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包括台灣Plus"},{"start":169.494,"end":196.343,"text":"新聞遭受到政治的干擾非常嚴重而且我們台灣還有媒體的公共討論見區極端他說他本來對台灣是非常熱愛的我們台灣的這個公共的這個論壇討論啊是非常理性而且非常熱情的可是現在變成一個極端了所以他就回英國去這兩個問題都非常非常嚴重那為什麼會這麼嚴重我們來找這個病因好不好來我們看下一張"},{"start":199.141,"end":226.224,"text":"他的問題出在哪邊他本來是一個要發展國際數位傳播計劃對不對這個是經過國發會審議行政院核定的計劃好 主委現在來到你的專業了他沒有任何的量化指標你會怕這個對不對這多嚴重一個事情政府用人民納稅錢將近"},{"start":228.368,"end":245.332,"text":"將近100億結果他的施政的這個目標裡面要怎麼達到他的成績單怎麼樣有具體的量化指標沒有來先看左邊110年的時候到113年他提出從那八大這個議題的這個績效諸位一個"},{"start":250.371,"end":278.655,"text":"連一個量化的指標都沒有就是我要做到什麼 你說你要做到多少成功我們人民納稅錢給你的 你要有什麼樣的計畫達到什麼樣的這個目標一個都沒有這個以前的國發會跟行政院出了問題文化部也出了問題到了今年114年到117年又花40億結果八項變成兩項更嚴重的我給大家看一個"},{"start":280.432,"end":305.757,"text":"審計部啊 在去年的2月份審計部跳出來了他說你施政一定要先有計畫 對不對有一個很具體的指標嘛 量化的指標嘛竟然都沒有連審計部都講話了結果後來文化部說他自己要訂我發現一個大問題了他訂了以後"},{"start":306.96,"end":335.812,"text":"非常的不明確來注意我給你看一個東西很重要行政院所屬各機關中長程個案計畫編審的這個要點就是說你要用人民的納稅錢你國家往前有進步的就像台灣plus你要發展國際的世衛傳播好那你的計畫目標你一定要具體的說明而且盡量要產出型或者是成果效益型的指標就是要一個量化的指標嘛結果都沒有"},{"start":337.45,"end":360.518,"text":"這是不是國化會現在應該加強的地方所以對不對是不是馬上要做檢討的地方對因為跟委員跟委員報告說這一個案子是我們的那個百億基金的一職那是由文化部來負責那文化部他自己本身有有一個管理委員會在在在做那基本上由影視局進行徵選"},{"start":363.179,"end":388.979,"text":"主委不好意思我今天本來應該很尊重你讓你把話講完不過因為時間很有限我提醒一個事情不要把責任推給文化部文化部做該做的現在更嚴重我現在跟你講更重要的我說為什麼你的位置這麼重要我們大家對你有期待國發會的角色一定要充分發揮我今天講的是非常具體的你看要盡量以產出型跟成果效益型為指標要有量化的指標"},{"start":390.42,"end":415.629,"text":"這個就是你要做的事情了可是國發會到現在沒有做我現在具體的要求你回去重新去檢討好不好要求文化部跟台灣Plus你用人民納稅錢100億喔目前出了這麼多問題你是學經濟的嘛對不對你現在把它這個量化的指標把它很具體的寫出來你到底要達成什麼目標而且要快我跟你講我現在審預算對不對"},{"start":417.472,"end":441.799,"text":"立法院審議算一定先看到計畫嘛看他到底要達成多大的這個量化的這個目標嘛對不對這個東西現在沒有那這樣台灣帕拉斯今年的議狀我就沒辦法審喔好不好我們會跟文化部討論就是說怎麼樣來來進進這一個部分各位我今天只是舉這個例子更重要的現在政府螺絲釘掉滿地就是你現在要把那個螺絲釘要栓緊我今天提的是一個辦法如果是中長期的"},{"start":442.239,"end":465.854,"text":"你就要合乎量化的指標好不好你來了以後我希望台灣的政府是有改變的這會努力 好不好好 另外一個也是很重要的這個寧日公籍為你國發基金出的 投資的用了人民的納稅錢啦1.1億每次有事情發生是國發會出去了出現了一堆問題出現了一堆問題"},{"start":471.365,"end":483.135,"text":"我從五月份開始追這個十月份我還請你們給我一個內容的說明結果你們要踢給文化部 