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謝謝行政院公民署長的報告接下來我們請公平會委員．提名人．主任委員．李美里氏說明"},{"start":1905.573,"end":1929.256,"text":"主席、各位委員先進、各位女士、各位先生、大家早安。我能夠以公平會委員以及主任委員被提名人的身份來參加今天的聯席會,感到很榮幸,同時也感到責任重大。以下我簡單針對我個人的學經歷以及相關的背景資料來跟各位做簡單的說明以供各位參考,同時也敬請指教。"},{"start":1930.197,"end":1957.416,"text":"我現職是公平交易委員會的主任委員中興大學法律系及法律研究所畢業我在民國79年考上公務員高考86年考上律師考試因為我熱愛公務員的工作所以我沒有離開公職去當律師我曾經擔任立法委員的助理所以我深深了解為民服務的重要性跟必要性"},{"start":1959.117,"end":1976.624,"text":"我考上公職以後主要的工作是在政府部門從事法制工作以及服務業發展的工作我在經濟部智慧財產局服務了15年在當時剛好遇到我國要加入世界貿易組織"},{"start":1977.244,"end":2002.534,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":2003.089,"end":2028.469,"text":"我也在經濟部商業司擔任十幾年的工作主要是副司長跟司長在我副司長跟司長任內我所負責的公司法修正不計其數負責的條文數以百條我所做過的公司法解釋函令數以百計在這樣的一個環境下我對於整個臺灣的公司治理企業的競爭等等都有相當的了解"},{"start":2029.85,"end":2030.03,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2059.931,"end":2061.945,"text":"大餅節南台灣的"},{"start":2063.307,"end":2085.394,"text":"臺菜宴、大餅等等都是在我司長任內負責那我也推廣臺灣廚師節推動臺灣的美食品牌在緊急的時候也能夠迅速的研擬對策面對挑戰在疫情的時候我負責口罩的分發、三倍券的分發振興經濟、薪資補貼都能夠在很緊急的情況下順利完成"},{"start":2090.558,"end":2119.679,"text":"因為我瞭解我們業者的需求我也跟業者常常有互動所以被認為是非常接地氣的師長四年前我很榮幸被行政院提名擔任公平交易委員會的主任委員的工作那也謝謝立法院的支持讓我得以擔任主委那在主委的任內我沒有忘記對自己的期許在我任內我也積極的推動"},{"start":2121.3,"end":2136.657,"text":"促進臺灣公平競爭交易的環境那我主要分幾個來跟各位說明在執法方面我們嚴格執法對違法的行為都積極查處譬如說電信業者、一般混凝土業者等等"},{"start":2139.588,"end":2140.709,"text":"在對外的形象方面,我向來主張"},{"start":2162.449,"end":2166.571,"text":"在建權法制方面我們這四年來積極修正各種法令規章包括我們修正聯合檢舉獎金辦法市場界定原則不實廣告"},{"start":2187.401,"end":2194.75,"text":"關鍵字廣告、網路廣告等等的處理原則同時也修正多層次傳銷保護設置管理辦法讓這個行業能夠新力跟房幣並重"},{"start":2200.885,"end":2222.554,"text":"另外我也要求我們的施政要透明化、電子化所以我們完成各種電子設備能夠讓事業在結合的申報案件進度的查詢或是事前的諮詢都有更明確的掌握另外我們為了應應數位經濟的發展"},{"start":2225.134,"end":2249.025,"text":"也強化了執法的效能同時也為了讓各界能夠了解數位經濟下可能產生的競爭環境的挑戰所以我們在兩年前發布數位經濟競爭政策白皮書這個白皮書獲得各界的響應在國際上也得到很高的評價那同時呢我們也建立智庫、科技執法、行動辦公室暖硬體設備"},{"start":2251.047,"end":2265.647,"text":"購買相關的經濟分析模組套件從事各種研究以因應數位經濟時代的挑戰在國際事務方面我也非常重視我們積極參與各種國際合作跟交流從來不會缺席"},{"start":2266.107,"end":2289.779,"text":"同時也簽署雙邊的協定我個人甚至親自拜會美國司法部反托拉索加拿大競爭局OECD各種演講同時積極爭取舉辦國際研討會我想未來我仍然會如果能夠獲得連任我仍然會朝重視國家政策發展強化品質輔導多層次傳銷事業發展等等繼續為"},{"start":2294.602,"end":2294.642,"text":"李美"},{"start":2319.994,"end":2345.357,"text":"我希望如果能夠獲得連任臺灣的競爭環境能夠像我的名字一樣有金有美大賺美金謝謝謝謝李美女士以及是我們主委被提名的人主委我們大家都認識你大家都認識你"},{"start":2348.842,"end":2371.527,"text":"來,這個謝謝行政院公平交易委員及李鎂被提名的說明。現在我們進行詢答。詢答,委員詢答先做一下宣告。每位委員發言時間聯席會議委員10分鐘,非聯席會議委員3分鐘。今日上校審查會均於上午10點,即時發言生計。在請陳廷輝第一位委員發言之前,我來再宣告一下,為了讓會議能夠生計進行,"},{"start":2374.473,"end":2390.14,"text":"本席已經一向都希望說每位委員發言時間的公平性能夠確保以及不要影響到下一位委員的發言權益所以我很重視在每位委員諮詢時間結束之後我會立即請諮詢委員協助、配合、親自諮詢請各位委員能夠配合好現在4分鐘4minute不是10minute"},{"start":2403.155,"end":2428.213,"text":"首先第一位請陳庭明委員發言謝謝主席我們請李美主委請李美備庭名人主委"},{"start":2430.182,"end":2459.215,"text":"你會覺得你當了這段時間的主委你覺得你有做到位嗎我努力做到位努力做到位那你真的有做到位嗎努力做到位跟真的有做到位跟大家認為你有做到位這不一樣喔這不一樣喔公平會在我們的預算審查當中大家有很多意見"},{"start":2461.397,"end":2482.538,"text":"在我們從過去Uber Eats跟Fupenda的事件好,你們解了一顆炸彈你們解了一顆炸彈你們拒絕沒有接受可是我相信公平會不是只有一件Uber Eats跟Fupenda未來會有更多"},{"start":2484.312,"end":2512.207,"text":"但是我們的態度呢這一次是因為你們趕緊在要審查之前然後通過然後發布這個審查所謂合併案不通過的這樣的一個結果可是如果未來你們這四位都通過了通過之後還有好幾年的任用期我們是不是也可以看到你們對於"},{"start":2513.735,"end":2513.755,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":2533.937,"end":2534.478,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":2553.294,"end":2574.048,"text":"那請問那民眾用心用力去搜了這些證據有什麼用沒用啊到你們手上還是完全不予處理因為他無實證我再說我一直很強調而且非常要求在多層次傳銷"},{"start":2577.073,"end":2595.901,"text":"這種詐騙這麼多我們是不是可以把我們的報備制改為許可制也就是我們的公平會做直接有要求有力道的這樣的一個審查可是你們是拒絕的你們是拒絕的主委從你們拒絕到現在請問多城市傳銷"},{"start":2603.646,"end":2617.604,"text":"案子有減少嗎?詐騙的案子有減少嗎?是越來越多耶是越來越多耶那怎麼辦?你認為你們有做到管控嗎?沒有啊案子越來越多"},{"start":2623.001,"end":2641.251,"text":"主委你們怎麼處理我想跟委員說明採許可制跟查處不合法的多層次傳銷行為我認為它是兩件事情也就是說不管它是許可制或者是這是你們為了要推卸自己的責任你們要推卸自己的責任所講的你們要推卸自己的責任所講的報備跟許可它的強度不一樣"},{"start":2650.213,"end":2661.6,"text":"他的約束不一樣他可以管共的也不一樣怎麼會跟詐騙然後後續這些所出現民眾被受騙的會有不一樣這絕對有相關性是你們為了不讓自己有這麼麻煩的權責你們不願意把武器拿在手上所以你才會這麼說"},{"start":2678.621,"end":2682.654,"text":"所以我對於你多層次傳銷這種處理態度我是非常不滿極度不滿"},{"start":2688.339,"end":2713.755,"text":"你剛才說報備制跟許可制這個跟後續的多層次傳銷的詐騙無關我們依據的查處的法律是一樣的所以不管是不是許可制或是報備制我們應該去研究一下你在源頭的加強管理密度就不一樣了你在源頭加強的管理密度就不一樣了你怎麼能夠讓這些消小他們想要去詐騙的人"},{"start":2719.104,"end":2719.284,"text":"有請秘書長"},{"start":2747.947,"end":2748.607,"text":"秦國秘書長秦國秘書長秦國秘書長秦國秘書長秦國秘書長秦國秘書長"},{"start":2776.309,"end":2780.212,"text":"公平會在多層次傳銷這件事情應該改為經濟部來主管因為公平會的執掌打開來看白紙黑字寫得很清楚他是一個仲裁單位他有什麼樣的武器"},{"start":2801.912,"end":2806.319,"text":"有什麼樣的政策、預算可以輔導一個要去經濟發展的產業"},{"start":2810.891,"end":2838.252,"text":"所以公平會他其實是很他應該格局很大各個行業涉及這個不公平競爭涉及壟斷就是公平會來處理啊你看一個金管會兩個銀行要合併要來知會一下會一下公平會一個Uber交通部跟Fupenda這麼大的一個案子交通部還要會他行不行啊"},{"start":2839.278,"end":2859.594,"text":"你看他這樣子的一個是一個仲裁單位今天把一個多層次傳銷放在公平會我不曉得他一個經濟發展的工具在哪裡他只會更加弱化也就是剛才陳廷輝政委講的只會造就我們的多層次傳銷當中的詐騙這個一個層出不斷的發生"},{"start":2866.185,"end":2888.083,"text":"那我不曉得我再講一個經濟部好了光是一個最傳統的經濟的手段講的評估產銷人發財一個經濟部這麼大的部會他有多少的預算跟人事是公平會的幾倍他就為了發展產業他的預算他的部門產業產銷人發財產品"},{"start":2891.374,"end":2895.219,"text":"發展相關的策略人才產銷人發財財務他都還有一個中小企業處裡面還有一個信保基金啊"},{"start":2908.188,"end":2936.473,"text":"你看到下面的法人多多啊去做政府的左右手去輔導產業一個公平會他怎麼可能去對一個產業多層次傳銷一個幾百億在國內有幾百億有二三十萬人口的從業人員去做管理他很執著公平會很執著那因為他已經曉到齁在整個經濟整個行政院當中沒有他的聲音所以他最大"},{"start":2937.651,"end":2953.097,"text":"最大的部分反而會受你行政院的督導你現在國防部怎麼樣、教育部怎麼樣、經濟部怎麼樣你所有的政策一定要跟你行政院對接他曉到這個根本就是無形、空氣、沒人的差別所以他很大他聽不見我們這些資深的立委我們這些資深立委都是為本土"},{"start":2965.594,"end":2993.68,"text":"優質的這個多層次傳銷在發言我們不是對那種國外的多層次傳銷的公司在台灣只不過是一個經理人在發聲公平會完全是站在整個外商的立場對於本土一針一血一人一物都是來自台灣的企業人才的培訓然後他們都到國外去發展"},{"start":2994.75,"end":3008.55,"text":"像這樣的一個產業生態我想這個今天秘書長來我一定要讓你清楚第二個除了部門組織之外第二個你覺得公平會做一個仲裁監理的單位他可以像經濟部一樣嗎"},{"start":3010.513,"end":3022.659,"text":"我們的公務人員是可以要很密切的跟業界結合我們哪一個司長、哪一個署長現任的署長、司長對於現在產業的所有的工協會不認識的"},{"start":3028