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最少7年如果按計劃的話我們計劃是5年那當然是看到現在各項的情況我們來根據實際的狀況"},{"start":186.853,"end":191.475,"text":"在安全跟符合我們的需求的計畫現在你不要變成一個現在什麼都沒有整合系統就是沒辦法整合我們很擔心給你這麼多錢700億加起來才500億會不會變成爛尾劍"},{"start":204.901,"end":221.613,"text":"那根據海軍的說明那是一些這個額外的因素發生之後我們也做了調整那他們也做了整合實際上這個相關的困難都在排除中這個也很在也也很在這個繼續的推動這個進展應該是可以不會造成這個所謂您所謂的這種 不會"},{"start":224.155,"end":227.316,"text":"我們很擔心這個因為你現在三階段第一階段輻射是不是輻航輻航都沒有完成還要潛水的潛航還深水的潛航第一階段都沒有了安全的原則下這個要一步一步達成我們的供性能所以說當然是做詳細的測試都在繼續在進行中我請教另外一個問題大家很關心的"},{"start":250.265,"end":264.234,"text":"就是我們現在交了像美國買武器交了錢還沒有到的外面外面是說大概200億美金這個數字到底有沒有錯好 那我就想省紀部特別針對F16特別預算F16特別預算是2500億左右喔"},{"start":269.677,"end":290.324,"text":"這個他講的在這審計部講的114年6月匯出去47.2億美金佔了總金額59億美金的六成我們我們已經付了六成結果第一架原來說112年要出廠delay到今年的"},{"start":291.124,"end":305.12,"text":"Q1現在還在美國根本都沒有交貨那現在美國說115年的Q3開始交115年的Q4完成交貨你會這麼樂觀看嗎這部分我請空軍參謀長做講解空軍參謀長來"},{"start":309.94,"end":325.659,"text":"委員好 我是工進消防長跟委員報告這個交貨的部分我們付款的部分在112年以前因為都還沒有交機所以我們是按他的發價書來付款113年以後因為他的交機delay所以說我們並沒有實際的付款給他"},{"start":326.44,"end":351.546,"text":"那在 這個省經部的報告省經部的報告是75我們已經付了75但是事實上 75%我們到今年底我們只付了61那沒有交機的部分我們都按照跟美方的這個討論之後好 現在我就問一個很重要的問題啦因為這個特別預算是115年底就明年底要執行完畢如果那時候都還沒有交完貨怎麼辦 你告訴我怎麼辦"},{"start":353.966,"end":365.213,"text":"我們會按程序做預算的保留因為現在看起來是風險是非常的高所以就是你講說明年底交不了60價就對了啦我們評估風險很高就交不了啦簡單來講就是交不了這樣就對了那這個東西你保留預算我覺得另外有個方式嘛"},{"start":377,"end":389.574,"text":"你這個可以特別預算來修改一下不就好了把那個後面時間往後延一下不就好了這個我們會按程序來走程序你是說保留還是保留保留很久預算保留跟執行年度我們都會一併檢討"},{"start":390.919,"end":409.962,"text":"好另外一個另外一個最後一個問題我要講一下現在你們正在發展一個東西叫做軍民兩用無人機就是無人機平時轉轉平站的轉換就平時轉為暫時所以就是軍商用的"},{"start":411.341,"end":425.737,"text":"軍商規 共用軍商共用的規格第一個小問題來問一下那個副總長你知道現在的操控手或者是空軍司令的那個參謀長那個我說要訓練一千個人結果只訓練三百個人"},{"start":428.174,"end":444.026,"text":"然後現在規定 按照我們國防部的規定針對於大陸港澳產品是不可以用大陸產品那你現在軍跟商用的無人機是共用那商的部分很多是大陸的晶片"},{"start":445.348,"end":463.945,"text":"這一來的話這裡面風險其實蠻高的按照你們的規定來講這個如何的避免這個事情你們正在發生這個喔比如說這個有叫軍民共規策略軍民通用無人機能量籌建這兩個大計畫都在做這個事情來 長官要不要回答一下"},{"start":465.12,"end":484.235,"text":"哪一位長官可以回答我請採購室主任跟您做個詳細回答簡單來講就是居民方面裡面無論幾很多是大陸的晶片結果你現在要轉換為暫時那都是有 因為就有這個大家所擔心的治安的問題"},{"start":485.447,"end":506.979,"text":"委員好 國防財務室主任跟您報告不管是軍用還是商用我們對於這個廠商的要求我們規定是不能夠有錄製品也就是說像無人機它是屬於軍用商用很多錄製品的 