已經準備好了先行"},{"start":4341.121,"end":4365.64,"text":"那後面的再補上來那會不會跟你們原有的評估相關的科學這些根據有所落差那萬一有落差的時候能有去做調整哪一個縣市他必須要去做調整哪一個縣市他要檢要爭誰來做這樣的一個決定那地方政府願意願意願意這樣接受嗎"},{"start":4366.721,"end":4394.168,"text":"因為國土計畫基本上二屆就是縣市政府的公告這很清楚現在來到中央所以中央跟地方必須要充分合作然後非常的清楚把整個這樣的一個四大的功能盤整得非常非常到位他有夠格去做國土計畫不然我覺得如果整個在執行過程裡面幾個縣市是這樣幾個縣市又是那樣"},{"start":4396.38,"end":4417.979,"text":"到時候破壞整體的一個制度、佔比也會造成未來國土計畫的破碎性跟被人民挑戰這是第一件事情第二件事情我一直有在特別強調就是說當時為什麼在小康政府的時候會延了三年"},{"start":4418.94,"end":4427.473,"text":"那當時延伸三年最主要理由是什麼?好,現在時間到了那當年延的理由現在有消滅掉了嗎?"},{"start":4428.43,"end":4455.553,"text":"如果當時演的理由到現在要去執行反而還沒有消滅掉的時候那現在怎麼有辦法去執行這是第二件事情那第三件事情剛剛參議員也特別提到那天也是在這個財務法裡面我特別提到的一件事情我們在講財政訴訟法為什麼要跟國土計畫會連結在一塊因為那天很可惜財政訴訟法我們都在講收我們沒有在講支"},{"start":4457.339,"end":4479.699,"text":"只講收不講資啦所以那個陳浩華那天在秀的時候已經違背了財政雙數方法的整個公平性跟他的原意相對的我們雲林縣、農業大縣各位都非常清楚一直在講糧食自給率、自給率我們在糧食自給率的供應、貢獻有多大農業部有幫我們講話嗎?有幫我們把這個東西盤整出來嗎?"},{"start":4483.402,"end":4496.483,"text":"不是只有銀縣、嘉義、彰化、屏東等報完剛剛林大法委員特別提到了東高雄這些原有的農業用地現在在區域計畫裡面就是特農跟一般農"},{"start":4497.852,"end":4523.994,"text":"那顧名思義可能不是100%的轉嫁啦比如說特農就一定變成農醫但是依照我們雲林縣原有的規劃5萬5的在區計畫裡面的特農變成農醫之後是成了6萬我不曉得國民署跟農業部有沒有去看到這樣的事情那我雲林縣一年產值八九百億屏東人產值七百多億"},{"start":4525.441,"end":4532.289,"text":"屏東現在的特農是1萬1變成國土經濟化之後的農業剩下5500那雲林原本是5萬5國土經濟化的農業之後變成6萬我們足足大過屏東12倍"},{"start":4546.172,"end":4565.583,"text":"這個你們要去思考啊我現在讓你聽地方政委說他現在在做調整了他有在調整了他怎麼調整他調整起來合不合乎整個農業貢獻的這個縣市的農役的占比包含農二包含農三等這個占比公平嗎這個大家講清楚啊"},{"start":4570.034,"end":4591.685,"text":"在這個沒有講清楚的情況之下然後我們又是依照當時什麼樣的根據然後去做這樣的一個規劃為何原先是這樣的規劃那現在當然有一些討論有一些質疑有一些挑戰的情況之下又去做了大幅的修正喔"},{"start":4593.103,"end":4602.791,"text":"現在不到6萬了,剩下多少,你們都比我更清楚因為你們都有各別隊、各縣市去做聯繫嘛這個轉換這麼多,這個窗戶誰要負責任啊怎麼一下子可以這樣,一下子又可以那樣那你中央全部報給你,你都能概括承受嗎?你都接受嗎?所以你要跟我講國土計畫的執行"},{"start":4619.049,"end":4640.617,"text":"對農民而言、對農業而言、對私農工商而言、對都內跟非都所有的土地的這樣的一個運用規劃站在一個國家的上位土地的一個規劃的計劃裡面我這樣搞下去我會覺得我無所遵循啦我無所遵循"},{"start":4642.161,"end":4667.594,"text":"所以我當然知道說有許多縣市人家七早八早可能透過很多的專家學者教授專業的團隊顧問進駐長期的去把這整個空間盤整出來如何去跟如果有三級政府的去跟鄉鎮市透過鄉規透過其他的這樣的一個評估很認真的很用心的然後站在不管是站在這一個"},{"start":4669.539,"end":4696.206,"text":"站在這個農民的角度站在農地的角度去好好去做思考他規劃出來可能他現在已經到位了他們地方有沒有什麼意見我覺得剛剛林委員所講的確實啊有些人你要準備好你該讓人家上路去上路啊但是我說回歸到中央你站在全國的去面對到到底你是在八十萬的農地七十萬的農地六十萬的農地然後分布在所謂的農一到農五"},{"start":4697.506,"end":4714.636,"text":"你中央定奪了嗎?