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案"},{"start":2136.141,"end":2137.081,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案：立法院朝野黨團協商．事由：一、本院內政委員"},{"start":2152.563,"end":2154.505,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案：一、本院內政委員會報告審查委員翁曉玲等16人擬具"},{"start":2172.36,"end":2186.186,"text":"從來沒有一次我的站主席台然後我來齁我是要把議事加速進行讓反對的聲音沒辦法進來然後我把程序加速幾分金如我鬼三分金話話說阿輝沒有這樣的嘛所以既然有這麼大的瑕疵在這邊那主席如果你也同意既然你們已經在程序加嚴這一關在上禮拜五你們完成三讀了"},{"start":2199.397,"end":2203.78,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案．事由．立法院朝野黨團協商．事由．立法院朝野黨團協商．事由．立法院朝野黨團協商．"},{"start":2227.008,"end":2239.083,"text":"民進黨我們在立法院多數的時候國民黨也是有站主席台啊但是站主席台的用意就我剛才講的嘛就是讓程序慢一點盡量讓程序再慢一點讓他討論再完整一點沒人站主席台真的要開車啦"},{"start":2246.608,"end":2268.835,"text":"主席我具體建議啦我具體建議看主席能不能認為你能不能接納既然12月16有這麼多的瑕疵我們有沒有考慮反正今天沒有三個政黨在今天這個協商看起來是沒有辦法做有效的協商主席你有沒有辦法考慮我們這案我們退回程序委員會"},{"start":2270.659,"end":2288.661,"text":"內政委員會報告審查委員楊曉玲等16人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案案案件 條文絕對不是只有說這個當選票數罷免票大於當選票這樣一個條文而已他還有很多其他的選罷法的一些條文而且這些條文都影響到我們的選舉權"},{"start":2289.963,"end":2291.044,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案：立法院朝野黨團協商：一、本院內政委員"},{"start":2316.131,"end":2329.668,"text":"請各位委員要注意,我們排法案是每個委員提案的權利,主席只是安排法案以及按照議事規則來主持。"},{"start":2331.93,"end":2351.378,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案：立法院朝野黨團協商：一、本院內政委員會報告審查委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案：立法院朝野黨團協商：立法院朝野黨團協商：立法院朝野黨團協商："},{"start":2355.373,"end":2372.298,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案．事由．一、本院內政委員楊曉玲等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案．事由．一、本院內政委員翁曉玲等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案．事由．一、本院內政委員翁曉玲等17人擬具"},{"start":2381.54,"end":2382.081,"text":"蘇清泉等23人擬具"},{"start":2399.896,"end":2401.297,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案案 案"},{"start":2424.99,"end":2429.213,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十七條條文修正草案．事由．一、本院內政委員楊曉玲等16人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案．事由．一、本院內政委員翁曉玲等16人擬具"},{"start":2445.683,"end":2453.409,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案．事由：一、本院內政委員楊曉玲等16人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案．事由．一、本院內政委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案．事由．一、本院內政委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案．事由．一、本院內政委員楊曉玲等16人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第"},{"start":2475.285,"end":2478.227,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十七條條文修正草案．事由．立法院朝野黨團協商．事由．立法院朝野黨團協商．"},{"start":2502.597,"end":2531.335,"text":"上一棟其實就是因為要針對這麼重要的案子大家來做討論結果你上一棟三分鐘你就跳過了然後就回到這一棟那我相信這一棟大概也是過水等一下又跳到這一個這個院長的協商然後你們最終的目的就是這個上個禮拜我買了一個保險還不夠這個身份證聯署這個聯署要付身份證銀本那還不夠還不行要買雙保險再買一個保險就是報名要多一票"},{"start":2532.276,"end":2536.639,"text":"立法院朝野黨團協商：一、本院內政委員會報告審查委員翁曉玲等16人擬具〈公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案〉案"},{"start":2550.862,"end":2566.26,"text":"擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案案 案件,並且擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案 案件,並且擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案 案件,並且擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案 案件,並且擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案 案件,並且擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案 案件,並且擬具:「公職人員選舉罷"},{"start":2569.637,"end":2584.491,"text":"不同的法案每個委員有不同的意見我們都予以尊重大家可以暢所欲言許以珍委員可能優先然後接著張宏立委員接著再鄭天才委員謝謝主席"},{"start":2585.291,"end":2586.912,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案．事由．立法院朝野黨團協商．事由．立法院朝野黨團協商．事由．立法院朝野黨團協商"},{"start":2607.617,"end":2609.777,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案．事由．立法院朝野黨團協商．事由．立法院朝野黨團協商．事由．立法院朝野黨團協商．"},{"start":2632.902,"end":2636.248,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案：立法院朝野黨團協商：一、本院內政委員蘇清泉等17人擬具"},{"start":2647.571,"end":2649.633,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案：立法院朝野黨團協商：一、本院內政委員會報告審查委員翁曉玲等16人擬具"},{"start":2664.446,"end":2678.801,"text":"自於為什麼要提兩個不同的話,上個禮拜通過的這個是連署的條件的部分,因為我們都發覺很多連署都是造假、抄名冊還有死亡的連署,所以呢我們為什麼說要身份證影本,那是因為連署條件的問題。"},{"start":2680.603,"end":2681.343,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案：立法院朝野黨團協商：一、本院內政委員"},{"start":2697.01,"end":2711.544,"text":"當時我想在上個會期賴瑞榮郭國文兩位委員也都有提出相同的法案覺得不能讓少數的民意被這個多數的民意被少數否決所以這是兩個不同的這個案子不是什麼雙保險因為他是不同的概念一個是聯署的問題一個是罷免門檻能不能過的問題"},{"start":2715.788,"end":2732.163,"text":"基本上我想這個是我提案的這兩個不同時間提出的這個案子其實比較早提出是在上個會期一開始的時候就提出可是因為民進黨一直已經罷免主席台完全不讓我們討論所以一直拖到現在那當然我想徐欣穎、趙偉再度排案讓我們來討論那上個會期呢我想已經是那樣的一個狀況必須要還原一個真實的狀況"},{"start":2740.851,"end":2743.673,"text":"立法院朝野黨團協商：一、本院內政委員會報告審查委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案：一、本院內政委員"},{"start":2757.145,"end":2759.327,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案：立法院朝野黨團協商：一、本院內政委員會報告審查委員翁曉玲等23人擬具"},{"start":2778.707,"end":2779.328,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案 案"},{"start":2798.331,"end":2799.531,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案 案"},{"start":2816.275,"end":2816.955,"text":"蘇清泉等23人擬具"},{"start":2829.195,"end":2840.959,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案：一、本院內政委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案：一、本院內政委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案：一、本院內政委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案：一、本院內政委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條條條文修正草案：一、本院內政"},{"start":2854.184,"end":2868.249,"text":"但我們確實是被擋到我內政委員會的我我們不能進來在這個裡面其實全國也都知道是什麼原因但我們的意識我們那邊你不能讓我們變成我們沒有開會啊"},{"start":2869.983,"end":2880.285,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案：一、本院內政委員會報告審查委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案：一、本院內政委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案：一、本院內政委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案：一、本院內政委員會報告審查委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條"},{"start":2897.549,"end":2913.296,"text":"身為內政委員會的召委如果我遇到這樣我會想辦法把這個寫清楚因為我們內政委員會不管怎麼樣是確實是要進來開會沒有辦法開會那連上面的議事錄都寫我們都沒有來開會"},{"start":2915.097,"end":2937.826,"text":"這個對我們大家都知道我們身為立法委員我來了然後被寫成說我沒有來開會這是對我們非常大的不公平不管那一天會有沒有開成我們以前不管怎麼樣至少會讓人家簽到你簽完到再把他拖出去也是一件事情但不能說連簽到的機會都沒有我覺得這一點"},{"start":2938.871,"end":2940.932,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案案 案"},{"start":2963.171,"end":2966.453,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：立法院朝野黨團協商．事由：一、本院內政委員會報告審查委員楊曉玲等16人擬具"},{"start":2987.438,"end":2996.608,"text":"招委就是沒有辦法到他的位置因為都被霸佔了這個主席台而才會有現在的大家剛所講的"},{"start":2997.697,"end":3006.404,"text":"立法院朝野黨團協商．事由：一、本院內政委員副總裁翰勳等17人擬具〈公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案案〉案"},{"start":3027.632,"end":3028.273,"text":"蘇清泉等23人擬具"},{"start":3041.397,"end":3054.488,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案：一、本院內政委員楊曉玲等一、本院內政委員楊曉玲等一、本院內政委員楊曉玲等一、本院內政委員楊曉玲等一、本院內政委員楊曉玲等一、本院內政委員楊曉玲等一、本院內政委員楊曉玲等一、本院內政委員楊曉玲等一、本院內政委員楊曉玲等一、本院內政委員楊曉玲等一、本院內政委員楊曉玲等一、本院內政委員楊曉玲等一、本院內政委員楊曉玲等一、本院內政"},{"start":3070.503,"end":3072.105,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":3079.778,"end":3083.859,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案．事由．立法院朝野黨團協商．事由．立法院朝野黨團協商．"},{"start":3105.265,"end":3114.748,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案：一、本院內政委員會報告審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案．第六十九條條文修正草案．第六十九條條文修正草案．"},{"start":3130.677,"end":3135.081,"text":"王美惠委員王美惠委員王美惠委員王美惠委員王美惠委員"},{"start":3150.655,"end":3152.817,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案案 案"},{"start":3173.621,"end":3175.422,"text":"擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案：一、本院內政委員會報告審查委員翁曉玲等16人擬具"},{"start":3194.059,"end":3197.163,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":3206.377,"end":3207.658,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案：一、本院內政委員"},{"start":3229.855,"end":3231.496,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案案 。"},{"start":3256.188,"end":3261.35,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案 案。好那本席也簡單單回應這個確實我第八屆當立委第十一屆進來我發現很多很奇怪的事我一直在適應所以呢我也覺得很奇怪為什麼我當召委可以"},{"start":3284.036,"end":3295.784,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案：立法院朝野黨團報告審查委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案：立法院朝野黨團報告審查委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案：立法院朝野黨團報告審查委員翁曉玲等16人擬具"},{"start":3313.096,"end":3316.741,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":3325.916,"end":3342.943,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案：一、本院內政委員會報告審查委員楊曉玲等16人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案：一、本院內政委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案：一、本院內政委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案：一、本院內政委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條條條文修正草"},{"start":3354.727,"end":3358.791,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案．事由．立法院朝野黨團協商．事由．立法院朝野黨團協商"},{"start":3370.743,"end":3372.844,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案 案"},{"start":3400.922,"end":3406.607,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案．事由．立法院朝野黨團協商．事由．立法院朝野黨團協商．事由．立法院朝野黨團協商"},{"start":3424.301,"end":3426.742,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案 案"},{"start":3442.367,"end":3448.231,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案：一、本院內政委員楊曉玲等16人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案：一、本院內政委員楊曉玲等16人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案：一、本院內政委員楊曉玲等16人擬具"},{"start":3462.6,"end":3467.941,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案：一、本院內政委員會報告審查委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案：一、本院內政委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案：一、本院內政委員會報告審查委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案：一、本院內政委員會報告審查委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷"},{"start":3492.208,"end":3493.83,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案．事由．立法院朝野黨團協商．事由．立法院朝野黨團協商．事由．立法院朝野黨團協商．"},{"start":3515.831,"end":3521.053,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案．事由．立法院朝野黨團協商．事由．立法院朝野黨團協商．事由．立法院朝野黨團協商"},{"start":3534.184,"end":3559.972,"text":"所以我主張那一天的會議完全是非法而且無效的會議是不是在這邊請求大家我們不要讓這種破天荒的惡例變成是立法院的常態此例一開未來不得了每個人就是自己躲在角落說我們開會說了算如果每個召委都可以躲在角落說好我們自己一群人大家手拉手大家舉手說會議通過"},{"start":3561.232,"end":3563.703,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案：立法院朝野黨團協商：一、本院內政委員"},{"start":3566.485,"end":3592.023,"text":"然後剛剛其實鄭天才委員提到的那個例子一例一休後來就退回重審啦後來就回到委員會啦因為大家就是希望說要各退一步不要讓立法院變成這種有惡力的狀況出現嘛所以是不是大家我們回到委員會把今天這個協商今天協商開了也沒有意義了啦你們在這邊過水急著要過其實當家不要這樣子鬧事吧你們是多數欸"},{"start":3593.024,"end":3597.225,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案：一、本院內政委員會報告審查委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案：一、本院內政委員"},{"start":3612.546,"end":3639.312,"text":"做一個有格局願意來照顧所有立法院夥伴的召委嗎?把程序完備吧?把程序完備吧?是不是就退回委員會?重新好好審議?至少讓大家理解說現在到底在審什麼啊?像今天不只是審徐宇貞委員提的這個當選門檻加一,裡面有多少人的版本啊?還有包括我們陳冠廷委員的版本當天也都沒有被處理、沒有被討論,他甚至沒有辦法來提案說明耶!"},{"start":3641.673,"end":3658.846,"text":"好歹讓我們提案的委員來說明一下吧。翁曉玲還提了一個選前三天,十天改三天,欸這個受害者最深的是宋楚瑜耶。朝委宋楚瑜主席當時到現在的他還是無法釋懷,直到這一次的大選,"},{"start":3659.406,"end":3660.607,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案：一、本院內政委員"},{"start":3690.006,"end":3693.609,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案．事由．立法院朝野黨團協商．事由．立法院朝野黨團協商．"},{"start":3713.883,"end":3715.744,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案：一、本院內政委員"},{"start":3731.348,"end":3748.013,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案：一、本院內政委員國外的境外勢力要透過破壞選舉的制度來干預我們的選舉,那我們是不是應該更謹慎來討論每一次選舉的變革呢?在座大家都應該很珍視我們台灣民主的選舉制度才對。"},{"start":3749.253,"end":3752.534,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案：一、本院內政委員會報告審查委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案：一、本院內政委員"},{"start":3771.32,"end":3772.741,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案．事由．立法院朝野黨團協商．事由．立法院朝野黨團協商．"},{"start":3801.78,"end":3802.52,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":3824.426,"end":3850.702,"text":"選舉法在第一會期本屆的第一會期排兩次都沒辦法開會那這個會期排的第一次排案也是沒辦法開會所以這個到底是誰造成的我想你們也應該去面對這個問題然後再來就是裡面每一個議案因為這個真的要導正視聽啦大家必須要知道說在怎麼樣"},{"start":3853.184,"end":3871.796,"text":"擬事的杯葛也不能限制立委的人身自由來強硬的通過。」接下來第二點就是說我們每一個委員他提的法案我們都尊重所以每個人都可以充分表達"},{"start":3872.517,"end":3882.399,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案：立法院朝野黨團協商：一、本院內政委員楊曉玲等16人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案：立法院朝野黨團協商：立法院朝野黨團協商：立法院朝野黨團協商：立法院朝野黨團協商："},{"start":3904.05,"end":3904.89,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案 案"},{"start":3924.964,"end":3928.546,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案 案"},{"start":3954.083,"end":3956.904,"text":"民進黨最大民進黨講什麼都對別人講都不行"},{"start":3972.448,"end":3975.652,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案．事由．立法院朝野黨團協商．事由．立法院朝野黨團協商．"},{"start":3989.403,"end":3991.244,"text":"楊曉玲等16人擬具楊曉玲等16人擬具楊曉玲等16人擬具"},{"start":4014.94,"end":4018.282,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案：立法院朝野黨團協商：一、本院內政委員"},{"start":4039.141,"end":4042.724,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案：立法院朝野黨團協商：一、本院內政委員"},{"start":4047.478,"end":4057.72,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案：立法院朝野黨團協商：一、本院內政委員楊曉玲等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案：立法院朝野黨團協商：一、本院內政委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案：立法院朝野黨團協商：立法院朝野黨團協商：立法院朝野黨團協商："},{"start":4074.804,"end":4076.145,"text":"立法院朝野黨團協商．立法院內政委員"},{"start":4092.756,"end":4097.118,"text":"立法院朝野黨團協商：一、本院內政委員楊曉玲等16人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案：一、本院內政委員"},{"start":4115.325,"end":4124.172,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案：立法院朝野黨團協商：一、本院內政委員會報告審查委員楊曉玲等16人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案：立法院朝野黨團協商：立法院朝野黨團協商：立法院朝野黨團協商：立法院朝野黨團協商：立法院朝野黨團協商：立法院朝野黨團協商：立法院朝野黨團協商：立法院朝野黨團協商：立法院朝野黨團協商："},{"start":4136.201,"end":4137.541,"text":"選舉罷免法第五十二條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":4153.447,"end":4156.128,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案．事由．立法院朝野黨團協商．事由．立法院朝野黨團協商．事由．立法院朝野黨團協商．"},{"start":4181.495,"end":4182.816,"text":"立法院朝野黨團協商：一、本院內政委員"},{"start":4197.267,"end":4205.449,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案：立法院朝野黨團協商：一、本院內政委員蘇清泉等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案：立法院朝野黨團協商：立法院朝野黨團協商：立法院朝野黨團協商：立法院朝野黨團協商：立法院朝野黨團協商：立法院朝野黨團協商：立法院朝野黨團協商：立法院朝野黨團協商：立法院朝野黨團協商："},{"start":4227.333,"end":4230.395,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案．事由．立法院朝野黨團協商．事由．立法院朝野黨團擬具"},{"start":4254.721,"end":4280.914,"text":"基本上民眾黨麥玉珍我不知道他會不會再進來那看起來今天協商會變成只是過水所以我們還是在這個機會我們能用發言的時候還是要跟主席講如果你那一天主持議事那你看到民進黨沒有一個委員有辦法進來一場那你心裡沒有覺得奇怪那我想要請教主席的是為什麼官員一個都沒有進來我們今天在朝野協商官員也是來啊"},{"start":4286.176,"end":4310.51,"text":"更何況在委員會審查的時候官員更需要進來啊那天官員都沒有進來媒體朋友一個也沒進來所以主席我覺得不要睜眼說瞎話議事工房都有剛剛鄭天才委員舉了一例一休的時候我想一例一休的時候成就了誰成就了蔣萬安因為他佔領主席台一個人發言了兩個小時所有的媒體把他捧得很高"},{"start":4315.799,"end":4323.4,"text":"成就有獎忘案啊!大家都知道!那他也是在做他的意識攻防他不想讓民進黨開成會那當然後來民進黨我們用我們的方式我們希望可以把一例一休在當時完成修法但是當時雖然我們還很短的時間把他送出委員會但是國民黨一樣是有簽到一樣在意識路上國民黨是有出席的"},{"start":4345.814,"end":4355.819,"text":"那後來一例一休的處理怎樣?說因為民進黨在處理上時間太充足沒有讓大家充分發言後來經過朝野協商把他退回委員會這是一例一休的狀況後來還有一次是會計法的修法就是陳水扁總統在國務紀號費的一個狀況也是因為委員會處理有瑕疵後來還是把他退回委員會"},{"start":4373.919,"end":4374.92,"text":"擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":4386.038,"end":4389.099,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案．事由．立法院朝野黨團協商．事由．立法院朝野黨團協商．"},{"start":4405.728,"end":4417.101,"text":"我覺得主席你可以去思考這件事啦你光看那個議事錄我們大家都到了立法院這麼多內政委員會的同仁到了立法院結果他們這個議事錄他們是沒有來開會的是缺席的我覺得這樣起來事實上白白大家都來政委委員會你這樣對大家立法院同事有必要嗎"},{"start":4427.182,"end":4450.032,"text":"那我還是要回到我一開始講的就是說如果國民黨認為這個選罷法透過加嚴的程序來阻絕未來不要有這麼多罷免狀況的發生那你們也達成一半了啊而且這個一半也不能說一半他基本上已經讓未來在連署上有很高的難度基本上在連署這塊你們就可以看出已經很難了就不會有連署幾乎沒辦法成功了啦"},{"start":4456.803,"end":4486.038,"text":"那如果這樣的話那你們幹嘛還要急著現在有急著說你現在退回委員會那你退回委員會未來再審查頂多再慢一點程序啊退回委員會完審查過了再回到二三讀你們還是可以達到你們最後要三讀的目的啊結果你不是啊主席你今天用這樣過水式的協商然後你要把這件事到了院長的協商後就要把它二三讀了"},{"start":4488.066,"end":4491.968,"text":"我講你這樣起來,你這個委員會的瑕疵長在那裡你也是逼著我們未來在院會處理的時候,我們要再控制一下因為你這個瑕疵長在這裡,我們怎麼可能去背書你這個瑕疵啊對吧,大家都沒辦法在那裡開會,你叫我們一號,我們要二、三度的時候,我們去背書這個瑕疵嗎"},{"start":4510.711,"end":4526.443,"text":"所以我覺得主席我覺得你可以發揮你的高度12月16也許你沒有期待到說我們的人會被阻絕在外面你覺得說是我們比較慢進來但是你應該也注意到官員也沒進來啊他確實他的問題都長在那裡嘛"},{"start":4533.138,"end":4534.379,"text":"公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案：一、本院內政委員"},{"start":4550.322,"end":4552.023,"text":"立法院朝野黨團協商：一、本院內政委員"},{"start":4570.663,"end":4574.205,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案案。」"},{"start":4602.224,"end":4608.108,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案．事由．立法院朝野黨團協商．事由．立法院朝野黨團協商．"},{"start":4628.2,"end":4632.807,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案：立法院朝野黨團協商：立法院內政委員楊曉玲等17人擬具"},{"start":4638.345,"end":4643.329,"text":"立法院朝野黨團協商．事由：一、本院內政委員楊曉玲等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案．事由．一、本院內政委員楊曉玲等17人擬具"},{"start":4662.202,"end":4664.544,"text":"蘇清泉等23人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":4681.26,"end":4700.051,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案：事由：一、本院內政委員會報告審查委員楊曉玲等16人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案：事由：一、本院內政委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案：事由：一、本院內政委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條條條文修正草案：事由：事由：事由：事由：事由：事由："},{"start":4708.749,"end":4711.857,"text":"選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案案。"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T14:55:19+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:55:22.916280+08:00","text":"現在開始開會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T14:55:22.916280+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:55:26.832560+08:00","text":"各位委員，大家好。","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T14:55:26.832560+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:55:30.748840+08:00","text":"今天我們協商的議題是國土計畫法，由於國土計畫法攸關人民的權益，\n因此社會也是高度關切。","quality":0.026},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T14:55:30.748840+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:55:34.665120+08:00","text":"我們在今年 10 月 24 日召開國土計畫法修正草案的公聽會、也在 11 月\n7 日進行國土計畫法修正草案的第一次初步審查會議、最後在 11 月 21 日進行國土計畫法修正草\n案的審查，而且審查完竣，送出委員會。","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T14:55:34.665120+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:55:38.581400+08:00","text":"關於本次的協商，在此向各位報告。","quality":0.071},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T14:55:38.581400+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:55:42.497681+08:00","text":"國土計畫法第七條、第二十三條、第三十五條及第四十\n條均在 11 月 21 日內政委員會審議決議修正通過，原則上，針對這四條請問各黨團能否認同依委\n員會的決議作為本次協商會議的決議，大家等一下都可以表達意見。","quality":0.057},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T14:55:42.497681+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:55:46.413961+08:00","text":"第八條的部分，國土署有\n建議的文字，請委員們參考。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T14:55:46.413961+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:55:50.330241+08:00","text":"第四十五條就是延期條款，委員會保留，等一下也請各黨團以及\n各位委員們發表高見，看看今天的協商能否達到共識。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T14:55:50.330241+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:55:54.246521+08:00","text":"另外有第三十二條之一，關於農地發展\n權的部分，它是逕付二讀的法案，這次也併案協商，等一下我們會請提案人許宇甄委員說明、\n198\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄\n也會請主管機關回應，以上是今天協商大致需要處理的條文概況。","quality":0.011},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T14:55:54.246521+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:55:58.162801+08:00","text":"依例本席先介紹在場委員以及行政機關列席的代表，首先是在場的鄭天財委員、麥玉珍委員\n、許宇甄委員，蔡易餘委員，請問你在民進黨團的職稱是什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T14:55:58.162801+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:56:02.079081+08:00","text":"書記長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T14:56:02.079081+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:56:05.995361+08:00","text":"蔡易餘書記長及林岱樺委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T14:56:05.995361+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:56:09.911641+08:00","text":"接下來是今天出席的行政官員：內政部部長劉世芳、內政部政務次長董建宏、農業部政務次\n長胡忠一、內政部國土署署長吳欣修、經濟部綜合規劃司副司長許嘉玲、原民會副主委杜張梅\n莊、財政部的 2 位專門委員張婕又及何惠莉，法務部參事廖江憲、國家科學及技術委員會產學\n及園區業務處副處長陳昭蓉、行政院主計總處專門委員戴群芳。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T14:56:09.911641+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:56:13.827921+08:00","text":"現在是不是先請各位委員發表意見？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T14:56:13.827921+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:56:17.744201+08:00","text":"或是依照本席剛剛所講的，在委員會已經照案通過審查\n結果的第七條、第二十三條、第三十五條及第四十條，這四條是不是就依照委員會……\n請鄭天財委員。","quality":0.081},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T14:56:17.744201+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:56:21.660482+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：請大家看一下修正條文，第二十三條第三項的「前項規則中涉及原住民\n族土地及部落之使用管制者」這句話，因為現行條文是「原住民族土地及海域」，本席當初提\n出的修正條文是在「原住民族土地、海域」的後面加上「部落及部落周邊一定範圍土地之使用\n管制者」，上次協商的時候，大家針對「部落周邊一定範圍」的認定比較有顧慮，但是這個條\n文也不是新創出來的，而是在現行原住民族基本法第二十一條的文字，但大家還是對「部落周\n邊一定範圍」有顧慮，因此就將「部落周邊一定範圍」刪除，至於現行條文中原來已有的「海\n域」，我建議應該還是要留著。","quality":0.013},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T14:56:21.660482+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:56:25.576762+08:00","text":"上次是大家對「部落周邊一定範圍」比較有疑慮才予以刪除，\n但「海域」是不是能夠留著？","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T14:56:25.576762+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:56:29.493042+08:00","text":"所以是「原住民族土地、海域及部落之使用管制者」，以上。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T14:56:29.493042+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:56:33.409322+08:00","text":"行政單位是否要回應？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T14:56:33.409322+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:56:37.325602+08:00","text":"請原民會副主委。","quality":0},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2024-12-26T14:56:37.325602+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:56:41.241882+08:00","text":"在此向委員說明，一開始是有「海域」這樣的文字，但是在上次協調時我們\n已經向委員說明，委員是希望要加上「部落周邊一定範圍」的部分，當時並沒有特別說一定要\n將「海域」也放進去，當然原條文是有這個文字，而且放進去對於整個使用管制是有幫助，但\n是在實務上要針對海域做一些管制，可能涉及的層面會更廣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2024-12-26T14:56:41.241882+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:56:45.158162+08:00","text":"我們的意見是如果要保留它的話\n，可能還要再評估是否訂得出「海域」的部分，因為目前傳統海域的劃設事實上還沒有一個具\n體的範圍。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T14:56:45.158162+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:56:49.074442+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：我建議「海域」還是留著，但是你們與內政部已經研擬的使用管制規則\n目前還用不到「海域」，因此就先不訂在使用管制規則裡了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2024-12-26T14:56:49.074442+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:56:52.990722+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T14:56:52.990722+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:56:56.907002+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：因為這是現行的條文、現行的條文，只要在現行條文將「部落」加上去\n就可以了，以上。","quality":0},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2024-12-26T14:56:56.907002+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:57:00.823283+08:00","text":"委員，第三十五條第一項也要一併調整嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2024-12-26T14:57:00.823283+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:57:04.739563+08:00","text":"委員，它是國土復育區，並沒有\n涉及海域，所以那個不需要。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T14:57:04.739563+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:57:08.655843+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：那個沒有關係。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T14:57:08.655843+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:57:12.572123+08:00","text":"199\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2024-12-26T14:57:12.572123+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:57:16.488403+08:00","text":"好，謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T14:57:16.488403+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:57:20.404683+08:00","text":"第二十三條是否就照剛才鄭天財委員所說的把「海域」加上去？