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院對於這些被凍起來沒有花的錢已經全部蓄勢待發今天解凍完畢明天趁年底12月31號一次把它全部執行完是這樣嗎"},{"start":2323.294,"end":2327.057,"text":"政府預算在年度將屆滿之前,我們預算如果解凍後應如何處理,那麼請機關代表說明,請。"},{"start":2343.786,"end":2368.132,"text":"首先我們感謝那個還是先跟大家指早安主席還有各位委員各位女士先大家早安那我們首先還是感謝大院過委員會安排本院報告本年度預算那個解凍案那今天的那個排程雖然說是排在12月30號但是本院還是會配合就是盡量執行這6個預算案"},{"start":2370.658,"end":2373.5,"text":"主席跟委員說明今天的議程有一個是我們行政法院組織法"},{"start":2391.736,"end":2417.771,"text":"由於過去委員會在對於前一年度對今年度所做的各種預算凍結案都設有解凍條件委員會必須在解凍條件滿足後我們才能排議程本日的議程原定的輪值召委是吳宗憲吳召委因爲他個人有些情況在上週電話跟本席商議"},{"start":2418.431,"end":2442.744,"text":"那麼希望本週的週一跟週四能夠跟我做對調用在下週的議程來做對調那麼由於事出突然所以跟委員說明那麼因為吳釗偉未及能在星期上週四之前將本週的議程排定那麼本席在上週五接續之後就緊急的就目前委員會上代處理的法案"},{"start":2443.164,"end":2443.444,"text":"我這邊指名由會計處處長來說明"},{"start":2472.765,"end":2493.481,"text":"那麼行政機關該年度的預算如果到像今天12月30號解凍之後不管是司法院還是其他行政機關那麼這些預算解凍案在處理上比如說明天後天明年未執行完畢者明年可否繼續執行請楊處長做說明"},{"start":2498.519,"end":2525.824,"text":"報告關於關於今年度的預算如果今年執行不了要到明年的話除非有有契約合約的部分才能夠繼續執行不然的話就可能就是去跌腳過酷所以說今天今天如果有因為今天有有6有5個是那個那個書面報告一個是那個金童義厚詞的東西所以說是在這部分的話我們"},{"start":2526.644,"end":2527.625,"text":"主席請教三個問題第一"},{"start":2547.145,"end":2564.824,"text":"如果說這一筆預算凍結之前已經有部分是可以執行的,那麼比如說採購案,它有的採購案因為預算凍結部分,它只能做部分的發包執行,後續凍結的部分以後續擴充採購來訂定條件。"},{"start":2566.866,"end":2582.066,"text":"那麼訂定條件的時候呢一旦條件滿足比如解凍了那麼後續擴充在契約上他就自然的進行後續擴充這是採購法上的規定是否有這樣的適用今天的盧列的各預算解凍案有沒有這個情況這是第一種情況"},{"start":2583.027,"end":2601.396,"text":"就是這個凍結的部分預算在先前已經就可支用的部分先進行發包採購但是設有條件的後續擴充如果今天解凍了就滿足了後續擴充的條件該標案就可以繼續依金額來執行這第一種"},{"start":2602.469,"end":2626.156,"text":"第二種,就是因為來不及做招標採購的作業,或者說將執行的事務已經屆期過了,沒有執行的必要了,那就您說的就是結繳國庫。第三,因為人未能執行者任有必要的時候,要做預算保留,保留的程序為何,明年可不可以視同意保留後繼續滋用,這三種情況跟今天的個案請針對說明。"},{"start":2629.486,"end":2646.697,"text":"如果那個契約裡面已經有擴充的話那如果今天的部分有沒有主席這邊講的這三種情況那你們一個一個案子說明有哪一個案子什麼情況後續怎麼處理哪一個案子什麼情況後續怎麼處理請說明"},{"start":2649.83,"end":2677.246,"text":"那個那個電腦字電腦字因為那個那個有金銅一號石的東西的部分就是那個電電腦電電腦的部分電腦的部分這可能我要查一下那個我們整個整個契約訂定訂定的的情形是什麼樣我們我們如果如果查就是依照整個合約來來去辦理另外的話如果如果還沒有還因為今年"},{"start":2678.166,"end":2682.429,"text":"目前我們在進行的是報告事項的第三案至第七案那這三到七案呢他是一個查照案是"},{"start":2697.219,"end":2723.407,"text":"就已經解凍就查照了就是我們就照收了那麼可能呢剛剛所垂詢的問題呢跟剛剛處長所說的是在討論事項的一、二的第一案第一案的內容就是第四款第一項的決議一的預算凍結的書面報告才會遇到今天如果委員會同意解凍後才有後續的情況其他的都是查照案"},{"start":2724.287,"end":2736.781,"text":"換言之,這個查照案跟這3到7案的執行狀況並無影響預算執行的關聯,跟委員做說明。好,那麼現在請問委員會還有什麼對於3到7案的查照案有意見,請黃委員。"},{"start":2738.596,"end":2758.851,"text":"上一次這個解凍案之前就排過了排過了以後就是不同意所以才沒解凍嘛查一下上次立法院公報的記錄就很清楚了今天要解凍的每一個案子上一次排解凍案的時候我全部都有表示意見"},{"start":2759.992,"end":2785.458,"text":"我全部都有表示意見上一次開會的時候就是委員會沒有同意所以沒有辦法解凍那個不是說啊你送來本委員會你送來我們沒有其他的選擇就要通過沒這回事啊沒這回事啊如果這個邏輯成立的話上一次排委員會的時候就通過啦"},{"start":2787.011,"end":2815.333,"text":"怎麼會上次排委員會的時候沒有通過然後這一次排委員會的時候想要把它解釋成說這只是查照送來不用經過本委員會同意然後就一定可以過恐怕事情不是這個樣子吧如果這個邏輯可以成立那上次就解凍啦今天還排什麼就是上次沒有過嘛今天才會排嘛第二個"},{"start":2817.113,"end":2844.46,"text":"就像我剛講的阿12月30號阿今天解凍了請問你們要做什麼?剛司法院的代表是說我們盡力來執行這種抽象的語言對不起我聽不懂阿這種抽象的語言我完全聽不懂什麼叫做你們盡力來執行趁明天12月31號趕快把錢花一花嗎?如果運作到12月30號"},{"start":2846.386,"end":2875.488,"text":"這些經費沒有解凍到目前為止看起來對司法院的運作沒有什麼影響啊運作到今天都還運作得非常好啊那我們今天解凍給司法院的是什麼?把這些錢趕快明天12月31號全部花一花沒有這樣子的事情啊國家的經費不是這樣使用的啊我明確的表達剛剛所講的那些解凍案我全部都反對"},{"start":2878.063,"end":2905.818,"text":"好來請機關代表聽清楚我們今天剛剛已經處理了今天的第三案至第七案的更正那麼至於更正的內容為何是否更正之後還存在有剛剛委員垂詢因為如果今天查照沒有通過那是否會涉及到這些更正後金額的後續執行聽清楚了沒有"},{"start":2906.678,"end":2916.851,"text":"我再講一次,待會我會分別請機關代表,就第3案請看第7頁,第4案第11頁,第5案第31頁,第6案第35頁,第7案第41頁。由於今天司法院先來了一個對這3到7案"},{"start":2925.222,"end":2939.743,"text":"他的內容的更正。換言之今天查照案的內容跟上次因為沒有得到委員會的共識所以我們就另定其審議跟上次的內容是有別的"},{"start":2940.464,"end":2965.442,"text":"那待會請機關代表分別就後來更正後我們委員會已經同意查照的部分來說明那因為剛剛委員在垂詢的是上次這幾個案子它的內容委員會沒有完成查照那委員會當然在送備查的過程中委員有意見我們當然還不能視為通過那麼經過這段時間之後今天是"},{"start":2967.304,"end":2982.796,"text":"113年的倒數第二天了那這些預算的執行情況是否在你們大院這個司法院送來更正之後在後續的執行上今天的查照無論"},{"start":2984.142,"end":3007.943,"text":"處理的是通過還是不予同意要繼續處理那會有什麼影響請機關代表分別就這五個案子來做說明跟委員提醒一下我們現在處理的這五個案子跟上次處理的時候內容上已經更正了謝謝來黃委員我說明一下"},{"start":3009.844,"end":3010.684,"text":"今天解凍的意義何在?請司法院說清楚"},{"start":3036.072,"end":3061.003,"text":"今天解凍了,把這些錢明天12月31號趕快拿去花一花嗎?這是我的問題啊。今天更正的報告,我來強調一次啊。我不同意,我不同意解凍。除非司法院講得很清楚,今天解凍完了,這些錢明天12月31號要拿去幹什麼?更不要講,我先不要講實質的內容啦。"},{"start":3065.202,"end":3079.396,"text":"講實質的內容所謂的更正報告到底更正了什麼啊全部都在寫作文嘛你寫這種作文式的文章來要我們解惡動把立法院當橡皮圖章嗎"},{"start":3084.243,"end":3107.555,"text":"因為委員有很明確的表達他的立場跟要求接下來主席這邊就一案來逐一的處理我在處理的時候請機關代表做說明我們現在先進行第三案請看第七頁請機關代表說明第七頁更重內容為何我們接下來說明完後本期就處理"},{"start":3110.782,"end":3115.024,"text":"請每一個負責的部門簡短的說明你們更正的內容為何即可因為這些案子委員會上次都已經看過了那更正的內容大家有同意就備查"},{"start":3136.354,"end":3137.435,"text":"請第三案已經找好了沒有,再請說明"},{"start":3147.492,"end":3172.128,"text":"第三案的部分就是因為Wi-Fi的問題那上次我有提到過說這個這個部分不會是一個普遍的現象那我們今天我們更正了什麼我們全部把它盤點了就更正的部分做說明就是一個表格他表格的時候就說原來的原來的那個頻寬是多少那增加以後的頻寬是多少那我們基本上像像那個因為他每一個"},{"start":3172.844,"end":3173.745,"text":"你那個麥克風好像聲音會很小"},{"start":3202.216,"end":3229.438,"text":"那我們已經有建制到一半那另外就是說因為上次我有提到說說他的預算凍結的時候並不是針對這一項去凍結那如果我們完全都不執行這一項的話那我覺得這樣不合理因為這等於說跟國會承諾的事情做不到所以我們這一項是把把原來的就是原來的那個經費就是原來的經費照常之用因為他並不是凍結原來買wifi的他是凍結到別的地方去"},{"start":3230.279,"end":3242.047,"text":"那如果今天今天如果這個解凍的時候有一些科目可能必須要變更因為我們事實上是有一些開口合約存在的開口合約譬如說我們減買了一些筆電因為這些比較沒有當務之急我們減買那減買如果這項通過以後我們必須變更科目"},{"start":3247.231,"end":3248.672,"text":"謝謝剛剛是資訊處何處長的說明這邊請委員看到第10頁"},{"start":3269.228,"end":3289.482,"text":"剛剛何處長所提的是第10頁的副表1,第一個跟委員做說明的。第二個呢,上次的不同意解凍,並不是不同意執行副表1的內容,而是以副表1的內容為完備,而對於上位的科目預算進行凍結。"},{"start":3290.783,"end":3318.168,"text":"所以目前委員會所不同意解凍的預算跟副表一的執行內容不是直接相關的換言之不管今天的預算有沒有解凍副表一的內容都持續著一原計畫在執行當中今天是副表一經處長的說明經上次委員會的質疑他將內容具體呈現"},{"start":3319.281,"end":3335.774,"text":"那麼第三個部分那麼如果今天這個解凍案沒有經委員會同意那受到影響的不是這一個項目的執行內容是目前已經執行項目跟未執行的預算之間的一些"},{"start":3337.506,"end":3339.427,"text":"委員會所做的不同意解凍他設定的條件"},{"start":3353.718,"end":3381.68,"text":"未必是該凍結預算執行的對象而是我們要求對於某執行內容提供說明後才同意對整筆預算的部分解凍部分進行後續的處理解凍不解凍的結果影響所及是指尚未執行的內容哪些就無法執行還是整個執行該執行都做了因為預算編列不見得百分之百執行的"},{"start":3381.98,"end":3397.789,"text":"那麼這個解凍或不解凍,應不影響到12月30日之前已執行的各項計畫?