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我們請主委主委我想我延續議員的質詢其實你剛剛講了一點讓大家很擔心的是說你要看強制的程度是什麼狀況請問這個標準誰定"},{"start":34.031,"end":53.906,"text":"这个我们在处理原则里面是依照一般人的生活经验合理的生活经验在这种情况底下消费者是难以抗拒的是啊他邀你进去然后开了一个商品让你试用然后你要离开的时候说你已经开了所以呢你要付费"},{"start":54.807,"end":81.048,"text":"那请问这有没有强制我们在一些案子不处分的案子其实我们处理过一些类似的案子但是因为就是那个程度我们在那些案子里面其实我们看到的就是说你讲的这个话其实主委你要很小心因为大家会很担心因为你所谓的强制与不强制要看程度那请问程度又谁在做决定然后呢今天我的感受"},{"start":82.179,"end":105.297,"text":"他已经强制我了把我拉进去然后开了这一瓶这已经是强制了我的感觉已经强制了那你还要说要看强制的程度所以这个要很小心因为我们一直说公平会要给人民是信心而且现在诈骗非常的多方式非常的多元"},{"start":106.278,"end":128.332,"text":"人民如何受到保障這才是重點所以主委我覺得今天這個議題是給你們一個提醒因為你一直強調說強制的程度那請問強制程度是誰在判定我人民的感受還是公平會在確定還是我還要再提告"},{"start":128.672,"end":153.323,"text":"沒有 我們公平會當然有責任要判斷只是說那個判斷的標準我們是以一般日常生活一般人的合理的經驗來判斷在這種情況底下但是我的內心已經覺得我已經被強制了可是你不是當事者啊你不是當事者所以我覺得這個部分 主委要給人民有信心感就是說當我遇到這個問題的時候我來公平會"},{"start":154.574,"end":179.886,"text":"去做申訴請求協助的時候我不是得到是冷冰冰的說法說我要看強制的程度我就是因為我自己有被強制的感覺我才要尋求幫助所以這個可能我們在整個接案或是未來在回應的部分都要很小心所以給主委這樣的一個提醒因為"},{"start":181.585,"end":203.769,"text":"當事者跟你們判斷者這個gap 這個落差這才是人民心裡的那一塊然後另外就是說我們一直在這一次風災的時候那地方的媒體也曾經報導過到底災害重建之後這些費用"},{"start":205.185,"end":220.415,"text":"因為大家知道我們台南的書店差不多都破了這個大概那麼比例之多然後大家再復原重建那請問這些已經經由媒體的報導"},{"start":222.117,"end":248.142,"text":"這個部分你們有去了解嗎報告委員我有責成業務單位去了解但是我們了解的重點還是說有沒有廠商利用這個機會在發災難財那有沒有進行特別是聯合烘台價格的部分因為你們去了解就會抑制他們這些動作你們沒有去主動了解他們會覺得沒有任何壓力所以你們現在了解的狀況呢"},{"start":252.403,"end":278.472,"text":"我们在持续观察,但是因为没有特别具体的个案,但是我们会去了解现在目前的市场的价格情况。你们主动了解,会把一些真的想要这么做的一些业者,阻掉他们的一些想法,保障我们这些灾民在灾后重建的一个状况。所以你们主动出击,主动了解,这是非常重要的。"},{"start":279.025,"end":297.026,"text":"所以我們再請公平會因為地方媒體有作帳的報導那民眾就會擔心那也確實我們有接受到有一些民眾的陳情說好像真的有類似的狀況所以你們可能動作要更大是我們會持續觀察後續還有很多"},{"start":299.529,"end":314.601,"text":"需要重建的个案这个是很直接的再拜托我们主委那还有我一直在追的公平交易法的修正草案在这个部分我一直都有提案"},{"start":315.402,"end":341.096,"text":"然後這個提案就是針對幾大重點事業結合申報的門檻然後擴大聯合行為的規範範疇修正行政調查的規定還有徵定判決書的登載於新聞電子報當中還有修正違法結合的行政責任規定強化不公平的競爭監管力度及效果"},{"start":341.996,"end":370.376,"text":"这是我的提案那我也一直期待说我们的公平会赶快把公平交易法的修正草案赶快送到立法院来那现在呢进度呢因为我们之前的法案是撤回现在我们在会里面已经有另外也是持续的成立一个修法小组那已经开过一两次会议了所以你们只有内部而已对内部在研理我们现在要研理的是说那个整个修法的内容有没有新增想要修的条文"},{"start":371.076,"end":398.314,"text":"那预计呢预计多久会从我们公平会送到行政院因为这个一定要到行政院对你们打算多久总是有一个时程表因为目前还在看看收集委员的意见好你们要预计要收集多久这个我很难在这边给委员一个具体的时间点因为委员有时候意见不太一致对啊那总是要定一个时间那一年两年如果"},{"start":399.295,"end":425.777,"text":"委員大家意見都不一致那所以我們公平交易法這個已經那麼久沒有修法的部分已經那麼久