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那我們現在開始開會各位委員大家好我們今天是要協商國土計劃法那國土計劃法呢它攸關人民的權益社會高度關切那我們"},{"start":2106.192,"end":2132.75,"text":"在10月24號就是今年10月24號我們開了國土計劃法修正草案的公聽會那在11月7號我們也進行國土計劃法修正草案的第一次初步審查會議在11月21號我們進行了國土計劃法修正草案的審查那也審查完畢出了委員會所以本次協商呢向各位報告我們第7條"},{"start":2135.191,"end":2138.352,"text":"在國土計劃法的第7條、第23條、第35條還有第40條都有在11月21號內政委員會審議決議修正通過所以這4條原則上看看"},{"start":2152.545,"end":2177.024,"text":"這個各黨團是不是可以這個認同依委員會的決議作為本次協商會議的決議這個等一下大家都可以表達意見那第八條的部分國土署有建議的文字請委員們可以參考第45條就是延期條款那委員會保留等一下也請各黨團以及各位委員們發表高見"},{"start":2179.085,"end":2196.275,"text":"看看今天是不是可以協商能夠達到共識那另外有第32條之一關於農地發展權的部分那是淨富二讀的法案這一次也併案協商等一下我們會請提案人徐宇甄委員說明也會請主管機關來回應"},{"start":2199.597,"end":2225.563,"text":"那以上是今天大致協商需要處理的條文的一個概括那依例呢本席先介紹我們在場的委員以及行政機關列席的代表那我們首先我們介紹鄭天才委員麥玉珍委員許宇珍委員蔡易餘"},{"start":2227.15,"end":2253.558,"text":"委員您在民進黨的那個你們黨團的職稱是書記長蔡易餘書記長還有林黛樺委員接下來我們介紹我們今天列席的出席的行政官員我們內政部部長劉部長釋芳內政部政務次長董次長建宏"},{"start":2256.755,"end":2280.181,"text":"農業部政務次長胡忠一次長我們還有內政部國土署署長吳興修署長以及經濟部綜合規劃司副司長許嘉琳副司長人民會副主委杜章梅莊副主委"},{"start":2286.165,"end":2288.168,"text":"財政部有兩位專門委員張潔祐專委跟何慧麗專委法務部的廖江縣參事"},{"start":2300.001,"end":2324.036,"text":"還有國家科學及技術委員會的產學及園區業務處副處長陳昭榮副處長行政院主計總處的戴群芳專門委員戴專委有到嗎有在後面好謝謝好那我們現在呢就那等一下好了等一下"},{"start":2328.922,"end":2346.477,"text":"那我們是不是先讓我們各位委員來發表這個意見還是剛剛本席所說的這樣好了我們在委員會已經照案通過審查結果的第7條、第35條、第40條"},{"start":2351.761,"end":2354.562,"text":"還有23條對第7條第23條第35條第40條是不是這4條就照委員會好那請鄭天才委員有關這個第23條大家看23條23條在這個一二三第三項"},{"start":2380.834,"end":2390.179,"text":"前項就是這個修正的條文前項規則中涉及原住民族土地及部落之使用管制者這一計劃"},{"start":2392.762,"end":2416.221,"text":"因為現行的條文是原住民族土地及海域本席當初提出的修正條文是原住民族土地海域後面是加了部落及部落周邊一定範圍之土地使用管制者當時上次協商的時候"},{"start":2418.082,"end":2443.452,"text":"這個大家是針對部落桌邊一定範圍這個認定比較有大家有顧慮了因為這個部落桌邊一定範圍當然這個條文也不是新開創的是現行的原住民族基本法21條裡面的文字但是大家還是對這個部落桌邊一定範圍所以後來把這個部落桌邊一定範圍這個刪除掉了"},{"start":2444.272,"end":2472.646,"text":"但是現行條文原來有的那個海域是不是我建議還是應該留著上次是只是把那個部落周邊一定範圍這個因為比較難大家比較有疑慮所以刪除是不是把海域還是留著所以是原住民族土地海域及部落是使用管制者以上好那這個行政單位是不是有回應"},{"start":2476.415,"end":2477.862,"text":"好 請袁明慧副主委"},{"start":2479.811,"end":2508.966,"text":"跟委員說明,那個一開始是有海域的這樣的文字後來上一次協調的時候我們有跟委員說明委員就希望說要加部落一定範圍的部分那當時海域的部分是沒有特別說一定要放在裡面當然原條文是有那當然放在裡面對整個使用管制上是有幫助但是實務上海域要去做一些管制的話可能涉及的層面更廣那我們的意見是說如果要保留它的話可能我們還要再"},{"start":2509.864,"end":2516.737,"text":"評估看有沒有辦法定得出海域的部分因為這個傳統海域的發射事實上目前還沒有一個比較具體的範圍"},{"start":2519.07,"end":2545.441,"text":"我的建議啦就是說海域還是留著但是現行你們已經跟內政部研擬的那個使用管制規則現在目前還用不到海域就先不定在那個使用管制規則裡面因為這是現行的條文啦現行的條文只是把那個部落加上去就好了那所以為那個35條第一項的部分要一併調整是不是"},{"start":2552.483,"end":2553.463,"text":"所以是不是第23條就照鄭天才委員剛剛所說的把海域加上去"},{"start":2569.998,"end":2597.045,"text":"主席這個23條齁那因為我看到政委的版本他除了土地海域還有叫做部落以及部落周邊一定範圍那這個部落周邊一定範圍他就是只有部落好那是不是這部分我想是不是還是要讓那個主管機關要表示一下意見"},{"start":2598.866,"end":2618.566,"text":"請大家可以看一下螢幕我們把這個溝通正在討論溝通的結果我們就秀出來所以政委員提出就是說他除了土地還要加海域現行條文留著是不是可以"},{"start":2619.304,"end":2644.34,"text":"當然以一般來講我們的法律體力是你現在有的話圖管就一定要有但現在的狀況是在圖管根本現在不會有所以我們也是擔心這樣的體力出來以後會變成說到時候又要被又要被再加訂啦這樣我覺得是不是確定可以的話再一起處理就好了因為變成體力上就對不起來我知道"},{"start":2656.618,"end":2678.792,"text":"那這個部分要不要待會我們可以先往下這個你們溝通一下因為其實現在如果沒有海域的話其實現在都還行得通啦我是說到時候有具體的時候再一起處理看委員覺得怎麼樣因為反而相對你有的話計畫書或什麼要有的話其實都還來得及加啦"},{"start":2681.55,"end":2693.795,"text":"好 政委員我們因為現行條文有我們把它刪除這個我們只是說希望能夠更好的話就是加那個部落因為部落確實是需要的來 朱祁英"},{"start":2699.926,"end":2727.825,"text":"主席我想這部分基本上就是政委員他說要部落那如果主管機關也認為這部分可以這我們是沒什麼意見那就海域的部分有涉及到他的管制的對象那剛剛主管機關好像也有一些認為疑慮的地方那我想這部分是不是我們可以先保留那未來在院長的朝野協商的時候我們再來進一步的溝通"},{"start":2728.806,"end":2730.028,"text":"我只是說齁我只是說因為"},{"start":2740.034,"end":2760.241,"text":"你們內政部跟園民會已經在溝通學了很多次的使用管制規則你們也是一線型的條文定的啊海域還是在那邊啊所以不要太堅持我們只是把部落放進去主席可不可以讓園民會講個話好不好園民會你怎麼看"},{"start":2765.939,"end":2789.517,"text":"我剛好表達過說原本的那個條文是有海域啦那上一次委員修說是海域是拿掉的啦那我說上一次上一次協調的時候是拿掉的那現在這個海域因為它原本的條文是有那我們事實上跟內政部也在協調這個相關的執法的部分你自己認不認為應該把海域跟部落放進去我們可能認為說那個海域跟部落放進去是OK的啦"},{"start":2790.27,"end":2813.046,"text":"你認為在現況的我們這個過渡機關去納入的話有沒有便於而且更明確讓你去執行你在部落跟海域的一個輔導也好或者是一個管理也好你自己本身身為園民會的主管機關你自己要表達你現況的管理面、輔導面上"},{"start":2815.147,"end":2835.174,"text":"併案審查委員吳琪銘等16人：一、本院內政委員吳琪銘等16人、委員陳超明等19人、委員陳超明等19人、委員吳琪銘等16人、委員陳超明等19人、委員陳超明等19人、委員陳超明等19人、委員陳超明等19人、委員陳超明等19人、委員陳超明等19人、委員陳超明等19人、委員陳超明等19人、委員陳超明等19人、委員陳超明等19人、委員陳超明等19人、委員陳超明等19人、委員陳超明等19人、委員陳超明等19人、委員陳超明等19人、委員陳超明等19人、委員陳超明等19人、委員陳"},{"start":2837.895,"end":2862.051,"text":"海域 什麼叫做海域它的範圍 它要去定義它包括部落 這個我們常常一直講有沒有需要在你的國土計劃法當中相關的執法當中 再明確去定義所以你本身是主管機關那你自己就要表達那至於那個內容定義的部分你可以讓國土署來參考你所謂的定義好不好 你再明確講一下"},{"start":2864.337,"end":2883.812,"text":"針對海域的部分我們之前在協調的時候我們的使用管制規則裡面事實上當時有寫了一條的有關於海域的它也是延續那個延期法的那個精神就是這個非營利使用的這個採集它是免申請類似這樣的條款事實上在管制規則我們目前協調的部分是有"},{"start":2884.781,"end":2903.715,"text":"是有這個部分所以我們認為是說如果以當時我們協調那樣的版本其實海域在這個原的法院裡面放海域其實我們是認同說是可以的那部落呢部落本來就在裡面了本來就有了那周邊拿掉你覺得也沒也應該要拿掉"},{"start":2904.733,"end":2923.349,"text":"一定範圍那個是我們跟委員說希望拿掉因為那個戒指不好是不是這樣進行主席這個原民會畢竟有我們原民的主在如果主管機關都認同那我就覺得放入只是說裡面的內容是國土署他覺得哪裡是不宜的"},{"start":2923.969,"end":2938.854,"text":"裏面的內容他認為這個海域的部分他在議題裡不同他剛才講了一個什麼之前的法令沒有什麼的法裡面是沒有規範的那就是加進去而已而且那個是行政作為他們自己可以處理的"},{"start":2941.522,"end":2969.567,"text":"所以林委員是認同政經財委員加海運對因為對今天是最主要是主管機關我今天是聽主管機關他本身是原住民委員會那我覺得現在主管機關都說應該要有那我覺得民意跟主管機關是認同那我覺得是不是應該要放入那國土計劃法的上邊的文字是可以去甄列的啊國土署是可以去甄列的啊"},{"start":2972.323,"end":2972.766,"text":"好,請留不著"},{"start":2974.28,"end":3001.124,"text":"做這個總結的回應因為我看這個第23條的第一段他是在處理有關禁止跟限制使用那剛剛我問一下原民會他們會認為說如果在海域裡面的話大概是只有採集比如說可能或者是其他的捕撈類似這樣子但是我們講海域的部分的話在內政部跟原民會的主管之外"},{"start":3001.744,"end":3026.94,"text":"其實還會有國防部的海軍或者是海洋委員會他們的海巡需要在處理的這個區域也就是說有海的部分跟有陸的部分或是島礁的這部分都是要做一個比較嚴格的定義那目前為止因為今天來出席的就是我們內政部跟那個園民會所以我們會認為說是不是把它放到保留的部分"},{"start":3027.56,"end":3055.959,"text":"因為我的意思就是說如果你把它放進去變成太多的限制或是太多的禁止都不是好事那所以我是覺得說看政委員尤其是提案的委員可不可以給一點時間那剛剛我們蔡易餘書記長特別提到給我們一點時間我們再來思考一下我們都知道就是這個有一些是屬於海洋性的這個原民部落有需求那怎麼個需求放到原民圖館的部分後我們一定會照這樣的方向來處理但是現在把它放進去的話有點是"},{"start":3058.02,"end":3086.838,"text":"牽涉到其他部會不是新的放是原來就有了我不是是原來就有了我知道但是在這一條裡面呢它並不是放寬喔你要注意看一下所以我是覺得說這個要多加思考啦因為這一條條文原來的就有含義現行條文現行條文就有那如果這個行政單位跟我們提案委員的意見沒有辦法還沒有辦法取得公示是不是對那我們第23條我們就保留好不好"},{"start":3088.493,"end":3115.488,"text":"那所以我們第23條原本要修正喔那現在就是保留那我們想確定第7條、第35條、第40條是不是照之前內政委員會審查的結果大家有沒有意見好 請邱委書記長就是說因為這些條文基本上因為國土法我們委員會有審查但是我想有一些條文我們是不是都還是可以在"},{"start":3116.587,"end":3126.891,"text":"吳琪銘等16人、委員陳超明等21人、委員吳琪琪等21人、委員陳超明等21人、委員吳琪琪等21人、委員吳琪琪等21人、委員吳琪琪等21人、委員吳琪琪等21人、委員吳琪琪等21人、委員吳琪琪等21人、委員吳琪琪等21人、委員吳琪琪等21人、委員吳琪琪等21人、委員吳琪琪等21人、委員吳琪琪等21人、委員吳琪琪等21人、委員吳琪琪等21人、委員吳琪琪等21人、委員吳琪琪等21人、委員吳"},{"start":3146.684,"end":3153.509,"text":"第八條國土署有建議的文字請委員們參考看大家有沒有什麼意見那請國土署說明建議文字"},{"start":3172.484,"end":3198.758,"text":"建議文字就是在這個原條文的第三大項裡面直轄市縣市政府主管機關擬定直轄市縣市國路計劃時的辦理鄉村地區整體規劃並是實際需要研擬鄉村地區計劃納入直轄市縣市國路計劃並得以另以覆測方式定之那這個就是因為之前"},{"start":3200.739,"end":3226.234,"text":"這個鄉村第一整理規劃原來的作業方式是你訂了以後那再納到通盤檢討裡面去那當然因為地方政府有一些有希望有一個比較明確而且快速的一個執行那所以我們在這裡呢也認同在地方政府他的確有做鄉村第一整理規劃並且有明訂他的一個執行方式那所以我們才建議就那就在第八條裡面"},{"start":3227.634,"end":3253.866,"text":"強化這條條文的法令執行的效力直接放進去的話而且得以覆測的方式來訂製就是讓他很明確這一本規劃報告如果經過審查確實是有可以明確執行的方式的話他可以另以覆測方式訂製他不用再通盤檢討主意去載明是這樣方式"},{"start":3256.213,"end":3279.079,"text":"好 謝謝吳署長的說明 請問在座的委員對第八條有沒有什麼意見 請徐玉珍委員我認同那個國土署的 對 對 請徐玉珍委員好 謝謝主席 針對第八條的部分 我想是不是這個部分也跟其他條文一樣 就是也是保留送協商 謝謝"},{"start":3281.394,"end":3309.217,"text":"那請林代化委員我認同國土署他這個讓地方政府當中有明確的針對尤其鄉村地區的計劃如果有需要的話他也納入這個直轄縣市國土這個是對於有鄉村的一個縣市來講會尊重地方政府的給地方政府有明確的一個依據我個人是很支持的"},{"start":3311.437,"end":3322.111,"text":"謝謝林黛嬅委員還有沒有其他委員要表達意見如果沒有的話那我們還是保留那我們第八條我們也保留"},{"start":3324.702,"end":3344.708,"text":"好那請行政單位請是次長是董事長要跟委員們報告那第八條我們還是希望說能夠那個照審查通過因為其實各縣市政府我們都有補助相關的相規那大家也都進行進行到一段一定程度包括雲林縣包括嘉義縣包括"},{"start":3345.368,"end":3366.028,"text":"高雄市政府、新北市、桃園市我們都有補助所以我們是希望說這些補助包括澎湖我們都希望說透過這個法令我們就入法那這些已經在進行的案子我們就可以很快的放入以覆測的方式放入我們國土計畫裡面這樣就可以保障大家地方上的權益所以這一點還是懇請委員給我們支持謝謝"},{"start":3369.964,"end":3382.907,"text":"我想這個部分我覺得還是我們保留送協商大家可以再充分的討論好那我們第8條還是我們也保留第8條也保留那接下來我們討論第45條那請國土署說明45條就是有關是否要這個延期的"},{"start":3400.046,"end":3427.927,"text":"好那45條因為目前其實我們在到目前截止已經有16個縣市政府都有送來那其實到目前我們已經完成了9個這個國土計畫的審查那當然依照在行政單位來講我們在這幾年都依據法令規定來持續來進行所以我們希望還是能夠讓努力讓我們來能夠如期來完成這樣的一個國土計畫所以這一點部分在行政單位"},{"start":3428.787,"end":3453.908,"text":"當然還是覺得我們希望是如期請董事長我們行政單位說完我們再請委員們我也補充說明一下除了已經繳交的16個縣市以外我們這幾天我們也積極跟幾個地方縣市首長我們都有直接通電話包括我也跟雲林縣張縣長南投縣徐縣長然後新北市的劉副市長"},{"start":3455.549,"end":3474.519,"text":"還有台中市的黃副市長我們都有直接通電話還有彰化縣的王縣長他們都直接承諾我他們會在年底就是這沒幾天他們會在年底之前繳交國土計畫所以大概目前可能我們還是積極努力所以希望說我們儘量就是說能夠如期讓我們能夠"},{"start":3476.621,"end":3502.802,"text":"將這個對於關於整個國家重大的國土空間的計畫能夠把它完成那當然我們也同意就是說一旦送進來之後我們經過審查之後事實上就可以馬上啟動那個通盤檢討那透過啟動通盤檢討那將大家很多疑義的部分就在進行那個進一步的修正那事實上雲林縣張縣長也告訴我他送進來的草案他就是把他們已經修訂好的那個包括農一農二的空間的轉換"},{"start":3503.782,"end":3512.005,"text":"這個都送進來我們也都承諾我們會依照地方的特色我們來做經景的審查那希望能夠爭取委員們的支持謝謝好那請林淑芬委員"},{"start":3519.468,"end":3545.793,"text":"主席我是要談說那個高金素美委員有一個修正動議而這個修正動議就是說其實在這個有報佈審議完成的已經有14個縣市了那其他沒有承諾要報佈已經16個了然後完成審議了所以事實上他們可以先行這個施行畢竟2015年就已經完成立法2015年到現在已經將近10年了快10年了"},{"start":3547.873,"end":3563.432,"text":"所以在這種狀況裡面是不是能夠讓這個報佈而且審議完成的人先行那只要修正一個文字就是說一併公告的這個一併拿掉以後呢大家就可以分階段先走的人然後準備好的人先行這樣子高金樹北委員的修正動議"},{"start":3569.594,"end":3589.331,"text":"其他還有沒有委員請許宇甄委員謝謝主席其實有關這個國土計劃法是不是要展延的部分其實主要的癥結點還是在於就是說其實糧食安全應該是要全國一起來負擔不應該由農業縣或是農民就是來負擔所有的權責所以現在我想癥結點這些農業縣的癥結點就在於說"},{"start":3592.294,"end":3614.611,"text":"針對農民的損失但目前政府並沒有提出相關的配套措施比如說該針對他們的特別犧牲該給予怎麼樣的補償那其實我想這個國土計劃法已經其實立法也超過8年了那有關機關也還沒有辦法提出良好的對策跟補償的方案那既然政府要限制農地的使用方式那就應該要給農民的補償我覺得這樣對辛苦耕種的農民才有保障"},{"start":3618.895,"end":3632.327,"text":"因為為了保障農民的權益我們還是希望等到有關機關能夠提出相關的修法保障農民的權益所以我們還是希望能夠展延至於展延的年限的話我覺得這個都可以討論至於剛剛董事長有特別提到我們幾個農業縣市的縣市長都有說年底之前12月30日前會提出其實他們的想法是說"},{"start":3642.637,"end":3666.309,"text":"希望在如期的提出是希望說在這段時間還是要有提出對於我們農業的這個農民的損失要提出賠償或對策的方案而不是說只是說我提出已經對這個這部法沒有意見他只是說希望能夠不要變成說全國好像只有誰沒有提出那還是希望說希望這個部分應該還是要提出相關的配套措施以上好那請問還有沒有好請蔡書記講"},{"start":3672.093,"end":3698.175,"text":"好 謝謝主席那主席我們看到這個45條幾乎很多版本那版本中有希望再展延那也有其他的不同那我自己有一個版本那我的版本主要還是針對因為我們未來我們知道農業縣在面對國土計畫如果正式上路之後對於農業縣他們土地的一個利用"},{"start":3698.916,"end":3701.157,"text":"每一個縣市他們承擔的說他們國土保育區或農業發展區的一個土地的一個比例"},{"start":3724.322,"end":3745.188,"text":"讓這個縣市因為他們負責更多的糧食安全或者是負責更多的一個水源的供給那他們應該要拿到更多的統籌分配那很可惜事實上我在財政委員會我的財化法都沒有被討論那現在三讀後也沒有把"},{"start":3747.328,"end":3754.995,"text":"兩市安全和水源地的標準列在這個統籌分配的這個評分的一個配比的一個配比所以變成說我這個我自己這個提案在於"},{"start":3764.123,"end":3784.172,"text":"跟財化法的聯動看起來變得遙遙無期了啦可能也都沒辦法處理到啦所以我是想說在這樣的一個情況之下那還有其他這麼多委員的版本所以我建議啦我們這個大概爭議最大的就是在這個45條那我想這個我還是主張我們是不是保留朝野協商然後大家再來做這個通盤的一個討論好 謝謝"},{"start":3789.163,"end":3808.652,"text":"好 謝謝 請林黛嬅委員接下來請林淑芬委員好 這個我也贊成在朝野協商當中再去討論以我高雄市來講我們整個東高雄、旗美地區9區我們的人口流失非常嚴重"},{"start":3809.853,"end":3817.216,"text":"我的出生率已經降到3.77%我60歲以上的占比是34.11%聽好哦60歲以上是占34.41%一個高雄市的城鄉差距是這麼大那現在我要來處理就是所謂的農業的非都市計劃內的這個農地的問題也就是在我高雄市之後你更限制了"},{"start":3838.644,"end":3865.72,"text":"我整個在榮地佔最多的東高雄跟非都市計劃內的榮地好那對於城鄉發展的這個部分是否能夠適宜性的做產業的發展就業制就業增加就業機會在相關所有的配套沒有講清楚之前本席是反對都市計劃法的通過配套如果沒有"},{"start":3867.321,"end":3876.651,"text":"國土計劃法當中的配套沒有提出來的時候那就是延期要把配套重於我的主計劃再來我們說這個國土計劃法當中要達到的目的是什麼我們講到說要糧食安全就以現況"},{"start":3885.52,"end":3910.956,"text":"糧食安全的風險這個通過之後自給率是下降的龍一的面積是少於區域計劃法當中的特定農業區原本約有3萬到4萬公頃的河川地在不影響防洪的前提下長期做農業使用是臺灣重要蔬菜、瓜類產地卻要被列為國土保育法"},{"start":3912.317,"end":3938.378,"text":"在都市計劃下的10萬公頃的農地當中農業部也曾經盤點有將近3萬公頃能是優良的農地應放在農業發展地區的第五類但最後各縣市政府卻是依據城市發展需求將大部分符合完整且高比率農業條件的農地放入了城鄉發展地區"},{"start":3939.822,"end":3967.725,"text":"該放的不放那目前有在做農作的不該放的你要放上述三個地區超過家種就超過10萬公頃的面積是重要生產力的農地卻未被列入優良農地的範圍這樣農地發展地區的話色恐讓台灣的農業生產力降低導致糧食自主力的下降影響糧食安全的風險好那再來"},{"start":3969.126,"end":3992.511,"text":"農地管理及品質有沒有提升我認為沒有如果這個法通過農業部原先依據全國國土計劃法發射來模擬農醫面積是33萬7千公頃但各縣市政府提報的農醫的面積是多少27萬7千公頃相較之下少了6萬少了6萬"},{"start":3996.039,"end":4017.173,"text":"倘若土地管理制度如果沒有合理的配套處理一定造成農業生產力的下降好再來阻礙農業發展許多農業休閒地區或農場被化為國土保育地區限縮了具百億產值的休閒農場的發展"},{"start":4019.654,"end":4043.283,"text":"若以為將山坡地直接化為國土保育區就達到保育的目標而不細緻我強調細緻區分環境敏感程度及影響輕重除了畫色成果完全和事實有嚴重的落差也可能造成保育跟農業雙輸以我高雄市原高雄縣"},{"start":4044.503,"end":4050.67,"text":"是我農業區的重鎮元高雄縣是我元高雄市的19倍面積耶我們的配套以及劃分的細膩性"},{"start":4056.027,"end":4080.804,"text":"是沒有的所以這個部分我站在高雄市民全高雄市民成鄉要均衡發展高高高平共榮成鄉共好這個理念之下如果配套沒有百分百的給我提出來本席我是反對現有的規劃要馬上通過所以我建議就是延期那我也贊成保留協商 謝謝"},{"start":4083.994,"end":4103.53,"text":"謝謝林代化委員我們這個討論了那麼久可是怎麼高雄的委員都還對於我們這個國土計劃法有這麼多的這樣的施行感覺還不是很OK所以我本心是希望行政單位應該要多溝通那我們接下來請林淑芬委員"},{"start":4104.13,"end":4108.612,"text":"好 各位在2015年要立法的時候我們就考慮到這個對地方對行政還有對這個農業地區的人會很大的衝擊所以我們其實是給了8年至少8年的這個準備了並不是說一完成立法就馬上要怎麼樣其實沒有如果大家覺得8年不夠可是我們知道看來16個縣市他們認為足夠了所以他們已經送出來而且已經完成審議了所以我們的意思是說那不夠的人大家想個辦法"},{"start":4134.005,"end":4138.609,"text":"就脫鉤嘛已經完成審議的人那你就先行那不夠的人就你要慢慢來你就慢慢來但是不要給他定時你要定時定6年定8年然後呢人家準備好的人他就已經準備好你叫他不能施行所以我們是不是能夠務實一點的討論就是說我們把疑病疑病這個字眼拿掉"},{"start":4158.105,"end":4173.038,"text":"那前面的到底是要幾年或是不要框幾年限縮死了你可能4年後那中央去指定施行日期那中央你就是不要一併分階段準備好的先行這樣子"},{"start":4173.899,"end":4178.042,"text":"這樣是很務實的就是你現在定了8年定了6年然後呢人家準備好的你還讓他不能上路在這種狀況裡面有可能準備好的地方的他們的大家為了搶這個過渡時期所以農地會持續流失和破碎化那他沒有辦法維持一個合理的運用大家都搶個案變更而且個案變更的申請數量已經暴增了的確都是暴增了我們今天在講說個別縣市以外你要考量全國"},{"start":4203.679,"end":4229.227,"text":"全國的這一些國土的規劃我們事實上國土計劃法並不是說洪水猛獸事實上也很多縣市他因為這個國土計劃法通過了以後呢這一些縣市他們有可能可以增加自己規劃他們因為有彈性可以比如說他們自訂可以因為地方特殊需求訂出管制規則阿里山縣阿里山鄉可以阿里山民宿區雲林的寺廟專區等等"},{"start":4230.908,"end":4254.469,"text":"那我們其實在裡面也允許一些這個新建農舍等相關設施並不是完全沒有彈性但是你主張這樣子就沒有辦法個案變更想要維持個案變更的沒關係 那你就慢一點那我們準備好的先行所以因為這樣子高金素美委員才會有一個修正動議所以如果這個大家是不是先討論我們戰不戰成分階段"},{"start":4257.287,"end":4279.516,"text":"準備好的先行那分階段準備好的先行那文字應該怎麼修才是最恰當的那沒有準備好的我們也不強迫他但文字要怎麼修可以讓他們不被強迫到如果這樣子逃退而求其次啦大家都不要太把它鎖死我們也不鎖死現在馬上那如果也不鎖死說阿一定要規定6年8年以後那我們讓準備好的先行那要怎麼處理很務實的來討論這樣子"},{"start":4287.404,"end":4290.567,"text":"好 謝謝接著請劉建國委員發言好 謝謝主席可以請坐啦請坐啦因為不一定會請行政官員回座因為是林委員講完我接續講林委員講的講完我基本上"},{"start":4312.128,"end":4340.181,"text":"是尊重但是正在內政部、正在農業部如果單純以農業的這個規劃來去做思考對於國土計畫在整體這個四個公共分區裡面我們的占比是怎麼樣我相信正在中央主管機關有一定的這樣的一個科學的一些根據跟盤查所以這個案如果說已經準備好了先行"},{"start":4341.121,"end":4365.64,"text":"那後面的再補上來那會不會跟你們原有的評估相關的科學這些根據有所落差那萬一有落差的時候能有去做調整哪一個縣市他必須要去做調整哪一個縣市他要檢要爭誰來做這樣的一個決定那地方政府願意願意願意這樣接受嗎"},{"start":4366.721,"end":4394.168,"text":"因為國土計畫基本上二屆就是縣市政府的公告這很清楚現在來到中央所以中央跟地方必須要充分合作然後非常的清楚把整個這樣的一個四大的功能盤整得非常非常到位他有夠格去做國土計畫不然我覺得如果整個在執行過程裡面幾個縣市是這樣幾個縣市又是那樣"},{"start":4396.38,"end":4417.979,"text":"到時候破壞整體的一個制度、佔比也會造成未來國土計畫的破碎性跟被人民挑戰這是第一件事情第二件事情我一直有在特別強調就是說當時為什麼在小康政府的時候會延了三年"},{"start":4418.94,"end":4427.473,"text":"那當時延伸三年最主要理由是什麼?好,現在時間到了那當年延的理由現在有消滅掉了嗎?"},{"start":4428.43,"end":4455.553,"text":"如果當時演的理由到現在要去執行反而還沒有消滅掉的時候那現在怎麼有辦法去執行這是第二件事情那第三件事情剛剛參議員也特別提到那天也是在這個財務法裡面我特別提到的一件事情我們在講財政訴訟法為什麼要跟國土計畫會連結在一塊因為那天很可惜財政訴訟法我們都在講收我們沒有在講支"},{"start":4457.339,"end":4479.699,"text":"只講收不講資啦所以那個陳浩華那天在秀的時候已經違背了財政雙數方法的整個公平性跟他的原意相對的我們雲林縣、農業大縣各位都非常清楚一直在講糧食自給率、自給率我們在糧食自給率的供應、貢獻有多大農業部有幫我們講話嗎?有幫我們把這個東西盤整出來嗎?"},{"start":4483.402,"end":4496.483,"text":"不是只有銀縣、嘉義、彰化、屏東等報完剛剛林大法委員特別提到了東高雄這些原有的農業用地現在在區域計畫裡面就是特農跟一般農"},{"start":4497.852,"end":4523.994,"text":"那顧名思義可能不是100%的轉嫁啦比如說特農就一定變成農醫但是依照我們雲林縣原有的規劃5萬5的在區計畫裡面的特農變成農醫之後是成了6萬我不曉得國民署跟農業部有沒有去看到這樣的事情那我雲林縣一年產值八九百億屏東人產值七百多億"},{"start":4525.441,"end":4532.289,"text":"屏東現在的特農是1萬1變成國土經濟化之後的農業剩下5500那雲林原本是5萬5國土經濟化的農業之後變成6萬我們足足大過屏東12倍"},{"start":4546.172,"end":4565.583,"text":"這個你們要去思考啊我現在讓你聽地方政委說他現在在做調整了他有在調整了他怎麼調整他調整起來合不合乎整個農業貢獻的這個縣市的農役的占比包含農二包含農三等這個占比公平嗎這個大家講清楚啊"},{"start":4570.034,"end":4591.685,"text":"在這個沒有講清楚的情況之下然後我們又是依照當時什麼樣的根據然後去做這樣的一個規劃為何原先是這樣的規劃那現在當然有一些討論有一些質疑有一些挑戰的情況之下又去做了大幅的修正喔"},{"start":4593.103,"end":4602.791,"text":"現在不到6萬了,剩下多少,你們都比我更清楚因為你們都有各別隊、各縣市去做聯繫嘛這個轉換這麼多,這個窗戶誰要負責任啊怎麼一下子可以這樣,一下子又可以那樣那你中央全部報給你,你都能概括承受嗎?你都接受嗎?所以你要跟我講國土計畫的執行"},{"start":4619.049,"end":4640.617,"text":"對農民而言、對農業而言、對私農工商而言、對都內跟非都所有的土地的這樣的一個運用規劃站在一個國家的上位土地的一個規劃的計劃裡面我這樣搞下去我會覺得我無所遵循啦我無所遵循"},{"start":4642.161,"end":4667.594,"text":"所以我當然知道說有許多縣市人家七早八早可能透過很多的專家學者教授專業的團隊顧問進駐長期的去把這整個空間盤整出來如何去跟如果有三級政府的去跟鄉鎮市透過鄉規透過其他的這樣的一個評估很認真的很用心的然後站在不管是站在這一個"},{"start":4669.539,"end":4696.206,"text":"站在這個農民的角度站在農地的角度去好好去做思考他規劃出來可能他現在已經到位了他們地方有沒有什麼意見我覺得剛剛林委員所講的確實啊有些人你要準備好你該讓人家上路去上路啊但是我說回歸到中央你站在全國的去面對到到底你是在八十萬的農地七十萬的農地六十萬的農地然後分布在所謂的農一到農五"},{"start":4697.506,"end":4714.636,"text":"你中央定奪了嗎?你中央決定了嗎?到時候如果先後訴訟的情況之下又沒有照你們如期的這樣的一個規劃、目標的面積那除了插入誰負責?是地方負責還是中央負責?這個大家要講清楚啊"},{"start":4720.221,"end":4744.075,"text":"這個一定要講清楚最後一點我特別強調當我們在供給這樣的一個糧食全國算是最大宗的蔬果包含畜牧業幾乎算是最大的情況之下在財政訴諸荒野的時候怎麼這個分配沒有把農業的這樣的一個貢獻去把它分配出來"},{"start":4745.031,"end":4762.28,"text":"那我現在在國土計畫裡面我們要把這個東西塞進去塞得進去嗎?如果塞如果只有農業縣的一個縣市去塞那當然其他縣市又會覺得不公平那我就不曉得你們要怎麼執行下去所以我簡單做適當的提醒給各位做一個參考"},{"start":4765.286,"end":4789.301,"text":"主席是不是就劉委員所說的就是說如果分階段讓準備好人先行真的會站在中央的立場會有這個產生這樣的困難嗎是不是請行政部門出來說明一下好本席先詢問還有沒有委員有要針對45條發言的好如果暫時沒有那我們請行政單位來說明"},{"start":4795.193,"end":4822.167,"text":"謝謝召委我想我來綜合回答一下剛剛幾位委員的這個憂慮第一個我非常謝謝各位因為在兩三個月前國土計劃法其實被充分的污名化那現在終於我們爭取到有空間有時間來跟大家來討論我是覺得非常謝謝各位不管最後的修正條文會產生什麼樣的結果但是我要先跟各位報告一下就是說從國土計劃法開始實行到現在"},{"start":4823.027,"end":4841.422,"text":"第一個 全國的國土計劃法已經公告第二個 各縣市的國土計劃也已經公告所以所謂的大面積 不管是大面積的農地或是大面積的工業區土地在不管是4年前或是8年前曾經公告過那現在我們只不過是希望說"},{"start":4842.823,"end":4860.463,"text":"各縣市政府可以按照當時差不多是4年前的縣市的國土計劃的一個公告的內容把功能分區圖再送到內政部來審議這是一個審議的機制不是說來了我們就是打圈或打叉絕對是沒有這個意思"},{"start":4862.125,"end":4866.527,"text":"那同時在處理的程序當中我們有加入所謂的通盤檢討那一般來講我們所了解的通盤檢討大概是五年但是如果大家覺得說五年太長的時間雖然寫五年內但是很多人都把它講成是五年我們也可以認同說縮短到也許是三年內也沒有關係"},{"start":4882.176,"end":4896.732,"text":"也就是說這個機制它是可以跟著變動的在內政或是說在國土計畫的這個審議委員會裡面如果它要調整的話其實是只有微調的空間除非縣市政府它要修改它的"},{"start":4897.353,"end":4900.696,"text":"公能分區圖透過通盤計劃的檢討這個大概就是跟幾位委員所提到的部分跟大家先回應一下然後會進入就是大家所說的部分為什麼我們會提鄉規的部分就是說我們希望在有農業生產為主的比較偏鄉或是鄉鎮的地區可以納入鄉村級的都市計劃"},{"start":4921.152,"end":4926.036,"text":"也就是說我們不是只有農地拿來生產農業農地也有農民的生活圈也有農民所需要的包括學校、市場等等這些所以它如果變成是相規計劃的部分的話也可以容納進去我們的功能分區圖來一起來討論也就是說我們把處理的程序盡量把它透明化跟公開化同時要有一致性"},{"start":4945.289,"end":4951.475,"text":"這個一致性就是縣市地方政府跟這個我們的國土計劃委員會裡面能夠達到一定的功能那大家都有達到這樣的共識的時候我們才有可能把剛剛所說的因為區域計劃法會可能隨著未來如果有公告這個國土功能分區的時候可能就是要關門了那也就是說在這樣子的轉變的過程當中一定會有很多爭議"},{"start":4969.013,"end":4983.42,"text":"那現在目前爭議最大的就是來自於農業縣的幾個這個委員所關心的部分那大概有幾些問題呢這個大概是我們的農業部門可以跟大家來做一下回應那以上是程序呢我先跟大家做一個簡要的說明好嗎謝謝好"},{"start":4987.264,"end":5006.455,"text":"那如果針對45條這個如果沒有委員還要發表意見的話因為我們整個的包括延長的時間還有是不是要把一併拿掉沒有整體的共識所以我們就保留保留剩議員會協商"},{"start":5007.896,"end":5026.229,"text":"好,那最後我們就來到第32條之一,有關於農地發展權的這一個,它是禁負二讀的法案,是不是我們請提案委員,許宇甄委員來說明"},{"start":5035.029,"end":5040.461,"text":"謝謝主席還有謝謝我們的部長請先回座 謝謝有關這個"},{"start":5047.343,"end":5070.33,"text":"有關本席所提出的《國土計劃法》增訂第32條之一的條文草案主要是針對在《國土計劃法》是著重在化學功能分區但是整部法我們看到只有棍子沒有糖果因為農業是國家的發展之本那農地更是國土永續重要的一環那《國土計劃法》不能只做土地的管制也應該要有農業的補償"},{"start":5071.75,"end":5090.011,"text":"那損失補償以及土地配套措施的完整支持就讓整體的架構更加完備才能讓農業能夠持續的發展農民才更有意願能夠繼續投入耕作那這一次推動農業錢修法的主核心目標是為了保障農民的權益我們檢視國土計劃法"},{"start":5091.713,"end":5095.875,"text":"關於農業權並沒有相關的規範因此在國土計劃法暫緩實行如果實施通過後應該一併處理農業權的一個問題那農民對於國土計劃法的憂慮主要的針點在於受限制卻沒有補償會有增訂農業權使良好的農地獲得法定的補償才能減少農民對農地轉為非農使用的誘因農業才能永續發展"},{"start":5118.604,"end":5132.377,"text":"而土地權益的措施應包含農地發展權的移轉以及農業農地價值量化或計算的相關補貼方式最好將糧食安全等效益回歸給農民、農地和農業的發展才能達成政府維護農地農用的政策目標"},{"start":5137.521,"end":5152.907,"text":"農地發展權是影響全國農民的重要的一個政策議題那中央政府欲積極嚴密方案由於我國對於農業權、農地發展權一直都停留在概念的層面缺乏農地發展權相關的移轉制度的立法授權"},{"start":5153.647,"end":5176.184,"text":"那為了兼顧糧食安全期、土地公平爭議、農業權的修法完成之後我們將授權中央主管機關提出全國農地的發展權移轉制度政府可以嚴密適合我國農業用地以及建築用地的合理的調配的制度避免中央地方各自解讀、各自論述的一個情形"},{"start":5177.245,"end":5198.575,"text":"因此本席提出國土計劃法增訂第23條之一增列有關農業權補償的條文那希望增訂之後讓農民的權益獲得明確的保障那也可以提高農民的收益並提升人民從農的意願落實國家糧食安全的目標促使農業永續發展以達到區域發展的橫平性謝謝"},{"start":5204.62,"end":5206.884,"text":"我們接下來是不是請國土署還有農業部來說明先請國土署先請農業部"},{"start":5219.956,"end":5239.806,"text":"謝謝委員那事實上我們現行的區域計劃法當中屬於農業用地的這些農地在轉為國土計劃法全面實施之後它被劃入農業發展地區農役到農務的話它還是農地仍然可以按照"},{"start":5240.566,"end":5264.547,"text":"目前的農業的產制取消來使用它也叫做農地所以變成國土計劃法之後我們並沒有對於農役到農務有任何加強嚴格的管制的這樣的狀況因此並沒有所謂的實質損失所以既然沒有這個加研也沒有實質的損失的話事實上就沒有發生所謂合理的補償因為現在的"},{"start":5267.049,"end":5287.799,"text":"區域計劃法之下的這個農地你如果變成國土計劃法裡面的一套農務的話還是可以照本來的這個使用所受到的限制目前區域計劃法裡面有三項受到限制第一個就是寵物生命紀念館的設施這個不能設在農役裡面第二個就是這些砂石碎結"},{"start":5288.879,"end":5313.278,"text":"委員習選不能再容移第三個就是事業廢棄物設施不能再容移事實上現在的特定農業區也是一樣受到這樣的一個限制因此根本沒有說區域計劃法變成國土計劃法之後有實質的我們對於土地管制的加嚴所以基本上也不會有實質的損失所以在要去設什麼農業圈的這方面的補償其實在"},{"start":5317.932,"end":5341.286,"text":"理論上是講不通這第一點第二點就是農地發展權移轉制度其實我是不曉得這個定義是不是可以再把它更清楚因為農地本身它就沒有所謂這個發展權移轉因為除非它是建地我這農地就是做農用的話事實上都還是可以來做使用沒有所謂它的權利的移轉制度以上"},{"start":5345.851,"end":5372.905,"text":"等一下這個剛剛我們次長還在詢問這個什麼農地發展權的他講的是農地發展權沒有定義啊在第三項沒有這個現在就是說這個法案已經出出來了齁那都沒有溝通欸沒去了解嗎不是因為這個臨時提出對沒關係所以這個行政單位要再加強接著請國土署"},{"start":5374.689,"end":5402.756,"text":"感謝委員的指教那其實有關農業權的部分當然我們其實都非常認同農業應該要有合理的一個機制讓農民在生產在生活上有比較受到好的照顧但是其實今天如果放在國土計畫法裡面它涉及到的是全國的土地尤其是農地本身那我們其實在臺灣現行的一個法令制度下"},{"start":5403.536,"end":5429.139,"text":"在過去大法官的相關的解釋以及憲法的解釋裡面大家都是以依據現況那我新訂的法令有剝奪它比現況還要差的這樣一個環境的狀況下那自為所謂的剝奪它的這個這個剝奪或限制它的一個權益那但是其實我們在訂國土計畫的時候我們已經充分考慮了農民在生產生活行為上的必要所以"},{"start":5429.899,"end":5456.533,"text":"彼之過去的區域計畫法我們還增訂了比較大的一個彈性那也過去區域計畫法沒有所謂的鄉村的縣市政府並沒有主動的規劃權我們在這一次呢也透過鄉村第一整體規劃希望能夠讓縣市政府乃至於到鄉村公所他們都有權利來來爭取自己鄉村的這個規劃權就是希望讓他們在現行的狀況下能夠還有對未來的發展的期待"},{"start":5457.173,"end":5484.269,"text":"那農業發展權本身就是在沒有任何規劃狀況下直接賦予它一個預期的價值或預期的利益那這些呢其實在過去在台灣的執行不管我們是看英國、美國他們原本在實行的一個概念其實大概不脫於是類似發展權移轉的概念那發展權移轉在美國它所提到的它是屬於大面積的農地或需要保護的地區"},{"start":5485.29,"end":5499.485,"text":"在去進行的那過去他的這個交易面積其實非常大幣而且確實是為了農業生產那當時呢也認為這樣是一個很好的制度但是其實我們台灣第一個大家的農民的土地的持分的面積其實相對是非常小"},{"start":5500.606,"end":5522.352,"text":"不會像美國那樣可以拿出來交易的動作是幾百公畝甚至上千公畝以上的土地在交易那第二個呢在以台灣這樣土農地比較零星而且比較大家小面積的狀況下去執行的話它就會類似現在都市計畫區所執行的公共設施保留地的容積移轉的概念是一樣"},{"start":5523.192,"end":5547.529,"text":"那過去保留地的移轉概念在民國78年第一次開始提出來以後那其實在當時的文化部跟內政部都有積極的去研擬也有去國外參訪那去了解日本德國的相關制度但是從85年開始第一版的執行古蹟的容積移轉到後來88年去訂定公共設置保留地的容積移轉"},{"start":5548.57,"end":5575.242,"text":"大家在當時也預期有可能會造成土地的交易發展權的交易不正常也就是說對於收購者來講當然是希望價低者得而不是價高者得因為一個都市即便我們限縮到都市計畫區內一個都市計畫區內也有幾百公頃的公設地保留地可以去變成對建商來講對開發商來講我就要找最便宜的結果就會造成有需要錢的人他只好建價出售"},{"start":5576.124,"end":5600.295,"text":"那建價出售往往可能就是兩折、三折那好一點四、五折後來就衍生了收購集團用兩、三折去收購這些榮譽然後再五、六折的價錢再賣給需要的人那這些就會造成在公設保留地後來在執行不佳的狀態下還被監察院還有相關的團體攻擊這樣反而會造成公設保留地地主的權益受損"},{"start":5601.235,"end":5616.083,"text":"那所以到後來102年才又重新啟動全國的都市計畫公共設施的專案通版檢討就是希望徹底來檢討而不是放任讓他去做農機轉的概念那其實今天全國的農地高達74萬到81萬公頃"},{"start":5619.665,"end":5644.632,"text":"這對各縣市來講如果要到跨縣市來講價格、定價跟價格的差異會造成全國普遍性的差異是非常高的我想臺東、屏東、花蓮的農地就不可能跟臺北市、新北市、桃園市的農地相比那價格者低也是未來我想在開放這樣的交易制度一樣會面臨的問題那會不會也造成未來的農民"},{"start":5645.885,"end":5668.508,"text":"或是未來的開發者他就是反正全國土地那麼多我就是繼續收購低價的就好那對於農民來講一旦發展權買走了或是農地買走了他就沒有以後被規劃進來的權利因為發展權一旦定掉你是賣掉了以後你賣掉上面的附加價值以後你也沒有被變更的機會"},{"start":5669.468,"end":5679.591,"text":"那這些就是會造成而且這些整體規劃的地區以後如果在農地上要被做整體規劃這些地方就是零星缺口的位置"},{"start":5680.285,"end":5703.717,"text":"那這些企業都會不管是對於農民的實質的權益或是對整個未來要做整體開發的這個開發的縣市政務來講都會是一個雙向的損失所以我們在目前來講會針對這個部分覺得這是一個非常大的疑慮那因為國土計畫法本身也是一個作用法它不是一個基本法的概念那一旦定了就變成勢必要"},{"start":5704.858,"end":5720.24,"text":"依照這樣的一個做法,我們就要全國性的去調查,而且要邀請各縣市政府相關的去進行,可想而知過去大家的經驗都一而再,再而三會重複提我想這對國路計畫法在這一塊沒有徹底研究清楚之前"},{"start":5720.92,"end":5735.277,"text":"我們是建議不應該貿然的這樣一個提出這樣其實反而會造成未來在農地上又被賦予這樣的一個狀況下對於台灣現在的農地交易來講會產生更混亂的現象那以上是國土署的一個意見"},{"start":5737.042,"end":5738.223,"text":"行政單位有要表達意見,請代專門委員"},{"start":5759.733,"end":5785.094,"text":"主席各位委員大家好主席總處這邊針對那個徐宇甄委員所提到的這個第三項因為第三項委員這邊有提到說設立特別基金那當然前端剛剛那個農業部跟那個國土署署長這邊有說相關的有沒有損失需要劃設農地有沒有損失需要補償這個還需要再評估啦那我們這邊是提到說"},{"start":5785.894,"end":5812.242,"text":"那有關這個前端應該是由內政部你會同農業部再去就有沒有產生損失需以補償先去評估然後對財務的衝擊你也要先去涉算那前端他們涉算完了之後再來決定那因為現在的條我們就馬上提到說要設立特別基金那依照財政紀律法第八條規定設立基金必須具備國庫撥補以外新增氏族的財源"},{"start":5812.762,"end":5832.645,"text":"那因為現在的條文是沒有規劃裁員的這一個部分那如果就冒然的就是寫了設立特別基金這幾個字可能會影響這個違反財政紀律法的規定所以我們是建議說這個條文的第三項即設立特別基金這幾個字我們是建議刪除以上謝謝好謝謝那我們請徐宇甄委員然後林淑芬委員"},{"start":5842.812,"end":5867.807,"text":"謝謝主席針對剛剛農業部那個胡次長提到的說農一跟農五其實都一樣應該不會有什麼特別的損失那這樣的話是不是我們都可以全部都不要畫農一呢就是讓全部都從農二開始畫因為這樣的話就不會對這些農民他們感受到他們會遭受到這樣的一個損失那尤其是剛剛提到的為什麼講說這個農業權的部分的話就是因為事實上我們現在就是限制他要農地農用"},{"start":5869.048,"end":5879.712,"text":"所以說他已經以後沒有辦法開發所以相對的他土地價格可能有一個預期的心理可能會下降同樣的包括農二的部分他可能因為化為農二之後他以後還有變更的機會所以他土地價格會上升這一來一往之間其實對於化為農醫、農地、農用的這些農民們他就"},{"start":5886.075,"end":5891.817,"text":"併案審查委員吳琪銘等16人：一、本院內政委員吳琪銘等16人：一、本院內政委員吳琪銘等16人：一、本院內政委員吳琪銘等16人：一、本院內政委員吳琪銘等16人：一、本院內政委員吳琪銘等16人：一、本院內政委員吳琪銘等16人：一、本院內政委員吳琪銘等16人：一、本院內政委員吳琪銘等16人：一、本院內政委員吳琪銘等16人：一、本院內政委員吳琪銘等16人：一、本院"},{"start":5912.205,"end":5928.233,"text":"那當時是因為農業部一直都不提出來所以我們今天提出一個這個農業權的概念就是說希望針對這樣的損失你們可以用什麼樣的方式那我在法律裡也沒有定出說應該一定要怎麼做而是授權主管機關應該來去針對相關的配套輸出做出一個研擬出一個方案"},{"start":5929.654,"end":5943.989,"text":"那其實這個部分我覺得是農業部不該就一開始就講說這個根本不合理或怎麼樣的我覺得應該是要先研究一下瞭解農民真正的需求造成什麼樣的損失才來提出相關的一個配套或大家可以來怎麼研討我覺得這才是重點以上"},{"start":5946.118,"end":5967.481,"text":"好 那請次長回應好 謝謝 謝謝徐委員徐委員所講的非常正確事實上我們農一到農五裡面的農地都是做農用並沒有說農一的這個地 農二或者是農五那個就不做農用其實跟這個沒有關係我們最主要把它劃設農一到農五的原因就是農一的話是25公頃"},{"start":5968.982,"end":5995.336,"text":"集中25公頃 其中有80%的農地是作為農用那如果不符合集中25公頃80%以上做農用的話 那個叫做農用 但是要平地地區那接下來的農山是山坡地 農事是鄉村區 農務是都市計劃區市長這個部分我想大家都知道 資料都有所以我剛剛只是針對說農醫的部分 那這個部分的話因為他以後農醫可以再做變更嗎 可以不做農用嗎"},{"start":5996.316,"end":6018.366,"text":"剛才我所講的就是現在的特定榮譽區裡面的限制榮譽以後也會受到加強性是一樣的但是我們會劃榮譽到榮武是在我們堆疊式的補貼的時候我們會給榮譽更好的補貼是用這種方式來補貼他的就是你問榮譽的補貼是什麼好像大家都還沒有配套錯是不是有啦 我們已經都已經定了啦在"},{"start":6019.366,"end":6024.615,"text":"在榮譽的部分跟榮山它是山坡地山坡地的話我們有山坡地的這個做法那請問補貼是多少補貼的話"},{"start":6027.946,"end":6055.957,"text":"補貼的話其實在融一如果說整體從融一到融五共通的來講的話融一的話可以到14萬5千多這個是一年的話大概有14萬5千多的這個相關您說的是一公頃對 我們的相關政策給他的補貼啦包括稅的優稅制的優惠還有包括我們給他的這個轉座、氣座或者是我們給他的這個對地綠色給互等等這些加起來啊"},{"start":6056.673,"end":6082.947,"text":"這加起來,農一它可以得到的利益是比農二、農三還要高但是它以後就不能作為其他的移轉了是嗎?可以移轉五年內五年內只是檢討嗎?五年一次的檢討嗎?