處長有聽懂了喔?好,那麼我們繼續來請教委員會第10頁上次要求提供的書面內容是否足夠?程序上先請教主席第一個,我們第一案是"},{"start":3406.723,"end":3411.94,"text":"第三案沒有對不起所以我才說我程序上先請教第一案是要處理還是不要處理"},{"start":3413.752,"end":3439.655,"text":"我們現在進行的是報告事項的第3、第4、第5、第6、第7那麼由於委員會有委員有意見我們就依序的就每一案的方式來徵詢委員的意見那前面的兩個部分已經處理完畢了所謂前面兩個處理完畢指的是什麼?宣讀上次會議事錄,議事錄確認那麼上次的更正之預算凍結書面報告更正書面報告請責案也已經通過了"},{"start":3440.6,"end":3464.866,"text":"所謂上次更正的書面報告請查照指的是哪些案子?就是目前我們看到的第3案到第7案的內容這些書面內容因為它上次送到委員會的內容跟今天送來的內容不一樣那上次送來的第3案到第7案的內容經委員會有意見要求他們做一些調整所以今天送來的第3案大家看到的副表"},{"start":3465.646,"end":3485.354,"text":"就是上次在處理這個查照案當中所不同的所以剛剛處長已經說明了他們就第10頁的附表內容跟上次委員會垂詢的部分他做了補充請委員會瞭解所以送來補充了以後不就要經過我們同意就算已經進行完畢了嗎這是我的問題"},{"start":3487.279,"end":3512.402,"text":"送來補充更正內容在前面的查詔案剛剛表示已經同意了委員會已經同意了等一下等一下等一下委員會什麼時候表示同意的剛剛念過啦對啊我表示異議啦沒有我們表示異議的是在我問第三案到第七案的查詔案是否同意沒有沒有沒有前面剛剛在念的時候我已經很清楚的表達異議了那不是主席念過就直接算通過欸"},{"start":3514.226,"end":3519.349,"text":"可以把剛剛的會議的影音全部調出來看啊來我從頭一一到尾耶"},{"start":3521.656,"end":3544.65,"text":"可以這樣用混的喔請注意用詞主席說的在這邊來印給大家看我剛剛已經說了我異議了你異議的時候已經在處理第三案到第七案了誰嘛剛剛你就是主席自己坐在主席台上面你唸過就算了嘛唸過之後委員會沒有異議才會通過的異議啊"},{"start":3546.058,"end":3556.124,"text":"你一一的時候已經在處理第3到7案了。請委員會尊重你自己啊!請主席尊重你自己啦!你回去看看你剛剛那邊什麼時候講什麼話!休息!休息啦!休息!我從頭一到尾啊!"},{"start":3571.099,"end":3595.269,"text":"你唸完就算了喔!你以為你住在主席牌,但你唸後主席喔!我有異議!沒有關係,掉你袋出來看吧!我從從異議到異議!呼喊到呼喊到接走!你不要觀測啦!你以為唸過就算了喔!唸過你當場沒有異議就結束了!我有異議啦!你後來我唸第三案在記下你才異議的啦!搞不清楚幾個狀況!"},{"start":3596.829,"end":3598.892,"text":"連政府司政預算金額不清楚"},{"start":3602.88,"end":3616.205,"text":"你現在暴力供詞我嗎?你要暴力供詞我嗎?開始暴力供詞了嗎?沒有啦!因為你暴力供詞的意思太多了啦!開始了嗎?開始什麼?沒有啊!你暴力供詞其他委員!所有各大媒體通通都有啊!你繼續講!你繼續講!大家看得清楚你在這裡說不過就開始講一些五四單了!"},{"start":3629.013,"end":3639.1,"text":"唉,到底是誰說了過說不過沒有關係啦,今天是主席喊休息嘛,慌慌會議有關,你是我們民調會議的主席王嘉斌,你要喊休息就喊休息,主席念完就算了喔,不喊完這個案子喔,丟人現臉,我從頭到尾一一到尾,我從頭一一到尾"},{"start":3672.315,"end":3676.679,"text":"連政府的預算的施政的內容他一層一都不了解"},{"start":3685.342,"end":3707.169,"text":"法學不是我不見得知道預算的實行內容你不用在那邊搶那邊五四三啦你以為你嘴巴講出來是怎麼樣就怎麼樣喔我有很多時間是為了要節省時間你對於凍結預算解凍後的處理程序有沒有保留有沒有執行有沒有擴充採購都不了解剛剛北京移民處才要跟你做說明很可惜你的腦袋聽不懂"},{"start":3708.598,"end":3733.775,"text":"你用這種呼喊的方法沒有辦法達到你要的目的啦!我會瞭解預算的行政執行就說人家在呼喊不可以去翻一番規嘛!那你要他講清楚嘛!是啊!那你要怎麼問啊?我問了啊!他們有回答嗎?剛剛我要問的時候一直在主席台上面講說主席要問主席要處理那是第三案你以為你前面又念了就沒有問得過去喔?那是第三案不是第二案"},{"start":3734.295,"end":3745.805,"text":"您 出乎了 恍神了 不要怪別人我完全沒有恍神我聚精會神的坐在這邊開會我不像你們一堆民進黨的立委阿為了要護航連會都不來開丟臉阿民進黨欸"},{"start":3750.287,"end":3766.492,"text":"只有一個委員來開會加一個主席丟臉啦其他的委員到什麼地方去了其他委員到什麼地方去了這個就是我們自由法制委員會丟臉啦沒有關係啊我除了你預算我請羅志祥委員幫我看啊我更不會我更不會像你們一樣"},{"start":3778.188,"end":3805.557,"text":"明明表決那麼重要的法案做公務車跑去找奶工還在做直播對 做公務車跑去找奶工吃飯放的那些人吹風淋雨就是人民進黨幹的事情啊很好很好繼續講 講得很好都是你的直播的內容我們等到那個內容掉出來我們會給委員會看一下"},{"start":3822.602,"end":3823.677,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":3858.56,"end":3859.922,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":3876.776,"end":3881.42,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":3901.618,"end":3914.008,"text":"剛剛我跟汪小林委員回看直播"},{"start":3925.834,"end":3953.359,"text":"我們的主席阿,你針對報告事項第二齁,念完以後你直接跳到第三,你中間根本連問都沒問,然後就說這我們就要同意,你是這樣說法嗎?先處理第二案司法院更正之預算解凍書面報告來函本函更正函於被查後,再配合後續第三至七案之預算解凍書面報告案,依序進行處理。第二次來函決定"},{"start":3956.055,"end":3983.576,"text":"我們委員會休息到10點半,我們調錄影帶,把它組織稿整理出來,休息到10點半。那麼我們處理呢,報告事項的第3至7案。對啊,他沒有,他沒有。他直接講一個準語被查,就是處理3至7案。主論都沒問。稿子念完,連個問句都沒有,連個句號都沒有,直接跳第三案。然後就跟我們講,前面那個第二案是大家同意的,有這種主席嗎?莫名其妙。"},{"start":3984.878,"end":3991.981,"text":"上面就已經剛回不回看了啦還要凹你就倒回去第二案重新處理不就好了你耳朵才有問題欸"},{"start":4206.852,"end":4207.552,"text":"現在呢我們依序處理報告現在呢現在我們依序處理報告現在呢現在我們依序處理報告現在呢"},{"start":4239.326,"end":4239.588,"text":"好現在呢"},{"start":4996.664,"end":5013.524,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":5034.113,"end":5037.076,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5040.259,"end":5042.321,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5059.096,"end":5059.597,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5081.693,"end":5088.94,"text":"二、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。）二、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。）"},{"start":5103.094,"end":5120.613,"text":"二、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。）二、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。）"},{"start":5121.874,"end":5130.638,"text":"二、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。．一、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":5151.448,"end":5151.829,"text":"主席"},{"start":5159.953,"end":5166.516,"text":"二、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。）完整會議二、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。）"},{"start":5189.029,"end":5198.342,"text":"二、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。）"},{"start":5203.55,"end":5204.791,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5228.106,"end":5230.567,"text":"請審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案案"},{"start":5254.48,"end":5255.701,"text":"一、繼續審查司法院函"},{"start":5272.75,"end":5273.271,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5296.63,"end":5313.567,"text":"因為這個前面已經全部都要過了,不是通過這個,因為他就把那個當成亂立了,還沒有這樣,中央政府都還沒發言,沒有當初的那個,為什麼那個是,那個沒有把握,那個是說他的立法院會解決,他要排放法該,不是說我們要跟他排放。"},{"start":5317.391,"end":5317.651,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5335.171,"end":5336.192,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5366.085,"end":5367.166,"text":"司法院主管委員會議"},{"start":5404.751,"end":5415.156,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5431.937,"end":5432.858,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5461.7,"end":5462.52,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5504.588,"end":5505.868,"text":"同一個被凍結 同一個被凍結 同一個被凍結"},{"start":5531.568,"end":5532.028,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":5563.84,"end":5566.623,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":5587.703,"end":5605.298,"text":"對,那你的前報告是國會決議的這一段,你的後報告也是國會決議的一段,只是你的內容後種。