怎麼沒有呢商用也是我們包含買商用的無人機或軍用無人機一律是禁止這個錄製品我們都有這個履約 履約督導還有這個驗收的這個規定這個不是我講的喔 是審計部講的喔"},{"start":515.163,"end":543.363,"text":"你們的國防部的採購契約買無人機方面沒有與國防部的這個履約驗收作業指導的相關規定審計部 這個話審計部講不是我講的啊審計部講的啊審計資料我們辦的 我們訂的這個作業指導是在去年8月30號訂的也就是這個指導之後我們是確實落實按照這個作業指導來執行這個履約督導和驗收"},{"start":544.076,"end":550.791,"text":"我不知道你怎麼去管到民間的民間買無人機你怎麼去管得到民間買的商用的"},{"start":551.618,"end":565.804,"text":"民間買對啊 軍民兩用啊 軍民兩用啊你沒有聽懂我意思我們有軍用商規的五輪機我們也會去買商規的 商用的五輪機可是就在這個採購的規定裡頭有這個非常明確的綠定它不可以裡頭有這個大陸的你沒聽懂我意思我現在講是你們在發展一個叫軍民"},{"start":575.308,"end":598.818,"text":"居民共規策略就是軍用的無人機跟民間用的無人機民間用的無人機你沒辦法阻止他他的無人機裡面有大陸的晶片可是我們在採購的時候我們就會檢查他如果我們要買的是軍用商規的無人機也就是這種這個一般外面商業生產的這個無人機的時候他裡頭必須"},{"start":600.859,"end":607.881,"text":"不能有大陸的所以等於說民間你們現在有兩個計畫一個是你們 一個是經濟部經濟部是軍民通用無人機能量籌建有兩個 都是說我這個按照好好的方法想就是擴大我們無人機的規模啦size啦這不是壞事但是就是在民間他會用到的無人機裡面的晶片是大陸做的晶片"},{"start":628.607,"end":636.588,"text":"可是他只要進入軍方的採購我們就會限制他不得使用大陸方面的零件我講一句話就結束了審計部打你們的臉說你們的採購契約無人機的採購契約沒有與國防部的相關的作為指導你回去檢討好不好審計部給你們的一個糾正這是糾正喔他裡面有讀了一下糾正你們就是代表你剛剛講的話你沒有落實"},{"start":656.912,"end":660.93,"text":"我們現在的確已經在開始落實這個相關的概念現在在開始落實是謝謝好 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":483,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（11時1分）謝謝主席以及各位先進。有請副參謀總長、楊常務次長，還有陸軍司令部陳參謀長。"],["主席：請副參謀總長、楊常務次長、陸軍陳參謀長。"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：幾位長官好。首先，請教陸軍參謀長，有人提到今天302砲營的軍官在砲測中心跳樓，已經走了，有沒有這回事？"],["陳參謀長建義：報告委員，是的。有這件遺憾的事情。"],["賴委員士葆：這軍官到底是為什麼跳樓？有沒有去了解？"],["陳參謀長建義：一早我們循著戰情系統就直接掌握……"],["賴委員士葆：時間是什麼時候？"],["陳參謀長建義：在凌晨5時50分的時候。"],["賴委員士葆：跳下來？"],["陳參謀長建義：是，墜樓。"],["賴委員士葆：他的軍階是怎麼樣？"],["陳參謀長建義：中尉副連長。"],["賴委員士葆：中尉副連長。有沒有去了解什麼原因？"],["陳參謀長建義：他目前是在302旅，但是是在砲測中心接受基地訓練。"],["賴委員士葆：是壓力太大，還是怎麼樣？還是不知道？"],["陳參謀長建義：細節……我們已經在第一時間封鎖了現場，也通知了雲林憲兵隊，因為是營區內的重大傷損案件，目前是由檢調介入調查和釐清。"],["賴委員士葆：確定是自殺？"],["陳參謀長建義：這我不能……因為……報告委員，我剛才已經報告這案件是由檢調介入調查和釐清。"],["賴委員士葆：你們大概什麼時候會對外說明？"],["陳參謀長建義：還是我剛才說的，檢調已經介入處理了。"],["賴委員士葆：好，你請回。這是很遺憾的，到底是怎麼樣，是不是訓練壓力太大？副參謀總長，我先請問你，部長今天早上講，建造一般潛艦都要7年以上，我們現在五年多，言下之意就是你們的進度delay是理所當然的，會是這樣嗎？我們第一艘的潛艦到底什麼時候可以出來？"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：報告委員，實際上，我們國家是第一次自力建造潛艦，當然會面對非常多的挑戰，我們當然是希望做最詳盡的計畫，能夠在我們希望的時間之內獲得。