.646,"end":3035.59,"text":"你告訴我如果說哪一個工協會不認識而且還常常會徵詢他們的意見我們現在要簽這個相關的國外的這個區域經濟的契約你們產業是怎麼樣你們有沒有什麼困難一個COVID-19下去趕快打電話你們有需要什麼服務平常一個漲價物料的漲價經濟部就趕快的下去你們需要什麼資源"},{"start":3055.922,"end":3068.009,"text":"而不像公平會說一個帳價我趕快查一下哪一個是哪一個是這個哪一個在囤貨齊貨可居光是一個帳價兩個單位的屬性都不一樣所以秘書長在這邊本席是主張在多層次傳銷你要不要重新啟動讓它回歸讓它給經濟部的這個商業司去處理您做個回應吧"},{"start":3087.466,"end":3105.896,"text":"評估當然可以再重新再評估看看那當然就是說業務上的調整這個當然是行政院可以有一些想法不過如果以目前來講業務歸屬在公平會的話因為公平會是獨立機關它的內部怎麼樣做決定我們就比較"},{"start":3108.018,"end":3124.174,"text":"但是他沒有辦法做決定啊還有秘書長你知道他弱化到什麼程度所有打開行政院所有的委員會只有公平會主委說我這個委員制我什麼都不能做決定我尊重委員您做過國發會主委"},{"start":3125.526,"end":3139.613,"text":"我們光是一個小到不行的超委會主委那個講話的氣勢啊面對所有台商講話的氣勢啊農業部現在在農委會你看一下我們的農委會我們的主委"},{"start":3140.863,"end":3165.956,"text":"副主委講的話只有公平會主委說我們這件事情我們交給委員會處理委員會怎麼決定他弱化到這種程度你覺得他你剛才講的我們這個產業給他管會有什麼未來嗎現在的這些的績效全部都是本土產業自己打下了天下我們哪有臉說那個是我們的政績啊只有公平會自己會在這個簡報上說哇這個是我們的多人事專家多麼的好我就覺得汗顏啊"},{"start":3169.918,"end":3184.758,"text":"哪一點你有去輔導過人家你不要找人家不要這邊給人家騷擾就好了一個活動你知道管制到什麼程度我一個行銷我第一季做的行銷到第二季的行銷我要改變行銷的方式我要跟他報備你覺得這個產業會發展嗎"},{"start":3188.137,"end":3214.775,"text":"秘書長您直接給我回憶一些時間的關心您要不要啟動重新審慎的啟動行銷那你不要聽他們的你真的有一個真的在經濟發展當中能夠有主導的一個第三方單位來主導你如果聽他們的還是一樣啊因為他小到不行啊他無力到不行啊他無形隱形到不行啊他幾乎都可以消失在你把它撤掉你覺得你行政院有什麼影響"},{"start":3215.956,"end":3215.976,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":3233.219,"end":3248.471,"text":"小到不行的小委會我們都覺得他的重要性公平會給他撤掉你都不會覺得他重要他只在辦什麼他在辦學術研討不好意思謝主席您回應一下您要不要重新啟動什麼時候開始要交出這個評估報告直接你講我都無所謂你講黃金十年我也接受"},{"start":3254.549,"end":3269.839,"text":"還是讓我召開一個跨部會的協調會﹖看看大家的意見跟想法好﹖好﹖謝謝﹖什麼樣的想法我們再跟委員回報好﹖謝謝秘書長﹖謝謝﹖謝謝林泰華委員下一位張家俊﹖張家俊﹖張家俊不在下一位委員請鄭正前委員"},{"start":3279.689,"end":3302.169,"text":"謝謝主席我想請教一下那個李美貝提名人因為其實您也是現任的那個公平會的主委所以算是一個續任的狀態所以有些基本的部分我們可能就先把它跳過去那因為那天那個公平市長就是陪同你來做各黨團拜會的時候你們當天其實也剛好處理掉了大家之前在經濟委員會非常關心的一個"},{"start":3302.709,"end":3320.107,"text":"副本大跟Uber Eats的合併案那我想請教雖然說那天來的時候其實你們也很具體提到一個就是說目前公民會沒有沒有批准他們的一個這樣子的一個申請那我想問一下就是說如果說一心想要把副本大台灣這邊賣掉他的母公司"},{"start":3320.607,"end":3340.684,"text":"就是Delivery Hero他如果說採取退出市場的方式有一個默契他退出市場的方式那我們公平會這邊會不會有其他的一個後續的因應的方式這是一個可能性一另外可能性二的部分就是說如果Uber Eats他成立一個第三間的一個外送平台的方式去併購掉Full Panda"},{"start":3341.244,"end":3341.404,"text":"李美貝提名"},{"start":3366.643,"end":3387.951,"text":"謝謝委員 第一個問題就是說 如果Hupenda退出市場那Uber Eats在台灣繼續經營 我們還是要看它的市場力量如果它的市場力量很大 大到可能濫用市場地位 這個在公平交易法還有其他的限制競爭甚至連這個獨佔的行為的一些規範的機制 所以現行法還是可以去"},{"start":3388.371,"end":3388.691,"text":"委員會主任委員"},{"start":3417.521,"end":3445.617,"text":"結合的審查原則來處理因為事實上針對數位經濟競爭的問題是公平會有看到然後也有打算要處理可是我們看到目前對於整個數位市場競爭的一個問題就是公平會這邊做的失誤不是很夠那因為您是現任的主委要爭取連任所以我這邊也特別提到說目前你怎麼看待台灣數位平台高度市場"},{"start":3446.397,"end":3446.537,"text":"OK喔"},{"start":3471.405,"end":3493.164,"text":"目前的法律可以規範可是我們看到似乎不太夠因為數位壟斷所造成的一個效果比傳統的市場經濟當中的一個實體經濟當中的一個壟斷的效果更為明顯我們看到美國、日本、歐盟基本上以Google為例子的時候他們都曾經對Google進行壟斷的一個調查台灣這邊有沒有這樣的一個動作"},{"start":3496.627,"end":3501.029,"text":"我想跟委員回報就是說數位經濟發展的結果有大型的數位平台這是事實那我們現行的法規其實是我認為是夠用的但是我們對於數位經濟平台所產生的問題在執法的作為上在"},{"start":3523.456,"end":3528.378,"text":"指法方面的精進度有需要配合數位市場競爭的專法"},{"start":3540.755,"end":3560.27,"text":"我們基本上現行的公平交易法就是在處理市場競爭它並沒有在數位這個環境的情況下排除在外因為情況不太一樣因為尤其像AI的蓬勃之後的時候對於數位壟斷的情況一定會更為嚴峻所以對於台灣要如何去因應這樣的一個問題我剛剛以Google這個例子來舉例的時候"},{"start":3563.473,"end":3564.373,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":3591.688,"end":3596.145,"text":"那針對公平會跟消保處這邊你覺得適不適合把它併在一起"},{"start":3598.267,"end":3622.898,"text":"謝謝委員公平交易法的立法目的也包括消費者保護所以具體個案如果又有消費者保護又有違反到不公平競爭基本上我們都會處理其實目前很多消費者對這兩個沒有辦法分辨得很清楚所以對於公平會跟消保處這邊是不是應該要把它給合併在一起我覺得也是一個在整個行政組織當中可以去思考的一個問題那針對一個數位"},{"start":3625.419,"end":3625.579,"text":"市場經濟專法"},{"start":3651.805,"end":3676.164,"text":"實驗生有限,我直接請鞏秘書長跟李美貝提名人我先問一下鞏秘書長,第一個我先關心一下,這個大寧浦千尊其實拖了很長的時間,從9年前大概林秘書長去道歉那5年前蘇貞昌院長已經來核定,那可不可以請院裡面加快列管這樣的一個速度"},{"start":3677.062,"end":3681.305,"text":"主委、秘書長,事實上這個計畫院已經核定了,所以包括地方政府,也請院長跟秘書長這邊也密切的關心這個案子,協助部長間去加速這樣的一個推動"},{"start":3695.276,"end":3700.079,"text":"我自己的理解是這樣消保處是針對消費者本身的保護如果在面對廠商跟消費者之間有糾紛的時候是站在消費者保護的立場來講"},{"start":3724.929,"end":3744.44,"text":"公平會比較是廠商之廠商之間的公平競爭的問題在市場上當然在考量上消費者受到保護是其中的一環但是最主要還是在競爭上其實事業各國也面對這個問題的時候因為公平會如果只抓在這個的話其實我認為局限會小了一些啦其實我之前跟李美竺也談過他也並不反對"},{"start":3745.02,"end":3773.689,"text":"那我覺得可以考慮看看由院的高度去整合讓各單位發揮更強大的功能要不然我很多時候往比這歸公平外 各區要保持兩邊互相之間各自有權責想做也好像又不太方便又互相卡住我認為其實把整併依照世界各個其他國家把整併在一起會發揮更強大的功能對企業、對企業間、對消費者間都可以有各自有一些處理的方式那我認為會更強大那也讓更多的同仁有更強的能量來處理這件事情好不好議長同意這樣的看法嗎"},{"start":3774.709,"end":3790.159,"text":"謝謝委員的建議我們再回去好不好再演繹看看朝這個方向世界各國很多都已經把這兩個整併在一起了好不好好謝謝民主黨接下來請李美麗主委李北庭委員這次我好像還是要先肯定這個Uber Eats跟Foodpanda這件事情其實處理了"},{"start":3791.639,"end":3792.96,"text":"主委有沒有什麼想法?"},{"start":3810.109,"end":3832.385,"text":"我想謝謝委員禁止結合之後這兩家事業還在市場上競爭在競爭的過程中都要符合我們現行公平交易法的規範我希望未來李主委如果續任的話能夠持續的重視這個問題這會侵犯到消費者的權益會影響到外送人的權益國人高度關注我也希望你們持續用最高的標準在盯著不要讓他們"},{"start":3833.306,"end":3833.486,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3849.119,"end":3863.929,"text":"在我想請教一下其實現在社群裡面充斥很多的一些短影音、廣告它其實是真的廣告但是用推薦的方式這個部分其實我覺得也要重視因為現在很多年輕人都在做短影音像這四個啦每一個都是廣告"},{"start":3864.389,"end":3866.45,"text":"網路上的市場更加的公開透明讓消費者不要被誤導了"},{"start":3890.757,"end":3916.486,"text":"主委這個未來會朝這個方向來做嗎?是的,我們也針對這個網路廣告去修的網路廣告的處理原則不管是見證者或者是網紅部落客如果有不實廣告的情形也是受規範而且我們也有處罰的案例好,我們希望未來有這個會持續加強因為短影音跟這個圖卡都是已經現在的趨勢民進很多都受到這個影響我們希望未來包括李美、貝提米人甚至是未來李竺蔚能夠更加重視這個問題好不好?是的好,謝謝"},{"start":3921.291,"end":3921.532,"text":"下一位諮詢請張祺凱"},{"start":3953.781,"end":3976.608,"text":"主委還在台上請公秘書長一起請公秘書長跟李美貝提名閉鎖定趙委員好今天三個黨團到行政院去協商包括公糧收購那天你也在場你知道後來農業部"},{"start":3979.417,"end":3988.321,"text":"把這個公糧收購我們本來要求每公斤調高5塊錢那調高了多少?背後的方案我自己還沒有看到只有1.81欸"},{"start":3991.801,"end":4013.85,"text":"那一天你有沒有在現場?行政院長跟副院長都答應我們的事情啊第一個有沒有私訊你立法院?這樣是不是農業部欺騙了農民?農業部當初是講說他會讓農民的所得會比原來更好那天我們在國庭就是情情徹徹包括國平東京民眾黨都要求要達到這個組結議的內容"},{"start":4017.686,"end":4035.179,"text":"你回去跟議員講一下現在包括民眾黨跟國民黨都已經決定農業部的業務費大概會砍掉七成以上特別會是全砍還有很多重要的只要不影響到農民的這個農業部預算都過不了而且"},{"start":4037.079,"end":4063.94,"text":"很多各個部位不當的預算、不讓的預算我們都非常嚴格的監督因為行政院騙了立法委員也欺騙了農民你另外一個重點啊你說現在因為財政措施發文發料行政院說什麼?114年度的總預算已經上到禮拜年你們說要重編喔?