那我的意思是說,從程序上,你們在講,不然像是這人是,像是你的代表議案的表現,你司法院針對這一個人,那你是送養罪,你知道嗎?對,對,對,那變相其實是從這個報告"},{"start":5612.201,"end":5613.502,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":5635.471,"end":5636.831,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":5668.919,"end":5669.821,"text":"查詔案宣讀完畢。"},{"start":5681.459,"end":5683.78,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":5707.829,"end":5710.952,"text":"上一次參會反對原題案的例子"},{"start":5725.303,"end":5726.525,"text":"司法院主管委員"},{"start":5740,"end":5741.641,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":5768.57,"end":5769.191,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5793.08,"end":5816.843,"text":"一、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。．二、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。．二、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。．二、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。．二、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。．二、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。．二、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。．二、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。．二、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文"},{"start":5821.408,"end":5823.094,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5833.114,"end":5858.04,"text":"二、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。．一、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。．二、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":5864.161,"end":5864.962,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5887.568,"end":5906.985,"text":"二、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。）二、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。）"},{"start":5909.724,"end":5918.931,"text":"二、繼續審查司法院函請審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。）"},{"start":5928.031,"end":5953.119,"text":"二、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。．一、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。．二、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草"},{"start":5956.638,"end":5969.49,"text":"二、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。）二、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":5994.537,"end":6002.799,"text":"二、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。．一、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":6004.754,"end":6005.635,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6025.508,"end":6027.21,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6052.602,"end":6055.196,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":6068.305,"end":6069.526,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6097.006,"end":6107.074,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":6128.911,"end":6150.671,"text":"二、繼續審查司法院函請審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。）二、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。）二、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":6157.892,"end":6172.363,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":6176.112,"end":6176.532,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6202.807,"end":6203.348,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6214.295,"end":6233.743,"text":"看起來好像都是委員會在証明,但實際上從區分的關係來看,其實本來前面的報告是不用委員會在這邊証明的,他如果要改為要跟我們討論,他應該是在面會的時候,他就要動議,改列為討論,因為法的法,討論要改列為討論,不像我們原則上的討論,但是我們在面會可以改成法。"},{"start":6243.447,"end":6244.868,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6267.088,"end":6267.949,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6288.903,"end":6289.704,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6304.342,"end":6304.702,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6324.369,"end":6325.19,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":6336.096,"end":6336.416,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":6360.99,"end":6362.411,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":6386.714,"end":6387.455,"text":"委員會主席委員會長"},{"start":6418.328,"end":6442.922,"text":"就是更新資料沒有更新的基礎我站在現場做了多久?那至於說你更新的資料你更新的資料你更新的資料你更新的資料你更新的資料你更新的資料你更新的資料你更新的資料你更新的資料你更新的資料你更新的資料你更新的資料你更新的資料你更新的資料你更新的資料你更新的資料"},{"start":6447.985,"end":6448.626,"text":"凍結項目 凍結項目 凍結項目"},{"start":6469.342,"end":6469.843,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6488.943,"end":6491.866,"text":"請審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案案"},{"start":6518.767,"end":6519.907,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":6560.239,"end":6572.649,"text":"一、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。）二、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。）二、繼續審查司法院組織法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":6584.911,"end":6586.212,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6610.893,"end":6631.877,"text":"二、繼續審查司法院函請審查司法院函請審查司法院函請審查司法院函請審查司法院函請審查"},{"start":6665.296,"end":6667.298,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6702.79,"end":6708.882,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":6741.893,"end":6745.415,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6760.39,"end":6769.358,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6795.307,"end":6810.213,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員"},{"start":6820.52,"end":6823.322,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6863.356,"end":6864.458,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":6903.078,"end":6926.129,"text":"二、繼續審查司法院函請審查司法院函請審查司法院函請審查司法院函請審查"},{"start":6933.59,"end":6934.354,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6981.897,"end":6987.502,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7008.48,"end":7009.421,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":7048.239,"end":7059.899,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7074.39,"end":7074.991,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7096.852,"end":7119.742,"text":"好,現在繼續開會,跟委員做個說明現在委員會各委員桌上有放到一個就是剛剛所謂的竹子稿那麼剛剛金主席這邊對應我們在議事人員提供的才是參考內容去對照之後是均與參考內容一致那我在這裡跟委員做說明"},{"start":7121.223,"end":7144.753,"text":"在議事上,主席所謂的宣告,未必要以徵詢匯眾有意為前提。