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主席謝謝 麻煩請署長加署長委員好來 署長好署長 今天感謝召委這邊排這相關的一個專題報告"},{"start":15.612,"end":37.218,"text":"本期也想了解我開宗明義自始至終我們都很支持基層的公務同仁因為基層的警察同仁非常辛苦尤其是現在不管是詐騙不管是任何的這一些大小事都要我們第一線的員警來做處理非常辛苦不容易但該討論的事項還是要討論我先請教一下刑法135條指的是什麼"},{"start":38.447,"end":47.517,"text":"134 應該那個善貨 善貨罪 就是善貨人家犯罪 應該確定善貨罪嗎 是嗎 是妨礙公務吧136條 善貨他人犯罪 好 136條勒"},{"start":57.437,"end":68.982,"text":"你也不清楚嘛 署長在第一時間面臨到即便是你學有專精 即便是那麼了解 刑法136條也不清楚是聚眾啊 聚眾三人以上 妨礙公務啊138條咧 140條 141條 署長都不清楚那署長為什麼會請教這個問題 不用現在再看了啦來啦 為什麼會請教這個問題"},{"start":84.773,"end":102.489,"text":"看到一名員警在高雄的時候因為總統車隊經過員警過來對單一男子喔他是單一個人喔我們看到畫面單一個人嘛員警過來講說執勤公務啊按照法條刑法135條138條140條141條妨礙社會秩序執勤特種勤務你拍特勤就是違法請教我以哪一條法例"},{"start":112.076,"end":117.419,"text":"現在不是說我頒法條出來喔念的00中總138139140好像這樣就很專業因為連署長剛剛被問到的時候也都不清楚這些法條內容到底是什麼那這個員警這樣子有沒有爭議應該是沒有爭議啦沒有爭議你現在這樣子啦你連署長都不清楚那個法條內容然後你跟我講說沒有爭議那你覺得說符合嗎來"},{"start":142.281,"end":156.369,"text":"總統的或副總統維安是依照特勤中心特勤這個條例總統有特殊的規格維安我不反對因為國安規格就是國安規格那是有特勤條例 特勤條例裡面會去公告特勤條例的第12條是對於公告的這些相關可能造成維安的狀況會去做一些盤查的一些相關的勤務行為沒有問題盤查的相關的特別但我先請教啊"},{"start":170.676,"end":189.512,"text":"遠景到恐嚇一般的老百姓不能恐嚇沒有恐嚇老百姓他拿出這些條例有哪一條是符合第一您剛也不清楚說這條例內容一時間你被問到也不清楚即便是我們警政署長被問到也不清楚我應該是要跟他講說這第幾條是什麼樣的一個罪名有沒有符合聚眾三人136條聚眾三人對不對那看到只有一個人"},{"start":197.83,"end":213.804,"text":"然後他搬出136條聚眾三人什麼意思那我想跟委員報告如果員警有這些使用這些錯誤的作用我們會去做一個再教育現在署長改口說員警使用錯誤的條例因為那個盤炒我現在講的是盤炒的這個作為啦138條是什麼你不知道嗎138條是毀損公務員的文書"},{"start":224.383,"end":251.891,"text":"是公務員如果說有任何文書你去把他毀損139 140條是什麼是侮辱公務員141條是什麼是執勤的時候侮辱公務員那這一個民眾他拿手機出來拍維安車隊你可以用其他的條文如果說符合我現在講的是說國家有國家的法令總統有國安的高規格的維安我不反對"},{"start":252.811,"end":280.271,"text":"但是你如果拿錯誤的法條故意要來恐嚇民眾我沒有辦法接受啊員警如果執行了這些的這個相關的疏失我們會再去做教育那這個是適用特警條例的規範來做盤查特警條例有告訴員警說你可以拿不對法條只要唸出來唸出來就算對沒有講那個特別法條就是依照特警條例來做一個盤查署長署長我們現在人武分局改口啊"},{"start":281.131,"end":301.456,"text":"說這是善意提醒啊為什麼要改口這個我想就是說你署長又講的那麼義正嚴實說這是違安那現在又說改口誰說的算遠景的這個部分他個人的一個相關的工作上的這一些這個這個這個這個疏失或者是這一些不是不對的我們會去做教育"},{"start":305.217,"end":320.062,"text":"那這個以這個案來講這是依照特權條例的規範來做一個盤查特權條例第12條那本來特權條例第二就是有規範的這個路段跟路口對於這個造成總統違安的各種狀況那總統的違安一定要達到萬全啊"},{"start":322.801,"end":348.341,"text":"可能就是他在那邊做什麼動作你沒有去瞭解你沒有辦法自圓其說啦我只講兩點啦第一總統有違安高規格本席不反對任何人都有機會當總統當了總統就中華民國的代表就應該有違安高規格但是絕對不是無限上綱更不是一個員警可以拿錯誤的法條來去恐嚇人民第一他明明執勤的時候就使用錯誤法條"},{"start":349.102,"end":369.37,"text":"第二 