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剛剛李昆哲委員他跟我一樣都很重視所以過去在交通委員會對於親子友善特別是國家的重大交通建設你看我們的機場為什麼會有一個低矮的"},{"start":80.106,"end":106.318,"text":"小便斗我們的所有交通部 轄下 觀光區觀光景點 交通設施都有一個落地型的小便斗那個都是親子友善的設計為什麼新的空間必須洗手台都要往下降那個就是方便孩子洗手所以這個都是我認為都是進步國家的一個表現所以寧靜車廂在我一開始的認知裡面我根本不認為"},{"start":107.842,"end":116.721,"text":"指的董事長你是要針對那個孩子吵鬧的部分著手從來沒有所以在執法上面就是我們的員工在進行相關的勸導上面"},{"start":118.855,"end":147.168,"text":"的確可能進行了有關譬如說孩子可能比較吵鬧所以會有親子團體去抱怨好像有這樣的一個現象所以我是覺得這個歸根究底第一個如同剛剛去提到應該去強化跟社會的對話跟溝通特別在親子團體部分第二個高鐵在員工教育訓練上面這個親子其實是小朋友的問題為什麼我們講這個是因為小朋友他就是一個"},{"start":148.308,"end":162.099,"text":"沒有辦法像大人一樣我們在行為上面可以得到一個充分的控制所以我們為什麼要做友善在台鐵上面我們讓孩子就有一個可以很吵鬧的車廂"},{"start":163.66,"end":190.911,"text":"那台鐵的時間又長所以他更需要對孩子的安撫跟照顧有一個妥適的空間那當然高鐵相對短但是高鐵其實沒有任何要跟社會大眾說明沒有任何要對孩子孩子是如果能夠控制那爸爸媽媽就可以控制了那所以除了這個之外我認為教育訓練應該進一層進一層雖然不能改變車廂但我們可以改變訓練的方法"},{"start":191.786,"end":218.883,"text":"譬如說我常常講說為什麼大家喜歡有一些飯店或者國家大家認為親子旅遊很合適我隨便舉一個例子我曾經在泰國的一個飯店吃早餐的時候那是一個很高級的餐廳早餐所以呢我的孩子兩個孩子當時很小所以很吵那我們不斷的安撫但他就是會叫嘛一歲的小孩子那"},{"start":220.696,"end":236.351,"text":"飯店的服務人員他走過來不是叫我說可不可以讓孩子閉嘴而是他走過來告訴我說我可以帶著你的孩子在你視線看得到範圍這個窗戶的外面我可以陪他在那邊玩一下子帶他進來"},{"start":239.067,"end":256.169,"text":"這個飯店從此被我列為全世界最友善親子的飯店所以台鐵公司一樣我的意思是說我們可以在教育訓練過程裡面讓我們的高鐵公司你可以設計譬如說簡單的零食譬如說像現在乖乖不是在到處跟人家聯名嗎"},{"start":257.131,"end":277.37,"text":"任何的產品跟高鐵公司聯名給一個小孩子一個小零食或者給孩子一個小玩具或許可以讓孩子他就得到一定的安撫而會讓他變得相對安靜很多那其實這個成本很低但他卻是高鐵公司社會對親子友善親子最重要的一個"},{"start":278.433,"end":299.012,"text":"一個象徵或者做法所以其實這是內部的我們的訓練跟內部怎麼管理的問題所以我希望董事長可以參考看看就是說我們不只跟社會大眾對話說台鐵是友善親子我們更具體在落實在管理跟內部的教育訓練上面展現出高鐵對親子友善的做法"},{"start":300.473,"end":324.211,"text":"這個應該可以考慮一下我們的同仁從過去都一直都是在秉持友善親子的做法所以這個我覺得應該持續所以希望讓可以得到安靜的旅客不是因為大人的講電話或者是講話過度的喧嘩或者是甚至用3C產品開得很大聲我想這個才是寧靜車廂的意義沒有錯是謝謝委員好那另外就是說"},{"start":326.826,"end":349.719,"text":"這個下一批因為新舊的車廂要改變很困難是但新的車廂現在已經在打造當中對打造當中除了這個呃呃剛剛提到這零箱之後我覺得還有一個對旅客來講也很在意的事情就是我們這個行李放置是比如說大型的嬰兒嬰兒推車是其實那個上去車廂很"},{"start":352.546,"end":377.918,"text":"我們現行的設計裡面能夠放置行李跟放置大型行李跟嬰兒折疊車的地方並不多那新的車廂有沒有可能可以在這方面去做一些改變或調整或增加空間各位委員報