那麼有些我們巡曆會徵詢匯眾的意見,那比如說議事錄的確認。但是如果現場有徵詢,無表達,那我們就會做宣告。那剛剛的部分呢,我們分成兩個部分。一個是今天有報告事項跟討論事項。"},{"start":7146.013,"end":7169.628,"text":"那報告事項當中除第三案到第七案是上次委員會處理報告事項內容有委員會有意見所以定期處理那至於第二案的內容他是送交第三到七案以及討論事項第一案的更正資料因此主席在處理上就是決定准予被查"},{"start":7170.248,"end":7198.259,"text":"但是既然委員會在後續3到7案報告事項的討論當中覺得對第二案的更正資料內容有意見那麼主席雖然當下並無人表達異議那主席這邊也可以接受以復一的方式來重新徵詢對今日我們報告事項第二案到第7案的處理方式我們委員會的意見"},{"start":7199.099,"end":7212.733,"text":"那麼剛剛有委員表達對第二案的准予被查有不同意見那我們做復議的處理那請問在場委員對於第二案准予被查是否同意"},{"start":7213.865,"end":7242.619,"text":"不同意好不同意那現在呢其他委員是否也接受這個第二案包括事項不予被查的這樣的一個決定那如果委員會覺得我們第二案就不予被查那接下來我先做說明再請那個我們的機關代表做說明那在這裡呢也要跟機關代表做一個提醒因為你們送來第二案要求查照的更正內容"},{"start":7243.479,"end":7251.313,"text":"包括了從第三案到第七案的報告事項以及跨到了我們討論事項的第一案"},{"start":7252.455,"end":7277.002,"text":"那在性質上跟委員會跟大家報告一下委員會是呈院會之命來進行受理報告事項跟討論事項那由於查照案他的報告事項的性質系院會交定委員會無權變更他的性質也就我們另定其處理但不會一列為討論案"},{"start":7278.762,"end":7300.388,"text":"再說明一次今天院會送交本委員會處理的查照案我們委員會只能接受院會的這樣的指定的性質那至於後面的討論事項院會交付我們進行討論事項第一案和第二案這都是包括的是一個是討論事項第一案是一個凍結預算"},{"start":7302.088,"end":7323.317,"text":"案另外一個是一個行政院組織法的部分條文修正案這個在討論事項中我們要處理那我現在呢還是要告訴司法院因為你們送來第二案的查照內容涵蓋了兩包一包是3到7案報告事項的查照案的更新內容一案是"},{"start":7325.735,"end":7342.508,"text":"討論事項第一案的更新內容那因為現在委員會已經不接受你們第二案的更新內容了那請問你們對於待會如果要處理討論事項第一案的更新內容有沒有要繼續交給本委員會來進行審查時候的參酌瞭解嗎"},{"start":7350.219,"end":7358.371,"text":"目前我們是在進行報告事項的第二案的查照案那第二案已經有委員會委員"},{"start":7360.935,"end":7384.082,"text":"認為不予查照,那我們當然接下來我們就不能夠把它當作是你們送來的更新資料。由於你們送來的更新資料有含涉到後面討論事項的第一案,那因為如果這個部分我們通通不接受不處理,那待會在討論事項第一案的時候就沒有更新資料了。所以我這裡呢是現場處理,詢問機關代表你們要不要把"},{"start":7385.029,"end":7393.082,"text":"第二案查照案的更新資料內容涉及到討論事項第一案的內容提出來請我們委員會表達意見"},{"start":7397.108,"end":7424.665,"text":"要,好,那麼待會主席會跟委員會瞭解一下那待會你們在報告第二案更新內容的時候請你們告訴我們哪些是報告事項第三案至第七案的內容那些我們就不接受了哪一個是我們討論事項第一案的內容委員會才有辦法根據你們送來的資料進行後續的處理好,那請問是誰要來幫我們做這樣的報告"},{"start":7425.748,"end":7447.261,"text":"那我們的剛剛因為因為那個第三案的部分已經說明了那接下來依序請第四案、第五案、第六案、第七案以及報告事項第一案相關內容更新的業務部門主管告訴委員會到底你們更新哪些資料那雖然我們3到7案部分委員會已經不受理了但是還是讓大家知道一下謝謝"},{"start":7452.546,"end":7478.977,"text":"主席我請教一下我剛因為在別的委員會我看一下這個第一我手上這一張是早上的是吧?你是說主治稿是吧?主治稿是因為剛剛有委員會委員表達對於主席在處理我們報告事項第三案到第七案的程序上認為報告事項第二案的准與被查的部分"},{"start":7479.657,"end":7507.562,"text":"沒有留予我們委員會表達不同意見的機會那剛剛主席已經根據復議的程序重新提交給委員會表示意見了那現在我們接下來呢就是第二案報告事項第二案就沒有同意查照那因為第二案的內容他全部是針對我們報告事項第三案到第七案所涉及到的內容的更新以及討論事項第一案"},{"start":7508.51,"end":7508.53,"text":"委員會長"},{"start":7524.751,"end":7533.978,"text":"第二報告事項第二案的查照送請查到的更新的內容主義的跟委員會說明是更新哪一個案的會議資料的內容。"},{"start":7546.467,"end":7561.964,"text":"所以目前我們在準備要接下來進行的是3到7,剛剛第3案好像已經算不算處理了,還沒有,等於3到7還沒處理了。好,那麼接下來請機關代表分別就我們報告事項第二案。"},{"start":7562.684,"end":7586.356,"text":"更新資料內容涉及到後續報告事項第三至第七案以及討論事項第一案的相關部分請說明那因為剛剛那個第三案的部分資訊處處長已經說明了那我們現在請第四案的部分機關代表來做說明主席、各位委員大家好那我的形式一定在這邊做補充報告關於第四案的部分我們主要是跟"},{"start":7590.339,"end":7618.298,"text":"有關第4案的部分我們是主要提案41有關於簡便實例落差的問題我們在新的報告裡面新增了法務基金會對酬金折算基準從1500元調整為2000元的說明第二個增加法務基金會預計在114年成立專職律師刑事辯護中心的一些說明資料第三點我們新增了公社還有公社辯護人或閱兵辯護人的一些進修課程的一些辦理情形"},{"start":7620.9,"end":7646.469,"text":"提案45部分有關於捐贈不並送部分我們內容並沒有做太大的變動那對提案49部分有關於營業秘密的部分我們新增的主要內容是新增國民法官跟被衛國民法官以及一般民眾對緩和評議秘密的一些意見的傾向那意見的傾向是他們認為說如果透過充分的自由的評論跟法官的一些事宜那這時候就可以避免一些"},{"start":7647.429,"end":7666.894,"text":"的一些偏見或是不當的評議內容另外我們增加的另外第二點我們增加的新增成效評估委員會就評議秘密的一些相關的規範那認為說還不需要委員當時認為說那不需要再做放寬應該嚴守評議秘密這部分決定"},{"start":7671.772,"end":7685.129,"text":"報告事項第7的部分我們新增的報告是新增的法務基金會對籌金折算標準的一些調整從1500元調整為2000元的這些相關說明另外包括新增的辯護人"},{"start":7686.721,"end":7714.97,"text":"工作方以及相關的培訓計畫的一些課程活動情形另外,增加了法務基金會預計在114年成立專職律師刑事辯護中心的一些說明另外,第四我們新增了招聘約聘辯護人11位及分化情形的一些說明那有關於報告事項第6案的部分我們增加了一些相關的數據就是辦理科技監控的一些相關數據跟教育訓練的一些情形以上"},{"start":7716.428,"end":7722.598,"text":"好謝謝廳長那廳長沒想到第4案到第7案都是您的夜館範圍"},{"start":7724.554,"end":7751.71,"text":"因為你念得好快我來不及跟委員會做提示第4案你是一口氣講4、6、7我是先請你做第4案來那麼跟委員說明目前剛剛那個李廳長所說明的請大家翻閱今天這個報紙顏色的這一份資料的第11頁司法院書面報告內容就是關於國民法官制度等等的相關內容"},{"start":7752.671,"end":7765.745,"text":"那他一共是從第12、13、14、15到17頁這是屬於第4案的內容那因為第4案的內容這些內容都是本次送交給本委員會要進行使用討論"},{"start":7768.424,"end":7791.981,"text":"就在進行第四案包括事項第四案的一些處理啦那我們就全部視為是新增資料啦那我就先還是逐一的詢問委員會先第四案的這些新增送來的11月到17月的內容那他講的是國民法官制度推行中他需要進行預算解凍150萬所據描述的"},{"start":7795.043,"end":7798.645,"text":"今天司法院針對113年度預算凍結案摘要報告在這個摘要報告最後說我們所列的6項凍結案"},{"start":7825.419,"end":7854.859,"text":"禁請會議同意解凍這個是司法院今天到本司法法制委員會的主要訴求我先表明我的立場針對所列六項凍結案本人不同意解凍本人不同意解凍我有再說明一次今天是12月30號今天解凍你是打算明天把錢全部都花了嗎"},{"start":7856.943,"end":7877.09,"text":"今天解凍這個事情有什麼意義我為了節省時間啊我話第一輪先講到這裡你要每一案細緻的來進行討論也沒有關係啊我特別提醒司法院國民法官的制度啊花了全體納稅人多少錢從一開始推動到現在花了全體納稅人多少錢結果都在辦一些什麼案子"},{"start":7888.939,"end":7916.912,"text":"我上一次針對國民法官的制度說法制委員會吳宗憲委員非常用心的辦了考察我一般啊考察我不太參加的但如果牽涉到重要政策議題的考察我會參加我那天在考察的時候我已經跟司法院說得很清楚了你們過去這幾年國民法官的制度花了多少錢"},{"start":7919.571,"end":7932.288,"text":"結果做出來的樣子做出來的樣子處理的案子是哪些類型的案子我希望司法院徹底的、冷靜的回去檢討"},{"start":7935.953,"end":7953.053,"text":"好 謝謝黃委員的指教那麼剛剛黃委員還是也就本案也就全部的第3到7案的報告事項的查抄案所做的要求那是機關代表可以分別就通案說明這些解通案"},{"start":7953.573,"end":7979.194,"text":"如果委員會完成解凍或不完成解凍後續機關會如何的處理進行一個蓋鑰匙的說明然後再請李廳長就第4案的部分如果150萬解凍或未解凍後續會進行的預算執行的方法跟方式是什麼那分別來做說明那先請副秘書長做全部蓋掛性的說明"},{"start":7980.61,"end":7986.315,"text":"有關於預算這一個部分我請會計處長回答可以嗎?