你中央決定了嗎?到時候如果先後訴訟的情況之下又沒有照你們如期的這樣的一個規劃、目標的面積那除了插入誰負責?是地方負責還是中央負責?這個大家要講清楚啊"},{"start":4720.221,"end":4744.075,"text":"這個一定要講清楚最後一點我特別強調當我們在供給這樣的一個糧食全國算是最大宗的蔬果包含畜牧業幾乎算是最大的情況之下在財政訴諸荒野的時候怎麼這個分配沒有把農業的這樣的一個貢獻去把它分配出來"},{"start":4745.031,"end":4762.28,"text":"那我現在在國土計畫裡面我們要把這個東西塞進去塞得進去嗎?如果塞如果只有農業縣的一個縣市去塞那當然其他縣市又會覺得不公平那我就不曉得你們要怎麼執行下去所以我簡單做適當的提醒給各位做一個參考"},{"start":4765.286,"end":4789.301,"text":"主席是不是就劉委員所說的就是說如果分階段讓準備好人先行真的會站在中央的立場會有這個產生這樣的困難嗎是不是請行政部門出來說明一下好本席先詢問還有沒有委員有要針對45條發言的好如果暫時沒有那我們請行政單位來說明"},{"start":4795.193,"end":4822.167,"text":"謝謝召委我想我來綜合回答一下剛剛幾位委員的這個憂慮第一個我非常謝謝各位因為在兩三個月前國土計劃法其實被充分的污名化那現在終於我們爭取到有空間有時間來跟大家來討論我是覺得非常謝謝各位不管最後的修正條文會產生什麼樣的結果但是我要先跟各位報告一下就是說從國土計劃法開始實行到現在"},{"start":4823.027,"end":4841.422,"text":"第一個 全國的國土計劃法已經公告第二個 各縣市的國土計劃也已經公告所以所謂的大面積 不管是大面積的農地或是大面積的工業區土地在不管是4年前或是8年前曾經公告過那現在我們只不過是希望說"},{"start":4842.823,"end":4860.463,"text":"各縣市政府可以按照當時差不多是4年前的縣市的國土計劃的一個公告的內容把功能分區圖再送到內政部來審議這是一個審議的機制不是說來了我們就是打圈或打叉絕對是沒有這個意思"},{"start":4862.125,"end":4866.527,"text":"那同時在處理的程序當中我們有加入所謂的通盤檢討那一般來講我們所了解的通盤檢討大概是五年但是如果大家覺得說五年太長的時間雖然寫五年內但是很多人都把它講成是五年我們也可以認同說縮短到也許是三年內也沒有關係"},{"start":4882.176,"end":4896.732,"text":"也就是說這個機制它是可以跟著變動的在內政或是說在國土計畫的這個審議委員會裡面如果它要調整的話其實是只有微調的空間除非縣市政府它要修改它的"},{"start":4897.353,"end":4900.696,"text":"公能分區圖透過通盤計劃的檢討這個大概就是跟幾位委員所提到的部分跟大家先回應一下然後會進入就是大家所說的部分為什麼我們會提鄉規的部分就是說我們希望在有農業生產為主的比較偏鄉或是鄉鎮的地區可以納入鄉村級的都市計劃"},{"start":4921.152,"end":4926.036,"text":"也就是說我們不是只有農地拿來生產農業農地也有農民的生活圈也有農民所需要的包括學校、市場等等這些所以它如果變成是相規計劃的部分的話也可以容納進去我們的功能分區圖來一起來討論也就是說我們把處理的程序盡量把它透明化跟公開化同時要有一致性"},{"start":4945.289,"end":4951.475,"text":"這個一致性就是縣市地方政府跟這個我們的國土計劃委員會裡面能夠達到一定的功能那大家都有達到這樣的共識的時候我們才有可能把剛剛所說的因為區域計劃法會可能隨著未來如果有公告這個國土功能分區的時候可能就是要關門了那也就是說在這樣子的轉變的過程當中一定會有很多爭議"},{"start":4969.013,"end":4983.42,"text":"那現在目前爭議最大的就是來自於農業縣的幾個這個委員所關心的部分那大概有幾些問題呢這個大概是我們的農業部門可以跟大家來做一下回應那以上是程序呢我先跟大家做一個簡要的說明好嗎謝謝好"},{"start":4987.264,"end":5006.455,"text":"那如果針對45條這個如果沒有委員還要發表意見的話因為我們整個的包括延長的時間還有是不是要把一併拿掉沒有整體的共識所以我們就保留保留剩議員會協商"},{"start":5007.896,"end":5026.229,"text":"好,那最後我們就來到第32條之一,有關於農地發展權的這一個,它是禁負二讀的法案,是不是我們請提案委員,許宇甄委員來說明"},{"start":5035.029,"end":5040.461,"text":"謝謝主席還有謝謝我們的部長請先回座 