沒有要重編沒有重編?那進行這項公文為什麼行政院有這個消息?"},{"start":4064.813,"end":4077.361,"text":"那只是發言人他的講述說這個因為這個財務法通過以後可能對我們籌編上會有一些困難所以確定沒有要籌編嗎有確定這是一個那第二個那你說的這個財務法實施以後這個衝擊你們要怎麼解決"},{"start":4080.45,"end":4106.265,"text":"因為我們還有一段時間嘛,如果啦,假設是後年才實施嘛,就是等於是後年的預算明年開始對阿,它有一點的緩衝嘛,所以不會影響到議事嘛對不對對,我們會利用3月份到8月份之前我特別提醒,所以第一個,確定沒有要重編這個事情第二個,明年齁,我看你們現在主計處各個部會都出來挨供什麼一些重要的項目要重來,我看得非常傷心"},{"start":4107.466,"end":4132.278,"text":"因為你們現在提的都是那個最重要的就醫療裡面講到什麼重病的病患還有什麼心療那一些那都是人命關天的事情耶勞保的這個錢耶你要砍的應該砍那些不當的對不對浪費的啊有弊案的啊怎麼去砍那些跟人民罪有關的對不對好不好這個回去如果明年明年明年要再編的時候先從不當的、腐爛的、弊案好不好好那我趕快問一下這個"},{"start":4134.517,"end":4143.567,"text":"大家很關心副編導這個事情齁我問你一個很重要的點進行啊你們說搞不好都要再延60天延到明年的3月21號對不對"},{"start":4145.287,"end":4166.084,"text":"那後來為什麼這麼快馬上就做了決定這裡面轉折是什麼我跟委員說明我們對於結核案件當言則言當決則決因為當事人最後能夠到公平會陳述意見這是必要的正當程序他能夠來公平會陳述意見的時間是12月17號我們的法定應該做審決的時間是19號只有兩天當言則言所以我們必須要言"},{"start":4174.13,"end":4174.53,"text":"委員會聽過這些陳述的內容我們開委員會"},{"start":4191.587,"end":4216.865,"text":"這個事業對各界的回應等等都有做說明那經過我們委員會開會討論覺得這個案子限制競爭的利益這個疑慮還是很大所以委員間意見相當共識相當高那當決則決我來問一個都城市傳銷的這個事情主委你知道這個愛妮雅吧是很多新聞都出現這個特別很多年輕人學生老是這個"},{"start":4219.052,"end":4245.95,"text":"被他們拉進去,我看你們上次有裁判過在2020年1﹗有,我們裁判最高法定的這個法環最高嘛,那可是這個事情一直現在進行式啊所以你是處罰完以後就沒事了?媒體動不動幾天一兩個禮拜就有說學生受害欸如果繼續有這樣不當行銷的行為,我們當然要繼續查處另外要請問一下,你知道雞蛋吹,現在過剩價格跌得很慘對不對?"},{"start":4247.401,"end":4247.801,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4260.622,"end":4282.548,"text":"如果第一個彈架有特別法在處理如果這個依託特別法的規定而有聯合壟斷的情形公平法也是有處理你有去查嗎?有沒有?為什麼?我們跟農業部都有這個互相緊密的聯繫所以有去查了嗎?我們有去了解有去查所以目前沒有啊目前沒有為什麼彈那麼多這彈籠的價格那麼它賣出去這麼低啊我們在這買買這麼貴啊沒有查出任何的壟斷或者不當的這個行為"},{"start":4289.195,"end":4296.68,"text":"我們跟農委會都有這個緊密的合作目前看起來並沒有這個結合起來聯合壟斷的情形那怎麼辦?怎麼解決這個問題?我們這樣買這麼貴,又賺不到錢再去查一下好不好?特別是看沒有壟斷好謝謝請回座社會請李議員"},{"start":4326.633,"end":4355.02,"text":"好 謝謝主席我們請李美貝提名人請李美貝提名人是 四位你雖然說是貝提名人但是你是屬於是尋求連任的那在這次的四位裡面的話大概三位都是要尋求連任只有一位在競爭處也當過處長你都應該是熟悉了我們公平會的這個業務所以我們希望你們未來能夠公平會可以盡量做到符合社會的這個期待"},{"start":4355.6,"end":4383.021,"text":"那如何要去符合社會的期待那你有什麼對提升執法的一個效能呢?謝謝委員我們主要的業務一個是執法一個是國際合作一個是讓台灣的競爭環境更為公平那在從我四年前擔任主委之後我對於整個台灣經濟環境的發展非常重視所以我們對於尤其是數位經濟發展下可能面臨的問題"},{"start":4384.002,"end":4384.062,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4404.617,"end":4430.903,"text":"但是我們看到這個富邦大他的德國這個母公司是屬於虧損的所以他現在也毅然決然就決定要退出這個臺灣市長那這樣子的話烏柏易的話就變成自然獨占那自然獨占的話這個競爭上就有失公平那請問被提名人那個林美主委那你如何去避免那萬一這個烏柏易有妨害我們公平競爭的這個行為呢"},{"start":4432.643,"end":4452.418,"text":"我想跟委員說明一個事業在市場上的市佔率很高甚至是獨佔的情況下這是事業經營的結果公平法對於獨佔這件事情不是當然違法而是要看在獨佔的市場力下有沒有濫用市場力"},{"start":4453.561,"end":4454.442,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":4474.053,"end":4474.473,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4497.259,"end":4522.694,"text":"未來如果有任何的這個結合的情形我們當然要受...如果符合這個合併條...合併條件的話我們會受理那目前將來的Uber Eats也好Furbana也好任何事業他在從事競爭行為的時候一定要符合我們的規範當然要符合所以說現在的公平交易法是要與時俱進必須要修法去年你也說要修法那現在修了沒有進度在哪裡我們針對"},{"start":4524.943,"end":4545.767,"text":"白皮書我們發布的白皮書的內容有盤點一些短期長期要做的一些作為那修法是一個比較要仔細的工作我們有提出草案但是要跟社會各界來評估這樣的草案是否適當我們有提出草案"},{"start":4546.287,"end":4575.499,"text":"所以我們希望說我們要了解到現在的市場上我們要公平競爭那有現在這個寡戰這個獨佔這個問題發生的時候你們必須就要排除這個問題我們現在的公平交易法裡面有很多不適用的方法我們就必須要改變方式才能夠保障到整個市場的營運你說對不對謝謝委員當然法律要與時俱進不過現行的公平交易法對於獨佔寡戰聯合其實都已經有完整的規定"},{"start":4576.604,"end":4594.193,"text":"所以我們要讓我們的市場競爭的次序一定要維護下來那你的公平交易法的話盡快送上來好不好我們會評估是謝謝林議員時間掌握非常非常精準感謝來請回座謝謝楊瓊英委員謝謝謝謝主席楊瓊英發言邀請備題名人請林美備題名人"},{"start":4608.105,"end":4635.475,"text":"這一次呢民眾跟本席一樣看到您在25日呢公平會做出了福偏大以及UberEats禁止合併的這個決議那麼大家都鬆了一口氣那這個呢公平會的決議重點大致上是說併購具有顯著限制競爭疑慮餐廳消費等交易相對人欠缺了抗衡平台的力量"},{"start":4636.135,"end":4636.275,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4658.677,"end":4658.697,"text":"請說說名"},{"start":4683.216,"end":4699.926,"text":"謝謝委員這個案子是11月8號文件齊備處於可以審查的狀態我們討論過了很多次法定要決定的時間如果沒有延的話本席非常的清楚所以要請教在這個過程當中5月說要併購11月份你還在請他們補資料所以在這個情況之下本席要請教當然現在答案揭曉了也就是在這個過程當中"},{"start":4711.733,"end":4741.093,"text":"公平會的歸宿還是業者來拖延那業者在這個當中有沒有採取行動或者是任何的意見沒有歸宿也沒有拖延我們完全按資料的齊備程度那因為這麼大的案子一定要讓當事人有陳述意見的機會我們在11月8號在這個過程業者有沒有對公平會的處置有意見或者有行動在12月7號當業者來陳述意見當然有很完整的說明"},{"start":4742.193,"end":4753.919,"text":"業者有完整的說明他們的意見對本案的看法對各界疑慮的看法這是在12月17號業者來陳述意見有做說明業者陳述意見所以本期還是要強調從5月份到12月"},{"start":4757.42,"end":4764.203,"text":"那因為民眾非常的關切這個議題因為它影響到電子行影響到消費者影響到我們外送人員的一個權利所以本席也跟你討論過了很多次本席希望針對於民生重大影響的這個議案應該還要更謹慎尤其是在時效上面一定要掌控好"},{"start":4781.411,"end":4796.319,"text":"好 所以本席要請教在簡歷當中你提到公平會是要接地氣孤立而獨立而不孤立所以本席也要提醒就剛才本席所說的像這樣重大"},{"start":4796.519,"end":4798.079,"text":"我認同那也容許我說明一下為什麼我沒有這個17號當事人陳述意見這件事情其實我們很早就"},{"start":4821.966,"end":4844.186,"text":"主委你既然認同本席要請教也希望謹慎之也就是在整個公平會處理外送平台的這個案子以專業產業發展跟權益保障的角度來做考量所以本席要請教你未來會支持外送員產業相關的專法嗎"},{"start":4848.709,"end":4858.154,"text":"當然,橫向的勞動部都已經有提出所以本席也希望你要支持這個外送員的產業專法然後讓我們整個台灣的這一塊平台能夠真正的穩定落實"},{"start":4871.82,"end":4873.401,"text":"下一位請我們最資深的陳超明委員"},{"start":4900.009,"end":4905.436,"text":"陳昌明委員．最資深的陳昌明委員．請上來"},{"start":4913.913,"end":4926.979,"text":"主席好主席有一點抗議這麼重要的人事啊你只給我們每一個人4分鐘你很會安排時間4分鐘所以這個要改進你應該給大家問出問題才重點好不好那第一個問題我請教我們林美職委"},{"start":4936.721,"end":4954.908,"text":"你擔任了我們公平組的交易委員會主委大概有4年的時間來參與那你就任的時候提示了行進程序要更透明要加強對外溝通要掌握數位經濟的發展那你覺得這幾年你做的怎麼樣這幾年我...沒有這次我評問一下因為我們有常常執行到你"},{"start":4961.914,"end":4970.184,"text":"是,我積極在注意我當時上任時對自己的期許,在因應數位經濟時代方面,我們發布...我的分數..."},{"start":4981.932,"end":5010.867,"text":"我是覺得擦牆的意義還可以啦好不好謝謝然後我始終一個存在的問題就是這個穩定物價小組公平交易委員委員算很重要但是我常常想到這個問題是公西的問題在國外好像沒有穩定物價小組只有通膨的問題那現在如果一般的農民在颱風天或是乾旱時期那個作物做"},{"start":5012.011,"end":5027.325,"text":"就整個Pace 5的時候物價上漲的時候你們就去查我覺得現在要壟斷這個物價的時候很少除了大宗物資才有可能一般的這些其實不要管得那麼多啦"},{"start":5028.326,"end":5050.42,"text":"像雞蛋的時候我就覺得很奇怪有時候多有時候少這有歷史因素我感覺這個物價穩定小子在民生問題裡面要好好考慮一些工廠就能囤齁老百姓、農民給他抓了一點你們就說他是在囤積齁那個農產品還是各種物品啊觀念稍微改一下"},{"start":5051.58,"end":5079.353,"text":"我不曉得我們現在國務會主委現在當行政院民事長在物價穩定上有關於農產品添災的問題各方面問題其實不要去調整這個是做生意大家的一個法則我不是在推壓生意人工的農民生在那個時間都要賺一塊錢也合理的好像東西欠錢鴻海鴻海在打仗那鴻海一豁起來實力就上漲了這個道理是一樣的我們觀念要改變"},{"start":5080.233,"end":5095.66,"text":"好不好保護農民這個地方供應商要如何去處理這個問題絕對要加強到時候物價上漲你們剛剛從上天查到地下都要去查查了出來都沒有結果擾亂民心"},{"start":5098.066,"end":5109.818,"text":"那再來我常常問你一個高通的問題那高通問題的決定不是在你決定你是說是算貨那高通的7億美金到現在為止"},{"start":5111.363,"end":5135.811,"text":"我看不出來台灣把他罰款的7億美金等於是公安院的210億到250億之間一年的預算那給到高通的這些錢對台灣到底有什麼貢獻看不出來我只要你拜託跟經濟部你上任了以後你通過了以後做一張表給我看高通要發展5億"},{"start":5137.452,"end":5163.064,"text":"5G它的貢獻在哪裡?