就跟你剛剛講的是一樣的"},{"start":487.216,"end":509.034,"text":"第一個不要踢啤酒好不好這是一個不要文化部踢給國泡會國泡會又踢回去要勇於去認識好不好特別是文化部講得很清楚他說他實施了一段時間以後他一定會把案子送到你們這邊來這個成果會送到你這邊嘛對不對你把這個成果好好地檢視一下好不好好來我們看一下凌日供給出了什麼問題"},{"start":511.601,"end":532.769,"text":"第一 人民納稅錢1.1億然後呢 影視權威啊他這個 他就平分啦 十分是八分結果出現啦 各位你看 高達八級就只有第一三分"},{"start":535.077,"end":562.833,"text":"這是非常前衛的 當然那個鄭克爽鄭克爽現在出來有一點在開玩笑跟消遣他說現在清秒都去灌那個分數啦分數有稍微高一點點不過大概是4到5最嚴重是因為我們人民那麼多人納稅錢收視率那麼差 這是一個更嚴重的方恩格 這是一個非常有名的政論評論家他說什麼來我們看他怎麼講寧日公集最後竟然是以步槍擊退"},{"start":565.148,"end":587.568,"text":"大陸的解放軍的艦隊跟艦隊你記性怎麼編到這麼遠 收視率又差然後呢一堆都是力營的導演 力營的相關的力友友得力然後呢黑熊學院的得力欸 連這個攻擊裡面還出現黑熊學院在幫忙訓練民防"},{"start":591.192,"end":614.415,"text":"你這樣怎麼對得起人民呢那你從國發基金出去每一分錢都是人民的納稅錢耶好不好 所以指委請針對零日供給這個事情我覺得應該應該要好好做一個檢討包括以後你們要投資上次那個劉指委有答應我了以後不要以後投資是投資公司不要去投資單獨的"},{"start":616.314,"end":622.26,"text":"一個句好不好我這上次有答應我的你要做就不能改革好不好最後我用大概30秒時間那個強化國發基金的監督"},{"start":627.526,"end":645.577,"text":"我們台灣民眾黨有那時候特別發起所以在立法院裡組成的國發基金有沒有產生弊案的這個調查委員會這個調查報告已經出來了諸位請你跟國發會的同仁好看一看好不好那我知道你非常有理想色彩你在拜訪我的時候你有想你要做一部分的改革我們今天時間有限好不好"},{"start":646.477,"end":661.534,"text":"你給我一份報告一個禮拜好不好把你準備在國發基金怎麼監督不要再產生弊案不要再浪費我們人民的納稅錢了另外已經產生過弊案了包括聯合再生如昕你怎麼解決我知道你有做的功課啦一個禮拜你給我一份報告好不好"},{"start":662.234,"end":680.434,"text":"那針對我剛講的前面那兩個非常嚴重的你趕快把他救回來不要讓他迷航了大概一個禮拜請跟文化部號討論一下做一個比較看你要怎麼把他抓回來正途好不好一定要有具體的量化的這個數據好不好那零四公集這個以後怎麼去改你大概一個禮拜給我一份報告可以嗎好 謝謝主委 加油謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":351,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（10時30分）謝謝主席，請葉主委。"],["主席：好，再請主委。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：委員早。"],["張委員啓楷：主委早。主委，你是很有名的經濟學者。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：當過中經院的院長，剛才主席提醒你，你不用緊張啦！你是很專業的，而且你現在到了這個位置。臺灣的政治碰到兩個非常嚴重的問題：第一個，政治凌駕專業，你有專業啊！所以我們希望你來了以後，不只國發會，我們整個國家的體制運作，專業可以提升上來，這是一個；第二個，就是因為政治性太強了，所以我們現在政府螺絲釘掉滿地，我希望你要扮演國發會很重要的角色，包括以前研考會已經納到你們國發會裡面了，對不對？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：對。"],["張委員啓楷：現在政府的研考做得老實講有些地方還要再加強一點，我希望你進來以後，要把那個螺絲釘拴得更緊一點。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好的。"],["張委員啓楷：我現在跟你談兩個很具體的個案：一個就是TaiwanPlus；一個就是「零日攻擊」的投資。