告我想全世界的高速鐵路都面臨到這個行李是在這個非常急速的成長的比例那高鐵同樣也遇到這個問題"},{"start":378.598,"end":406.646,"text":"那我們在新的列車上大概採取的模式是這樣首先第一個我們每一個車廂所配置的本來的兩座行李空間會改成一單一雙一雙的意思就是說他有雙層那可以增加行李的容量那一單就是表示說他有一些比較高大的行李你還是不能讓他不放嘛這是其一第二個就是新的車子的這個行李架也就是座位上方的行李架他會比較寬敞以至於我們接下來應該會希望凡是24吋以"},{"start":408.046,"end":426.954,"text":"以下的行李箱都要放在座位上面的行李架這樣子就要把空間讓出來在行李座的部分可以放比如說委員剛剛講的這個嬰兒車等等所以我們是在積極準備這件事情也就是說我覺得現行的設計裡面就是董事長其實你也都觀察到現行的設計裡面其實空間沒有立體化啦是所以很可惜"},{"start":427.654,"end":447.856,"text":"那像有一些外面就車廂跟車廂中間我看有一些空間我不知道他要做什麼用的就是反正有一個像電話亭的東西我看最後只要乘客很多行李很多的時候那裡也都放行李那個可能都過去在設計可能不合使用的那現在在未來的設計裡面從"},{"start":450.058,"end":463.922,"text":"車廂內部到車廂外部就車廂跟車廂連結處那些剩餘的空間其實應該可以都好好來考慮啦是我們事實上有在準備是好那謝謝董事長那我請那個主委董事長請請坐好主委其實很簡單啦齁這個"},{"start":476.079,"end":504.111,"text":"飛機上面對於這個這個我們這個行動電池的問題我們其實都長期以來他已經是不可以放到車行李裡面他必須要隨身攜帶那高鐵發生過這個電池爆炸燃燒嘛這我從媒體上面看到的那我想請問主委如果電池因為我看到有四個人受傷主委你知道這四個人是怎麼受傷的嗎"},{"start":506.73,"end":534.519,"text":"不瞭解 主委你應該 院會應該去管理一下這個行動電源其實是大家生活當中幾乎出門必備那我問主委因為我不瞭解他這四個人怎麼受傷因為他其實不是放在 他應該是放在隨身的行李當中那隨身行李當中我從這個照片看到 主委我請問一下地上那一根滅火器可不可以 如果電池燃燒了"},{"start":536.308,"end":554.685,"text":"那一個滅火器就是放在高鐵車廂裡面那個滅火器可不可以把行動電源燃燒可不可以用這個滅火器撲滅這個可能要研究這個還不知道這個就是專業的對主委這是專業問題但本席認為這個對運安是很重要的也就是說"},{"start":563.22,"end":586.81,"text":"依照本席粗淺的知識看起來那個滅火器應該是滅不了電池的火我不知道啦我不是很確定但依照我的常識應該是滅不了就像那個為什麼我說因為電動車著火滅火器是不行的他好像是要覆蓋還是怎麼樣anyway所以"},{"start":588.601,"end":614.024,"text":"主委我相信國人所有的乘客消費者對於如果在他的臨座發生了電池燃燒他怎麼處置恐怕主委這恐怕沒有現場恐怕會一團亂恐怕沒有人知道避免釀成更大的災害這個四個人受傷還要依公共危險罪偵辦"},{"start":615.455,"end":636.846,"text":"那到底行動電源這個東西如果發生了燃燒在現場因為過去火災如果有火災因為滅火器大家知道拿著就用滅火器來處理這個叫消防演練那電池發生了爆炸或自燃那到底在密閉的車廂空間裡面該如何處置"},{"start":639.527,"end":654.312,"text":"這個 運安會應該有一些指引啦讓高鐵公司應該來演練嘛從員工的教育訓練一直到乘客如何自處他應該要有一些指引主委這個可以去做一點這個處理嗎"},{"start":656.929,"end":672.624,"text":"我們前一陣子有會診航空鐵道旅客攜帶使用行動電源的安全管理的解駭的資訊 我們有蒐集我們有發言給交通部 民航局 鐵道局還有相關航空鐵道的業者我所知道的 