整個概括的那請處長說明報告委員會關於那個整個預算的執行就是我們如果解凍之後"},{"start":7997.145,"end":8018.259,"text":"我們如果能夠執行的,如果能夠有依照合約的部分,或者是我們已經在處理當中的部分,能夠付款的部分,我們就直接依照一程序去滋用。如果為人即時去滋用,或者是沒有辦法去滋用的話,我們就是那個結繳國庫,會這樣子處理。"},{"start":8020.742,"end":8037.834,"text":"好,那就是3到7案查詔案如果未獲委員會接受,那你們對於這些應解凍,打算解凍而未能解凍的就是結繳國庫嗎?那如果解凍了,能夠執行的就執行,不能執行的也是結繳國庫,是這樣意思嗎?"},{"start":8040.538,"end":8058.104,"text":"好那接下來那個李廳長那麼請問第4案的部分你們這裡是凍結150萬那剛剛有委員對於國民法官相關的業務推動有一些看法那這150萬解凍或未能解凍對你們後續執行上產生的實況的推演是什麼請說明是"},{"start":8059.241,"end":8061.342,"text":"好,那跟委員報告,那麼現在第4案的部分以及第6案跟第7案,那第6案是在第35頁"},{"start":8090.492,"end":8102.351,"text":"第35頁是凍結100萬那目前剛剛刑事廳長他已經說明的是關於刑事科技設備監控的內容那請問委員對於剛剛"},{"start":8105.014,"end":8128.707,"text":"李廷長所救報告事項第6案的內容對不起喔,因為我現在手頭上只有本次更新的資料啦所以我也無法就上次提供的資料來做詢問那我原本你們看的也都是今天更新的資料那更新的資料內容呢在第6案的部分第37頁部分表達是做科技監控設備的這個採購跟執行"},{"start":8132.549,"end":8135.721,"text":"好那有沒有委員要就這個部分不明白的地方還要詢問李廳長來請翁委員"},{"start":8139.728,"end":8167.85,"text":"其實剛剛聽會計處處長這個的談話我是想說可不可以請處長您就直接很清楚的告訴我們接下來這幾案有哪一個是已經簽約了或是說是若完全都沒有任何的採購或是這個做其他的簽約的這些活動這些事情的話那是不是就代表這些錢都是被凍在那裡所以完全沒有使用嗎"},{"start":8169.52,"end":8176.849,"text":"就算是我們今天解凍了明天來講一定也來不及就是一定會解個什麼解繳國庫"},{"start":8178.479,"end":8205.49,"text":"可不可以請那個處長回答?好,謝謝翁委員。那麼因為現在翁委員談的是第...報告資料第...就是剛剛一開始那個廳長他有說...有有有...呃,處長,會計處處長,他是就整體來講,那可是我剛剛其實我就想問這個問題,然後呃,後來剛剛這個是...李廳長李廳長他說其實國民法官這個事情他就根本沒有做嘛,對不對?那接下來這個科技設備的部分是不是有採購嗎?"},{"start":8209.523,"end":8225.692,"text":"現在跟委員說明我們要進行第6案是要了解目前第6案所謂科技監控設備凍結100萬的影響跟後續解不解凍的差別那待會看是聽長還是處長要回答我們委員的詢問像科技監控設備就是電子腳療"},{"start":8226.713,"end":8248.128,"text":"那如果電子假聊目前這個在執行中的監控如果少了這一百萬會不會有人的電子假聊就沒電了他就跑掉了還是說沒有這一百萬還是可以有效的監控目前或交保在外用電子假聊監控的這些相關案件的被告或嫌疑人請具體說明是要廳長說明還是處長說明這兩位都需要先請廳長再請處長"},{"start":8254.195,"end":8282.466,"text":"謝謝委員的詢問有關於科技監控的部分有關科技監控設備執行科控中心的相關執行預算包括設備預算的部分是分別編列在高等法院那個是他們是跟高檢署來負責執行的那我們刑事廳的部分包括是教育訓練而已所以這部分我們會我們當時也是尊重委員會這邊的決議所以我們沒有去相關的做動資所以刑事廳這邊只是教育訓練那些也來不及教育訓練了嗎"},{"start":8283.426,"end":8287.469,"text":"我們也有做,我們就是規模變得比較小大概我們辦了三次的教育訓練大概有300多人來做參加那我們預計明年度也繼續做教育訓練以上"},{"start":8300.048,"end":8319.614,"text":"處長請因為我們要看合約有一些有開口合約的就是依照原簽訂的合約來去執行所以說原則上我們如果那個依照依照我們的我們那時候我們都整個立法院的那個決議我們很多東西都沒有簽約但是有一些部分"},{"start":8320.574,"end":8323.036,"text":"接下來因為第7案的部分請看委員看到第41頁"},{"start":8350.336,"end":8372.59,"text":"第41頁是關於一般行政凍結50萬,如何提高職業律師及法輔律師在國民法官法的接案意願。這個部分剛剛李廳長也做說明了。那麼是不是委員有對於這個部分的內容?因為目前我們委員會不接受他們所提供的最新的從第41頁到第47頁的內容。"},{"start":8376.372,"end":8394.839,"text":"那所以呢,如果有不明白的部分,可以馬上提出來。好,那如果沒有的話,那麼第7案,第7案是請,剛剛講到,第7案已經講完了。我剛剛講的是467,那第5案是哪一位?第5案,第31頁。"},{"start":8401.363,"end":8418.796,"text":"三十一頁的部分他這裡面寫的是法律輔助基金會的這個凍結50分的內容那法律輔助基金會是哪一位機關代表是要由法輔的周執行長嗎是哪一位廳長"},{"start":8424.548,"end":8426.95,"text":"主席各位委員好我是司法行政廳廳長高玉順那現在就這個第6項決議的部分來簡要的說明我們這一次的書面報告的內容那主要是我們新增了從108年開始的有關這個輔助律師的酬金有做的一些調整那其中呢有7項重要的調整"},{"start":8448.484,"end":8470.134,"text":"包含了就是法律諮詢的籌金從3小時1.5基數調整為1小時0.6基數還有增加了大法庭程序的輔助項目籌金標準以及合理工時那另外還有增加了可以指派3位輔助律師或專律來共同辦理這個憲法法庭還有大法官程序的審理案件"},{"start":8471.089,"end":8486.738,"text":"那另外呢,針對了這個案情複雜的部分呢,我們也另外增加了這個徵仇的事由。還有呢,這個另外呢,針對輔助律師他有幫忙撰寫了上述理由書,或者是訴訟救助的抗告再抗告。"},{"start":8487.338,"end":8499.641,"text":"或者是接獲本案判決之後呢,再做這個積壓,還或者是暫行安置的開庭。那還有呢,就是針對消債案件,另外撰寫強制執行生命意義狀,這一些有做徵求。另外呢,我們還會核實支付這個檢警培真專案以及偏遠地區的交通,日間交通費用。這個是一般案件目前重要的幾個徵求事項。"},{"start":8511.784,"end":8518.693,"text":"那針對國民法官案件的部分呢我們在國民法官案件上路之前在101年111年我們有分別這個基金會有修正了籌金計付辦法將法服的這個籌金的基數呢從每一個基數1000元提高為1500元這個是在國民法官上路之前"},{"start":8531.508,"end":8547.433,"text":"那在公民法官案件上路之後呢因為我們考量到因為考量到這個公民法官這個訴訟時程的安排比較密集另外我們還有增加了公民法官的選任程序還有律師調查證據律師調查證據的這個困難度的提高所以呢我們也另外呢就"},{"start":8552.555,"end":8552.835,"text":"委員會有沒有進一步的詢問"},{"start":8583.324,"end":8595.927,"text":"請換委員今年度法律輔助基金會編列了14億9409萬5千元的預算請問到目前為止執行的數字有多少"},{"start":8605.393,"end":8633.965,"text":"跟委員報告因為我們這個部分今年還沒有決算所以我們這個決算的數字還沒有出來所以到目前為止執行了多少連大概的數字都不知道請機關代表注意主席請你發言才發言請問關於這個部分是由哪位機關代表要做說明是法福基金會嗎那請周執行長說明是跟委員報告在年中的時候應該執行的這個部分都有接近50%但是因為我們決算還沒有決算所以決算的數字還沒有出來"},{"start":8634.838,"end":8656.732,"text":"所以到目前為止你連大致的數字都沒有請問是這樣嗎在年中的時候對不起我問的是現在現在這個部分要等到12月1月決算以後我們這邊才有具體對所以我說你目前為止到目前為止花了多少錢連大致的數字都沒有是嗎所以我旅遊問說現在到底是執行14億還是執行15億連這個都不知道請問是這樣嗎"},{"start":8663.65,"end":8684.268,"text":"跟委員報告因為我們這個部分的決算的叫今年12月的酬金才會做確定1月才會確定12月的酬金如果是這樣的話那我就非常好奇了那如果是這樣你完全對於現在已經執行多少錢一點概念都沒有那你怎麼知道"},{"start":8685.089,"end":8704.847,"text":"你們現在執行到1月出來的決算數不會超過預算數因為我剛聽你這樣的回答我必須要老實說我非常非常驚訝我今天如果是要你一個非常精準的數字那當然不可能嘛但問題是每一個機關包括法服在內一定要做預算的控管啊"},{"start":8706.052,"end":8730.91,"text":"一定要做預算的控管啊確保你剛剛所謂的1月決算的時候不會超過預算數嘛所以我如果連跟你請教一個大致的數字都不知道的話那我就會非常的驚訝我們現在法律輔助基金會的內機內控是完全不設防嗎現在可能執行15億16億你也不知道這樣不是很奇怪的事嗎"},{"start":8732.455,"end":8748.334,"text":"那個法律輔助基金會代表周執行長那麼因為剛剛司法院的機關代表有會計處處長那剛剛委員垂詢的內容請你們因為主席要處理了還是可以就你們今天只有你來沒有會計人員來"},{"start":8749.615,"end":8772.047,"text":"那您可以在會後趕快請會計人員就委員關心的事項我知道我們那個有權威性的有法定效益的數字是決算報告但是委員垂詢的是執行的進度那依我們行政機關其實主計人員、會計人員的掌控其實以現在12月來講11月的執行數其實會計人員都知道"},{"start":8775.714,"end":8803.623,"text":"第二該機關的該科目的預算如果有遭凍結扣除凍結金額的才是該年度可執行的預算原則上會計人員是不會允許凍資超過這個水位的這個是自不代言這是常識但是如果有對這部分保留有質疑那機關代表最好還是可以提供你們內機內控上可以確保"},{"start":8804.703,"end":8816.793,"text":"該科目在年度預算被凍結後的所餘金額是就該金額去執行,不會執行超過凍結內的金額。好不好?好,那麼以上,來,周委員請。"},{"start":8819.09,"end":8840.924,"text":"另外我想請教執行長就是因為其實這個凍結只有凍結50萬跟你這個原來113年的編列是14億9千4百多萬元這其實是個非常小的數字我是不知道這個凍結50萬元現在是有影響到你們法服基金會的哪個業務嗎你是哪個業務需要這50萬可以請說明一下"},{"start":8845.695,"end":8867.875,"text":"請周執行長瞭解問題試著回答主席跟各位委員報告第一個部分就是我們這個部分我們之後會回覆黃委員我們執行的進度但是應該有百分之九十幾以上第二個部分翁委員垂詢的部分因為我們相關的凍結的預算我們就沒有凍資所以如果大院這邊沒有准以凍結的話我們就會繳回司法院然後這個司法院會去做統籌的處理"},{"start":8869.943,"end":8877.629,"text":"好那因為我們目前在進行的是報告事項第二案的查照案那因為委員會不接受我們那個"},{"start":8879.154,"end":8902.257,"text":"機關代表所提出的這些補充資料那主席在這邊因為他是屬於我們立法院的關係文書那目前呢除了在場人員之外也有線上的觀賞的國民呢他們在關心那目前我們立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會的會議報告及討論事項的關係文書我手上的這一本目前我們處理的是進行第二案"},{"start":8902.737,"end":8931.724,"text":"那第2案的文書的頁碼當中關於第7案的部分是關於資訊處的部分那他們更新的資料是在第10頁第10頁的部分那麼那以及第11頁第4案的部分第11頁是在處理刑事審判行政當中裡面關於國民法官制度為了幫減變造成實力上的平衡所做的一些預算支應以及第"},{"start":8934.764,"end":8949.728,"text":"18頁包括了這個對不起這邊的預算內容因為第18頁第18頁他沒有寫到凍結數那麼以及第31頁講的是法律輔助基金會他凍結50萬的致應情形以及第35頁"},{"start":8963.154,"end":8989.795,"text":"第35頁是屬於科技監控設備凍結了100萬以及第41頁也是國民法官制度當中提高職業律師法輔律師的接案意願的相關經費凍結了50萬元那由於這個第二案的查詔案這些內容我們委員會不接受所以我們從第三案"},{"start":8990.771,"end":9007.656,"text":"至第7案,我們就今天無法處理,令定期處理。