跟委員報告,農一、農二、農三、農四在相關的農業用地只要有提出計畫需求那麼我們就根據計畫需求做審定之後它就可以改變所以我們的署長剛剛有提到的,就是說"},{"start":6083.767,"end":6100.096,"text":"所有的計畫所有的農地它在規劃的時候為什麼我們不同意就是說發射什麼農地發展權是因為你一旦發射農地發展權它被賣掉之後它在未來任何的計畫擬定的過程裡面這塊地都不能被用因為它的權利已經賣出了"},{"start":6101.644,"end":6126.641,"text":"所以他不得變更所以這才是真正判農地死刑你如果用TDR你就是把農地判死刑而在美國的案例裡面他們之所以要用這樣是因為有一群人他就是堅持他要做農所以在美國所謂的農業權指的是我想從事農業的權利你不得干預我而不是說我們要來補助或補貼這是不一樣的概念"},{"start":6127.601,"end":6138.884,"text":"市長我想這個部分當然有不同國家有不同的一個概念的一個陳述但是這個部分我想剛剛我也表達得很清楚了就是說針對這部分我們主要是針對農醫的農地農誘雖然你們剛剛一直講說5年內5年可以提出一次但就不是像現在這樣子"},{"start":6146.806,"end":6151.688,"text":"所以為什麼剛剛講說有一些會可能開始申請可能要做農地一轉就是因為我看不到我現在作為農地農用我將來的未來我只會感受到說我就是會有很大的一個損失所以說為什麼希望說農業部這邊能夠有一個相關的配套措施讓這些農民尤其化作為農醫的農民他們能夠感受到說政府對他們的特別犧牲能夠有特別的補償"},{"start":6170.578,"end":6194.208,"text":"那主要的目的是這樣那相關的配套措施我是覺得到現在其實剛剛講的這個配套措施我們到現在也還沒看到那所謂的一公頃14.5萬到底是什麼樣的詳細的狀況好像也說不清楚而且就是每一個每一公頃找我提出申請就可以14.5萬我相信也不是還有很多的相關的一個問題所以這個部分的話主要是這樣那要不然的話其實對於國土計畫法來說每個縣市我相信大家都會願意來去針對國土計畫法來的"},{"start":6199.87,"end":6208.276,"text":"上路但是目前的問題就是這些問題都還沒有配套出這還沒有解決之前是不是要衝倉促的上路我覺得這是現在真正問題的癥結所在好那謝謝委員的指教我想還是跟委員們做一個說明在目前區計法的狀態之下事實上農地的變更的程序跟權力其實反而比國土計畫更複雜因為你個案變更是要有相關的"},{"start":6226.269,"end":6252.882,"text":"議務或者說有些計劃有些比鄰等等的狀況你如果沒有這些狀況其實你農地就是農地你不能夠做任何的變更使用但是在國土計劃法的狀況之下每個縣市每一段時間就可以進行檢討而且是全部的檢討就跟我們都市計劃通盤檢討是一樣它有發展的需求它有規劃的需求它有未來進一步不同的發展的想像的時候它就可以被拿出來討論拿出來使用而且就現階段來講我們在"},{"start":6255.965,"end":6268.159,"text":"從上一任的農業部陳其仲部長到現在陳進基部長他們都同意農地上產製除銷都可以設立撲破了過去在區計裡面的一些規範區計裡面規範裡面農地還不見得能夠做產製除銷我們現在為了達到綠色經濟的狀態"},{"start":6274.867,"end":6291.668,"text":"許多的小型的農產加工也可以在國土計畫範圍之內我們透過計畫允許在在地的產製儲銷都發展所以農業其實沒有什麼特別犧牲它就是一個產業它是一個發展那至於那個委員提到的相關的農業的補貼我是不是請我們胡次長在那邊"},{"start":6294.675,"end":6321.146,"text":"好 請胡次長是 謝謝因為我們現在龍一到龍五事實上各縣市政府所劃出來總共大概有79萬公頃龍一跟龍二有五十幾萬公頃其實這個是符合目前中央政府對於整個農地的需求那龍一到龍五的話我們現在就是按照剛才跟委員報告過的我們龍一因為它所做的有受到三個限制就是剛剛所講的這個寵物的生命紀念館"},{"start":6321.966,"end":6332.361,"text":"還有這個什麼沙石業還有這個還有另外啊還有這個事業廢棄屋等等這三種限制那榮譽它又是最弱的榮地所以我們以後再"},{"start":6334.154,"end":6355.585,"text":"這分成五類來對於平地這個農藝的補助會比較高因此以後一定會有農民到縣市政府要求說把我劃到農藝因為事實上他們認為可能誤解啦誤解說農藝可能限制比較多那其實剛才所講的這些跟農業無關的這些廢棄物或砂石廠這根本跟一般農民是無關的"},{"start":6355.785,"end":6370.849,"text":"次長這一步法立法到現在已經8年了那給你們8年的時間去跟農民溝通你說他們還有誤解的話那問題在哪裡絕大部分都沒有了因為一開始的時候就為什麼不去溝通呢絕大部分沒有因為有少部分說什麼會不是再來剛剛不是剛剛您提的不是剛剛次長您提到這個問題喔"},{"start":6376.59,"end":6383.579,"text":"不是啊 因為很多人都講說 農醫被放進去就變成農奴嘛所以我們去解釋解釋將近160餐候其實市長我相信喔 如果像你剛剛講的那樣的話對農民有這麼多的好處你覺得農民是頭殼壞掉 為什麼他們要反對"},{"start":6391.89,"end":6392.251,"text":"五年內應該是五年內五年內"},{"start":6409.369,"end":6423.814,"text":"對五年內嘛那你就變說時間上然後對可不可以變更都不知道那我就想嘛如果是這樣的話那剛照次長的講法的話那為了說在如果是農民為了安全起見我就我拜託你幫我化成農二我至少將來還有一個這個這個變更的一個機會但農醫的話"},{"start":6428.135,"end":6443.127,"text":"我剛不是講說判死刑而是覺得農醫既然只能作為農地農業剛我也講了你對於農地的這個價值有可能會被低估再來就是說我們的農二比如說我現在化為農二我可能未來我的這個土地可能可以移轉"},{"start":6443.787,"end":6459.296,"text":"所以我的農地價值會以變高那這樣一來一往之間當然我們的農民都會感受到我辛苦耕種那你現在好你說一公頃14.5萬我現在還不如把這些農地都租給太陽能光電業者一年就有40萬我什麼都不必做我就有40萬"},{"start":6460.316,"end":6486.557,"text":"所以是這樣的一個概念認為說如果真的希望農民來負擔糧食安全那是不是該給他們一些相關的補償讓他們覺得我們作為農民來為了國家負擔糧食安全那是針對國家的一個幫助那所以我們願意我覺得應該是這樣子而不是說好對他們來說都沒有損失那你想農民為什麼要反對為什麼這麼多朝野的立委公同提出要展言其實就是有很大的問題"},{"start":6487.981,"end":6498.352,"text":"好 次長次長 再加強溝通 再加強這個16人選 也有聽到你說農民還有很多的誤解所以沒關係 我們現在聽委員講你如果不會解釋 回去想一想再來解釋解釋了半天人家還聽不懂 這就是你們的問題好 換我講一下"},{"start":6509.463,"end":6512.624,"text":"現在委員所爭執是說 農地要維持農用犧牲他們可是現在沒有國土計劃法 農地還是要農用啊現在區域計劃法的概念 農地可以不農用嗎 不行的欸"},{"start":6525.168,"end":6530.529,"text":"然後農地沒有農用那他可以個案變更次長剛才已經講了,內政部次長剛才講農地的個案變更他綁很多程序要涉及到計劃所以他要涉及到變更權利他是很複雜的所以現在聯邦會農地個案去變更那是有資料的、有特款的、有領略的"},{"start":6545.053,"end":6553.685,"text":"不是一般農民都可以個案變更區域計劃法沒有國土計劃法現在的個案變更都是靠特權有能力的人大財團大產業大特權的人才有能力去個案變更而現在我們"},{"start":6561.616,"end":6569.341,"text":"在地方都趕快陳情,因為我們的鄉親我的選民,三重如舟無骨的很多都來自於雲林他問我一件事,他說委員我給你請講,我的農地在分林喔,他們都說現在去農地賣菜賣賣啊,搞什麼"},{"start":6576.001,"end":6580.464,"text":"農地不能移轉了他說縣政府就是這樣子說我說國土計劃法以後農地一樣可以買賣一樣可以移轉他一樣可以變更一樣可以蓋農舍通通都沒有改變只是他現在不能夠個案變更沒有方便那些特權的大財團的有能力的人個案變更"},{"start":6602.037,"end":6608.84,"text":"但是對一個沒有能力的小農民來講如果未來地方發展需求他計劃變更我們不用靠地權也不用跟外債團現在如果需要整片他變更是整片的土地大家跟進大家都可以認為需要整片大家一起變更而不是有能力的人自己變更自己好看自己唯一的差別就是不能夠個案變更嘛"},{"start":6628.07,"end":6634.773,"text":"所以現在為什麼要放這個假消息假風聲說農地不能賣啊國土計劃法過去以後農地不能賣不能夠移轉這一個假消息是因為即將要有詐騙集團來了我們講農業權什麼是農業權我們有經驗我有經驗我新北市新北市在巴黎台北港這個專區特區的土地重劃裡面"},{"start":6655.2,"end":6665.15,"text":"新北市政府我們因為抗爭那個阿嬤說我堅持我的土地我不要變成專區我不要變成工業區我不要變成住宅區我就是要務農所以大家抗爭很久終於把那個阿嬤的農地保留下來她要務農這個才叫做農業權"},{"start":6678.363,"end":6684.347,"text":"而你們錢客要的不是農業權,是農地移轉權啦我跟你講,農民搞不清楚不能夠買賣了,我今天買給錢客錢客廉價收購大量的土地然後打折,大家賺這個機會趕快把農民賠命的土地趕快買起來"},{"start":6698.815,"end":6699.878,"text":"然後呢假讓大家不知道資訊不對等然後專業能力不對等都收起了他再去大炒地皮大賺特賺"},{"start":6709.882,"end":6722.291,"text":"這個是有陰謀的 這個裡面不要假借農民也不要假借農業權三個字這個是草土地的農地移轉權的制度而今天藉由框騙、藉由資訊不對等詐騙農民而今天我要再跟大家講國土計劃法施行以後可以蓋農舍、可以買賣、可以移轉、可以變耕"},{"start":6733.098,"end":6742.686,"text":"不用再讓大財團有能力的人只有他們有個案變更的能力啦所以現在在那裡空中為大便然後在那裡假裝包裝了一個農業權的概念什麼農地判死刑那根本不是那樣子這是詐騙地方政府都講不實剛才還一直在講不能移轉、不能買賣胡說八道、睜眼說瞎話真的是詐騙農民"},{"start":6761.084,"end":6777.011,"text":"好 那是不是我們第32條之一我們也保留好 那審查到這邊我們協商的結論國土計劃法修正草案第7條、第8條、第23條增訂的第32條之一、第35條、第40條、第45條均保留送院長協商好 我們今天開會到這邊現在散會 謝謝"},{"start":6790.939,"end":6795.245,"text":"併農民在詐騙土地的要收到土地要詐騙土地的"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T13:34:49.788000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:34:52.071000+08:00","text":"現在開始開會。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T13:34:52.071000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:34:53.093000+08:00","text":"各位委員，大家好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T13:34:53.373000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:35:01.704000+08:00","text":"今天我們協商的議題是國土計畫法，由於國土計畫法攸關人民的權益，\n因此社會也是高度關切。","quality":0.641},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T13:35:04.267000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:35:30.527000+08:00","text":"我們在今年 10 月 24 日召開國土計畫法修正草案的公聽會、也在 11 月\n7 日進行國土計畫法修正草案的第一次初步審查會議、最後在 11 月 21 日進行國土計畫法修正草\n案的審查，而且審查完竣，送出委員會。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T13:35:30.827000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:35:33.889000+08:00","text":"關於本次的協商，在此向各位報告。","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T13:35:37.651000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:36:05.153000+08:00","text":"國土計畫法第七條、第二十三條、第三十五條及第四十\n條均在 11 月 21 日內政委員會審議決議修正通過，原則上，針對這四條請問各黨團能否認同依委\n員會的決議作為本次協商會議的決議，大家等一下都可以表達意見。","quality":0.736},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T13:36:05.393000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:36:11.498000+08:00","text":"第八條的部分，國土署有\n建議的文字，請委員們參考。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T13:36:12.318000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:36:24.767000+08:00","text":"第四十五條就是延期條款，委員會保留，等一下也請各黨團以及\n各位委員們發表高見，看看今天的協商能否達到共識。","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T13:36:24.887000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:36:45.858000+08:00","text":"另外有第三十二條之一，關於農地發展\n權的部分，它是逕付二讀的法案，這次也併案協商，等一下我們會請提案人許宇甄委員說明、\n198\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄\n也會請主管機關回應，以上是今天協商大致需要處理的條文概況。","quality":0.737},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T13:36:46.918000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:37:14.692000+08:00","text":"依例本席先介紹在場委員以及行政機關列席的代表，首先是在場的鄭天財委員、麥玉珍委員\n、許宇甄委員，蔡易餘委員，請問你在民進黨團的職稱是什麼？","quality":0.823},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T13:37:16.632000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:37:16.632000+08:00","text":"書記長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T13:37:16.632000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:37:23.214000+08:00","text":"蔡易餘書記長及林岱樺委員。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T13:37:23.214000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:38:36.430000+08:00","text":"接下來是今天出席的行政官員：內政部部長劉世芳、內政部政務次長董建宏、農業部政務次\n長胡忠一、內政部國土署署長吳欣修、經濟部綜合規劃司副司長許嘉玲、原民會副主委杜張梅\n莊、財政部的 2 位專門委員張婕又及何惠莉，法務部參事廖江憲、國家科學及技術委員會產學\n及園區業務處副處長陳昭蓉、行政院主計總處專門委員戴群芳。","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T13:38:42.493000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:38:59.789000+08:00","text":"現在是不是先請各位委員發表意見？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T13:38:59.789000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:39:15.002000+08:00","text":"或是依照本席剛剛所講的，在委員會已經照案通過審查\n結果的第七條、第二十三條、第三十五條及第四十條，這四條是不是就依照委員會……\n請鄭天財委員。","quality":0.661},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T13:39:15.282000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:40:57.658000+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：請大家看一下修正條文，第二十三條第三項的「前項規則中涉及原住民\n族土地及部落之使用管制者」這句話，因為現行條文是「原住民族土地及海域」，本席當初提\n出的修正條文是在「原住民族土地、海域」的後面加上「部落及部落周邊一定範圍土地之使用\n管制者」，上次協商的時候，大家針對「部落周邊一定範圍」的認定比較有顧慮，但是這個條\n文也不是新創出來的，而是在現行原住民族基本法第二十一條的文字，但大家還是對「部落周\n邊一定範圍」有顧慮，因此就將「部落周邊一定範圍」刪除，至於現行條文中原來已有的「海\n域」，我建議應該還是要留著。","quality":0.654},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T13:40:59.198000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:41:02.940000+08:00","text":"上次是大家對「部落周邊一定範圍」比較有疑慮才予以刪除，\n但「海域」是不是能夠留著？","quality":0.441},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T13:41:03.781000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:41:09.083000+08:00","text":"所以是「原住民族土地、海域及部落之使用管制者」，以上。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T13:41:11.744000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:41:14.646000+08:00","text":"行政單位是否要回應？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T13:41:18.616000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:41:19.842000+08:00","text":"請原民會副主委。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2024-12-26T13:41:21.971000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:41:48.044000+08:00","text":"在此向委員說明，一開始是有「海域」這樣的文字，但是在上次協調時我們\n已經向委員說明，委員是希望要加上「部落周邊一定範圍」的部分，當時並沒有特別說一定要\n將「海域」也放進去，當然原條文是有這個文字，而且放進去對於整個使用管制是有幫助，但\n是在實務上要針對海域做一些管制，可能涉及的層面會更廣。","quality":0.732},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2024-12-26T13:41:48.144000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:41:58.737000+08:00","text":"我們的意見是如果要保留它的話\n，可能還要再評估是否訂得出「海域」的部分，因為目前傳統海域的劃設事實上還沒有一個具\n體的範圍。","quality":0.873},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T13:42:01.070000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:42:15.036000+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：我建議「海域」還是留著，但是你們與內政部已經研擬的使用管制規則\n目前還用不到「海域」，因此就先不訂在使用管制規則裡了。","quality":0.688},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2024-12-26T13:42:15.036000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T13:42:16.036000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T13:42:15.996000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:42:25.020000+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：因為這是現行的條文、現行的條文，只要在現行條文將「部落」加上去\n就可以了，以上。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2024-12-26T13:42:26.160000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:42:27.101000+08:00","text":"委員，第三十五條第一項也要一併調整嗎？","quality":0.529},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2024-12-26T13:42:27.101000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T13:42:28.981500+08:00","text":"委員，它是國土復育區，並沒有\n涉及海域，所以那個不需要。","quality":0.13},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T13:42:28.981500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T13:42:30.862000+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：那個沒有關係。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T13:42:30.862000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T13:42:32.742500+08:00","text":"199\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2024-12-26T13:42:32.742500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T13:42:34.623000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T13:42:34.623000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:42:35.443000+08:00","text":"第二十三條是否就照剛才鄭天財委員所說的把「海域」加上去？","quality":0.64},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T13:42:55.119000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:43:05.221000+08:00","text":"關於第二十三條，我看到鄭委員的版本除了土地、海域，還加上「部落及部落周邊一\n定範圍」，這個「部落周邊一定範圍」就是……","quality":0.792},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T13:43:05.221000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T13:43:11.963000+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：那個 OK，拿掉了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T13:43:11.963000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:43:12.463000+08:00","text":"只有部落？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T13:43:15.164000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:43:19.045000+08:00","text":"我想這個部分還是要讓主管機關表示意見。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T13:43:20.866000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:43:32.058000+08:00","text":"請大家看一下螢幕，我們把正在討論溝通的結果 show 出來。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T13:43:32.738000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:43:36.702000+08:00","text":"鄭委員提出除了「土地」之外\n，還要加上「海域」。","quality":0.765},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T13:43:39.105000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:43:39.605000+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：現行條文還留著。","quality":0.3},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2024-12-26T13:43:41.304000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:44:06.100000+08:00","text":"當然，一般來講，我們的法律體例是現在有的話，在土管就一定要有，但現\n在的狀況是在土管根本不會有，我們也是擔心這樣的體例出來之後，變成到時候又要再加訂，\n所以我認為是不是確定可以再一起處理就好，否則在體例上就會對不起來？","quality":0.847},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T13:44:06.100000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T13:44:12.629000+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：因為現行條文就有。","quality":0},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2024-12-26T13:44:12.629000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T13:44:19.158000+08:00","text":"我知道，沒有具體的管制對象，這樣怪怪的！","quality":0.176},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T13:44:19.158000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:44:23.301000+08:00","text":"這個部分你們要不要再溝通一下，我們可以先往下進行。","quality":0.609},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2024-12-26T13:44:25.362000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:44:35.448000+08:00","text":"如果沒有「海域」的話，現在其實都還行得通，我是認為到時候有具體需求\n再一起處理，看委員認為怎麼樣。","quality":0.81},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T13:44:35.448000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T13:44:36.448000+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：可是要修不是那麼容易。","quality":0},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2024-12-26T13:44:35.829000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:44:40.532000+08:00","text":"相對要是有計劃書或什麼的話，其實都還來得及加啊！","quality":0.818},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T13:44:43.950000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:44:55.235000+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：因為現行條文有，我們把它刪除……我們認為要讓它更好就是加上「部\n落」，因為部落確實是需要的嘛！","quality":0.654},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T13:45:01.926000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:45:13.094000+08:00","text":"主席，基本上，鄭委員認為這個部分要加上「部落」，如果主管機關也認為可以的話\n，我們就沒什麼意見。","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T13:45:13.234000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:45:29.805000+08:00","text":"就「海域」的部分，因為涉及到它的管制對象，剛剛主管機關好像也有\n一些疑慮的地方，我認為這個部分是不是可以先保留，未來在院長的朝野協商時再做進一步的\n溝通？","quality":0.897},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T13:45:29.805000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T13:45:43.214000+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：如果還要再協商，那就先保留，沒有關係啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T13:45:43.214000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:45:56.239000+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：內政部與原民會已經針對使用管制規則溝通協調很多次，而且你們也是\n依照現行條文訂定，「海域」還是在那邊啊！","quality":0.475},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T13:45:56.939000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:46:00.300000+08:00","text":"所以不要太堅持，我們只是把「部落」放進去，\n並沒有影響到你們啊！","quality":0.654},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T13:46:01.101000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:46:01.801000+08:00","text":"主席，可不可以讓原民會講個話？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T13:46:01.801000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:46:01.861000+08:00","text":"好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T13:46:02.021000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:46:02.221000+08:00","text":"原民會，你怎麼看？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2024-12-26T13:46:02.221000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T13:46:11.695000+08:00","text":"剛剛我已經表達過，原本的條文是有「海域」，上一次委員就說「海域」是\n200\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄\n拿掉的……","quality":0.244},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T13:46:11.695000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T13:46:21.169000+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：部落。","quality":0},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2024-12-26T13:46:21.169000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:46:25.712000+08:00","text":"上一次協調時是拿掉的，現在是因為原本的條文有「海域」，我們其實也與\n內政部正在協調相關子法的部分。","quality":0.349},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T13:46:25.892000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:46:28.514000+08:00","text":"你自己認不認為應該把「海域」及「部落」放進去？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2024-12-26T13:46:28.635000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:46:31.377000+08:00","text":"我們認為「海域」及「部落」放進去是 OK 的。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T13:46:32.270000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:46:48.581000+08:00","text":"你自己是原住民，你認為這個國土計畫區納入的話，是否會更便於、更明確的讓你執\n行部落及海域的輔導或管理？","quality":0.609},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T13:46:50.282000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:46:54.846000+08:00","text":"身為原民會的主管機關，你自己要表達你們現況的管理面、輔導\n面，像這樣明確的落入文字是不是有需要？","quality":0.581},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T13:46:54.846000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T13:47:09.182000+08:00","text":"如果真的有需要，誠如國土署署長所言，因為體例\n的關係，它就去改變啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T13:47:09.182000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T13:47:23.518000+08:00","text":"既然這是一個大法令，國土署就會依照原民會的意見去定義什麼是海\n域以及海域的範圍。","quality":0.216},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T13:47:23.518000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:47:36.346000+08:00","text":"包括部落，我們一直講的，是否需要在國土計畫法相關的子法當中再明確\n的定義，既然你本身是主管機關就要表達。","quality":0.83},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T13:47:36.566000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:47:43.331000+08:00","text":"至於那個內容定義的部分，你可以讓國土署參考你\n所謂的定義，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T13:47:43.611000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:47:44.031000+08:00","text":"你再明確的講一下。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2024-12-26T13:47:46.337000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:47:53.863000+08:00","text":"針對海域的部分，我們之前協調的時候，在使用管制規則寫了一條關於海域\n的條文。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2024-12-26T13:47:54.003000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:48:17.429000+08:00","text":"它也是延續原基法的精神，非營利使用的採集是免申請的，類似這樣的條文，在目前\n我們協調的管制規則是有這個部分，因此，如果以當時的協調版本而言，在法源裡放入「海域\n」，其實我們是認同的、是可以的。","quality":0.771},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T13:48:17.849000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:48:18.249000+08:00","text":"部落呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2024-12-26T13:48:19.610000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:48:21.672000+08:00","text":"部落本來就在裡面了、本來就有了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T13:48:23.253000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:48:25.695000+08:00","text":"你們是否認為「周邊」也應該要拿掉？","quality":0.571},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T13:48:25.695000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T13:48:26.733000+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：周邊拿掉。","quality":0},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2024-12-26T13:48:26.733000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:48:30.937000+08:00","text":"「一定範圍」是我們向委員說希望拿掉，因為那個界址不好區隔。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T13:48:32.898000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:48:39.904000+08:00","text":"建議主席，原民會畢竟是有原民在，如果主管機關都認同，我覺得就放入啊！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T13:48:40.445000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:49:00.834000+08:00","text":"只是國\n土署認為內容有哪裡不宜，譬如他認為海域的部分依體例不同，剛剛他講了一個什麼法是沒有\n規範的，那樣就是加進去而已，而且那個是行政作為，他們自己可以處理的。","quality":0.819},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T13:49:03.722000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:49:07.163000+08:00","text":"林委員是認同鄭天財委員加上「海域」嗎？","quality":0.688},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T13:49:10.503000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:49:16.384000+08:00","text":"對，今天最主要是主管機關的意見，因為它本身是原住民委員會。","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T13:49:17.324000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:49:25.166000+08:00","text":"如果主管機關都說\n應該要有，也就是民意與主管機關都認同，我認為是不是就應該要放入？","quality":0.73},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T13:49:25.706000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:49:31.427000+08:00","text":"況且國土計畫法的文\n字是可以增列的、國土署是可以增列的。謝謝。","quality":0.741},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-12-26T13:49:39.884000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:49:55.997000+08:00","text":"第二十三條的第一段是處理禁止與限制使用，剛剛我問過原民會，他們認為在\n海域裡大概只有採集或其他的捕撈。","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-12-26T13:49:57.319000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:50:19.554000+08:00","text":"但是我們講海域的部分，在內政部與原民會的主管之外，\n其實還會有國防部的海軍或海洋委員會在海巡上需要處理的區域，也就是說，有海的部分、有\n陸的部分或是有島礁的部分都是要做一個比較嚴格的定義。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-12-26T13:50:19.734000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:50:28.920000+08:00","text":"目前為止，因為今天出席的就是我\n們內政部與原民會，所以我們認為是不是先把它放到保留的部分？","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-12-26T13:50:29.840000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:50:39.647000+08:00","text":"我的意思是把它放進去變成\n201\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄\n太多的限制、太多的禁止都不是好事，因此提案的鄭委員能否給一點時間？","quality":0.649},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-12-26T13:50:39.967000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:50:44.550000+08:00","text":"剛剛我們蔡易餘書\n記長也特別提到給我們一點時間再思考一下。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-12-26T13:50:44.950000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:51:01.041000+08:00","text":"我們都知道有一些是屬於海洋性原民部落的需求\n，把他們的需求放到原民土管的部分後，我們一定會照這樣的方向處理，但是現在放進去會牽\n涉到其他部會，我們就這樣更動是不太好。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T13:51:01.041000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:51:03.222000+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：不是新放的，而是原本就有了。","quality":0.36},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-12-26T13:51:03.943000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:51:04.083000+08:00","text":"不是，我知道……","quality":0.4},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T13:51:04.083000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T13:51:05.484000+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：是原本就有了。","quality":0.263},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-12-26T13:51:05.484000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:51:09.846000+08:00","text":"我知道，但是它在這一條裡面並不是放寬，你要注意看一下！","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-12-26T13:51:10.527000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:51:12.608000+08:00","text":"因此，我認為這個部分\n要多加思考。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T13:51:13.328000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:51:17.731000+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：這條條文原本就有「海域」，現行條文就有了。","quality":0.433},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T13:51:19.812000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:51:25.396000+08:00","text":"如果行政單位與提案委員還無法取得共識……","quality":0.778},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T13:51:25.396000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T13:51:26.997000+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：就保留吧！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T13:51:26.997000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:51:28.818000+08:00","text":"第二十三條就保留，好不好？","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T13:51:32.894000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:51:34.995000+08:00","text":"原本第二十三條是要修正，現在就是先保留。","quality":0.611},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T13:51:36.696000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:51:43.300000+08:00","text":"接下來要確定第\n七條、第三十五條及第四十條是否依照之前內政委員會審查的結果？","quality":0.629},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T13:51:44.721000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:51:45.321000+08:00","text":"大家有沒有意見？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T13:51:45.321000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T13:51:49.463000+08:00","text":"召委，不好意思！","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T13:51:49.463000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:51:57.467000+08:00","text":"基本上，國土計畫法的這些條文在委員會都做過審查，但是有一些條文是不是可以在\n朝野協商時一併討論？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T13:51:57.467000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T13:52:07.872667+08:00","text":"所以我們是主張……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T13:52:07.872667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T13:52:18.278333+08:00","text":"對，雖然在委員會已經通過，我們也都予以尊重，但我們還是希望在朝野協商時一併\n討論這些條文。對。謝謝。","quality":0.047},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T13:52:18.278333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T13:52:28.684000+08:00","text":"原則上，目前第七條、第二十三條、第三十五條、第四十條就保留。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T13:52:28.684000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:52:35.229000+08:00","text":"接下來討論第八條，國土署有建議的文字，請委員們參考，看大家有沒有什麼意見？","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T13:52:35.249000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:52:35.489000+08:00","text":"請國土署說明建議文字。