臺灣的廠商有沒有能夠得到它研發的一個結果?這個一定要做出來。第二個,它的交易訓練在哪裡?其實這裡面真的把臺灣的系統都搞亂了。它去挖台積電人、挖聯發科的人、挖到臺灣呱呱叫,我們還洋洋得意,這一點你又沒有辦法做到。"},{"start":5164.943,"end":5190.793,"text":"謝謝委員,高通的和解方案都是...沒有沒有,你把它結論下來,我要看真的看出來,看你們如何寫那我問科技界沒有人曉得啊我們寫一份這個整個和解方案的執行情形跟報告給委員你報告出來喔,要寫好喔,不是寫得模模糊糊啊,講他那個我要了解多少廠,台灣的多少廠商收益請你一個工研院的預算給他再用"},{"start":5192.033,"end":5220.579,"text":"臺灣的廠商沒有任何得到任何他研發的成果跟我們自己贏得的是一個效益戰不然以我如果是當初我決定我絕對給公園院加倍起來我們自己研發嘛我們國人能得到享受我們的利益嘛研發的一個效果跟利益嘛啊你有高通,他幫你控制到人家還跟你載了一筆啊你們大家這些人要做事另外當然那個"},{"start":5222.193,"end":5222.213,"text":"暫停會議"},{"start":5227.511,"end":5252.983,"text":"這個現在你沒有通過,大家很認同。但是我會說,先你人幾個中,不然我就出他的股權。不然我用虱目基金來,我們行政院、國民司長、國務法會的時候,他就在推動虱目基金,所以這先你的風化警戒啊,不要台灣人也不要高興啊。他這個外國的大公司在做結合的時候,我看你也控制不了。"},{"start":5254.183,"end":5282.138,"text":"會像高通一樣這個注意一下如果他用私募基金或是私下把他股權買到51、52一個公司兩套人馬暗中暈中出來你要如何去應付這是你要面對的問題現在沒有結合但是我各種手段能做結合趙偉你不是腳麻痺嗎怎麼那麼快站起來好啦謝謝"},{"start":5289.213,"end":5299.86,"text":"謝謝陳昌明掌握時間非常好因為本席當任主席所以本席的咨詢改成順便下一位請黃國昌"},{"start":5314.089,"end":5337.617,"text":"被提名的你好只有4分鐘的時間我希望你珍惜這4分鐘我為什麼說希望你珍惜這4分鐘因為您的答案會實質的影響在這一次同意選行事我們的投票決定所以這個主要是請教你立場跟基本態度的問題4分鐘的時間不會對你進行太實質的質詢第一個問題"},{"start":5343.208,"end":5366.344,"text":"公平會維護市場交易秩序我相信是最重要的事情對於不當廉潔禁止原則公平會應不應該遵守?請不當廉潔禁止原則是應該要遵守?是應該要遵守嗎?好來2022年7月公平會通過全聯併大論法"},{"start":5368.366,"end":5394.813,"text":"這是一個引發社會高度爭議的併購案因為它會深刻的衝擊消費者的權益當初4比3三位委員提出不同意見書三位委員提出不同意見書我相信三位委員所提出的不同意見書主委你應該都拜讀過了那這個對於整個市場的交易秩序跟消費者權益衝擊如此大的"},{"start":5396.38,"end":5425.052,"text":"的併購案他所造成後續的影響我必須要說與波蕩漾我看了這個結合的書裡面是不是有個委員要求提出大論法三年內每年捐3億當贖罪券是哪個委員提出的要求我們有委員這樣的是哪個委員"},{"start":5426.428,"end":5447.703,"text":"我想這個內部會議所做成的這個討論的過程我不適合來說明沒有因為我怕我怕誤殺誤估啦所以我給你機會澄清啦是你提這樣的要求嗎?不是是副主委提這樣的要求嗎?不是那是哪一位委員提這樣的要求?"},{"start":5448.602,"end":5470.49,"text":"我想這個在委員會討論的這個主委你認同不認同每一位委員4比3的比數每一位委員要為自己的投票行為負責任主委你認不認同我想每一位委員為投票的結果最後就是公平會的意見公平會的處分應該受社會大眾的檢視沒有錯"},{"start":5476.342,"end":5504.543,"text":"當場有一位委員要求全聯加碼捐贈1億元來推廣體育跟棋藝活動他才要投贊成票這是我接到的檢舉這個檢舉的內容屬不屬實有這樣的情形但是我們也有徵詢結合當事人是否同意在他同意的情況下他併購成功利益這麼大每年捐個3億元九牛一毛啊"},{"start":5505.802,"end":5520.534,"text":"九牛一毛啊在審議的過程跟業者開口每一年多捐一億來贊助什麼來贊助體育跟棋藝的活動這有沒有違反不當連結禁止原則請教主委現在我問的是法學的問題啊在併購案的審議過程當中當場開口跟業者要一億需要拿來贊助"},{"start":5536.326,"end":5547.898,"text":"這有沒有違反不當連結禁止的原則現在喔這個不是你有沒有幫那個委員講話的問題喔是你作為主委在你的法學專業上公平會這樣做適合嗎"},{"start":5551.345,"end":5575.173,"text":"我給你機會請主委再記得這件事喔我現在再給你機會喔適合還是不適合我想跟委員說明喔最終是針對結合案是否禁止來討論那這個捐款的部分我們也有請結合事業那當然會答應嘛那再同意作為一個附加的如果是葉澤民他不答應"},{"start":5576.173,"end":5577.995,"text":"主委,我已經給你時間了主席也站起來我尊重其他委員的時間謝謝"},{"start":5619.783,"end":5633.648,"text":"謝謝主席那一樣請我們主委主委這個在12月25號你送了一個聖誕大禮就是否決掉這個Uber Eats跟Panda的合併案那其實我們也關心了這個議題很久的時間"},{"start":5634.568,"end":5635.188,"text":"實踐一下就可以說到那麼短"},{"start":5661.286,"end":5662.127,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5679.365,"end":5695.778,"text":"為了閉門我們在這個委員會討論的時候會需要再一些補充所以當言則言我們言了那這個言就是60天的工作天就是到3月不等於我們要把它到3月才什麼最常是在言60個工作天啦那因為你們當初這樣講的時候在野黨還是還認為說你們是不是用這個審查來綁這個今天這個公平會主委的這個還有委員的這個審查權啊還背了這個黑鍋啊但是我當時不適合說17號當事人會來陳述意見"},{"start":5708.407,"end":5735.949,"text":"是一個很個別的案情那當事人陳述意見之後我們開委員會討論委員會的共識度相當高當決則決所以我們做出所以對於這一個兩個合併案禁止他們合併案其實你們委員的的共識就相當高就對了你們有幾個委員參與這個這個評議啊我們有7位委員7位然後最後7位都有這個共識嗎我們有經過充分的討論有經過充分討論所以最後7位就是共識決就是禁止合併嗎"},{"start":5737.88,"end":5751.894,"text":"我們有不同意見嗎?當然委員有不同的意見,但是都是希望讓這個審查的你最後有投票嗎?還是就構思決?一定要投票的那最後票數是幾比幾?"},{"start":5753.115,"end":5779.235,"text":"我們有6位委員是贊成另外一位委員也不是全然反對只是覺得說這個審議的內容我們分析的論述希望能夠更完整那這個他們會不會再打這個行政訴訟的救濟這個要看當事人自己的這個判斷那你們這個出來之後20號出來之後他們有跟你們講什麼嗎"},{"start":5780.353,"end":5803.291,"text":"我們發布新聞稿之後我在媒體上有看到他們的說明基本上本案收到決定書之後事業如何去回應我們的決定書我想這是事業自己會去判斷所以你們就只有看到他們的新聞稿就對了他也沒有再找你們再說什麼就對了"},{"start":5806.099,"end":5823.497,"text":"那請問一下那有沒有可能就是說那個Fu Panda他們最後會退出如果因為這樣合併失敗退出台灣市場然後造成另外一種形式的壟斷因為他是不是退出市場這個是企業自己這個這個事業內部的一個考量那如果他退出市場或不退出市場對我是說如果退出市場"},{"start":5824.378,"end":5850.993,"text":"那是不是會形成另外一個壟斷 有沒有可能那畢竟Uber Eats在臺灣就會變成很大那我們公民法對於這個有相當市佔力市長力很大的事業都有一個法律機制可以來他們兩家最後到底齁這一個這個佔了這個我們這個所有的這個外送平台是大概幾成啊你們最後的兩個加起來我們用我們的這個參與外送平台的市佔力去"},{"start":5851.949,"end":5864.335,"text":"去評估有兩個加起來有超過九成好謝謝謝謝主委謝謝主席好謝謝昆城協會鍾嘉斌張嘉斌張嘉斌不在葉元智請葉元智"},{"start":5877.447,"end":5903.769,"text":"主委請教一下我記得我上一次在這邊諮詢你的時候那時候也有問Uber Eats跟Foodpanda的問題感覺上好像那時候已經漏口風了就覺得說不會讓這兩家合併因為當時就是你講的我那時候說要把那個唐鳳的點心麵平台算進來你說如果把它算進來的話那分母又變大了那個兩家合併的市佔率相對來說被稀釋我的感覺好像你那時候就已經"},{"start":5904.79,"end":5921.788,"text":"已經預設說不會讓它合併那我想請教一下當時你的考慮其實已經就已經決定不會讓他們合併了嘛對不對因為當時委員會還沒有審查不能先講對不對不能先講但是實際上你個人的立場是覺得不要讓它合併嘛原因是什麼"},{"start":5924.09,"end":5944.691,"text":"我想在全世界第一大並第二大造成一個獨佔的情況都是非常慎重的非常慎重都是非常慎重那現在有一個問題因為Uber E跟Fupenda他們Uber E的母公司在海外實際上已經併購Fupenda這事你知道嗎?"},{"start":5945.786,"end":5972.509,"text":"在臺灣有一些這個臺灣有一些控制的情形我瞭解你知道嗎 知道齁那現在假設啦Uber Eats的母公司後來在臺灣沒辦法併購Foodpanda最後他們決定Foodpanda退出臺灣市場然後再由Uber Eats去把原本Foodpanda的市場把它吃下來那這會不會也一樣就是造成市場壟斷的狀況這個公平會有沒有掌握或者是因應之道"},{"start":5973.407,"end":5998.262,"text":"我想如果副本塔推出市場這個餐飲外送平台市場的發展會怎麼樣是要進一步觀察那假設因此而Uber Eats的市場力很大甚至到獨佔的地位我們現行公平交易法對於獨佔的這個不可以有的行為還有對其他限制競爭濫用市場力的行為都有規範我們同樣會密切的關注"},{"start":5999.6,"end":6011.485,"text":"這樣的發展密切關注對現在就是我是覺得要超前部署啦因為這個是一個可見的未來嘛非常有可能嘛對因為副部長現在就是感覺要退出台灣市場的決心還蠻強的啦"},{"start":6014.011,"end":6031.204,"text":"所以不是說這一關你把它卡掉之後好像後續我們就靜觀其變我只是覺得應該要事先掌握而且上一次我給你建議啊你未來要審查類似案子的時候應該要要求外送平台要做好一些偏鄉的服務啦因為有時候偏鄉根本都叫不到"},{"start":6031.764,"end":6048.739,"text":"所以他們市場過於集中嘛然後另外我再問一個也是另外一個併購案你們的態度是什麼?就是日本汽車現在尼桑、Honda跟Miss Beach已經在談判和平了那我們公平會現在有沒有掌握到他們的和平案?