謝謝有關這個"},{"start":5047.343,"end":5070.33,"text":"有關本席所提出的《國土計劃法》增訂第32條之一的條文草案主要是針對在《國土計劃法》是著重在化學功能分區但是整部法我們看到只有棍子沒有糖果因為農業是國家的發展之本那農地更是國土永續重要的一環那《國土計劃法》不能只做土地的管制也應該要有農業的補償"},{"start":5071.75,"end":5090.011,"text":"那損失補償以及土地配套措施的完整支持就讓整體的架構更加完備才能讓農業能夠持續的發展農民才更有意願能夠繼續投入耕作那這一次推動農業錢修法的主核心目標是為了保障農民的權益我們檢視國土計劃法"},{"start":5091.713,"end":5095.875,"text":"關於農業權並沒有相關的規範因此在國土計劃法暫緩實行如果實施通過後應該一併處理農業權的一個問題那農民對於國土計劃法的憂慮主要的針點在於受限制卻沒有補償會有增訂農業權使良好的農地獲得法定的補償才能減少農民對農地轉為非農使用的誘因農業才能永續發展"},{"start":5118.604,"end":5132.377,"text":"而土地權益的措施應包含農地發展權的移轉以及農業農地價值量化或計算的相關補貼方式最好將糧食安全等效益回歸給農民、農地和農業的發展才能達成政府維護農地農用的政策目標"},{"start":5137.521,"end":5152.907,"text":"農地發展權是影響全國農民的重要的一個政策議題那中央政府欲積極嚴密方案由於我國對於農業權、農地發展權一直都停留在概念的層面缺乏農地發展權相關的移轉制度的立法授權"},{"start":5153.647,"end":5176.184,"text":"那為了兼顧糧食安全期、土地公平爭議、農業權的修法完成之後我們將授權中央主管機關提出全國農地的發展權移轉制度政府可以嚴密適合我國農業用地以及建築用地的合理的調配的制度避免中央地方各自解讀、各自論述的一個情形"},{"start":5177.245,"end":5198.575,"text":"因此本席提出國土計劃法增訂第23條之一增列有關農業權補償的條文那希望增訂之後讓農民的權益獲得明確的保障那也可以提高農民的收益並提升人民從農的意願落實國家糧食安全的目標促使農業永續發展以達到區域發展的橫平性謝謝"},{"start":5204.62,"end":5206.884,"text":"我們接下來是不是請國土署還有農業部來說明先請國土署先請農業部"},{"start":5219.956,"end":5239.806,"text":"謝謝委員那事實上我們現行的區域計劃法當中屬於農業用地的這些農地在轉為國土計劃法全面實施之後它被劃入農業發展地區農役到農務的話它還是農地仍然可以按照"},{"start":5240.566,"end":5264.547,"text":"目前的農業的產制取消來使用它也叫做農地所以變成國土計劃法之後我們並沒有對於農役到農務有任何加強嚴格的管制的這樣的狀況因此並沒有所謂的實質損失所以既然沒有這個加研也沒有實質的損失的話事實上就沒有發生所謂合理的補償因為現在的"},{"start":5267.049,"end":5287.799,"text":"區域計劃法之下的這個農地你如果變成國土計劃法裡面的一套農務的話還是可以照本來的這個使用所受到的限制目前區域計劃法裡面有三項受到限制第一個就是寵物生命紀念館的設施這個不能設在農役裡面第二個就是這些砂石碎結"},{"start":5288.879,"end":5313.278,"text":"委員習選不能再容移第三個就是事業廢棄物設施不能再容移事實上現在的特定農業區也是一樣受到這樣的一個限制因此根本沒有說區域計劃法變成國土計劃法之後有實質的我們對於土地管制的加嚴所以基本上也不會有實質的損失所以在要去設什麼農業圈的這方面的補償其實在"},{"start":5317.932,"end":5341.286,"text":"理