如果說你剛講你用錯誤法條然後你要援警再教育的話那要一體試用啊 要講清楚啊 不能一人涉事啊不能一人涉事啊 半藍不半綠是過去大家看到覺得最荒謬的事情不要讓民眾覺得現在是台灣是法治的社會警察的 警察國家"},{"start":370.838,"end":397.311,"text":"絕對不會署長一定是依法啦錯誤的法條不要濫用你剛已經講了人五分局也改口了我想這件事情影片我不知道你有沒有看過有看過有看過那你就更你就更清楚明白本席的強調的重點不是拿法條出來背幾條就可以恐嚇人民的連署長被問到的時候都不知道那法條內容的時候我不知道一般的民眾怎麼樣能夠"},{"start":400.525,"end":402.876,"text":"幸福警察的執勤謝謝我們感謝侯孟愷委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":619,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（10時23分）主席，謝謝，麻煩請署長。"],["主席：請署長。"],["張署長榮興：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：署長好。署長，今天感謝召委排了這個專題報告，本席也想了解一些事情，我開宗明義講，自始至終，我們都很支持基層的公務同仁，因為基層的警察同仁非常辛苦。"],["張署長榮興：謝謝委員。"],["洪委員孟楷：尤其現在不管是詐騙、不管是任何的大小事都要由第一線的員警來做處理，真的是非常辛苦，不容易啦！但是該討論的事項還是要討論。我先請教一下，刑法第一百三十五條規定的是什麼？"],["張署長榮興：第一百三十五條是煽惑罪，就是煽惑人家犯罪。"],["洪委員孟楷：你確不確定？"],["張署長榮興：應該確定。"],["洪委員孟楷：是煽惑罪嗎？是嗎？是妨礙公務吧！"],["張署長榮興：是煽惑他人犯罪。"],["洪委員孟楷：第一百三十六條呢？"],["張署長榮興：這可能要看一下。"],["洪委員孟楷：你也不清楚嘛！署長在被問到的第一時間，即便你學有專精，即便是那麼了解，對刑法第一百三十六條也不清楚，這是聚眾三人以上妨礙公務。第一百三十八條呢？"],["張署長榮興：委員，這個可能要再看一下……"],["洪委員孟楷：第一百四十條呢？第一百四十一條呢？署長都不清楚。署長，我為什麼會請教這個問題？現在不用再看了！來，我為什麼會請教這個問題？因為我有看到影片，在高雄有一名員警在總統車隊經過的時候跟一位自己一個人的男子講，當時正在執勤公務，按照刑法第一百三十五條、第一百三十六條、第一百三十八條、第一百四十條、第一百四十一條，他妨礙社會秩序，因為在執行特種勤務，你拍特勤就是違法。署長，請教這樣是違反哪一條法令？"],["張署長榮興：我跟委員報告，現在……"],["洪委員孟楷：現在不是說搬法條出來，唸出林林總總的條文，包括第一百三十八條、第一百三十九條、第一百四十條，好像這樣就很專業，連署長在剛剛被問到的時候也都不清楚這些法條的內容到底是什麼，這個員警這樣執勤有沒有爭議？"],["張署長榮興：委員，我跟你報告一下，應該是沒有爭議……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有爭議？"],["張署長榮興：現在是這樣子……"],["洪委員孟楷：連署長自己都不清楚那些法條的內容，然後你跟我講沒有爭議，那你覺得說符合嗎？"],["張署長榮興：委員，是不是可以讓我報告一下？"],["洪委員孟楷：來！"],["張署長榮興：總統或副總統的維安是依照特勤條例由特勤中心……"],["洪委員孟楷：我不反對總統有特殊規格的維安，因為國安規格就是國安規格，但是我現在要請教的是……"],["張署長榮興：那是有特勤條例，在特勤條例裡面會去公告，特勤條例的第十二條是對於公告的這些可能造成維安的相關狀況會去做一些盤查的勤務作為。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，沒有問題，是特別的相關盤查。但是我現在要請教，員警恐嚇一般的老百姓……"],["張署長榮興：不能恐嚇，沒有恐嚇老百姓。"],["洪委員孟楷：他拿出這些條文，有哪一條是符合的？第一，您剛剛也不清楚這些條文的內容，你在被問到的第一時間也不清楚嘛！