接下來我們繼續處理討論事項第一案的預算解凍案。本案前於本屆第一會期本會第21次全體委員會議排定討論,報告及詢答完畢,並決議令定期繼續處理。"},{"start":9014.498,"end":9041.925,"text":"由於本日議程報告事項第二案的來函更正書面資料委員會是不予被查請問針對討論事項第一案司法院有沒有補充說明還是要跟委員說明因為我們現在手上要處理討論事項第一案的討論資料司法院送來的部分我們已經不予被查了所以我們在進行這案的部分我先請教委員會對於前面"},{"start":9042.93,"end":9044.531,"text":"因為前面已經有結論了嘛"},{"start":9056.894,"end":9083.575,"text":"所以第一案在邏輯上面結論就很清楚就沒辦法接受就是第一案我們討論事項的討論基礎機關所送來的書面資料內容我們就不能夠作為我們處理的一個參考那現在我們就進行第一案第一案有沒有要做說明我們現在的第一案就是說對於討論上第一案委員會還有沒有其他意見要詢問"},{"start":9085.779,"end":9092.225,"text":"那對於第一案是否同意?不同意那那個機關代表有沒有報告?"},{"start":9096.108,"end":9125.026,"text":"主席以及各位因為這一件上次的時候我就提到過了他那件上次如果我們不用新的資料就是用舊的資料新的資料我們是把每一個具體個案比如說你為什麼查不到我們就直接做說明了那上次的那個報告裡面是沒有提到具體個案因為我們認為本來做一個通案性的改良就好了那上次我已經提到過第一個是林淑穎委員查不到那查不到我說這個查詢的東西是很簡單的查不到現在馬上開電腦直接下去查"},{"start":9125.686,"end":9154.913,"text":"那直接下去查零尾那個因為那個是一大概是去年的事情那我問同說為什麼可以這樣子查不到啊事實上因為那個是可能因為我們的機器是有分流的比如說他可能有好幾步的查詢的因為這樣分流其中一步是查不到可是另外一步可能就查得到那我說這種就歸於自信處這個一定要跟人家講清楚好啊如果查不到我們現在新的裡面事實上裡面也有那我們就在加強說你查不到的時候上面有個信箱可以馬上回復我說這才是最重要的"},{"start":9155.433,"end":9167.792,"text":"那另外的就是黃委員提出上次那件那件我們也是非常感謝黃委員的指教可是那件的時候是高院沒有上傳而且我在會場上就已經有說過了那個是高院沒有上傳"},{"start":9168.649,"end":9187.438,"text":"那我覺得說我們如果在這個案件的就是案件的凍結預算我們最好是找到比較好的源頭而且即使高雲我也沒有說要去凍結高雲預算因為有一些如果可以很簡單的解決問題比如說就跟我們講了那當初跟我們講了以後我馬上打電話回去說跟高雲講一下結果那個不到一天就已經上來了"},{"start":9188.078,"end":9188.098,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":9206.539,"end":9208.821,"text":"謝謝機關代表的說明還是跟委員會報告今天我們的報告事項第三案到第七案"},{"start":9224.798,"end":9254.118,"text":"都是基於上次在凍結解凍案要處理的時候因為有委員有不同意見要求提供更進一步的資料所以呢今天司法院也提供了相關的資料放在報告事項第2案的查照案但是查照案委員能有意見所以本委員會沒有辦法受理所以呢接下來第3案到第7案的報告事項等於就接受委員會的異議就都不予處理我們另定期處理"},{"start":9255.379,"end":9275.636,"text":"現在剛剛資訊處長的報告是討論事項的第一案那討論事項第一案是上次委員會也是黃委員有提出一些指教要求要進行說明那我想資訊處剛剛是口頭的說明但是您的書面補充了意見那因為還是有委員表示不予接受"},{"start":9276.957,"end":9297.998,"text":"是不接受不看你提供的補充資料來處理上次是要看你的補充資料再來進行處理那你補充的資料現在補充的不看那我們要處理那由於呢剛剛有委員提出異議仍有意見所以討論事項預算解凍案做如下決議本案另定期繼續處理"},{"start":9302.383,"end":9321.091,"text":"好!那麼現在我們進行討論事項第二案繼續審查司法院函請審議行政法院組織法部分條文修正草案。前今113年11月25日本會期本會第16次全體委員會議報告及詢答完畢決議另定期繼續審查。源於今日繼續審查提案條文遷移宣讀完畢。"},{"start":9322.452,"end":9340.598,"text":"好 那麼現在呢由於提案條文已經宣讀完畢了我們現在進行討論那請委員提有沒有什麼要詢問在場委員本案是否要先進行大體討論還是直接進入逐條審查那委員會的意見如何來請 王航委員"},{"start":9342.955,"end":9359.087,"text":"上次這個行政法院組織法我詢答的時候我就請教你們考試院所提出來的意見那個考試院今天有代表來嗎?今天有請考試院的代表來嗎?"},{"start":9361.826,"end":9386.597,"text":"我們今天剛剛已經跟委員會說明了今天的列席機關代表名冊目前有全序部兩位一位是法規司料專門委員一位是全審司的臨檢論視察是不是請考試院說明一下因為你們上次針對這種聘用的是不是可以有關等你們有提出你們考試院書面的意見嗎"},{"start":9387.897,"end":9408.842,"text":"我是看了你們書面的意見了以後我就覺得很狐疑啊考試院的立場已經白紙黑字寫得這麼明確了那司法院是不知道還是決定要無視還是考試院現在司法院有去溝通那考試院願意在這個地方放特例是不是可以說明一下"},{"start":9410.749,"end":9422.774,"text":"因為黃委員的這樣的詢問應該是屬於大體討論的部分那是不是請我們全序部是廖專委還是凌檢視察要做說明那等一等 翁委員先詢問 那請一併 待會一併說明"},{"start":9425.154,"end":9439.471,"text":"是我想請教我有一個問題啦就說因為稅務審查事件法還是稅務審查案件法這個法案我們都還沒有審但可是呢現在又要審這個行政法院組織法要增加稅務審查官"},{"start":9441.433,"end":9459.278,"text":"邏輯上面會不會這個不通因為應該是要稅務審查事件法那邊可能那邊要先審查通過之後然後再來討論這個才有意義啊否則我們現在今天這個討論行政法院組織法要增加這個稅務稅務審查官結果最後這個稅務行政事件審理法沒有通過這不是很怪"},{"start":9466.36,"end":9468.422,"text":"因為今天我們的條文修正部分包括這個章名8個修正條文包括兩個副表"},{"start":9482.515,"end":9505.967,"text":"那其中我們現在進行大體討論所以主席跟委員會做說明除了第10條第15條是跟稅務行政案件審理法沒有直接相關那其他的的確都是跟稅審法相關那由於稅審法在我們本委員會排審後已經完成了公聽會也進行了5條審查但是目前的狀況呢那就還是在審查當中有辦過公聽會嗎那請來黃委員"},{"start":9510.868,"end":9531.208,"text":"有辦過公聽會沒錯,但沒有進行主條審查吧。就是有辦過公聽會了。對啊,那現在的問題我覺得委員提的很有道理啊。你現在這個行政法院組織法,基本上就是配合稅審法來一起做修正。那我們現在不可能把它割離做處理啊。"},{"start":9533.14,"end":9549.065,"text":"我們完全不可能把它割離做處理所以我是直接提議今天這個行政法院的組織法等到設審法排案的時候一併做審查那要不然這樣子的審查真的根本欠缺最原始的基礎"},{"start":9550.725,"end":9568.817,"text":"謝謝黃委員的指教所以我剛剛已經主席有宣布了嘛今天的這一張名八條文二副表當中的第十條跟第十五條是跟稅審法無關它這裡面的內容呢關於第十條是對於法官助理法官助理禁用法官助理的規定"},{"start":9569.737,"end":9596.417,"text":"增加約用人員第15條也是一樣最高行政法院領選禁用法官助理的規定這兩條跟稅審法無關還是要跟我們說明因為本席是在上週五才接獲倫茲召委吳宗憲委員他的提議因為他的身體情況希望今天的會議跟本週式的會議改由本席來代為就是對調我們的主席"},{"start":9597.694,"end":9621.112,"text":"的程序所以我今天呢是臨時在星期五呢排定了這個條文就是行政法院組織法那成如委員會有委員表達其他的相關條文都跟我們委員會審議當中的稅成法相關所以呢是不是我們建議今天是處理第10條跟第15條看委員會的意見因為現在還在大體討論的部分來請黃委員"},{"start":9623.584,"end":9624.084,"text":"謝謝因為條文內容我們委員會過去也經常有這樣的情況"},{"start":9643.564,"end":9665.394,"text":"那如果我們今天能夠有對於不相跟稅審法無關的第10條跟第15條純粹是高等行政法院跟最高行政法院領選禁用法官助理的規定先予通過那我們下次的其他條文再由配合稅審法一併審理那委員會覺得如何那請"},{"start":9667.421,"end":9690.31,"text":"是行政法院組織如果這樣的話不是也是浪費大家的時間因為等於說下一次還要再針對其他的條文再談一次對因為如果說當時這個法案是第10條第15條他是就是獨立的一個法案那我覺得這樣子的運作會比較清楚而且也比較有效率那我們今天浪費了花很多時間討論了第10條第15條他們也不可能先送出去嗎還是按依照您的意思變成說還是要等到"},{"start":9696.392,"end":9721.806,"text":"這個其他的條文都審查通過之後才可以一併送出是嗎我還是在這強調因為本次會期本來預算會期就會用時間大部分的時間來處理預算案那麼由於本主席召委輪值的預算案都已經審議完畢現在吳召委請我接手今天的議程我也不可能去處理"},{"start":9725.651,"end":9729.696,"text":"吳釗偉分配預算案的審理是基於釗偉互相尊重的原則"},{"start":9731.55,"end":9757.181,"text":"主席只能就我所負責的機關範圍的解凍案以及法律案的審議那剛剛已經說過了我們委員會呢要日有所進那今天這個案子了解委員會了解的是除了第10條第15條都跟稅審法有關但畢竟日期有功啊我們第10條如果第15條處理了那後續再安排不管哪位召委安排審、稅審法"},{"start":9758.682,"end":9765.831,"text":"可能是下個會期了,我也不清楚那麼審稅審法的時候其他的條文就可以並同來審議還是有達到節約的效果還有跟委員說明我們剛剛大部分的時間在處理查詔案現在才進行討論事項第二案的處理"},{"start":9773.399,"end":9799.653,"text":"所以是不是要就第10條跟第15條如果大家覺得大致上沒有意見我們下次如果跟稅審法併案審理的時候這第10條第15條我們就不用再審理了那還是跟委員說明今天我們的主條不會進入到送出委員會的程度請放心我們主席在主持的時候一定充分尊重我們委員會的表示意見那我想既然大家來了"},{"start":9800.413,"end":9810.243,"text":"那我們上午的會議時間到12點之前是否同意我們繼續就第10條第15條與稅審法無關的條文我們先來進行討論來請黃總長而為此本來的建議等到稅審法進來的時候再一併處理以上"},{"start":9820.935,"end":9838.373,"text":"請問其他委員是否有意見?