論上是講不通這第一點第二點就是農地發展權移轉制度其實我是不曉得這個定義是不是可以再把它更清楚因為農地本身它就沒有所謂這個發展權移轉因為除非它是建地我這農地就是做農用的話事實上都還是可以來做使用沒有所謂它的權利的移轉制度以上"},{"start":5345.851,"end":5372.905,"text":"等一下這個剛剛我們次長還在詢問這個什麼農地發展權的他講的是農地發展權沒有定義啊在第三項沒有這個現在就是說這個法案已經出出來了齁那都沒有溝通欸沒去了解嗎不是因為這個臨時提出對沒關係所以這個行政單位要再加強接著請國土署"},{"start":5374.689,"end":5402.756,"text":"感謝委員的指教那其實有關農業權的部分當然我們其實都非常認同農業應該要有合理的一個機制讓農民在生產在生活上有比較受到好的照顧但是其實今天如果放在國土計畫法裡面它涉及到的是全國的土地尤其是農地本身那我們其實在臺灣現行的一個法令制度下"},{"start":5403.536,"end":5429.139,"text":"在過去大法官的相關的解釋以及憲法的解釋裡面大家都是以依據現況那我新訂的法令有剝奪它比現況還要差的這樣一個環境的狀況下那自為所謂的剝奪它的這個這個剝奪或限制它的一個權益那但是其實我們在訂國土計畫的時候我們已經充分考慮了農民在生產生活行為上的必要所以"},{"start":5429.899,"end":5456.533,"text":"彼之過去的區域計畫法我們還增訂了比較大的一個彈性那也過去區域計畫法沒有所謂的鄉村的縣市政府並沒有主動的規劃權我們在這一次呢也透過鄉村第一整體規劃希望能夠讓縣市政府乃至於到鄉村公所他們都有權利來來爭取自己鄉村的這個規劃權就是希望讓他們在現行的狀況下能夠還有對未來的發展的期待"},{"start":5457.173,"end":5484.269,"text":"那農業發展權本身就是在沒有任何規劃狀況下直接賦予它一個預期的價值或預期的利益那這些呢其實在過去在台灣的執行不管我們是看英國、美國他們原本在實行的一個概念其實大概不脫於是類似發展權移轉的概念那發展權移轉在美國它所提到的它是屬於大面積的農地或需要保護的地區"},{"start":5485.29,"end":5499.485,"text":"在去進行的那過去他的這個交易面積其實非常大幣而且確實是為了農業生產那當時呢也認為這樣是一個很好的制度但是其實我們台灣第一個大家的農民的土地的持分的面積其實相對是非常小"},{"start":5500.606,"end":5522.352,"text":"不會像美國那樣可以拿出來交易的動作是幾百公畝甚至上千公畝以上的土地在交易那第二個呢在以台灣這樣土農地比較零星而且比較大家小面積的狀況下去執行的話它就會類似現在都市計畫區所執行的公共設施保留地的容積移轉的概念是一樣"},{"start":5523.192,"end":5547.529,"text":"那過去保留地的移轉概念在民國78年第一次開始提出來以後那其實在當時的文化部跟內政部都有積極的去研擬也有去國外參訪那去了解日本德國的相關制度但是從85年開始第一版的執行古蹟的容積移轉到後來88年去訂定公共設置保留地的容積移轉"},{"start":5548.57,"end":5575.242,"text":"大家在當時也預期有可能會造成土地的交易發展權的交易不正常也就是說對於收購者來講當然是希望價低者得而不是價高者得因為一個都市即便我們限縮到都市計畫區內一個都市計畫區內也有幾百公頃的公設地保留地可以去變成對建商來講對開發商來講我就要找最便宜的結果就會造成有需要錢的人他只好建價出售"},{"start":5576.124,"end":5600.295,"text":"那建價出售往往可能就是兩折、三折那好一點四、五折後來就衍生了收購集團用兩、三折去收購這些榮譽然後再五、六折的價錢再賣給需要的人那這些就會造成在公設保留地後來在執行不佳的狀態下還被監察院還有相關的團體攻擊這樣反而會造成公設保留地地主的權益受損"},{"start":5601.235,"end":5616.083,"text":"那所以到後來102年才又重新啟動全國的都市計畫公共設施的專案通版檢討就是希望徹底來檢討而不是放任讓他去做農機轉的概念那其實今天全國的農地高達74萬到81萬公頃"},{"start":5619.665,"end":5644.632,"text":"這對各縣市來講如果要到跨縣市來講價格、定價跟價格的差異會造成全國普遍性的差異是非常高的我想臺東、屏東、花蓮的農地就不可能跟臺北市、新北市、桃園市的農地相比那價格者低也是未來我想在開放這樣的交易