即便是我們警政署長被問到也不清楚。"],["張署長榮興：委員，應該是要跟他講第幾條是什麼樣的罪名。"],["洪委員孟楷：第二，要看有沒有符合第一百三十六條的「聚集三人」，對不對？我們看到只有一個人，然後他搬出規定「聚集三人」的第一百三十六條，這是什麼意思？"],["張署長榮興：我想跟委員報告，如果員警有這些使用錯誤的狀況，我們會去做再教育。"],["洪委員孟楷：現在署長改口說員警使用錯誤的條文……"],["張署長榮興：沒有，我現在講的是盤查的作為。"],["洪委員孟楷：來，第一百三十八條是規定什麼？你不知道嘛！第一百三十八條是毀損公務員的文書，就是公務員如果有任何文書，你去加以毀損。第一百三十九條、第一百四十條是規定什麼？是污辱公務員。第一百四十一條是規定什麼？是在公務員執勤的時候污辱公務員。那這個民眾拿手機出來拍維安車隊，如果說符合，你可以用其他的條文，我現在要講的是國家有國家的法令，總統有高規格的維安，我不反對，但是你如果拿一些錯誤的法條故意要來恐嚇民眾，我沒有辦法接受啊！"],["張署長榮興：員警如果在執勤的時候有這些相關的疏失，我們會再去做教育。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以有疏失？"],["張署長榮興：這是適用特勤條例的規範來做盤查。"],["洪委員孟楷：特勤條例有跟員警說你可以拿不對的法條，只要唸出來就算對？"],["張署長榮興：沒有、沒有，不能講說要用不同的法條，沒有講那個特別法，就是依照特勤條例來做一個盤查。"],["洪委員孟楷：來，署長，現在仁武分局改口說這是善意提醒，為什麼要改口？"],["張署長榮興：我想就是說……"],["洪委員孟楷：署長都講得那麼義正辭嚴，你說這是維安，現在他們又改口，那是誰說的算？"],["張署長榮興：關於員警的這個部分，是他個人在工作上的疏失或者是有不對的時候，我們會去做教育。以這個案子來講，這個是依照特勤條例的規範來做一個盤查，就是特勤條例第十二條，本來特勤條例就是有規範的這個路段跟路口，對於造成總統維安的各種狀況，總統的維安一定是要達到萬全，可能就是他在那邊做什麼動作，你沒有去了解……"],["洪委員孟楷：好，署長，召委已經站起來了，你沒有辦法自圓其說，我只講兩點：第一，總統有維安的高規格，本席不反對，任何人都有機會當總統，當了總統，就是中華民國的代表，就應該有高規格的維安，但是絕對不是無限上綱，更不是一個員警可以拿錯誤的法條去恐嚇人民。第一，他明明在執勤的時候就使用錯誤的法條；第二，如果像你剛剛講的，員警用錯誤的法條，然後你要對員警再教育的話，那要一體適用、要講清楚，不能因人設事啊！"],["張署長榮興：委員，我們一定一體適用。"],["洪委員孟楷：不能因人設事啊！看到辦藍不辦綠是過去大家覺得最荒謬的事情，不要讓民眾覺得現在臺灣是警察國家。"],["張署長榮興：絕對不會，一定是依法啦！"],["洪委員孟楷：署長，錯誤的法條不要濫用，你剛剛已經講了，仁武分局也改口了，關於這件事情，我不知道你有沒有看過影片。"],["張署長榮興：有看過，電視上有播。"],["洪委員孟楷：你有看過，你就更清楚明白本席要強調的重點，不是拿法條出來背幾條就可以恐嚇人民，連署長被問到的時候都不知道法條內容，我不知道一般民眾怎麼樣能夠信服警察的執勤，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員的質詢。","請吳宗憲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":168,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-6","speakers":["王美惠","黃捷","牛煦庭","張智倫","許宇甄","張宏陸","麥玉珍","李柏毅","黃建賓","黃國昌","洪孟楷","吳宗憲","徐欣瑩","王鴻薇","徐富癸","丁學忠","高金素梅","蘇巧慧","吳琪銘","林楚茵"],"page_start":123,"meetingDate":["2025-10-20"],"gazette_id":"1148501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部、警政署署長、國家安全局、法務部針對「當前全國治安狀況與如何強化總統、副總\n統、中央政府機關首長及特定人士安全警衛作業，避免境外勢力或協力者影響國家安全」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148501_00005"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}