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:"三位時間的關係不一一問候我一直很關心我們退休警消他們的所得替代我們立法院三讀通過的法律三讀通過的法律台灣是個法治國家就已經生效了這些員警這些消防員他們公法上面的金錢債權對國家的公法上面金錢請求權都已經發生了所以我之前在48法治委員會"},{"start":55.082,"end":75.435,"text":"我有問考試院學區部的我問他說在法律三讀通過了以後三讀通過了以後申請退休的同仁他們是不是應該要依照新法來計算從法律上面應該要依照新法來計算沒有錯嗎"},{"start":79.756,"end":105.172,"text":"報告委員 就是今年114年的4月27日修改通過嘛是對 那我們原則上就是新退的同仁就是這個時間點退的同仁我們其實已經就用新法審批好 來看齁我那天問得很具體我說齁新法通過以後退的同仁你們給他的函有依照新法計算的選序部部長施念職也跟我說有"},{"start":106.601,"end":131.184,"text":"但問題是我接到的陳情就不是這樣而且這個陳情就是直接從我們立法院來的看一下為了各自的保護我把相關人的人名全部都貼出來了這個是玄敘部的函玄敘部的函全部都是按照舊法再計算那顯然部長那天跟我講的是隨便亂講"},{"start":132.631,"end":152.131,"text":"上面全部都是按照舊法在計算退休金審定的所得替代率到底是多少按照退伏法審定114年度退休的所得替代率完全都是按照舊法計算請問一下選區部這是怎麼回事"},{"start":154.168,"end":169.174,"text":"報告委員這個是在您下面這個框框有一個替代率上限是對依照警察人員是條例對這是我們剛開始法案通過的時候對那後來我們有再修正就把它放到它是今年7月還是8月退的"},{"start":171.055,"end":189.244,"text":"我現在貼的上面的這一位啊這個是新法修正以後啊就他的生肖日是在114年的4月27號實行之後的新的退休案是啊那所以不是應該依照新法修就應該要依照新法發函給他"},{"start":190.802,"end":209.534,"text":"因為這個沈定涵的這個沈定涵的行政處分就攸關他接下來對於國家公法上面債權的行使啊你們還是按照舊法去算給人家所以人家才會來申訴嘛但是你們什麼後面啊 來來來後面你們多了一個備註"},{"start":211.985,"end":220.254,"text":"備註依照警察人員人事條例35條依照按退休審定的總年資依照憲法應該是72.625但你們給他的是63.75這個就是新舊法之間的差別"},{"start":229.967,"end":250.956,"text":"新法生效的法律你把它塞到備註裡面但是還是要是該條例的主管機關內政部確定相關作業事項後再依規定辦理那我就看不懂啦立法院三讀通過的法律考試院給他的是依照舊法"},{"start":251.84,"end":268.346,"text":"然後依照舊法裡面說那什麼時候可以按照新法要等到該條例的主管機關內政部確定相關作業事項後再依規定辦理嗎那請問主管機關內政部相關事項要確定還要多久"},{"start":272.71,"end":297.176,"text":"報告委員是這樣子我們跟全序部開過五次的會議我知道那現在配合那個做的前置作業就是退休警察人員名冊的清查工作是我們的校隊在九月的時候完成校隊是但是全序部它有一個系統廠商的一個傳媒部分那也就是說在行政作業上可能有出現這樣時間差的差別是那我們要請全序部再對您做說明"},{"start":297.956,"end":319.098,"text":"所以你現在提求第一個回去給選舉部我剛剛跟你講的部分就是第一個我們內政部跟選舉部有五次的開會我相信我要講的問題的point剛剛說的非常清楚了請選舉部回去告訴部長這件事然後再書面回覆我這到底是怎麼回事"},{"start":319.827,"end":346.214,"text":"跟他在事後法治委員會回覆我的完全不一樣你們現在發函給我們的警察同仁說要等到內政部確定相關作業事項後再依規定辦理但是今天部長在上面回答你也聽到了相關的作業要巡視部處理不關內政部的事巡視部回去用書面回覆我好嗎因為我時間到我後面還有其他的問題可以嗎可以"},{"start":349.887,"end":369.429,"text":"下個禮拜一個禮拜之內書面回覆我到底是怎麼回事第二個對這個警察同仁來講他今天或者是其他相同處遇的警察同仁來講他們看了今天的這場質詢收到這個函的同仁心裡面大概會有非常多疑惑到底是要等內政部還是要等選區部"},{"start":370.687,"end":395.354,"text":"韓尚說要等內政部但是今天部長說要等玄虛部你們統一口徑以後統一口徑以後跟這一些新法生效以後退休的統人說明清楚我希望能夠做到這件事情可以嗎一個禮拜之內回覆我可以跟委員補充報告一下嗎不是啊你現在占我的時間我有你一個禮拜之內又順便回覆我可以嗎"},{"start":397.743,"end":419.095,"text":"可以嗎 