像高鐵車攜帶"},{"start":674.065,"end":702.142,"text":"就有规定因为我们这个资讯给他说你这个行动电人要行动就跟做会计一样要放在手续前面你要戴在身上这也是一个措施这没问题那我现在问你就是说他就戴在身上这个案例也是戴在身上那我的意思是说你看他还导致四个人受伤这四个人受伤的过程是什么是爆炸的同时就喷到四个人所以四个人受伤还是烧起来了大家不知道怎么处理"},{"start":703.069,"end":707.636,"text":"因為這樣去受傷就面對這個這一個案例啊"},{"start":708.669,"end":736.671,"text":"因為他會應該適度的去了解嘛那了解完之後我們才知道說為什麼他會受傷那如果未來再發生他帶在電池的確是帶在自己隨身的行李但是燃燒了因為你電池不是水噴不是把電池澆水譬如說把高鐵的水拿來澆一澆就把它弄洗了不是不是把隨身的礦泉水拿來澆就可以洗高鐵上面只有滅火器可不可以拿那個滅火器來噴一噴他就洗了"},{"start":737.572,"end":755.709,"text":"这个是本席关心的因为大家都有行动电源品牌也你要源头管理这是另外一个课题就到底有没有一些非法很危险的这些劣质品如果这个是另外一个经济部另外一个议题但如果就已经发生了"},{"start":756.86,"end":772.302,"text":"因為它會可以有一些指引讓高鐵公司來遵循或者來訓練可不可以讓旅客知道我們可以去了解去蒐集資料然後譬如說高鐵它可以比照航空的高規格不是就剛剛委員講的不是一線滅火器應該有一些"},{"start":773.423,"end":796.122,"text":"航空便有包啦或者是一些比較高規格的所以要怎麼做我覺得這個因為已經案例發生嘛對對對其實它是就是運安嘛所以怎麼去處理我覺得應該有一些指引啦好不好時間已經到了我們來蒐集一些資料看看怎麼樣找對你就只要說OK我們來做就好了啦我其實因為你也不知道嘛我現在問你你也沒辦法告訴我答案嘛好不好謝謝委員好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":242,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（9時50分）謝謝主席，請高鐵公司史哲董事長。"],["主席：請史董事長。"],["史董事長哲：委員早。"],["蔡委員其昌：董事長早。看起來寧靜車廂在前一段時間有一點爭議，我也看過相關的報導，第一個，在相關的民調裡面呈現寧靜車廂是多數搭乘高鐵旅客很支持的一個政策。"],["史董事長哲：是，高達9成。"],["蔡委員其昌：但是看起來，以我的了解，應該是你們在對外的溝通宣導以及對內部員工的教育訓練上面，恐怕有一點落差。"],["史董事長哲：是，我們會繼續精進。"],["蔡委員其昌：也就是說，寧靜車廂不應該跟親子友善的目標或者概念產生扞格跟衝突。剛剛李昆澤委員跟我一樣都很重視這點，過去在交通委員會對於親子友善，特別是國家的重大交通建設，你看我們的機場為什麼會有一個低矮的小便斗，所有交通部轄下的觀光區、觀光景點、交通設施都有一個落地型的小便斗，那個都是親子友善設計，為什麼新的空間洗手臺都必須要往下降？就是方便孩子洗手，我認為這個都是進步國家的表現。所以寧靜車廂在我一開始的認知裡面，我根本不認為史哲董事長是要針對孩子吵鬧的部分著手。"],["史董事長哲：從來沒有。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以在執法上面，員工在進行相關的勸導上面，譬如說孩子可能比較吵鬧，所以會有親子團體去抱怨，好像有這樣的現象。我是覺得歸根究柢，第一個，如同剛剛提到的應該強化跟社會的對話跟溝通，特別在親子團體部分，因為高鐵在員工教育訓練上面，親子其實是小朋友的……為什麼我們講這個？是因為小朋友沒有辦法像大人一樣，我們在行為上面可以得到充分的控制，因此我們為什麼要做友善空間？在臺鐵上面，我們讓孩子就有一個可以吵鬧的車廂，臺鐵的時間又長，所以對孩子的安撫跟照顧更需要有一個妥適的空間。當然高鐵相對短，但是高鐵要跟社會大眾說明，沒有任何要對孩子……如果孩子能夠控制，那爸爸媽媽就可以控制了，除了這個之外，我認為教育訓練應該更進一層，雖然不能改變車廂，但我們可以改變訓練的方法。","譬如說，我常常講為什麼大家認為有一些飯店或者國家很適合親子旅遊，大家很喜歡？我隨便舉一個例子，我曾經在泰國飯店吃早餐的時候，那是一個很高級的餐廳，當時我的兩個孩子很小，所以很吵，我們不斷的安撫，但他就是會叫嘛！才一歲的小孩子。飯店服務人員走過來不是叫我說可不可以讓孩子閉嘴，而是走過來告訴我：我可以帶著你的孩子在你視線看得到的範圍、窗戶的外面，我可以陪他在那邊玩一下子，再帶他進來。這個飯店從此被我列為全世界最友善親子的飯店。