未來可能對台灣的汽車市場的影響有沒有?"},{"start":6049.179,"end":6076.213,"text":"這部分我們有看到相關的新聞那是不是符合臺灣的結合的門檻如果符合結合門檻會到公平會來申請我們會去注意門檻是怎麼樣我會看這個結合當事人的市佔率銷售金額做整個綜合的我知道我是說原則上是怎樣你不要講原則啦我是說就這個個案你們有沒有掌握這個個案我了解我這個案子了解這個案子是要及早因應啊是好謝謝好謝謝來"},{"start":6083.427,"end":6104.063,"text":"登記發言委員出部在場之外,其餘均發言人並為我們訓導結束。現在請李美貝提名人先請先離席。好,謝謝。好,我們休息五分鐘。接著下一場是陳志民貝提名人的再訓導。"},{"start":6110.316,"end":6110.816,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6140.657,"end":6165.299,"text":"響鐘響鐘"},{"start":6178.772,"end":6179.392,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6198.356,"end":6199.537,"text":"副主任委員"},{"start":6234.358,"end":6235.278,"text":"委員會主任委員"},{"start":6264.516,"end":6280.994,"text":"有一次,有一次不然你去參議院講,那我先問你這件事。我是認為他是那個十月天分的代理。"},{"start":6286.139,"end":6286.659,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6321.912,"end":6343.279,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6349.602,"end":6354.366,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6375.867,"end":6376.727,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6411.84,"end":6427.305,"text":"好,我們現在繼續開會第二場是針對公平交易委員會被提名陳志民先生的這個審查首先請行政院秘書長和民心秘書長先做說明"},{"start":6433.984,"end":6462.443,"text":"謝謝主席,我們行政院提名下一任的這個有關公平會的副主任委員由陳志民也是現在的副主任委員來擔任那我想陳志民副主任委員他的專長是在也是在法律面尤其是針對公平交易法、經濟法還有管制政策跟法規、智慧財產權跟競爭法還有英美法、法律分析等等法律經濟分析等等"},{"start":6463.684,"end":6489.18,"text":"他也承認過這個淡江大學公共行政系的專任的助理教授、副教授還有中研大學財經法律學系的專任副教授教授而且兼任財經法學系的系主任也專任教授、教授兼法學院院長以及系主任還有行政院的公平委員會的委員一些等等的職務我想"},{"start":6490.44,"end":6508.611,"text":"陳志民副主任委員．他的專業知識或實務經驗．學養都很豐富．那敬請貴院支持以上報告謝謝國民心秘書長說明接下來請公民會委員被提名．並為副主任委員．陳志民先生請做說明"},{"start":6516.716,"end":6542.563,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士先生、大家早安今天很高興也很榮幸有這個機會來這邊參與這個聯席審查會議那我個人在公平會服務之前我是來自學界剛剛秘書長已經有介紹過那我的背景是法律我是台大法律系畢業那後來在美國西北大學拿到法學博士那我專攻的領域就是所謂的反托拉斯法還有就是我們的公平教育法還有法律的經濟分析"},{"start":6543.323,"end":6559.443,"text":"那我人生兩段的公職經驗都是在公平會在2007到2010年我是公平會第6屆的委員那2021年或行政院提名回公平會擔任副主委一直到現在那在我擔任這次擔任副主委的這段期間"},{"start":6560.904,"end":6578.728,"text":"我個人對公平會做出了一些我覺得還蠻實質的貢獻當然我個人也成長學習很多就個案的審查部分幾乎會內面多數的案子都會經過我的審查那在會內的一些例行的委員會我擔任很多委員會的召集人包含信憑、偵審會、資訊還有資安還有現在有一個永續長永續委員會"},{"start":6585.49,"end":6605.971,"text":"那當然會面也特別針對一些特殊的政策或制度的變革有成立了一些比較特別的委員會像結合申報程序的改進的委員會我也是負責召集人那另外一個就是有關數位經濟的一個委員會那本人也是或主委的指示擔任召集人那這個數位經濟的部分"},{"start":6607.913,"end":6620.407,"text":"在我的指導之下還有領導之下我們的數位小組最後制定了一個叫數位經濟競爭政策白皮書那這個白皮書獲得國內外很多的肯定那也是作為本會未來針對數位經濟的競爭問題的一個範本、一個指南"},{"start":6626.374,"end":6637.729,"text":"那另外在除了這個以外我本身也是會裡面負責國際事務的公平會目前是國際間的一些主要的競爭的國際組織的一個會員包含OECD競爭委員會還有ICN這個所謂的競爭網絡"},{"start":6643.897,"end":6663.282,"text":"那基本上國際事務是由我來負責特別是在OECD的部分那我每年大概都會率團參加OECD的國際研討會那在會裡面將本會的執法績效向與會各國來做一個報告並接受詢問那這一點我想在國際間讓台灣公平交易委員會能夠獲得"},{"start":6664.462,"end":6664.762,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6681.751,"end":6701.134,"text":"就是必須跟國際間的執法現況有一定程度的接軌那當然也加速這個國際化的程度那在這個過程當中公平會當然持續會面臨到很多新的競爭議題那這是本會在執法能量還有執法品質必須要加以提升的那我相信以我個人在學界的專攻"},{"start":6701.935,"end":6702.035,"text":"主席"},{"start":6721.243,"end":6732.129,"text":"好,謝謝。謝謝國民市長跟陳志民被提名的說明。現在進行巡查。巡查委員巡查之前做一下宣告。國民法案實現聯繫委員會4分鐘,非聯繫委員會3分鐘。第一位請黃國昌。麻煩有請被提名的。"},{"start":6752.222,"end":6780.574,"text":"委員早背題人你好我想我只這一次請教你問題的原則跟上一位被提名人主委李美態度一模一樣只有4分鐘的時間那我想要確定確定一下你的立場那也給你機會說明2022年7月公平會通過全聯併購大論法案4比3"},{"start":6782.518,"end":6810.794,"text":"4比3非常近的比例全聯併合大論發了以後在市場上面所具有獨佔的地位對消費者所造成的衝擊跟影響我想副主委你很清楚吧?清楚你很清楚嗎?清楚在那一次併購的時候有委員提出來說要全聯一年要捐3億出來那位委員是你嗎?不是是哪一位委員?"},{"start":6812.341,"end":6823.229,"text":"是不是容許委員我就不方便在這邊好沒有關係啊你贊不贊成可以這樣搞可以這樣搞這跟市場的公平競爭秩序有什麼關係啊"},{"start":6825.299,"end":6850.266,"text":"坦白跟委員講這個案子在審查當下我個人是有提出這樣的一個意見什麼意見 說清楚我有提醒委員要注意到不當連結的問題你有提醒他要注意不當連結的問題他還是執意為之因為每個委員都有獨立行使之權是啊但你們委員會共同做出決定在公平會裡面的決定書當中"},{"start":6854.491,"end":6880.473,"text":"出現了這樣子的東西等於是什麼?裡面有委員因為個人的喜好個人的偏好開口要求業者加碼再捐一億他才要投贊成票你說你有提醒這有不當連結禁止原則違反的問題他還是執意為之那你們委員會在進行審議的時候"},{"start":6882.554,"end":6910.174,"text":"不應該把這件事情納入考慮嗎我想當初在討論的時候所有的各個面向都會在委員會裡面是!針對這件事情的面向請副主委我提醒副主委我現在是在給你機會可以這樣幹嗎你個人覺得適合嗎清楚表明你的看法我的看法就是在那次委員會裡面我表達對那個委員表達的看法"},{"start":6911.158,"end":6939.685,"text":"表達什麼看法再說一次清楚的跟大家講我提醒在付負擔跟我們結合案的審查必須要符合不當連結的原則你認為這有沒有違反不當連結禁止原則我個人認為是這樣的一個連結是並不是很妥當好我就是要這種態度啊要不然我們在這邊審查什麼每一個人的看法心中的那把尺很重要"},{"start":6941.496,"end":6968.888,"text":"公平交易委員會牽涉到多少衝擊消費者利益保護的事情啊要求全聯捐錢才要通過結合權力這麼大胡搞瞎搞到這種程度啊再往後看2022年7月到目前為止全聯有沒有履行每年捐3億的承諾就我了解是有了"},{"start":6969.718,"end":6972.719,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":6991.818,"end":7016.017,"text":"結果通過付負擔當然事後競爭主管機關還是得要持續去監督有沒有履行是那監督的結果呢那很遺憾的就是看到企業沒有按照當初答應的來履行所以我們當然就處罰以併購阿他所得的經濟上利益跟你罰他兩千萬你會不會覺得不痛不癢一般的人民阿可能搞個兩千萬就要傾家蕩產阿"},{"start":7018.439,"end":7018.599,"text":"好 主席站起來囉 謝謝"},{"start":7047.483,"end":7051.064,"text":"有請秘書長、提名副主委、副秘書長、陳志民副提名人"},{"start":7077.57,"end":7084.017,"text":"民主黨我再讓你清楚除了剛才我第一次的發言是針對主張多層次傳銷應該已有經濟部來處理以及第二個我也這個附議陳庭飛成委員的將這個制度改為這個許可是有報備這改許可是另外一個在這個"},{"start":7098.098,"end":7117.369,"text":"我們有成立一個在公平會有成立一個多層次傳銷保護基金會這也算是說依法成立啦原意是希望說我們的傳銷商業者跟傳銷商我們要保護最基層的傳銷商好那你看喔你知道他們的績效多差"},{"start":7118.389,"end":7119.871,"text":"10年啊從100這個10年從103年到113年這滿10年好然後呢他現在累計多少錢3.6億"},{"start":7130.356,"end":7147.459,"text":"基金那這些業者呢 非常的憤憤不平因為這個基金會就是不做事他們繳錢不做事他們繳這個年費在我們的倡議之下我這個經過幾次都認為這個是沒有用的所以他們從今年開始不收年費了"},{"start":7148.82,"end":7153.262,"text":"那年費呢 之前是怎麼樣這個新報備還沒有營業先繳一萬塊按照累計啊 這個你的營業額到五百萬以上的有兩萬到營業額七萬以上的繳十萬這年費那在我們倡議之下 這個實在太沒有功能了他們終於有一點點覺醒說好 那就從今天開始不用繳年費"},{"start":7170.51,"end":7174.771,"text":"好 你知道基金呢保護基金他們要繳喔年費跟保護基金不用繳年費要繳基金嘛那基金呢就是說你的營業額如果我從上往下多的20億以上的你每年喔要繳400萬營業額15億以上的呢是未滿20億的呢繳300萬營業額呢10億到未滿15億的呢繳250萬營業額6億以上未達10億的繳200萬等等等"},{"start":7200.657,"end":7200.8,"text":"大家好!"