的一套你無法應付現在日新月異的整個所謂的聯合壟斷擴大這個聯合的申報甚至是事業體的合併現在是層出不窮啊"},{"start":426.758,"end":455.479,"text":"所以现在的状况已经不比以前了那到底要多久我想我们会尽快我不希望能够我个人也不会希望拖太久就像如同委员讲的这整个市场状况改变非常大那我是尽快极大不是很大是极大那当然因为是委员会制度委员的意见我必须要整合好那半年了这个会期有没有办法有可能看到你们送到行政院我不期待说你们送到立法院了"},{"start":456.664,"end":472.414,"text":"送到行政院好不好我們會盡量努力啦送到行政院讓院裡面去討論因為從院裡面討論應該還要一段時間可是如果你們公評會裡面都沒送出來根本就一直在我們自己內部裡面討論"},{"start":473.835,"end":488.72,"text":"我們永遠見不到天日當你行政院送出來之後那麼就會有一些討論的方向那還要一些公聽會可能到時候還要收集更多外部的力量所以這還要有時間"},{"start":490.16,"end":518.291,"text":"所以我期待在這個會期我們可以從公平會把我們公平交易法修法草案面對現在層出不窮的整個事業合併還有聯合壟斷甚至是我們需要把一些相對的資訊趕快公告在我們的網站當中這個部分都一定要修法啦現在我們的法裡面是舊的你無法應付到現在網路上的一個狀況"},{"start":519.671,"end":526.106,"text":"所以趕快在這個會期趕快送行政院然後再進行討論我們今天朝這個目標來做好 謝謝主委 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":118,"blocks":[["陳委員亭妃：（9時39分）謝謝主席。我們請主委。"],["主席（邱委員議瑩代）：請主委。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：委員早。"],["陳委員亭妃：主委，我想延續議瑩的質詢，其實你剛剛講了一點讓大家很擔心的是說要看強制的程度是什麼狀況，請問這個標準誰訂？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我們在處理原則裡面有，是依照一般人合理的生活經驗，在這種情況底下，消費者是難以抗拒的。"],["陳委員亭妃：是啊！他邀你進去，開了一個商品讓你試用，然後你要離開的時候說：「你已經開了，所以你要付費。」請問這有沒有強制？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我們在一些不處分的案子……其實我們處理過一些類似的案子，但就是因為那個程度，我們在那些案子裡面看到的就是……"],["陳委員亭妃：主委，你講這個話要很小心，因為大家會很擔心。因為你所謂的強制與不強制要看程度，那請問程度又是誰在作決定？今天我的感受是他已經強制我了，把我拉進去，然後開了這一瓶，這已經是強制了，我的感覺已經是強制了，那你還要說要看強制的程度，所以這個要很小心。因為我們一直說公平會要給人民的是信心，而且現在詐騙非常的多，方式非常的多元，人民如何受到保障？這才是重點！","所以主委，我覺得今天這個議題是給你們一個提醒，因為你一直強調強制的程度，請問強制程度是誰在判定？是人民的感受？還是公平會在確定？還是我還要再提告？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我們公平會當然有責任要判斷，只是那個判斷的標準是以一般日常生活、一般人的合理經驗來判斷在這種情況底下是不是已經達到……"],["陳委員亭妃：但是我的內心已經覺得我已經被強制了。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是，但是我們……那是個案的問題。"],["陳委員亭妃：可是你不是當事者啊！你不是當事者。所以我覺得這個部分，主委，要給人民有信心感，就是當我遇到這個問題的時候，我來公平會申訴請求協助的時候，我不是得到冷冰冰的說法，說要看強制的程度，我就是因為我自己有被強制的感覺，我才要尋求幫助。所以這個可能在整個接案，或是未來在回應的部分都要很小心，給主委這樣一個提醒。因為當事者跟你們判斷者之間的這個gap、這個落差，這才是人民心裡的那一塊。","另外，在這一次的風災，地方媒體也曾經報導過，到底災害重建之後的這些費用，因為大家知道臺南的屋頂差不多都飛走了，那個比例之多，大家都在復原重建。請問，這些已經經由媒體的報導，這個部分你們有去了解嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：跟委員報告，我有責成業務單位去了解，但是我們了解的重點還是在於有沒有廠商利用這個機會在發災難財，特別是聯合哄抬價格的部分。"],["陳委員亭妃：因為你們有去了解，就會抑制他們這些動作，你們沒有主動去了解，他們會覺得沒有任何壓力，所以你們現在了解的狀況如何？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我們在持續觀察，但是因為沒有特別具體的個案，但是我們會去了解目前市場的價格情況。"],["陳委員亭妃：你們主動了解，會阻掉一些真的想要這麼做的業者的想法，保障這些災民在災後重建的狀況，所以你們主動出擊、主動了解，這是非常重要的。