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T14:57:20.404683+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:57:24.320963+08:00","text":"關於第二十三條，我看到鄭委員的版本除了土地、海域，還加上「部落及部落周邊一\n定範圍」，這個「部落周邊一定範圍」就是……","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T14:57:24.320963+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:57:28.237243+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：那個 OK，拿掉了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T14:57:28.237243+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:57:32.153523+08:00","text":"只有部落？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T14:57:32.153523+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:57:36.069803+08:00","text":"我想這個部分還是要讓主管機關表示意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T14:57:36.069803+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:57:39.986084+08:00","text":"請大家看一下螢幕，我們把正在討論溝通的結果 show 出來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T14:57:39.986084+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:57:43.902364+08:00","text":"鄭委員提出除了「土地」之外\n，還要加上「海域」。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T14:57:43.902364+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:57:47.818644+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：現行條文還留著。","quality":0},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2024-12-26T14:57:47.818644+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:57:51.734924+08:00","text":"當然，一般來講，我們的法律體例是現在有的話，在土管就一定要有，但現\n在的狀況是在土管根本不會有，我們也是擔心這樣的體例出來之後，變成到時候又要再加訂，\n所以我認為是不是確定可以再一起處理就好，否則在體例上就會對不起來？","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T14:57:51.734924+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:57:55.651204+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：因為現行條文就有。","quality":0},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2024-12-26T14:57:55.651204+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:57:59.567484+08:00","text":"我知道，沒有具體的管制對象，這樣怪怪的！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T14:57:59.567484+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:58:03.483764+08:00","text":"這個部分你們要不要再溝通一下，我們可以先往下進行。","quality":0},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2024-12-26T14:58:03.483764+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:58:07.400044+08:00","text":"如果沒有「海域」的話，現在其實都還行得通，我是認為到時候有具體需求\n再一起處理，看委員認為怎麼樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T14:58:07.400044+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:58:11.316324+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：可是要修不是那麼容易。","quality":0},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2024-12-26T14:58:11.316324+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:58:15.232604+08:00","text":"相對要是有計劃書或什麼的話，其實都還來得及加啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T14:58:15.232604+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:58:19.148885+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：因為現行條文有，我們把它刪除……我們認為要讓它更好就是加上「部\n落」，因為部落確實是需要的嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T14:58:19.148885+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:58:23.065165+08:00","text":"主席，基本上，鄭委員認為這個部分要加上「部落」，如果主管機關也認為可以的話\n，我們就沒什麼意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T14:58:23.065165+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:58:26.981445+08:00","text":"就「海域」的部分，因為涉及到它的管制對象，剛剛主管機關好像也有\n一些疑慮的地方，我認為這個部分是不是可以先保留，未來在院長的朝野協商時再做進一步的\n溝通？","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T14:58:26.981445+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:58:30.897725+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：如果還要再協商，那就先保留，沒有關係啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T14:58:30.897725+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:58:34.814005+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：內政部與原民會已經針對使用管制規則溝通協調很多次，而且你們也是\n依照現行條文訂定，「海域」還是在那邊啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T14:58:34.814005+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:58:38.730285+08:00","text":"所以不要太堅持，我們只是把「部落」放進去，\n並沒有影響到你們啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T14:58:38.730285+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:58:42.646565+08:00","text":"主席，可不可以讓原民會講個話？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T14:58:42.646565+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:58:46.562845+08:00","text":"好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T14:58:46.562845+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:58:50.479125+08:00","text":"原民會，你怎麼看？","quality":0},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2024-12-26T14:58:50.479125+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:58:54.395405+08:00","text":"剛剛我已經表達過，原本的條文是有「海域」，上一次委員就說「海域」是\n200\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄\n拿掉的……","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T14:58:54.395405+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:58:58.311686+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：部落。","quality":0},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2024-12-26T14:58:58.311686+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:59:02.227966+08:00","text":"上一次協調時是拿掉的，現在是因為原本的條文有「海域」，我們其實也與\n內政部正在協調相關子法的部分。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T14:59:02.227966+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:59:06.144246+08:00","text":"你自己認不認為應該把「海域」及「部落」放進去？","quality":0},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2024-12-26T14:59:06.144246+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:59:10.060526+08:00","text":"我們認為「海域」及「部落」放進去是 OK 的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T14:59:10.060526+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:59:13.976806+08:00","text":"你自己是原住民，你認為這個國土計畫區納入的話，是否會更便於、更明確的讓你執\n行部落及海域的輔導或管理？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T14:59:13.976806+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:59:17.893086+08:00","text":"身為原民會的主管機關，你自己要表達你們現況的管理面、輔導\n面，像這樣明確的落入文字是不是有需要？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T14:59:17.893086+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:59:21.809366+08:00","text":"如果真的有需要，誠如國土署署長所言，因為體例\n的關係，它就去改變啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T14:59:21.809366+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:59:25.725646+08:00","text":"既然這是一個大法令，國土署就會依照原民會的意見去定義什麼是海\n域以及海域的範圍。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T14:59:25.725646+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:59:29.641926+08:00","text":"包括部落，我們一直講的，是否需要在國土計畫法相關的子法當中再明確\n的定義，既然你本身是主管機關就要表達。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T14:59:29.641926+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:59:33.558206+08:00","text":"至於那個內容定義的部分，你可以讓國土署參考你\n所謂的定義，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T14:59:33.558206+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:59:37.474486+08:00","text":"你再明確的講一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2024-12-26T14:59:37.474486+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:59:41.390767+08:00","text":"針對海域的部分，我們之前協調的時候，在使用管制規則寫了一條關於海域\n的條文。","quality":0},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2024-12-26T14:59:41.390767+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:59:45.307047+08:00","text":"它也是延續原基法的精神，非營利使用的採集是免申請的，類似這樣的條文，在目前\n我們協調的管制規則是有這個部分，因此，如果以當時的協調版本而言，在法源裡放入「海域\n」，其實我們是認同的、是可以的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T14:59:45.307047+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:59:49.223327+08:00","text":"部落呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2024-12-26T14:59:49.223327+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:59:53.139607+08:00","text":"部落本來就在裡面了、本來就有了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T14:59:53.139607+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T14:59:57.055887+08:00","text":"你們是否認為「周邊」也應該要拿掉？","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T14:59:57.055887+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:00:00.972167+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：周邊拿掉。","quality":0},{"speaker":"杜副主任委員張梅莊","start":"2024-12-26T15:00:00.972167+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:00:04.888447+08:00","text":"「一定範圍」是我們向委員說希望拿掉，因為那個界址不好區隔。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T15:00:04.888447+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:00:08.804727+08:00","text":"建議主席，原民會畢竟是有原民在，如果主管機關都認同，我覺得就放入啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T15:00:08.804727+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:00:12.721007+08:00","text":"只是國\n土署認為內容有哪裡不宜，譬如他認為海域的部分依體例不同，剛剛他講了一個什麼法是沒有\n規範的，那樣就是加進去而已，而且那個是行政作為，他們自己可以處理的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:00:12.721007+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:00:16.637287+08:00","text":"林委員是認同鄭天財委員加上「海域」嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T15:00:16.637287+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:00:20.553568+08:00","text":"對，今天最主要是主管機關的意見，因為它本身是原住民委員會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T15:00:20.553568+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:00:24.469848+08:00","text":"如果主管機關都說\n應該要有，也就是民意與主管機關都認同，我認為是不是就應該要放入？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T15:00:24.469848+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:00:28.386128+08:00","text":"況且國土計畫法的文\n字是可以增列的、國土署是可以增列的。謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-12-26T15:00:28.386128+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:00:32.302408+08:00","text":"第二十三條的第一段是處理禁止與限制使用，剛剛我問過原民會，他們認為在\n海域裡大概只有採集或其他的捕撈。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-12-26T15:00:32.302408+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:00:36.218688+08:00","text":"但是我們講海域的部分，在內政部與原民會的主管之外，\n其實還會有國防部的海軍或海洋委員會在海巡上需要處理的區域，也就是說，有海的部分、有\n陸的部分或是有島礁的部分都是要做一個比較嚴格的定義。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-12-26T15:00:36.218688+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:00:40.134968+08:00","text":"目前為止，因為今天出席的就是我\n們內政部與原民會，所以我們認為是不是先把它放到保留的部分？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-12-26T15:00:40.134968+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:00:44.051248+08:00","text":"我的意思是把它放進去變成\n201\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄\n太多的限制、太多的禁止都不是好事，因此提案的鄭委員能否給一點時間？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-12-26T15:00:44.051248+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:00:47.967528+08:00","text":"剛剛我們蔡易餘書\n記長也特別提到給我們一點時間再思考一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-12-26T15:00:47.967528+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:00:51.883808+08:00","text":"我們都知道有一些是屬於海洋性原民部落的需求\n，把他們的需求放到原民土管的部分後，我們一定會照這樣的方向處理，但是現在放進去會牽\n涉到其他部會，我們就這樣更動是不太好。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T15:00:51.883808+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:00:55.800088+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：不是新放的，而是原本就有了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-12-26T15:00:55.800088+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:00:59.716369+08:00","text":"不是，我知道……","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T15:00:59.716369+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:01:03.632649+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：是原本就有了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-12-26T15:01:03.632649+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:01:07.548929+08:00","text":"我知道，但是它在這一條裡面並不是放寬，你要注意看一下！","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-12-26T15:01:07.548929+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:01:11.465209+08:00","text":"因此，我認為這個部分\n要多加思考。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T15:01:11.465209+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:01:15.381489+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：這條條文原本就有「海域」，現行條文就有了。","quality":0.1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:01:15.381489+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:01:19.297769+08:00","text":"如果行政單位與提案委員還無法取得共識……","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T15:01:19.297769+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:01:23.214049+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：就保留吧！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:01:23.214049+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:01:27.130329+08:00","text":"第二十三條就保留，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:01:27.130329+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:01:31.046609+08:00","text":"原本第二十三條是要修正，現在就是先保留。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:01:31.046609+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:01:34.962889+08:00","text":"接下來要確定第\n七條、第三十五條及第四十條是否依照之前內政委員會審查的結果？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:01:34.962889+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:01:38.879170+08:00","text":"大家有沒有意見？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:01:38.879170+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:01:42.795450+08:00","text":"召委，不好意思！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:01:42.795450+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:01:46.711730+08:00","text":"基本上，國土計畫法的這些條文在委員會都做過審查，但是有一些條文是不是可以在\n朝野協商時一併討論？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:01:46.711730+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:01:50.628010+08:00","text":"所以我們是主張……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:01:50.628010+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:01:54.544290+08:00","text":"對，雖然在委員會已經通過，我們也都予以尊重，但我們還是希望在朝野協商時一併\n討論這些條文。對。謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:01:54.544290+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:01:58.460570+08:00","text":"原則上，目前第七條、第二十三條、第三十五條、第四十條就保留。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:01:58.460570+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:02:02.376850+08:00","text":"接下來討論第八條，國土署有建議的文字，請委員們參考，看大家有沒有什麼意見？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:02:02.376850+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:02:06.293130+08:00","text":"請國土署說明建議文字。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2024-12-26T15:02:06.293130+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:02:10.209410+08:00","text":"建議文字就是將原條文增列的第三大項修正為「直轄市、縣（市）政府主管機關擬訂\n直轄市、縣（市）國土計畫時，得辦理鄉村地區整體規劃，並視實際需要，研擬鄉村地區計畫\n，納入直轄市、縣（市）國土計畫，並得另以附冊的方式定之」，之前鄉村地區整體規劃原本\n的作業方式是擬訂之後再納入通盤檢討，因為地方政府希望有一個明確且快速的執行，我們也\n認同地方政府的確有做鄉村地區整體規劃，並且明定它的執行方式，所以我們建議強化第八條\n條文的執行效力，直接放進去並得以附冊的方式定之，也就是讓它很明確。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2024-12-26T15:02:10.209410+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:02:14.125690+08:00","text":"如果這本規劃報告\n經過審查後確實是有能夠明確執行的方式，它就可以另以附冊方式定之，不用再通盤檢討逐一\n202\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄\n載明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:02:14.125690+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:02:18.041971+08:00","text":"謝謝吳署長的說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:02:18.041971+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:02:21.958251+08:00","text":"請問在座委員對第八條有沒有意見？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:02:21.958251+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:02:25.874531+08:00","text":"請許宇甄委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T15:02:25.874531+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:02:29.790811+08:00","text":"我認同國土署的意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:02:29.790811+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:02:33.707091+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:02:33.707091+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:02:37.623371+08:00","text":"我認為第八條是不是也與其他條文一樣保留送協商？謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T15:02:37.623371+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:02:41.539651+08:00","text":"我認同國土署的意見，地方政府訂有鄉村地區整體規劃及明確執行方式者，如果有需\n要也可以納入直轄市、縣（市）國土計畫，等於是給予有鄉村的縣市政府明確的依據，我個人\n是很支持的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:02:41.539651+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:02:45.455931+08:00","text":"好，謝謝林岱樺委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:02:45.455931+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:02:49.372211+08:00","text":"還有沒有其他委員要表達意見？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:02:49.372211+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:02:53.288491+08:00","text":"如果沒有的話，第八條也保留。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:02:53.288491+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:02:57.204771+08:00","text":"請董次長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"董次長建宏","start":"2024-12-26T15:02:57.204771+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:03:01.121052+08:00","text":"報告委員，我們還是希望第八條能夠照審查通過，其實我們對於各縣市政府都有補助\n相關的鄉規，大家也都進行到一定程度，包括雲林縣、嘉義縣、高雄市、新北市、桃園市及澎\n湖都有給予補助。","quality":0},{"speaker":"董次長建宏","start":"2024-12-26T15:03:01.121052+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:03:05.037332+08:00","text":"因此，我們希望透過法令入法讓這些已經在進行的案子可以很快以附冊的方\n式放入國土計畫，這樣就可以保障地方的權益，還是懇請委員給予我們支持，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:03:05.037332+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:03:08.953612+08:00","text":"我認為這個部分還是保留送協商，大家可以再充分的討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:03:08.953612+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:03:12.869892+08:00","text":"第八條也保留。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:03:12.869892+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:03:16.786172+08:00","text":"接下來討論第四十五條，有關是否要延期的部分，請國土署說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2024-12-26T15:03:16.786172+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:03:20.702452+08:00","text":"關於第四十五條，到目前截止已經有 16 個縣市政府繳交，我們也已經完成了 9 個國\n土計畫的審查。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2024-12-26T15:03:20.702452+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:03:24.618732+08:00","text":"就行政單位而言，我們這幾年都是依據法律規定持續進行，希望能讓我們努力\n完成國土計畫，所以我們行政單位當然還是希望這個部分能夠如期。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:03:24.618732+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:03:28.535012+08:00","text":"請董次長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:03:28.535012+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:03:32.451292+08:00","text":"先讓行政單位說明完畢，再請委員們發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"董次長建宏","start":"2024-12-26T15:03:32.451292+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:03:36.367572+08:00","text":"我也補充說明一下，除了已經繳交的 16 個縣市之外，這幾天我們也積極與幾位地方\n縣市首長直接通電話，包括雲林縣張縣長、南投縣許縣長、新北市劉副市長、臺中市黃副市長\n及彰化縣王縣長，他們都直接承諾會在年底之前繳交國土計畫，當然我們還是會積極努力，希\n望能夠盡量讓我們將這個攸關整個國家重大國土空間的計畫如期完成。","quality":0},{"speaker":"董次長建宏","start":"2024-12-26T15:03:36.367572+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:03:40.283853+08:00","text":"當然我們也同意，一旦\n送進來經過審查之後，可以馬上啟動通盤檢討，透過啟動通盤檢討針對大家提出疑義的部分進\n行進一步的修正。","quality":0},{"speaker":"董次長建宏","start":"2024-12-26T15:03:40.283853+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:03:44.200133+08:00","text":"事實上，雲林縣張縣長也告訴我，她送過來的草案就是把他們已經修訂好包\n括農 1、農 2 的空間轉換都送過來，我們也承諾會依照地方特色進行審查，希望能夠爭取委員們\n的支持，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T15:03:44.200133+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:03:48.116413+08:00","text":"主席，我是要談高金素梅委員的修正動議。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T15:03:48.116413+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:03:52.032693+08:00","text":"目前報部審議完成的已經有 16 個縣市，\n事實上，他們可以先施行，畢竟 2015 年就已經完成立法，到現在已經將近十年了，在這種狀況\n203\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄\n之下，是不是能夠讓報部且審議完成的先行？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T15:03:52.032693+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:03:55.948973+08:00","text":"只要修正一個文字，將「一併公告」的「一併」\n拿掉，大家就可以分階段，準備好的先行，這是高金素梅委員的修正動議。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:03:55.948973+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:03:59.865253+08:00","text":"還有沒有其他委員？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:03:59.865253+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:04:03.781533+08:00","text":"請許宇甄委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:04:03.781533+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:04:07.697813+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:04:07.697813+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:04:11.614093+08:00","text":"關於國土計畫法是不是要展延，事實上，糧食安全應該是由全國一起負擔\n，不應該由農業縣或農民承擔所有的責任，因此我認為現在這些農業縣市的癥結點是政府針對\n農民的損失並沒有提出相關的配套措施，譬如針對他們的特別犧牲該給予什麼樣的補償。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:04:11.614093+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:04:15.530373+08:00","text":"這個\n國土計畫法的立法也已經超過八年了，相關機關也還沒辦提出良好對策及補償方案，既然政府\n要限制農地的使用方式，應該就要給予農民補償，我認為這樣做對於辛苦工作的農民才有保障\n。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:04:15.530373+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:04:19.446654+08:00","text":"為了要保障農民的權益，還是應該等到相關機關提出保障農民權益的相關修法，所以我們希\n望能夠展延，至於展延的年限都可以討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:04:19.446654+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:04:23.362934+08:00","text":"剛剛董次長也特別提到幾個農業縣市的縣市長都承\n諾在年底之前、12 月 31 日之前會提出，其實他們的如期提出是希望這段時間還是要針對農業、\n農民的損失提出賠償或對策的方案，並不是提出就代表對這部法沒有意見，只是不希望變成全\n國好像只有誰沒有提出，因此還是希望針對這個部分提出相關的配套措施，以上。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:04:23.362934+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:04:27.279214+08:00","text":"請問還有沒有其他意見？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:04:27.279214+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:04:31.195494+08:00","text":"請蔡書記長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:04:31.195494+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:04:35.111774+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:04:35.111774+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:04:39.028054+08:00","text":"我們看到第四十五條有很多的版本，有的版本希望再展延、也有的版本有\n其他不同的意見，其實我自己也有一個版本。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:04:39.028054+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:04:42.944334+08:00","text":"我們都知道，未來國土計畫法正式上路之後，農\n業縣將面臨土地利用遭到限制的狀況，基本上，我本來很期待這次財劃法討論統籌分配的計算\n標準應該針對每個縣市承擔的國土保育區或農業發展區的土地比例，讓負責更多糧食安全或負\n責更多水源供給的縣市拿到更多的統籌分配，很可惜，事實上我提的財劃法在財政委員會都沒\n有被討論，在三讀後也沒有把糧食安全及水源地的標準列在統籌分配評分的配比，所以我自己\n這個提案與財劃法的連動看起來是遙遙無期，可能也無法被處理到。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:04:42.944334+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:04:46.860614+08:00","text":"在這樣的情況之下，何況\n還有其他這麼多委員的版本，而且爭議最大的大概就是第四十五條，因此我還是主張保留送朝\n野協商，大家再來做通盤的討論，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:04:46.860614+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:04:50.776894+08:00","text":"請林岱樺委員，下一位是林淑芬委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T15:04:50.776894+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:04:54.693174+08:00","text":"我也贊成送交朝野協商討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T15:04:54.693174+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:04:58.609455+08:00","text":"以我們高雄市而言，整個東高雄旗美地區 9 區的人口流\n失非常嚴重，出生率已經降到 3.77%，60 歲以上的占比是 34.41%，聽好，60 歲以上是占 34.41%\n喔！","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T15:04:58.609455+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:05:02.525735+08:00","text":"一個高雄市的城鄉差距是這麼大！","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T15:05:02.525735+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:05:06.442015+08:00","text":"現在要處理非都市計畫內的農地問題，也就是在高雄市\n之後更限制了整個農地占最多的東高雄非都市計畫內的農地。