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2024-12-26T13:52:54.484000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:54:05.001000+08:00","text":"建議文字就是將原條文增列的第三大項修正為「直轄市、縣（市）政府主管機關擬訂\n直轄市、縣（市）國土計畫時，得辦理鄉村地區整體規劃，並視實際需要，研擬鄉村地區計畫\n，納入直轄市、縣（市）國土計畫，並得另以附冊的方式定之」，之前鄉村地區整體規劃原本\n的作業方式是擬訂之後再納入通盤檢討，因為地方政府希望有一個明確且快速的執行，我們也\n認同地方政府的確有做鄉村地區整體規劃，並且明定它的執行方式，所以我們建議強化第八條\n條文的執行效力，直接放進去並得以附冊的方式定之，也就是讓它很明確。","quality":0.819},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2024-12-26T13:54:05.001000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:54:15.005000+08:00","text":"如果這本規劃報告\n經過審查後確實是有能夠明確執行的方式，它就可以另以附冊方式定之，不用再通盤檢討逐一\n202\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄\n載明。","quality":0.562},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T13:54:19.333000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:54:20.174000+08:00","text":"謝謝吳署長的說明。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T13:54:20.974000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:54:23.754000+08:00","text":"請問在座委員對第八條有沒有意見？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T13:54:23.754000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:54:45.616000+08:00","text":"請許宇甄委員。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T13:54:45.616000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:54:46.857000+08:00","text":"我認同國土署的意見。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T13:54:46.857000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T13:54:47.857000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T13:54:47.857000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T13:54:48.857000+08:00","text":"我認為第八條是不是也與其他條文一樣保留送協商？謝謝。","quality":0.042},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T13:54:48.718000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:55:11.197000+08:00","text":"我認同國土署的意見，地方政府訂有鄉村地區整體規劃及明確執行方式者，如果有需\n要也可以納入直轄市、縣（市）國土計畫，等於是給予有鄉村的縣市政府明確的依據，我個人\n是很支持的。","quality":0.605},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T13:55:13.437000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:55:14.979000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝林岱樺委員。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T13:55:14.979000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:55:18.143000+08:00","text":"還有沒有其他委員要表達意見？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T13:55:18.143000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:55:24.091000+08:00","text":"如果沒有的話，第八條也保留。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T13:55:27.302000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:55:29.783000+08:00","text":"請董次長。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"董次長建宏","start":"2024-12-26T13:55:31.824000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:55:49.430000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我們還是希望第八條能夠照審查通過，其實我們對於各縣市政府都有補助\n相關的鄉規，大家也都進行到一定程度，包括雲林縣、嘉義縣、高雄市、新北市、桃園市及澎\n湖都有給予補助。","quality":0.753},{"speaker":"董次長建宏","start":"2024-12-26T13:55:49.550000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:56:08.028000+08:00","text":"因此，我們希望透過法令入法讓這些已經在進行的案子可以很快以附冊的方\n式放入國土計畫，這樣就可以保障地方的權益，還是懇請委員給予我們支持，謝謝。","quality":0.908},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T13:56:11.964000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:56:17.965000+08:00","text":"我認為這個部分還是保留送協商，大家可以再充分的討論。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T13:56:18.766000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:56:21.546000+08:00","text":"第八條也保留。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T13:56:22.747000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:56:23.927000+08:00","text":"接下來討論第四十五條，有關是否要延期的部分，請國土署說明。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2024-12-26T13:56:24.107000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:56:54.535000+08:00","text":"關於第四十五條，到目前截止已經有 16 個縣市政府繳交，我們也已經完成了 9 個國\n土計畫的審查。","quality":0.763},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2024-12-26T13:56:56.256000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:57:12.409000+08:00","text":"就行政單位而言，我們這幾年都是依據法律規定持續進行，希望能讓我們努力\n完成國土計畫，所以我們行政單位當然還是希望這個部分能夠如期。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T13:57:14.550000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:57:15.471000+08:00","text":"請董次長。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T13:57:16.472000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:57:19.735000+08:00","text":"先讓行政單位說明完畢，再請委員們發言。","quality":0.647},{"speaker":"董次長建宏","start":"2024-12-26T13:57:19.735000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:58:03.024000+08:00","text":"我也補充說明一下，除了已經繳交的 16 個縣市之外，這幾天我們也積極與幾位地方\n縣市首長直接通電話，包括雲林縣張縣長、南投縣許縣長、新北市劉副市長、臺中市黃副市長\n及彰化縣王縣長，他們都直接承諾會在年底之前繳交國土計畫，當然我們還是會積極努力，希\n望能夠盡量讓我們將這個攸關整個國家重大國土空間的計畫如期完成。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"董次長建宏","start":"2024-12-26T13:58:03.725000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:58:16.955000+08:00","text":"當然我們也同意，一旦\n送進來經過審查之後，可以馬上啟動通盤檢討，透過啟動通盤檢討針對大家提出疑義的部分進\n行進一步的修正。","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"董次長建宏","start":"2024-12-26T13:58:17.576000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:58:33.645000+08:00","text":"事實上，雲林縣張縣長也告訴我，她送過來的草案就是把他們已經修訂好包\n括農 1、農 2 的空間轉換都送過來，我們也承諾會依照地方特色進行審查，希望能夠爭取委員們\n的支持，謝謝。","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T13:58:41.468000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:58:46.609000+08:00","text":"主席，我是要談高金素梅委員的修正動議。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T13:58:51.570000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:59:14.439000+08:00","text":"目前報部審議完成的已經有 16 個縣市，\n事實上，他們可以先施行，畢竟 2015 年就已經完成立法，到現在已經將近十年了，在這種狀況\n203\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄\n之下，是不是能夠讓報部且審議完成的先行？","quality":0.735},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T13:59:15.059000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:59:25.432000+08:00","text":"只要修正一個文字，將「一併公告」的「一併」\n拿掉，大家就可以分階段，準備好的先行，這是高金素梅委員的修正動議。","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T13:59:32.014000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:59:33.356000+08:00","text":"還有沒有其他委員？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T13:59:33.356000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:59:35.057000+08:00","text":"請許宇甄委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T13:59:35.057000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T13:59:35.217000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T13:59:36.698000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:00:02.680000+08:00","text":"關於國土計畫法是不是要展延，事實上，糧食安全應該是由全國一起負擔\n，不應該由農業縣或農民承擔所有的責任，因此我認為現在這些農業縣市的癥結點是政府針對\n農民的損失並沒有提出相關的配套措施，譬如針對他們的特別犧牲該給予什麼樣的補償。","quality":0.83},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T14:00:03.581000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:00:16.591000+08:00","text":"這個\n國土計畫法的立法也已經超過八年了，相關機關也還沒辦提出良好對策及補償方案，既然政府\n要限制農地的使用方式，應該就要給予農民補償，我認為這樣做對於辛苦工作的農民才有保障\n。","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T14:00:21.215000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:00:32.786000+08:00","text":"為了要保障農民的權益，還是應該等到相關機關提出保障農民權益的相關修法，所以我們希\n望能夠展延，至於展延的年限都可以討論。","quality":0.836},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T14:00:32.966000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:01:08.128000+08:00","text":"剛剛董次長也特別提到幾個農業縣市的縣市長都承\n諾在年底之前、12 月 31 日之前會提出，其實他們的如期提出是希望這段時間還是要針對農業、\n農民的損失提出賠償或對策的方案，並不是提出就代表對這部法沒有意見，只是不希望變成全\n國好像只有誰沒有提出，因此還是希望針對這個部分提出相關的配套措施，以上。","quality":0.877},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T14:01:08.188000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:01:08.249000+08:00","text":"請問還有沒有其他意見？","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T14:01:08.289000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:01:08.309000+08:00","text":"請蔡書記長。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T14:01:14.814000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:01:16.095000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T14:01:16.215000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:01:26.664000+08:00","text":"我們看到第四十五條有很多的版本，有的版本希望再展延、也有的版本有\n其他不同的意見，其實我自己也有一個版本。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T14:01:30.607000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:02:50.805000+08:00","text":"我們都知道，未來國土計畫法正式上路之後，農\n業縣將面臨土地利用遭到限制的狀況，基本上，我本來很期待這次財劃法討論統籌分配的計算\n標準應該針對每個縣市承擔的國土保育區或農業發展區的土地比例，讓負責更多糧食安全或負\n責更多水源供給的縣市拿到更多的統籌分配，很可惜，事實上我提的財劃法在財政委員會都沒\n有被討論，在三讀後也沒有把糧食安全及水源地的標準列在統籌分配評分的配比，所以我自己\n這個提案與財劃法的連動看起來是遙遙無期，可能也無法被處理到。","quality":0.706},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T14:02:52.806000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:03:12.304000+08:00","text":"在這樣的情況之下，何況\n還有其他這麼多委員的版本，而且爭議最大的大概就是第四十五條，因此我還是主張保留送朝\n野協商，大家再來做通盤的討論，謝謝。","quality":0.797},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T14:03:12.304000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:03:15.765000+08:00","text":"請林岱樺委員，下一位是林淑芬委員。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T14:03:16.926000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:03:21.848000+08:00","text":"我也贊成送交朝野協商討論。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T14:03:21.848000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:03:33.874000+08:00","text":"以我們高雄市而言，整個東高雄旗美地區 9 區的人口流\n失非常嚴重，出生率已經降到 3.77%，60 歲以上的占比是 34.41%，聽好，60 歲以上是占 34.41%\n喔！","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T14:03:33.874000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:03:34.834000+08:00","text":"一個高雄市的城鄉差距是這麼大！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T14:03:35.174000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:04:06.788000+08:00","text":"現在要處理非都市計畫內的農地問題，也就是在高雄市\n之後更限制了整個農地占最多的東高雄非都市計畫內的農地。","quality":0.898},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T14:04:08.369000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:04:26.239000+08:00","text":"對於城鄉發展的部分，是否能夠\n適一性的進行產業發展、增加就業機會，在所有相關的配套沒有講清楚之前，本席反對國土計\n畫法的通過。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T14:04:26.899000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:04:36.128000+08:00","text":"如果國土計畫法中的配套沒有提出就是延期，必須要讓配套重於主計畫。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T14:04:36.128000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:04:37.930000+08:00","text":"再來，國土計畫法要達到的目的是什麼？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T14:04:37.930000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:05:12.676000+08:00","text":"我們說要糧食安全，就以現況來看，在這個通過之\n後，糧食安全的自給率是下降的，農 1 的面積是少於區域計畫法中的特定農業區，原本約有 3\n萬到 4 萬公頃的河川地，在不影響防洪的前提下，長期作為農業使用，可說是臺灣重要的蔬菜\n204\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄\n、花卉產地，現在卻要被列為國土保育區。","quality":0.718},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T14:05:14.317000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:05:46.206000+08:00","text":"在都市計畫下 10 萬公頃的農地當中，農業部也曾經\n盤點有將近 3 萬公頃優良農地應放在農業發展地區的第五類，但最後各縣市政府卻以一句「城\n市發展需求」將大部分符合完整且高比例農用條件的農地放入城鄉發展地區，該放的不放，目\n前有農作不該放的，你要放。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T14:05:46.926000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:06:09.025000+08:00","text":"上述三個地區加總就超過 10 萬公頃的面積，而且是重要的生產農\n地，卻未被列入優良農地的範圍，這樣的農業發展地區劃設恐讓臺灣的農業生產力降低，導致\n糧食生產自主力下降，造成糧食安全的風險。","quality":0.841},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T14:06:09.705000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:06:13.407000+08:00","text":"再來，農地管理及品質有沒有提升？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T14:06:13.807000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:06:14.587000+08:00","text":"我認為沒有！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T14:06:15.247000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:06:29.790000+08:00","text":"如果這個法通過，農業部原先依據全國國\n土計畫法劃設模擬的農 1 面積是 33 萬 7,000 公頃，但各縣市政府提報的農 1 面積是多少？","quality":0.898},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T14:06:32.311000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:06:34.511000+08:00","text":"27 萬\n7,000 公頃，相較之下少了 6 萬公頃、少了 6 萬公頃耶！","quality":0.684},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T14:06:38.039000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:06:46.364000+08:00","text":"倘若土地管理制度沒有合理的配套處理\n，一定造成農業生產力的下降。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T14:06:47.865000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:06:59.153000+08:00","text":"再來是阻礙農業發展，許多農業休閒地區或農場被劃為國土保育地區，限縮了具百億產值的\n休閒農場發展。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T14:07:02.034000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:07:23.562000+08:00","text":"如果以為將山坡地直接劃為國土保育區就達到保育的目標，而不細緻區分敏感\n程度及影響輕重，除了劃設成果，完全與事實有嚴重的落差、也可能造成保育與農業雙輸。","quality":0.899},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T14:07:23.922000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:07:31.529000+08:00","text":"高\n雄市的原高雄縣地區是屬於農業重鎮，原高雄縣是原高雄市的 19 倍面積耶！","quality":0.516},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T14:07:31.869000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:07:38.708000+08:00","text":"我們的配套及劃分\n的細膩性是沒有的！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T14:07:40.168000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:08:02.804000+08:00","text":"針對這個部分，我站在全高雄市民希望城鄉均衡發展、高屏共榮、城鄉更\n好的理念之下，如果配套沒有百分百的提出來，本席反對現有的規劃要馬上通過，所以我建議\n延期，也贊成保留協商，謝謝。","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T14:08:05.994000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:08:07.875000+08:00","text":"謝謝林岱樺委員。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T14:08:08.676000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:08:23.228000+08:00","text":"這個部分討論了那麼久，怎麼高雄的委員都還對國土計畫法有這麼多的意\n見，感覺還不是很 OK，所以本席希望行政單位能夠多溝通。","quality":0.855},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T14:08:24.028000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:08:25.530000+08:00","text":"接下來請林淑芬委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T14:08:26.650000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:08:28.411000+08:00","text":"各位，2015 年要立法時就考慮到對地方、對行政以及對農業地區的人會有很大的衝\n擊，所以我們給了至少 8 年的準備期，並不是一完成立法就馬上要怎麼樣，其實並沒有。","quality":0.924},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T14:08:28.531000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:08:29.592000+08:00","text":"或許\n大家認為 8 年不夠，但看起來至少有 16 個縣市認為足夠了，所以他們已經送出來、也已經完成\n審議。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T14:08:29.732000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:08:56.025000+08:00","text":"我的意思是認為不夠的人可以想個辦法，也就是脫鉤嘛！","quality":0.739},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T14:08:56.105000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:08:59.768000+08:00","text":"已經完成審議的人就先行，認\n為不夠的人想慢慢來就慢慢來，不要對其訂定期限，否則，你訂 6 年、訂 8 年，可能讓已經準\n備好的人因此不能施行。","quality":0.661},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T14:08:59.848000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:09:00.589000+08:00","text":"我們是不是能夠務實的討論，把「一併」這個字眼拿掉？","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T14:09:20.366000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:09:36.700000+08:00","text":"前面的到底是要幾年或是不要匡幾\n年限縮死了，可能四年後中央指定施行日期等等，總之就是不要一併，而是分階段，準備好的\n人就先行，這樣是很務實的作法，否則，你現在訂了 8 年、訂了 6 年，反而還讓準備好的人不\n能上路。","quality":0.764},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T14:09:36.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:09:38.681000+08:00","text":"在這種狀況下，有可能準備好的地方為了搶過渡時期，農地會持續流失及破碎化，無\n法維持一個合理的運用。","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T14:09:38.701000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:09:39.662000+08:00","text":"大家都搶個案變更，而且個案變更的申請數量已經暴增，的確都是暴\n增了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T14:09:39.702000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:10:39.274000+08:00","text":"今天除了各別縣市之外，還要考慮全國的國土規劃，事實上，國土計畫法並不是洪水猛\n獸，其實也有很多縣市因為國土計畫法通過之後有可能增加自給規劃、也因為有彈性，譬如可\n以因地方特殊需求訂出管制規則，像是阿里山鄉的阿里山民宿區、雲林的寺廟專區等等，而且\n也允許一些新建農舍等相關設施，並不是完全沒有彈性。","quality":0.858},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T14:10:39.514000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:10:53.706000+08:00","text":"但是，主張這樣就無法個案變更，或\n205\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄\n是想要維持個案變更的，沒關係，你就慢一點，我們讓準備好的先行，因此，高金素梅委員才\n會提出修正動議。","quality":0.681},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T14:10:55.388000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:11:00.247000+08:00","text":"大家是不是先討論我們贊不贊成分階段、準備好的先行？","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T14:11:01.128000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:11:05.109000+08:00","text":"分階段讓準備好的先行，文字該怎\n麼修才是最恰當的？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T14:11:06.090000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:11:10.912000+08:00","text":"對於沒有準備好的，我們也不要強迫它，但是文字要怎麼修，可以讓他們\n不被強迫？","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T14:11:11.992000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:11:13.613000+08:00","text":"這樣的討論是退而求其次啦！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T14:11:14.313000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:11:21.336000+08:00","text":"大家都不要將它鎖死，也不要鎖死就是現在馬上、也\n不鎖死一定要規定 6 年、8 年以後，我們就讓準備好的先行，這樣要怎麼處理？","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T14:11:21.396000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:11:21.496000+08:00","text":"很務實的討論一\n下！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T14:11:29.404000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:11:29.544000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T14:11:29.544000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:11:29.724000+08:00","text":"接著請劉建國委員發言。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T14:11:29.785000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:11:29.805000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T14:11:29.865000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:11:29.965000+08:00","text":"可以請坐啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T14:11:30.205000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:11:30.225000+08:00","text":"請坐啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T14:11:30.245000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:11:30.585000+08:00","text":"因為不一定會請你們上台。","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T14:11:31.146000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:12:10.996000+08:00","text":"剛剛聽林委員講完，我就接續著講，基本上，我是尊重林委員的講法，但是站在內政\n部、站在農業部的立場，如果單純以農業的規劃去思考，到底我們在國土計畫四個功能分區裡\n的占比是怎麼樣？","quality":0.679},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T14:12:10.996000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:12:32.008000+08:00","text":"我相信主管機關有一定的科學根據及盤查，如果這個案子已經準備好的先行\n，後面的再補上來，會不會與你們原有的評估或相關的科學根據有所落差？","quality":0.887},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T14:12:32.729000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:12:35.070000+08:00","text":"萬一有落差的時候\n，如何去做調整？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T14:12:35.691000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:12:44.057000+08:00","text":"哪一個縣市必須要去做調整、哪一個縣市要減、要增，誰來做這樣的決定？","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T14:12:44.958000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:12:47.640000+08:00","text":"地方政府願意接受嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T14:12:49.961000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:12:53.662000+08:00","text":"基本上，國土計畫二階就是縣市政府的公告，這個很清楚。","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T14:12:54.943000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:13:32.733000+08:00","text":"現在來到中\n央，中央與地方必須要充分合作，整個四大功能必須盤整得非常非常到位，讓它夠格稱作國土\n計畫，不然在執行過程中幾個縣市是這樣、幾個縣市又是那樣，到時候破壞了整體的制度、占\n比，這些都會造成未來國土計畫的破碎性以及被人民挑戰，這是第一件事情。","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T14:13:33.694000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:13:39.959000+08:00","text":"第二件事情，我一直特別強調，當初在小英政府的時候為什麼會延了 3 年？","quality":0.828},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T14:13:41.381000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:13:43.804000+08:00","text":"當初延了 3 年的\n最主要理由是什麼？","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T14:13:44.325000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:13:49.473000+08:00","text":"現在時間到了，當時延的理由消滅了嗎？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T14:13:50.430000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:13:57.196000+08:00","text":"如果當時的理由還未消滅，現在\n要如何去執行？","quality":0.684},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T14:13:57.856000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:13:58.517000+08:00","text":"這是第二件事情。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T14:13:59.518000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:14:20.200000+08:00","text":"第三件事情是剛剛蔡易餘委員也有提到，那天審查財劃法時我特別提到了一件事情──我們\n在講財政收支劃分法為什麼要跟國土計畫連結在一塊，因為那天很可惜，我們對財政收支劃分\n法都在講「收」，沒有在講「支」啦！","quality":0.73},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T14:14:21.281000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:14:41.339000+08:00","text":"所以那天修正財劃法的時候已經違背了財政收支劃分法\n的整個公平性跟它的原意，相對的，各位都非常清楚我們雲林縣──農業的大縣一直在講糧食\n自給率，我們在糧食自給率的貢獻有多大，農業部有幫我們講話嗎？","quality":0.756},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T14:14:41.339000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:14:41.699000+08:00","text":"有幫我們把這個東西盤整\n出來嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T14:14:45.402000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:15:19.989000+08:00","text":"不止是雲林縣，嘉義、彰化、屏東等地，包含剛剛林岱樺委員特別提到的東高雄，這\n些原有的農業用地現在在區域計畫裡面就是特農跟一般農，顧名思義，可能不是百分之一百的\n轉嫁，不是說特農就一定變成農一，但是依照我們雲林縣原有的規劃，在區域計畫裡面 5 萬 5\n的特農變成農一之後成為 6 萬，我不曉得國土署跟農業部如何去看待這樣的事情。","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T14:15:21.370000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:15:49.072000+08:00","text":"我雲林縣一\n年的產值八、九百億元，屏東一年的產值七百多億元，屏東現在的特農是 1 萬 1，變成國土計畫\n之後的農一剩下 5,500，雲林原本是 5 萬 5，成為國土計畫內的農一之後變成 6 萬，我們足足大\n過屏東 12 倍，這個你們要去思考啊！","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T14:15:49.953000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:15:54.775000+08:00","text":"我聽地方政府說他們現在有在調整了，但怎麼調整？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T14:15:55.796000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:16:01.960000+08:00","text":"調整\n206\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄\n起來合不合乎整個農業貢獻這個縣市農一的占比？","quality":0.579},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T14:16:02.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:16:07.463000+08:00","text":"包含農二、農三等這些的占比公平嗎？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T14:16:07.463000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:16:07.563000+08:00","text":"大家\n講清楚啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T14:16:12.034000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:16:26.061000+08:00","text":"在這個沒有講清楚的情況之下，然後我們又是依照當時什麼樣的根據去做這樣一個\n規劃，地方政府為何原先是這樣的規劃？","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T14:16:26.301000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:16:33.665000+08:00","text":"現在當然有一些討論，有一些質疑，有一些挑戰，在\n這樣的情況之下卻又去做了大幅的修正喔！","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T14:16:35.103000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:16:35.744000+08:00","text":"現在不到 6 萬喔！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T14:16:35.944000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:16:40.508000+08:00","text":"剩下多少你們都比我更清楚，因\n為你們跟各縣市個別都有去做聯繫嘛！","quality":0.828},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T14:16:40.528000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:16:40.908000+08:00","text":"轉換這麼多，這個 trouble 誰要負責任？","quality":0.632},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T14:16:41.989000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:16:42.649000+08:00","text":"怎麼一下子可以\n這樣一下子又可以那樣？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T14:16:43.830000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:16:44.191000+08:00","text":"全部報給中央，你通通概括承受嗎？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T14:16:44.191000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:16:44.371000+08:00","text":"你都接受嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T14:16:44.371000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:17:21.156000+08:00","text":"所以你要跟我講國\n土計畫的執行，對農民而言、對農業而言、對士農工商而言、對都內跟非都所有土地的應用規\n劃，站在一個國家上位土地規劃的立場這樣搞下去，我會覺得無所遵循啦！","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T14:17:22.077000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:17:22.597000+08:00","text":"無所遵循！","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T14:17:24.301000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:18:06.143000+08:00","text":"我當然\n知道有許多縣市七早八早可能透過很多的專家學者、教授、專業團隊顧問的進駐，長期的去把\n這整個空間盤整出來，如果是有三級政府的，去跟鄉鎮市透過鄉規、透過其他的一個評估，很\n認真的、很用心的，然後不管是站在農民的角度、站在農地的角度好好去做思考，所規劃出來\n的可能現在已經到位了，他們地方也沒什麼意見，剛剛林委員所講的確實有些人家準備好了，\n你該讓人家去上路啊！","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T14:18:06.783000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:18:22.668000+08:00","text":"但是我說回歸到中央，站在全國的角度去面對到底是要 80 萬的農地、70\n萬的農地、60 萬的農地，然後分布在所謂的農一到農五，你中央定奪了嗎？","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T14:18:22.668000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:18:25.769000+08:00","text":"你中央決定了嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T14:18:25.769000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:18:33.574000+08:00","text":"到時候如果在先後順序的情況之下，又沒有照你們如期的這樣的規劃目標面積，要是出個\ntrouble 誰負責？","quality":0.702},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T14:18:33.574000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:18:36.155000+08:00","text":"是地方負責還是中央負責？