所以高鐵公司一樣，我的意思是你們可以在教育訓練的過程裡面，讓高鐵公司可以設計一下，譬如說簡單的零食，像現在乖乖不是到處跟人家聯名嗎？任何產品跟高鐵公司聯名，給小孩子一個小零食，或者給孩子一個小玩具，或許可以讓孩子得到一定的安撫，而會讓他變得相對安靜很多。其實這個成本很低，但它卻是高鐵公司對友善親子最重要的象徵或者作法，這是內部訓練跟內部如何管理的問題，我希望董事長可以參考看看。你們不只跟社會大眾對話表示高鐵是友善親子，更具體落實在管理跟內部的教育訓練上面，展現出高鐵對親子友善的作法，可以吧？這個應該可以考慮一下。"],["史董事長哲：是，謝謝。我們同仁從過去一直都是秉持友善親子的作法。"],["蔡委員其昌：是、是、是，所以這個我覺得應該持續。讓希望可以得到安靜的旅客，不是因為大人在講電話或者是講話過度地喧譁，甚至用3C產品開得很大聲，我想這才是寧靜車廂的意義。"],["史董事長哲：沒有錯，是，謝謝委員。"],["蔡委員其昌：另外，因為舊的車廂要改變很困難，新的車廂現在已經在……"],["史董事長哲：打造當中。"],["蔡委員其昌：對！打造當中。除了剛剛提到的寧靜車廂之外，我覺得還有一個對旅客來講也很在意的事情，就是行李放置。譬如說大型的嬰兒推車，在現行的設計裡面能夠放置大型行李跟嬰兒摺疊車的地方並不多，新的車廂有沒有可能可以在這方面去做一些改變或調整、或增加空間？"],["史董事長哲：跟委員報告，我想全世界的高速鐵路都面臨到行李是在非常急速成長的比例，高鐵同樣也遇到這個問題，我們在新的列車上大概採取的模式是這樣。首先，每一個車廂本來所配置的兩座行李空間，會改成一單一雙，一雙的意思就是說它有雙層，可以增加行李的容量；一單就是表示它有一些比較高大的行李，你還是不能讓它不放，這是其一。第二個，新車子的行李架，也就是座位上方的行李架會比較寬敞，以至於我們接下來應該會希望凡是24吋以下的行李箱，都要放在座位上面的行李架，這樣就會把空間讓出來，在行李座的部分可以放置比如說委員剛剛講的嬰兒車等等，所以我們是在積極準備這件事情。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，好。也就是說，我覺得現行的設計裡面，董事長，其實你也都觀察到現行設計的空間沒有立體化，所以很可惜，像有外面車廂跟車廂中間有一些空間，我不知道它要做什麼用的，反正有一個像電話亭的東西，我看最後只要乘客很多、行李很多的時候，那裡也都放行李。過去在設計上可能不敷使用、不合使用的，在未來的設計裡面，從車廂內部到車廂外部（即車廂跟車廂連接處）的剩餘空間，應該都可以拿來好好考慮。"],["史董事長哲：是，我們事實上有在準備。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，謝謝董事長。我請主委，董事長請坐。"],["史董事長哲：謝謝。"],["林主任委員信得：委員好。"],["蔡委員其昌：主委，其實很簡單，在飛機上對於行動電池的問題，長期以來，它已經不可以放到行李裡面，必須要隨身攜帶。高鐵發生過電池爆炸、燃燒，這是我從媒體上面看到的。我想請問主委，因為我看到有4個人受傷，主委，你知道這4個人是怎麼受傷的嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：我沒有印象。"],["蔡委員其昌：我也不了解。主委，運安會應該去管理一下，行動電源其實是大家生活當中幾乎出門必備的。我問主委，因為我不了解這4個人是怎麼受傷的，它應該是放在隨身的行李當中，我從這個照片看到，主委，我請問一下，地上那一支滅火器可不可以使用？如果電池燃燒了，放在高鐵車廂裡面的滅火器，面對行動電源燃燒時，可不可以用這個滅火器撲滅？"],["林主任委員信得：這個可能要研究……"],["蔡委員其昌：不知道？"],["林主任委員信得：不知道，因為這是專業的。"],["蔡委員其昌：對、對、對，主委，這是專業問題，但本席認為這個對運安是很重要的，也就是說依照本席粗淺的知識，看起來那一根滅火器應該是滅不了電池的火。我不知道啦！我不是很確定，但依照我的常識應該是滅不了，因為電動車著火，滅火器是不行的，它好像是要覆蓋還是怎麼樣，anyway。所以主委，我相信國人、所有乘客、消費者對於如果在他的鄰座發生了電池燃燒，他要怎麼處置？主委，現場恐怕會一團亂、恐怕沒有人知道。避免釀成更大的災害，這4個人受傷還要依公共危險罪偵辦，到底行動電源在現場如果發生了燃燒……過去有火災，如果有滅火器，大家就知道就用滅火器來處理，這個叫消防演練，因此電池發生了爆炸或自燃，到底在密閉的車廂空間裡面該如何處置？