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T15:05:06.442015+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:05:10.358295+08:00","text":"對於城鄉發展的部分，是否能夠\n適一性的進行產業發展、增加就業機會，在所有相關的配套沒有講清楚之前，本席反對國土計\n畫法的通過。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T15:05:10.358295+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:05:14.274575+08:00","text":"如果國土計畫法中的配套沒有提出就是延期，必須要讓配套重於主計畫。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T15:05:14.274575+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:05:18.190855+08:00","text":"再來，國土計畫法要達到的目的是什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T15:05:18.190855+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:05:22.107135+08:00","text":"我們說要糧食安全，就以現況來看，在這個通過之\n後，糧食安全的自給率是下降的，農 1 的面積是少於區域計畫法中的特定農業區，原本約有 3\n萬到 4 萬公頃的河川地，在不影響防洪的前提下，長期作為農業使用，可說是臺灣重要的蔬菜\n204\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄\n、花卉產地，現在卻要被列為國土保育區。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T15:05:22.107135+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:05:26.023415+08:00","text":"在都市計畫下 10 萬公頃的農地當中，農業部也曾經\n盤點有將近 3 萬公頃優良農地應放在農業發展地區的第五類，但最後各縣市政府卻以一句「城\n市發展需求」將大部分符合完整且高比例農用條件的農地放入城鄉發展地區，該放的不放，目\n前有農作不該放的，你要放。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T15:05:26.023415+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:05:29.939695+08:00","text":"上述三個地區加總就超過 10 萬公頃的面積，而且是重要的生產農\n地，卻未被列入優良農地的範圍，這樣的農業發展地區劃設恐讓臺灣的農業生產力降低，導致\n糧食生產自主力下降，造成糧食安全的風險。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T15:05:29.939695+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:05:33.855975+08:00","text":"再來，農地管理及品質有沒有提升？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T15:05:33.855975+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:05:37.772256+08:00","text":"我認為沒有！","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T15:05:37.772256+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:05:41.688536+08:00","text":"如果這個法通過，農業部原先依據全國國\n土計畫法劃設模擬的農 1 面積是 33 萬 7,000 公頃，但各縣市政府提報的農 1 面積是多少？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T15:05:41.688536+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:05:45.604816+08:00","text":"27 萬\n7,000 公頃，相較之下少了 6 萬公頃、少了 6 萬公頃耶！","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T15:05:45.604816+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:05:49.521096+08:00","text":"倘若土地管理制度沒有合理的配套處理\n，一定造成農業生產力的下降。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T15:05:49.521096+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:05:53.437376+08:00","text":"再來是阻礙農業發展，許多農業休閒地區或農場被劃為國土保育地區，限縮了具百億產值的\n休閒農場發展。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T15:05:53.437376+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:05:57.353656+08:00","text":"如果以為將山坡地直接劃為國土保育區就達到保育的目標，而不細緻區分敏感\n程度及影響輕重，除了劃設成果，完全與事實有嚴重的落差、也可能造成保育與農業雙輸。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T15:05:57.353656+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:06:01.269936+08:00","text":"高\n雄市的原高雄縣地區是屬於農業重鎮，原高雄縣是原高雄市的 19 倍面積耶！","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T15:06:01.269936+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:06:05.186216+08:00","text":"我們的配套及劃分\n的細膩性是沒有的！","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2024-12-26T15:06:05.186216+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:06:09.102496+08:00","text":"針對這個部分，我站在全高雄市民希望城鄉均衡發展、高屏共榮、城鄉更\n好的理念之下，如果配套沒有百分百的提出來，本席反對現有的規劃要馬上通過，所以我建議\n延期，也贊成保留協商，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:06:09.102496+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:06:13.018776+08:00","text":"謝謝林岱樺委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:06:13.018776+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:06:16.935057+08:00","text":"這個部分討論了那麼久，怎麼高雄的委員都還對國土計畫法有這麼多的意\n見，感覺還不是很 OK，所以本席希望行政單位能夠多溝通。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:06:16.935057+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:06:20.851337+08:00","text":"接下來請林淑芬委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T15:06:20.851337+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:06:24.767617+08:00","text":"各位，2015 年要立法時就考慮到對地方、對行政以及對農業地區的人會有很大的衝\n擊，所以我們給了至少 8 年的準備期，並不是一完成立法就馬上要怎麼樣，其實並沒有。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T15:06:24.767617+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:06:28.683897+08:00","text":"或許\n大家認為 8 年不夠，但看起來至少有 16 個縣市認為足夠了，所以他們已經送出來、也已經完成\n審議。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T15:06:28.683897+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:06:32.600177+08:00","text":"我的意思是認為不夠的人可以想個辦法，也就是脫鉤嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T15:06:32.600177+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:06:36.516457+08:00","text":"已經完成審議的人就先行，認\n為不夠的人想慢慢來就慢慢來，不要對其訂定期限，否則，你訂 6 年、訂 8 年，可能讓已經準\n備好的人因此不能施行。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T15:06:36.516457+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:06:40.432737+08:00","text":"我們是不是能夠務實的討論，把「一併」這個字眼拿掉？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T15:06:40.432737+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:06:44.349017+08:00","text":"前面的到底是要幾年或是不要匡幾\n年限縮死了，可能四年後中央指定施行日期等等，總之就是不要一併，而是分階段，準備好的\n人就先行，這樣是很務實的作法，否則，你現在訂了 8 年、訂了 6 年，反而還讓準備好的人不\n能上路。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T15:06:44.349017+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:06:48.265297+08:00","text":"在這種狀況下，有可能準備好的地方為了搶過渡時期，農地會持續流失及破碎化，無\n法維持一個合理的運用。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T15:06:48.265297+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:06:52.181577+08:00","text":"大家都搶個案變更，而且個案變更的申請數量已經暴增，的確都是暴\n增了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T15:06:52.181577+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:06:56.097857+08:00","text":"今天除了各別縣市之外，還要考慮全國的國土規劃，事實上，國土計畫法並不是洪水猛\n獸，其實也有很多縣市因為國土計畫法通過之後有可能增加自給規劃、也因為有彈性，譬如可\n以因地方特殊需求訂出管制規則，像是阿里山鄉的阿里山民宿區、雲林的寺廟專區等等，而且\n也允許一些新建農舍等相關設施，並不是完全沒有彈性。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T15:06:56.097857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:07:00.014138+08:00","text":"但是，主張這樣就無法個案變更，或\n205\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄\n是想要維持個案變更的，沒關係，你就慢一點，我們讓準備好的先行，因此，高金素梅委員才\n會提出修正動議。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T15:07:00.014138+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:07:03.930418+08:00","text":"大家是不是先討論我們贊不贊成分階段、準備好的先行？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T15:07:03.930418+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:07:07.846698+08:00","text":"分階段讓準備好的先行，文字該怎\n麼修才是最恰當的？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T15:07:07.846698+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:07:11.762978+08:00","text":"對於沒有準備好的，我們也不要強迫它，但是文字要怎麼修，可以讓他們\n不被強迫？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T15:07:11.762978+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:07:15.679258+08:00","text":"這樣的討論是退而求其次啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T15:07:15.679258+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:07:19.595538+08:00","text":"大家都不要將它鎖死，也不要鎖死就是現在馬上、也\n不鎖死一定要規定 6 年、8 年以後，我們就讓準備好的先行，這樣要怎麼處理？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T15:07:19.595538+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:07:23.511818+08:00","text":"很務實的討論一\n下！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:07:23.511818+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:07:27.428098+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:07:27.428098+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:07:31.344378+08:00","text":"接著請劉建國委員發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T15:07:31.344378+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:07:35.260658+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T15:07:35.260658+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:07:39.176939+08:00","text":"可以請坐啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T15:07:39.176939+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:07:43.093219+08:00","text":"請坐啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T15:07:43.093219+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:07:47.009499+08:00","text":"因為不一定會請你們上台。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T15:07:47.009499+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:07:50.925779+08:00","text":"剛剛聽林委員講完，我就接續著講，基本上，我是尊重林委員的講法，但是站在內政\n部、站在農業部的立場，如果單純以農業的規劃去思考，到底我們在國土計畫四個功能分區裡\n的占比是怎麼樣？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T15:07:50.925779+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:07:54.842059+08:00","text":"我相信主管機關有一定的科學根據及盤查，如果這個案子已經準備好的先行\n，後面的再補上來，會不會與你們原有的評估或相關的科學根據有所落差？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T15:07:54.842059+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:07:58.758339+08:00","text":"萬一有落差的時候\n，如何去做調整？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T15:07:58.758339+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:08:02.674619+08:00","text":"哪一個縣市必須要去做調整、哪一個縣市要減、要增，誰來做這樣的決定？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T15:08:02.674619+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:08:06.590899+08:00","text":"地方政府願意接受嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T15:08:06.590899+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:08:10.507179+08:00","text":"基本上，國土計畫二階就是縣市政府的公告，這個很清楚。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T15:08:10.507179+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:08:14.423459+08:00","text":"現在來到中\n央，中央與地方必須要充分合作，整個四大功能必須盤整得非常非常到位，讓它夠格稱作國土\n計畫，不然在執行過程中幾個縣市是這樣、幾個縣市又是那樣，到時候破壞了整體的制度、占\n比，這些都會造成未來國土計畫的破碎性以及被人民挑戰，這是第一件事情。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T15:08:14.423459+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:08:18.339740+08:00","text":"第二件事情，我一直特別強調，當初在小英政府的時候為什麼會延了 3 年？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T15:08:18.339740+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:08:22.256020+08:00","text":"當初延了 3 年的\n最主要理由是什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T15:08:22.256020+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:08:26.172300+08:00","text":"現在時間到了，當時延的理由消滅了嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T15:08:26.172300+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:08:30.088580+08:00","text":"如果當時的理由還未消滅，現在\n要如何去執行？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T15:08:30.088580+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:08:34.004860+08:00","text":"這是第二件事情。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T15:08:34.004860+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:08:37.921140+08:00","text":"第三件事情是剛剛蔡易餘委員也有提到，那天審查財劃法時我特別提到了一件事情──我們\n在講財政收支劃分法為什麼要跟國土計畫連結在一塊，因為那天很可惜，我們對財政收支劃分\n法都在講「收」，沒有在講「支」啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T15:08:37.921140+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:08:41.837420+08:00","text":"所以那天修正財劃法的時候已經違背了財政收支劃分法\n的整個公平性跟它的原意，相對的，各位都非常清楚我們雲林縣──農業的大縣一直在講糧食\n自給率，我們在糧食自給率的貢獻有多大，農業部有幫我們講話嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T15:08:41.837420+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:08:45.753700+08:00","text":"有幫我們把這個東西盤整\n出來嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T15:08:45.753700+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:08:49.669980+08:00","text":"不止是雲林縣，嘉義、彰化、屏東等地，包含剛剛林岱樺委員特別提到的東高雄，這\n些原有的農業用地現在在區域計畫裡面就是特農跟一般農，顧名思義，可能不是百分之一百的\n轉嫁，不是說特農就一定變成農一，但是依照我們雲林縣原有的規劃，在區域計畫裡面 5 萬 5\n的特農變成農一之後成為 6 萬，我不曉得國土署跟農業部如何去看待這樣的事情。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T15:08:49.669980+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:08:53.586260+08:00","text":"我雲林縣一\n年的產值八、九百億元，屏東一年的產值七百多億元，屏東現在的特農是 1 萬 1，變成國土計畫\n之後的農一剩下 5,500，雲林原本是 5 萬 5，成為國土計畫內的農一之後變成 6 萬，我們足足大\n過屏東 12 倍，這個你們要去思考啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T15:08:53.586260+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:08:57.502541+08:00","text":"我聽地方政府說他們現在有在調整了，但怎麼調整？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T15:08:57.502541+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:09:01.418821+08:00","text":"調整\n206\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄\n起來合不合乎整個農業貢獻這個縣市農一的占比？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T15:09:01.418821+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:09:05.335101+08:00","text":"包含農二、農三等這些的占比公平嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T15:09:05.335101+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:09:09.251381+08:00","text":"大家\n講清楚啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T15:09:09.251381+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:09:13.167661+08:00","text":"在這個沒有講清楚的情況之下，然後我們又是依照當時什麼樣的根據去做這樣一個\n規劃，地方政府為何原先是這樣的規劃？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T15:09:13.167661+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:09:17.083941+08:00","text":"現在當然有一些討論，有一些質疑，有一些挑戰，在\n這樣的情況之下卻又去做了大幅的修正喔！","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T15:09:17.083941+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:09:21.000221+08:00","text":"現在不到 6 萬喔！","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T15:09:21.000221+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:09:24.916501+08:00","text":"剩下多少你們都比我更清楚，因\n為你們跟各縣市個別都有去做聯繫嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T15:09:24.916501+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:09:28.832781+08:00","text":"轉換這麼多，這個 trouble 誰要負責任？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T15:09:28.832781+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:09:32.749061+08:00","text":"怎麼一下子可以\n這樣一下子又可以那樣？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T15:09:32.749061+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:09:36.665342+08:00","text":"全部報給中央，你通通概括承受嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T15:09:36.665342+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:09:40.581622+08:00","text":"你都接受嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T15:09:40.581622+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:09:44.497902+08:00","text":"所以你要跟我講國\n土計畫的執行，對農民而言、對農業而言、對士農工商而言、對都內跟非都所有土地的應用規\n劃，站在一個國家上位土地規劃的立場這樣搞下去，我會覺得無所遵循啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T15:09:44.497902+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:09:48.414182+08:00","text":"無所遵循！","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T15:09:48.414182+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:09:52.330462+08:00","text":"我當然\n知道有許多縣市七早八早可能透過很多的專家學者、教授、專業團隊顧問的進駐，長期的去把\n這整個空間盤整出來，如果是有三級政府的，去跟鄉鎮市透過鄉規、透過其他的一個評估，很\n認真的、很用心的，然後不管是站在農民的角度、站在農地的角度好好去做思考，所規劃出來\n的可能現在已經到位了，他們地方也沒什麼意見，剛剛林委員所講的確實有些人家準備好了，\n你該讓人家去上路啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T15:09:52.330462+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:09:56.246742+08:00","text":"但是我說回歸到中央，站在全國的角度去面對到底是要 80 萬的農地、70\n萬的農地、60 萬的農地，然後分布在所謂的農一到農五，你中央定奪了嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T15:09:56.246742+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:10:00.163022+08:00","text":"你中央決定了嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T15:10:00.163022+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:10:04.079302+08:00","text":"到時候如果在先後順序的情況之下，又沒有照你們如期的這樣的規劃目標面積，要是出個\ntrouble 誰負責？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T15:10:04.079302+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:10:07.995582+08:00","text":"是地方負責還是中央負責？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T15:10:07.995582+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:10:11.911862+08:00","text":"這個大家要講清楚。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T15:10:11.911862+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:10:15.828143+08:00","text":"最後一點我特別強調，當我們\n在供給這樣的一個糧食，算是全國最大宗的蔬果包含畜牧業幾乎都算是最大的情況之下，在修\n正財政收支劃分法的時候，怎麼沒有把農業這樣的貢獻分配出來？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T15:10:15.828143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:10:19.744423+08:00","text":"那我們現在要在國土計畫裡\n面把這個東西塞進去，塞得進去嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T15:10:19.744423+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:10:23.660703+08:00","text":"如何塞？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T15:10:23.660703+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:10:27.576983+08:00","text":"如果只有農業縣的一個縣市去塞，當然其他縣市\n亦會覺得不公平，那我就不曉得你們要怎麼執行下去。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2024-12-26T15:10:27.576983+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:10:31.493263+08:00","text":"以上是我簡單做適當的提醒，給各位做\n一個參考。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T15:10:31.493263+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:10:35.409543+08:00","text":"主席，是不是就如劉委員所說的，如果分階段讓準備好的人先行，站在中央的立場真\n的會產生這樣的困難嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T15:10:35.409543+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:10:39.325823+08:00","text":"是不是請行政部門出來說明一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:10:39.325823+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:10:43.242103+08:00","text":"本席先詢問一下，還有沒有委員要針對第四十五條發言的？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:10:43.242103+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:10:47.158383+08:00","text":"如果暫時沒有，那我們請行政單\n位來說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-12-26T15:10:47.158383+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:10:51.074663+08:00","text":"謝謝召委！","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-12-26T15:10:51.074663+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:10:54.990943+08:00","text":"我想我來就剛剛幾位委員的憂慮綜合回答一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-12-26T15:10:54.990943+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:10:58.907224+08:00","text":"首先我要非常謝謝各位，\n因為在二、三個月前，國土計畫法其實被充分的污名化，現在我們終於爭取到有空間有時間來\n跟大家討論，對此我是非常感謝各位，不管最後的修正條文會產生什麼樣的結果，但是我要先\n跟各位報告一下，就是從國土計畫法開始施行到現在，第一、全國的國土計畫已經公告，第二\n、各縣市的國土計畫也已經公告，所以所謂的大面積，不管是大面積的農地或是大面積的工業\n區土地，不管是在 4 年前或是 8 年前曾經公告過，現在我們只不過是希望各縣市政府可以按照\n當時─差不多是 4 年前─縣市的國土計畫公告內容，把功能分區圖再送到內政部來審議，這是\n一個審議的機制，不是說來了我們就是打圈或打叉，絕對沒有這個意思，同時在處理的程序當\n中，我們有加入所謂的通盤檢討，一般來講我們所了解的通盤檢討大概是 5 年，雖然寫的是 5\n年內，但是很多人都把它想成是 5 年，但是如果大家覺得 5 年太長，我們也可以認同縮短到也\n許是 3 年內也沒有關係，也就是說這個機制是可以跟著變動的，在內政或是說在國土計畫的審\n207\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄\n議委員會裡面，如果要調整的話，其實是只有微調的空間，除非縣市政府透過通盤計畫的檢討\n要修改它的功能分區圖，這些大概就是幾位委員所提到的部分，先跟大家回應一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-12-26T15:10:58.907224+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:11:02.823504+08:00","text":"然後就是大家所說的，我們之所以會提到鄉規的部分，就是我們希望在農業生產為主的比較\n偏鄉或是鄉鎮的地區可以納入鄉村級的都市計畫，也就是說我們的農地不是只有拿來生產農業\n，農地也有農民的生活圈，也有農民所需要的包括學校、市場等等這些，所以它如果變成是鄉\n規計畫部分的話，也可以容納進入我們的功能分區圖，一起來討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-12-26T15:11:02.823504+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:11:06.739784+08:00","text":"也就是說我們把處理的程\n序儘量的透明化跟公開化，同時要有一致性，這個一致性就是縣市地方政府跟我們的國土計畫\n委員會能夠達到一定的功能，大家都達到這樣的共識的時候，我們才有可能做到剛剛說的隨著\n未來如果有公告國土功能分區的時候，區域計畫法可能就要關門了，也就是說在這樣子的轉變\n過程當中，一定會有很多爭議，目前爭議最大的就是來自於農業縣的幾個委員關心的部分，這\n些問題大概可由我們的農業部門跟大家來做回應。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2024-12-26T15:11:06.739784+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:11:10.656064+08:00","text":"以上是程序部分，我先跟大家做一個簡要的\n說明，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:11:10.656064+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:11:14.572344+08:00","text":"針對第四十五條，如果沒有委員還要發表意見的話，現在就做處理，因為包括延長的時間還\n有是不是要把它一併拿掉，我們還沒有整體的共識，所以就保留送院會協商。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:11:14.572344+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:11:18.488624+08:00","text":"最後是第三十二條之一，有關農地發展權的提案，它是逕付二讀的法案，先請提案委員許宇\n甄委員說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:11:18.488624+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:11:22.404904+08:00","text":"謝謝主席還有謝謝我們的部長，請先回座。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:11:22.404904+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:11:26.321184+08:00","text":"本席所提的國土計畫法增訂第三十二條之\n一條文草案，主要是針對國土計畫法是著重在劃設功能分區，但是我們看到整部法只有棍子沒\n有糖果，因為農業是國家的發展之本，農地更是國土永續重要的一環，國土計畫法不能只做土\n地的管制，也應該要有農業的補償，損失補償以及土地配套措施的完整支持能讓整體的架構更\n加完備，才能讓農業持續的發展，農民才更有意願繼續投入耕作。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:11:26.321184+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:11:30.237464+08:00","text":"這次推動農業權修法的主核\n心目標是為了保障農民的權益，我們檢視國土計畫法，關於農業權並沒有相關的規範，因此在\n國土計畫法暫緩實施通過後，應該一併處理農業權的問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:11:30.237464+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:11:34.153744+08:00","text":"農民對於國土計畫法的憂慮主要的\n爭點在於受限制卻沒有補償，增訂農業權使良好的農地獲得法定的補償，才能減少農民對農地\n轉為非農使用的誘因，農業才能永續發展，而土地權益的措施應包含農地發展權的移轉以及農\n業農地價值量化或計算的相關補貼方式，只有將糧食安全等效益回歸給農民，農地和農業的發\n展才能達成政府維護農地農用的政策目標。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:11:34.153744+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:11:38.070025+08:00","text":"農地發展權是一個影響全國農民的重要政策議題，\n中央政府應積極研擬方案，由於我國對於農業權、農地發展權一直都停留在概念的層面，缺乏\n農地發展權相關移轉制度的立法授權，為了兼顧糧食安全及土地公平正義，農業權的修法完成\n之後，我們將授權中央主管機關提出全國農地的發展權移轉制度，政府可以研擬適合我國農業\n用地以及建築用地的合理調配制度，避免中央、地方各自解讀、各自論述的一個情形，因此本\n席提出國土計畫法增訂第三十二條之一條文草案，增列有關農業權補償的條文，希望增訂之後\n，讓農民的權益獲得明確的保障，也可以提高農民的收益，並提升人民從農的意願，落實國家\n糧食安全的目標，促使農業永續發展，以達到區域發展的衡平性。謝謝！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:11:38.070025+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:11:41.986305+08:00","text":"接下來是不是請國土署還有農業部來說明？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:11:41.986305+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:11:45.902585+08:00","text":"先請農業部說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:11:45.902585+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:11:49.818865+08:00","text":"208\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"胡次長忠一","start":"2024-12-26T15:11:49.818865+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:11:53.735145+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"胡次長忠一","start":"2024-12-26T15:11:53.735145+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:11:57.651425+08:00","text":"事實上我們現行的區域計畫法中屬於農業用地的這些農地，在國土計畫法\n全面實施之後，被劃入農業發展地區農一到農五的話，它還是農地，仍然可以按照目前農業的\n產製儲銷來使用，它也叫做農地，所以變成國土計畫法之後，我們並沒有對於農一到農五有任\n何加強嚴格管制的狀況，因此也沒有所謂的實質損失，既然沒有加嚴也沒有實質的損失，事實\n上就沒有發生所謂合理的補償，因為現行區域計畫法之下的農地，如果變成國土計畫法裡面的\n農一到農五的話，還是可以照本來的使用，至於所受到的限制，目前區域計畫法裡規定的受限\n項目有三，第一個就是寵物生命紀念館的設施不能設在農一裡面，第二個就是砂石碎解洗選場\n不能設在農一裡，第三個就是事業廢棄物設施不能設在農一裡，事實上現在的特定農業區也是\n一樣受到這樣的限制，因此根本沒有說區域計畫法變成國土計畫法之後，我們對於土地管制有\n實質的加嚴，基本上也不會有實質的損失，所以因此去設什麼農業權方面的補償其實在理論上\n是講不通的，這是第一點。","quality":0},{"speaker":"胡次長忠一","start":"2024-12-26T15:11:57.651425+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:12:01.567705+08:00","text":"第二點就是農地發展權移轉制度，其實我是不曉得這個的定義為何\n，是不是可以再把它說得更清楚？","quality":0},{"speaker":"胡次長忠一","start":"2024-12-26T15:12:01.567705+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:12:05.483985+08:00","text":"因為農地本身就沒有所謂的發展權移轉，除非它是建地，否\n則農地就是做為農用的話，事實上都還是可以來做使用，沒有所謂的權利移轉制度。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:12:05.483985+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:12:09.400265+08:00","text":"剛剛我們次長還在詢問什麼是農地發展權。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2024-12-26T15:12:09.400265+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:12:13.316545+08:00","text":"他講的是農地發展權沒有定義。","quality":0},{"speaker":"胡次長忠一","start":"2024-12-26T15:12:13.316545+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:12:17.232826+08:00","text":"第三項沒有這個。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:12:17.232826+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:12:21.149106+08:00","text":"現在這個法案已經出來了，你們都沒有去溝通也沒去瞭解嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"胡次長忠一","start":"2024-12-26T15:12:21.149106+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:12:25.065386+08:00","text":"不是，因為這個是臨時提出的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"胡次長忠一","start":"2024-12-26T15:12:25.065386+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:12:28.981666+08:00","text":"對不起！