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首先有請我們國防會業主委好 我們再請國防會業主委"},{"start":19.585,"end":38.738,"text":"議員好 葉哲瑋你這份報告寫得很好非常清晰而且非常明瞭但是這裡面你提到你的施大施重的目標創新經濟 均衡台灣 精進治理及投資人才"},{"start":40.338,"end":57.345,"text":"剛剛我看到政權委員的執行關於桃子苗大矽谷計畫我們為了這個大矽谷計畫也聯合了桃園市新直縣新直市苗栗縣整個再綜合的檢討"},{"start":58.666,"end":86.09,"text":"那大家都感覺好像國會也不怎麼重視經濟部也不怎麼重視行政院現在越來越大牌已經反映了幾十次我們說裡面有很多問題要來解決了譬如在苗栗有一個投資的科學研區有一個職能科學研區第二期有一個產業科技研區那經濟部我們大概都已經協調完成了"},{"start":86.75,"end":107.711,"text":"那主覽的科學運氣第二期是包括第一期裡面的一個延伸我一直拜託你們做協調 您好像沒搖沒緊口號喊得那麼大 這是未來曹植苗的一個希望跟未來但是我們對這個問題跟你請教 你們都躲在後面好像沒有人敢去承擔 敢去擔當一樣"},{"start":111.014,"end":131.434,"text":"職亂科學運區第二期的時候我們要請國科會來擔任目的事業的主管機關到現在都沒有一點進展尤其是你們劉指揮在謝震的那天晚上發一個給我他說做下來以後沒有把我這個幫完成那葉指揮要不要替我們幫忙"},{"start":133.536,"end":154.762,"text":"在那個合法合法 你問問黃次長很優秀他了解這個狀況我看你有拍到嗎沒有拍到剛剛看你在問答的話18天好像還不好意思不好意思不會啦當那個行政院的小內閣是非常大你是行政院的小內閣非常大要發揮你的power好不好"},{"start":156.766,"end":180.225,"text":"我會 我會盡量來協調好不好 多久一直在等待我回到地方都被人家是不是要取消了中央不支持中央只支持南部不支持北部不支持苗栗縣好不好 我希望這一點既然計畫你們已經合訂了出來了全力的推動好不好好 這第一點第二點"},{"start":181.246,"end":183.934,"text":"你所有的工作內容裡面協調推動AI"},{"start":186.9,"end":210.361,"text":"新十大建設這裡面分得看起來很好但是我有一點AI軟體的產業跟東方你們畫在世衛部這個一定要跟經濟部的結合因為這裡面有很多軟體要實際在運作實際跟工廠在討論你才有辦法我只要說你AI十大建設好像是在那個"},{"start":213.356,"end":241.807,"text":"分餐一樣 這個部位多少錢這個都要跨部位合作不說它簡單一行就行再來裡面我有意見的時候就是全球AI機器人供應鏈的私流你們排在國科會我就有時候覺得很懷疑是要給大學的還是怎麼來做這個跟產業鏈有關係啊跟哪一家工廠特稅有關係啊跟哪一種運行有關係啊"},{"start":243.753,"end":257.346,"text":"這邊都沒有只有高科會分給大學大學去研究他要對產業很了解才可以不是憑光想像的我希望你們能務實這一點的時候真的有幾個地方要討論一下"},{"start":259.657,"end":286.215,"text":"你點頭是怎樣 可以不可以你可以回答我知道那個委員的關心我也認同就是說其實產業的發展不光是在學校而且要產業之間要互相的配合所以我們其實也有某一些計畫其實是在鼓勵大學要有一個育成的東西這個是關鍵的時候現在邊學習不是在台灣管理很厚的很內行的世界十個都在那邊這個競爭已經非常激烈了"},{"start":290.077,"end":310.666,"text":"再來啊 你重大的公共建設完全又有談有很多預算都過了 你們還丟在那邊好像都不敢動 每次用財政措施法 文法還沒有確定怎麼樣那是今年的預算耶 已經拼在裡面了 