TaiwanPlus是為了讓世界看到臺灣，它是一個中長期的計畫，8年要花我們人民納稅錢98億，將近100億，結果它出了什麼樣的問題？績效不彰，甚至連定位都不明，所以它施政目標迷航了，現在只有請國發會趕快把螺絲釘拴緊，可以把它這迷航救回來。我給大家看一下，在2025年6月5日天下雜誌做的專題報導，說TaiwanPlus的組織文化，編輯與採訪缺乏了臺灣觀念、定位不明。","簡報上的左邊這位是臺灣TaiwanPlus英國籍的前高層叫艾永清，這件事情鬧得非常大，他本來在臺灣發展得非常好、薪水也很高，他上個月買了一張單程的機票回英國去了，他說：我永遠離開臺灣了。他提了兩個點，也是非常重要的，他說包括TaiwanPlus新聞遭受到政治的干預非常嚴重，而且我們臺灣還有媒體的公共討論漸趨極端。他說他本來對臺灣是非常熱愛的，我們臺灣公共論壇的討論是非常理性而且非常熱情的，可是現在變成一個極端了，所以他就回英國去。這兩個問題都非常非常嚴重，為什麼會這麼嚴重，我們來找這個病因，好不好？它的問題出在哪邊？它本來是要發展國際數位傳播的一個計畫，TaiwanPlus是經過國發會審議及行政院核定的計畫，注意！現在來到你的專業了，它沒有任何的量化指標，你學經濟的嘛，對不對？這是多嚴重的事情，政府用將近100億的人民納稅錢，結果它的施政目標裡要怎麼達到它的成績單？怎麼樣有具體的量化指標？沒有。","在110年到113年，他提出有8大預期績效，主委，連一個量化的指標都沒有，就是你說你要做到多成功，我們人民納稅錢給你，你要有怎麼樣的計畫？要達到怎麼樣的目標？一個都沒有，以前的國發會跟行政院出了問題，文化部也出了問題，到了今年114年到117年又要花40億，結果8項變成2項。更嚴重的，在去年的2月份審計部跳出來了，他說：你施政一定要先有計畫，對不對？一定要有很具體的量化指標，竟然都沒有，連審計部都講話了，結果後來文化部說自己要訂。我發現一個大問題，他訂了以後，非常的不明確。注意！我給你看個很重要的東西，在「行政院所屬各機關中長程個案計畫編審要點」裡，倘若你要用人民的納稅錢，你國家往前有進步的，就像TaiwanPlus要發展國際的數位傳播，你的計畫目標要具體的說明，而且儘量要產出型或者是成果效益型的指標，要一個量化的指標嘛！結果都沒有。主委，這是不是國發會現在應該加強的地方，對不對？是不是馬上要做檢討的地方？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：對。跟委員報告，這個案子是我們百億基金的一支，是由文化部在負責。文化部自己本身有一個管理委員會在做，基本上由影視局進行徵選，包括審議的部分……"],["張委員啓楷：主委，不好意思。我今天本來應該要尊重你，讓你把話講完，不過因為時間很有限，我提醒一件事情，不要把責任推給文化部……"],["葉主任委員俊顯：不會。"],["張委員啓楷：文化部做該做的，現在更嚴重，我現在跟你講更重要的，為什麼你的位置這麼重要，我們大家對你有期待，國發會的角色一定要充分發揮，我今天講的都是非常具體的，你看要儘量以產出型跟成果效益型為指標，要有量化的指標，這就是你要做的事情了。可是國發會到現在沒有做，我現在具體的要求你回去重新檢討，好不好？要求文化部跟TaiwanPlus，他用人民納稅錢100億喔！目前出了這麼多問題，你是學經濟的嘛，對不對？你請他們把這量化的指標很具體的寫出來「到底要達成什麼目標？」而且要快，我跟你講，我現在審預算，立法院審預算一定先看到計畫嘛！看它到底要達成多大的量化目標嘛，對不對？這個東西現在沒有，那TaiwanPlus今年的預算我就沒辦法審喔，好不好？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好。我們會跟文化部討論，就是怎麼樣來精進這個部分。"],["張委員啓楷：主委，我今天只是舉這個例子，更重要的，現在政府螺絲釘掉滿地，就是你現在把那個螺絲釘要拴緊，我今天提的是一個辦法，如果是中長期的，你就要合乎量化的指標，好不好？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好。"],["張委員啓楷：你來了以後，我希望臺灣的政府是有改變的，一起努力好不好？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：好。另外，也是很重要的，「零日攻擊」從你們國發基金出來投資的，用了人民的納稅錢啊！