黃委員基本上我也附議黃委員的看法主要是因為下個會期也不知道是不是中委員您繼續擔任召委所以如果說在下個會期不同的召委的時候可能又要重新再討論一遍那這樣的話我覺得也是"},{"start":9841.796,"end":9868.984,"text":"就是我們今天討論這個變得沒有很大的意義而且可能也沒有達到實質的效果但我們早上其實討論預算案也花了蠻多時間今天大家都蠻盡力的所以就這個部分就今天的行政法院組織法我也基本上認為說我們就等到之後再來討論等到稅審法那裡有更清楚的這個進度了之後我們再來討論這個案子然後也讓司法院的同仁們可以早點回去辦公啊"},{"start":9872.142,"end":9892.148,"text":"對不起王委員你最後一句話我就不太理解了今天大家來這裡就是要進我們委員會審查的一個義務那司法院機關代表他們也是配合本院的審查他們必須列席那現在呢我們過去對於我們委員會寶貴的時間我們都要做有效的運用那現在還未達12點"},{"start":9893.388,"end":9920.683,"text":"那因為呢也有其他委員今天撥控就是按照我們的議程就來審查法案那明明第10條第15條就跟稅審法無關那大家如果還是執意要提早下課那我也只能尊重委員會多數委員的一個的決定啦但是我還是要強調的今天大家不是常常說嗎今天來到委員會我們就盡我們的職責來進行法案的審議我還是提醒"},{"start":9921.403,"end":9939.421,"text":"本來本周不是主席輪值召委所要來處理的那因此本席所預定要安排的相關的程序是在明年所要進行處理那竟然今天主席這邊安排的這個法案還是懇請委員會能夠就無爭議的條文"},{"start":9942.444,"end":9962.175,"text":"我們可以有效的運用寶貴的會議時間將它審理完均那至於其他條文不管是本會期的研會時間還是臨時會期間臨時會恐怕就不一定了那研會可能還有機會處理或者是下個會期由當時的召委他們再來拍案審查那至少"},{"start":9962.935,"end":9990.282,"text":"本席在主持本會期的會議時間我們沒有做浪費我們真的就是把我們該做的事情做完交給後面的人去後續處理那我也是盡了我們的本分至少我們今天日有所盡我們就有進度了請問陳委員或其他委員有沒有對於第10條或第15條希望了解我們機關代表他們的修法意見"},{"start":9993.615,"end":10015.06,"text":"好主席那個如果說第10條跟第15條跟稅審法是無關的話我們是不是因為還有大概40幾分的時間是不是先可以就這兩條先來做這個初步的了解一下那我想如果我們在本日會議時間屆滿前我們繼續進行審議應該與會的委員都會同意啦我們來請"},{"start":10022.306,"end":10031.361,"text":"說明一下剛剛已經有兩位委員對於要繼續先抽離兩條出來處理表示不同的看法請主席尊重"},{"start":10032.427,"end":10032.967,"text":"請主席尊重"},{"start":10060.23,"end":10085.205,"text":"好 謝謝來羅委員請表示意見我覺得齁各有其理啦但是基本上跟稅審法一起來是比較符合邏輯啦所以我也想說當然企業辛苦召委齁因為吳宗憲委員他眼睛有突發的狀況他沒有辦法來呃召集今天的會議齁所以也很感謝宗嘉賓召委齁代替就跟吳宗憲委員換次序齁"},{"start":10086.266,"end":10093.959,"text":"既然這邊也沒有達成共識那就按照這邊多數的委員的意見來處理以上請主席參佐"},{"start":10096.462,"end":10124.725,"text":"好跟委員說明因為本委員會的慣例我們盡量的來配合遵守預算審議我們盡量採共識決那也很感謝預算審議到目前為止不管是吳宗憲召集委員還是本主席我們都是用共識決但是議程的推進現在是法案的審查那如果說大家對於法條的內容願意做一個共識的方式提報到院會"},{"start":10126.326,"end":10152.709,"text":"主席這邊也會尊重但是今天是就今日議程是否繼續推動有不同意見那我們就要做議程上的處理了因為我們本討論事項是第二案那本討論事項的條文目前本來還在大體討論的範圍但是呢有委員認為儘管裡面第10條第15條跟稅審法無關仍然可以處理但是仍然有委員表達"},{"start":10153.65,"end":10179.74,"text":"希望今天全部的行政法院組織法全部的不予處理那就是對議程推進的不同意見所以主席就要進行議程的處理了那麼因為議程今天的討論事項就是這一案現在處理這一案那如果不打算討論下去那是否有委員要動議停止討論那我們本主席就會按照議事推動的方式來徵詢"},{"start":10186.368,"end":10197.276,"text":"沒有人要提停止討論那沒有人要停止討論我們就繼續討論那繼續討論那我們就請主席這邊就第10條的部分我們請機關代表做說明"},{"start":10205.658,"end":10221.535,"text":"沒有人要停止討論啊我跟大家說啦今天已經非常過去在這本委員會是誰在提停止討論動議的是誰不到時間就急著要散會的這些程序的問題過去在本委員會多有爭議"},{"start":10222.734,"end":10246.226,"text":"最後都是訴諸表決處理如果連停止討論連散會動議都不敢提出來就要在12點之前我們法定開會時間就要提早下課去處理其他個人的事情還是其他政黨的事情我想原用我們在場委員有的常說的現在我們看到的轉播很多全國的民眾都在看"},{"start":10247.202,"end":10264.008,"text":"立法院：立法委員支應國家公帑有沒有盡責的在進行他的立法相關的職權業務那今天現在11點22分目前我們首投的這一案子是本日議程討論事項第二案也是最後一個案子明明有時間"},{"start":10265.595,"end":10292.922,"text":"委員不願意討論那又不提停止討論又不提上會動議主席只好遵照主席應有的職權提請機關代表就本案有共識跟稅審法無關的第10條跟第15條請機關代表先說明再請委員表示意見來王委員請剛剛主席喔說得非常的好我們都在領人民的公帑"},{"start":10294.557,"end":10315.724,"text":"不得在領人民的公帑所以我們幾位委員從早上9點開始開會做到這裡請問我們幾位委員所提的意見認為行政法院組織法應該司法院是整個提來這邊不太適合抽離兩條出來討論這樣子的"},{"start":10319.4,"end":10340.092,"text":"建議被我們剛剛的會議主席把他說明成說是什麼我們要急著下班那就對啊剛剛主席講得很好啊那就請大家看看嘛從今天早上9點到現在哪些委員在現場嘛哪些委員是連來都沒來啊連來都沒來啊現在坐在現場的委員"},{"start":10347.287,"end":10371.382,"text":"要糟蹋我們的主席這樣冷言冷語對不起啊我沒辦法接受啊大家看清楚嘛不用九點坐到這邊我離開的時候主席說什麼他喊休息喊休息的是主席喔按照你的規定喊了休息我跑去經濟委員會人事同意權的審查"},{"start":10372.745,"end":10391.176,"text":"我完成了主委跟副主委的審查今天反而有很多在經濟跟司法法制委員會聯席同意權的是連問都沒有去問的我利用休息的時間完成了兩場人事同意權的審查反而到本委員會來繼續開會"},{"start":10393.815,"end":10412.983,"text":"結果我剛剛跟其他的委員的提議行政院法院組織法我們反對這樣割裂處理主持剛剛在發言的時候把它講成什麼講成我們好像要提早下班太可笑了那如果是這樣子的話大家看清楚啊從早上9點到現在幾點啊11點25啊是哪些委員連現身都沒現身啊"},{"start":10419.824,"end":10432.397,"text":"都只要看清楚,從早上9點到現在11點25是哪些委員連現身都沒現身從第一個報告事項的案子到現在討論事項的案子連出席都不出席"},{"start":10435.54,"end":10462.459,"text":"跟委員說明剛剛委員的發言充分說明了今天本會委員同一時間有經濟委員會跟司法法制委員會聯席的審查至於委員要選擇先到哪一個他應該去的委員會去進行職權這是委員會各自先後順序剛剛發言的委員也說明了他也抽空去聯席委員會表達意見了那麼今天我們也看到了有非本會委員到場"},{"start":10463.88,"end":10478.957,"text":"那今天委員會是對全院委員公開委員只要在立法院院內只要8個委員會有排定議程每位委員都有權利去執行他的職權所交付的任務"},{"start":10479.938,"end":10507.571,"text":"那麼至於現在在不在場的委員他是否同一時間在其他委員會我們主席這邊不敢斷論所以呢我還是要提醒目前我們在12點上午法定時間用慶之前我們有時間那如果有委員認為主席依照既定的議程推進有不同意見大家可以透過變更議程的方式來進行表達主席在這裡尊重委員會的決定"},{"start":10509.032,"end":10510.133,"text":"請問翁委員要發言嗎?請本席今天提出來這個案子之所以建議先暫時不審的原因就在於"},{"start":10520.759,"end":10523.482,"text":"稅審法到現在為止我們也還沒有進入到主條討論所以是給主席一個建議而且當時稅審法我記得也是您朋友排公聽會如果說今天我們是真的想要審這個行政法院組織法的話也可以把稅審法也可以先排進來審"},{"start":10539.238,"end":10546.501,"text":"所以這都是全責都是這個主席您的這個議程的安排只是我們認為說現在審這個行政法院組織法它的確是會產生一個割裂的狀況更何況我們今天就算是審了這兩個條文到了下個會期同樣的可能下一次的總召又不認我們今天的討論"},{"start":10559.085,"end":10563.647,"text":"所以重複的一直在討論這個法案那麼更何況我們今天早上和幾位委員都是從早就做到這邊做到現在我們也審了預算案那麼接下來也針對法案的到底要不要繼續去審理進行討論那麼我認為"},{"start":10578.712,"end":10580.814,"text":"張偉說我們沒有盡責,浪費公帑,想提前散會。我覺得您這樣的發言是很不適當的。我們來看看這個會期"},{"start":10594.79,"end":10599.996,"text":"科建民總召他有一次有到過我們司委會來開會嗎?對,我們也是體諒說他老人家身體不好,腳不方便。那麼如果這樣講的話,他從這個會期到現在他都沒有進到我們司委會來開過會耶。"},{"start":10612.082,"end":10614.724,"text":"是不是?這個話不能這麼說,我們今天是要想說是針對行政法院組織法的這兩個,這個這些條文,您剛剛說的第10條、第15條,就算是討論了。那之後呢?之後是下一個會期,這個可能要重新要再來過。"