},{"start":7201.144,"end":7201.324,"text":"強迫他繳的"},{"start":7231.344,"end":7257.998,"text":"律師我也支持你所以你知道這些業者這些本土的業者我們一定挺本土的業者他有辦法立足台灣放眼全球的服務業你告訴我有哪幾個有啦現在多了一個叫做那個那個那個連鎖店的連鎖直銷的這個也是很這個在服務業當中就是多層次上要跟這個連鎖店我們有辦法業者自己立足台灣放眼全球啊"},{"start":7258.578,"end":7278.349,"text":"好那這些業者這些本土的業者怎麼說呢他說我們寧願吼我們不要講廢掉這個基金會我全數歸功他們已經覺得憤恨不平這是這個是這個是幾乎啊要你政府強力的勒索我業者我有這些業績我就一定得講"},{"start":7279.744,"end":7305.011,"text":"所以他做了什麼 剛才我也報告了10年 調組代償一件然後呢 調組呢 好不容易在我們的催促之下你覺得業者 我這個多層次這些業者 他們基本上也不需要你什麼什麼去調組 因為這是他的信譽如果他的傳銷商來跟他有什麼的這個不管是合約啦 或者是相關的"},{"start":7305.931,"end":7309.093,"text":"財政部金融消費平益中心深受人民滿意度之高"},{"start":7331.167,"end":7354.615,"text":"我都舉例喔,我在那個過往的質詢當中財政部的金融消費平益中心都是幾百件幾百件然後每年的這樣在那個那同樣都是業者租錢這個基金會很特別喔多層次傳接保護基金政府一毛錢都沒出你看我對公平會喔真的是政府一毛錢沒出他要主導他的董事董監事"},{"start":7356.021,"end":7379.815,"text":"他要主導這不是很奇怪嗎所以他只在小道齁如果今天不是秘書長來齁我還真沒有我的陳情案齁我真的要感謝秘書長其實我本席就一些產業界的一些業的問題我到你這邊你其實都會幫我處理我對你是敬佩啊就是說你真的來當秘書長我實在是非常開心的我剛好逮到今天你才來到這邊我可以跟你陳情啊"},{"start":7381.415,"end":7389.518,"text":"這邊都是本土的業者捏那我們的公平業都是土外商捏然後這個東西還壓在我們國內的這些業者捏強制的要求他們繳錢捏400萬、300萬這樣在繳捏這個秘書長您講個話吧您覺得在你的評估當中要不要處理"},{"start":7401.992,"end":7411.574,"text":"剛剛委員也有反映嘛業者的這個想法嘛我想公平委員會也做了適度的調整那這個調整程度夠不夠我想容我們不是不夠不是不夠的問題是完全無能秘書長如果今天不是因為本黨本黨的立委我一定要去支持那個人事案因為有假動嘛我不支持我必必被罰要不然我真的投不下去啦"},{"start":7431.617,"end":7431.777,"text":"主席"},{"start":7462.399,"end":7483.89,"text":"各位委員有請被提名的副主委副主委你在公平會很多年了過去我看了相關的這些報告這個"},{"start":7489.153,"end":7506.74,"text":"臺灣為已開發國家被詐金額最高的國家日常交易已成詐騙的溫床就公平會的業務而言這些被詐騙的有哪些是屬於你們的"},{"start":7509.994,"end":7538.012,"text":"各位報告一下就是如果純粹是吸金故意惡意的詐欺這個本身會涉及到刑責的問題那這部分案子我們大概就是依請檢察官或法務部這邊來進行後續的調查那本會的立場對於這個詐騙行為主要是在不實廣告的規定所以如果業者有刻意的散佈錯誤的訊息導致消費者去做了錯誤的消費決定這部分我們都是會嚴格去查處跟處分這個副主委"},{"start":7539.178,"end":7564.306,"text":"不是只有不實廣告我們看公平交易委員會組織法維護交易自息以消費者權益然後公平會組織法第二條這裡面公平交易經濟各方面的很多多層次傳教當然這個比較跟那個沒有關係這裡面"},{"start":7570.242,"end":7597.456,"text":"提供商品或服務從事交易事業亦不得為其足以影響交易自息之期望或顯示公平之行為所以網路交易啊現在就是你的法要以時俱進就是法沒有以時俱進你才會限收在你剛剛講的"},{"start":7599.824,"end":7628.339,"text":"你不能說以此形式第一個現在最忙的是警政署警察人員打詐司法好像跟你沒有關係這個就是錯誤的所以你要去分析整個台灣成為詐騙的這個一個國家你要去分析哪些應該是"},{"start":7630.45,"end":7651.984,"text":"屬於公平交易委員會這個公平交易法沒有以時計進你不要到刑事了之後才那前面的防範很重要交易它是交易喔網路交易是交易這個都是都是"},{"start":7661.874,"end":7690.241,"text":"冒充或依附或是不時促銷手段隱匿重要交易資訊我們看這個公平交易法106年6月14號修正到現在7年6個月而這7年來各式各樣的網路交易"},{"start":7691.483,"end":7719.145,"text":"當初106年以前你可以了解吧副主委106年以前網路交易是非常少啊106年之後尤其是這幾年對不對所以你要去就現行的這麼多的個案而不是全部推託給這個警察單位然後這個"},{"start":7721.297,"end":7742.472,"text":"相關的這些司法機關那個都是已經後面的前面的怎麼去防範非常非常的重要我跟委員補充一下那個其實我們並不是說事前的東西都不做了我們也是行政院打詐團隊的一個一份子所以對於事詐打詐這一塊我們也是積極在做那我非常同意委員所談到的與時俱進"},{"start":7743.353,"end":7743.373,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":7772.513,"end":7773.864,"text":"下位諮詢請李玉玲委員"},{"start":7785.852,"end":7807.745,"text":"謝謝主席 現在請陳志民被提名人請陳志民被提名人委員早是 副主委最近我們很多的多層次媒體傳銷這個部分都被我們民眾認為是個吸金詐騙這事情越來越多所以現在我們在這個制度上面我們是行使了這個報備制"},{"start":7809.906,"end":7810.627,"text":"請問副主委您的態度你認為要改成許可制嗎?"},{"start":7824.38,"end":7841.692,"text":"你支持許可制嗎?我想個人制度都可以考慮了但是因為像多層次傳銷基本本質上是一個私人的商業行為之間所以原則上從一個自由經濟體的制度來講的話我們會覺得說盡可能不要過度的介入當然不是過度介入是表示都不管"},{"start":7844.513,"end":7850.976,"text":"徐克制基本上通常是在比較例外這個產業比較有特殊性質徐克制徐克制徐克制徐克制徐克制徐克"},{"start":7865.563,"end":7865.803,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7882.652,"end":7898.916,"text":"談判有這麼多年之後一直被詐騙阿很多的媒體的廣告宣傳你們要每一篇每一篇去看嗎?用報備你有去看嗎?在報備制度底下只要報備文件進來會內一定會詳細去看阿那報備制也不是說你詳細去看主委在我們113年到現在11月底阿我們這個有多層次傳銷有來報備的384家將近這5年時間有119家違法的案例"},{"start":7912.624,"end":7927.296,"text":"違法的案例你們怎麼說據我了解大部分違法的案例都是沒有來報備或是變更沒有來變更所以大部分是那個程序上他沒有去服務所以你抓到的違法的案例有報備的你才抓得到沒有報備的你抓不到嗎"},{"start":7928.37,"end":7928.53,"text":"副主任委員"},{"start":7943.51,"end":7956.94,"text":"所以我們也是進行本席支持許可制的為什麼要用許可制我們政府出面來做一些多層次傳銷的工作可以讓我們政府進行管理讓一些不肖人士對這個傳銷知名來行詐騙民眾讓很多民眾都苦不堪言那到現在都很痛苦這件事情可以去限縮他一些必須準備好的資料跟他們傳銷、傳播、宣傳的內容你們才可以去做一個"},{"start":7973.913,"end":7990.744,"text":"審核跟管理可以嗎這一點我們在報備制的精神底下只要業者東西進來如果我們覺得不足我們都還是會要求他說明等等那另外詐騙基本上形式我們也會跟法務部、調查局你只有叫他們說明有沒有推薦的沒有吧"},{"start":7991.344,"end":8006.301,"text":"報備你只是善意的這樣宣傳不可以而已啊你有沒有禁止他所以現在很多像保養的這個食品或者保養的化妝品之類的你們都是屬於這個沒有去高度去管理"},{"start":8007.807,"end":8034.173,"text":"依照我們多生事專家管理辦法他們送進來的東西我們就按照那個法律的規定來做實質的審查實質的這個你說報備你有實質審查你不是報備嗎就是送進來的東西我們要去看嘛到底你報備的東西那你看了結果你的處理方式呢你怎麼管理管理就是進來的話如果符合這個東西然後符合我們的要求當然這個就算報備完成嘛那如果事後他有該報備不報備或是說報備內容不實等等才不報備了你們加強會怎麼樣做呢"},{"start":8035.034,"end":8036.778,"text":"加強 我們當然就是業務單位不報備又違法又詐騙呢會處罰 因為對 會比較高嗎"},{"start":8044.332,"end":8048.795,"text":"所以我還是建議啦我們可以採用許可制那我們可以由政府來嚴加管理那我們這個整個傳銷的這個事業用合法性跟合理性來做一個管理讓他們的整個規模不要有個模糊地帶他們很多的宣傳你們看到都是很多模糊的地方所以我們希望我們對這個民眾的保障民眾我們對合法的產業要做一個保障"},{"start":8073.49,"end":8090.213,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":8092.038,"end":8112.375,"text":"副主委提名人你身兼公平會的發言人在這一次審查烏貝爾跟這個普遍達的合併案的整個過程當中你認為最大的挑戰是什麼那對於大眾的一個溝通是否還有改進的空間請做說明"},{"start":8113.895,"end":8114.515,"text":"不要讓外界有挑戰"},{"start":8129.941,"end":8147.87,"text":"外界有誤解或挑戰不要讓外界亂好請繼續那在委員會討論過程當中我想針對這案子委員都高度重視所以那個討論是非常充分的討論非常的充分那對於大眾的溝通呢大眾的溝通我想你認為在整個過程當中因為這一段時間半年人民很恐慌"},{"start":8148.71,"end":8162.562,"text":"大家都在期待你的答案是什麼又來一個延長當然你依法但是你認為讓民眾有所恐慌的時候是否你們在對大眾的一個溝通有改進有增長的空間"},{"start":8163.328,"end":8185.561,"text":"是 因為我是來公平會的發言人所以這個還有地方要學習不過從這個案子的確我也看到就是說有些社會大眾普遍矚目的案子的確在必要的時候可能開一個記者會公開對大家講非常好你願意這麼說讓民眾不恐慌這也是公平會很重要的角色我也一併請秘書長請秘書長 主席國民書長 謝謝"},{"start":8192.062,"end":8198.867,"text":"董事長剛剛李美主委也是提名人她也說了我們這一次在25號的這個不同意併購讓大家鬆了一口氣那在這樣的情況之下我們接續還要讓人民好生活也就要請教處理外送平台的議題和併案議題之後"},{"start":8213.519,"end":8225.279,"text":"解采旦了但是以專業跟產業發展的權益保障的角度來看呢你會不會支持立法來這個外送員的產業相關的專法"},{"start":8228.459,"end":8242.206,"text":"因為他現在牽涉到的包括是除了平台之外有店家還有消費者本席請教是針對外送員的相關專法對因為他環環相扣勞動部已經開始他同意我們也給他們時間他們在研擬我們也提案請教因為必須要整合必須要整合"},{"start":8253.232,"end":8255.234,"text":"我們可能還是要尊重主管機關的權限"},{"start":8272.57,"end":8297.6,"text":"跟委員報告有一個不管是專法也好或專章也好有一個針對這個特殊性的它的確是真的是比較特殊跟其他的都不太一樣那我們同意這個特殊性來立怎麼樣的一個形式上好 