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還是跟委員報告就是說譬如說以艦載機來講我們目前以艦載機來講的話它會是一個比較所以你有沒有任何一個可以明確跟我講的一個數字到底進程機的經費"},{"start":561.361,"end":572.978,"text":"大概一台是多少錢這麼基礎的問題現在都不能回答明天要如何通過這筆預算我們不能夠內定某一個款我沒有款項我只說大概的經費是多少錢如果沒有這樣你怎麼編列預算"},{"start":574.281,"end":595.011,"text":"我們事後來辦公室跟委員說明好嗎每一個項目其實我們會有細項來跟委員說明我想我不公開在這裡說明主委我要特別跟你講的海巡的400多架的這個無人機啊那我再請教主委你知道你們現在海巡啊你們現在總共有幾台無人機嗎"},{"start":596.463,"end":621.426,"text":"我們現在18架你們現在只有18架無人機你們未來是要採購40億高端的無人機未來你們要如何去使用這批無人機不會的 我們的人力現在都已經開始在培訓然後陸陸續續也都已經不斷的在考證了 在考照了所以跟委員報告就是說 以這400架的400架無人機 我想要請教主委"},{"start":623.307,"end":650.554,"text":"40亿的400架无人机要400亿的经费没有400架40亿这个资料有没有错误你现在能回答我本席的是说包含的是上面的丑仔科仪那些仪器那你可不可以回答我一台最贵的无人机你们买多少钱你们大概是不是用军规的无人机未来如果你们在执行上你们真的是要用类军规的无人机很少数其中有少数是的"},{"start":651.733,"end":674.008,"text":"我記得有請同仁來跟委員主委我要再次強調明天這筆預算就要通過了我們其中有一部分確實是跟國防部一起共同採購其中有一部分確實是那是比較高功能但是我們基本上還是在做徵收我的意思是說我再給主委一個數字好不好如果進城的無人機"},{"start":675.009,"end":690.589,"text":"一台啊進程不會進來無人機假如一台外面呢假設的價格是十萬塊啦你這個這些喔你剛剛講的這些這些你說的這些比較高端的無人機一台要將近就像你講要上億的經費啊那海巡署為什麼要購買這麼多"},{"start":692.236,"end":713.267,"text":"上亿的无人机就像你刚刚讲的大实话我们其实海巡他在救难的时候尤其是他在救生救难的时候用军用的无人机去救难我们的舰队我们的舰队要出去救生救难的时候那我们的无人机要赶快先飞上去"},{"start":713.727,"end":731.446,"text":"在我们未抵达灾害现场的时候无人机侦搜的画面就会回到我们舰艇上面甚至于是我们的指挥中心就了解现场的状况委员这样的一个海空一体的侦搜跟救生救难是非常重要的"},{"start":731.906,"end":746.775,"text":"所以我們在欠債的部分我們會買非常重要的無人機因為我今天跟主委報告我今天問你的問題你大概沒有一個可以回答的都是很多很空泛的這個內容明天就要通過這樣子的40億採購無人機的特別預算"},{"start":750.558,"end":762.332,"text":"我們會給委員很具體的說明那確實如同我剛剛所說請問主委你到底清不清楚你們買的無人機的這些內容跟資訊"},{"start":766.056,"end":783.629,"text":"我當然了解那有沒有人要幫你回答我請署長來回答好謝謝那基本上我們當然了解那以建載的來講的話它是非常高規格的一種無人機那它是軍事用的嗎不是我們會用來做的那你們剛剛不是說跟國防部配合"},{"start":784.329,"end":810.858,"text":"要一起共同采买的那跟国防部不是买军事的模组化的无人机它上面的功能是借着模组化的一个调配我们的筹载会非常的不一样所以它的功能就非常不一样主委这些都是人民的纳税钱要采买什么东西我觉得都是合理我们都会支持可是就是说你应该要让人民有知的权利而且立法委员在审查预算的时候应该要有明确的资讯"},{"start":811.798,"end":835.351,"text":"明天就要通過這筆預算因為我昨天看到你啊在這個我們的協商的時候你是很認真在守護你們的海巡的預算我們是強烈支持可是你們不能不了解自己的預算裡面到底是含著什麼東西啊絕對不會不了解那還有沒有人可以再詳細的回答我剛剛有問的任何問題我甚至於都已經舉例了畸形譬如說"},{"start":835.831,"end":863.556,"text":"如果國防部那一台機型大概的金額是多少錢而我們買的也是VBAT的話那我們的VBAT跟國防部的VBAT它模組化的結果我們的功能絕對會不一樣所以加起來金額是你們有買幾台上億的無人機有接近億元的無人機大概會是在這當中譬如說我們的艦載有買幾台大概知道嗎艦載的部分就會比較是高功能的無人機"},{"start":864.776,"end":881.255,"text":"是在這個部分我們就會比較是高功能的無人機但是除了無人機的本體以外那我想請教一下有上億的無人機算是軍用等級的嗎在我們這裡的時候我們就不會是用來跟作戰相關"},{"start":882.156,"end":901.28,"text":"好所以你们有这个军用类似无人机来去救灾然后不会用来做军事的功能我们不会是一个军事的功能在这里的无人机都没有军事的功能在上面好那需要这个组委后续的时候再把你刚刚讲的那些资料再提供一份报告给本席好的谢谢好谢谢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":237,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（9時35分）謝謝主席。