各單位都非常的努力，我們也有很多地方也獲得了突破，但是我相信也可以理解，在這個過程中一定會遭到非常多的困難跟挑戰……"],["賴委員士葆：部長這樣講，我就請教，因為我時間有限，是不是最少要七年，現在五年多，我們要再等一年多才可能看到，是不是？"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：那倒不一定。"],["賴委員士葆：最順利最少七年？"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：如果按計畫的話，我們五年就可以……"],["賴委員士葆：五年已經到了！"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：那當然是看現在各項的情況，我們根據實際的狀況，在安全跟符合我們的需求……"],["賴委員士葆：現在什麼都沒有，整合系統就是沒辦法整合，事實上我們很擔心給你這麼多錢，加起來差不多500億，對不對？"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：事實上，根據……"],["賴委員士葆：會不會變成爛尾艦？"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：不會，根據海軍的說明，在一些額外的因素發生之後，我們也做了調整，他們也做了整合，實際上相關的困難都在排除中，也在繼續的推動、進展，應該不會造成您所謂的這種做不下……"],["賴委員士葆：爛尾艦。"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：不會。"],["賴委員士葆：我們很擔心這個，因為三階段中第一階段的浮航都沒有完成，還有淺水潛航、深水潛航。"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：當然我們要在安全的原則下一步一步達成我們的功性能，所以當然是做詳盡的測試，都在繼續進行中。"],["賴委員士葆：我請教另外一個問題，大家很關心的，就是我們向美國買武器，交了錢還沒有到貨的，外面是說大概200億美金，這個數字到底有沒有錯？審計部特別針對F-16特別預算2,500億左右，這是審計部講的，114年6月匯出去47.2億美金，占總金額59億美金的六成，我們已經付了六成，結果第一架原來說112年要出廠，delay到今年的Q1，現在還在美國，根本都沒有交貨，現在美國說115年的Q3開始交，115年的Q4完成交貨，你會這麼樂觀看待嗎？"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：這部分我請空軍參謀長做詳細的答復。"],["賴委員士葆：請空軍參謀長。"],["李參謀長慶然：委員好。我是空軍參謀長，跟委員報告，我們付款的部分，因為在112年以前都還沒有交機，所以我們是按它的發價書來付款，113年以後，因為交機delay，所以我們並沒有實際的付款給他，那在……"],["賴委員士葆：這是審計部的報告。"],["李參謀長慶然：審計部的報告是我們已經付了75%，但事實上我們到今年底只付了61%，那沒有交機的部分，我們跟美方討論之後……"],["賴委員士葆：現在我就問一個很重要的問題，因為這個特別預算是115年底就明年底要執行完畢，如果那時候都還沒有交完貨怎麼辦？你告訴我怎麼辦。"],["李參謀長慶然：我們會按程序……"],["賴委員士葆：程序是什麼？"],["李參謀長慶然：做預算的保留，因為現在看起來風險非常的高，因為在……"],["賴委員士葆：所以，就是說明年底交不了60架就對了。"],["李參謀長慶然：我們評估風險很高，是。"],["賴委員士葆：就交不了啦，簡單來講就是交不了，這樣就對了。那這部分你說要保留預算，我覺得另外有個方式，可以特別預算來修改一下不就好了？把後面的時間往後延一下不就好了？"],["李參謀長慶然：這個我們會按程序來走。"],["賴委員士葆：程序你是說保留，可是保留會很久。"],["李參謀長慶然：預算保留跟執行年度我們都會一併檢討。"],["賴委員士葆：好，最後一個問題，我要講一下，現在你們正在發展一個東西，叫做軍民兩用無人機，就是無人機平戰的轉換，就平時轉為戰時，就是軍商共用的規格，第一個小問題問一下副總長或者空軍司令部的參謀長，你知道現在的操控手，我說訓練1,000個人，結果只訓練300個人，然後現在按照我們國防部的規定，不可以用大陸產品，但現在軍跟商用的無人機是共用，那商的部分很多是大陸的晶片，這一來的話，這裡面風險其實蠻高的，按照你們的規定來講，應該如何避免這個事情？你們正在發展這個，比如有叫軍民共規策略、軍民通用無人機能量籌建，這兩個大計畫都在做這個事情。哪一位長官可以回答一下？"