第二個不好意思我很快把它做完去年發生職場霸凌的時候內政部說要落實健康友善職場環境 杜絕職場霸凌次長馬四元表示公務員很重要所以應該可以杜絕職場霸凌事件的發生等等等等這個是內政部發的函"},{"start":420.416,"end":446.313,"text":"但一樣我接到的投訴啊來自於警察因為你們說警察內政部警政署說你們在113年12月27號等等等等就有署部會議職場霸凌的觀念警察機關職場霸凌的觀念宣傳都很會做來我們接下來來看在會議上賴群組公開羞辱責難貶低聲譽符不符合警政署認定的職場霸凌"},{"start":448.476,"end":450.077,"text":"服不服來請署長這個算不算職場霸凌這個看他有沒有持續性的一個狀況長期刁難工作無理要求好來來來我繼續啊來給你看結果我們有個駐外的警官"},{"start":468.72,"end":491.673,"text":"在刑事警察局發生職場霸凌他跟警政署申訴警政署丟回去給刑事警察局進行調查一週內完成調查沒有給他說明的機會更扯的事情是被申訴的人還知道申訴的內容私下去接觸相關的證人被申訴的人可以知道申訴的內容私下去接觸相關證人嗎"},{"start":495.25,"end":509.48,"text":"可以這樣做嗎事實的部分是不是真的這個樣子有白紙黑字牽涉到事實認定現在我處理的是規範層面的問題態度的問題可以這樣做嗎這是正當的調查程序嗎是嗎來請署長"},{"start":513.882,"end":529.134,"text":"那這個案就是由刑事局的一個主管機關來做一個調查那剛委所提的這個是不是有沒有這一項這些違反這些調查程序我們會再來瞭解沒有啦 是不是有事事實認定但我現在要的是態度問題"},{"start":530.342,"end":553.647,"text":"被申訴的人知道申訴的內容私下接觸相關證人這件事情是符合你們現在在處理職場霸凌的態度跟原則嗎是還是不是沒有這樣子所以沒有這樣子嘛非常好我要的就是這種原則性的你說不應該現實上是不是有發生對所以我們要去認定因為原則很重要我不要哪一天你跟我改口啊"},{"start":555.8,"end":576.758,"text":"說 讓被申訴的長官知道 讓他私下去接觸證人這件事情很正常好 第二個你們有沒有把案件 應不應該把案件登錄於職場霸凌通報平台應不應該召開由外部專家所組成的評議小組 應不應該都應該嘛那現實上如果沒有的話 誰要負責任"},{"start":580.444,"end":608.275,"text":"那主官要負責任啊 主官要負責任 非常的好我今天公開跟署長講這件事情來找我投訴的人 密密麻麻的資料大一大疊我看的是村部結舌啊我們的內政部警政署對社會宣告一套對我們所有的警察同仁宣告一套實際上面在執行的時候是另外一套持續性的霸凌"},{"start":609.912,"end":635.858,"text":"然後提出申訴了以後長官知道他跑去找證人我為什麼知道他跑去找證人人家來找我的時候那種空口說白話的我黃國昌是不會站在質詢台上面質詢的他連函都調出來了被申訴的人直接寫email直接寫email給相關的證人這就是email"},{"start":641.857,"end":668.025,"text":"可以這樣幹喔我話講到這裡就好來 署長回去了解這件事情在處理這個案子的時候有沒有違反我們的政府跟社會跟所有的警察同仁所提出來宣誓的處理原則需要多久我們來調查需要多久一個月來調查一個月來調查把這個把它弄起來需要這麼久喔"},{"start":670.124,"end":691.327,"text":"兩個禮拜好不好兩個禮拜以後調查清楚處理這個生疏案件我先講我的原則啊有理由沒理由我不會介入那個是相關權責機關的事情我處理的只有在處理的程序上有沒有違反規定跟你們對警察同仁宣誓的是不是一致"},{"start":692.165,"end":707.643,"text":"我在意的只有這件事情否則的話你們說一套做一套以後誰敢申訴啊嚇都嚇死了兩個禮拜之內書面給我回覆有必要的話來黨團說明可以嗎可以好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1024,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時17分）謝謝主席。麻煩有請內政部部長、警政署署長，以及銓敘部退輔司副司長。"],["張署長榮興：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：3位好，時間的關係，我就不一一問候。我一直都很關心退休警消的所得替代率，我們立法院三讀通過的法律，臺灣是個法治國家，三讀通過就已經生效了。這些員警、消防員公法上的金錢債權對國家公法上的金錢請求權都已經發生，所以我之前在司法及法制委員會有問過考試院銓敘部，我問：在法律三讀通過之後，申請退休的同仁是不是應該要依照新法來計算？