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:12:28.981666+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:12:32.897946+08:00","text":"沒關係，行政單位要再加強。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:12:32.897946+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:12:36.814226+08:00","text":"接著請國土署說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2024-12-26T15:12:36.814226+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:12:40.730506+08:00","text":"感謝委員的指教，有關農業權的部分，當然我們其實都非常認同農業應該要有一個合\n理的機制，讓農民在生產、在生活上受到比較好的照顧，但是今天如果放在國土計畫法裡面，\n它涉及到的是全國的土地，尤其是農地本身，其實就臺灣現行的一個法令制度下，在過去大法\n官的相關解釋以及憲法的解釋裡面，大家都是以依據現況為主，若新訂的法令有導致他比現況\n還要差的環境的狀況，那自有所謂的剝奪或限制它的權益，但是其實我們在訂國土計畫的時候\n，已經充分考慮了農民在生產、生活行為上的必要，所以比起過去的區域計畫法，我們還增訂\n了比較大的一個彈性。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2024-12-26T15:12:40.730506+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:12:44.646786+08:00","text":"過去的區域計畫法，縣市政府並沒有所謂的鄉村的主動規劃權，我們在\n這一次也透過鄉村地區整體規劃，希望能夠讓縣市政府乃至於到鄉鎮公所都有權利來爭取自己\n鄉村的規劃權，目的就是希望讓他們在現行的狀況下，還能夠有對未來發展的期待。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2024-12-26T15:12:44.646786+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:12:48.563066+08:00","text":"那農業發\n展權本身就是在沒有任何規劃狀況下直接賦予它一個預期的價值或預期的利益，這些不管是英\n國、美國，他們原本實行的一個概念其實大概不脫於是類似發展權移轉的概念，在美國進行發\n展權移轉的是屬於大面積的農地或需要保護的地區，過去它的交易面積其實非常大而且確實是\n為了農業生產，當時也認為這樣是一個很好的制度，但是我們臺灣農民的土地持分面積其實相\n對是非常小的，不像美國那樣可以拿出來交易的動輒是幾百公畝甚至上千公畝以上的土地。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2024-12-26T15:12:48.563066+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:12:52.479346+08:00","text":"其\n次是在臺灣這樣農地比較零星而且比較小面積的狀況下去執行的話，它就會類似現在都市計畫\n209\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄\n區所執行的公共設施保留地容積移轉的概念，保留地的移轉概念在民國 78 年第一次開始提出來\n以後，其實當時的文化部跟內政部都有積極的去研擬，也有去國外參訪，去了解日本、德國的\n相關制度，但是從 85 年開始第一版執行古蹟的容積移轉到後來 88 年訂定公共設施保留地的容\n積移轉，大家在當時也預期有可能會造成土地的交易、發展權的交易不正常，也就是說對於收\n購者來講，當然是希望價低者得而不是價高者得，因為即便我們限縮到都市計畫區內，一個都\n市計畫區內也有幾百公頃的公設保留地，對建商、開發商來講，當然要找最便宜的，結果就會\n造成需要錢的人只好賤價出售，而賤價出售往往可能就是二折、三折，好一點的四、五折，後\n來就衍生了收購集團，用二、三折去收購這些容移，然後再以五、六折的價錢賣給需要的人，\n這些就導致公設保留地後來在執行不佳的狀態下還被監察院及相關的團體攻擊，這樣反而會造\n成公設保留地地主的權益受損，所以後來到 102 年才又重新啟動全國都市計畫公共設施的專案\n通盤檢討，就是希望徹底來檢討而不是放任讓他去做容積移轉的概念。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2024-12-26T15:12:52.479346+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:12:56.395627+08:00","text":"其實今天全國的農地高\n達 74 萬到 81 萬公頃，如果要跨縣市來講，價格定價跟價格的差異會造成全國普遍性的差異非\n常高，我想臺東、屏東、花蓮的農地就不可能跟臺北市、新北市、桃園市的農地相比，那價格\n者低，我想也是未來在開放這樣的交易制度一樣會面臨的問題，那會不會也造成未來的農民或\n是未來的開發者認為反正全國土地那麼多，我就是繼續收購低價的就好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2024-12-26T15:12:56.395627+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:13:00.311907+08:00","text":"對於農民來講，一旦\n發展權買走了或是農地買走了，他以後就沒有被規劃進來的權益，因為發展權一旦定調，你賣\n掉上面的附加價值以後，你也沒有被變更的機會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2024-12-26T15:13:00.311907+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:13:04.228187+08:00","text":"這就會造成這些整體規劃的地區，以後如果\n在農地上要做整體規劃，這些地方就是零星缺口的位置。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2024-12-26T15:13:04.228187+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:13:08.144467+08:00","text":"其實這些不管是對於農民的實質權益\n，或是對未來要做整體開發的縣市政府來講，都會是一個雙向的損失。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2024-12-26T15:13:08.144467+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:13:12.060747+08:00","text":"目前針對這個部分來講，我們覺得這是一個非常大的疑慮，因為國土計畫法本身也是一個作\n用法，它不是一個基本法的概念，一旦定了就變成勢必要依照這樣的作法，我們就要全國性的\n去調查，而且要邀請各縣市政府，相關的部分就會去進行。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2024-12-26T15:13:12.060747+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:13:15.977027+08:00","text":"可想而知，過去大家的經驗都一而\n再、再而三會重複提，我想這對國土計畫法，在這一塊沒有徹底研究清楚之前，我們是建議不\n應該貿然這樣的提出。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2024-12-26T15:13:15.977027+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:13:19.893307+08:00","text":"這樣其實反而會造成，未來在農地上又被賦予這樣的一個狀況下，對於\n臺灣現在的農地交易來講，會產生更混亂的現象，以上是國土署的意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:13:19.893307+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:13:23.809587+08:00","text":"好，謝謝署長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:13:23.809587+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:13:27.725867+08:00","text":"還有沒有哪個行政單位？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:13:27.725867+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:13:31.642147+08:00","text":"這位是行政院主計總處是不是？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:13:31.642147+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:13:35.558428+08:00","text":"行政單位要表達意\n見，我們請戴專門委員群芳。","quality":0},{"speaker":"戴專門委員群芳","start":"2024-12-26T15:13:35.558428+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:13:39.474708+08:00","text":"主席、各位委員大家好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"戴專門委員群芳","start":"2024-12-26T15:13:39.474708+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:13:43.390988+08:00","text":"主計總處這邊針對許宇甄委員所提到的第三項，因為第\n三項委員有提到設立特別基金。","quality":0},{"speaker":"戴專門委員群芳","start":"2024-12-26T15:13:43.390988+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:13:47.307268+08:00","text":"當然前端農業部跟國土署署長有說，相關的有沒有損失，需要\n劃設農地有沒有損失，需要補償，這個還需要再評估。","quality":0},{"speaker":"戴專門委員群芳","start":"2024-12-26T15:13:47.307268+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:13:51.223548+08:00","text":"我們這邊是提到有關這個前端，應該是\n由內政部會同農業部，再去就有沒有產生損失需予補償，先去評估，然後對財務的衝擊也要先\n去設算，前端他們設算完了之後再來決定。","quality":0},{"speaker":"戴專門委員群芳","start":"2024-12-26T15:13:51.223548+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:13:55.139828+08:00","text":"現在的條文就馬上提到要設立特別基金，依照財政\n紀律法第八條規定，設立基金必須具備國庫撥補以外新增適足之財源。","quality":0},{"speaker":"戴專門委員群芳","start":"2024-12-26T15:13:55.139828+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:13:59.056108+08:00","text":"因為現在的條文沒有規\n劃財源的部分，如果貿然的寫了設立特別基金這幾個字，可能會影響這個違反財政紀律法的規\n定。","quality":0},{"speaker":"戴專門委員群芳","start":"2024-12-26T15:13:59.056108+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:14:02.972388+08:00","text":"所以這個條文的第三項「及設立特別基金」這幾個字，我們是建議刪除，以上，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"戴專門委員群芳","start":"2024-12-26T15:14:02.972388+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:14:06.888668+08:00","text":"210\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:14:06.888668+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:14:10.804948+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:14:10.804948+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:14:14.721229+08:00","text":"我們請許宇甄委員，然後林淑芬委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:14:14.721229+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:14:18.637509+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，針對剛剛農業部胡次長提到的，農一跟農五其實都一樣，應該不會有什麼\n特別的損失。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:14:18.637509+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:14:22.553789+08:00","text":"這樣的話，是不是我們就可以全部都不要劃農一呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:14:22.553789+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:14:26.470069+08:00","text":"就是全部都從農二開始劃，\n因為這樣的話就不會讓這些農民感受到他們會遭受這樣的損失。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:14:26.470069+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:14:30.386349+08:00","text":"尤其是剛剛提到的，為什麼講\n農業權的部分，就是因為事實上我們現在就是限制他要農地農用，所以他以後沒有辦法開發。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:14:30.386349+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:14:34.302629+08:00","text":"相對的，他的土地價格可能有一個預期的心理，可能會下降。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:14:34.302629+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:14:38.218909+08:00","text":"同樣的包括農二的部分，他可能\n因為劃為農二之後，以後還有變更的機會，所以他的土地價格會上升。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:14:38.218909+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:14:42.135189+08:00","text":"這一來一往之間，其實\n對於劃為農一，農地農用的這些農民們就覺得，他事實上也遭受了很大的損失。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:14:42.135189+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:14:46.051469+08:00","text":"基於這樣的一個概念，我們本來是希望農業部能夠有一個配套措施，讓特別犧牲有特別的損\n失，因為我們為了負擔糧食安全，可是卻要遭遇這樣的損失，我的農地的價值可能被低估，甚\n至將來也沒辦法再移轉成他用，等到年老的時候我也沒有辦法，這塊農地沒有人耕種，我也沒\n有辦法有其他的配套措施。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:14:46.051469+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:14:49.967749+08:00","text":"當時是因為農業部一直都不提出來，所以我們今天提出一個農業權\n的概念，就是希望針對這樣的損失，你們可以用什麼樣的方式？","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:14:49.967749+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:14:53.884029+08:00","text":"那我在法律裡也沒有定出應該\n一定要怎麼做，而是授權主管機關去針對相關的配套措施，研擬出一個方案。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:14:53.884029+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:14:57.800310+08:00","text":"其實這個部分，我覺得農業部不該一開始就講這個根本不合理或怎麼樣，我覺得應該是要先\n研究一下，了解農民真正的需求以及造成什麼樣的損失，才來提出相關的配套或大家可以來研\n討，我覺得這才是重點，以上。","quality":0},{"speaker":"胡次長忠一","start":"2024-12-26T15:14:57.800310+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:15:01.716590+08:00","text":"好，謝謝，謝謝許委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"胡次長忠一","start":"2024-12-26T15:15:01.716590+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:15:05.632870+08:00","text":"許委員所講的非常正確，事實上我們農一到農五裡面的農地\n都是農用，並沒有說農一這個地，農二或者是農五那個就不做農用，其實跟這個沒有關係。","quality":0},{"speaker":"胡次長忠一","start":"2024-12-26T15:15:05.632870+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:15:09.549150+08:00","text":"我\n們最主要把它劃設農一到農五，原因就是農一的話是 25 公頃，集中 25 公頃，其中有 80%的農\n地是作為農用。","quality":0},{"speaker":"胡次長忠一","start":"2024-12-26T15:15:09.549150+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:15:13.465430+08:00","text":"那如果不符合集中 25 公頃、80%以上做農用的話，那個叫做農二，但是在平地\n地區。","quality":0},{"speaker":"胡次長忠一","start":"2024-12-26T15:15:13.465430+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:15:17.381710+08:00","text":"接下來的農三是山坡地，農四是鄉村區，農五是都市計畫區。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:15:17.381710+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:15:21.297990+08:00","text":"次長，這個部分我想大家都知道，資料都有，所以我剛只是針對農一的部分，那這個\n部分的話，以後農一可以再做變更嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:15:21.297990+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:15:25.214270+08:00","text":"可以不做農用嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"胡次長忠一","start":"2024-12-26T15:15:25.214270+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:15:29.130550+08:00","text":"剛才我所講的就是，現在的特定農業區裡面的限制，農一以後也會受到這樣的限制，\n是一樣的，但是我們會劃農一到農五，是在我們堆疊式的補貼的時候，我們會給農一更好的補\n貼，是用這種方式來補貼他的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:15:29.130550+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:15:33.046830+08:00","text":"請問農一的補貼是什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:15:33.046830+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:15:36.963111+08:00","text":"好像大家都還沒有配套措施出來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"胡次長忠一","start":"2024-12-26T15:15:36.963111+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:15:40.879391+08:00","text":"我們都已經訂了，農三是山坡地，山坡地我們有山坡地的做法。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:15:40.879391+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:15:44.795671+08:00","text":"請問補貼是多少？","quality":0},{"speaker":"胡次長忠一","start":"2024-12-26T15:15:44.795671+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:15:48.711951+08:00","text":"補貼的話，其實在農一，如果說整體從農一到農五，共通的來講的話，農一的話可以\n到十四萬五千多，一年大概有十四萬五千多的相關……","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:15:48.711951+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:15:52.628231+08:00","text":"您說的是 1 公頃嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"胡次長忠一","start":"2024-12-26T15:15:52.628231+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:15:56.544511+08:00","text":"對，我們的相關政策給他的補貼，包括稅制的優惠，還有包括我們給他的轉作、契作\n211\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄\n或者是我們給他的對地綠色環境給付等等。","quality":0},{"speaker":"胡次長忠一","start":"2024-12-26T15:15:56.544511+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:16:00.460791+08:00","text":"這些加起來，農一可以得到的利益比農二、農三還\n要高。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:16:00.460791+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:16:04.377071+08:00","text":"但是他以後就不能作為其他的移轉，是嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"胡次長忠一","start":"2024-12-26T15:16:04.377071+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:16:08.293351+08:00","text":"可以，移轉 5 年內可以……","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:16:08.293351+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:16:12.209631+08:00","text":"5 年內只是檢討嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:16:12.209631+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:16:16.125912+08:00","text":"5 年一次的檢討嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"董次長建宏","start":"2024-12-26T15:16:16.125912+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:16:20.042192+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，農一、農二、農三、農四，這相關的農業用地，只要提出計畫、需求，\n那麼我們就根據計畫、需求做審定之後，他就可以改變。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:16:20.042192+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:16:23.958472+08:00","text":"所以是 5 年對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"董次長建宏","start":"2024-12-26T15:16:23.958472+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:16:27.874752+08:00","text":"我們的署長剛才所提到的，就是說所有的計畫，所有的農地在規劃的時候，為什麼我\n們不同意劃設什麼農地發展權？","quality":0},{"speaker":"董次長建宏","start":"2024-12-26T15:16:27.874752+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:16:31.791032+08:00","text":"是因為你一旦劃設農地發展權，他被賣掉之後，他在未來任何\n的計畫擬定的過程裡面，這塊地都不能被用，因為他的權利已經賣出了，所以他不得變更，這\n才是真正判農地死刑。","quality":0},{"speaker":"董次長建宏","start":"2024-12-26T15:16:31.791032+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:16:35.707312+08:00","text":"你如果用 TDR，就是把農地判死刑，而在美國的案例裡面，他們之所以\n要用這樣，是因為有一群人，他就是堅持要做農，所以在美國所謂的農業權，指的是我想從事\n農業的權利，你不得干預我，而不是說我們要來補助或補貼，這是不一樣的概念。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:16:35.707312+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:16:39.623592+08:00","text":"次長，我想這個部分，當然不同的國家有不同的概念的陳述，但是這個部分，我想剛\n剛我也表達得很清楚，就是說針對這個部分，我們主要是針對農一的農地農用，雖然你們剛剛\n一直講 5 年內，5 年可以提出一次，但就不是像現在這樣子，所以為什麼剛剛講有一些可能會開\n始申請，可能要做農地移轉，就是因為我現在作為農地農用，我只有感受到我將來就是會有很\n大的損失。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:16:39.623592+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:16:43.539872+08:00","text":"所以說為什麼希望農業部能夠有一個相關的配套措施，讓這些農民、尤其劃設為農\n一的農民，他們能夠感受到政府對他們的特別犧牲能夠有特別的補償，主要的目的是這樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:16:43.539872+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:16:47.456152+08:00","text":"至於相關的配套措施，其實剛剛講的這個配套措施，我們到現在也還沒看到，所謂的 1 公頃\n14.5 萬，到底是什麼樣的詳細的狀況，好像也說不清楚，而且就是每一公頃只要我提出申請就\n可以有 14.5 萬嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:16:47.456152+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:16:51.372432+08:00","text":"我相信也不是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:16:51.372432+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:16:55.288713+08:00","text":"還有很多的相關問題，所以這個部分主要是這樣，那要不然\n的話，其實對於國土計畫法來說，每個縣市，我相信大家都會願意針對國土計畫法來上路。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:16:55.288713+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:16:59.204993+08:00","text":"目\n前的問題就是，這些問題都還沒有配套措施，在還沒解決之前是不是要倉促的上路？","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:16:59.204993+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:17:03.121273+08:00","text":"我覺得這\n是現在真正的問題癥結所在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"董次長建宏","start":"2024-12-26T15:17:03.121273+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:17:07.037553+08:00","text":"謝謝委員的指教，我想還是跟委員們做一個說明，在目前區計法的狀態之下，事實上\n農地的變更程序跟權利，其實反而比國土計畫更複雜，因為個案變更是要有相關的義務或者有\n些計畫、有些毗鄰等等的狀況。","quality":0},{"speaker":"董次長建宏","start":"2024-12-26T15:17:07.037553+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:17:10.953833+08:00","text":"你如果沒有這些狀況，其實農地就是農地，你不能夠做任何的\n變更使用。","quality":0},{"speaker":"董次長建宏","start":"2024-12-26T15:17:10.953833+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:17:14.870113+08:00","text":"但是在國土計畫法的狀況之下，每個縣市每一段時間就可以進行檢討，而且是全部\n的檢討，就跟我們都市計畫通盤檢討一樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"董次長建宏","start":"2024-12-26T15:17:14.870113+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:17:18.786393+08:00","text":"他有發展的需求，他有規劃的需求，他有未來進一\n步不同的發展的想像的時候，它就可以被拿出來討論、拿出來使用。","quality":0},{"speaker":"董次長建宏","start":"2024-12-26T15:17:18.786393+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:17:22.702673+08:00","text":"目前就現階段來講，我們從上一任的農業部陳吉仲部長，到現在的陳駿季部長，他們都同意\n農地上產、製、儲、銷都可以設立，突破了過去在區計裡面的一些規範。","quality":0},{"speaker":"董次長建宏","start":"2024-12-26T15:17:22.702673+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:17:26.618953+08:00","text":"區計的規範裡面，農\n地還不見得能夠做產、製、儲、銷，我們現在為了達到綠色經濟的狀態，所以許多的小型農產\n212\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄\n加工，也可以在國土計畫法範圍之內，我們透過計畫允許在地的產、製、儲、銷都發展。","quality":0},{"speaker":"董次長建宏","start":"2024-12-26T15:17:26.618953+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:17:30.535233+08:00","text":"所以\n農業其實沒有什麼特別犧牲，它就是一個產業，它是一個發展。","quality":0},{"speaker":"董次長建宏","start":"2024-12-26T15:17:30.535233+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:17:34.451514+08:00","text":"至於委員提到的相關的農業補\n貼，我是不是可以請胡次長說明？","quality":0},{"speaker":"胡次長忠一","start":"2024-12-26T15:17:34.451514+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:17:38.367794+08:00","text":"是，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"胡次長忠一","start":"2024-12-26T15:17:38.367794+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:17:42.284074+08:00","text":"因為我們現在農一到農五，事實上各縣市政府所劃出來總共大概有 79 萬\n公頃，農一跟農二有五十幾萬公頃，其實這個是符合目前中央政府對於整個農地的需求。","quality":0},{"speaker":"胡次長忠一","start":"2024-12-26T15:17:42.284074+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:17:46.200354+08:00","text":"那農\n一到農五的話，我們現在就是按照剛才跟委員報告過的，農一因為他所做的有受到三個限制，\n就是剛剛所講的這個寵物的生命紀念館，還有砂石業、事業廢棄物等等這三種限制。","quality":0},{"speaker":"胡次長忠一","start":"2024-12-26T15:17:46.200354+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:17:50.116634+08:00","text":"農一是最\n優良的農地，所以我們以後這分成五類，對於平地農一的補助會比較高，因此以後一定會有農\n民到縣市政府要求說把他劃到農一，因為事實上他們可能誤解，誤解農一可能限制比較多。","quality":0},{"speaker":"胡次長忠一","start":"2024-12-26T15:17:50.116634+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:17:54.032914+08:00","text":"其\n實剛才所講的這些跟農業無關的這些廢棄物或砂石廠，這根本跟一般農民是無關的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:17:54.032914+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:17:57.949194+08:00","text":"次長，這一部法立法到現在已經 8 年了，給你們 8 年的時間去跟農民溝通，你說他們\n還有誤解的話，那問題在哪裡？","quality":0},{"speaker":"胡次長忠一","start":"2024-12-26T15:17:57.949194+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:18:01.865474+08:00","text":"絕大部分都沒有，因為一開始的時候就……","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:18:01.865474+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:18:05.781754+08:00","text":"為什麼不去溝通呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"胡次長忠一","start":"2024-12-26T15:18:05.781754+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:18:09.698034+08:00","text":"絕大部分沒有，因為有少部分說什麼會……","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:18:09.698034+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:18:13.614314+08:00","text":"不是，剛剛次長提到的這個問題……","quality":0},{"speaker":"胡次長忠一","start":"2024-12-26T15:18:13.614314+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:18:17.530595+08:00","text":"不是，因為很多人都講農一被劃進去就變成農奴，所以我們去解釋，解釋將近 160 場\n……","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:18:17.530595+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:18:21.446875+08:00","text":"不是，其實次長我相信，如果像你剛講的那樣的話，對農民有這麼多的好處，你覺得\n農民是頭殼壞掉，為什麼他們要反對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:18:21.446875+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:18:25.363155+08:00","text":"就是因為還是有很多他們有疑慮的地方，這個疑慮的地\n方就是因為，我現在看不到我的犧牲有什麼賠償。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:18:25.363155+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:18:29.279435+08:00","text":"剛剛雖然講到，我可以變更，可是是 5 年才\n一次，跟現在不一樣，現在區域計畫法是隨時都可以喔。","quality":0},{"speaker":"胡次長忠一","start":"2024-12-26T15:18:29.279435+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:18:33.195715+08:00","text":"應該是五年內。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:18:33.195715+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:18:37.111995+08:00","text":"對，五年內嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:18:37.111995+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:18:41.028275+08:00","text":"那就變成時間上對可不可以變更都不知道，那我就想如果是這樣的話\n，照剛剛次長的講法，說實在如果是農民，為了安全起見，我拜託你幫我劃成農二，我至少將\n來還有一個變更的機會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:18:41.028275+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:18:44.944555+08:00","text":"但農一的話，我剛剛不是說判死刑，而是覺得農一既然只能作為農地\n農用，剛剛我也講了，你對於農地的這個價值，有可能會被低估。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:18:44.944555+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:18:48.860835+08:00","text":"再來就是說我們的農二，比\n如說我現在劃為農二，未來我的這個土地可能可以移轉，所以我的農地價值會變高。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:18:48.860835+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:18:52.777115+08:00","text":"這樣一來\n一往之間，當然我們的農民都會感受到我辛苦耕種，現在你說一公頃 14.5 萬，我現在還不如把\n這些農地都租給太陽能光電業者，一年就有 40 萬，我什麼都不必做就有 40 萬，所以是這樣的\n一個概念。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:18:52.777115+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:18:56.693396+08:00","text":"我們如果真的希望農民來負擔糧食安全，那是不是該給他們一些相關的補償，讓他\n們覺得作為農民，來為國家負擔糧食安全，那是針對國家的一個幫助，所以我們願意。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:18:56.693396+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:19:00.609676+08:00","text":"我覺得\n應該是這樣子，而不是對他們說都沒有損失，那你想農民為什麼要反對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:19:00.609676+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:19:04.525956+08:00","text":"為什麼這麼多朝野的\n立委共同提出要展延？","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:19:04.525956+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:19:08.442236+08:00","text":"其實就是有很大的問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:19:08.442236+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:19:12.358516+08:00","text":"213\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:19:12.358516+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:19:16.274796+08:00","text":"好，次長，再加強溝通、再加強宣導。是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T15:19:16.274796+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:19:20.191076+08:00","text":"你如果不會解釋，回去想一想再來解釋。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:19:20.191076+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:19:24.107356+08:00","text":"我有聽到你說農民還有很多的誤解，沒關係我們現在聽委員講。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:19:24.107356+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:19:28.023636+08:00","text":"請林淑芬委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T15:19:28.023636+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:19:31.939916+08:00","text":"你如果不會解釋，回去想一想再來解釋，解釋了半天人家還聽不懂，這就是你們的問\n題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T15:19:31.939916+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:19:35.856197+08:00","text":"好，換我講一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T15:19:35.856197+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:19:39.772477+08:00","text":"現在委員所爭執的是農地要維持農用，犧牲他們，可是現在沒有國土計畫法，農地還是要農\n用啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T15:19:39.772477+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:19:43.688757+08:00","text":"現在區域計畫法的概念，農地可以不農用嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T15:19:43.688757+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:19:47.605037+08:00","text":"不行耶，然後農地沒有農用，那他可以個\n案變更。