因為地方媒體有做這樣的報導，那民眾就會擔心，也確實我們有接受到一些民眾的陳情說好像真的有類似的狀況，所以你們可能動作要更大。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是，我們會持續觀察，有個案的話我們會調查。"],["陳委員亭妃：後續還有很多需要重建的個案，這個是很直接的，再拜託主委。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：還有，我一直在追的公平交易法的修正草案，這個部分我一直都有提案，這個提案就是針對幾大重點，包含事業結合申報的門檻、擴大聯合行為的規範範疇、修正行政調查的規定、增訂判決書登載於新聞電子報當中，還有修正違法結合的行政責任規定以及強化不公平競爭的監管力度及效果，這是我的提案，我也一直期待公平會趕快把公平交易法的修正草案送到立法院來，現在的進度呢？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：因為我們之前的法案是撤回，現在我們在會裡面也是持續成立一個修法小組，已經開過一、兩次會議了。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以你們只有內部而已？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：對，內部在研擬，我們現在要研擬的是整個修法的內容有沒有新增想要修的條文，接下來……"],["陳委員亭妃：預計多久會從公平會送到行政院？因為這個一定要到行政院嘛！"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：你們打算要多久？總是有一個時程表嘛！"],["陳代理主任委員志民：因為目前還在蒐集委員的意見。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，你們預計要蒐集多久？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：這個我很難在這邊給委員一個具體的時間點，因為委員有時候意見不太一致，所以要討論。"],["陳委員亭妃：對啊！那總是要訂一個時間，一年、兩年？如果委員大家意見都不一致，那麼我們已經那麼久沒有修正的公平交易法，已經那麼久的一套法令無法應付現在日新月益的聯合壟斷、擴大結合的申報，甚至是事業體的合併，現在這些是層出不窮，所以現在的狀況已經不比以前了，那到底要多久？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我想我們會儘快……"],["陳委員亭妃：半年？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我個人也不希望拖太久，就如同委員講的，整個市場狀況改變非常大，我是希望儘快……"],["陳委員亭妃：是極大，不是很大。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是，但因為這個是委員會制度，委員的意見我必須要整合。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，那半年呢？這個會期有沒有辦法有可能看到你們送到行政院？我不期待你們送到立法院啦！送到行政院好不好？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我們會儘量努力啦！"],["陳委員亭妃：送到行政院讓院裡面去討論，因為院裡面討論應該還要一段時間，可是如果你們公平會都沒送出來，只有一直在自己內部裡面討論，我們永遠見不到天日，當你送到行政院之後就會有一些討論的方向，還要一些公聽會，可能到時候還要蒐集更多外部的力量，所以這還需要時間。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以我期待在這個會期公平交易法修法草案可以從公平會出來，面對現在層出不窮的事業合併，還有聯合壟斷，甚至你們需要把一些相對的資訊趕快公告在你們的網站當中，這個部分都一定要修法，現在我們的法裡面的規定是舊的，無法應付現在網路上的狀況，所以在這個會期趕快送行政院，然後再進行討論。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我們現在朝這個目標來做。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，謝謝主委。"],["主席（陳委員亭妃）：現在請張啓楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":112,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-4","speakers":["陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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