各位委員、各位官員，大家早。我是不是先請行政院主計處李專委？"],["主席：請李專委。"],["張委員智倫：專委好。今天請教有關警察、消防、海巡、移民及空勤總隊人員危勞津貼及退休權益之保障。基本上大家都知道，立法院在今年（114年）1月7日三讀通過警察人事條例修正案，將這些人員的退休所替代率調高到50%，總統亦於4月25日公布修正條文。我想請教，依照預算編制原則與程序，什麼時候應該編列相關預算？"],["李專門委員培源：依照相關規定，大概在7月底之前行政院內部會召開預算審議會議，8月中下旬提報行政院會議通過後，於8月底之前送到大院審議。"],["張委員智倫：意思就是4、5月起就開始編列了，才有辦法在7、8月送行政院核定，是嗎？"],["李專門委員培源：對，各機關提報概算大概是在6月左右。"],["張委員智倫：6月左右？我請教一下，現在所看到115年度的預算並沒有編這筆，照你的說法，當時是有編這筆預算，可是不知道為什麼這筆預算在送到立法院來的時候不見了？"],["李專門委員培源：我們係依照各機關提報的需求編列，不過這筆預算……"],["張委員智倫：所以當時各機關都有編列預算？一開始時，各機關都有編列預算嗎？"],["李專門委員培源：這部分當時各機關應該是沒有提報。"],["張委員智倫：沒有提報預算？但是你剛剛講了，5、6月就要編列預算，7月、8月要送到行政院，所以當時到底有沒有編列預算？"],["李專門委員培源：我的意思是，當時各機關在概算的時候沒有納入這部分，但他們有跟行政院報告，人事條例這部分可能有些疑義待處理。"],["張委員智倫：什麼意思？依照主計總處的規定是不是應該要編列預算？也就是你剛剛提的，應該要編列預算，為什麼後來各部會的主計處決定不編列預算？"],["李專門委員培源：跟委員報告，我們一般在作業上會先核定一個概算額度……"],["張委員智倫：所以當時都已經核定出概算額度了？"],["李專門委員培源：因為這筆預算是比較後期的，所以當時在核定時還沒有考慮到這部分。"],["張委員智倫：好，有請內政部部長。部長，您剛剛聽完主計同仁所提出來的看法與其所表達的意見，您認為是不是當時各部會都有編列預算，也有送到行政院，但為什麼後來行政院並沒有把這筆預算加到115年度的預算裡，是不是可以請部長說明一下？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，這是由行政院回復的部分，我沒有辦法代行政院回復。"],["張委員智倫：你看到自己部內沒有編列預算……"],["劉部長世芳：我們現在所瞭解的，就是行政院聲請憲法法庭釋憲。"],["張委員智倫：部長，我要跟你報告的點就是，依照這次立法院所通過的整體行政程序來講……"],["劉部長世芳：也未必是由內政部編列，有可能是銓敘部。"],["張委員智倫：應該要編列預算，而且是編在115年的預算裡。我要說的是，行政程序對我們來講，尤其是人民，大家都要依照行政程序來編列預算、來做事情。如果沒有編列預算，僅因為行政院長自己個人的意思而不編列，我想各部會應該要跟行政院長講，這是不應該做的事情！是不是請部長對於這次沒有編列預算表達您的看法？您作為內政部長，您的看法是什麼？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們還是一樣。行政院是整體的，院長站在行政院的高度認為這件事情需要尋求釋憲，所以我們就按照院長的指示來辦理。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝部長。本席在這邊還是要嚴正強調，我們是五權分立國家，立法院要求編列預算，剛剛主計總處也特別提到，依照行政規定應該要編列這個預算，可是我們在115年度的預算裡並沒有看到這樣的預算！所以我們希望……當然內政部部長也無可奈何，大家都聽行政院長一個人的看法。","接下來請海委會管碧玲管主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員好。"],["張委員智倫：管主委好。昨天我看到你在政黨協商時，針對海委會預算強力守護。基本上，對所有警消、海巡的預算我們都是支持的。不過針對海巡署的特別預算，我有提案凍結海巡10%預算，也就是針對採買無人機這一項我本來是要凍結10%，但因為我本身非常支持海巡的預算，所以我後來簽了主決議，希望海巡可以好好利用這筆預算。"],["管主任委員碧玲：非常謝謝委員。"],["張委員智倫：今天你們早上應該提供我相關的說明，可是我還是沒有看到。有關海巡署打算花40億採買無人機一事，我算了一下，總共要採買的無人機數量是451架，這個數字對嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["張委員智倫：如果數字對的話，40億採買451架無人機，包含近程機412架、中程機18架以及遠程機21架。