制度一樣會面臨的問題那會不會也造成未來的農民"},{"start":5645.885,"end":5668.508,"text":"或是未來的開發者他就是反正全國土地那麼多我就是繼續收購低價的就好那對於農民來講一旦發展權買走了或是農地買走了他就沒有以後被規劃進來的權利因為發展權一旦定掉你是賣掉了以後你賣掉上面的附加價值以後你也沒有被變更的機會"},{"start":5669.468,"end":5679.591,"text":"那這些就是會造成而且這些整體規劃的地區以後如果在農地上要被做整體規劃這些地方就是零星缺口的位置"},{"start":5680.285,"end":5703.717,"text":"那這些企業都會不管是對於農民的實質的權益或是對整個未來要做整體開發的這個開發的縣市政務來講都會是一個雙向的損失所以我們在目前來講會針對這個部分覺得這是一個非常大的疑慮那因為國土計畫法本身也是一個作用法它不是一個基本法的概念那一旦定了就變成勢必要"},{"start":5704.858,"end":5720.24,"text":"依照這樣的一個做法,我們就要全國性的去調查,而且要邀請各縣市政府相關的去進行,可想而知過去大家的經驗都一而再,再而三會重複提我想這對國路計畫法在這一塊沒有徹底研究清楚之前"},{"start":5720.92,"end":5735.277,"text":"我們是建議不應該貿然的這樣一個提出這樣其實反而會造成未來在農地上又被賦予這樣的一個狀況下對於台灣現在的農地交易來講會產生更混亂的現象那以上是國土署的一個意見"},{"start":5737.042,"end":5738.223,"text":"行政單位有要表達意見,請代專門委員"},{"start":5759.733,"end":5785.094,"text":"主席各位委員大家好主席總處這邊針對那個徐宇甄委員所提到的這個第三項因為第三項委員這邊有提到說設立特別基金那當然前端剛剛那個農業部跟那個國土署署長這邊有說相關的有沒有損失需要劃設農地有沒有損失需要補償這個還需要再評估啦那我們這邊是提到說"},{"start":5785.894,"end":5812.242,"text":"那有關這個前端應該是由內政部你會同農業部再去就有沒有產生損失需以補償先去評估然後對財務的衝擊你也要先去涉算那前端他們涉算完了之後再來決定那因為現在的條我們就馬上提到說要設立特別基金那依照財政紀律法第八條規定設立基金必須具備國庫撥補以外新增氏族的財源"},{"start":5812.762,"end":5832.645,"text":"那因為現在的條文是沒有規劃裁員的這一個部分那如果就冒然的就是寫了設立特別基金這幾個字可能會影響這個違反財政紀律法的規定所以我們是建議說這個條文的第三項即設立特別基金這幾個字我們是建議刪除以上謝謝好謝謝那我們請徐宇甄委員然後林淑芬委員"},{"start":5842.812,"end":5867.807,"text":"謝謝主席針對剛剛農業部那個胡次長提到的說農一跟農五其實都一樣應該不會有什麼特別的損失那這樣的話是不是我們都可以全部都不要畫農一呢就是讓全部都從農二開始畫因為這樣的話就不會對這些農民他們感受到他們會遭受到這樣的一個損失那尤其是剛剛提到的為什麼講說這個農業權的部分的話就是因為事實上我們現在就是限制他要農地農用"},{"start":5869.048,"end":5879.712,"text":"所以說他已經以後沒有辦法開發所以相對的他土地價格可能有一個預期的心理可能會下降同樣的包括農二的部分他可能因為化為農二之後他以後還有變更的機會所以他土地價格會上升這一來一往之間其實對於化為農醫、農地、農用的這些農民們他就"},{"start":5886.075,"end":5891.817,"text":"併案審查委員吳琪銘等16人：一、本院內政委員吳琪銘等16人：一、本院內政委員吳琪銘等16人：一、本院內政委員吳琪銘等16人：一、本院內政委員吳琪銘等16人：一、本院內政委員吳琪銘等16人：一、本院內政委員吳琪銘等16人：一、本院內政委員吳琪銘等16人：一、本院內政委員吳琪銘等16人：一、本院內政委員吳琪銘等16人：一、本院內政委員吳琪銘等16人：一、本院"},{"start":5912.205,"end":5928.233,"text":"那當時是因為農業部一直都不提出來所以我們今天提出一個這個農業權的概念就是說希望針對這樣的損失你們可以用什麼樣的方式那我在法律裡也沒有定出說應該一定要怎麼做而是授權主管機關應該來去針對相關的配套輸出做出一個研擬出一個方案"},{"start":5929.654,"end":5943.989,"text":"那其實這個部分我覺得是農業部不該就一開始就講說這個根本不合理或怎麼樣的我覺得應該是要先研究一下瞭解農民真正的需求造成什麼樣的損失才來提出相關的一個配套或大家可以來怎麼研討我覺得這才是重點以上"},{"start":5946.118,"end":5967.481,"text":"好 