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T15:19:47.605037+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:19:51.521317+08:00","text":"次長剛才已經講了，內政部次長剛剛講農地的個案變更，他綁很多程序，要涉及計劃\n，所以他要涉及變更權利，他是很複雜的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T15:19:51.521317+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:19:55.437597+08:00","text":"所以現在在買賣農地，個案去變更的是有本事的、\n有特權的、有能力的，不是一般農民都可以個案變更。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T15:19:55.437597+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:19:59.353877+08:00","text":"區域計畫法沒有國土計畫法，現在的個\n案變更都是靠著特權、有能力的人、大財團、大產業、大特權的人，才有能力去個案變更。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T15:19:59.353877+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:20:03.270157+08:00","text":"現在地方都跟我陳情，因為我們的鄉親，我三重、蘆洲、五股的選民很多都來自雲林。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T15:20:03.270157+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:20:07.186437+08:00","text":"他問\n我一件事，他說：委員，我向你請教，我的農地在雲林，他們都說從現在起農地不能賣了，這\n是真的嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T15:20:07.186437+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:20:11.102717+08:00","text":"怎麼可能農地不能買賣？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T15:20:11.102717+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:20:15.018998+08:00","text":"農地不能移轉了，他說：縣政府就是這樣說。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T15:20:15.018998+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:20:18.935278+08:00","text":"我說：國土\n計畫法以後農地一樣可以買賣，一樣可以移轉，一樣可以變更，一樣可以蓋農舍，統統都沒有\n改變。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T15:20:18.935278+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:20:22.851558+08:00","text":"只是他現在不能夠個案變更，沒有方便那些特權的、大財團的、有能力的人個案變更。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T15:20:22.851558+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:20:26.767838+08:00","text":"但是對一個沒有能力的小農民來講，如果未來地方發展需求，他計劃變更，我們不用靠特權，\n也不用靠財團。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T15:20:26.767838+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:20:30.684118+08:00","text":"現在如果需要整片，他變更的是整片的土地，大家跟進，大家都可以認為需要\n整片，大家一起變更，而不是有能力的人自己變更，自己「好康」自己。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T15:20:30.684118+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:20:34.600398+08:00","text":"唯一的差別就是不能\n夠個案變更，所以現在為什麼要放這個假消息、假風聲，說農地不能買賣？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T15:20:34.600398+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:20:38.516678+08:00","text":"說國土計畫法通過\n以後，農地不能買賣，不能夠移轉？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T15:20:38.516678+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:20:42.432958+08:00","text":"這一個假消息是因為即將要有詐騙集團來了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T15:20:42.432958+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:20:46.349238+08:00","text":"我們講農業權，什麼是農業權？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T15:20:46.349238+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:20:50.265518+08:00","text":"我們有經驗，我有經驗，我新北市，新北市在八里臺北港這\n個專區、特區的土地重劃裡面，新北市政府，我們因為抗爭，那個阿嬤說，我堅持我的土地，\n我不要變成專區，我不要變成工業區，我不要變成住宅區，我就是要務農，所以大家抗爭很久\n，終於把那個阿嬤的農地保留下來，他要務農，這個才叫做農業權。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T15:20:50.265518+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:20:54.181799+08:00","text":"而你們掮客要的不是農業\n權，是農地移轉權啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T15:20:54.181799+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:20:58.098079+08:00","text":"我跟你講，農民搞不清楚，以為不能夠買賣了，我趕快賣給掮客。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T15:20:58.098079+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:21:02.014359+08:00","text":"掮客\n廉價收購大量的土地，然後打折，大家趁這個機會趕快把農民一片片的土地買起來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T15:21:02.014359+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:21:05.930639+08:00","text":"然後讓大\n家不知道、資訊不對等、專業能力不對等，都買起來之後，他再去大炒地皮，大賺特賺。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T15:21:05.930639+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:21:09.846919+08:00","text":"這個\n是有陰謀的，這個裡面不要假借農民，也不要假借農業權三個字。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T15:21:09.846919+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:21:13.763199+08:00","text":"這個是炒土地的農地移轉權\n的制度，藉由誆騙、藉由資訊不對等，詐騙農民。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T15:21:13.763199+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:21:17.679479+08:00","text":"今天我要再跟大家講，國土計畫法施行以後，可以蓋農舍、可以買賣、可以移轉、可以變更\n，不用再讓大財團、有能力的人，只有他們有個案變更的能力。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T15:21:17.679479+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:21:21.595759+08:00","text":"所以現在再來空中畫大餅，然\n後再來假裝包裝了一個農業權的概念，什麼農地判死刑，那根本不是那樣子，這是詐騙！","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T15:21:21.595759+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:21:25.512039+08:00","text":"地方\n政府都講不實，剛才還一直在講，不能移轉，不能買賣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2024-12-26T15:21:25.512039+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:21:29.428319+08:00","text":"胡說八道，睜眼說瞎話，真的是詐騙\n214\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄\n農民！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:21:29.428319+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:21:33.344600+08:00","text":"好，是不是第三十二條之一，我們也保留？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:21:33.344600+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:21:37.260880+08:00","text":"審查到這邊，我們協商的結論：國土計畫法修正草案第七條、第八條、第二十三條、增訂的\n第三十二條之一、第三十五條、第四十條及第四十五條，均保留送院長協商。","quality":0.277},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:21:37.260880+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:21:41.177160+08:00","text":"我們今天開會到這邊，現在散會，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:21:41.177160+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:21:45.093440+08:00","text":"散會（14 時 53 分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:21:45.093440+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:21:49.009720+08:00","text":"我們現在開始開會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:21:49.009720+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:21:52.926000+08:00","text":"今天協商的是選罷法，大家可以參考桌上的資料，我們只要是在平和的環境下，我們保障每\n一位委員的發言權利，所以現在請各位委員表達意見。","quality":0.051},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:21:52.926000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:21:55.927000+08:00","text":"好，請李柏毅委員。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-12-26T15:21:55.927000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:22:17.512000+08:00","text":"主席，12 月 16 日非常平和，我看到你在主持的時候平和得不得了，底下坐了 8 個國\n民黨的委員，你後面站了 4 個，旁邊又坐了 2 個，非常的平和，開會時間也非常的平和，開會","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"時間","start":"2024-12-26T15:22:17.512000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:22:18.893000+08:00","text":"法案審議約 1 分鐘──61 秒；會議時間：3 分鐘，哇！","quality":0.412},{"speaker":"時間","start":"2024-12-26T15:22:18.893000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:22:25.175750+08:00","text":"非常的平和，如主席所講。","quality":0},{"speaker":"時間","start":"2024-12-26T15:22:25.175750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:22:31.458500+08:00","text":"今天\n我們也很平和，我們也希望表達那一天選舉罷免法的這些狀況。","quality":0.214},{"speaker":"時間","start":"2024-12-26T15:22:31.458500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:22:37.741250+08:00","text":"我們今天這個平和的狀況跟當\n天平和的狀況也一樣啊，民進黨立委還是可以表達意見，我們背負著選民的請託，所以你說的\n平和，我就不知道是什麼原因。","quality":0.016},{"speaker":"時間","start":"2024-12-26T15:22:37.741250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:22:44.024000+08:00","text":"你的平和是不是要把門堵起來？","quality":0},{"speaker":"時間","start":"2024-12-26T15:22:44.024000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:23:00.765000+08:00","text":"你的平和是不是要派所有國民黨委員不讓民進黨委員進來才\n叫平和？","quality":0.517},{"speaker":"時間","start":"2024-12-26T15:23:02.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:23:05.406000+08:00","text":"這個不是平和，這個叫威權！","quality":1},{"speaker":"時間","start":"2024-12-26T15:23:06.207000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:23:14.950000+08:00","text":"我們怎麼知道中國人大在舉手的過程裡面，如果沒有舉\n手，在外面會碰到什麼狀況？","quality":1},{"speaker":"時間","start":"2024-12-26T15:23:14.950000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:23:18.868833+08:00","text":"這個表面的平和的確是確實的獨裁，所以主席，你要用這種平和\n的方式才可以表達意見，要看你的骨子裡是平和，還是你要的只是表面的平和，而不讓真正的\n聲音可以在會議室表達。","quality":0.149},{"speaker":"時間","start":"2024-12-26T15:23:18.868833+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:23:22.787667+08:00","text":"如果今天這一種協商只是立法院職權行使法裡面，對於委員會之後還\n有協商的過程，然後接下來再經過黨團協商，我跟你說，這種協商也是這種獨裁式、威權式的\n過程啦，你有沒有看到獨裁國家在國會裡面，大家鼓掌來歡迎習近平主席？","quality":0.073},{"speaker":"時間","start":"2024-12-26T15:23:22.787667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:23:26.706500+08:00","text":"你有沒有看過獨裁\n國家在他們的議事廳裡面來歡迎普丁總統？","quality":0},{"speaker":"時間","start":"2024-12-26T15:23:26.706500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:23:30.625333+08:00","text":"難道這種威權式的、程序式的這種樣式才是主席你\n要的嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"時間","start":"2024-12-26T15:23:30.625333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:23:34.544167+08:00","text":"我們要的不是這樣啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"時間","start":"2024-12-26T15:23:34.544167+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:23:38.463000+08:00","text":"你具體主張，你們認為這個罷免有什麼問題？","quality":0.111},{"speaker":"時間","start":"2024-12-26T15:23:38.463000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:24:56.175000+08:00","text":"我來具體講好了\n216\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄\n，從韓國瑜院長擔任立委的時候遇到罷免之後，1993 年、1994 年之後，國民黨就在立法院提議\n修改選罷法，把選罷法修成沒有辦法罷免，所以到了 2016 年，黃國昌在時代力量修改選舉罷免\n法之後，連續 7 年才有 7 場的罷免，很多嗎？","quality":0.811},{"speaker":"時間","start":"2024-12-26T15:24:56.175000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:24:57.556471+08:00","text":"不多啊，罷免掉幾個人？","quality":0.222},{"speaker":"時間","start":"2024-12-26T15:24:57.556471+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:24:58.937941+08:00","text":"3 個人，第一個是一個直\n轄市議員，第二個是一個立法委員，然後還有一個直轄市市長，很多嗎？","quality":0.081},{"speaker":"時間","start":"2024-12-26T15:24:58.937941+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:25:00.319412+08:00","text":"有所謂的濫罷免嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"時間","start":"2024-12-26T15:25:00.319412+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:25:01.700882+08:00","text":"沒有啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"時間","start":"2024-12-26T15:25:01.700882+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:25:03.082353+08:00","text":"你先在罷免連署的部分提高門檻，要人民繳交身分證，然後今天要協商的其中一個案子裡面\n就是罷免同意票要比當選票數多一，你要用平和的方式讓我們表達嗎？","quality":0.03},{"speaker":"時間","start":"2024-12-26T15:25:03.082353+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:25:04.463824+08:00","text":"還是 12 月 16 號這場會\n議，其實以我來講，12 月 16 日這場會議我沒有簽到名，我不可能平和啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"時間","start":"2024-12-26T15:25:04.463824+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:25:05.845294+08:00","text":"我有來，你不讓我們\n進來，我們怎麼平和？","quality":0},{"speaker":"時間","start":"2024-12-26T15:25:05.845294+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:25:07.226765+08:00","text":"12 月 16 號這場會議我們有來耶，議事錄裡面沒有我們耶，那是不是應該\n做一個處理，今天這一場協商的會議才算數啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"時間","start":"2024-12-26T15:25:07.226765+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:25:08.608235+08:00","text":"你剛剛講平和，我受不了，所以我率先發言，\n謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:25:08.608235+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:25:09.989706+08:00","text":"沒關係，本席也表達一下。","quality":0.1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:25:09.989706+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:25:11.371176+08:00","text":"第一個，本席知道、我記得我這個會期擔任召委，我有很多次會\n議都被霸占主席臺，沒辦法順利開會，但是這個會期只要是民進黨當召委……","quality":0.036},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-12-26T15:25:11.371176+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:25:12.752647+08:00","text":"這個會期是預算會期，你預算審了沒？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-12-26T15:25:12.752647+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:25:14.134118+08:00","text":"審到現在審完了沒？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-12-26T15:25:14.134118+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:25:15.515588+08:00","text":"受不了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-12-26T15:25:15.515588+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:25:16.897059+08:00","text":"對不起，主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:25:16.897059+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:25:18.278529+08:00","text":"沒關係、沒關係，忍功要再加強。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-12-26T15:25:18.278529+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:25:19.660000+08:00","text":"受不了、受不了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-12-26T15:25:19.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:25:20.140000+08:00","text":"整個立法院的委員會就剩你了啦！","quality":0.357},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:25:20.140000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:25:35.160500+08:00","text":"本席擔任召委，在內政委員會擔任召委，多次開會時被霸占主席臺或是干擾議事，第一次排\n選罷法的時候也是霸占主席臺，不給開會，所以什麼是威權？","quality":0.131},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:25:35.160500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:25:50.181000+08:00","text":"什麼是專制？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:25:50.181000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:27:54.274000+08:00","text":"只要不合某些政黨\n的意思的，你就不讓開會，包含上個禮拜五破壞我們的院會，所以民主的制度，當然我們尊重\n每一個人發言的權利，當然也讓大家看到今天我們要好好的開會，但是當家鬧事，我們也不知\n道全民大家的看法究竟如何，所以至少在這個會期的內政委員會，只要是張宏陸召委召開會議\n的時候，國民黨團從來沒有霸占主席臺不讓他開會，我們尊重每一次的會議……","quality":0.314},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:27:54.274000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:28:01.692750+08:00","text":"……在審預算……","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:28:01.692750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:28:09.111500+08:00","text":"請尊重一下召委！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:28:09.111500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:28:16.530250+08:00","text":"我好幾次排審預算案也是被阻擋，所以沒關係，今天是協商會議，讓大家暢所欲言。","quality":0.091},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:28:16.530250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:28:23.949000+08:00","text":"接下來我們請蔡書記長易餘。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:28:23.949000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:28:35.457000+08:00","text":"主席，你今天讓大家暢所欲言是沒有意義的，因為今天看起來，如果是協商，有一個\n政黨沒有到，所以今天變得沒辦法有一個實質的協商。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:28:36.278000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:28:48.246000+08:00","text":"那我們還是要回到選罷法，因為主席你\n排了這樣的一個案，事實上，你所面對的並不是只有現在許宇甄，也就是國民黨現在要通過的\n選票加一，就是要大於當選票數的這個選罷法的規定，再把它變得更加的困難。","quality":0.64},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:28:48.246000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:29:08.535750+08:00","text":"事實上，涉及\n到的條文還包括民調可以發布的時間，過去是 10 天，你把它縮短到 3 天，而且還涉及到，我們\n看到強制驗票要從千分之三把它放寬到千分之十。","quality":0.033},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:29:08.535750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:29:28.825500+08:00","text":"這些都是涉及選舉制度很大的改變，主席，\n選舉對你來說，你也是老江湖了，你也知道這些制度的改變事實上是需要大家充分的溝通，甚\n217\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄\n至要召開公聽會，而我們在委員會的時候跟你說至少要開個公聽會，你也是不同意啊！","quality":0.076},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:29:28.825500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:29:49.115250+08:00","text":"因為這\n涉及到的是，除了我們在這裡討論的以外，你現在要改變這樣的制度，而且這是過去大家都已\n經習以為常，大家百姓都習慣民調的部分就是 10 天，你現在要把它改成 3 天，那這一次的選舉\n正好又發生有人散布假民調，這個假民調後來被查到它的後面可能有中國的色彩，這些事情都\n不重要嗎？","quality":0.033},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:29:49.115250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:30:09.405000+08:00","text":"很重要。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:30:09.405000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:30:15.491000+08:00","text":"所以我們要跟主席說的是，你在 12 月 16 日不讓我們進來，你們就整個擋在外面不讓\n我們進來討論，然後你們就讓它過了，你們通過的這些法案難道真的不需要大家好好地講一下\n嗎？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:30:15.491000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:30:23.457000+08:00","text":"再者，在上禮拜五，國民黨的多數表決，你們選罷法也已經過了程序的加嚴了啊！","quality":0.094},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:30:23.457000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:30:31.423000+08:00","text":"既然已經\n過了程序的加嚴，那現在還有必要這麼急，把第二道加嚴的程序也趕在我們這個會期通過嗎？","quality":0.024},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:30:31.423000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:30:39.389000+08:00","text":"應該是沒有那麼趕啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:30:39.389000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:30:47.355000+08:00","text":"因為你們已經有一個完成三讀了，所以基本上我覺得大家沒有必要那麼\n著急在此時此刻。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:30:47.355000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:30:55.321000+08:00","text":"主席，明明在 12 月 16 日有那麼大的爭議，現在都沒有一個妥善的處理方式，我想主席你不\n可能覺得說開會……議事杯葛人人都會有啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:30:55.321000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:31:42.865000+08:00","text":"國民黨也有占主席臺過，民進黨也會占主席臺，\n但是過去，從以前到現在所有占主席臺都是為了要杯葛，讓議事延緩，讓議事沒有辦法進行，\n從來沒有一次占主席臺是要把議事加速進行，讓反對的聲音沒辦法進來，然後我把程序加速，1\n分鐘讓它過，3 分鐘喊散會，沒有這樣的嘛！","quality":0.418},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:31:42.885000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:31:58.397000+08:00","text":"所以既然有這麼大的瑕疵在這邊，主席如果你也同\n意，既然你們已經在程序加嚴這一關，在上禮拜五你們完成三讀了，你現在又何必要趕著再過\n另外一包選罷法，然後用雙重的鳥籠把罷免權真的沒收到沒有？","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:31:58.397000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:32:01.740000+08:00","text":"我覺得你們要不要考慮看看，我們補正瑕疵，12 月 16 日那不是占主席臺，主席，你不要說占\n主席臺，現在立法院是國民黨當家啦！","quality":0.102},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:32:01.740000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:32:30.493000+08:00","text":"你們是多數，院長是韓國瑜，過去民進黨在立法院多數\n的時候，國民黨也是有占主席臺啊！","quality":0.639},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:32:30.714000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:32:38.063000+08:00","text":"但是占主席臺的用意就是我剛才說的，讓程序慢一點，儘\n量讓程序更慢一點，讓它討論得更完整，沒有人占主席臺是為了開快車啦！","quality":0.736},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:32:45.608000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:32:46.988000+08:00","text":"主席，我具體建議啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:32:47.689000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:32:52.010000+08:00","text":"我具體建議，看主席能不能接納？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:32:52.010000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:33:07.835000+08:00","text":"既然 12 月 16 日有這麼多的瑕疵，\n反正今天沒有 3 個政黨在，今天這個協商看起來是沒有辦法做有效的協商，主席，你有沒有辦\n法考慮把這案退回程序委員會？","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:33:09.659000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:33:27.661000+08:00","text":"我們內政委員會補正瑕疵，大家把這些事情討論好，因為這個\n條文絕對不是只有罷免票要大於當選票這樣一個條文而已，還有很多其他的選罷法條文，而且\n這些條文都影響到我們的選舉權，整個制度的改變需要更大的討論。","quality":0.63},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:33:27.661000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:33:33.155000+08:00","text":"主席，我覺得你再評估一\n下，這樣對你主持議事，我覺得你沒有必要留下 12 月 16 日，以後大家都會說這是一個破天荒\n的占主席臺把不同的意見卡在門外，讓他不能進來，我覺得這樣不好啦！","quality":0.014},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:33:33.155000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:33:38.649000+08:00","text":"對你也不好啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:33:38.649000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:33:44.143000+08:00","text":"好不\n好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:33:44.143000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:33:49.637000+08:00","text":"主席考慮看看。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:33:49.637000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:33:55.131000+08:00","text":"謝謝蔡書記長易餘的發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:33:55.131000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:34:15.872000+08:00","text":"請各位委員要注意，我們排法案是每個委員提案的權利，主席只是安排法案以及按照議事規\n則來主持，最終一切都還是民主程序，就是少數服從多數、多數尊重少數，絕對不是主席說了\n218\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄\n算，絕對不是主席說了算，所以這個……","quality":0.471},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:34:15.872000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:34:16.872000+08:00","text":"對，但是少數沒有辦法進來啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:34:16.872000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:34:17.872000+08:00","text":"再來就是 12 月 16 日……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:34:17.872000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:34:18.872000+08:00","text":"少數沒辦法進來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:34:18.872000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:34:19.872000+08:00","text":"12 月 16 日的情況我沒有辦法跟你們解釋，因為我早早地坐在裡面，我真的不知道外面發生\n什麼事。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:34:19.872000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:34:20.872000+08:00","text":"怎麼可能啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:34:20.872000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:34:21.872000+08:00","text":"你當主席，你不知道發生什麼事情？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:34:21.872000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:34:22.872000+08:00","text":"你沒有……","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:34:22.872000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:34:23.872000+08:00","text":"主席，怎麼可能你在這邊不知道外面發生什麼事情？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:34:23.872000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:34:24.872000+08:00","text":"只有國民黨的立委進來……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:34:24.872000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:34:25.872000+08:00","text":"你不會覺得很奇怪嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:34:25.872000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:34:26.872000+08:00","text":"沒有任何的官員，沒有任何的媒體……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:34:26.872000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:34:27.872000+08:00","text":"我們來開會，沒有人進來……","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:34:27.872000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:34:28.872000+08:00","text":"你不會覺得很奇怪嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:34:28.872000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:34:29.872000+08:00","text":"你怎麼會說你坐在這邊……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:34:29.872000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:34:30.872000+08:00","text":"睜眼說瞎話！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:34:30.872000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:34:31.872000+08:00","text":"你真的不知道發生什麼事情，不可能嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:34:31.872000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:34:32.872000+08:00","text":"尊重一下主席好嗎？","quality":0.125},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:34:32.872000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:34:33.872000+08:00","text":"少數進不來，怎麼……","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:34:33.872000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:34:34.872000+08:00","text":"尊重一下主席。對啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:34:34.872000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:34:35.872000+08:00","text":"少數根本沒有發言的機會啊！","quality":0.083},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:34:35.872000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:34:36.872000+08:00","text":"現在你們進不進得來，沒有需要在這裡對我說，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:34:36.872000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:34:37.872000+08:00","text":"我沒有阻擋你們，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:34:37.872000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:34:38.872000+08:00","text":"就這樣\n子。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:34:38.872000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:34:39.872000+08:00","text":"因為你是那一天的主席！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:34:39.872000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:34:40.872000+08:00","text":"你們那一天有圍著啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:34:40.872000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:34:41.872000+08:00","text":"你是那一天的主席，當然對你說啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:34:41.872000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:34:42.872000+08:00","text":"麻煩尊重一下主席的發言好嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:34:42.872000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:34:43.872000+08:00","text":"你沒有擋我們，你們這些人都在擋我們啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:34:43.872000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:34:44.872000+08:00","text":"所有國民黨的立委都在擋我們啊！","quality":0.071},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:34:44.872000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:34:45.872000+08:00","text":"主席，我要抗議！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:34:23.395000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:34:26.636000+08:00","text":"219\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0.467},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:34:26.636000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:34:27.636000+08:00","text":"主席當場是在主席臺上啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:34:27.636000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:34:28.636000+08:00","text":"怎麼會說你在這邊，然後你不知道 16 日發生什麼事情，你不會覺得很奇怪嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:34:28.636000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:34:29.636000+08:00","text":"當天\n只有國民黨的立委進來……","quality":0.083},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:34:29.636000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:34:30.636000+08:00","text":"請你們尊重一下主席的發言，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:34:30.636000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:34:31.636000+08:00","text":"他讓我發言啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:34:31.636000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:34:32.636000+08:00","text":"還是要讓我發言啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:34:32.636000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:34:33.636000+08:00","text":"有，他現在讓我發言，所以主席，當天（16 日）\n開會就只有你們國民黨的立委在這邊，所有的官員、媒體都沒有在裡面，更何況民進黨的立委\n全部都被你們擋在外面啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:34:33.636000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:34:34.636000+08:00","text":"怎麼可能你那一天人坐在這邊不知道發生什麼事情，那你不會覺得\n很奇怪嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:34:34.636000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:34:35.636000+08:00","text":"我們人都在外面啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:34:35.636000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:34:36.636000+08:00","text":"根本進不來啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:34:36.636000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:34:37.636000+08:00","text":"所以根本就不是什麼少數要服從多數，少數連\n發聲的機會都沒有啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:34:37.636000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:34:38.636000+08:00","text":"結果主席你還講，我看你那天還講說門都打開了，大家都可以進來，沒\n有！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:34:38.636000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:34:39.636000+08:00","text":"門是打開的，只有國民黨可以進來，民進黨根本沒辦法進來嘛！","quality":0.04},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:34:39.636000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:34:40.636000+08:00","text":"所以 16 日那一天的程序根\n本就是很大的問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:34:40.636000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:34:41.636000+08:00","text":"如果 16 日是像今天這樣，你是主席，我們國民黨、民進黨立委、官員、媒體都在，大家就可\n以好好討論嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:34:41.636000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:34:42.636000+08:00","text":"但 16 日不是啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:34:42.636000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:34:43.636000+08:00","text":"16 日完全就只有你們國民黨在裡面開會，然後說表決通過，只\n花了 3 分鐘時間，然後我們一進來，你們大家全部都跑掉了，這叫開會嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:34:43.636000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:34:44.636000+08:00","text":"而且這麼重要的案\n子，你們要罷免多一票，公布民調 10 天要變成 3 天，這麼大的案子，難道不應該好好地討論嗎\n？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:34:28.417000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:37:31.616000+08:00","text":"所以今天雖然是變成黨團協商，但是應該再回到「上一動」，「上一動」就是針對這麼重要\n的案子，大家要來做討論，結果你「上一動」3 分鐘你就跳過了，然後就回到「這一動」，我相\n信「這一動」大概也是過水，等一下又跳到院長的協商，然後你們最終目的就是上個禮拜五買\n了那個保險還不夠，連署要附身分證影本還不夠，還不行，要買雙保險，再買一個保險就是罷\n免要多一票，大概你們的做法就是這樣，等到 1 月 16 日冷凍期過了之後，你們再來做一次，可\n能上個禮拜五的事情又會再發生一次。","quality":0.604},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:37:31.616000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:37:43.956333+08:00","text":"既然這件事情大家認為這麼重要，也像我們書記長所講的，你們已經有買一個保險了嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:37:43.956333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:37:56.296667+08:00","text":"你\n們買了一個保險，現在連署要附身分證影本，這個已經難度非常高了，就差不多了，我覺得就\n到此為止了啦！","quality":0.023},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:37:56.296667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:38:08.637000+08:00","text":"有關於罷免要多一票這件事情，我覺得不用急著在這個時候來做討論。","quality":0.103},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:38:08.637000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:38:14.102000+08:00","text":"好，不同的法案每個委員有不同的意見，我們都予以尊重，大家可以暢所欲言。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:38:17.165000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:38:23.310000+08:00","text":"許宇甄委員優先，然後張宏陸委員，接著再鄭天財委員。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:38:23.310000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:38:23.471000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:38:23.471000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:38:24.471000+08:00","text":"剛剛民進黨的委員特別提到說希望能夠好好地討論，不過大家可能忘記了\n，這個案子我其實在上個會期一開始就提出來，當時的高金召委也想要好好地討論，可是民進\n黨的委員占領主席臺兩次，我相信大家應該都還記憶猶新，可以看到在占領主席臺之後，完全\n不讓我們好好地討論，不讓我們好好地發言。","quality":0.008},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:38:24.471000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:38:25.471000+08:00","text":"現在講說要好好地討論，要好好地發言，那天我\n們在這邊也是要讓大家好好地討論，至於說民進黨委員為什麼沒有進來，我們就在現場，我們\n也不瞭解狀況。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:38:25.471000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:38:26.471000+08:00","text":"你不知道？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:38:26.471000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:38:27.471000+08:00","text":"你不知道我們沒有進來……","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:38:27.471000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:38:28.471000+08:00","text":"我們就在現場，請尊重一下我的發言，請尊重一下我的發言，我們就在現場……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:38:24.651000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:38:24.931000+08:00","text":"你們之前圍著……\n220\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:38:24.931000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:38:32.081455+08:00","text":"至於你們為什麼沒有辦法進來，我不清楚，我就在現場……","quality":0.045},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:38:32.081455+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:38:39.231909+08:00","text":"請尊重發言委員，好不好？","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:38:39.231909+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:38:46.382364+08:00","text":"請尊重發言委員。","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:38:46.382364+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:38:53.532818+08:00","text":"我就在現場，所以為什麼我會有兩個提案……","quality":0.059},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:38:53.532818+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:39:00.683273+08:00","text":"為什麼我會有兩個提案，我先說明一下……","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:39:00.683273+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:39:07.833727+08:00","text":"不要「裝痟仔」啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:39:07.833727+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:39:14.984182+08:00","text":"睜眼說瞎話。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:39:14.984182+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:39:22.134636+08:00","text":"剛剛你們在講話，我也沒有打擾你們哦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:39:22.134636+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:39:29.285091+08:00","text":"等一下你們可以再發言，你們可以發言……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:39:29.285091+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:39:36.435545+08:00","text":"民進黨的委員沒有進來……","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:39:36.435545+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:39:43.586000+08:00","text":"現在麻煩一下，等我發言完，你們要發言，我想大家都尊重，但是就互相尊重。","quality":0.033},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:39:43.586000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:39:57.801000+08:00","text":"至於為什麼要提兩個不同的，上個禮拜通過的是連署條件的部分，因為我們發覺很多連署都\n是造假抄名冊，還有死亡的連署，所以我們為什麼說要身分證影本，那是因為連署條件的問題\n。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:39:59.603000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:40:30.544000+08:00","text":"那這個版本不一樣，這個版本的話，主要是因為我們認為現在選罷法的門檻是 25%，造成了\n很多高票當選但低票就可以把他罷免的狀況，而且這個法案也不是只有我提，我想在上個會期\n，賴瑞隆、郭國文兩位委員也都有提出相同的法案，覺得不能讓多數的民意被少數否決，所以\n這是兩個不同的案子，不是什麼雙保險，因為它是不同的概念，一個是連署的問題，一個是罷\n免門檻能不能過的問題。","quality":0.585},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:40:34.788000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:40:51.163000+08:00","text":"基本上我這兩個提案是不同時間提出的，這個案子其實比較早提出，\n在上個會期一開始的時候就提出，可是因為民進黨一直霸占主席臺，完全不讓我們討論，所以\n一直拖到現在，當然徐欣瑩召委再度排案讓我們來討論，那上個會期已經是那樣的狀況，我必\n須要還原一個真實的狀況。","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:40:51.163000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:40:52.611000+08:00","text":"當然我們希望針對這個部分不要再有政治報復跟政治鬥爭的狀況，因為現在的部分很容易造\n成比如說我是 50%當選的，我的對手可能 30%當選，他就可以讓支持他的 30%選民來罷免我，\n因為只要 25%就會通過，我們不希望有這樣的狀況。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:40:52.611000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:40:54.059000+08:00","text":"再來就是因為現在很多的惡罷造成資源的\n浪費，包括我們知道這次基隆的罷免案，其實有 3,000 萬是針對罷免的支出，如果罷免成功可能\n要再重選一次，也就是短短一年多的時間就會有兩次大選、一次罷免選舉，可以說浪費的都是\n我們納稅人的民脂民膏，都是大家的血汗錢，所以我們認為不該有惡性罷免的狀況，才會提出\n這樣的一個草案，以上。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:40:54.059000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:40:55.507000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝許宇甄委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:40:55.507000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:40:56.955000+08:00","text":"我們希望大家不要干擾議事進行，不要阻撓開會，大家都可以充分地表達，充分地發言，委\n員會是如此，院會也是如此。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:40:56.955000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:40:58.403000+08:00","text":"接下來請張宏陸召委。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-12-26T15:40:58.403000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:40:59.851000+08:00","text":"其實我本來不想特別說，可是我在這邊要說一下，我在上一屆也是當召委，國民黨也\n是霸占主席臺不讓我開會好幾次，也是公投法、選罷法，也都是這些議題啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-12-26T15:40:59.851000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:43:07.229000+08:00","text":"可是我覺得我們\n現在討論這個內容，每個人都有自己的說法，我在這邊只說一個，召委，上一次是你當召委，\n221\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄\n我們很多人都已經說了，不管原因怎樣或是當時可能你也不知道，你就坐在主席臺，但我們確\n實是被擋到，我們是內政委員會的委員不能進來，在這個裡面，其實全國也都知道是什麼原因\n，但是在議事錄那邊，你不能讓我們變成沒有開會啊！","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-12-26T15:43:07.229000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:43:08.506000+08:00","text":"這個是永遠的，依立法院的公報，那邊\n是變成我們沒來開會耶！","quality":0.04},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-12-26T15:43:08.506000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:43:09.783000+08:00","text":"我覺得在處理這個之前，我們針對這一點是不是大家要用腦筋怎麼來\n處理──你的議事錄怎麼去備註或什麼的、因為什麼原因有些人沒有？","quality":0.017},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-12-26T15:43:09.783000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:44:03.061000+08:00","text":"你要說你會開完了或怎麼樣，那個是一件事情，可是我覺得身為內政委員會的召委，如果我\n遇到這樣，我會想辦法把這個寫清楚，因為我們內政委員會不管怎麼樣，確實是要進來開會但\n沒有辦法開會，連上面的議事錄都寫我們沒有來開會，這個對我們來說，大家都知道我們身為\n立法委員，我來了然後被寫成我沒有來開會，這對我們是非常大的不公平。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-12-26T15:44:03.701000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:44:45.133000+08:00","text":"不管那一天會有沒\n有開成，我們以前不管怎麼樣，至少會讓人家簽到，你簽完到再把他拖出去也是一件事情，但\n不能說連簽到的機會都沒有，我覺得這一點我們要共同用智慧來解決，不然你對我們其他幾個\n內政委員會的委員非常不公平，你的議事錄一輩子跟著所有的人，我覺這一點我們要先處理啦\n！","quality":0.569},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:44:45.133000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:44:55.905500+08:00","text":"好，謝謝張宏陸召委。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:44:55.905500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:45:06.678000+08:00","text":"接下來請鄭天財委員，等一下請王美惠委員。","quality":0.056},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T15:45:06.678000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:45:15.588000+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：好，這個選罷法，許宇甄委員在今年 5 月就提案了，所以在上個會期也\n曾經排審，然後這個會期我們徐召委他也排審，但是大家都很清楚，召委就是沒有辦法到他的\n位置，因為都被霸占了主席臺，才會有大家剛剛所講的。","quality":0.3},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T15:45:15.588000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:45:28.612000+08:00","text":"當然這不是第一次，剛剛大家都有舉\n例過，過去第 9 屆立法院，譬如說修一例一休，那時候也是 1 分鐘，要舉這種例子就很多了，\n所以去談這個，變成我們立法院……","quality":0.129},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:45:28.612000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:45:41.636000+08:00","text":"天財兄，可是那個時候你們還是有在裡面，我覺得例子還是要舉一樣的。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T15:45:41.636000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:45:54.660000+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：我剛剛舉的，我是很輕微地講，很輕微地講說……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T15:45:54.660000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:46:07.684000+08:00","text":"例子要舉一樣的。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T15:46:07.684000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:46:20.708000+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：之前召委他要主持，就不讓他主持啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T15:46:20.708000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:46:33.732000+08:00","text":"至少我們以前會讓你們去主持，\n大家才可以發言，上次是你們連讓他主持、連讓大家發言的機會都沒有啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T15:46:33.732000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:46:46.756000+08:00","text":"所以我只是這樣說\n而已，我剛剛是比較輕微地把它敘述一下，所以大家都有這樣，這個是不是我們立法院大家都\n要檢討的地方？","quality":0.058},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T15:46:46.756000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:46:59.780000+08:00","text":"這個部分是這樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T15:46:59.780000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:47:12.804000+08:00","text":"再來，選罷法有關罷免的連署，這個一定要有身分證影印本，這個是一定要的，為什麼呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T15:47:12.804000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:47:25.828000+08:00","text":"因為公民投票法也這樣修了，連署也要附身分證。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T15:47:25.828000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:47:38.852000+08:00","text":"至於今天這個案，大家當然可以討論，就像今天朝野協商大家盡情地發言，很好，沒有霸占\n朝野協商的主席臺，這也很好，所以這個部分是這樣，因為剛才許宇甄委員也提到了高票當選\n結果低票就被罷免，這個絕對是需要去檢討的地方，所以才會提出選罷法的修正，大家認為應\n該要怎麼修比較適當，這個應該大家來討論，以上。","quality":0.083},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:47:38.852000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:47:51.876000+08:00","text":"請王美惠委員，等一下請吳琪銘委員以及黃捷委員。","quality":0.238},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:47:51.876000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:48:04.900000+08:00","text":"主席，今天我要表達的是，在 12 月 16 日那天，說實在的，我們到臺北來開會，我不\n222\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄\n曾一天沒有來，所以你們那天致使我在立法院的公報裡面，我王美惠有一天沒有來開會，我覺\n得這非常不應該，因為我有來開會，但是被你們擋在外面，所以我希望主席對於那天有來開會\n的人不能說他沒有來開會。","quality":0.023},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:48:04.900000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:48:17.924000+08:00","text":"因為主席你說你不知道，你在裡面，難道你不會覺得很奇怪？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:48:17.924000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:48:30.948000+08:00","text":"修這個法可以 1 分鐘就處理，3\n分鐘就送出去，主席，以你的想法，你不會覺得很奇怪，那天民進黨怎麼沒有半個人來？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:48:30.948000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:48:43.972000+08:00","text":"不會\n覺得很奇怪嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:48:43.972000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:48:56.996000+08:00","text":"大家都有來開會，不曾缺席的人沒有來，在同事之間，你也會想說奇怪，全勤\n的這些學生怎麼還沒來？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:48:56.996000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:49:10.020000+08:00","text":"老師也會看一下、瞧一眼，完全沒有！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:49:10.020000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:49:23.044000+08:00","text":"主席，我覺得 12 月 16 日對於\n有來開會的人，說我們沒有來，我覺得這非常不應該啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:49:23.044000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:49:36.068000+08:00","text":"等一下要說選罷法的任何條款我們再\n來說，我是要請教主席，12 月 16 日我們確確實實有來開會，但是沒辦法進來，以上。","quality":0.109},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:49:36.068000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:49:36.188000+08:00","text":"好，那本席也簡單回應，確實啦！","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:49:36.188000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:49:40.330000+08:00","text":"我第 8 屆當立委，第 11 屆進來，我發現很多很奇怪的事\n，我一直在適應，所以我也覺得很奇怪，為什麼我當召委可以被阻擋，就是不能開會，這也很\n奇怪嘛！","quality":0.746},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:49:40.330000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:49:48.598303+08:00","text":"我們院會的公物可以被破壞，玻璃可以打破，然後也讓大家沒辦法開會，所以確實啦\n！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:49:48.598303+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:49:56.866606+08:00","text":"很多一連串很奇怪的事，所以讓我很多事情只能按照規則、法規走，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:49:56.866606+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:50:05.134909+08:00","text":"沒有啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:50:05.134909+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:50:13.403212+08:00","text":"主席你覺得很奇怪……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:50:13.403212+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:50:21.671515+08:00","text":"王美惠委員後面接著請吳琪銘委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:50:21.671515+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:50:29.939818+08:00","text":"沒有啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:50:29.939818+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:50:38.208121+08:00","text":"主席你覺得很奇怪你就要改進，結果你還更奇怪！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:50:38.208121+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:50:46.476424+08:00","text":"來開會沒簽到，這樣不是\n更奇怪？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員琪銘","start":"2024-12-26T15:50:46.476424+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:50:54.744727+08:00","text":"主席，今天選罷法政黨協商，我覺得一點意義也沒有，等於是要過水嘛！","quality":0.107},{"speaker":"吳委員琪銘","start":"2024-12-26T15:50:54.744727+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:51:03.013030+08:00","text":"要送院會嘛\n！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員琪銘","start":"2024-12-26T15:51:03.013030+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:51:11.281333+08:00","text":"根本就不可能有共識，這你也很清楚啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員琪銘","start":"2024-12-26T15:51:11.281333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:51:19.549636+08:00","text":"在 12 月 16 日那天，在這裡我也要表達，那天真的\n是非常遺憾，所以今天開這個政黨協商我覺得一點意義也沒有，有那麼多政府官員，還有我們\n在區域那麼多委員，有的從高雄專程趕來，這真的是意義不好啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員琪銘","start":"2024-12-26T15:51:19.549636+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:51:27.817939+08:00","text":"因為我們委員會過去大家都\n標榜說內政是很團結，內政也是最和諧，所以在未來也是可以再繼續永續下去，但是今天這個\n會議本席認為意義不大，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:51:27.817939+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:51:36.086242+08:00","text":"謝謝吳琪銘委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:51:36.086242+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:51:44.354545+08:00","text":"我們議事程序該討論的、該開的會我們還是該開，就像民進黨委員常常也有很多焦土戰術、\n冗長發言嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:51:44.354545+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:51:52.622848+08:00","text":"我們有的時候也覺得可能不一定很有意義，但是大家互相尊重，所以本席擔任會\n議主席，我該主持的、我該進行的，我會如實進行。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:51:52.622848+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:52:00.891152+08:00","text":"接下來請黃捷委員，之後請陳冠廷委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:52:00.891152+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:52:09.159455+08:00","text":"好，謝謝主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:52:09.159455+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:52:17.427758+08:00","text":"我還是要講一下，因為 12 月 16 日當天，我不知道大家可不可以回顧一\n下當天的記憶，其實媒體上面都報導得非常清楚，所有在場的民進黨委員沒有一個可以進到會\n議室，我們是完全被限制人身自由，這也是立法院破天荒第一次因為被限制人身自由沒有辦法\n進到會議室，如果主席失憶了，許宇甄委員失憶了，麻煩你們看一下當天的畫面，當天的畫面\n哪裡有呢？","quality":0.034},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:52:17.427758+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:52:25.696061+08:00","text":"媒體一定有，為什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:52:25.696061+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:52:33.964364+08:00","text":"因為媒體跟我們一起被擋在外面，媒體也沒辦法進來，然後\n現在你看媒體在那邊，他也覺得哦！","quality":0.026},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:52:33.964364+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:52:42.232667+08:00","text":"竟然可以進來了，他們應該也覺得很無奈吧！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:52:42.232667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:52:50.500970+08:00","text":"當天在會議\n室的畫面他們自己都拍不到，大家回想一下，當天會議室的畫面是怎麼拿到的呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:52:50.500970+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:52:58.769273+08:00","text":"是國民黨自\n223\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄\n己的直播、自己的錄影畫面放送出去，我們才知道會議室裡面到底發生什麼事情，因為連媒體\n、連部會官員──部會官員那一天也很想進來開會啊！","quality":0.138},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:52:58.769273+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:53:07.037576+08:00","text":"結果他們也都被擋在外面耶！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:53:07.037576+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:53:15.305879+08:00","text":"這裡面沒\n有任何該開會的人可以進來，只有國民黨自己坐在這邊自導自演自嗨，然後跟大家說好！