},{"start":10630.11,"end":10642.002,"text":"到底要不要停止討論要不要散會這件事情當然是主席您這裡就可以做主啊那如果說是您不想要變更議程"},{"start":10645.491,"end":10662.911,"text":"繼續討論那我們就是就是現在這樣一個狀態然後大家就可以針對這個案子討論的與否適當性來進行討論就沒有什麼太大的這個作用了這部分的話我是要這個要求就是"},{"start":10665.277,"end":10685.444,"text":"主席您剛剛的那樣發言基本上是不公平不公允的我們今天那麼多的委員坐在這裡那民進黨的委員從頭到尾只有陳俊宇委員一個人坐在這裡後來賴委員也來了可是不能說因為我們說要暫時停止討論的這個案子然後你就說我們又浪費你提議要暫時停止討論嗎先等大家討論完之後再說所以你同意繼續討論謝謝委員同意繼續討論這個部分的話是你這邊"},{"start":10694.995,"end":10722.46,"text":"王委員你又不要繼續討論先請等大家把話都發言完之後呢再說我是接續你的發言那先做說明我們立法院是屆期不連續不是會期不連續所以在屆期當中的不同會期所做的委員會的審查在當屆期都是持續有效的憑此說明那接下來是不是那個羅委員要發言嗎然後拜託那個陳委員待會我要發言請謝謝"},{"start":10725.799,"end":10747.677,"text":"其實真的是給主席一個勸告啦我真的你不要這樣洗臉無私謠這樣不好為什麼呢今天我們沒有拿像我就不會拿什麼在場委員不想開會這件事做文章就像你講的嘛每個委員會委員在審案的時候像今天也有聯席委員會啊"},{"start":10748.617,"end":10776.943,"text":"每個委員他們有自己的一個排程到底要怎麼做所以今天我覺得我也不會拿吳思堯不在場來做文章可是你今天竟然說我們實際上在討論的這個處理議程的方式好像又是變成是我們不想開會當薪水小偷那你不是做主席你這樣子去定性別人不就是節外生枝嗎那如果你不是節外生枝那我只能解讀你跟吳思堯有仇啊那為什麼吳思堯不在的時候你要特別提這個題目呢"},{"start":10777.463,"end":10802.174,"text":"所以我跟主席是勸告啦就是說你主持意識齁這個情緒也好或是立場也好還是要保持一點中立性啦那我剛剛已經講過我也沒說你講的不對嘛我說你的你要所謂的包裹式對不對齁要切割式齁你要去來去看這個法案但是實際上今天審的法案裡面就是主要就有談到稅審法的部分"},{"start":10802.714,"end":10821.63,"text":"那我們認為今天為了所謂的體系上以及我們在思考法律的規章上的所謂的那種效益跟一致性來講我覺得其實等到稅審法今天有進度之後或是你優先把稅審法先把它進度處理完之後我們並同今天的法案一起處理"},{"start":10822.991,"end":10836.326,"text":"我也不認為這個道理沒有站不住腳啊那既然你要講你一定要堅持你的道理站得住腳那你也不要說今天別人提出的道理之後就是變成是今天我不想開會我想回家休息我想要當薪水小偷了"},{"start":10838.709,"end":10863.82,"text":"那你剛剛到這種程度來講其實你就失去主席中立性嘛我才說今天我就覺得很奇怪啊你如果不是因為你就是有點情緒上的問題失去主席中立性那我就很好奇是不是你跟吳思堯有仇啊你為什麼要在這個吳思堯不在的時候特別去提薪水小偷這種概念啊大家不想開會這種概念這種概念這樣的話我們三個在那邊開會那吳思堯在那邊開會你不是打臉他了我還是要強調一件事喔"},{"start":10867.381,"end":10882.822,"text":"我沒有拿這個事做文章但是是你拿這個事做文章我就要講標準不一致啊因為我就要尊重每個委員在委員會上大家的一個安排的一個方式嘛那今天你不能挑著吳士堯不在使用這種方式我為吳士堯抱屈啊謝謝"},{"start":10884.303,"end":10901.651,"text":"謝謝羅委員我們主席都尊重委員的發言內容那也請羅委員記得您的這番話那主席只是說既然目前有在場的多數委員認為有多數的優勢那你要停止討論要散會都悉聽尊便主席已經遵照多數的決議那現在我請那個陳委員代理一下我要做第10條跟第15條的一個發言"},{"start":10916.569,"end":10944.359,"text":"好 謝謝主席那麼因為第10條是高等行政法院製法官以及他這裡的條文內容主要是法官助理的部分那第15條也是就最高行政法院的法官助理的部分進行這些條文的修正是否因為現在大陸討論時間是否能夠請機關代表分別就第10條及第15條未來對於高等行政法院跟最高行政法院的運作上會有什麼樣的需求請進行說明"},{"start":10946.493,"end":10946.513,"text":"請蜂擬雙"},{"start":10950.406,"end":10974.296,"text":"有關於第10條還有第15條草案的修正這個其實立法那個意旨主要是讓法官助理的禁用可以多元化因為我們現在是只有聘用然後希望可以再增加約用這個途徑那在我國的法院它有普通法院跟行政法院這兩個系統那其實相關的這個規定"},{"start":10978.018,"end":10997.359,"text":"在法院組織法113年11月29日通過已經有相同的規定我們現在是在行政法院組織法也就是行政法院系統加上相同的規定這以上說明"},{"start":11000.53,"end":11002.431,"text":"好請忠教兵召委好請副秘書長"},{"start":11030.275,"end":11043.507,"text":"主席這部分是容我請那個主管的那個廳長來說明好請我們李大任廳長嗎好請我們陳介廳陳廳長司法行政廳我們高廳長"},{"start":11053.073,"end":11066.826,"text":"主席好各位委員好那有關這個法官助理的聘用跟約用的區別呢簡單來跟各位委員說明就是聘用呢他會佔用我們的原額就是中央政府機關總原額法中所規定的原額那約用呢他是用勞基法來雇用的"},{"start":11073.032,"end":11076.594,"text":"使用的經費,聘用是用人事費,約用是用業務費。在契約的性質來看,我們聘用法官助理是一年一聘。約用的法官助理就是依照勞基法的規定,他可能有臨時性、短期性、季節性、特定性的話是定期契約,有繼續性的話就是不定期契約。"},{"start":11100.047,"end":11111.597,"text":"有關契約的期間,依照聘用條例第5條,也可以來做續聘。約用的法官助理,除了勞基法所規定的情形之外,原則上是不得終止契約。"},{"start":11115.498,"end":11139.454,"text":"另外呢,就這個年資可不可以提敘的部分呢,聘用的法官助理呢,他改任公務員之後,他的年資是可以提敘的,那月用法官助理沒有這樣的規定。那再來就是有關這個,如果在契約期間併顧或者是因公傷亡的部分,撫恤金的部分呢,這個聘用的法官助理可以依照這個聘用"},{"start":11140.174,"end":11140.695,"text":"請莊嘉斌召委"},{"start":11157.545,"end":11180.092,"text":"主席我所知道的目前法院用法柱不是只有行政法院而已那事實上其實雖然表面上這是行政法院組織法第10條第15條對於高等行政法院跟最高行政法院禁用法柱的禁用方式的多一個路徑那事實上牽涉到的是全體我們司法院所屬各級法院在法"},{"start":11180.532,"end":11180.952,"text":"主管委員會主管委員會主管委員會"},{"start":11198.061,"end":11214.107,"text":"那如果這個禁用的管道是可行的那未來在稅審法我們的這個稅務專業法庭他在禁用相關人力的時候也可以援引辦理他的重要性絕對不是一個行政法院組織法部分條文兩個條文的問題而已他牽涉到的是我們"},{"start":11219.028,"end":11247.967,"text":"司法院所有全體的法院在禁用法官助理的時候是多了一個約用的方式可以進行而約用跟聘用人員他們在相關的權益法律保障法律保障的權益上是有差別的他們身份屬性也有差別的剛剛陳儒說明的情況他們在未來的差勤、試駕、試病駕的管理一些的權益呢都是有差別的那如果不把這個差別予以的法治化"},{"start":11248.467,"end":11264.553,"text":"那未來法官助理在禁用就會受到這個限制那也不能有不同的需求的人員進來有些因應著約用跟聘用身份的差異所做的這些差別所以我要強調的就是說今天這10條第15條如果能夠在委員會裡面予以肯認"},{"start":11269.255,"end":11294.406,"text":"那未來我們司法院其他法院的組織法如果要對於法官助理的部分多開闢一個約用的管道將會是我們不只是法官的減輕法官的負擔也是能夠提升我們的訴訟品質更重要的可以增進我們全體國人在接受司法服務的時候他能得到的一個相對應的待遇"},{"start":11295.066,"end":11312.947,"text":"所以這個法座的爭取不是單純的幫人家找工作也不是單純的減輕法官的負擔是提升我們全體國民他們在司法訴訟上應得的品質所以呢我覺得今天在委員會審理這第10條第15條非常的重要如果這兩條能夠委員會能夠肯認"},{"start":11316.01,"end":11342.768,"text":"那我剛剛講的未來法院禁用其他的法柱就多了一條路甚至我們現在專業法庭要使用其他聘用人員以外的約用性質的人員也多了一個選擇對我們整體司法人力的補充是有非常重要的貢獻我還是要強調的儘管現在社會民眾對於我們司法審判有不同的評價但是無異的大家的共識就是目前我們司法院包括法官書記官等等他們的過勞是一個事實"},{"start":11346.27,"end":11346.49,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":11368.145,"end":11392.373,"text":"現在司法法制委員會另外最多數的兩黨的委員不在場但是我相信儘管他們不在場今天你們的說明其他委員的一些的詢問都有助於國人同胞瞭解我們在改善提升我們司法訴訟品質保障國人司法權益我們所做的努力所以我希望你們待會的解釋一定要把這個部分的強加的說明"},{"start":11392.933,"end":11397.076,"text":"好,針對莊嘉斌召委所推行的部分那我們是請司法院相關部會的首長可以做一個強加的一個說明"},{"start":11422.27,"end":11438.304,"text":"我們非常感謝那個中委員對於這兩條那個條文就是他對於整個制度所發生這個變革的那個支持那確實就是因為我們在那個總額法的那個限制底下呢就是我們那個就是除了這個聘用"},{"start":11438.984,"end":11440.085,"text":"司法院人事處補充報告"},{"start":11463.72,"end":11464.02,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11484.375,"end":11509.021,"text":"目前的聘用的法官助理他是必須佔用機關總原額的然後但是呢如果是在修正條文約用法官助理他是不需要佔用機關原額的對那因為在前者聘用法官助理這部分呢他在佔用機關原額的情況之下那因為我們現在的這個法官呢我們配置法官助理的方式是每一個法官一定會有一個法官助理"},{"start":11510.882,"end":11524.335,"text":"警長或審判長三位有配一個法官助理所以我們全國2290幾位法官現在的法官助理用聘用方式是1924人那等於是說佔我們這個機關總額的將近是十分之一就是我們現在14000多人來講的話那所以呢這個情況"},{"start":11533.044,"end":11543.515,"text":"如果說跟隨著審判核心人力的增加那相較於這個輔助人力它勢必也會相對應的提高可是在原額非常有限的情況之下像我們今年在114年預算原額編列完畢之後我們的整個機關總原額的上限只剩下264人那其實這個在我們進來因為我們從108年底"},{"start":11556.167,"end":11577.693,"text":"那個第一波的這個中央監管總原額提高以後我們有大量的要禁用這個法官所以我們有提報考試那提報考試之後就相對的就要禁用法官助理所以如果在這樣一個循環循環的情況之下那原額又在有限的一個高限那很快的我們的法官可能就會沒有法官助理那沒有法官助理就會影響到剛剛招集員提到的有關於人民對於訴訟的這個禁用權還有"},{"start":11584.375,"end":11585.016,"text":"司法院組織法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":11604.608,"end":11627.751,"text":"我們會慢慢的去替換就是說將這個控下來的聘用的法官助理這部分的員額可以再回流到審判核心人力或者其他的審判這個比較靠近核心的周邊人力比方說像司法事務官那這樣子對於整個司法系統的人力運用是一個相當有助益的一個禁用方式"},{"start":11628.671,"end":11648.027,"text":"好,謝謝陳處長的說明,重點就是什麼,現在如果只有聘用人員的管道,這些聘用人員主要佔寶貴的機關員額,而機關員額最好是用來聘用法官、書記官等這些公務人力,那至於助理人力可以用約用的方式來禁用,就不會佔用到我們寶貴的機關員,是這個意思嗎?"},{"start":11650.609,"end":11662.358,"text":"現在證券委員意見,如果大家對於第10條跟第15條部分認為重要,那麼是不是我們就從廣泛討論當中抽出我們第10條跟第15條進行逐條討論?請問第10條的逐條討論大家同意嗎?同意,那麼第10條如果逐條討論沒有其他不同意見,我們第10條就叫修正條文通過。接下來我們處理第15條,第15條請問在場我們進行逐條討論,請問對15條有其他討論意見嗎?"},{"start":11678.612,"end":11682.374,"text":"沒有,那我們第15條就按照我們修正條文內容通過。好,由於上午會議時間將屆,那麼本次會議進行到此。那麼討論事項第二案做如下決議,另定期繼續審查。現在散會,謝謝大家。"},{"start":11704.963,"end":11706.345,"text":"法定人數不足"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}