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T14:18:36.155000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:18:42.782000+08:00","text":"這個大家要講清楚。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T14:18:43.802000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:19:06.075000+08:00","text":"最後一點我特別強調，當我們\n在供給這樣的一個糧食，算是全國最大宗的蔬果包含畜牧業幾乎都算是最大的情況之下，在修\n正財政收支劃分法的時候，怎麼沒有把農業這樣的貢獻分配出來？","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T14:19:07.031000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:19:11.793000+08:00","text":"那我們現在要在國土計畫裡\n面把這個東西塞進去，塞得進去嗎？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T14:19:11.793000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:19:12.094000+08:00","text":"如何塞？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T14:19:13.214000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:19:20.098000+08:00","text":"如果只有農業縣的一個縣市去塞，當然其他縣市\n亦會覺得不公平，那我就不曉得你們要怎麼執行下去。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T14:19:22.559000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:19:24.260000+08:00","text":"以上是我簡單做適當的提醒，給各位做\n一個參考。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T14:19:27.286000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:19:38.293000+08:00","text":"主席，是不是就如劉委員所說的，如果分階段讓準備好的人先行，站在中央的立場真\n的會產生這樣的困難嗎？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T14:19:38.293000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:19:41.435000+08:00","text":"是不是請行政部門出來說明一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T14:19:43.116000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:19:47.859000+08:00","text":"本席先詢問一下，還有沒有委員要針對第四十五條發言的？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T14:19:48.840000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:19:51.281000+08:00","text":"如果暫時沒有，那我們請行政單\n位來說明。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-12-26T14:19:57.193000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:19:57.373000+08:00","text":"謝謝召委！","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-12-26T14:19:57.573000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:20:02.376000+08:00","text":"我想我來就剛剛幾位委員的憂慮綜合回答一下。","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-12-26T14:20:02.636000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:21:40.634000+08:00","text":"首先我要非常謝謝各位，\n因為在二、三個月前，國土計畫法其實被充分的污名化，現在我們終於爭取到有空間有時間來\n跟大家討論，對此我是非常感謝各位，不管最後的修正條文會產生什麼樣的結果，但是我要先\n跟各位報告一下，就是從國土計畫法開始施行到現在，第一、全國的國土計畫已經公告，第二\n、各縣市的國土計畫也已經公告，所以所謂的大面積，不管是大面積的農地或是大面積的工業\n區土地，不管是在 4 年前或是 8 年前曾經公告過，現在我們只不過是希望各縣市政府可以按照\n當時─差不多是 4 年前─縣市的國土計畫公告內容，把功能分區圖再送到內政部來審議，這是\n一個審議的機制，不是說來了我們就是打圈或打叉，絕對沒有這個意思，同時在處理的程序當\n中，我們有加入所謂的通盤檢討，一般來講我們所了解的通盤檢討大概是 5 年，雖然寫的是 5\n年內，但是很多人都把它想成是 5 年，但是如果大家覺得 5 年太長，我們也可以認同縮短到也\n許是 3 年內也沒有關係，也就是說這個機制是可以跟著變動的，在內政或是說在國土計畫的審\n207\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄\n議委員會裡面，如果要調整的話，其實是只有微調的空間，除非縣市政府透過通盤計畫的檢討\n要修改它的功能分區圖，這些大概就是幾位委員所提到的部分，先跟大家回應一下。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-12-26T14:21:40.694000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:22:06.514000+08:00","text":"然後就是大家所說的，我們之所以會提到鄉規的部分，就是我們希望在農業生產為主的比較\n偏鄉或是鄉鎮的地區可以納入鄉村級的都市計畫，也就是說我們的農地不是只有拿來生產農業\n，農地也有農民的生活圈，也有農民所需要的包括學校、市場等等這些，所以它如果變成是鄉\n規計畫部分的話，也可以容納進入我們的功能分區圖，一起來討論。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-12-26T14:22:06.514000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:23:02.298000+08:00","text":"也就是說我們把處理的程\n序儘量的透明化跟公開化，同時要有一致性，這個一致性就是縣市地方政府跟我們的國土計畫\n委員會能夠達到一定的功能，大家都達到這樣的共識的時候，我們才有可能做到剛剛說的隨著\n未來如果有公告國土功能分區的時候，區域計畫法可能就要關門了，也就是說在這樣子的轉變\n過程當中，一定會有很多爭議，目前爭議最大的就是來自於農業縣的幾個委員關心的部分，這\n些問題大概可由我們的農業部門跟大家來做回應。","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-12-26T14:23:02.438000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:23:05.400000+08:00","text":"以上是程序部分，我先跟大家做一個簡要的\n說明，謝謝。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T14:23:14.747000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:23:28.435000+08:00","text":"針對第四十五條，如果沒有委員還要發表意見的話，現在就做處理，因為包括延長的時間還\n有是不是要把它一併拿掉，我們還沒有整體的共識，所以就保留送院會協商。","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T14:23:30.477000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:23:48.209000+08:00","text":"最後是第三十二條之一，有關農地發展權的提案，它是逕付二讀的法案，先請提案委員許宇\n甄委員說明。","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T14:23:57.029000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:24:02.340000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席還有謝謝我們的部長，請先回座。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T14:24:09.923000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:24:45.604000+08:00","text":"本席所提的國土計畫法增訂第三十二條之\n一條文草案，主要是針對國土計畫法是著重在劃設功能分區，但是我們看到整部法只有棍子沒\n有糖果，因為農業是國家的發展之本，農地更是國土永續重要的一環，國土計畫法不能只做土\n地的管制，也應該要有農業的補償，損失補償以及土地配套措施的完整支持能讓整體的架構更\n加完備，才能讓農業持續的發展，農民才更有意願繼續投入耕作。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T14:24:46.285000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:24:54.593000+08:00","text":"這次推動農業權修法的主核\n心目標是為了保障農民的權益，我們檢視國土計畫法，關於農業權並沒有相關的規範，因此在\n國土計畫法暫緩實施通過後，應該一併處理農業權的問題。","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T14:24:54.613000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:25:34.377000+08:00","text":"農民對於國土計畫法的憂慮主要的\n爭點在於受限制卻沒有補償，增訂農業權使良好的農地獲得法定的補償，才能減少農民對農地\n轉為非農使用的誘因，農業才能永續發展，而土地權益的措施應包含農地發展權的移轉以及農\n業農地價值量化或計算的相關補貼方式，只有將糧食安全等效益回歸給農民，農地和農業的發\n展才能達成政府維護農地農用的政策目標。","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T14:25:39.521000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:26:40.575000+08:00","text":"農地發展權是一個影響全國農民的重要政策議題，\n中央政府應積極研擬方案，由於我國對於農業權、農地發展權一直都停留在概念的層面，缺乏\n農地發展權相關移轉制度的立法授權，為了兼顧糧食安全及土地公平正義，農業權的修法完成\n之後，我們將授權中央主管機關提出全國農地的發展權移轉制度，政府可以研擬適合我國農業\n用地以及建築用地的合理調配制度，避免中央、地方各自解讀、各自論述的一個情形，因此本\n席提出國土計畫法增訂第三十二條之一條文草案，增列有關農業權補償的條文，希望增訂之後\n，讓農民的權益獲得明確的保障，也可以提高農民的收益，並提升人民從農的意願，落實國家\n糧食安全的目標，促使農業永續發展，以達到區域發展的衡平性。謝謝！","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T14:26:46.921000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:26:47.742000+08:00","text":"接下來是不是請國土署還有農業部來說明？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T14:26:48.203000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:26:48.864000+08:00","text":"先請農業部說明。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T14:26:48.864000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:27:01.956000+08:00","text":"208\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"胡次長忠一","start":"2024-12-26T14:27:01.956000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:27:02.636000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"胡次長忠一","start":"2024-12-26T14:27:02.917000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:28:42.233000+08:00","text":"事實上我們現行的區域計畫法中屬於農業用地的這些農地，在國土計畫法\n全面實施之後，被劃入農業發展地區農一到農五的話，它還是農地，仍然可以按照目前農業的\n產製儲銷來使用，它也叫做農地，所以變成國土計畫法之後，我們並沒有對於農一到農五有任\n何加強嚴格管制的狀況，因此也沒有所謂的實質損失，既然沒有加嚴也沒有實質的損失，事實\n上就沒有發生所謂合理的補償，因為現行區域計畫法之下的農地，如果變成國土計畫法裡面的\n農一到農五的話，還是可以照本來的使用，至於所受到的限制，目前區域計畫法裡規定的受限\n項目有三，第一個就是寵物生命紀念館的設施不能設在農一裡面，第二個就是砂石碎解洗選場\n不能設在農一裡，第三個就是事業廢棄物設施不能設在農一裡，事實上現在的特定農業區也是\n一樣受到這樣的限制，因此根本沒有說區域計畫法變成國土計畫法之後，我們對於土地管制有\n實質的加嚴，基本上也不會有實質的損失，所以因此去設什麼農業權方面的補償其實在理論上\n是講不通的，這是第一點。","quality":0.866},{"speaker":"胡次長忠一","start":"2024-12-26T14:28:42.233000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:28:49.938000+08:00","text":"第二點就是農地發展權移轉制度，其實我是不曉得這個的定義為何\n，是不是可以再把它說得更清楚？","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"胡次長忠一","start":"2024-12-26T14:28:50.078000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:29:02.605000+08:00","text":"因為農地本身就沒有所謂的發展權移轉，除非它是建地，否\n則農地就是做為農用的話，事實上都還是可以來做使用，沒有所謂的權利移轉制度。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T14:29:10.033000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:29:14.775000+08:00","text":"剛剛我們次長還在詢問什麼是農地發展權。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2024-12-26T14:29:15.915000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:29:17.976000+08:00","text":"他講的是農地發展權沒有定義。","quality":1},{"speaker":"胡次長忠一","start":"2024-12-26T14:29:18.917000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:29:19.797000+08:00","text":"第三項沒有這個。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T14:29:19.797000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:29:28.201000+08:00","text":"現在這個法案已經出來了，你們都沒有去溝通也沒去瞭解嗎？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"胡次長忠一","start":"2024-12-26T14:29:28.201000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:29:29.302000+08:00","text":"不是，因為這個是臨時提出的。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"胡次長忠一","start":"2024-12-26T14:29:29.542000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:29:29.542000+08:00","text":"對不起！","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T14:29:29.542000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:29:33.964000+08:00","text":"沒關係，行政單位要再加強。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T14:29:33.964000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:29:34.885000+08:00","text":"接著請國土署說明。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2024-12-26T14:29:36.689000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:30:35.601000+08:00","text":"感謝委員的指教，有關農業權的部分，當然我們其實都非常認同農業應該要有一個合\n理的機制，讓農民在生產、在生活上受到比較好的照顧，但是今天如果放在國土計畫法裡面，\n它涉及到的是全國的土地，尤其是農地本身，其實就臺灣現行的一個法令制度下，在過去大法\n官的相關解釋以及憲法的解釋裡面，大家都是以依據現況為主，若新訂的法令有導致他比現況\n還要差的環境的狀況，那自有所謂的剝奪或限制它的權益，但是其實我們在訂國土計畫的時候\n，已經充分考慮了農民在生產、生活行為上的必要，所以比起過去的區域計畫法，我們還增訂\n了比較大的一個彈性。","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2024-12-26T14:30:37.462000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:30:58.513000+08:00","text":"過去的區域計畫法，縣市政府並沒有所謂的鄉村的主動規劃權，我們在\n這一次也透過鄉村地區整體規劃，希望能夠讓縣市政府乃至於到鄉鎮公所都有權利來爭取自己\n鄉村的規劃權，目的就是希望讓他們在現行的狀況下，還能夠有對未來發展的期待。","quality":0.883},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2024-12-26T14:30:59.173000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:31:48.208000+08:00","text":"那農業發\n展權本身就是在沒有任何規劃狀況下直接賦予它一個預期的價值或預期的利益，這些不管是英\n國、美國，他們原本實行的一個概念其實大概不脫於是類似發展權移轉的概念，在美國進行發\n展權移轉的是屬於大面積的農地或需要保護的地區，過去它的交易面積其實非常大而且確實是\n為了農業生產，當時也認為這樣是一個很好的制度，但是我們臺灣農民的土地持分面積其實相\n對是非常小的，不像美國那樣可以拿出來交易的動輒是幾百公畝甚至上千公畝以上的土地。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2024-12-26T14:31:48.308000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:33:35.182000+08:00","text":"其\n次是在臺灣這樣農地比較零星而且比較小面積的狀況下去執行的話，它就會類似現在都市計畫\n209\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄\n區所執行的公共設施保留地容積移轉的概念，保留地的移轉概念在民國 78 年第一次開始提出來\n以後，其實當時的文化部跟內政部都有積極的去研擬，也有去國外參訪，去了解日本、德國的\n相關制度，但是從 85 年開始第一版執行古蹟的容積移轉到後來 88 年訂定公共設施保留地的容\n積移轉，大家在當時也預期有可能會造成土地的交易、發展權的交易不正常，也就是說對於收\n購者來講，當然是希望價低者得而不是價高者得，因為即便我們限縮到都市計畫區內，一個都\n市計畫區內也有幾百公頃的公設保留地，對建商、開發商來講，當然要找最便宜的，結果就會\n造成需要錢的人只好賤價出售，而賤價出售往往可能就是二折、三折，好一點的四、五折，後\n來就衍生了收購集團，用二、三折去收購這些容移，然後再以五、六折的價錢賣給需要的人，\n這些就導致公設保留地後來在執行不佳的狀態下還被監察院及相關的團體攻擊，這樣反而會造\n成公設保留地地主的權益受損，所以後來到 102 年才又重新啟動全國都市計畫公共設施的專案\n通盤檢討，就是希望徹底來檢討而不是放任讓他去做容積移轉的概念。","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2024-12-26T14:33:35.902000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:34:14.312000+08:00","text":"其實今天全國的農地高\n達 74 萬到 81 萬公頃，如果要跨縣市來講，價格定價跟價格的差異會造成全國普遍性的差異非\n常高，我想臺東、屏東、花蓮的農地就不可能跟臺北市、新北市、桃園市的農地相比，那價格\n者低，我想也是未來在開放這樣的交易制度一樣會面臨的問題，那會不會也造成未來的農民或\n是未來的開發者認為反正全國土地那麼多，我就是繼續收購低價的就好。","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2024-12-26T14:34:15.553000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:34:30.508000+08:00","text":"對於農民來講，一旦\n發展權買走了或是農地買走了，他以後就沒有被規劃進來的權益，因為發展權一旦定調，你賣\n掉上面的附加價值以後，你也沒有被變更的機會。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2024-12-26T14:34:31.729000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:34:41.571000+08:00","text":"這就會造成這些整體規劃的地區，以後如果\n在農地上要做整體規劃，這些地方就是零星缺口的位置。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2024-12-26T14:34:42.545000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:34:53.491000+08:00","text":"其實這些不管是對於農民的實質權益\n，或是對未來要做整體開發的縣市政府來講，都會是一個雙向的損失。","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2024-12-26T14:34:54.791000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:35:13.467000+08:00","text":"目前針對這個部分來講，我們覺得這是一個非常大的疑慮，因為國土計畫法本身也是一個作\n用法，它不是一個基本法的概念，一旦定了就變成勢必要依照這樣的作法，我們就要全國性的\n去調查，而且要邀請各縣市政府，相關的部分就會去進行。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2024-12-26T14:35:14.168000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:35:25.483000+08:00","text":"可想而知，過去大家的經驗都一而\n再、再而三會重複提，我想這對國土計畫法，在這一塊沒有徹底研究清楚之前，我們是建議不\n應該貿然這樣的提出。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2024-12-26T14:35:26.284000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:35:37.277000+08:00","text":"這樣其實反而會造成，未來在農地上又被賦予這樣的一個狀況下，對於\n臺灣現在的農地交易來講，會產生更混亂的現象，以上是國土署的意見。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T14:35:37.277000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:35:39.042000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝署長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T14:35:39.042000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:35:39.863000+08:00","text":"還有沒有哪個行政單位？","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T14:35:39.863000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:35:40.863000+08:00","text":"這位是行政院主計總處是不是？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T14:35:39.983000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:35:40.223000+08:00","text":"行政單位要表達意\n見，我們請戴專門委員群芳。","quality":0.526},{"speaker":"戴專門委員群芳","start":"2024-12-26T14:36:01.733000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:36:02.734000+08:00","text":"主席、各位委員大家好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"戴專門委員群芳","start":"2024-12-26T14:36:03.194000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:36:11.441000+08:00","text":"主計總處這邊針對許宇甄委員所提到的第三項，因為第\n三項委員有提到設立特別基金。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"戴專門委員群芳","start":"2024-12-26T14:36:12.342000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:36:25.592000+08:00","text":"當然前端農業部跟國土署署長有說，相關的有沒有損失，需要\n劃設農地有沒有損失，需要補償，這個還需要再評估。","quality":1},{"speaker":"戴專門委員群芳","start":"2024-12-26T14:36:26.333000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:36:43.219000+08:00","text":"我們這邊是提到有關這個前端，應該是\n由內政部會同農業部，再去就有沒有產生損失需予補償，先去評估，然後對財務的衝擊也要先\n去設算，前端他們設算完了之後再來決定。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"戴專門委員群芳","start":"2024-12-26T14:36:44.179000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:36:54.222000+08:00","text":"現在的條文就馬上提到要設立特別基金，依照財政\n紀律法第八條規定，設立基金必須具備國庫撥補以外新增適足之財源。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"戴專門委員群芳","start":"2024-12-26T14:36:54.942000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:37:06.504000+08:00","text":"因為現在的條文沒有規\n劃財源的部分，如果貿然的寫了設立特別基金這幾個字，可能會影響這個違反財政紀律法的規\n定。","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"戴專門委員群芳","start":"2024-12-26T14:37:07.024000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:37:13.525000+08:00","text":"所以這個條文的第三項「及設立特別基金」這幾個字，我們是建議刪除，以上，謝謝。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"戴專門委員群芳","start":"2024-12-26T14:37:13.525000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:37:14.525000+08:00","text":"210\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T14:37:13.525000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:37:13.545000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T14:37:13.665000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:37:14.645000+08:00","text":"我們請許宇甄委員，然後林淑芬委員。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T14:37:24.812000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:37:32.277000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，針對剛剛農業部胡次長提到的，農一跟農五其實都一樣，應該不會有什麼\n特別的損失。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T14:37:33.037000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:37:35.639000+08:00","text":"這樣的話，是不是我們就可以全部都不要劃農一呢？","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T14:37:36.259000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:37:42.943000+08:00","text":"就是全部都從農二開始劃，\n因為這樣的話就不會讓這些農民感受到他們會遭受這樣的損失。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T14:37:43.223000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:37:52.649000+08:00","text":"尤其是剛剛提到的，為什麼講\n農業權的部分，就是因為事實上我們現在就是限制他要農地農用，所以他以後沒有辦法開發。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T14:37:53.289000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:37:56.370000+08:00","text":"相對的，他的土地價格可能有一個預期的心理，可能會下降。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T14:37:56.810000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:38:01.072000+08:00","text":"同樣的包括農二的部分，他可能\n因為劃為農二之後，以後還有變更的機會，所以他的土地價格會上升。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T14:38:01.092000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:38:01.672000+08:00","text":"這一來一往之間，其實\n對於劃為農一，農地農用的這些農民們就覺得，他事實上也遭受了很大的損失。","quality":0.585},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T14:38:01.672000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:38:34.785000+08:00","text":"基於這樣的一個概念，我們本來是希望農業部能夠有一個配套措施，讓特別犧牲有特別的損\n失，因為我們為了負擔糧食安全，可是卻要遭遇這樣的損失，我的農地的價值可能被低估，甚\n至將來也沒辦法再移轉成他用，等到年老的時候我也沒有辦法，這塊農地沒有人耕種，我也沒\n有辦法有其他的配套措施。","quality":0.016},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T14:38:34.785000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:38:41.929000+08:00","text":"當時是因為農業部一直都不提出來，所以我們今天提出一個農業權\n的概念，就是希望針對這樣的損失，你們可以用什麼樣的方式？","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T14:38:42.349000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:38:50.213000+08:00","text":"那我在法律裡也沒有定出應該\n一定要怎麼做，而是授權主管機關去針對相關的配套措施，研擬出一個方案。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T14:38:51.894000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:39:05.969000+08:00","text":"其實這個部分，我覺得農業部不該一開始就講這個根本不合理或怎麼樣，我覺得應該是要先\n研究一下，了解農民真正的需求以及造成什麼樣的損失，才來提出相關的配套或大家可以來研\n討，我覺得這才是重點，以上。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"胡次長忠一","start":"2024-12-26T14:39:08.118000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:39:12.423000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝，謝謝許委員。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"胡次長忠一","start":"2024-12-26T14:39:12.643000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:39:24.836000+08:00","text":"許委員所講的非常正確，事實上我們農一到農五裡面的農地\n都是農用，並沒有說農一這個地，農二或者是農五那個就不做農用，其實跟這個沒有關係。","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"胡次長忠一","start":"2024-12-26T14:39:24.836000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:39:34.364000+08:00","text":"我\n們最主要把它劃設農一到農五，原因就是農一的話是 25 公頃，集中 25 公頃，其中有 80%的農\n地是作為農用。","quality":1},{"speaker":"胡次長忠一","start":"2024-12-26T14:39:35.024000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:39:42.508000+08:00","text":"那如果不符合集中 25 公頃、80%以上做農用的話，那個叫做農二，但是在平地\n地區。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"胡次長忠一","start":"2024-12-26T14:39:42.668000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:39:46.790000+08:00","text":"接下來的農三是山坡地，農四是鄉村區，農五是都市計畫區。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T14:39:47.511000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:39:56.595000+08:00","text":"次長，這個部分我想大家都知道，資料都有，所以我剛只是針對農一的部分，那這個\n部分的話，以後農一可以再做變更嗎？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T14:39:56.595000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:39:57.336000+08:00","text":"可以不做農用嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"胡次長忠一","start":"2024-12-26T14:39:58.316000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:40:13.543000+08:00","text":"剛才我所講的就是，現在的特定農業區裡面的限制，農一以後也會受到這樣的限制，\n是一樣的，但是我們會劃農一到農五，是在我們堆疊式的補貼的時候，我們會給農一更好的補\n貼，是用這種方式來補貼他的。","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T14:40:14.663000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:40:15.464000+08:00","text":"請問農一的補貼是什麼？","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T14:40:15.464000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:40:16.644000+08:00","text":"好像大家都還沒有配套措施出來。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"胡次長忠一","start":"2024-12-26T14:40:18.005000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:40:26.054000+08:00","text":"我們都已經訂了，農三是山坡地，山坡地我們有山坡地的做法。","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T14:40:26.415000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:40:26.555000+08:00","text":"請問補貼是多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"胡次長忠一","start":"2024-12-26T14:40:26.595000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:40:43.011000+08:00","text":"補貼的話，其實在農一，如果說整體從農一到農五，共通的來講的話，農一的話可以\n到十四萬五千多，一年大概有十四萬五千多的相關……","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T14:40:43.011000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:40:44.592000+08:00","text":"您說的是 1 公頃嗎？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"胡次長忠一","start":"2024-12-26T14:40:44.592000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:40:56.476000+08:00","text":"對，我們的相關政策給他的補貼，包括稅制的優惠，還有包括我們給他的轉作、契作\n211\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄\n或者是我們給他的對地綠色環境給付等等。","quality":0.682},{"speaker":"胡次長忠一","start":"2024-12-26T14:40:57.237000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:41:03.456000+08:00","text":"這些加起來，農一可以得到的利益比農二、農三還\n要高。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T14:41:04.076000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:41:07.478000+08:00","text":"但是他以後就不能作為其他的移轉，是嗎？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"胡次長忠一","start":"2024-12-26T14:41:07.478000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:41:09.619000+08:00","text":"可以，移轉 5 年內可以……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T14:41:09.779000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:41:11.100000+08:00","text":"5 年內只是檢討嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T14:41:11.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:41:12.720000+08:00","text":"5 年一次的檢討嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"董次長建宏","start":"2024-12-26T14:41:12.720000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:41:22.646000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，農一、農二、農三、農四，這相關的農業用地，只要提出計畫、需求，\n那麼我們就根據計畫、需求做審定之後，他就可以改變。","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T14:41:22.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:41:23.646000+08:00","text":"所以是 5 年對不對？","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"董次長建宏","start":"2024-12-26T14:41:22.866000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:41:32.391000+08:00","text":"我們的署長剛才所提到的，就是說所有的計畫，所有的農地在規劃的時候，為什麼我\n們不同意劃設什麼農地發展權？","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"董次長建宏","start":"2024-12-26T14:41:32.391000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:41:46.726000+08:00","text":"是因為你一旦劃設農地發展權，他被賣掉之後，他在未來任何\n的計畫擬定的過程裡面，這塊地都不能被用，因為他的權利已經賣出了，所以他不得變更，這\n才是真正判農地死刑。","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"董次長建宏","start":"2024-12-26T14:41:47.627000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:42:08.620000+08:00","text":"你如果用 TDR，就是把農地判死刑，而在美國的案例裡面，他們之所以\n要用這樣，是因為有一群人，他就是堅持要做農，所以在美國所謂的農業權，指的是我想從事\n農業的權利，你不得干預我，而不是說我們要來補助或補貼，這是不一樣的概念。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T14:42:09.821000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:42:30.727000+08:00","text":"次長，我想這個部分，當然不同的國家有不同的概念的陳述，但是這個部分，我想剛\n剛我也表達得很清楚，就是說針對這個部分，我們主要是針對農一的農地農用，雖然你們剛剛\n一直講 5 年內，5 年可以提出一次，但就不是像現在這樣子，所以為什麼剛剛講有一些可能會開\n始申請，可能要做農地移轉，就是因為我現在作為農地農用，我只有感受到我將來就是會有很\n大的損失。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T14:42:30.867000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:42:53.879000+08:00","text":"所以說為什麼希望農業部能夠有一個相關的配套措施，讓這些農民、尤其劃設為農\n一的農民，他們能夠感受到政府對他們的特別犧牲能夠有特別的補償，主要的目的是這樣。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T14:42:54.039000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:43:09.125000+08:00","text":"至於相關的配套措施，其實剛剛講的這個配套措施，我們到現在也還沒看到，所謂的 1 公頃\n14.5 萬，到底是什麼樣的詳細的狀況，好像也說不清楚，而且就是每一公頃只要我提出申請就\n可以有 14.5 萬嗎？","quality":0.924},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T14:43:09.125000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:43:10.065000+08:00","text":"我相信也不是。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T14:43:10.365000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:43:22.090000+08:00","text":"還有很多的相關問題，所以這個部分主要是這樣，那要不然\n的話，其實對於國土計畫法來說，每個縣市，我相信大家都會願意針對國土計畫法來上路。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T14:43:22.791000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:43:26.754000+08:00","text":"目\n前的問題就是，這些問題都還沒有配套措施，在還沒解決之前是不是要倉促的上路？","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T14:43:26.834000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:43:27.314000+08:00","text":"我覺得這\n是現在真正的問題癥結所在。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"董次長建宏","start":"2024-12-26T14:43:27.494000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:43:51.391000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員的指教，我想還是跟委員們做一個說明，在目前區計法的狀態之下，事實上\n農地的變更程序跟權利，其實反而比國土計畫更複雜，因為個案變更是要有相關的義務或者有\n些計畫、有些毗鄰等等的狀況。