非常好同意特殊性的怎麼樣協助人民這是政府的責任嗎非常好我聽到行政院秘書長你的立場我也要聽提名人你的立場"},{"start":8299.281,"end":8314.187,"text":"也就是說制定專法可能這是主管機關他的權限原則上我們都尊重那等到這個專法假設出來以後本會會從本會的職場的機關的角度來提供一些這個法案的建議我也歡喜聽到秘書長剛才所說因為這個專法也必須橫向的部會跨部會來協調我也聽到以上三位剛剛包括剛剛李美珠的都"},{"start":8325.111,"end":8337.945,"text":"同意以人民的權益為基準在我們的外送員的設置產業專法那我很感謝我們繼續加油所以本期要請教在你的簡歷當中我請民事長站一下因為這個也要跨部會"},{"start":8341.849,"end":8346.111,"text":"在你的簡歷當中你對於產業政策跟競爭政策的融合難度你強調未來應該要強化跨部會的協調所以請問你目前你目前認為我們在執行的過程當中你的難處是什麼你又有什麼樣的方案可以建議給我們你後面的行政院的秘書長來協助跨部會的一個協調"},{"start":8369.821,"end":8370.061,"text":"副主任委員"},{"start":8389.306,"end":8405.148,"text":"立委在召開一些法條制定的時候有些特別的專法那在這個過程當中是不是跟公平交易法會有一些抵觸我都會在這個場合裡面去表達公平會的立場所以表示我們現在目前在執行的確是有跨部會必須要"},{"start":8406.189,"end":8426.938,"text":"再合作再協調的空間秘書長我請秘書長秘書長您聽到因為他是這個公立單位中立單位所以很重要的必須要有政府跨部會來協助你會協助吧萬一你會協助所以因此我也要特別強調請秘書長也要協助"},{"start":8430.419,"end":8451.555,"text":"他們目前執行讓人民這麼多的質疑也就是在整個跨部會裡頭他還是有增長協調的空間那你必須要來協助對不對好你點頭所以我要勉勵我們的提議人因為與時俱進的我們現在台灣要怎麼樣去因應數位化的時代變遷這個"},{"start":8453.997,"end":8454.157,"text":"委員長 請回座"},{"start":8471.461,"end":8493.164,"text":"我們會持續進進因為已經有個數位白皮書我們會在那個基礎底下持續的看國際間的發展來做一些調整那剛委員提到了我們都會密切注意這個也就是說國際間這麼做政府也在這麼做最後仲裁的單位他是獨立單位必須我們自己必須要有這樣子的一個條件"},{"start":8494.105,"end":8494.125,"text":"委員長"},{"start":8521.855,"end":8541.58,"text":"審判會、審判會、審判會不在、宗教兵、宗教兵、宗教兵不在本期的諮詢改成書面登記發言委員處不在場之外,其議均已發言完畢,我們訓課結束,現在請陳志民被提名的人先起先離席,好,謝謝我們現在休息,我們下午2點繼續開會"},{"start":8823.848,"end":8824.889,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":8891.203,"end":8893.422,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":9924.65,"end":9925.742,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":10654.735,"end":10656.408,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":11209.497,"end":11211.305,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":11449.804,"end":11451.152,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":11618.831,"end":11619.889,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":12343.097,"end":12344.326,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":12690.12,"end":12690.181,"text":"本集完"},{"start":13862.322,"end":13862.382,"text":"本集完"},{"start":14590.957,"end":14591.019,"text":"本集完"},{"start":14828.524,"end":14830.179,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":16042.032,"end":16042.092,"text":"本集完"},{"start":16318.916,"end":16320.111,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":16739.957,"end":16743.49,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":17089.019,"end":17090.316,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":17956.613,"end":17957.807,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":18226.988,"end":18227.688,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":18688.684,"end":18688.786,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":18921.698,"end":18923.37,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":19333.302,"end":19334.718,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":19542.972,"end":19550.279,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":19711.374,"end":19713.131,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":19726.304,"end":19743.816,"text":"好 我們繼續開會首先我還是介紹一下行政院今天下午初期的行政院秘書長 龔明欣以及第一位我們審查被提名人 洪財隆先生 謝謝首先請行政院秘書長 龔明欣做說明"},{"start":19751.947,"end":19765.058,"text":"謝謝主席。各位委員,被提名的洪財隆先生是現任的公平會委員,他的專長是在經濟議題方面,尤其是在產業分析、行為經濟學、國際經濟關係等等。"},{"start":19768.727,"end":19783.806,"text":"他也曾經在臺灣經濟研究院擔任副研究員的職務還有四清大學也擔任過助理教授還有清華大學的社會研究所也是助理教授入委會的諮詢委員他也擔任過民進黨政策會的副執行長"},{"start":19788.53,"end":19814.993,"text":"然後在財文法人、新境界、文教基金會、擔任資深研究員等等的相關職務那我們認為他的這個專業跟學識或者是實務經驗學長巨優那敬請貴院支持同意那也敬請指教好好謝謝請任國民部長說明現在請公民會委員被提名陳慶堂先生說明"},{"start":19816.493,"end":19821.015,"text":"主席、秘書長、各位委員各位先請大家午安我是洪財隆是公民會新任委員很榮幸有這個場合跟機會來這邊接受大家的指教"},{"start":19845.7,"end":19862.617,"text":"那我的學經歷我想大家應該有稍微參閱那我曾經練過法律那練過經濟所以對政策的關懷是我一輩子的興趣那我自己個人的特質是我也有很強烈的社會關懷"},{"start":19863.778,"end":19874.646,"text":"所以無論在什麼樣一個位置上我通常很喜歡傾向把這個理論跟這個臺灣的現實世界做一個很深的連結我想這是我的一個特點那很榮幸來公民會服務我想這過去這幾年我有很深的體會就是說這是一個獨立合一的機關那需要法律跟財經跟外面的人才"},{"start":19891.338,"end":19912.826,"text":"我自己對這個機關的認識大概有三點第一個是它是一個擔任裁判市場競爭秩序裁判的一個角色大家知道它有一個規範的權利所以無論是外商、科技巨擘或是說一般的事業基本上對公平會的相關的一個辦法或是說一個處理原則"},{"start":19913.726,"end":19913.746,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":19934.591,"end":19934.691,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":19964.431,"end":19969.814,"text":"陳慶堂開門狗就是說在很多的事情特別是經濟產業在發展的時候比如說後來的數位平台、科技巨擘這些大的一些跨國的影響力跟市場力攬刮很多各地的資源的時候這時候公平會作為一個競爭法機關是應該扮演這個開門狗的角色大家知道開門狗我想不只是獄警"},{"start":19992.347,"end":19998.831,"text":"甚至他可以有適當的權力可以予以節制這是我想我自己對這個公民會經濟法機關這個獨立機關的一個看待然後至於我個人而言我相信就是說我對權力、知識跟勇氣這三個面向的思考我想這一輩子以來我想是相當深刻的"},{"start":20013.78,"end":20022.384,"text":"我想講的權利是當然我們公部門有一個power我剛剛講的規範的權利另外是知識我也相信經濟學方面的一個應用跟知識可以幫台灣社會很大的忙我們常常講說天下沒有白吃的午餐其實在很多政策領域只要我們細心的觀察我們就可以找到一些免費的跟白吃的午餐所以我想我過去這幾年在很多的個案的審理也好或是說"},{"start":20039.753,"end":20040.253,"text":"競爭政策判斷"},{"start":20070.013,"end":20090.348,"text":"這時候你提出你的意見的時候有時候大家知道我們會有從眾的行為那會有那個壓力那我覺得我對我自己的期許是有不怕尷尬的勇氣我想甚至有時候會因此會過度承擔那不過我想這個都一切都值得的這是我想先跟大家做這樣的一個分享謝謝"},{"start":20093.998,"end":20107.156,"text":"謝謝我們洪財隆被請言的說明也謝謝行政院國民黨說明我們現在進行詢答委員詢答之前主席做以下宣告委員發言時間聯席會委員4分鐘非聯席會委員3分鐘第一位委員請鐘嘉斌"},{"start":20121.277,"end":20129.982,"text":"主席在場的委員先進列席的包括被提名人、機關代表我想底下我們就請洪被提名人我來跟您做一個請教"},{"start":20137.819,"end":20155.442,"text":"洪委員你好,因為你是現任委員還是稱洪委員是,謝謝我了解你去年出了一本書叫做《隱藏的說客》,是嗎?是是的,好那請教一下公平會是何意志你剛剛有說了那請問你們在做出一個處分決定的時候會不會有類似大法官的部分同意意見書或不同意見書?"},{"start":20156.696,"end":20179.769,"text":"有,我們有這個會具名是哪位委員什麼意見的對,然後會隨案公布所以對於委員過去您既然是現任委員您的看法如何不只表達在你過去公平會的一些決定上你的同意或不同意見書也表達在你的書中隱藏的碎刻那我今天底下有三件事情要跟您就教就是第一是關於公平交易委員會"},{"start":20180.669,"end":20207.26,"text":"你對於這個機關屬性和他的目的的瞭解第二個呢我想透過最近一個事件就是Hupenda跟UberEat公平會做出了決定那這個決定在反映出你們公平會對自我任務跟機關角色的認知第三個最近我們看到立法院有很多很多挾國會多數提出的法案讓我們都為之瞠目結舌比如說那麼有包括了所謂的不中斷"},{"start":20208.14,"end":20208.3,"text":"我知道"},{"start":20234.861,"end":20256.15,"text":"那請問公平會目前有這樣的規定嗎?