從法律上面應該要依照新法來計算，沒有錯嘛！"],["高副司長玉燕：報告委員，新法今（114）年4月27日修正通過，原則上新退的同仁、就是這個時間點退的同仁，其實我們已經用新法來審定給他。"],["黃委員國昌：好，來看，我那天問得很具體，我說新法通過之後退的同仁，你們給他的函有依照新法來計算？銓敘部部長施能傑跟我說「有」，但問題是我接到的陳情就不是這樣，而且這個陳情是直接從我們立法院來的。看一下，為了保護個資我把相關的人名全部都貼住了，這個是銓敘部的函，全部都是按照舊法在計算，顯然部長那天跟我講的是隨便亂講，上面全部都是按照舊法在計算退休金。審定的所得替代率到底是多少？按照退輔法審定114年度退休的所得替代率完全都是按照舊法來計算，請問一下銓敘部這是怎麼回事？"],["高副司長玉燕：報告委員，你下面這個框框有一個替代率上限，依照警察人員人事條例，這是法案剛開始通過的時候，後來我們有再修正，就是把它放到……"],["黃委員國昌：他是今年7月還是8月退休的？"],["高副司長玉燕：哪一位？這一位？"],["黃委員國昌：我上面貼的這一位啊！這個是新法修正以後啊！"],["高副司長玉燕：它的生效日是在114年4月27日施行之後新的退休案。"],["黃委員國昌：是啊！所以不是應該要依照新法發函給他？因為這個審定函的行政處分，攸關他接下來對於國家公法上面的債權行使，你們的函還是按照舊法算給人家，所以人家才會來申訴嘛！但是你們後面多了一個備註，備註「依照警察人員人事條例第三十五條，應按退休審定總年資」，依照新法應該是72.625%嘛！但是你們給他的是63.75%，這個就是新舊法之間的差別，你把新生效的法律塞到備註裡面，但是還要視該條例的主管機關內政部確定相關作業事項後，再依規定辦理。那我就看不懂了，立法院三讀通過的法律，考試院給他的是依照舊法，然後依照舊法裡面還說什麼時候可以按照新法？「要等到該條例主管機關內政部確定相關作業事項後，再依規定辦理」，那請問主管機關內政部，相關事項確定還要多久？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，是這樣子，我們跟銓敘部召開過5次的會議。"],["黃委員國昌：我知道。"],["劉部長世芳：現在配合做的前置作業就是退休警察人員名冊的清查工作，我們的校對9月已經完成，但是銓敘部還有系統廠商的處理部分。"],["黃委員國昌：我瞭解。"],["劉部長世芳：也就是在行政作業上可能有出現這樣的時間差，這可能要請銓敘部再對您做說明。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你現在是把皮球踢回去給銓敘部？"],["劉部長世芳：不是，我剛跟你講的部分，第一個，內政部跟銓敘部召開過5次的會議，所有的審定名單已經在114年9月完成。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係啦！我相信我要講的問題的point剛剛已經說得非常清楚了，請銓敘部回去告訴部長這件事，然後再書面回復我，這到底是怎麼回事？這跟他在司法及法制委員會回復我的完全不一樣。你們現在發函給我們的警察同仁說「要等到內政部確定相關作業事項後，再依規定辦理」，但是今天部長在上面的回答你也聽到了，相關的作業要銓敘部處理，不關內政部的事，銓敘部回去用書面回復我好嗎？因為我的時間到了，我後面還有其他的問題，可以嗎？"],["高副司長玉燕：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：下個禮拜，一個禮拜之內書面回復我到底是怎麼回事？第二個，對這個警察同仁來講，或者是其他相同處遇的警察同仁來講，他們看了今天這場質詢，收到這個函的同仁心裡面大概會有非常多的疑惑，到底是要等內政部？還是要等銓敘部？函上說要等內政部，但是今天部長說要等銓敘部，你們統一口徑之後，再跟這些新法生效後退休的同仁說明清楚，我希望能夠做到這一件事情，可以嗎？一個禮拜之內回復我。"],["高副司長玉燕：是，可以跟委員補充報告一下嗎？"],["黃委員國昌：不是，你現在占我的時間，你一個禮拜內用書面回復我，可以嗎？"],["高副司長玉燕：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：可以嘛！不好意思，我很快把它說完。去年發生職場霸凌的時候，內政部說要落實健康友善職場環境、杜絕職場霸凌，次長馬士元表示「公務員很重要，所以應該可以杜絕職場霸凌事件的發生……」，這個是內政部發的函。但一樣，我接到了投訴來自於警察，因為內政部警察署說在113年12月27日……就有署務會議，宣傳警察機關職場霸凌的觀念都很會做。我們接下來看，在會議上用LINE群組公開羞辱責難、貶低聲譽，符不符合警政署認定的職場霸凌？符不符合？請署長，這個算不算職場霸凌？"],["張署長榮興：這個要看它有沒有持續性的狀況。"],["黃委員國昌：好，長期刁難工作，無理要求……"],["張署長榮興：有沒有持續性的。"],["黃委員國昌：好，我繼續給你看，結果有一個駐外的警官在刑事警察局發生職場霸凌，他跟警政署申訴，警政署丟回去給刑事警察局自行調查，一週內完成調查，沒有給他說明的機會。