也不核定啊這個政府也跟他拼了"},{"start":312.386,"end":331.049,"text":"那個顏色不要那麼重你會不會顏色很重我希望你不會但是每一個人都是講不會都是講為國家來做服務的但是做事情不要這樣我們已經明顯的看出來要把你調查太多了不送媒體我們背在心裡"},{"start":333.355,"end":360.414,"text":"我從現在大罷免完了就要真的做事情還有原來國外的人才這裡面很重要但是你要記得我們薪資的競爭都比我們鄰近日本、韓國還要低不是只有水利化提高薪資啦不然你覺得我們台灣我一直在強調台灣會變成AI的訓練所尤其這個執政黨到日本到美國到歐洲"},{"start":361.411,"end":366.716,"text":"我給你一個消息日本要引進印度5萬個AI的人才"},{"start":368.547,"end":391.706,"text":"那AI人才現在把它發掘應用印度台當CEO的話這個公司都會倒你不要看這個資料它會結幫結派所以你這一方面台灣的人才訓練自己水往地去流 人往高去爬大家都到薪資高的地方又有利卡台灣又在地緣政治裡面戰爭邊緣"},{"start":393.447,"end":415.123,"text":"大家想嘛,我們去做人的腦袋我們不要指財禁用我們自己選的人才把他留在台灣這個真的未來會發生一個非常嚴重的問題啊你每次都說得很好聽我要如何,我要如何實在我很擔心啊真的,你多看那一些日本要用"},{"start":416.53,"end":441.344,"text":"引進AI人才要從印度引進五萬人你看這世界是怎麼在變不是我們口講的那些真的我們要面臨很多問題那我們現在都自我陶醉我們很強我們不怕人家的競爭好 再來今天很多人在問我有一點很遺憾你國會會的職位不曉得我們校務總統"},{"start":443.517,"end":468.123,"text":"說要除了台積電要把ICT的生態產業鏈要外移到美國我們要到美國開RAID科學運氣的方式你想ICT是什麼自動性產品不是除了經營ICT就是封裝測試高階的封裝測試那我再跟"},{"start":470.011,"end":499.614,"text":"主委討論一下 高階的封裝車是你曉得嗎 用人是最多的地方啊啊什麼美國生產一半 台灣生產一半我們的根被割掉 我們都不曉得啊我請教你 你相信美國嗎他是好人嗎他真的照顧台灣嗎你要看起來 他要了什麼 你就乖乖給他你以為那些參議員來這邊訪問的都做什麼都是叫我買武器"},{"start":501.004,"end":521.525,"text":"我們台灣政府 我也不曉得為什麼那麼相信他我們坑都被挖光了 你們都沒有反應說這個叫做擴展實力 我跟你說有時候講起來看起來很有道理 就叫做出賣台灣坑每一個在競爭 我錢多我去找"},{"start":522.677,"end":539.15,"text":"我們台灣不一定會比人家贏世界的人才很多這第一點跟委員報告那個五十五十我們是不會接你做國務法會主委連政府都不跟你同情楊瓊園委員很有人心叫你三個月的報告照這樣的話"},{"start":540.811,"end":558.87,"text":"不然我們立委怎麼曉得兩天前的新聞出來我馬上要問對臺灣的影響要了多少所以表示這個政府裡面的反應很慢這是大家關心的問題啊切切實實會怎麼樣你們也不講明白說好啦臺灣沒有關係臺灣的實力很強啊臺積電很強"},{"start":563.834,"end":593.346,"text":"台積電你們就報告說我們只營5年到10年我們還要這樣自我逃稅人才外流什麼機器都外流到國外大家都拚自己的管你台灣是誰我不知道你們做生意在競爭的世界是這樣在拚還有一點我從來要談台積電的二耐敏機器已經外流到日本的TL他們也在試製的二耐敏"},{"start":594.281,"end":612.972,"text":"我們政府輕描淡寫 這不是偷情這個是轉移 非常的奇怪二難民的機制等於國安的機制我們這都不發生還是說臺灣有事 日本就有事作為調案的條件"},{"start":614.453,"end":633.999,"text":"所以台積電2奈米那個時候台灣被拖起了 日本沒有事情我覺得這個政府委員怪到底是為誰服務的主委 人生一直想要好好跟你討論沒有 因為剛剛我因為我覺得這個問題你這個很重要的未來規劃台灣的願景啊你們都覺得沒有關係 這樣有過"},{"start":643.836,"end":666.618,"text":"臺灣啊 會那個什麼 青蛙指紋 水會變臨這些官員啊從來沒有警惕的意思好像臺灣世界無敵 要把你餓很快啦我跟你講 你看連日本都不能當間諜來這邊偷我們2奈米的美國沒有間諜嘛 不要想得太天真了啦 謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":471,"blocks":[["陳委員超明：（11時7分）主席好。首先請國發會葉主委。"],["主席：請國發會葉主委。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：委員好。"],["陳委員超明：葉主委好。