1.1億中大概有4,000萬是國發會投資的，也出現了一堆問題，我從5月份開始追這件，10月份我還請你們給我一個內容的說明，結果你們又踢給文化部，跟你剛剛講的是一樣的，第一個，不要踢皮球，好不好？這是一個。不要文化部踢給國發會，國發會又踢回去，要勇於任事，好不好？特別是文化部講得很清楚，說他實施了一段時間以後，他一定會把案子送到你們那邊，這個成果會送來你那邊嘛，對不對？你把這個成果好好去檢視一下，好不好？","我們看一下「零日攻擊」出了什麼問題，第一個，花1.1億的人民納稅錢，在影視權威指數的評分裡，10分是滿分，主委，你看，結果出現高達八集低於3分，這是非常權威的，但那個政客爽有一點在開玩笑跟消遣，他說現在青鳥都去灌那個分數啦！分數有稍微高一點點，不過大概到4到5分，最嚴重是用我們人民那麼多的納稅錢，結果收視率那麼差。更嚴重的，這位方恩格是一位非常有名的政論評論家，他說什麼呢？我們看他怎麼講，「零日攻擊」最後居然是以步槍去擊退大陸解放軍的艦隊。劇情怎麼編到這麼離譜，收視率又差，然後一堆都是綠營的導演、綠營相關的綠友友得利，黑熊學院也得利，連「零日攻擊」裡面還出現黑熊學院在幫忙訓練民防，你這樣怎麼對得起人民呢？你從國發基金出去，每一分錢都是人民的納稅錢！好不好？主委，針對「零日攻擊」這個事情，我覺得應該要好好去做檢討，包括以後你們要投資，上次劉主委有答應我，以後投資是投資公司，不要去投資單獨的一個劇，好不好？這個是上次有答應我的，你要做這一部分的改革，好不好？","最後我用大概三十秒時間。關於強化國發基金的監督，我們台灣民眾黨有特別發起，所以在立法院也組成了國發基金有無產生弊案的調查委員會，這個調查報告已經出來了，主委，請你跟國發會的同仁好好看一看，好不好？我知道你非常具有理想，你拜訪我的時候有講你要做一部分的改革，我們今天時間有限，你給我一份報告，一個禮拜，好不好？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好。"],["張委員啓楷：就你準備在國發基金怎麼監督而不要再發生弊案，不要浪費人民的納稅錢了。另外，已經發生過弊案的包括聯合再生、如興，你要怎麼解決？我知道你有做功課了，一個禮拜給我一份報告，好不好？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好。"],["張委員啓楷：針對我剛剛講的前面那兩個非常嚴重的TaiwanPlus，你趕快把它救回來，不要讓它迷航了，大概一個禮拜請跟文化部好好討論一下，做一個比較，看你要怎麼把它抓回來正途，好不好？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：會。"],["張委員啓楷：一定要有具體的量化數據，好不好？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：因為對於……"],["張委員啓楷：「零日攻擊」這個以後怎麼去改，大概一個禮拜給我一份報告，可以嗎？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好，可以。"],["張委員啓楷：好，謝謝主委，加油。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝張啓楷委員的詢答。接下來請鄭天財委員，請做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":52,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-5","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","謝衣鳯","邱志偉","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鄭正鈐","陳超明","黃國昌","賴瑞隆","呂玉玲","張嘉郡","蔡易餘","徐富癸","劉建國","林楚茵"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-20"],"gazette_id":"1148601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家發展委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148601_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}