這個運安會應該要有一些指引讓高鐵公司來演練，從員工的教育訓練一直到乘客如何自處，它應該要有一些指引，主委，這個可以去做一點處理嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：我們前一陣子有彙整航空、鐵道旅客攜帶使用行動電源安全管理減害資訊，我們有蒐集，並且發函給交通部、民航局、鐵道局，還有相關航空、鐵道業者。我所知道的，像高鐵現在有規定，因為我們這個資訊給它，說行動電源要行動……就跟搭飛機一樣……"],["蔡委員其昌：對，要放在手提行李。"],["林主任委員信得：要hand carry，要帶在身上，這也是一個措施。"],["蔡委員其昌：這沒問題，我現在問你的他就是帶在身上，這個案例也是帶在身上，我的意思是說你看他還導致4個人受傷，這4個人受傷的過程是什麼？是爆炸的同時就噴到4個人，所以4個人受傷；還是燒起來了，大家不知道怎麼處理，因為這樣受傷？面對這個案例，運安會應該去適度了解，了解完之後我們才知道為什麼他會受傷，如果未來再發生……他帶電池的確是帶在自己的隨身行李，但是燃燒了，因為電池不是把電池澆水，譬如說把高鐵的水拿來澆一澆就把它弄熄了，不是！不是把隨身的礦泉水拿來澆就可以熄，高鐵上面只有滅火器，可不可以拿那根滅火器來噴一噴，它就熄了？這個是本席關心的。"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：因為大家都有行動電源，品牌也……你要源頭管理，這是另外一個課題，就是到底有沒有一些非法、很危險的劣質品，這是經濟部另外一個議題，但如果已經發生了，運安會可以有一些指引讓高鐵公司來遵循或者來訓練並讓旅客知道，可不可以？"],["林主任委員信得：我們可以去了解、蒐集資料，然後譬如說，高鐵可以比照航空的高規格，就如剛剛委員講的，不是滅火器，應該有一些航空滅火包或者是一些比較高規格的……"],["蔡委員其昌：所以要怎麼做？我覺得因為案例已經發生了……"],["林主任委員信得：對、對、對。"],["蔡委員其昌：其實它就是運安，所以怎麼去處理我覺得應該要有一些指引好不好？"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：時間已經到了。"],["林主任委員信得：我們來蒐集一些資料，看看怎麼樣……"],["蔡委員其昌：對、對、對，你就只要說「OK，我們來做」就好了。"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：因為你也不知道嘛！我現在問你，你也沒辦法告訴我答案嘛！好不好？"],["林主任委員信得：是、是、是，謝謝委員。"],["蔡委員其昌：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來再請陳素月委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":372,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-3","speakers":["洪孟楷","李昆澤","蔡其昌","陳素月","許智傑","何欣純","林俊憲","魯明哲","黃健豪","廖先翔","徐富癸","王育敏","張嘉郡","黃國昌","邱若華","邱志偉","林月琴","張雅琳","陳冠廷","林國成","游顥"],"page_start":311,"meetingDate":["2025-10-16"],"gazette_id":"1148401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148401_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請交通\n部部長陳世凱、衛生福利部次長及台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長史哲列席就「高鐵公司推動\n寧靜車廂所引發正反意見，政策上路近一個月的成效及後續宣導因應」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148401_00006"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}