有有那目前有委有立法院有提出修法要把這個規定改掉讓跟NCC一樣就是新任委員沒產生之前就任委員到任後就下任那你認為以公平會的角色來講如果比照NCC這樣做會對公平會的獨立機關的角色和你們運作的任務有什麼影響?"},{"start":20257.643,"end":20283.664,"text":"謝謝委員那個詮詢就第三個問題我的看法是當然我們希望一切這個提名當然就是說希望獲得貴院的這個同意跟贊同那讓那個獨立機關的運作不致中斷那另外是因為這兩個機關獨立機關它各有七位委員包括主委、副主委當然都是基數嘛就是說因為能夠做那如果有委員確認不能夠及時的補任那麼對於你們機關的運作會有影響嗎"},{"start":20287.622,"end":20288.404,"text":"目前你們還是有不中斷條款嗎?"},{"start":20292.506,"end":20315.936,"text":"那沒有錯就是說這個目前公民會的這個組織法那當然是說這個共伴委員這個出席那如果說只剩4名委員還可以做出一個公民會應有的職權行使嗎目前目前怎麼會目前人事總局的這個解釋是如此是可以的那萬一未來你們的不中斷條款被修改了那麼只剩下不全額的委員能夠運作嗎"},{"start":20318.418,"end":20330.313,"text":"按照目前的那個規定我未來如果比照NCC不中斷條款拿掉了那有委員缺額的時候能運作嗎事實上會做很大的影響那不能運作會有什麼影響"},{"start":20332.026,"end":20359.253,"text":"基本上很多的這個決定都可能無法作演很好那對於我們目前公平會回到第一個題目公平會的機關使命是什麼?任務是什麼?我想最重要的是那個促進市場有效競爭就是所謂的教育秩序另外是消費者的權益記得我看過你隱藏的說客這本書那請問一下在FuPenta跟UberEat的這個決定上假如因為現在因為公平會因為確認不能夠做出決定"},{"start":20359.873,"end":20383.815,"text":"那你覺得以這個個案來講假設的情況會出現什麼影響這個合併案實施不能做決定會有什麼影響我相信那個還是可能會通過直說他的正當性恐怕有所不足如果因為你們的不中斷條款被比照NC改掉了那麼你們在確認的情況之下做出的重大的處分案會讓申請"},{"start":20387.147,"end":20412.936,"text":"要求的有質疑質疑你們正常性那你覺得現在外界有對你們之前所做出的福佩奈跟烏柏易的這樣的一個裁定有不同意見嗎比較少你認為社會上接受你們基於市場的公平教育為了保護消費者為了保護餐廳為了保護外送員你們做出的決定你是認為得到支持的我相信絕大部分是支持的好那我想也很清楚了今天本席之會對你提出詢問"},{"start":20413.996,"end":20438.39,"text":"主要是說要確認你們原任委員對於NCC的機關使命跟任務和他對社會的作用跟影響很清楚的了解也了解到對於你們剛作出處分的案件他們社會上的認知是如何評價為何最重要即將要登場的修法對會會會產生什麼影響我們未來的被提名人如果擔任委員應該要有足夠的心理準備有嗎有"},{"start":20439.671,"end":20451.195,"text":"好,那我們希望呢,你能夠順利的通過提名審查,也希望未來NCC,不對,應該說是公平會,能夠繼續的耽誤它的使命,為了社會,我們公平交易的秩序,能夠繼續運作。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。"},{"start":20466.493,"end":20468.957,"text":"謝謝主席 請被提名人 洪財隆委員"},{"start":20478.797,"end":20507.839,"text":"好委員好你好今天上午黃國昌委員針對在2022年7月公平會通過全聯併購大論發的時候有委員要求全聯每年要捐款贊助有關於體育跟棋藝他問了李美跟陳志民兩位被提名人他們兩位都說他們兩位從來沒有講過那我想請問在這個併購案裡面是不是你要求來贊助投資"},{"start":20510.421,"end":20513.323,"text":"我想請問,你是不是西洋旗協會的會員?"},{"start":20515.334,"end":20518.756,"text":"我沒有參加現體協會,但是我有參加活動你有參加活動,你是不是會員?我不是會員過去是不是會員?不是會員那請問一下公平會在審核一個兩大併購案的時候卻要求業者去贊助特定的活動或者協會,你認為適當嗎?"},{"start":20539.583,"end":20550.159,"text":"跟外會委員報告這樣子就說這個案子大家知道嗎你認為適當嗎適當的結果因為我時間非常有限我是說實在我心理上是同意這個這個合併案的"},{"start":20552.498,"end":20563.806,"text":"但是你不管你同不同意但是要求在這個併貨案的過程裡面要求來做這個捐款等於是一個募款這是極不適當的行為好另外因為你是續任的委員那麼在2017年跟2018年公平會有一個世紀大案就是高通當時在前一年"},{"start":20577.896,"end":20595.501,"text":"公平會罰高通234億元但是到第二年在高通的一個要求下公平會跟他和解成功最後放水只罰了27億元那這個案子"},{"start":20596.201,"end":20600.884,"text":"當時引起業界嘩然而且是全世界首見我請問你當時主張和解嗎是你主張和解因為你是唯一當時時任的另外當時監察院調查這件案子而且還糾正了公平會可是公平會悍然拒絕提供當時的和解錄音檔也使得當時的業者沒有辦法向高通來求償"},{"start":20626.202,"end":20641.816,"text":"請問一下你同意公平會當時的黑箱作業嗎?報告後來這個事情最後還是有提供錄音檔當時後來沒有提供的時候你是主張的嗎?你是主張不提供的嗎?最後我是主張提供"},{"start":20642.526,"end":20642.926,"text":"目前已經超過14億美元,謝謝"},{"start":20664.514,"end":20674.623,"text":"目前多少?已經超過在2022年年底已經超過14億美元到2022年才開始投資嗎?不是已經我們有5年的專案所以從2018開始到2023結束好我這個"},{"start":20679.868,"end":20685.195,"text":"講了這麼多就是有關高通的案子因為當時呢你親記過關因為當時在立法院的整個結構之下好像沒有什麼人在關心這個案子一個全世界獨家然後傷害我們台灣產業的一個案子"},{"start":20698.249,"end":20717.275,"text":"從234億變成27億和解而且竟然還拒絕提供監察院相關的錄音帶我覺得這都是極不適任的因為這次你是應該唯一續任因為原來的郭淑珍委員她這次也沒有再續任我覺得這件事情必須在這一次續任案裡面然後讓大家全面的來檢視以及檢討以上謝謝"},{"start":20722.242,"end":20748.033,"text":"下一位陳寧菲、陳寧菲、陳寧菲不在、張家俊、張家俊、張家俊不在、洪孟凱、洪孟凱、洪孟凱不在、洪國昌、洪國昌、洪國昌、洪國昌不在登記發言委員處部在場之外,區議均已發言完畢,訓導結束。現在請洪財隆被提名先離席。我們休息3分鐘,必要時延長2分鐘"},{"start":20933.221,"end":20947.802,"text":"現在繼續開會這個下午第二場是我們公民會委員會提名人陳進昌先生的審查會那首先請行政院院長先請公民心院長先做說明"},{"start":20954.271,"end":20964.635,"text":"謝謝主席。向主席跟各位委員報告,林慶堂被提名人,他目前現任於公平會服務業競爭處處長。他的專長在經濟及法律議題上,尤其在產業經濟及公平交易法上,學有專長。"},{"start":20975.378,"end":20990.026,"text":"他曾經擔任過公研院的副研究員,之後幾乎都在公平會他當過公平會的專員、視察科長、專門委員、第三處副處長、公平會公平競爭處副處長"},{"start":20991.887,"end":21007.014,"text":"秘書處主任等職務在公平會已經三十幾年了所以他的專業、學識和實務經驗事實上都非常優秀敬請貴院來支持以上報告"},{"start":21020.646,"end":21035.262,"text":"主席、各位在場的先進、午安我是林慶堂很榮幸承蒙行政院長提名今天才有這個機會在這裡接受各位的指教我的職長生涯就成如剛剛秘書長所說的我在公民研究服務超過30年了"},{"start":21036.414,"end":21063.356,"text":"那我在公民會歷經4個業務單位對公民會執法的執掌的公民交易法跟端倫傳銷都有相當的執法經驗那我簡要說明一下我過往的執法經驗首先我在近5年擔任處長的期間對公民交易法有關聯合行為的部分我們共處分了16件違法的聯合行為我舉例說明包括中華電信與台灣大哥大共同合意取消電信支費的優惠方案那另外也包括航空、產險"},{"start":21065.902,"end":21077.483,"text":"建築專業鑑定醫療服務等業者的違法聯合行為至於受社會矚目的重大結案件的審查上﹐包括近期受各界矚目的烏貝爾跟忽貝納的結案"},{"start":21078.098,"end":21099.985,"text":"還有之前的錢櫃跟好樂迪的結案我們公平會都是予以禁止這是在我任內完成的那另外針對大型流動事業全能跟大倫巴還有家樂福跟惠康還有兩大兩小的電信業者的事件水平結案件有分別以附加負擔的方式來確保整體經濟利益那其他還有一些處分案件"},{"start":21100.972,"end":21128.007,"text":"這裡就不再贅述那其次我在擔任科長的4年期間特別針對惡性重大的變質多元傳銷予以強力的查處總計罰款查處了17件變質多元傳銷那這類的案件往往受害人數超過萬人那不法利益動輒高達數億元常導致受害者家庭破碎甚至引起社會問題那本會都是予以重罰與移送檢查機關追究刑事責任"},{"start":21129.264,"end":21158.435,"text":"那以上我的執法經驗讓我對未來的工作深具信心至於我對於擔任公平會委員職務的看法我認為在現行新興科技衍生的各類新型態的商業模式下特別是在當前的數位經濟時代下業者常常運用平台、演算法、人工智慧、大數據等工具從事競爭使得市場競爭變得更多元且複雜與交錯那公平會在個案的競爭評估上也因此面臨了多邊市場"},{"start":21159.255,"end":21175.206,"text":"．建界網路效應等這些課題．這些課題都會影響到執法上的判斷．所以公平委員在面對科技驅動商業模式的快速發展下．執法的思維也應該與時俱進．經由關注國際間競爭法的執法動態．深化國內的產業調查．加強產業對話．傾聽外界的建言．發掘市場潛在的競爭疑慮．來規劃調適執法的政策．才能夠確實進行"},{"start":21189.615,"end":21209.889,"text":"維護市場交易秩序的職責本人如果謀大願同意擔任公平會委員自當克盡職守堅守專業公正客觀依法獨立行使職權的立場做好維護市場競爭秩序的守護者的角色以上是我的報告進行指教謝謝好謝謝公平會委員被提名陳議長先生的說明"},{"start":21211.243,"end":21224.811,"text":"我們現在進行詢答委員先生之前主席做以下宣告每位委員發言時間聯席會委員4分鐘非聯席會委員3分鐘第一位請鍾嘉賓委員發言OK好"},{"start":21227.591,"end":21247.207,"text":"陳婷菲、陳婷菲、陳婷菲不在登記發言委員除不在場之外﹐其餘均已發言完畢﹐詢答結束委員﹐邱毅英﹐吳思瑤﹐鍾家斌﹐邱志偉﹐張家俊﹐沈華慧﹐所提順便質詢列入紀錄﹐刊登紅包現在請被提名人先離席"},{"start":21252.743,"end":21275.899,"text":"報告聯席 報告聯席會本日針對4位被提名相關事項審查均以審查完略作以下決議行政院函送提名公平交易委員會委員名單．李鎂續任委員並為主任委員．陳志民續任委員並為副主任委員．洪財隆續任委員．林慶堂為委員．請同意案審查完略"},{"start":21278.808,"end":21287.763,"text":"審查報告提報院會公決 院會討論時由召集委員邱志偉做補充說明本日議程出去完畢 謝謝大家 現在散會"},{"start":21340.316,"end":21341.323,"text":"響鐘"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}