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"董次長建宏","start":"2024-12-26T14:43:51.391000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:43:55.433000+08:00","text":"你如果沒有這些狀況，其實農地就是農地，你不能夠做任何的\n變更使用。","quality":1},{"speaker":"董次長建宏","start":"2024-12-26T14:43:56.073000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:44:04.617000+08:00","text":"但是在國土計畫法的狀況之下，每個縣市每一段時間就可以進行檢討，而且是全部\n的檢討，就跟我們都市計畫通盤檢討一樣。","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"董次長建宏","start":"2024-12-26T14:44:04.737000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:44:13.602000+08:00","text":"他有發展的需求，他有規劃的需求，他有未來進一\n步不同的發展的想像的時候，它就可以被拿出來討論、拿出來使用。","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"董次長建宏","start":"2024-12-26T14:44:14.402000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:44:28.517000+08:00","text":"目前就現階段來講，我們從上一任的農業部陳吉仲部長，到現在的陳駿季部長，他們都同意\n農地上產、製、儲、銷都可以設立，突破了過去在區計裡面的一些規範。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"董次長建宏","start":"2024-12-26T14:44:28.517000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:44:43.996000+08:00","text":"區計的規範裡面，農\n地還不見得能夠做產、製、儲、銷，我們現在為了達到綠色經濟的狀態，所以許多的小型農產\n212\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄\n加工，也可以在國土計畫法範圍之內，我們透過計畫允許在地的產、製、儲、銷都發展。","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"董次長建宏","start":"2024-12-26T14:44:44.457000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:44:49.203000+08:00","text":"所以\n農業其實沒有什麼特別犧牲，它就是一個產業，它是一個發展。","quality":1},{"speaker":"董次長建宏","start":"2024-12-26T14:44:49.904000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:44:57.736000+08:00","text":"至於委員提到的相關的農業補\n貼，我是不是可以請胡次長說明？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"胡次長忠一","start":"2024-12-26T14:44:57.736000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:44:58.696000+08:00","text":"是，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"胡次長忠一","start":"2024-12-26T14:44:58.696000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:45:11.381000+08:00","text":"因為我們現在農一到農五，事實上各縣市政府所劃出來總共大概有 79 萬\n公頃，農一跟農二有五十幾萬公頃，其實這個是符合目前中央政府對於整個農地的需求。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"胡次長忠一","start":"2024-12-26T14:45:11.921000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:45:30.596000+08:00","text":"那農\n一到農五的話，我們現在就是按照剛才跟委員報告過的，農一因為他所做的有受到三個限制，\n就是剛剛所講的這個寵物的生命紀念館，還有砂石業、事業廢棄物等等這三種限制。","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"胡次長忠一","start":"2024-12-26T14:45:32.138000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:45:49.541000+08:00","text":"農一是最\n優良的農地，所以我們以後這分成五類，對於平地農一的補助會比較高，因此以後一定會有農\n民到縣市政府要求說把他劃到農一，因為事實上他們可能誤解，誤解農一可能限制比較多。","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"胡次長忠一","start":"2024-12-26T14:45:50.361000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:45:57.565000+08:00","text":"其\n實剛才所講的這些跟農業無關的這些廢棄物或砂石廠，這根本跟一般農民是無關的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T14:45:57.785000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:46:06.027000+08:00","text":"次長，這一部法立法到現在已經 8 年了，給你們 8 年的時間去跟農民溝通，你說他們\n還有誤解的話，那問題在哪裡？","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"胡次長忠一","start":"2024-12-26T14:46:06.027000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:46:08.128000+08:00","text":"絕大部分都沒有，因為一開始的時候就……","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T14:46:08.608000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:46:09.688000+08:00","text":"為什麼不去溝通呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"胡次長忠一","start":"2024-12-26T14:46:10.268000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:46:11.628000+08:00","text":"絕大部分沒有，因為有少部分說什麼會……","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T14:46:11.628000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:46:12.829000+08:00","text":"不是，剛剛次長提到的這個問題……","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"胡次長忠一","start":"2024-12-26T14:46:18.590000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:46:23.497000+08:00","text":"不是，因為很多人都講農一被劃進去就變成農奴，所以我們去解釋，解釋將近 160 場\n……","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T14:46:23.817000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:46:25.579000+08:00","text":"不是，其實次長我相信，如果像你剛講的那樣的話，對農民有這麼多的好處，你覺得\n農民是頭殼壞掉，為什麼他們要反對？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T14:46:25.579000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:46:29.794500+08:00","text":"就是因為還是有很多他們有疑慮的地方，這個疑慮的地\n方就是因為，我現在看不到我的犧牲有什麼賠償。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T14:46:29.794500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:46:34.010000+08:00","text":"剛剛雖然講到，我可以變更，可是是 5 年才\n一次，跟現在不一樣，現在區域計畫法是隨時都可以喔。","quality":0.026},{"speaker":"胡次長忠一","start":"2024-12-26T14:46:34.010000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:46:34.251000+08:00","text":"應該是五年內。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T14:46:51.369000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:46:52.009000+08:00","text":"對，五年內嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T14:46:52.509000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:47:05.674000+08:00","text":"那就變成時間上對可不可以變更都不知道，那我就想如果是這樣的話\n，照剛剛次長的講法，說實在如果是農民，為了安全起見，我拜託你幫我劃成農二，我至少將\n來還有一個變更的機會。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T14:47:05.674000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:47:18.081000+08:00","text":"但農一的話，我剛剛不是說判死刑，而是覺得農一既然只能作為農地\n農用，剛剛我也講了，你對於農地的這個價值，有可能會被低估。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T14:47:18.281000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:47:27.328000+08:00","text":"再來就是說我們的農二，比\n如說我現在劃為農二，未來我的這個土地可能可以移轉，所以我的農地價值會變高。","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T14:47:28.008000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:47:43.737000+08:00","text":"這樣一來\n一往之間，當然我們的農民都會感受到我辛苦耕種，現在你說一公頃 14.5 萬，我現在還不如把\n這些農地都租給太陽能光電業者，一年就有 40 萬，我什麼都不必做就有 40 萬，所以是這樣的\n一個概念。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T14:47:44.578000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:47:59.050000+08:00","text":"我們如果真的希望農民來負擔糧食安全，那是不是該給他們一些相關的補償，讓他\n們覺得作為農民，來為國家負擔糧食安全，那是針對國家的一個幫助，所以我們願意。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T14:47:59.430000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:48:05.014000+08:00","text":"我覺得\n應該是這樣子，而不是對他們說都沒有損失，那你想農民為什麼要反對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T14:48:05.014000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:48:07.096000+08:00","text":"為什麼這麼多朝野的\n立委共同提出要展延？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T14:48:07.757000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:48:08.557000+08:00","text":"其實就是有很大的問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T14:48:08.557000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:48:09.981000+08:00","text":"213\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T14:48:09.981000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:48:14.185000+08:00","text":"好，次長，再加強溝通、再加強宣導。是。","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T14:48:14.185000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:48:15.185000+08:00","text":"你如果不會解釋，回去想一想再來解釋。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T14:48:14.706000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:48:16.388000+08:00","text":"我有聽到你說農民還有很多的誤解，沒關係我們現在聽委員講。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T14:48:16.388000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:48:17.388000+08:00","text":"請林淑芬委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T14:48:16.388000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:48:20.011000+08:00","text":"你如果不會解釋，回去想一想再來解釋，解釋了半天人家還聽不懂，這就是你們的問\n題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T14:48:20.011000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:48:20.332000+08:00","text":"好，換我講一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T14:48:31.463000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:48:33.384000+08:00","text":"現在委員所爭執的是農地要維持農用，犧牲他們，可是現在沒有國土計畫法，農地還是要農\n用啊！","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T14:48:33.584000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:48:34.444000+08:00","text":"現在區域計畫法的概念，農地可以不農用嗎？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T14:48:34.444000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:48:49.529000+08:00","text":"不行耶，然後農地沒有農用，那他可以個\n案變更。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T14:48:49.629000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:48:51.529000+08:00","text":"次長剛才已經講了，內政部次長剛剛講農地的個案變更，他綁很多程序，要涉及計劃\n，所以他要涉及變更權利，他是很複雜的。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T14:48:51.549000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:49:08.956000+08:00","text":"所以現在在買賣農地，個案去變更的是有本事的、\n有特權的、有能力的，不是一般農民都可以個案變更。","quality":0.78},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T14:49:09.517000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:49:15.325000+08:00","text":"區域計畫法沒有國土計畫法，現在的個\n案變更都是靠著特權、有能力的人、大財團、大產業、大特權的人，才有能力去個案變更。","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T14:49:15.505000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:49:28.959000+08:00","text":"現在地方都跟我陳情，因為我們的鄉親，我三重、蘆洲、五股的選民很多都來自雲林。","quality":0.758},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T14:49:29.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:49:31.180000+08:00","text":"他問\n我一件事，他說：委員，我向你請教，我的農地在雲林，他們都說從現在起農地不能賣了，這\n是真的嗎？","quality":0.683},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T14:49:31.180000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:49:38.001000+08:00","text":"怎麼可能農地不能買賣？","quality":0.1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T14:49:38.001000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:49:38.641000+08:00","text":"農地不能移轉了，他說：縣政府就是這樣說。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T14:49:38.641000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:49:40.483000+08:00","text":"我說：國土\n計畫法以後農地一樣可以買賣，一樣可以移轉，一樣可以變更，一樣可以蓋農舍，統統都沒有\n改變。","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T14:49:40.483000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:49:42.444000+08:00","text":"只是他現在不能夠個案變更，沒有方便那些特權的、大財團的、有能力的人個案變更。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T14:50:04.037000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:50:07.519000+08:00","text":"但是對一個沒有能力的小農民來講，如果未來地方發展需求，他計劃變更，我們不用靠特權，\n也不用靠財團。","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T14:50:07.519000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:50:10.400000+08:00","text":"現在如果需要整片，他變更的是整片的土地，大家跟進，大家都可以認為需要\n整片，大家一起變更，而不是有能力的人自己變更，自己「好康」自己。","quality":0.965},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T14:50:10.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:50:30.850000+08:00","text":"唯一的差別就是不能\n夠個案變更，所以現在為什麼要放這個假消息、假風聲，說農地不能買賣？","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T14:50:30.870000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:50:31.971000+08:00","text":"說國土計畫法通過\n以後，農地不能買賣，不能夠移轉？","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T14:50:31.971000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:50:33.231000+08:00","text":"這一個假消息是因為即將要有詐騙集團來了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T14:50:33.291000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:50:33.831000+08:00","text":"我們講農業權，什麼是農業權？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T14:50:33.831000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:51:07.150000+08:00","text":"我們有經驗，我有經驗，我新北市，新北市在八里臺北港這\n個專區、特區的土地重劃裡面，新北市政府，我們因為抗爭，那個阿嬤說，我堅持我的土地，\n我不要變成專區，我不要變成工業區，我不要變成住宅區，我就是要務農，所以大家抗爭很久\n，終於把那個阿嬤的農地保留下來，他要務農，這個才叫做農業權。","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T14:51:20.363000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:51:22.524000+08:00","text":"而你們掮客要的不是農業\n權，是農地移轉權啦！","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T14:51:22.604000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:51:23.565000+08:00","text":"我跟你講，農民搞不清楚，以為不能夠買賣了，我趕快賣給掮客。","quality":0.76},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T14:51:23.745000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:51:26.347000+08:00","text":"掮客\n廉價收購大量的土地，然後打折，大家趁這個機會趕快把農民一片片的土地買起來。","quality":0.861},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T14:51:40.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:51:41.878000+08:00","text":"然後讓大\n家不知道、資訊不對等、專業能力不對等，都買起來之後，他再去大炒地皮，大賺特賺。","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T14:51:51.882000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:51:56.325000+08:00","text":"這個\n是有陰謀的，這個裡面不要假借農民，也不要假借農業權三個字。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T14:51:57.346000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:52:03.050000+08:00","text":"這個是炒土地的農地移轉權\n的制度，藉由誆騙、藉由資訊不對等，詐騙農民。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T14:52:03.090000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:52:20.502000+08:00","text":"今天我要再跟大家講，國土計畫法施行以後，可以蓋農舍、可以買賣、可以移轉、可以變更\n，不用再讓大財團、有能力的人，只有他們有個案變更的能力。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T14:52:21.423000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:52:22.924000+08:00","text":"所以現在再來空中畫大餅，然\n後再來假裝包裝了一個農業權的概念，什麼農地判死刑，那根本不是那樣子，這是詐騙！","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T14:52:22.924000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:52:24.225000+08:00","text":"地方\n政府都講不實，剛才還一直在講，不能移轉，不能買賣。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T14:52:24.225000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:52:24.666000+08:00","text":"胡說八道，睜眼說瞎話，真的是詐騙\n214\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄\n農民！","quality":0.516},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T14:52:43.084000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:52:46.746000+08:00","text":"好，是不是第三十二條之一，我們也保留？","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T14:52:49.127000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:52:57.030000+08:00","text":"審查到這邊，我們協商的結論：國土計畫法修正草案第七條、第八條、第二十三條、增訂的\n第三十二條之一、第三十五條、第四十條及第四十五條，均保留送院長協商。","quality":0.723},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T14:52:57.370000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T14:52:59.011000+08:00","text":"我們今天開會到這邊，現在散會，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T14:52:59.511000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:53:00.653857+08:00","text":"散會（14 時 53 分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T14:53:00.953857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:53:03.239571+08:00","text":"我們現在開始開會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T14:53:03.539571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:53:20.396714+08:00","text":"今天協商的是選罷法，大家可以參考桌上的資料，我們只要是在平和的環境下，我們保障每\n一位委員的發言權利，所以現在請各位委員表達意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T14:53:20.696714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:53:22.696714+08:00","text":"好，請李柏毅委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-12-26T14:53:22.996714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:53:41.282429+08:00","text":"主席，12 月 16 日非常平和，我看到你在主持的時候平和得不得了，底下坐了 8 個國\n民黨的委員，你後面站了 4 個，旁邊又坐了 2 個，非常的平和，開會時間也非常的平和，開會","quality":0.016},{"speaker":"時間","start":"2024-12-26T14:53:41.582429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:53:46.439571+08:00","text":"法案審議約 1 分鐘──61 秒；會議時間：3 分鐘，哇！","quality":0},{"speaker":"時間","start":"2024-12-26T14:53:46.739571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:53:49.596714+08:00","text":"非常的平和，如主席所講。","quality":0},{"speaker":"時間","start":"2024-12-26T14:53:49.896714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:53:57.896714+08:00","text":"今天\n我們也很平和，我們也希望表達那一天選舉罷免法的這些狀況。","quality":0},{"speaker":"時間","start":"2024-12-26T14:53:58.196714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:54:16.196714+08:00","text":"我們今天這個平和的狀況跟當\n天平和的狀況也一樣啊，民進黨立委還是可以表達意見，我們背負著選民的請託，所以你說的\n平和，我就不知道是什麼原因。","quality":0},{"speaker":"時間","start":"2024-12-26T14:54:16.496714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:54:20.211000+08:00","text":"你的平和是不是要把門堵起來？","quality":0},{"speaker":"時間","start":"2024-12-26T14:54:20.511000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:54:28.796714+08:00","text":"你的平和是不是要派所有國民黨委員不讓民進黨委員進來才\n叫平和？","quality":0},{"speaker":"時間","start":"2024-12-26T14:54:29.096714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:54:32.239571+08:00","text":"這個不是平和，這個叫威權！","quality":0},{"speaker":"時間","start":"2024-12-26T14:54:32.539571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:54:42.253857+08:00","text":"我們怎麼知道中國人大在舉手的過程裡面，如果沒有舉\n手，在外面會碰到什麼狀況？","quality":0.029},{"speaker":"時間","start":"2024-12-26T14:54:42.553857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:55:03.696714+08:00","text":"這個表面的平和的確是確實的獨裁，所以主席，你要用這種平和\n的方式才可以表達意見，要看你的骨子裡是平和，還是你要的只是表面的平和，而不讓真正的\n聲音可以在會議室表達。","quality":0},{"speaker":"時間","start":"2024-12-26T14:55:03.996714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:55:31.425286+08:00","text":"如果今天這一種協商只是立法院職權行使法裡面，對於委員會之後還\n有協商的過程，然後接下來再經過黨團協商，我跟你說，這種協商也是這種獨裁式、威權式的\n過程啦，你有沒有看到獨裁國家在國會裡面，大家鼓掌來歡迎習近平主席？","quality":0},{"speaker":"時間","start":"2024-12-26T14:55:31.725286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:55:39.153857+08:00","text":"你有沒有看過獨裁\n國家在他們的議事廳裡面來歡迎普丁總統？","quality":0},{"speaker":"時間","start":"2024-12-26T14:55:39.453857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:55:46.311000+08:00","text":"難道這種威權式的、程序式的這種樣式才是主席你\n要的嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"時間","start":"2024-12-26T14:55:46.611000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:55:49.182429+08:00","text":"我們要的不是這樣啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"時間","start":"2024-12-26T14:55:49.482429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:55:54.625286+08:00","text":"你具體主張，你們認為這個罷免有什麼問題？","quality":0},{"speaker":"時間","start":"2024-12-26T14:55:54.925286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:56:25.211000+08:00","text":"我來具體講好了\n216\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄\n，從韓國瑜院長擔任立委的時候遇到罷免之後，1993 年、1994 年之後，國民黨就在立法院提議\n修改選罷法，把選罷法修成沒有辦法罷免，所以到了 2016 年，黃國昌在時代力量修改選舉罷免\n法之後，連續 7 年才有 7 場的罷免，很多嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"時間","start":"2024-12-26T14:56:25.511000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:56:28.082429+08:00","text":"不多啊，罷免掉幾個人？","quality":0},{"speaker":"時間","start":"2024-12-26T14:56:28.382429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:56:38.953857+08:00","text":"3 個人，第一個是一個直\n轄市議員，第二個是一個立法委員，然後還有一個直轄市市長，很多嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"時間","start":"2024-12-26T14:56:39.253857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:56:41.539571+08:00","text":"有所謂的濫罷免嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"時間","start":"2024-12-26T14:56:41.839571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:56:42.839571+08:00","text":"沒有啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"時間","start":"2024-12-26T14:56:43.139571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:57:02.282429+08:00","text":"你先在罷免連署的部分提高門檻，要人民繳交身分證，然後今天要協商的其中一個案子裡面\n就是罷免同意票要比當選票數多一，你要用平和的方式讓我們表達嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"時間","start":"2024-12-26T14:57:02.582429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:57:12.011000+08:00","text":"還是 12 月 16 號這場會\n議，其實以我來講，12 月 16 日這場會議我沒有簽到名，我不可能平和啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"時間","start":"2024-12-26T14:57:12.311000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:57:16.882429+08:00","text":"我有來，你不讓我們\n進來，我們怎麼平和？","quality":0},{"speaker":"時間","start":"2024-12-26T14:57:17.182429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:57:30.325286+08:00","text":"12 月 16 號這場會議我們有來耶，議事錄裡面沒有我們耶，那是不是應該\n做一個處理，今天這一場協商的會議才算數啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"時間","start":"2024-12-26T14:57:30.625286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:57:36.053857+08:00","text":"你剛剛講平和，我受不了，所以我率先發言，\n謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T14:57:36.353857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:57:39.211000+08:00","text":"沒關係，本席也表達一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T14:57:39.511000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:57:55.225286+08:00","text":"第一個，本席知道、我記得我這個會期擔任召委，我有很多次會\n議都被霸占主席臺，沒辦法順利開會，但是這個會期只要是民進黨當召委……","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-12-26T14:57:55.525286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:57:59.811000+08:00","text":"這個會期是預算會期，你預算審了沒？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-12-26T14:58:00.111000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:58:02.396714+08:00","text":"審到現在審完了沒？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-12-26T14:58:02.696714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:58:03.696714+08:00","text":"受不了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-12-26T14:58:03.996714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:58:05.425286+08:00","text":"對不起，主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T14:58:05.725286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:58:09.153857+08:00","text":"沒關係、沒關係，忍功要再加強。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-12-26T14:58:09.453857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:58:11.168143+08:00","text":"受不了、受不了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-12-26T14:58:11.468143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:58:15.468143+08:00","text":"整個立法院的委員會就剩你了啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T14:58:15.768143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:58:33.196714+08:00","text":"本席擔任召委，在內政委員會擔任召委，多次開會時被霸占主席臺或是干擾議事，第一次排\n選罷法的時候也是霸占主席臺，不給開會，所以什麼是威權？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T14:58:33.496714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:58:34.925286+08:00","text":"什麼是專制？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T14:58:35.225286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:59:18.939571+08:00","text":"只要不合某些政黨\n的意思的，你就不讓開會，包含上個禮拜五破壞我們的院會，所以民主的制度，當然我們尊重\n每一個人發言的權利，當然也讓大家看到今天我們要好好的開會，但是當家鬧事，我們也不知\n道全民大家的看法究竟如何，所以至少在這個會期的內政委員會，只要是張宏陸召委召開會議\n的時候，國民黨團從來沒有霸占主席臺不讓他開會，我們尊重每一次的會議……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T14:59:19.239571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:59:20.382429+08:00","text":"……在審預算……","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T14:59:20.682429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:59:22.682429+08:00","text":"請尊重一下召委！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T14:59:22.982429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:59:32.411000+08:00","text":"我好幾次排審預算案也是被阻擋，所以沒關係，今天是協商會議，讓大家暢所欲言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T14:59:32.711000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:59:36.139571+08:00","text":"接下來我們請蔡書記長易餘。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T14:59:36.439571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:59:52.153857+08:00","text":"主席，你今天讓大家暢所欲言是沒有意義的，因為今天看起來，如果是協商，有一個\n政黨沒有到，所以今天變得沒辦法有一個實質的協商。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T14:59:52.453857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:00:17.025286+08:00","text":"那我們還是要回到選罷法，因為主席你\n排了這樣的一個案，事實上，你所面對的並不是只有現在許宇甄，也就是國民黨現在要通過的\n選票加一，就是要大於當選票數的這個選罷法的規定，再把它變得更加的困難。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:00:17.325286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:00:34.753857+08:00","text":"事實上，涉及\n到的條文還包括民調可以發布的時間，過去是 10 天，你把它縮短到 3 天，而且還涉及到，我們\n看到強制驗票要從千分之三把它放寬到千分之十。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:00:35.053857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:01:05.053857+08:00","text":"這些都是涉及選舉制度很大的改變，主席，\n選舉對你來說，你也是老江湖了，你也知道這些制度的改變事實上是需要大家充分的溝通，甚\n217\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄\n至要召開公聽會，而我們在委員會的時候跟你說至少要開個公聽會，你也是不同意啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:01:05.353857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:01:39.639571+08:00","text":"因為這\n涉及到的是，除了我們在這裡討論的以外，你現在要改變這樣的制度，而且這是過去大家都已\n經習以為常，大家百姓都習慣民調的部分就是 10 天，你現在要把它改成 3 天，那這一次的選舉\n正好又發生有人散布假民調，這個假民調後來被查到它的後面可能有中國的色彩，這些事情都\n不重要嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:01:39.939571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:01:40.939571+08:00","text":"很重要。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:01:41.239571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:02:01.811000+08:00","text":"所以我們要跟主席說的是，你在 12 月 16 日不讓我們進來，你們就整個擋在外面不讓\n我們進來討論，然後你們就讓它過了，你們通過的這些法案難道真的不需要大家好好地講一下\n嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:02:02.111000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:02:11.253857+08:00","text":"再者，在上禮拜五，國民黨的多數表決，你們選罷法也已經過了程序的加嚴了啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:02:11.553857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:02:23.553857+08:00","text":"既然已經\n過了程序的加嚴，那現在還有必要這麼急，把第二道加嚴的程序也趕在我們這個會期通過嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:02:23.853857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:02:26.425286+08:00","text":"應該是沒有那麼趕啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:02:26.725286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:02:37.296714+08:00","text":"因為你們已經有一個完成三讀了，所以基本上我覺得大家沒有必要那麼\n著急在此時此刻。