更扯的事情是被申訴的人還知道申訴的內容，私下去接觸相關的證人，被申訴的人可以知道申訴的內容，私下去接觸相關證人嗎？可以這樣做嗎？事實的部分是不是真的這個樣子，有白紙黑字牽涉到事實認定，現在我處理的是規範層面的問題、態度的問題，可以這樣做嗎？這是正當的調查程序嗎？是嗎？請署長。"],["張署長榮興：這個案是由刑事局的主管機關來做調查，至於剛剛委員所提的有沒有違反調查程序，我們會再來瞭解。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有啦！是不是有，這是事實認定，但我現在要的是態度問題，被申訴的人知道申訴的內容，私下接觸相關證人，這件事情是符合你們現在在處理職場霸凌的態度跟原則嗎？是還是不是？"],["張署長榮興：沒有，沒有這樣子，所以我們一定要瞭解。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有這樣子嘛！非常好！我要的就是這種原則性。"],["張署長榮興：是。"],["黃委員國昌：你說不應該，現實上是不是有發生？我們去認定。"],["張署長榮興：對，所以我們要來瞭解。"],["黃委員國昌：因為原則很重要啊！我不要哪一天你跟我改口說：讓被申訴的長官知道，讓他私下去接觸證人，這件事情很正常。"],["張署長榮興：這個是不可以的。"],["黃委員國昌：好，第二個，你們應不應該把案件登錄於職場霸凌通報平臺？應不應該召開由外部專家所組成的評議小組？應不應該？都應該嘛！"],["張署長榮興：這個照規定要的。"],["黃委員國昌：現實上如果沒有的話，誰要負責任？"],["張署長榮興：主官要負責任。"],["黃委員國昌：主官要負責任，非常地好。我今天公開跟署長講這件事情，來找我投訴的人，密密麻麻的資料帶一大疊，我看得是瞠目結舌啊！我們內政部警政署對社會宣告一套；對所有警察同仁宣告一套；實際上在執行的時候是另外一套，持續性地霸凌，然後提出申訴了以後，長官知道還跑去找證人，我為什麼知道他跑去找證人？因為人家來找我的時候，那種空口說白話的，我黃國昌是不會站在質詢臺上面質詢，他連函都調出來了，被申訴的人直接寫email給相關的證人，這就是email，可以這樣幹喔？我話講到這裡就好。","署長，回去瞭解這件事情，在處理這個案子的時候，有沒有違反政府對社會、對所有警察同仁所宣示的處理原則？需要多久？"],["張署長榮興：我們來調查。"],["黃委員國昌：需要多久？"],["張署長榮興：一個月來調查。"],["黃委員國昌：一個月來調查。"],["張署長榮興：把它弄清楚。"],["黃委員國昌：需要這麼久喔？兩個禮拜，好不好？"],["張署長榮興：好，兩個禮拜。"],["黃委員國昌：兩個禮拜以後調查清楚，處理這個申訴案件，我先講我的原則，有理由、沒理由我不會介入，那個是相關權責機關的事情。"],["張署長榮興：對。"],["黃委員國昌：我處理的只有在處理的程序上……"],["張署長榮興：有沒有違反規定。"],["黃委員國昌：有沒有違反規定，跟你們對警察同仁宣示的是不是一致，我在意的只有這件事情，否則的話，你們說一套做一套，以後誰敢申訴啊？嚇都嚇死了！兩個禮拜之內書面給我回復，有必要的話來黨團說明，可以嗎？"],["張署長榮興：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員。","接下來請陳冠廷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-5","speakers":["黃建賓","牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","黃捷","許宇甄","王美惠","張宏陸","李柏毅","麥玉珍","林德福","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","賴惠員","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","盧縣一","黃國昌","陳冠廷","邱志偉","高金素梅","林楚茵","王鴻薇","丁學忠","吳宗憲"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-16"],"gazette_id":"1148501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長、海洋委員會主任委員、內政部警政署署長、內政部消防署署長就「警察、消\n防、海巡、移民及空中勤務總隊人員危勞津貼及退休權益之保障」進行專題報告並備質詢，另請\n行政院人事行政總處、行政院主計總處、銓敘部派員列席備詢","agenda_id":"1148501_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}