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:53:15.305879+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:53:23.574182+08:00","text":"我們\n通過了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:53:23.574182+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:53:31.842485+08:00","text":"請問這樣的會議真的算數嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:53:31.842485+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:53:40.110788+08:00","text":"剛剛主席不是說該開的、該進行的程序要進行，這個是\n該進行的程序嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:53:40.110788+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:53:48.379091+08:00","text":"你不是說要互相尊重？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:53:48.379091+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:53:56.647394+08:00","text":"少數要服從多數，那多數也要尊重少數啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:53:56.647394+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:54:04.915697+08:00","text":"這個才是\n立法院合議制的精神，不是嗎？","quality":0.188},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:54:04.915697+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:54:13.184000+08:00","text":"主席剛剛也說當家不要鬧事，可是立法院當家的從來都是國民黨，怎麼會一直讓少數沒有辦\n法好好地表達意見呢？","quality":0.128},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:54:13.184000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:54:26.868000+08:00","text":"所以我主張那一天的會議完全是非法而且無效的會議，是不是在這邊請\n求大家，我們不要讓這種破天荒的惡例變成是立法院的常態？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:54:26.868000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:54:32.250000+08:00","text":"此例一開，未來不得了，每個人\n就是自己躲在角落說我們開會說了算。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:54:32.730000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:54:41.618000+08:00","text":"如果每個召委都可以躲在角落說好，我們自己一群人大\n家手拉手，大家舉手說會議通過，這樣就算數的話，立法院還需要開門嗎？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:54:41.618000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:54:45.485000+08:00","text":"是不是關門算了？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:54:45.485000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:54:50.288000+08:00","text":"然後剛剛鄭天財委員提到的那個例子一例一休，後來就退回重審啦！","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:54:50.929000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:54:52.050000+08:00","text":"後來就回到委員會啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:54:52.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:54:58.835000+08:00","text":"因\n為大家就是希望說一樣，要各退一步，不要讓立法院變成這種有惡例的狀況出現嘛！","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:54:59.675000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:55:02.217000+08:00","text":"所以是不\n是我們回到委員會？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:55:03.358000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:55:05.019000+08:00","text":"今天協商開了也沒有意義了啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:55:05.419000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:55:09.742000+08:00","text":"你們在這邊過水，急著要過，其實當家不\n要這樣子鬧事吧！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:55:10.583000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:55:11.023000+08:00","text":"你們是多數耶！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:55:11.023000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:55:14.425000+08:00","text":"你們多數到最後，好好地討論，讓社會瞭解，讓大眾瞭解之\n後，你們表決還是會贏啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:55:14.425000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:55:37.427000+08:00","text":"大家都知道你們表決會贏，這個是已經知道可能會發生的結果，那\n中間的議事過程不能拿出召委的高度、召委的氣度，做一個有格局、願意來照顧所有立法院夥\n伴的召委嗎？","quality":0.343},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:55:37.427000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:55:38.768000+08:00","text":"把程序完備吧！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:55:39.408000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:55:40.568000+08:00","text":"把程序完備吧！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:55:41.168000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:55:44.689000+08:00","text":"是不是就退回委員會重新好好審議？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:55:44.689000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:55:47.410000+08:00","text":"至少讓大家\n理解現在到底在審什麼啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:55:48.030000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:55:53.691000+08:00","text":"像今天不只是審許宇甄委員提的當選門檻加 1，裡面有多少人的版本啊！","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:55:54.292000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:55:58.292000+08:00","text":"包括陳冠廷委員的版\n本，當天也都沒有被處理，沒有被討論，他甚至沒有辦法來提案說明耶！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:56:00.673000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:56:03.135000+08:00","text":"好歹讓我們提案的委\n員來說明一下吧！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:56:03.915000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:56:07.858000+08:00","text":"翁曉玲還提了一個選前 10 天改 3 天，欸！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:56:07.858000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:56:10.200000+08:00","text":"這個受害最深的是宋楚瑜欸！","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:56:11.401000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:56:17.846000+08:00","text":"召委\n，宋楚瑜主席從當時到現在，他還是無法釋懷，直到這一次大選他還是不斷地告訴大家說國民\n黨就是假民調的創始者欸！","quality":0.49},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:56:17.846000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:56:24.571636+08:00","text":"你都不用替他想一想嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:56:24.571636+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:56:31.297273+08:00","text":"後面還有好幾個案，蘇清泉也提了千分之\n三驗票要改千分之十，其實每一個都茲事體大，在座每個人都是選舉選出來的，每一個選舉的\n變革都會對選舉造成非常重大的影響，更不用說這個 10 天改 3 天的民調禁制期，大家不要忘記\n去年因為民調受害最大的就是國民黨，結果你們現在忘記傷痛了嗎？","quality":0.017},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:56:31.297273+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:56:38.022909+08:00","text":"怎麼會……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:56:38.022909+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:56:44.748545+08:00","text":"宋楚瑜。對啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:56:44.748545+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:56:51.474182+08:00","text":"怎麼會讓這個假老二的民調再一次來傷害你們呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:56:51.474182+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:56:58.199818+08:00","text":"所以拜託大家，這些法案現在\n都在我們的桌上，結果大家完全沒有討論就要這樣過水送出去，你們真的可以接受嗎？","quality":0.043},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:56:58.199818+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:57:04.925455+08:00","text":"國民黨\n可以接受嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:57:04.925455+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:57:11.651091+08:00","text":"宋楚瑜可以接受嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:57:11.651091+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:57:18.376727+08:00","text":"更不用說去年還有一個例子，剛剛易餘委員也有提到，那個\n是中國有介入欸！","quality":0.097},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:57:18.376727+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:57:25.102364+08:00","text":"中共介選的假民調已經被檢調發現了……對啊！","quality":0.056},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:57:25.102364+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:57:31.828000+08:00","text":"他們現在就是用這樣，讓你 3 天沒有辦法去處理啊！","quality":0.05},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:57:31.828000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:57:41.211000+08:00","text":"竟然有國外的境外勢力要透過破壞選舉制度來干預我們的選舉，那我們是不是應該更謹\n慎來討論每一次的選舉變革呢？","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:57:41.211000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:57:49.432500+08:00","text":"在座大家應該都很珍視我們臺灣民主的選舉制度才對，而且大\n224\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄\n家也要知道，現在的選舉制度是世界認可的，可信度很高，有公正性，然後也都彼此認同，這\n就是我們一直以來引以為傲的民主制度，那我們在這邊把它越修越爛，改到這樣子，為了保護\n自己，成何體統呢？","quality":0.254},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:57:49.432500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:57:57.654000+08:00","text":"而且我在院會也有講過，我自己都是經歷過罷免的人，我當時候也沒有說\n要提出這種鬼東西，不知羞恥來保護自己啊！","quality":0.042},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:57:57.654000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:58:05.875500+08:00","text":"韓國瑜也沒有啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:58:05.875500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:58:14.097000+08:00","text":"所以我們都是欣然接受遊戲規\n則長什麼樣子，大家就去走，用最大的努力去爭取民意嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:58:14.097000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:58:22.318500+08:00","text":"怎麼會在這裡擅自改變遊戲規則，\n只為了自我保護鞏固自己的權力呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:58:22.318500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:58:30.540000+08:00","text":"這種東西人民真的沒辦法接受啦！","quality":0.071},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:58:30.540000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:58:38.761500+08:00","text":"所以拜託、拜託，我們\n就是好好地回到委員會，你好好討論，如果人民都接受說沒關係，就是用當選門檻加 1，我們到\n時候也會欣然接受啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:58:38.761500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:58:46.983000+08:00","text":"這個都是人民的選擇，但是你不能讓程序不完備啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:58:46.983000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:58:55.204500+08:00","text":"程序正義是民主的\n第一步，你程序完備了，我們再來討論下一步，好不好？","quality":0.034},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:58:55.204500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:59:03.426000+08:00","text":"拜託，請主席裁示。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:59:03.426000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:59:20.356000+08:00","text":"選罷法在本屆的第 1 會期排兩次都沒辦法開會，這個會期的第 1 次排案也是沒辦法開會，所\n以這個到底是誰造成的，我想你們也應該去面對這個問題。","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:59:20.356000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:59:25.620000+08:00","text":"主席，沒辦法開會，議事的攻防……","quality":0.083},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:59:25.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:59:27.501000+08:00","text":"不代表你可以用威權、集權的手段，因為這個真的要導正視聽啦！","quality":0.462},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:59:27.661000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:59:29.702000+08:00","text":"大家必須要知道說再\n怎麼樣……","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:59:29.702000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:59:32.184000+08:00","text":"主席請你發言你再發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:59:32.184000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:59:43.171000+08:00","text":"我們議事的杯葛也不能限制立委的人身自由來強硬地通過，好不好？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T15:59:43.171000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:59:44.171000+08:00","text":"現在是拿麥克風大家都要講，主席在講話，我們尊重一下主席嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:59:44.171000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:59:45.171000+08:00","text":"好，沒關係。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:59:43.171000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:59:50.796000+08:00","text":"接著第二點就是說，每一個委員他提的法案我們都尊重，所以每個人都可以充\n分表達，至於支持不支持，我想這個就透過民主程序。","quality":0.642},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T15:59:50.796000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:59:51.796000+08:00","text":"接下來請陳冠廷委員，陳冠廷委員後面我們請蔡書記長易餘，接著請麥玉珍委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T15:59:51.796000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:59:52.796000+08:00","text":"可以讓我先講嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-12-26T15:59:52.796000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:59:53.796000+08:00","text":"按照排序跟程序。","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T15:59:53.796000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:59:54.796000+08:00","text":"因為你們發言那麼多次，我都沒有發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-12-26T15:59:54.796000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:59:55.796000+08:00","text":"我也還沒發言啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T15:59:55.796000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:59:56.796000+08:00","text":"沒有，你比較晚到啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:59:56.796000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:59:57.796000+08:00","text":"沒有，一個人一次啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T15:59:57.796000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:59:58.796000+08:00","text":"對，我是說各黨輪流嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T15:59:58.796000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:59:59.796000+08:00","text":"要照規矩來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T15:59:59.796000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:00:00.796000+08:00","text":"照規矩來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T16:00:00.796000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:00:01.796000+08:00","text":"照主席說的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T16:00:01.796000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:00:02.796000+08:00","text":"麥委員，不好意思，因為我已經先答應他們，在看到您舉手之前，不好意思。","quality":0.034},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T16:00:02.796000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:00:03.796000+08:00","text":"什麼毛病？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-12-26T16:00:03.796000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:00:04.796000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-12-26T16:00:04.796000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:00:05.796000+08:00","text":"主席，這個……","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T16:00:05.796000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:00:06.796000+08:00","text":"什麼毛病？","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T16:00:06.796000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:00:07.796000+08:00","text":"我講這樣子是不可以嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T15:59:53.417000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T15:59:54.458000+08:00","text":"225\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0.467},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T15:59:54.458000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:59:56.527079+08:00","text":"不行啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T15:59:56.527079+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T15:59:58.596158+08:00","text":"我問一聲不行嗎？","quality":0.143},{"speaker":null,"start":"2024-12-26T15:59:58.596158+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:00:00.665237+08:00","text":"鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 委員：他爭取而已。","quality":0.111},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T16:00:00.665237+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:00:02.734316+08:00","text":"對，爭取而已啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T16:00:02.734316+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:00:04.803395+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T16:00:04.803395+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:00:06.872474+08:00","text":"能不能講是主席決定。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T16:00:06.872474+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:00:08.941553+08:00","text":"就按順序來，為什麼要……","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T16:00:08.941553+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:00:11.010632+08:00","text":"我是爭取而已，跟毛病有什麼關係？","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T16:00:11.010632+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:00:13.079711+08:00","text":"講話就是這樣子！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T16:00:13.079711+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:00:15.148789+08:00","text":"你們黃國昌最討厭插隊。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T16:00:15.148789+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:00:17.217868+08:00","text":"不是說很討厭插隊嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T16:00:17.217868+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:00:19.286947+08:00","text":"插什麼隊啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T16:00:19.286947+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:00:21.356026+08:00","text":"我有欠你哦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T16:00:21.356026+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:00:23.425105+08:00","text":"你剛剛不是在插隊嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T16:00:23.425105+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:00:25.494184+08:00","text":"人家在講話，主席在講話，你在插隊嘛！","quality":0.067},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T16:00:25.494184+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:00:27.563263+08:00","text":"插什麼隊啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T16:00:27.563263+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:00:29.632342+08:00","text":"人家有欠你嗎？","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T16:00:29.632342+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:00:31.701421+08:00","text":"為什麼要插隊啊？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T16:00:31.701421+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:00:33.770500+08:00","text":"你舉手就會讓你發言啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T16:00:33.770500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:00:35.839579+08:00","text":"我舉手是說可不可以，不可以由主席決定……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T16:00:35.839579+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:00:37.908658+08:00","text":"為什麼你要先發言？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T16:00:37.908658+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:00:39.977737+08:00","text":"你就舉手，按照順序來不行嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T16:00:39.977737+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:00:42.046816+08:00","text":"不是你決定，你是哪一根蔥啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T16:00:42.046816+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:00:44.115895+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T16:00:44.115895+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:00:46.184974+08:00","text":"人家有欠你嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T16:00:46.184974+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:00:48.254053+08:00","text":"哪一根蔥……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T16:00:48.254053+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:00:50.323132+08:00","text":"不是很討厭插隊嗎？對啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T16:00:50.323132+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:00:52.392211+08:00","text":"我講話，插什麼嘴！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T16:00:52.392211+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:00:54.461289+08:00","text":"因為黃國昌不是最討厭插隊嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T16:00:54.461289+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:00:56.530368+08:00","text":"我們尊重陳冠廷委員發言，好不好？","quality":0.071},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T16:00:56.530368+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:00:58.599447+08:00","text":"不能插嘴……","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T16:00:58.599447+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:01:00.668526+08:00","text":"他不能插嘴，是主席在講話，他插什麼嘴！","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T16:01:00.668526+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:01:02.737605+08:00","text":"讓陳冠廷委員發言啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T16:01:02.737605+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:01:04.806684+08:00","text":"你們不讓陳冠廷委員發言嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T16:01:04.806684+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:01:06.875763+08:00","text":"不是說不能插隊嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T16:01:06.875763+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:01:08.944842+08:00","text":"插什麼隊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T16:01:08.944842+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:01:11.013921+08:00","text":"插什麼隊啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T16:01:11.013921+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:01:13.083000+08:00","text":"你們最大是不是？","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T16:01:13.083000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T16:01:14.924000+08:00","text":"民進黨最大，民進黨講什麼都對……","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T16:01:14.924000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:01:15.924000+08:00","text":"那你插什麼隊嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T16:01:14.924000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T16:01:15.884000+08:00","text":"別人講都不行，是這樣嗎？","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T16:01:15.884000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:01:19.294052+08:00","text":"黃國昌說不能插隊，你們都沒有聽黃國昌的話！","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T16:01:19.294052+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:01:22.704103+08:00","text":"你們要不要讓陳冠廷委員發言？","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T16:01:22.704103+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:01:26.114155+08:00","text":"請尊重一下陳冠廷委員好嗎？對啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T16:01:26.114155+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:01:29.524207+08:00","text":"我舉手是爭取，如果不行的話主席決定，不是你在那邊說什麼毛病，講話要尊\n226\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄\n重！","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T16:01:29.524207+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:01:32.934259+08:00","text":"剛剛麥玉珍委員是在跟你們溝通可不可以讓他先講。","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T16:01:32.934259+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:01:36.344310+08:00","text":"不是大聲就贏！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T16:01:36.344310+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:01:39.754362+08:00","text":"不是人多就贏！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T16:01:39.754362+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:01:43.164414+08:00","text":"他要插隊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T16:01:43.164414+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:01:46.574466+08:00","text":"他沒有要插隊，剛剛是在跟你們溝通可不可以讓他先講，如果不行就不行了嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T16:01:46.574466+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:01:49.984517+08:00","text":"我是問主席可不可以，不行的話主席就說不行，你是主席嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T16:01:49.984517+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:01:53.394569+08:00","text":"你是召委嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T16:01:53.394569+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:01:56.804621+08:00","text":"他剛剛是跟各位溝通可不可以讓他先講，如果不同意那就沒關係啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T16:01:56.804621+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:02:00.214672+08:00","text":"他也沒有說他要\n插隊啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T16:02:00.214672+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:02:03.624724+08:00","text":"每一個人都可以舉手，每一個人都是平起平坐的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T16:02:03.624724+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:02:07.034776+08:00","text":"公民素養而已，很困難嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T16:02:07.034776+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:02:10.444828+08:00","text":"你有素養嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T16:02:10.444828+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:02:13.854879+08:00","text":"主席在講話，你都插嘴了，你的素養在哪裡？","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T16:02:13.854879+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:02:17.264931+08:00","text":"他沒有說他要插隊，他是跟你們溝通……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T16:02:17.264931+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:02:20.674983+08:00","text":"你就回去問黃國昌！