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:02:37.596714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:02:52.168143+08:00","text":"主席，明明在 12 月 16 日有那麼大的爭議，現在都沒有一個妥善的處理方式，我想主席你不\n可能覺得說開會……議事杯葛人人都會有啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:02:52.468143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:03:23.896714+08:00","text":"國民黨也有占主席臺過，民進黨也會占主席臺，\n但是過去，從以前到現在所有占主席臺都是為了要杯葛，讓議事延緩，讓議事沒有辦法進行，\n從來沒有一次占主席臺是要把議事加速進行，讓反對的聲音沒辦法進來，然後我把程序加速，1\n分鐘讓它過，3 分鐘喊散會，沒有這樣的嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:03:24.196714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:03:48.482429+08:00","text":"所以既然有這麼大的瑕疵在這邊，主席如果你也同\n意，既然你們已經在程序加嚴這一關，在上禮拜五你們完成三讀了，你現在又何必要趕著再過\n另外一包選罷法，然後用雙重的鳥籠把罷免權真的沒收到沒有？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:03:48.782429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:04:02.782429+08:00","text":"我覺得你們要不要考慮看看，我們補正瑕疵，12 月 16 日那不是占主席臺，主席，你不要說占\n主席臺，現在立法院是國民黨當家啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:04:03.082429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:04:13.368143+08:00","text":"你們是多數，院長是韓國瑜，過去民進黨在立法院多數\n的時候，國民黨也是有占主席臺啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:04:13.668143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:04:28.811000+08:00","text":"但是占主席臺的用意就是我剛才說的，讓程序慢一點，儘\n量讓程序更慢一點，讓它討論得更完整，沒有人占主席臺是為了開快車啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:04:29.111000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:04:31.396714+08:00","text":"主席，我具體建議啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:04:31.696714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:04:35.411000+08:00","text":"我具體建議，看主席能不能接納？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:04:35.711000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:04:53.139571+08:00","text":"既然 12 月 16 日有這麼多的瑕疵，\n反正今天沒有 3 個政黨在，今天這個協商看起來是沒有辦法做有效的協商，主席，你有沒有辦\n法考慮把這案退回程序委員會？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:04:53.439571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:05:19.725286+08:00","text":"我們內政委員會補正瑕疵，大家把這些事情討論好，因為這個\n條文絕對不是只有罷免票要大於當選票這樣一個條文而已，還有很多其他的選罷法條文，而且\n這些條文都影響到我們的選舉權，整個制度的改變需要更大的討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:05:20.025286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:05:41.168143+08:00","text":"主席，我覺得你再評估一\n下，這樣對你主持議事，我覺得你沒有必要留下 12 月 16 日，以後大家都會說這是一個破天荒\n的占主席臺把不同的意見卡在門外，讓他不能進來，我覺得這樣不好啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:05:41.468143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:05:43.182429+08:00","text":"對你也不好啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:05:43.482429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:05:44.482429+08:00","text":"好不\n好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:05:44.782429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:05:46.496714+08:00","text":"主席考慮看看。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:05:46.796714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:05:49.939571+08:00","text":"謝謝蔡書記長易餘的發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:05:50.239571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:06:19.953857+08:00","text":"請各位委員要注意，我們排法案是每個委員提案的權利，主席只是安排法案以及按照議事規\n則來主持，最終一切都還是民主程序，就是少數服從多數、多數尊重少數，絕對不是主席說了\n218\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄\n算，絕對不是主席說了算，所以這個……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:06:20.253857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:06:23.682429+08:00","text":"對，但是少數沒有辦法進來啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:06:23.982429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:06:25.696714+08:00","text":"再來就是 12 月 16 日……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:06:25.996714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:06:27.996714+08:00","text":"少數沒辦法進來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:06:28.296714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:06:39.153857+08:00","text":"12 月 16 日的情況我沒有辦法跟你們解釋，因為我早早地坐在裡面，我真的不知道外面發生\n什麼事。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:06:39.453857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:06:40.882429+08:00","text":"怎麼可能啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:06:41.182429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:06:45.182429+08:00","text":"你當主席，你不知道發生什麼事情？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:06:45.482429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:06:46.482429+08:00","text":"你沒有……","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:06:46.782429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:06:52.782429+08:00","text":"主席，怎麼可能你在這邊不知道外面發生什麼事情？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:06:53.082429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:06:55.939571+08:00","text":"只有國民黨的立委進來……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:06:56.239571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:06:58.811000+08:00","text":"你不會覺得很奇怪嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:06:59.111000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:07:03.111000+08:00","text":"沒有任何的官員，沒有任何的媒體……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:07:03.411000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:07:06.268143+08:00","text":"我們來開會，沒有人進來……","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:07:06.568143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:07:09.139571+08:00","text":"你不會覺得很奇怪嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:07:09.439571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:07:12.296714+08:00","text":"你怎麼會說你坐在這邊……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:07:12.596714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:07:14.025286+08:00","text":"睜眼說瞎話！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:07:14.325286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:07:18.896714+08:00","text":"你真的不知道發生什麼事情，不可能嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:07:19.196714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:07:21.482429+08:00","text":"尊重一下主席好嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:07:21.782429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:07:23.782429+08:00","text":"少數進不來，怎麼……","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:07:24.082429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:07:26.368143+08:00","text":"尊重一下主席。對啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:07:26.668143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:07:30.096714+08:00","text":"少數根本沒有發言的機會啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:07:30.396714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:07:36.682429+08:00","text":"現在你們進不進得來，沒有需要在這裡對我說，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:07:36.982429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:07:39.839571+08:00","text":"我沒有阻擋你們，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:07:40.139571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:07:41.282429+08:00","text":"就這樣\n子。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:07:41.582429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:07:44.439571+08:00","text":"因為你是那一天的主席！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:07:44.739571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:07:47.311000+08:00","text":"你們那一天有圍著啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:07:47.611000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:07:51.611000+08:00","text":"你是那一天的主席，當然對你說啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:07:51.911000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:07:55.625286+08:00","text":"麻煩尊重一下主席的發言好嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:07:55.925286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:08:00.782429+08:00","text":"你沒有擋我們，你們這些人都在擋我們啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:08:01.082429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:08:05.082429+08:00","text":"所有國民黨的立委都在擋我們啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:08:05.382429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:08:07.096714+08:00","text":"主席，我要抗議！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:08:07.396714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:08:11.682429+08:00","text":"219\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:08:11.982429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:08:15.125286+08:00","text":"主席當場是在主席臺上啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:08:15.425286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:08:23.996714+08:00","text":"怎麼會說你在這邊，然後你不知道 16 日發生什麼事情，你不會覺得很奇怪嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:08:24.296714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:08:27.725286+08:00","text":"當天\n只有國民黨的立委進來……","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:08:28.025286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:08:32.311000+08:00","text":"請你們尊重一下主席的發言，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:08:32.611000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:08:34.325286+08:00","text":"他讓我發言啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:08:34.625286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:08:36.911000+08:00","text":"還是要讓我發言啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:08:37.211000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:08:55.496714+08:00","text":"有，他現在讓我發言，所以主席，當天（16 日）\n開會就只有你們國民黨的立委在這邊，所有的官員、媒體都沒有在裡面，更何況民進黨的立委\n全部都被你們擋在外面啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:08:55.796714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:09:04.939571+08:00","text":"怎麼可能你那一天人坐在這邊不知道發生什麼事情，那你不會覺得\n很奇怪嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:09:05.239571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:09:07.525286+08:00","text":"我們人都在外面啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:09:07.825286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:09:09.539571+08:00","text":"根本進不來啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:09:09.839571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:09:17.839571+08:00","text":"所以根本就不是什麼少數要服從多數，少數連\n發聲的機會都沒有啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:09:18.139571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:09:26.425286+08:00","text":"結果主席你還講，我看你那天還講說門都打開了，大家都可以進來，沒\n有！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:09:26.725286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:09:33.868143+08:00","text":"門是打開的，只有國民黨可以進來，民進黨根本沒辦法進來嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:09:34.168143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:09:39.311000+08:00","text":"所以 16 日那一天的程序根\n本就是很大的問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:09:39.611000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:09:50.753857+08:00","text":"如果 16 日是像今天這樣，你是主席，我們國民黨、民進黨立委、官員、媒體都在，大家就可\n以好好討論嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:09:51.053857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:09:52.482429+08:00","text":"但 16 日不是啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:09:52.782429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:10:07.639571+08:00","text":"16 日完全就只有你們國民黨在裡面開會，然後說表決通過，只\n花了 3 分鐘時間，然後我們一進來，你們大家全部都跑掉了，這叫開會嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:10:07.939571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:10:20.225286+08:00","text":"而且這麼重要的案\n子，你們要罷免多一票，公布民調 10 天要變成 3 天，這麼大的案子，難道不應該好好地討論嗎\n？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:10:20.525286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:11:15.382429+08:00","text":"所以今天雖然是變成黨團協商，但是應該再回到「上一動」，「上一動」就是針對這麼重要\n的案子，大家要來做討論，結果你「上一動」3 分鐘你就跳過了，然後就回到「這一動」，我相\n信「這一動」大概也是過水，等一下又跳到院長的協商，然後你們最終目的就是上個禮拜五買\n了那個保險還不夠，連署要附身分證影本還不夠，還不行，要買雙保險，再買一個保險就是罷\n免要多一票，大概你們的做法就是這樣，等到 1 月 16 日冷凍期過了之後，你們再來做一次，可\n能上個禮拜五的事情又會再發生一次。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:11:15.682429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:11:25.968143+08:00","text":"既然這件事情大家認為這麼重要，也像我們書記長所講的，你們已經有買一個保險了嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:11:26.268143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:11:38.839571+08:00","text":"你\n們買了一個保險，現在連署要附身分證影本，這個已經難度非常高了，就差不多了，我覺得就\n到此為止了啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:11:39.139571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:11:47.425286+08:00","text":"有關於罷免要多一票這件事情，我覺得不用急著在這個時候來做討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:11:47.725286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:11:56.582429+08:00","text":"好，不同的法案每個委員有不同的意見，我們都予以尊重，大家可以暢所欲言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:11:56.882429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:12:03.168143+08:00","text":"許宇甄委員優先，然後張宏陸委員，接著再鄭天財委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:12:03.468143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:12:04.611000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:12:04.911000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:12:40.625286+08:00","text":"剛剛民進黨的委員特別提到說希望能夠好好地討論，不過大家可能忘記了\n，這個案子我其實在上個會期一開始就提出來，當時的高金召委也想要好好地討論，可是民進\n黨的委員占領主席臺兩次，我相信大家應該都還記憶猶新，可以看到在占領主席臺之後，完全\n不讓我們好好地討論，不讓我們好好地發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:12:40.925286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:12:58.925286+08:00","text":"現在講說要好好地討論，要好好地發言，那天我\n們在這邊也是要讓大家好好地討論，至於說民進黨委員為什麼沒有進來，我們就在現場，我們\n也不瞭解狀況。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:12:59.225286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:13:00.368143+08:00","text":"你不知道？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:13:00.668143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:13:03.525286+08:00","text":"你不知道我們沒有進來……","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:13:03.825286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:13:12.396714+08:00","text":"我們就在現場，請尊重一下我的發言，請尊重一下我的發言，我們就在現場……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:13:12.696714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:13:18.696714+08:00","text":"你們之前圍著……\n220\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:13:18.996714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:13:25.282429+08:00","text":"至於你們為什麼沒有辦法進來，我不清楚，我就在現場……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:13:25.582429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:13:28.439571+08:00","text":"請尊重發言委員，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:13:28.739571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:13:30.739571+08:00","text":"請尊重發言委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:13:31.039571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:13:35.896714+08:00","text":"我就在現場，所以為什麼我會有兩個提案……","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:13:36.196714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:13:40.768143+08:00","text":"為什麼我會有兩個提案，我先說明一下……","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:13:41.068143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:13:42.782429+08:00","text":"不要「裝痟仔」啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:13:43.082429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:13:44.511000+08:00","text":"睜眼說瞎話。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:13:44.811000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:13:49.382429+08:00","text":"剛剛你們在講話，我也沒有打擾你們哦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:13:49.682429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:13:54.253857+08:00","text":"等一下你們可以再發言，你們可以發言……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:13:54.553857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:13:57.411000+08:00","text":"民進黨的委員沒有進來……","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:13:57.711000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:14:06.282429+08:00","text":"現在麻煩一下，等我發言完，你們要發言，我想大家都尊重，但是就互相尊重。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:14:06.582429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:14:28.296714+08:00","text":"至於為什麼要提兩個不同的，上個禮拜通過的是連署條件的部分，因為我們發覺很多連署都\n是造假抄名冊，還有死亡的連署，所以我們為什麼說要身分證影本，那是因為連署條件的問題\n。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:14:28.596714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:15:14.025286+08:00","text":"那這個版本不一樣，這個版本的話，主要是因為我們認為現在選罷法的門檻是 25%，造成了\n很多高票當選但低票就可以把他罷免的狀況，而且這個法案也不是只有我提，我想在上個會期\n，賴瑞隆、郭國文兩位委員也都有提出相同的法案，覺得不能讓多數的民意被少數否決，所以\n這是兩個不同的案子，不是什麼雙保險，因為它是不同的概念，一個是連署的問題，一個是罷\n免門檻能不能過的問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:15:14.325286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:15:47.182429+08:00","text":"基本上我這兩個提案是不同時間提出的，這個案子其實比較早提出，\n在上個會期一開始的時候就提出，可是因為民進黨一直霸占主席臺，完全不讓我們討論，所以\n一直拖到現在，當然徐欣瑩召委再度排案讓我們來討論，那上個會期已經是那樣的狀況，我必\n須要還原一個真實的狀況。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:15:47.482429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:16:14.339571+08:00","text":"當然我們希望針對這個部分不要再有政治報復跟政治鬥爭的狀況，因為現在的部分很容易造\n成比如說我是 50%當選的，我的對手可能 30%當選，他就可以讓支持他的 30%選民來罷免我，\n因為只要 25%就會通過，我們不希望有這樣的狀況。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:16:14.639571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:16:54.639571+08:00","text":"再來就是因為現在很多的惡罷造成資源的\n浪費，包括我們知道這次基隆的罷免案，其實有 3,000 萬是針對罷免的支出，如果罷免成功可能\n要再重選一次，也就是短短一年多的時間就會有兩次大選、一次罷免選舉，可以說浪費的都是\n我們納稅人的民脂民膏，都是大家的血汗錢，所以我們認為不該有惡性罷免的狀況，才會提出\n這樣的一個草案，以上。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:16:54.939571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:16:57.225286+08:00","text":"好，謝謝許宇甄委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:16:57.525286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:17:10.953857+08:00","text":"我們希望大家不要干擾議事進行，不要阻撓開會，大家都可以充分地表達，充分地發言，委\n員會是如此，院會也是如此。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:17:11.253857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:17:13.825286+08:00","text":"接下來請張宏陸召委。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-12-26T15:17:14.125286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:17:32.411000+08:00","text":"其實我本來不想特別說，可是我在這邊要說一下，我在上一屆也是當召委，國民黨也\n是霸占主席臺不讓我開會好幾次，也是公投法、選罷法，也都是這些議題啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-12-26T15:17:32.711000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:18:16.996714+08:00","text":"可是我覺得我們\n現在討論這個內容，每個人都有自己的說法，我在這邊只說一個，召委，上一次是你當召委，\n221\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄\n我們很多人都已經說了，不管原因怎樣或是當時可能你也不知道，你就坐在主席臺，但我們確\n實是被擋到，我們是內政委員會的委員不能進來，在這個裡面，其實全國也都知道是什麼原因\n，但是在議事錄那邊，你不能讓我們變成沒有開會啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-12-26T15:18:17.296714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:18:24.439571+08:00","text":"這個是永遠的，依立法院的公報，那邊\n是變成我們沒來開會耶！","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-12-26T15:18:24.739571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:18:41.311000+08:00","text":"我覺得在處理這個之前，我們針對這一點是不是大家要用腦筋怎麼來\n處理──你的議事錄怎麼去備註或什麼的、因為什麼原因有些人沒有？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-12-26T15:18:41.611000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:19:22.468143+08:00","text":"你要說你會開完了或怎麼樣，那個是一件事情，可是我覺得身為內政委員會的召委，如果我\n遇到這樣，我會想辦法把這個寫清楚，因為我們內政委員會不管怎麼樣，確實是要進來開會但\n沒有辦法開會，連上面的議事錄都寫我們沒有來開會，這個對我們來說，大家都知道我們身為\n立法委員，我來了然後被寫成我沒有來開會，這對我們是非常大的不公平。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-12-26T15:19:22.768143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:19:57.911000+08:00","text":"不管那一天會有沒\n有開成，我們以前不管怎麼樣，至少會讓人家簽到，你簽完到再把他拖出去也是一件事情，但\n不能說連簽到的機會都沒有，我覺得這一點我們要共同用智慧來解決，不然你對我們其他幾個\n內政委員會的委員非常不公平，你的議事錄一輩子跟著所有的人，我覺這一點我們要先處理啦\n！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:19:58.211000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:20:00.496714+08:00","text":"好，謝謝張宏陸召委。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:20:00.796714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:20:05.939571+08:00","text":"接下來請鄭天財委員，等一下請王美惠委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T15:20:06.239571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:20:34.811000+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：好，這個選罷法，許宇甄委員在今年 5 月就提案了，所以在上個會期也\n曾經排審，然後這個會期我們徐召委他也排審，但是大家都很清楚，召委就是沒有辦法到他的\n位置，因為都被霸占了主席臺，才會有大家剛剛所講的。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T15:20:35.111000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:20:52.825286+08:00","text":"當然這不是第一次，剛剛大家都有舉\n例過，過去第 9 屆立法院，譬如說修一例一休，那時候也是 1 分鐘，要舉這種例子就很多了，\n所以去談這個，變成我們立法院……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:20:53.125286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:21:01.411000+08:00","text":"天財兄，可是那個時候你們還是有在裡面，我覺得例子還是要舉一樣的。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T15:21:01.711000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:21:10.568143+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：我剛剛舉的，我是很輕微地講，很輕微地講說……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:21:10.868143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:21:12.868143+08:00","text":"例子要舉一樣的。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T15:21:13.168143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:21:21.168143+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：之前召委他要主持，就不讓他主持啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T15:21:21.468143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:21:33.753857+08:00","text":"至少我們以前會讓你們去主持，\n大家才可以發言，上次是你們連讓他主持、連讓大家發言的機會都沒有啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T15:21:34.053857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:21:48.911000+08:00","text":"所以我只是這樣說\n而已，我剛剛是比較輕微地把它敘述一下，所以大家都有這樣，這個是不是我們立法院大家都\n要檢討的地方？","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T15:21:49.211000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:21:51.211000+08:00","text":"這個部分是這樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T15:21:51.511000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:22:01.511000+08:00","text":"再來，選罷法有關罷免的連署，這個一定要有身分證影印本，這個是一定要的，為什麼呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T15:22:01.811000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:22:07.525286+08:00","text":"因為公民投票法也這樣修了，連署也要附身分證。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T15:22:07.825286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:22:45.539571+08:00","text":"至於今天這個案，大家當然可以討論，就像今天朝野協商大家盡情地發言，很好，沒有霸占\n朝野協商的主席臺，這也很好，所以這個部分是這樣，因為剛才許宇甄委員也提到了高票當選\n結果低票就被罷免，這個絕對是需要去檢討的地方，所以才會提出選罷法的修正，大家認為應\n該要怎麼修比較適當，這個應該大家來討論，以上。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:22:45.839571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:22:51.839571+08:00","text":"請王美惠委員，等一下請吳琪銘委員以及黃捷委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:22:52.139571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:23:29.568143+08:00","text":"主席，今天我要表達的是，在 12 月 16 日那天，說實在的，我們到臺北來開會，我不\n222\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄\n曾一天沒有來，所以你們那天致使我在立法院的公報裡面，我王美惠有一天沒有來開會，我覺\n得這非常不應該，因為我有來開會，但是被你們擋在外面，所以我希望主席對於那天有來開會\n的人不能說他沒有來開會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:23:29.868143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:23:36.725286+08:00","text":"因為主席你說你不知道，你在裡面，難道你不會覺得很奇怪？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:23:37.025286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:23:49.882429+08:00","text":"修這個法可以 1 分鐘就處理，3\n分鐘就送出去，主席，以你的想法，你不會覺得很奇怪，那天民進黨怎麼沒有半個人來？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:23:50.182429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:23:52.468143+08:00","text":"不會\n覺得很奇怪嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:23:52.768143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:24:04.196714+08:00","text":"大家都有來開會，不曾缺席的人沒有來，在同事之間，你也會想說奇怪，全勤\n的這些學生怎麼還沒來？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:24:04.496714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:24:08.496714+08:00","text":"老師也會看一下、瞧一眼，完全沒有！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:24:08.796714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:24:17.653857+08:00","text":"主席，我覺得 12 月 16 日對於\n有來開會的人，說我們沒有來，我覺得這非常不應該啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:24:17.953857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:24:31.096714+08:00","text":"等一下要說選罷法的任何條款我們再\n來說，我是要請教主席，12 月 16 日我們確確實實有來開會，但是沒辦法進來，以上。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:24:31.396714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:24:34.825286+08:00","text":"好，那本席也簡單回應，確實啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:24:35.125286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:24:51.982429+08:00","text":"我第 8 屆當立委，第 11 屆進來，我發現很多很奇怪的事\n，我一直在適應，所以我也覺得很奇怪，為什麼我當召委可以被阻擋，就是不能開會，這也很\n奇怪嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:24:52.282429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:25:01.996714+08:00","text":"我們院會的公物可以被破壞，玻璃可以打破，然後也讓大家沒辦法開會，所以確實啦\n！