那請次長回應好 謝謝 謝謝徐委員徐委員所講的非常正確事實上我們農一到農五裡面的農地都是做農用並沒有說農一的這個地 農二或者是農五那個就不做農用其實跟這個沒有關係我們最主要把它劃設農一到農五的原因就是農一的話是25公頃"},{"start":5968.982,"end":5995.336,"text":"集中25公頃 其中有80%的農地是作為農用那如果不符合集中25公頃80%以上做農用的話 那個叫做農用 但是要平地地區那接下來的農山是山坡地 農事是鄉村區 農務是都市計劃區市長這個部分我想大家都知道 資料都有所以我剛剛只是針對說農醫的部分 那這個部分的話因為他以後農醫可以再做變更嗎 可以不做農用嗎"},{"start":5996.316,"end":6018.366,"text":"剛才我所講的就是現在的特定榮譽區裡面的限制榮譽以後也會受到加強性是一樣的但是我們會劃榮譽到榮武是在我們堆疊式的補貼的時候我們會給榮譽更好的補貼是用這種方式來補貼他的就是你問榮譽的補貼是什麼好像大家都還沒有配套錯是不是有啦 我們已經都已經定了啦在"},{"start":6019.366,"end":6024.615,"text":"在榮譽的部分跟榮山它是山坡地山坡地的話我們有山坡地的這個做法那請問補貼是多少補貼的話"},{"start":6027.946,"end":6055.957,"text":"補貼的話其實在融一如果說整體從融一到融五共通的來講的話融一的話可以到14萬5千多這個是一年的話大概有14萬5千多的這個相關您說的是一公頃對 我們的相關政策給他的補貼啦包括稅的優稅制的優惠還有包括我們給他的這個轉座、氣座或者是我們給他的這個對地綠色給互等等這些加起來啊"},{"start":6056.673,"end":6082.947,"text":"這加起來,農一它可以得到的利益是比農二、農三還要高但是它以後就不能作為其他的移轉了是嗎?可以移轉五年內五年內只是檢討嗎?五年一次的檢討嗎?跟委員報告,農一、農二、農三、農四在相關的農業用地只要有提出計畫需求那麼我們就根據計畫需求做審定之後它就可以改變所以我們的署長剛剛有提到的,就是說"},{"start":6083.767,"end":6100.096,"text":"所有的計畫所有的農地它在規劃的時候為什麼我們不同意就是說發射什麼農地發展權是因為你一旦發射農地發展權它被賣掉之後它在未來任何的計畫擬定的過程裡面這塊地都不能被用因為它的權利已經賣出了"},{"start":6101.644,"end":6126.641,"text":"所以他不得變更所以這才是真正判農地死刑你如果用TDR你就是把農地判死刑而在美國的案例裡面他們之所以要用這樣是因為有一群人他就是堅持他要做農所以在美國所謂的農業權指的是我想從事農業的權利你不得干預我而不是說我們要來補助或補貼這是不一樣的概念"},{"start":6127.601,"end":6138.884,"text":"市長我想這個部分當然有不同國家有不同的一個概念的一個陳述但是這個部分我想剛剛我也表達得很清楚了就是說針對這部分我們主要是針對農醫的農地農誘雖然你們剛剛一直講說5年內5年可以提出一次但就不是像現在這樣子"},{"start":6146.806,"end":6151.688,"text":"所以為什麼剛剛講說有一些會可能開始申請可能要做農地一轉就是因為我看不到我現在作為農地農用我將來的未來我只會感受到說我就是會有很大的一個損失所以說為什麼希望說農業部這邊能夠有一個相關的配套措施讓這些農民尤其化作為農醫的農民他們能夠感受到說政府對他們的特別犧牲能夠有特別的補償"},{"start":6170.578,"end":6194.208,"text":"那主要的目的是這樣那相關的配套措施我是覺得到現在其實剛剛講的這個配套措施我們到現在也還沒看到那所謂的一公頃14.5萬到底是什麼樣的詳細的狀況好像也說不清楚而且就是每一個每一公頃找我提出申請就可以14.5萬我相信也不是還有很多的相關的一個問題所以這個部分的話主要是這樣那要不然的話其實對於國土計畫法來說每個縣市我相信大家都會願意來去針對國土計畫法來的"},{"start":6199.87,"end":6208.276,"text":"上路但是目前的問題就是這些問題都還