請問一下你們近程機一臺的價格是多少錢？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，我們還必須經過訪商程序來處理。近程機是比較小型的無人機，當然會是經費規模上最小的一個，至於艦載的部分，就是屬於非常重度功能的無人機設計。另外……"],["張委員智倫：為什麼我對這筆預算相當有意見？我本身是學會計的，這412架無人機，加上剛剛講的近程、中程跟遠程，其實40億的經費除以451架無人機，一臺的經費……"],["管主任委員碧玲：因為要酬載，而酬載非常得貴！上面酬載的儀器……"],["張委員智倫：一臺的經費高達八百多萬！一臺無人機的經費高達八百多萬！"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，有一些無人機一臺可能就近1億。基本上，這筆經費除無人機本體經費外，因為要做偵蒐任務，所以無人機整體經費是包含酬載的。"],["張委員智倫：主委，你的意思是這次的經費有買到上億的無人機？"],["管主任委員碧玲：沒有！我的意思是說……"],["張委員智倫：你最貴的無人機經費是買多少錢的？"],["管主任委員碧玲：各種型的無人機價位差距非常、非常巨大，不過其中很重要的部分是酬載，譬如我們要有夜視功能的酬載在上面的話，那個就非常貴。所以基本上，這筆預算不是只有無人機本體的預算在上面。很抱歉，因為……"],["張委員智倫：主委，這筆預算明天就要通過了，你現在卻連最基本的近程無人機一臺多少錢，你都沒辦法回答！遠程最貴的也無法回答，剛剛還回答我要採買將近1億元的！我剛剛幫你算過了，我旁邊有對照表給你參考。最近國防部軍備局採買了5萬臺無人機總共花了500億，粗略來算，一臺平均價格是100萬。可是以你現在的算法，一臺會將近1,000萬。"],["管主任委員碧玲：國防部買的也有將近上億的。"],["張委員智倫：第二個，國防部採買的都是軍事用無人機，難道海巡要採買的也是軍事用無人機？現在你們的整體單價比軍事用無人機高！"],["管主任委員碧玲：不會，還是跟委員報告，目前以艦載機來講，它會是一個比較高功能的……"],["張委員智倫：你可不可以跟我講一個明確的數字？到底近程機的經費一臺大概是多少錢？如果連這麼基礎的問題現在都不能回答，請問明天要如何通過這筆預算？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們不能內定某一個款……"],["張委員智倫：我沒有說款，我問大概經費是多少錢？如果沒有的話你怎麼編列預算？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們事後到辦公室跟委員說明，好嗎？每一個項目我們都會有細項來跟委員說明，我想我不公開在這裡說明……"],["張委員智倫：主委，我要跟你講，海巡的四百多架無人機……"],["管主任委員碧玲：因為我不會去內定某一個款式是……"],["張委員智倫：那我再請教主委，你知道現在海巡總共有幾臺無人機嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們現在有18架……"],["張委員智倫：你們現在只有18架無人機，未來要採購40億的高端無人機，未來你們要如何使用這批無人機？所以……"],["管主任委員碧玲：不會的，我們的人力現在都已經開始在培訓，陸陸續續也都已經不斷在考證、考照，所以跟委員報告，以這400架的……"],["張委員智倫：400架無人機，我想請教主委……"],["管主任委員碧玲：最微型的、最輕型的無人機……"],["張委員智倫：400架無人機要400億的經費……"],["管主任委員碧玲：沒有、沒有，400架40億，包含……"],["張委員智倫：這個資料有沒有錯誤？你底下的人回答本席的是……"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，那是包含上面的酬載科儀，那些儀器……"],["張委員智倫：那你可不可以回答我，一臺最貴的無人機你們買多少錢？你們是不是用軍規的無人機？未來在執行上如果你們真的要用類軍規的無人機……"],["管主任委員碧玲：很少數，其中只有少數是的。我記得有請同仁跟委員說明……"],["張委員智倫：主委，我要再次強調，明天這筆預算就要通過了……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們其中有一部分確實是跟國防部一起共同採購，其中有一部分確實是，那是比較高功能的，但是基本上我們還是在做偵蒐……"],["張委員智倫：我再給主委一個數字，好不好？假設外面的近程無人機價格是10萬元，而你剛剛講的這些是比較高端的無人機，一臺將近要上億經費，請問海巡署為什麼要購買這麼多上億的無人機？你剛剛已經講了大實話……"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，海巡在救難的時候，尤其是在救生、救難的時候……"],["張委員智倫：用軍用的無人機去救難？"],["管主任委員碧玲：或者是在做情監偵的偵蒐時、我們的艦隊要出去救生、救難時，我們的無人機要趕快先飛上去，在人員未抵達災害現場的時候，無人機偵蒐的畫面就會回到我們的艦艇上面、甚至是指揮中心，這樣就可以馬上了解現場狀況。