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:25:02.296714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:25:10.868143+08:00","text":"很多一連串很奇怪的事，所以讓我很多事情只能按照規則、法規走，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:25:11.168143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:25:12.168143+08:00","text":"沒有啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:25:12.468143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:25:14.753857+08:00","text":"主席你覺得很奇怪……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:25:15.053857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:25:19.339571+08:00","text":"王美惠委員後面接著請吳琪銘委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:25:19.639571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:25:20.639571+08:00","text":"沒有啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:25:20.939571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:25:26.653857+08:00","text":"主席你覺得很奇怪你就要改進，結果你還更奇怪！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:25:26.953857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:25:30.668143+08:00","text":"來開會沒簽到，這樣不是\n更奇怪？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員琪銘","start":"2024-12-26T15:25:30.968143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:25:38.968143+08:00","text":"主席，今天選罷法政黨協商，我覺得一點意義也沒有，等於是要過水嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員琪銘","start":"2024-12-26T15:25:39.268143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:25:40.696714+08:00","text":"要送院會嘛\n！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員琪銘","start":"2024-12-26T15:25:40.996714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:25:45.568143+08:00","text":"根本就不可能有共識，這你也很清楚啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員琪銘","start":"2024-12-26T15:25:45.868143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:26:09.011000+08:00","text":"在 12 月 16 日那天，在這裡我也要表達，那天真的\n是非常遺憾，所以今天開這個政黨協商我覺得一點意義也沒有，有那麼多政府官員，還有我們\n在區域那麼多委員，有的從高雄專程趕來，這真的是意義不好啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員琪銘","start":"2024-12-26T15:26:09.311000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:26:27.025286+08:00","text":"因為我們委員會過去大家都\n標榜說內政是很團結，內政也是最和諧，所以在未來也是可以再繼續永續下去，但是今天這個\n會議本席認為意義不大，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:26:27.325286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:26:29.325286+08:00","text":"謝謝吳琪銘委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:26:29.625286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:26:41.625286+08:00","text":"我們議事程序該討論的、該開的會我們還是該開，就像民進黨委員常常也有很多焦土戰術、\n冗長發言嘛！","quality":0.024},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:26:41.925286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:26:56.782429+08:00","text":"我們有的時候也覺得可能不一定很有意義，但是大家互相尊重，所以本席擔任會\n議主席，我該主持的、我該進行的，我會如實進行。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:26:57.082429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:27:01.653857+08:00","text":"接下來請黃捷委員，之後請陳冠廷委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:27:01.953857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:27:03.382429+08:00","text":"好，謝謝主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:27:03.682429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:27:45.111000+08:00","text":"我還是要講一下，因為 12 月 16 日當天，我不知道大家可不可以回顧一\n下當天的記憶，其實媒體上面都報導得非常清楚，所有在場的民進黨委員沒有一個可以進到會\n議室，我們是完全被限制人身自由，這也是立法院破天荒第一次因為被限制人身自由沒有辦法\n進到會議室，如果主席失憶了，許宇甄委員失憶了，麻煩你們看一下當天的畫面，當天的畫面\n哪裡有呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:27:45.411000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:27:47.696714+08:00","text":"媒體一定有，為什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:27:47.996714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:27:58.853857+08:00","text":"因為媒體跟我們一起被擋在外面，媒體也沒辦法進來，然後\n現在你看媒體在那邊，他也覺得哦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:27:59.153857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:28:04.296714+08:00","text":"竟然可以進來了，他們應該也覺得很無奈吧！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:28:04.596714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:28:15.453857+08:00","text":"當天在會議\n室的畫面他們自己都拍不到，大家回想一下，當天會議室的畫面是怎麼拿到的呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:28:15.753857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:28:38.611000+08:00","text":"是國民黨自\n223\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄\n己的直播、自己的錄影畫面放送出去，我們才知道會議室裡面到底發生什麼事情，因為連媒體\n、連部會官員──部會官員那一天也很想進來開會啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:28:38.911000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:28:42.339571+08:00","text":"結果他們也都被擋在外面耶！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:28:42.639571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:28:54.068143+08:00","text":"這裡面沒\n有任何該開會的人可以進來，只有國民黨自己坐在這邊自導自演自嗨，然後跟大家說好！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:28:54.368143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:28:55.796714+08:00","text":"我們\n通過了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:28:56.096714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:28:59.525286+08:00","text":"請問這樣的會議真的算數嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:28:59.825286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:29:08.111000+08:00","text":"剛剛主席不是說該開的、該進行的程序要進行，這個是\n該進行的程序嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:29:08.411000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:29:10.982429+08:00","text":"你不是說要互相尊重？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:29:11.282429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:29:16.139571+08:00","text":"少數要服從多數，那多數也要尊重少數啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:29:16.439571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:29:21.011000+08:00","text":"這個才是\n立法院合議制的精神，不是嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:29:21.311000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:29:34.739571+08:00","text":"主席剛剛也說當家不要鬧事，可是立法院當家的從來都是國民黨，怎麼會一直讓少數沒有辦\n法好好地表達意見呢？","quality":0.021},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:29:35.039571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:29:50.753857+08:00","text":"所以我主張那一天的會議完全是非法而且無效的會議，是不是在這邊請\n求大家，我們不要讓這種破天荒的惡例變成是立法院的常態？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:29:51.053857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:29:59.053857+08:00","text":"此例一開，未來不得了，每個人\n就是自己躲在角落說我們開會說了算。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:29:59.353857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:30:14.211000+08:00","text":"如果每個召委都可以躲在角落說好，我們自己一群人大\n家手拉手，大家舉手說會議通過，這樣就算數的話，立法院還需要開門嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:30:14.511000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:30:16.511000+08:00","text":"是不是關門算了？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:30:16.811000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:30:24.811000+08:00","text":"然後剛剛鄭天財委員提到的那個例子一例一休，後來就退回重審啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:30:25.111000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:30:27.682429+08:00","text":"後來就回到委員會啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:30:27.982429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:30:37.982429+08:00","text":"因\n為大家就是希望說一樣，要各退一步，不要讓立法院變成這種有惡例的狀況出現嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:30:38.282429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:30:41.711000+08:00","text":"所以是不\n是我們回到委員會？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:30:42.011000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:30:45.725286+08:00","text":"今天協商開了也沒有意義了啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:30:46.025286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:30:52.596714+08:00","text":"你們在這邊過水，急著要過，其實當家不\n要這樣子鬧事吧！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:30:52.896714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:30:54.611000+08:00","text":"你們是多數耶！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:30:54.911000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:31:04.339571+08:00","text":"你們多數到最後，好好地討論，讓社會瞭解，讓大眾瞭解之\n後，你們表決還是會贏啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:31:04.639571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:31:24.639571+08:00","text":"大家都知道你們表決會贏，這個是已經知道可能會發生的結果，那\n中間的議事過程不能拿出召委的高度、召委的氣度，做一個有格局、願意來照顧所有立法院夥\n伴的召委嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:31:24.939571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:31:26.653857+08:00","text":"把程序完備吧！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:31:26.953857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:31:28.668143+08:00","text":"把程序完備吧！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:31:28.968143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:31:33.253857+08:00","text":"是不是就退回委員會重新好好審議？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:31:33.553857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:31:38.125286+08:00","text":"至少讓大家\n理解現在到底在審什麼啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:31:38.425286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:31:46.711000+08:00","text":"像今天不只是審許宇甄委員提的當選門檻加 1，裡面有多少人的版本啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:31:47.011000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:31:57.582429+08:00","text":"包括陳冠廷委員的版\n本，當天也都沒有被處理，沒有被討論，他甚至沒有辦法來提案說明耶！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:31:57.882429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:32:02.453857+08:00","text":"好歹讓我們提案的委\n員來說明一下吧！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:32:02.753857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:32:06.753857+08:00","text":"翁曉玲還提了一個選前 10 天改 3 天，欸！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:32:07.053857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:32:10.482429+08:00","text":"這個受害最深的是宋楚瑜欸！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:32:10.782429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:32:25.353857+08:00","text":"召委\n，宋楚瑜主席從當時到現在，他還是無法釋懷，直到這一次大選他還是不斷地告訴大家說國民\n黨就是假民調的創始者欸！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:32:25.653857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:32:28.511000+08:00","text":"你都不用替他想一想嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:32:28.811000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:33:03.096714+08:00","text":"後面還有好幾個案，蘇清泉也提了千分之\n三驗票要改千分之十，其實每一個都茲事體大，在座每個人都是選舉選出來的，每一個選舉的\n變革都會對選舉造成非常重大的影響，更不用說這個 10 天改 3 天的民調禁制期，大家不要忘記\n去年因為民調受害最大的就是國民黨，結果你們現在忘記傷痛了嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:33:03.396714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:33:04.396714+08:00","text":"怎麼會……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:33:04.696714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:33:06.125286+08:00","text":"宋楚瑜。對啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:33:06.425286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:33:12.425286+08:00","text":"怎麼會讓這個假老二的民調再一次來傷害你們呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:33:12.725286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:33:26.153857+08:00","text":"所以拜託大家，這些法案現在\n都在我們的桌上，結果大家完全沒有討論就要這樣過水送出去，你們真的可以接受嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:33:26.453857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:33:28.739571+08:00","text":"國民黨\n可以接受嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:33:29.039571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:33:31.325286+08:00","text":"宋楚瑜可以接受嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:33:31.625286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:33:40.482429+08:00","text":"更不用說去年還有一個例子，剛剛易餘委員也有提到，那個\n是中國有介入欸！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:33:40.782429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:33:45.925286+08:00","text":"中共介選的假民調已經被檢調發現了……對啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:33:46.225286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:33:51.939571+08:00","text":"他們現在就是用這樣，讓你 3 天沒有辦法去處理啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:33:52.239571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:34:06.525286+08:00","text":"竟然有國外的境外勢力要透過破壞選舉制度來干預我們的選舉，那我們是不是應該更謹\n慎來討論每一次的選舉變革呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:34:06.825286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:34:41.682429+08:00","text":"在座大家應該都很珍視我們臺灣民主的選舉制度才對，而且大\n224\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄\n家也要知道，現在的選舉制度是世界認可的，可信度很高，有公正性，然後也都彼此認同，這\n就是我們一直以來引以為傲的民主制度，那我們在這邊把它越修越爛，改到這樣子，為了保護\n自己，成何體統呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:34:41.982429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:34:55.696714+08:00","text":"而且我在院會也有講過，我自己都是經歷過罷免的人，我當時候也沒有說\n要提出這種鬼東西，不知羞恥來保護自己啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:34:55.996714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:34:57.996714+08:00","text":"韓國瑜也沒有啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:34:58.296714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:35:08.582429+08:00","text":"所以我們都是欣然接受遊戲規\n則長什麼樣子，大家就去走，用最大的努力去爭取民意嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:35:08.882429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:35:17.168143+08:00","text":"怎麼會在這裡擅自改變遊戲規則，\n只為了自我保護鞏固自己的權力呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:35:17.468143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:35:21.468143+08:00","text":"這種東西人民真的沒辦法接受啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:35:21.768143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:35:37.196714+08:00","text":"所以拜託、拜託，我們\n就是好好地回到委員會，你好好討論，如果人民都接受說沒關係，就是用當選門檻加 1，我們到\n時候也會欣然接受啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:35:37.496714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:35:43.496714+08:00","text":"這個都是人民的選擇，但是你不能讓程序不完備啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:35:43.796714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:35:52.082429+08:00","text":"程序正義是民主的\n第一步，你程序完備了，我們再來討論下一步，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:35:52.382429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:35:54.382429+08:00","text":"拜託，請主席裁示。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:35:54.682429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:36:11.825286+08:00","text":"選罷法在本屆的第 1 會期排兩次都沒辦法開會，這個會期的第 1 次排案也是沒辦法開會，所\n以這個到底是誰造成的，我想你們也應該去面對這個問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:36:12.125286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:36:15.553857+08:00","text":"主席，沒辦法開會，議事的攻防……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:36:15.853857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:36:23.282429+08:00","text":"不代表你可以用威權、集權的手段，因為這個真的要導正視聽啦！","quality":0.077},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:36:23.582429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:36:27.011000+08:00","text":"大家必須要知道說再\n怎麼樣……","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:36:27.311000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:36:30.168143+08:00","text":"主席請你發言你再發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:36:30.468143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:36:38.468143+08:00","text":"我們議事的杯葛也不能限制立委的人身自由來強硬地通過，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:36:38.768143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:36:46.196714+08:00","text":"現在是拿麥克風大家都要講，主席在講話，我們尊重一下主席嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:36:46.496714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:36:47.639571+08:00","text":"好，沒關係。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:36:47.939571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:37:03.082429+08:00","text":"接著第二點就是說，每一個委員他提的法案我們都尊重，所以每個人都可以充\n分表達，至於支持不支持，我想這個就透過民主程序。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:37:03.382429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:37:12.811000+08:00","text":"接下來請陳冠廷委員，陳冠廷委員後面我們請蔡書記長易餘，接著請麥玉珍委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T15:37:13.111000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:37:15.111000+08:00","text":"可以讓我先講嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-12-26T15:37:15.411000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:37:17.411000+08:00","text":"按照排序跟程序。","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T15:37:17.711000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:37:22.282429+08:00","text":"因為你們發言那麼多次，我都沒有發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-12-26T15:37:22.582429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:37:24.582429+08:00","text":"我也還沒發言啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:37:24.882429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:37:27.168143+08:00","text":"沒有，你比較晚到啊！","quality":0.125},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:37:27.468143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:37:29.753857+08:00","text":"沒有，一個人一次啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T15:37:30.053857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:37:32.625286+08:00","text":"對，我是說各黨輪流嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:37:32.925286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:37:34.353857+08:00","text":"要照規矩來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T15:37:34.653857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:37:35.796714+08:00","text":"照規矩來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:37:36.096714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:37:37.525286+08:00","text":"照主席說的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:37:37.825286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:37:46.111000+08:00","text":"麥委員，不好意思，因為我已經先答應他們，在看到您舉手之前，不好意思。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:37:46.411000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:37:47.553857+08:00","text":"什麼毛病？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-12-26T15:37:47.853857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:37:48.996714+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-12-26T15:37:49.296714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:37:50.439571+08:00","text":"主席，這個……","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T15:37:50.739571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:37:51.882429+08:00","text":"什麼毛病？","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T15:37:52.182429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:37:55.039571+08:00","text":"我講這樣子是不可以嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T15:37:55.339571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:37:59.625286+08:00","text":"225\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:37:59.925286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:38:00.925286+08:00","text":"不行啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T15:38:01.225286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:38:03.225286+08:00","text":"我問一聲不行嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T15:38:03.525286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:38:08.668143+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：他爭取而已。","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T15:38:08.968143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:38:10.682429+08:00","text":"對，爭取而已啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T15:38:10.982429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:38:11.982429+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T15:38:12.282429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:38:14.853857+08:00","text":"能不能講是主席決定。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:38:15.153857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:38:17.725286+08:00","text":"就按順序來，為什麼要……","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T15:38:18.025286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:38:22.025286+08:00","text":"我是爭取而已，跟毛病有什麼關係？","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T15:38:22.325286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:38:24.325286+08:00","text":"講話就是這樣子！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:38:24.625286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:38:27.482429+08:00","text":"你們黃國昌最討厭插隊。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:38:27.782429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:38:30.353857+08:00","text":"不是說很討厭插隊嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:38:30.653857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:38:32.082429+08:00","text":"插什麼隊啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:38:32.382429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:38:33.811000+08:00","text":"我有欠你哦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T15:38:34.111000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:38:36.682429+08:00","text":"你剛剛不是在插隊嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T15:38:36.982429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:38:41.268143+08:00","text":"人家在講話，主席在講話，你在插隊嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:38:41.568143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:38:42.996714+08:00","text":"插什麼隊啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:38:43.296714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:38:45.011000+08:00","text":"人家有欠你嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:38:45.311000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:38:47.311000+08:00","text":"為什麼要插隊啊？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:38:47.611000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:38:50.468143+08:00","text":"你舉手就會讓你發言啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T15:38:50.768143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:38:55.625286+08:00","text":"我舉手是說可不可以，不可以由主席決定……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:38:55.925286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:38:58.211000+08:00","text":"為什麼你要先發言？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:38:58.511000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:39:01.939571+08:00","text":"你就舉手，按照順序來不行嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T15:39:02.239571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:39:05.668143+08:00","text":"不是你決定，你是哪一根蔥啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T15:39:05.968143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:39:06.968143+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:39:07.268143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:39:08.982429+08:00","text":"人家有欠你嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:39:09.282429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:39:10.425286+08:00","text":"哪一根蔥……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:39:10.725286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:39:13.582429+08:00","text":"不是很討厭插隊嗎？對啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T15:39:13.882429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:39:15.882429+08:00","text":"我講話，插什麼嘴！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:39:16.182429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:39:19.896714+08:00","text":"因為黃國昌不是最討厭插隊嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:39:20.196714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:39:24.196714+08:00","text":"我們尊重陳冠廷委員發言，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:39:24.496714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:39:25.639571+08:00","text":"不能插嘴……","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T15:39:25.939571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:39:30.511000+08:00","text":"他不能插嘴，是主席在講話，他插什麼嘴！","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:39:30.811000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:39:33.382429+08:00","text":"讓陳冠廷委員發言啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:39:33.682429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:39:37.111000+08:00","text":"你們不讓陳冠廷委員發言嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:39:37.411000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:39:39.696714+08:00","text":"不是說不能插隊嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:39:39.996714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:39:41.139571+08:00","text":"插什麼隊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:39:41.439571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:39:42.868143+08:00","text":"插什麼隊啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T15:39:43.168143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:39:45.168143+08:00","text":"你們最大是不是？","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T15:39:45.468143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:39:49.182429+08:00","text":"民進黨最大，民進黨講什麼都對……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:39:49.482429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:39:51.482429+08:00","text":"那你插什麼隊嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T15:39:51.782429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:39:54.639571+08:00","text":"別人講都不行，是這樣嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:39:54.939571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:40:00.368143+08:00","text":"黃國昌說不能插隊，你們都沒有聽黃國昌的話！","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:40:00.668143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:40:04.382429+08:00","text":"你們要不要讓陳冠廷委員發言？","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:40:04.682429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:40:08.682429+08:00","text":"請尊重一下陳冠廷委員好嗎？對啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T15:40:08.982429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:40:22.411000+08:00","text":"我舉手是爭取，如果不行的話主席決定，不是你在那邊說什麼毛病，講話要尊\n226\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄\n重！","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:40:22.711000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:40:28.996714+08:00","text":"剛剛麥玉珍委員是在跟你們溝通可不可以讓他先講。","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T15:40:29.296714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:40:31.011000+08:00","text":"不是大聲就贏！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T15:40:31.311000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:40:33.025286+08:00","text":"不是人多就贏！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:40:33.325286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:40:34.468143+08:00","text":"他要插隊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:40:34.768143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:40:43.911000+08:00","text":"他沒有要插隊，剛剛是在跟你們溝通可不可以讓他先講，如果不行就不行了嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T15:40:44.211000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:40:51.068143+08:00","text":"我是問主席可不可以，不行的話主席就說不行，你是主席嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T15:40:51.368143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:40:52.796714+08:00","text":"你是召委嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:40:53.096714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:41:01.096714+08:00","text":"他剛剛是跟各位溝通可不可以讓他先講，如果不同意那就沒關係啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:41:01.396714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:41:04.253857+08:00","text":"他也沒有說他要\n插隊啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T15:41:04.553857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:41:10.268143+08:00","text":"每一個人都可以舉手，每一個人都是平起平坐的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:41:10.568143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:41:13.425286+08:00","text":"公民素養而已，很困難嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T15:41:13.725286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:41:15.153857+08:00","text":"你有素養嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T15:41:15.453857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:41:20.311000+08:00","text":"主席在講話，你都插嘴了，你的素養在哪裡？","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:41:20.611000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:41:24.896714+08:00","text":"他沒有說他要插隊，他是跟你們溝通……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:41:25.196714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:41:27.482429+08:00","text":"你就回去問黃國昌！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:41:27.782429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:41:30.068143+08:00","text":"你就回去問黃國昌！","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:41:30.368143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:41:34.939571+08:00","text":"他是跟你們溝通可不可以讓他先講嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:41:35.239571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:41:36.953857+08:00","text":"有什麼好插隊？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:41:37.253857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:41:40.682429+08:00","text":"講個話而已，有什麼好插隊啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T15:41:40.982429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:41:45.268143+08:00","text":"我可以舉手，主席決定，不是你們決定！","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:41:45.568143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:41:47.282429+08:00","text":"沒有人要插隊。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:41:47.582429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:41:49.296714+08:00","text":"我們有欠你嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:41:49.596714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:41:50.739571+08:00","text":"有欠你哦？","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T15:41:51.039571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:41:53.611000+08:00","text":"我問而已，主席再裁示……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:41:53.911000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:41:55.625286+08:00","text":"你拿麥克風了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T15:41:55.925286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:42:00.211000+08:00","text":"我拿麥克風，剛才他也是拿麥克風啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T15:42:00.511000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:42:03.653857+08:00","text":"他可以，我們不可以是不是？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:42:03.953857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:42:07.382429+08:00","text":"什麼他拿麥克風，是你先拿的！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T15:42:07.682429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:42:12.825286+08:00","text":"剛才主席在講話，他還是一樣在旁邊插嘴啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T15:42:13.125286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:42:14.553857+08:00","text":"對不對？好啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:42:14.853857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:42:17.996714+08:00","text":"你要不要讓陳冠廷講話啦？","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T15:42:18.296714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:42:20.296714+08:00","text":"都是尊重主席啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T15:42:20.596714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:42:26.025286+08:00","text":"所以我們是要問而已，每一個人都有權利去問。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:42:26.325286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:42:27.325286+08:00","text":"好，不行！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:42:27.625286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:42:29.339571+08:00","text":"主席，你先裁決。","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T15:42:29.639571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:42:32.782429+08:00","text":"裁決就讓主席裁決啊！好啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:42:33.082429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:42:37.653857+08:00","text":"我們請陳冠廷委員發言，陳冠廷委員請。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:42:37.953857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:42:39.096714+08:00","text":"哪一根蔥！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:42:39.396714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:42:40.396714+08:00","text":"「黃國蔥」。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:42:40.696714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:42:41.839571+08:00","text":"黃國昌啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:42:42.139571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:42:43.282429+08:00","text":"「黃國蔥」啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-12-26T15:42:43.582429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:42:44.725286+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-12-26T15:42:45.025286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:43:22.739571+08:00","text":"剛才我們提到冗長發言也是議事的一部分，可是拒絕我們進入議場或者是\n227\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄\n會議的地方，那就沒有達成冗長發言的可能性，所以在最基本的程序它就沒有完備，這點我們\n是很遺憾，剛才每一位委員也都表達抗議了，所以剛才幾個委員有談到，希望能夠把這個程序\n完備，到委員會裡面去審。","quality":0.008},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-12-26T15:43:23.039571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:43:52.468143+08:00","text":"其實包含麥玉珍委員，我們有各個不同的意見，剛才也花很多時間\n，這也是冗長發言的一部分，我們到時候討論，可能有些時候在意見上面完全是有衝突的，但\n是我們還是可以去討論這些事情，所以為什麼這幾年我們一直強調委員會中心主義也是這樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-12-26T15:43:52.768143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:44:26.196714+08:00","text":"上一次我們看到包含門都已經直接被封起來了，只留一個出口，而那個出口前面又有國民黨\n委員來去做阻擋，所以其他意見沒辦法進來，是物理上的沒有辦法進來，那這一點我是希望主\n席能夠重新再思考，可不可以把上一次的這些東西想一次，然後我們重新再到委員會來討論選\n罷法？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-12-26T15:44:26.496714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:44:49.068143+08:00","text":"其實也不是只有多一票、少一票可不可以通過罷免而已，選舉罷免法裡面還有很多細微\n的部分，儘管是幾個字的變動，它就會更改到整個我們未來民主包含選舉制度的改變，它的影\n響是很深的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-12-26T15:44:49.368143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:45:18.511000+08:00","text":"像我自己是提選罷法的第五十二條，很可惜我上次就沒有機會說明，很感謝剛才黃捷委員替\n我們爭取，我們也希望有一個機會來說明，我看到這一次的報告資料中，書面資料也沒有特別\n地改變，因為我沒有機會說明，所以他們才沒有辦法反映給我嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-12-26T15:45:18.811000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:45:57.668143+08:00","text":"我們在裡面有提到，非政黨\n推薦候選人是否要授權使用該政黨負責人頭像，因為我們發覺到上一次的選舉，其實很多時候\n有一些跟中國方面關係密切的人，他蓄意利用假錯亂訊息，把他跟我們那時候的執政黨黨首的\n照片合成，去做分票的做法，這個做法不只是在一個縣市，在全臺灣各縣市都有，這就是國安\n上面的一個漏洞跟危機。","quality":0.007},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-12-26T15:45:57.968143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:46:10.825286+08:00","text":"在中選會上面，我們是希望透過這樣子的法條修正來去完備，可是我們上次沒有辦法討論，\n為什麼沒辦法討論？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-12-26T15:46:11.125286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:46:24.268143+08:00","text":"因為我們沒辦法進來討論，我們沒有辦法用議事冗長、冗長辯論的方式去\n把這個嚴重性提出來，為什麼沒有辦法？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-12-26T15:46:24.568143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:47:09.711000+08:00","text":"因為我們被物理上的隔絕了，所以我們現在講的不是\n說過去誰、誰、誰，我們怎麼樣然後你們怎麼樣，不管是我們怎麼樣、你們怎麼樣，我們基本\n上還是有一定的程序會走，你要簽到，然後不管你是在主席臺裡面爭取發言的機會，或者是在\n這個地方、在這個場域裡面做肢體上面的推擠，都還是有一定的制度，如果這一次這個制度被\n破壞的話，那以後在議會上面的議會政治就不是議會政治囉！","quality":0.013},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-12-26T15:47:10.011000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:47:22.296714+08:00","text":"那就是全面想辦法用其他的，用\n陰招、用各種方式讓你物理上面沒有辦法進來表達你的意見，那就糟糕了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:47:22.596714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:47:23.596714+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:47:23.896714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:47:26.468143+08:00","text":"接著請蔡書記長易餘。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:47:26.768143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:48:03.911000+08:00","text":"主席，我們今天協商，基本上民眾黨麥玉珍我不知道他會不會再進來，看起來今天協\n商會變成只是過水，所以我們還是利用這個機會，在我們能發言的時候還是要跟主席講，如果\n你那一天主持議事，你看到民進黨沒有一個委員有辦法進來議場，那你心裡沒有覺得奇怪，我\n想要請教主席的是，為什麼官員一個都沒有進來？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:48:04.211000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:48:08.496714+08:00","text":"我們今天在朝野協商，官員也是來啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:48:08.796714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:48:14.511000+08:00","text":"更何\n況在委員會審查的時候，官員更需要進來啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:48:14.811000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:48:33.953857+08:00","text":"那一天官員都沒有進來，媒體朋友一個也沒進來\n，所以主席，我覺得不要睜眼說瞎話，議事攻防都有，剛剛鄭天財委員舉了一例一休的時候，\n一例一休的時候成就了誰？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:48:34.253857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:48:50.539571+08:00","text":"成就了蔣萬安，因為他占領主席臺，一個人發言了兩個小時，所有\n228\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄\n的媒體把他捧得很高，成就了蔣萬安啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:48:50.839571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:49:23.125286+08:00","text":"大家都知道，那他也是在做他的議事攻防，他不想讓\n民進黨開成會，當然後來民進黨用我們的方式，希望可以把一例一休在當時完成修法，當時雖\n然我們在很短的時間把它送出委員會，但是國民黨一樣是有簽到，在議事錄上國民黨一樣是有\n出席的，那後來一例一休的處理怎樣？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:49:23.425286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:49:37.139571+08:00","text":"說民進黨在處理上因為時間太匆促，沒有讓大家充分發\n言，後來經過朝野協商把它退回委員會，這是一例一休的狀況。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:49:37.439571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:50:04.011000+08:00","text":"後來還有一次是會計法的修法\n，就是陳水扁總統在國務機要費的一個狀況，也是因為委員會處理有瑕疵，後來還是把它退回\n委員會，所以我覺得主席就在你的一念之間，你身為召委，內政委員會的另外一位召委宏陸也\n在這邊啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:50:04.311000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:50:38.882429+08:00","text":"他也覺得內政委員會未來還是希望大家是可以和諧開會的一個空間，而不是說我一\n旦想要反對你的意見，我不想讓你的意見進來議場的時候，我就用武力阻絕你，我用暴力讓你\n根本不能進來，讓你的聲音連進來都沒辦法進來，甚至讓你連簽到都不能簽到，我覺得主席你\n可以去思考這一件事啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:50:39.182429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:51:02.896714+08:00","text":"你光看那個議事錄，我們大家都到了立法院，這麼多內政委員會的同仁到了立法院，結果他\n們在議事錄是沒有來開會的、是缺席的，我覺得大家一樣都是內政委員會的委員，你這樣對立\n法院同事有必要嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:51:03.196714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:51:19.482429+08:00","text":"我還是要回到我一開始講的，如果國民黨認為選罷法透過加嚴的程序來阻\n絕未來不要有這麼多罷免狀況的發生，那你們也達成一半了啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:51:19.782429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:51:36.639571+08:00","text":"而且這個一半也不能說一半，\n它已經讓未來在連署上有很高的難度，基本上在連署這塊你們就可以看出已經很難了，連署幾\n乎沒辦法成功了啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:51:36.939571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:51:42.082429+08:00","text":"那如果這樣的話，你們幹嘛還要急著在現在？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:51:42.382429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:51:57.811000+08:00","text":"你現在退回委員會，未來在\n審查頂多程序再慢一點，退回委員會完，審查過了再回到二、三讀，你們還是可以達到最後要\n三讀的目的啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:51:58.111000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:51:59.825286+08:00","text":"結果你不是啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:52:00.125286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:52:29.553857+08:00","text":"主席，你今天用這樣過水式的協商，然後你要把這件事到了院長協商後就要二、三讀了，我\n跟你講，你這個委員會的瑕疵長在那裡，你也是逼得我們未來在院會處理的時候要再抗爭一次\n，因為你們這個瑕疵就長在這裡，我們怎麼可能去背書你這個瑕疵啊？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:52:29.853857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:52:30.853857+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:52:31.153857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:52:39.439571+08:00","text":"大家都沒辦法\n進來開會，你要我們在二、三讀的時候去背書這個瑕疵嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:52:39.739571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:52:57.453857+08:00","text":"所以我覺得主席你可以發揮你的高\n度，12 月 16 日也許你沒有期待我們的人會被阻絕在外面，你覺得是我們比較慢進來，但是你應\n該注意到官員也沒進來啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:52:57.753857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:53:01.182429+08:00","text":"確實它的問題都長在那裡嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:53:01.482429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:53:11.196714+08:00","text":"那你事後透過媒體看，你也看到了我\n們的人真的是被國民黨的立委阻絕在外面啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:53:11.496714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:53:14.068143+08:00","text":"我們是被物理阻絕欸！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:53:14.368143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:53:15.368143+08:00","text":"好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:53:15.668143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:53:42.239571+08:00","text":"主席，我覺得我們不要用今天的協商來過水，我們還是嚴肅地來討論 12 月 16 日那一天所發\n生的事，然後我們解決那一天的程序瑕疵，我們補正那一天的程序瑕疵，也許會讓未來你們期\n待的選罷法修法走得更順一點，主席，再思考一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:53:42.539571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:53:47.968143+08:00","text":"過水是你講的，我們就照程序走，你知道行政院……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:53:48.268143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:53:49.982429+08:00","text":"過水是我講的？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:53:50.282429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:53:53.996714+08:00","text":"你現在就是在過水，什麼我講的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:53:54.296714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:53:57.153857+08:00","text":"主席，你根本是在「烏白花」。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:53:57.453857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:54:07.453857+08:00","text":"所有委員都在，就是民進黨的委員跟行政官員不在，所以我就跟你講，第 11 屆怪事特別多\n。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:54:07.753857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:54:12.039571+08:00","text":"229\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:54:12.339571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:54:13.339571+08:00","text":"沒有哦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:54:13.639571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:54:17.068143+08:00","text":"不要講什麼第 11 屆怪事特別多……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:54:17.368143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:54:21.653857+08:00","text":"行政官員可以不在，來了再離開，所以……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:54:21.953857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:54:27.096714+08:00","text":"主席，就是你主持的那一次才是真的怪事啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:54:27.396714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:54:28.825286+08:00","text":"不要裝傻啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:54:29.125286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:54:31.125286+08:00","text":"什麼怪事特別多！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:54:31.425286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:54:33.425286+08:00","text":"我們沒辦法進來！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:54:33.725286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:54:35.725286+08:00","text":"我們沒辦法進來！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:54:36.025286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:54:38.596714+08:00","text":"這個問題你都不面對！","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:54:38.896714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:54:48.325286+08:00","text":"主席，過去 3 次民進黨的委員占領主席臺的時候，那時候就沒有暴力、就沒有武力嗎\n？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:54:48.625286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:54:51.768143+08:00","text":"我剛才就說過，過去蔣萬安……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:54:52.068143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:54:54.068143+08:00","text":"暴力的是陳玉珍！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:54:54.368143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:54:56.368143+08:00","text":"暴力的是陳玉珍！","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:54:56.668143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:55:00.668143+08:00","text":"民進黨說的就算數，那我們就不算……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:55:00.968143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:55:07.825286+08:00","text":"你們過去蔣萬安在占主席臺的時候，也是這樣占主席臺啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:55:08.125286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:55:17.839571+08:00","text":"你們全副武裝，每個人穿護具打人、揍人，邱鎮軍揍人，陳玉珍踹人，踹到人家身體受\n傷！","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:55:18.139571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:55:28.425286+08:00","text":"三次由民進黨的委員占領主席臺，讓我們沒有辦法好好地討論、不能好好地討論，為\n什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:55:28.725286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:55:31.582429+08:00","text":"至少讓你們進來簽到啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:55:31.882429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:55:33.596714+08:00","text":"暴力的是誰啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:55:33.896714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:55:35.611000+08:00","text":"暴力的是誰啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:55:35.911000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:55:47.911000+08:00","text":"不是，現在你們說要討論就討論，那我們說要討論就不是討論，所以我覺得這樣子說\n真的是有失公允啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:55:48.211000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:55:56.211000+08:00","text":"行政官員自己想走就走，所有立法院的議事人員都還在，主席也還在……","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:55:56.511000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:56:02.225286+08:00","text":"我們也希望能夠好好地討論，那也走到這一步了……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:56:02.525286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:56:07.668143+08:00","text":"只有國民黨可以進來的會議室，算什麼開會？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:56:07.968143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:56:09.396714+08:00","text":"算什麼開會？","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:56:09.696714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:56:17.125286+08:00","text":"也討論了一段時間了，那我想這段時間，今天既然是朝野協商嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:56:17.425286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:56:18.568143+08:00","text":"那個時候……","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:56:18.868143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:56:24.296714+08:00","text":"主席，如果大家沒有共識，那就保留送協商好嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:56:24.596714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:56:27.168143+08:00","text":"既然大家沒有共識嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:56:27.468143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:56:30.611000+08:00","text":"所以你就是要過水就對了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:56:30.911000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:56:32.625286+08:00","text":"退回委員會啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:56:32.925286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:56:34.353857+08:00","text":"退回委員會！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:56:34.653857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:56:37.511000+08:00","text":"主席，你要不要處理 12 月 16 日？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:56:37.811000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:56:40.096714+08:00","text":"不要當歷史罪人啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:56:40.396714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:56:44.682429+08:00","text":"230\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:56:44.982429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:56:48.982429+08:00","text":"這個已經排案算是第 6 次還是第 7 次……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:56:49.282429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:56:51.853857+08:00","text":"召委不要當歷史罪人！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:56:52.153857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:56:54.439571+08:00","text":"你要不要處理 12 月 16 日？","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:56:54.739571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:56:58.739571+08:00","text":"不管要開什麼，其實都已經開過了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:56:59.039571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:57:03.611000+08:00","text":"因為現在的協商少了一個政黨啊！有啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:57:03.911000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:57:05.053857+08:00","text":"剛剛在啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:57:05.353857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:57:06.782429+08:00","text":"現在不在啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:57:07.082429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:57:11.082429+08:00","text":"既然這樣的話，那就保留送協商啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:57:11.382429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:57:13.668143+08:00","text":"他去聲援柯 P了啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:57:13.968143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:57:18.825286+08:00","text":"既然沒有共識，沒有共識就保留送協商嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:57:19.125286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:57:24.268143+08:00","text":"你不處理 12 月 16 日，基本上你現在就是在過水啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:57:24.568143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:57:29.425286+08:00","text":"你如果要過水，我們不必陪你，\n我們要走了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:57:29.725286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:57:32.296714+08:00","text":"那就保留送協商，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:57:32.596714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:57:33.739571+08:00","text":"不同意啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:57:34.039571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:57:35.753857+08:00","text":"退回委員會啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:57:36.053857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:57:38.339571+08:00","text":"你一點擔當都沒有！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:57:38.639571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:57:41.782429+08:00","text":"今天我們的會議到此，散會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:57:42.082429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:57:43.225286+08:00","text":"散會（16 時 13 分）","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}