沒有配套出這還沒有解決之前是不是要衝倉促的上路我覺得這是現在真正問題的癥結所在好那謝謝委員的指教我想還是跟委員們做一個說明在目前區計法的狀態之下事實上農地的變更的程序跟權力其實反而比國土計畫更複雜因為你個案變更是要有相關的"},{"start":6226.269,"end":6252.882,"text":"議務或者說有些計劃有些比鄰等等的狀況你如果沒有這些狀況其實你農地就是農地你不能夠做任何的變更使用但是在國土計劃法的狀況之下每個縣市每一段時間就可以進行檢討而且是全部的檢討就跟我們都市計劃通盤檢討是一樣它有發展的需求它有規劃的需求它有未來進一步不同的發展的想像的時候它就可以被拿出來討論拿出來使用而且就現階段來講我們在"},{"start":6255.965,"end":6268.159,"text":"從上一任的農業部陳其仲部長到現在陳進基部長他們都同意農地上產製除銷都可以設立撲破了過去在區計裡面的一些規範區計裡面規範裡面農地還不見得能夠做產製除銷我們現在為了達到綠色經濟的狀態"},{"start":6274.867,"end":6291.668,"text":"許多的小型的農產加工也可以在國土計畫範圍之內我們透過計畫允許在在地的產製儲銷都發展所以農業其實沒有什麼特別犧牲它就是一個產業它是一個發展那至於那個委員提到的相關的農業的補貼我是不是請我們胡次長在那邊"},{"start":6294.675,"end":6321.146,"text":"好 請胡次長是 謝謝因為我們現在龍一到龍五事實上各縣市政府所劃出來總共大概有79萬公頃龍一跟龍二有五十幾萬公頃其實這個是符合目前中央政府對於整個農地的需求那龍一到龍五的話我們現在就是按照剛才跟委員報告過的我們龍一因為它所做的有受到三個限制就是剛剛所講的這個寵物的生命紀念館"},{"start":6321.966,"end":6332.361,"text":"還有這個什麼沙石業還有這個還有另外啊還有這個事業廢棄屋等等這三種限制那榮譽它又是最弱的榮地所以我們以後再"},{"start":6334.154,"end":6355.585,"text":"這分成五類來對於平地這個農藝的補助會比較高因此以後一定會有農民到縣市政府要求說把我劃到農藝因為事實上他們認為可能誤解啦誤解說農藝可能限制比較多那其實剛才所講的這些跟農業無關的這些廢棄物或砂石廠這根本跟一般農民是無關的"},{"start":6355.785,"end":6370.849,"text":"次長這一步法立法到現在已經8年了那給你們8年的時間去跟農民溝通你說他們還有誤解的話那問題在哪裡絕大部分都沒有了因為一開始的時候就為什麼不去溝通呢絕大部分沒有因為有少部分說什麼會不是再來剛剛不是剛剛您提的不是剛剛次長您提到這個問題喔"},{"start":6376.59,"end":6383.579,"text":"不是啊 因為很多人都講說 農醫被放進去就變成農奴嘛所以我們去解釋解釋將近160餐候其實市長我相信喔 如果像你剛剛講的那樣的話對農民有這麼多的好處你覺得農民是頭殼壞掉 為什麼他們要反對"},{"start":6391.89,"end":6392.251,"text":"五年內應該是五年內五年內"},{"start":6409.369,"end":6423.814,"text":"對五年內嘛那你就變說時間上然後對可不可以變更都不知道那我就想嘛如果是這樣的話那剛照次長的講法的話那為了說在如果是農民為了安全起見我就我拜託你幫我化成農二我至少將來還有一個這個這個變更的一個機會但農醫的話"},{"start":6428.135,"end":6443.127,"text":"我剛不是講說判死刑而是覺得農醫既然只能作為農地農業剛我也講了你對於農地的這個價值有可能會被低估再來就是說我們的農二比如說我現在化為農二我可能未來我的這個土地可能可以移轉"},{"start":6443.787,"end":6459.296,"text":"所以我的農地價值會以變高那這樣一來一往之間當然我們的農民都會感受到我辛苦耕種那你現在好你說一公頃14.5萬我現在還不如把這些農地都租給太陽能光電業者一年就有40萬我什麼都不必做我就有40萬"},{"start":6460.316,"end":6486.557,"text":"所以是這樣的一個概念認為說如果真的希望農民來負擔糧食安全那是不是該給他們一些相關的補償讓他們覺得我們作為農民來為了國家負擔糧食安全那是針對國家的一個幫助那所以我們願意我覺得應該是這樣子而不是說好對他們來說都沒有損失那你想農民為什麼要反對為什麼這麼多朝野的立委公同提出要展言其實就是有很大的問題"},{"start":6487.981,"end":6498.352,"text":"好 