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T16:02:20.674983+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:02:24.085034+08:00","text":"你就回去問黃國昌！","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T16:02:24.085034+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:02:27.495086+08:00","text":"他是跟你們溝通可不可以讓他先講嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T16:02:27.495086+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:02:30.905138+08:00","text":"有什麼好插隊？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T16:02:30.905138+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:02:34.315190+08:00","text":"講個話而已，有什麼好插隊啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T16:02:34.315190+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:02:37.725241+08:00","text":"我可以舉手，主席決定，不是你們決定！","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T16:02:37.725241+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:02:41.135293+08:00","text":"沒有人要插隊。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T16:02:41.135293+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:02:44.545345+08:00","text":"我們有欠你嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T16:02:44.545345+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:02:47.955397+08:00","text":"有欠你哦？","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T16:02:47.955397+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:02:51.365448+08:00","text":"我問而已，主席再裁示……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T16:02:51.365448+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:02:54.775500+08:00","text":"你拿麥克風了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T16:02:54.775500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:02:58.185552+08:00","text":"我拿麥克風，剛才他也是拿麥克風啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T16:02:58.185552+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:03:01.595603+08:00","text":"他可以，我們不可以是不是？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T16:03:01.595603+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:03:05.005655+08:00","text":"什麼他拿麥克風，是你先拿的！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T16:03:05.005655+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:03:08.415707+08:00","text":"剛才主席在講話，他還是一樣在旁邊插嘴啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T16:03:08.415707+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:03:11.825759+08:00","text":"對不對？好啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T16:03:11.825759+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:03:15.235810+08:00","text":"你要不要讓陳冠廷講話啦？","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T16:03:15.235810+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:03:18.645862+08:00","text":"都是尊重主席啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T16:03:18.645862+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:03:22.055914+08:00","text":"所以我們是要問而已，每一個人都有權利去問。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T16:03:22.055914+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:03:25.465966+08:00","text":"好，不行！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T16:03:25.465966+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:03:28.876017+08:00","text":"主席，你先裁決。","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2024-12-26T16:03:28.876017+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:03:32.286069+08:00","text":"裁決就讓主席裁決啊！好啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T16:03:32.286069+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:03:35.696121+08:00","text":"我們請陳冠廷委員發言，陳冠廷委員請。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T16:03:35.696121+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:03:39.106172+08:00","text":"哪一根蔥！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T16:03:39.106172+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:03:42.516224+08:00","text":"「黃國蔥」。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T16:03:42.516224+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:03:45.926276+08:00","text":"黃國昌啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T16:03:45.926276+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:03:49.336328+08:00","text":"「黃國蔥」啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-12-26T16:03:49.336328+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:03:52.746379+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-12-26T16:03:52.746379+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:03:56.156431+08:00","text":"剛才我們提到冗長發言也是議事的一部分，可是拒絕我們進入議場或者是\n227\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄\n會議的地方，那就沒有達成冗長發言的可能性，所以在最基本的程序它就沒有完備，這點我們\n是很遺憾，剛才每一位委員也都表達抗議了，所以剛才幾個委員有談到，希望能夠把這個程序\n完備，到委員會裡面去審。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-12-26T16:03:56.156431+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:03:59.566483+08:00","text":"其實包含麥玉珍委員，我們有各個不同的意見，剛才也花很多時間\n，這也是冗長發言的一部分，我們到時候討論，可能有些時候在意見上面完全是有衝突的，但\n是我們還是可以去討論這些事情，所以為什麼這幾年我們一直強調委員會中心主義也是這樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-12-26T16:03:59.566483+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:04:02.976534+08:00","text":"上一次我們看到包含門都已經直接被封起來了，只留一個出口，而那個出口前面又有國民黨\n委員來去做阻擋，所以其他意見沒辦法進來，是物理上的沒有辦法進來，那這一點我是希望主\n席能夠重新再思考，可不可以把上一次的這些東西想一次，然後我們重新再到委員會來討論選\n罷法？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-12-26T16:04:02.976534+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:04:06.386586+08:00","text":"其實也不是只有多一票、少一票可不可以通過罷免而已，選舉罷免法裡面還有很多細微\n的部分，儘管是幾個字的變動，它就會更改到整個我們未來民主包含選舉制度的改變，它的影\n響是很深的。","quality":0.089},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-12-26T16:04:06.386586+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:04:09.796638+08:00","text":"像我自己是提選罷法的第五十二條，很可惜我上次就沒有機會說明，很感謝剛才黃捷委員替\n我們爭取，我們也希望有一個機會來說明，我看到這一次的報告資料中，書面資料也沒有特別\n地改變，因為我沒有機會說明，所以他們才沒有辦法反映給我嘛！","quality":0.069},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-12-26T16:04:09.796638+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:04:13.206690+08:00","text":"我們在裡面有提到，非政黨\n推薦候選人是否要授權使用該政黨負責人頭像，因為我們發覺到上一次的選舉，其實很多時候\n有一些跟中國方面關係密切的人，他蓄意利用假錯亂訊息，把他跟我們那時候的執政黨黨首的\n照片合成，去做分票的做法，這個做法不只是在一個縣市，在全臺灣各縣市都有，這就是國安\n上面的一個漏洞跟危機。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-12-26T16:04:13.206690+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:04:16.616741+08:00","text":"在中選會上面，我們是希望透過這樣子的法條修正來去完備，可是我們上次沒有辦法討論，\n為什麼沒辦法討論？","quality":0.089},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-12-26T16:04:16.616741+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:04:20.026793+08:00","text":"因為我們沒辦法進來討論，我們沒有辦法用議事冗長、冗長辯論的方式去\n把這個嚴重性提出來，為什麼沒有辦法？","quality":0.043},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-12-26T16:04:20.026793+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:04:23.436845+08:00","text":"因為我們被物理上的隔絕了，所以我們現在講的不是\n說過去誰、誰、誰，我們怎麼樣然後你們怎麼樣，不管是我們怎麼樣、你們怎麼樣，我們基本\n上還是有一定的程序會走，你要簽到，然後不管你是在主席臺裡面爭取發言的機會，或者是在\n這個地方、在這個場域裡面做肢體上面的推擠，都還是有一定的制度，如果這一次這個制度被\n破壞的話，那以後在議會上面的議會政治就不是議會政治囉！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2024-12-26T16:04:23.436845+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:04:26.846897+08:00","text":"那就是全面想辦法用其他的，用\n陰招、用各種方式讓你物理上面沒有辦法進來表達你的意見，那就糟糕了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T16:04:26.846897+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:04:30.256948+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T16:04:30.256948+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:04:33.667000+08:00","text":"接著請蔡書記長易餘。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T16:04:33.667000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T16:06:39.394000+08:00","text":"主席，我們今天協商，基本上民眾黨麥玉珍我不知道他會不會再進來，看起來今天協\n商會變成只是過水，所以我們還是利用這個機會，在我們能發言的時候還是要跟主席講，如果\n你那一天主持議事，你看到民進黨沒有一個委員有辦法進來議場，那你心裡沒有覺得奇怪，我\n想要請教主席的是，為什麼官員一個都沒有進來？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T16:06:39.394000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T16:06:39.894000+08:00","text":"我們今天在朝野協商，官員也是來啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T16:06:45.176000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T16:06:49.119000+08:00","text":"更何\n況在委員會審查的時候，官員更需要進來啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T16:06:50.319000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T16:07:05.448000+08:00","text":"那一天官員都沒有進來，媒體朋友一個也沒進來\n，所以主席，我覺得不要睜眼說瞎話，議事攻防都有，剛剛鄭天財委員舉了一例一休的時候，\n一例一休的時候成就了誰？","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T16:07:05.448000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T16:07:15.659000+08:00","text":"成就了蔣萬安，因為他占領主席臺，一個人發言了兩個小時，所有\n228\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄\n的媒體把他捧得很高，成就了蔣萬安啊！","quality":0.649},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T16:07:15.879000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T16:07:46.615000+08:00","text":"大家都知道，那他也是在做他的議事攻防，他不想讓\n民進黨開成會，當然後來民進黨用我們的方式，希望可以把一例一休在當時完成修法，當時雖\n然我們在很短的時間把它送出委員會，但是國民黨一樣是有簽到，在議事錄上國民黨一樣是有\n出席的，那後來一例一休的處理怎樣？","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T16:07:46.615000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T16:07:52.578000+08:00","text":"說民進黨在處理上因為時間太匆促，沒有讓大家充分發\n言，後來經過朝野協商把它退回委員會，這是一例一休的狀況。","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T16:07:52.578000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T16:08:13.039000+08:00","text":"後來還有一次是會計法的修法\n，就是陳水扁總統在國務機要費的一個狀況，也是因為委員會處理有瑕疵，後來還是把它退回\n委員會，所以我覺得主席就在你的一念之間，你身為召委，內政委員會的另外一位召委宏陸也\n在這邊啊！","quality":0.559},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T16:08:13.039000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:08:47.131000+08:00","text":"他也覺得內政委員會未來還是希望大家是可以和諧開會的一個空間，而不是說我一\n旦想要反對你的意見，我不想讓你的意見進來議場的時候，我就用武力阻絕你，我用暴力讓你\n根本不能進來，讓你的聲音連進來都沒辦法進來，甚至讓你連簽到都不能簽到，我覺得主席你\n可以去思考這一件事啦！","quality":0.132},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T16:08:47.131000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T16:08:56.101000+08:00","text":"你光看那個議事錄，我們大家都到了立法院，這麼多內政委員會的同仁到了立法院，結果他\n們在議事錄是沒有來開會的、是缺席的，我覺得大家一樣都是內政委員會的委員，你這樣對立\n法院同事有必要嗎？","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T16:09:06.322000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T16:09:19.208000+08:00","text":"我還是要回到我一開始講的，如果國民黨認為選罷法透過加嚴的程序來阻\n絕未來不要有這麼多罷免狀況的發生，那你們也達成一半了啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T16:09:20.408000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T16:09:29.012000+08:00","text":"而且這個一半也不能說一半，\n它已經讓未來在連署上有很高的難度，基本上在連署這塊你們就可以看出已經很難了，連署幾\n乎沒辦法成功了啦！","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T16:09:35.803000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T16:09:39.165000+08:00","text":"那如果這樣的話，你們幹嘛還要急著在現在？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T16:09:40.826000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T16:09:55.693000+08:00","text":"你現在退回委員會，未來在\n審查頂多程序再慢一點，退回委員會完，審查過了再回到二、三讀，你們還是可以達到最後要\n三讀的目的啊！","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T16:09:57.154000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T16:09:57.534000+08:00","text":"結果你不是啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T16:09:57.694000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T16:10:09.887000+08:00","text":"主席，你今天用這樣過水式的協商，然後你要把這件事到了院長協商後就要二、三讀了，我\n跟你講，你這個委員會的瑕疵長在那裡，你也是逼得我們未來在院會處理的時候要再抗爭一次\n，因為你們這個瑕疵就長在這裡，我們怎麼可能去背書你這個瑕疵啊？","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T16:10:09.907000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T16:10:09.907000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T16:10:10.007000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T16:10:10.968000+08:00","text":"大家都沒辦法\n進來開會，你要我們在二、三讀的時候去背書這個瑕疵嗎？","quality":0.828},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T16:10:29.711000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T16:10:44.802000+08:00","text":"所以我覺得主席你可以發揮你的高\n度，12 月 16 日也許你沒有期待我們的人會被阻絕在外面，你覺得是我們比較慢進來，但是你應\n該注意到官員也沒進來啊！","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T16:10:44.902000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T16:10:45.423000+08:00","text":"確實它的問題都長在那裡嘛！","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T16:10:45.423000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:10:48.078444+08:00","text":"那你事後透過媒體看，你也看到了我\n們的人真的是被國民黨的立委阻絕在外面啊！","quality":0.029},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T16:10:48.078444+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:10:50.733889+08:00","text":"我們是被物理阻絕欸！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T16:10:50.733889+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:10:53.389333+08:00","text":"好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T16:10:53.389333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:10:56.044778+08:00","text":"主席，我覺得我們不要用今天的協商來過水，我們還是嚴肅地來討論 12 月 16 日那一天所發\n生的事，然後我們解決那一天的程序瑕疵，我們補正那一天的程序瑕疵，也許會讓未來你們期\n待的選罷法修法走得更順一點，主席，再思考一下。","quality":0.054},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T16:10:56.044778+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:10:58.700222+08:00","text":"過水是你講的，我們就照程序走，你知道行政院……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T16:10:58.700222+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:11:01.355667+08:00","text":"過水是我講的？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T16:11:01.355667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:11:04.011111+08:00","text":"你現在就是在過水，什麼我講的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T16:11:04.011111+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:11:06.666556+08:00","text":"主席，你根本是在「烏白花」。","quality":0.1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T16:11:06.666556+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:11:09.322000+08:00","text":"所有委員都在，就是民進黨的委員跟行政官員不在，所以我就跟你講，第 11 屆怪事特別多\n。","quality":0.057},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T16:11:09.322000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T16:11:10.383000+08:00","text":"229\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0.467},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T16:11:10.383000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:11:13.094816+08:00","text":"沒有哦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T16:11:13.094816+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:11:15.806633+08:00","text":"不要講什麼第 11 屆怪事特別多……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T16:11:15.806633+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:11:18.518449+08:00","text":"行政官員可以不在，來了再離開，所以……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T16:11:18.518449+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:11:21.230265+08:00","text":"主席，就是你主持的那一次才是真的怪事啦！","quality":0.056},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T16:11:21.230265+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:11:23.942082+08:00","text":"不要裝傻啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2024-12-26T16:11:23.942082+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:11:26.653898+08:00","text":"什麼怪事特別多！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T16:11:26.653898+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:11:29.365714+08:00","text":"我們沒辦法進來！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T16:11:29.365714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:11:32.077531+08:00","text":"我們沒辦法進來！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T16:11:32.077531+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:11:34.789347+08:00","text":"這個問題你都不面對！","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T16:11:34.789347+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:11:37.501163+08:00","text":"主席，過去 3 次民進黨的委員占領主席臺的時候，那時候就沒有暴力、就沒有武力嗎\n？","quality":0.061},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T16:11:37.501163+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:11:40.212980+08:00","text":"我剛才就說過，過去蔣萬安……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T16:11:40.212980+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:11:42.924796+08:00","text":"暴力的是陳玉珍！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T16:11:42.924796+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:11:45.636612+08:00","text":"暴力的是陳玉珍！","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T16:11:45.636612+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:11:48.348429+08:00","text":"民進黨說的就算數，那我們就不算……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T16:11:48.348429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:11:51.060245+08:00","text":"你們過去蔣萬安在占主席臺的時候，也是這樣占主席臺啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T16:11:51.060245+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:11:53.772061+08:00","text":"你們全副武裝，每個人穿護具打人、揍人，邱鎮軍揍人，陳玉珍踹人，踹到人家身體受\n傷！","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T16:11:53.772061+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:11:56.483878+08:00","text":"三次由民進黨的委員占領主席臺，讓我們沒有辦法好好地討論、不能好好地討論，為\n什麼？","quality":0.028},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T16:11:56.483878+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:11:59.195694+08:00","text":"至少讓你們進來簽到啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T16:11:59.195694+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:12:01.907510+08:00","text":"暴力的是誰啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T16:12:01.907510+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:12:04.619327+08:00","text":"暴力的是誰啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T16:12:04.619327+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:12:07.331143+08:00","text":"不是，現在你們說要討論就討論，那我們說要討論就不是討論，所以我覺得這樣子說\n真的是有失公允啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T16:12:07.331143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:12:10.042959+08:00","text":"行政官員自己想走就走，所有立法院的議事人員都還在，主席也還在……","quality":0.107},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T16:12:10.042959+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:12:12.754776+08:00","text":"我們也希望能夠好好地討論，那也走到這一步了……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T16:12:12.754776+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:12:15.466592+08:00","text":"只有國民黨可以進來的會議室，算什麼開會？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T16:12:15.466592+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:12:18.178408+08:00","text":"算什麼開會？","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T16:12:18.178408+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:12:20.890224+08:00","text":"也討論了一段時間了，那我想這段時間，今天既然是朝野協商嘛！","quality":0.077},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2024-12-26T16:12:20.890224+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:12:23.602041+08:00","text":"那個時候……","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T16:12:23.602041+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:12:26.313857+08:00","text":"主席，如果大家沒有共識，那就保留送協商好嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T16:12:26.313857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:12:29.025673+08:00","text":"既然大家沒有共識嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T16:12:29.025673+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:12:31.737490+08:00","text":"所以你就是要過水就對了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T16:12:31.737490+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:12:34.449306+08:00","text":"退回委員會啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T16:12:34.449306+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:12:37.161122+08:00","text":"退回委員會！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T16:12:37.161122+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:12:39.872939+08:00","text":"主席，你要不要處理 12 月 16 日？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T16:12:39.872939+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:12:42.584755+08:00","text":"不要當歷史罪人啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T16:12:42.584755+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:12:45.296571+08:00","text":"230\n立法院公報 第 114 卷 第 12 期 黨團協商紀錄","quality":0.267},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T16:12:45.296571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:12:48.008388+08:00","text":"這個已經排案算是第 6 次還是第 7 次……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T16:12:48.008388+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:12:50.720204+08:00","text":"召委不要當歷史罪人！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T16:12:50.720204+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:12:53.432020+08:00","text":"你要不要處理 12 月 16 日？","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T16:12:53.432020+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:12:56.143837+08:00","text":"不管要開什麼，其實都已經開過了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T16:12:56.143837+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:12:58.855653+08:00","text":"因為現在的協商少了一個政黨啊！有啊！","quality":0.188},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T16:12:58.855653+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:13:01.567469+08:00","text":"剛剛在啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T16:13:01.567469+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:13:04.279286+08:00","text":"現在不在啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T16:13:04.279286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:13:06.991102+08:00","text":"既然這樣的話，那就保留送協商啊！","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T16:13:06.991102+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:13:09.702918+08:00","text":"他去聲援柯 P了啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T16:13:09.702918+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:13:12.414735+08:00","text":"既然沒有共識，沒有共識就保留送協商嘛！","quality":0.118},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T16:13:12.414735+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:13:15.126551+08:00","text":"你不處理 12 月 16 日，基本上你現在就是在過水啦！","quality":0.056},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T16:13:15.126551+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:13:17.838367+08:00","text":"你如果要過水，我們不必陪你，\n我們要走了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-12-26T16:13:17.838367+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:13:20.550184+08:00","text":"那就保留送協商，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T16:13:20.550184+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:13:23.262000+08:00","text":"不同意啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2024-12-26T16:13:23.262000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-26T16:13:23.282000+08:00","text":"退回委員會啦！","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2024-12-26T16:13:23.782000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:13:26.067714+08:00","text":"你一點擔當都沒有！","quality":0.125},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T16:13:26.367714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:13:29.510571+08:00","text":"今天我們的會議到此，散會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-26T16:13:29.810571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-26T16:13:30.953429+08:00","text":"散會（16 時 13 分）","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}