委員，這樣海空一體的偵蒐跟救生、救難是非常重要的，所以我們在艦載的部分會買非常重要規格的無人機。"],["張委員智倫：我沒有說……救生、救難是非常重要，可是你們把正確、明確……主委，我今天問你的問題，你大概沒有一個可以回答，很多都是空泛的內容，明天就要通過這40億採購無人機的特別預算，所以……"],["管主任委員碧玲：不會空泛，我們會把……跟委員報告，我們會給委員很具體的說明，確實如同我剛剛說的，我們目前……"],["張委員智倫：請問主委，你到底清不清楚你們買的無人機的內容跟資訊？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我當然了解，如果……"],["張委員智倫：有沒有人要幫你回答？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我請署長來回答，基本上，我們當然了解，以艦載來講，它是非常高規格的無人機，我們海巡……"],["張委員智倫：它是軍事用的嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：不是，我們會用來做海事偵蒐……"],["張委員智倫：你剛剛不是說跟國防部配合要共同採買，那跟國防部也不是買軍事的……"],["管主任委員碧玲：那是模組化的無人機，它上面的功能是藉著模組化的調配，我們的酬載非常不一樣，功能也就非常不一樣，譬如國防部是買V-BAT，那麼國防部的V-BAT跟我們的V-BAT就會非常的不一樣。"],["張委員智倫：沒有，主委，這些都是人民的納稅錢，要採買什麼東西，合理的我們都會支持，可是你應該要讓人民有知的權利，而且立法委員在審查預算的時候應該要有明確的資訊，明天就要通過這筆預算，而我昨天在協商的時候看到你很認真在守護你們海巡的預算……"],["管主任委員碧玲：因為這些預算非常的珍貴。"],["張委員智倫：我們是強烈支持，可是你也不能不了解自己的預算到底包含了什麼東西……"],["管主任委員碧玲：不會不了解，委員，絕對不會不了解，我剛剛其實已經都有舉例……"],["張委員智倫：那還有沒有人可以再詳細的回答我剛剛問的任何問題？"],["管主任委員碧玲：甚至都已經舉例了機型，譬如，如果國防部……"],["張委員智倫：那請問，那一臺機型大概金額是多少？"],["管主任委員碧玲：買的是V-BAT，而我們買的也是V-BAT的話，那我們的V-BAT跟國防部的V-BAT模組化的結果，功能絕對會不一樣……"],["張委員智倫：所以將來的金額，你們要買幾臺上億的無人機？"],["管主任委員碧玲：有接近億元的無人機，大概會是在這當中……譬如說我們的艦載……"],["張委員智倫：有買幾臺，大概知道嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：艦載的部分會是比較高功能的無人機，這個部分會是比較高功能的無人機，但除了無人機的本體以外，所有無人機都需要酬載……"],["張委員智倫：那我想請教，上億的無人機算是軍用等級的嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：在我們這邊不會用來跟作戰相關，無人機現在的設計都模組化了……"],["張委員智倫：好，所以你們有類似軍用的無人機來救災，而不會用來做軍事功能使用？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是救災跟偵蒐，我們不會有軍事上的功能，在這裡的無人機，都沒有軍事功能這一項。"],["張委員智倫：好，希望主委後續再把你剛剛講的那些資料提供一份報告給本席，好嗎？謝謝。"],["管主任委員碧玲：好的，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝張智倫委員。","接下來請黃捷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-5","speakers":["黃建賓","牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","黃捷","許宇甄","王美惠","張宏陸","李柏毅","麥玉珍","林德福","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","賴惠員","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","盧縣一","黃國昌","陳冠廷","邱志偉","高金素梅","林楚茵","王鴻薇","丁學忠","吳宗憲"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-16"],"gazette_id":"1148501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長、海洋委員會主任委員、內政部警政署署長、內政部消防署署長就「警察、消\n防、海巡、移民及空中勤務總隊人員危勞津貼及退休權益之保障」進行專題報告並備質詢，另請\n行政院人事行政總處、行政院主計總處、銓敘部派員列席備詢","agenda_id":"1148501_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}