次長次長 再加強溝通 再加強這個16人選 也有聽到你說農民還有很多的誤解所以沒關係 我們現在聽委員講你如果不會解釋 回去想一想再來解釋解釋了半天人家還聽不懂 這就是你們的問題好 換我講一下"},{"start":6509.463,"end":6512.624,"text":"現在委員所爭執是說 農地要維持農用犧牲他們可是現在沒有國土計劃法 農地還是要農用啊現在區域計劃法的概念 農地可以不農用嗎 不行的欸"},{"start":6525.168,"end":6530.529,"text":"然後農地沒有農用那他可以個案變更次長剛才已經講了,內政部次長剛才講農地的個案變更他綁很多程序要涉及到計劃所以他要涉及到變更權利他是很複雜的所以現在聯邦會農地個案去變更那是有資料的、有特款的、有領略的"},{"start":6545.053,"end":6553.685,"text":"不是一般農民都可以個案變更區域計劃法沒有國土計劃法現在的個案變更都是靠特權有能力的人大財團大產業大特權的人才有能力去個案變更而現在我們"},{"start":6561.616,"end":6569.341,"text":"在地方都趕快陳情,因為我們的鄉親我的選民,三重如舟無骨的很多都來自於雲林他問我一件事,他說委員我給你請講,我的農地在分林喔,他們都說現在去農地賣菜賣賣啊,搞什麼"},{"start":6576.001,"end":6580.464,"text":"農地不能移轉了他說縣政府就是這樣子說我說國土計劃法以後農地一樣可以買賣一樣可以移轉他一樣可以變更一樣可以蓋農舍通通都沒有改變只是他現在不能夠個案變更沒有方便那些特權的大財團的有能力的人個案變更"},{"start":6602.037,"end":6608.84,"text":"但是對一個沒有能力的小農民來講如果未來地方發展需求他計劃變更我們不用靠地權也不用跟外債團現在如果需要整片他變更是整片的土地大家跟進大家都可以認為需要整片大家一起變更而不是有能力的人自己變更自己好看自己唯一的差別就是不能夠個案變更嘛"},{"start":6628.07,"end":6634.773,"text":"所以現在為什麼要放這個假消息假風聲說農地不能賣啊國土計劃法過去以後農地不能賣不能夠移轉這一個假消息是因為即將要有詐騙集團來了我們講農業權什麼是農業權我們有經驗我有經驗我新北市新北市在巴黎台北港這個專區特區的土地重劃裡面"},{"start":6655.2,"end":6665.15,"text":"新北市政府我們因為抗爭那個阿嬤說我堅持我的土地我不要變成專區我不要變成工業區我不要變成住宅區我就是要務農所以大家抗爭很久終於把那個阿嬤的農地保留下來她要務農這個才叫做農業權"},{"start":6678.363,"end":6684.347,"text":"而你們錢客要的不是農業權,是農地移轉權啦我跟你講,農民搞不清楚不能夠買賣了,我今天買給錢客錢客廉價收購大量的土地然後打折,大家賺這個機會趕快把農民賠命的土地趕快買起來"},{"start":6698.815,"end":6699.878,"text":"然後呢假讓大家不知道資訊不對等然後專業能力不對等都收起了他再去大炒地皮大賺特賺"},{"start":6709.882,"end":6722.291,"text":"這個是有陰謀的 這個裡面不要假借農民也不要假借農業權三個字這個是草土地的農地移轉權的制度而今天藉由框騙、藉由資訊不對等詐騙農民而今天我要再跟大家講國土計劃法施行以後可以蓋農舍、可以買賣、可以移轉、可以變耕"},{"start":6733.098,"end":6742.686,"text":"不用再讓大財團有能力的人只有他們有個案變更的能力啦所以現在在那裡空中為大便然後在那裡假裝包裝了一個農業權的概念什麼農地判死刑那根本不是那樣子這是詐騙地方政府都講不實剛才還一直在講不能移轉、不能買賣胡說八道、睜眼說瞎話真的是詐騙農民"},{"start":6761.084,"end":6777.011,"text":"好 那是不是我們第32條之一我們也保留好 那審查到這邊我們協商的結論國土計劃法修正草案第7條、第8條、第23條增訂的第32條之一、第35條、第40條、第45條均保留送院長協商好 我們今天開會到這邊現在散會 謝謝"},{"start":6790.939,"end":6795.245,"text":"併農民在詐騙土地的要收到土地要詐騙土地的"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}