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：委員，我請採購室主任跟你做個詳細回答。"],["賴委員士葆：簡單來講就是民方面的無人機很多是大陸的晶片，結果你現在要轉換為戰時，那這裡面就有大家所擔心的資安問題。"],["趙主任亞平：委員好。國防採購室主任跟您報告，不管是軍用還是商用，我們對於廠商的要求，規定是不能夠有陸製品，像無人機是屬於軍用……"],["賴委員士葆：商用很多陸製品的，怎麼沒有？"],["趙主任亞平：商用也是，包含買商用的無人機或軍用無人機，一律是禁止陸製品，我們都有履約督導還有驗收的規定。"],["賴委員士葆：這個不是我講的，是審計部講的，你們的國防部採購契約買無人機，沒有依國防部的履約驗收作業指導的相關規定辦理。這個話是審計部講的，不是我講的，審計資料啊！"],["趙主任亞平：跟委員報告，我們的作業指導是在去年8月30號訂的，也就是有這個指導之後，我們是確實落實按照這個作業指導來執行履約督導和驗收。"],["賴委員士葆：我不知道你怎麼去管到民間買無人機，你怎麼管得到民間買的商用的？"],["趙主任亞平：民間買的？"],["賴委員士葆：對啊，軍民兩用啊！你沒有聽懂我的意思。"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：報告委員，我們有軍用商規的無人機，我們也會去買商規的、商用的無人機，可是就在這個採購規定裡有非常明確的律定，裡頭不可以有大陸的……"],["賴委員士葆：你沒聽懂我的意思，我現在講的是你們在發展一個叫軍民共規策略，就是軍用的無人機跟民間用的無人機，民間用的無人機你沒辦法阻止它用大陸的晶片，這個你們阻止不了。"],["趙主任亞平：可是我們在採購的時候，我們就會檢查，如果我們要買的是軍用商規的無人機，也就是這種一般外面商業生產的無人機，其中必須不能有大陸的零件，我們才會購買。"],["賴委員士葆：你們現在有兩個計畫，一個是你們的、一個是經濟部的，經濟部的是軍民通用無人機能量籌建，往好的方面想就是擴大我們無人機的規模啦，這不是壞事，但是就是民間的無人機會用到大陸做的晶片。"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：可是它只要進入軍方的採購，我們就會限制它不得使用大陸方面的零件。"],["賴委員士葆：我講一句話結束了，審計部打你們的臉，說你們的無人機採購契約，沒有依國防部的相關作業指導，你回去檢討，好不好？"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：對，我們立即檢討。"],["賴委員士葆：審計部給你們一個糾正，這是糾正喔，我讀了一下，糾正你們就是代表你剛剛講的話沒有落實。"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：我們現在的確已經開始在落實這個相關規定。"],["賴委員士葆：現在才開始落實，謝謝。"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在。","請楊瓊瓔委員，楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","請徐欣瑩委員，徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩委員不在。","請傅崐萁委員，傅崐萁、傅崐萁委員不在。","請王鴻薇委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":208,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-6","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","陳永康","黃仁","徐巧芯","陳俊宇","林楚茵","陳冠廷","賴士葆","王鴻薇","林憶君","王定宇","沈伯洋","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":169,"meetingDate":["2025-10-20"],"gazette_id":"1148501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148501_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「潛艦國造原型艦海測執行現況及因應作為」，併請台灣國際造船股\n份有限公司董事長列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148501_00006"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}