主委，你這份報告寫得很好，非常清晰，也非常明瞭，在這裡面你提到國發會的四大施政目標：創新經濟、均衡臺灣、精進治理及投資人才。剛剛我看到鄭正鈐委員質詢關於桃竹苗大矽谷計畫的問題，為了這個大矽谷計畫，聯合了桃園市、新竹縣、新竹市、苗栗縣綜合檢討，但感覺上好像國發會不怎麼重視，經濟部也不怎麼重視，行政院現在越來越大牌，已經反映了幾十次，我們說裡面有很多問題要解決，譬如苗栗有一個頭份科學園區、一個竹南科學園區第二期，還有一個產業科技園區，我們大概都已經和經濟部協調完成了，竹南科學園區第二期是第一期的延伸，我一直拜託你們要協調，但你們好像都無關緊要，口號喊得那麼大，說這是桃竹苗的一個希望跟未來，但是遇到問題去請教你們，你們都躲在後面，好像沒有人敢去承擔、擔當。有關竹南科學園區第二期，我們請國科會擔任目的事業主管機關，但到現在沒有一點進展，尤其你們劉主委在卸任的那一天晚上發了一個訊息給我，說沒能幫我把這個完成，那葉主委要不要幫忙我們？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：在合法的……"],["陳委員超明：你問我們黃次長，他很優秀，了解整個狀況，就看你有沒有魄力啦！剛剛看你答詢，因為剛上任，好像還很不好意思，不會啦！你是行政院的小內閣，非常大的，要發揮你的power，好不好？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：會，我們會儘量來協調，因為……"],["陳委員超明：多久時間？我們一直在等待啊！我回到地方，都被鄉親質疑是不是要取消了？中央不支持，中央只支持南部，不支持北部、不支持苗栗縣啦！既然計畫已經核定了，應該要全力推動，好不好？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：嗯！嗯！"],["陳委員超明：好，這是第一點。","第二點，你的工作內容裡面有協調推動AI新十大建設，這裡面分的看起來很好，但是我有一點，AI軟體的產業你們放在數位部，這個一定要跟經濟部做結合，因為這裡面有很多軟體要實際運作，實際跟工廠討論才有辦法。我知道你們AI十大建設好像是分贓一樣，這個部會多少錢，這個都要跨部會合作，不是那麼簡單一個部會就可以。再來，裡面我有意見的地方，就是全球AI機器人供應鏈的樞紐，你們擺在國科會，我有時候就覺得很懷疑，是要給大學的還是什麼來做？這個跟產業鏈有關係，跟哪一家工廠特殊有關係，跟哪一種引擎有關係，這邊都沒有，只有國科會分給大學去研究，他要對產業很了解才可以啦！不是憑空想像的，我希望你們能務實，這一點真的有幾個地方要討論一下，你點頭是怎樣？可以不可以？你可以回答。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：我知道委員的關心，我也認同其實產業的發展不光是在學校，而且產業之間要互相配合，所以我們其實也有某一些計畫是在鼓勵……"],["陳委員超明：我真的講，你們要務實。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：大學要有一個育才中心……"],["陳委員超明：這個是關鍵的時候，現在不是在臺灣裡面說你很厲害、很內行，而是世界各國都在拚，這個競爭已經非常激烈了。再來，重大的公共建設，楊瓊瓔委員也有談到，有很多預算都過了，你們還丟在那邊，好像都不敢動，每次都說財政收支劃分法還沒有確定怎麼樣，那是今年的預算耶！已經編在裡面也不核定，這個政府要拚命一點，顏色不要那麼重，你會不會顏色很重？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：不會啊！"],["陳委員超明：我希望你不會。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：大家都為全體民眾服務。"],["陳委員超明：但是每一個人都講不會，都是講為國家來做服務，但是做事情不要這樣，我們已經明顯的看出來，要把你們點出來的東西太多了，不勝枚舉，我們憋在心裡啊！現在大罷免完之後，就要真的做事情啊！還有延攬國外的人才很重要，但是你要記得，我們薪資的競爭都比鄰近的日本、韓國還要低，不是只用嘴在喊提高薪資，不然我們臺灣……我一直在強調，臺灣會變成AI的訓練所，尤其這個執政黨到日本、到美國、到歐洲，我給你一個消息，日本要引進5萬個印度的AI人才，現在大家發現用印度人當CEO的話，公司都會倒，你沒看過這個資料，他會結幫結派，所以在這一方面，臺灣的人才訓練，水往低處流，人往高處爬，大家都到薪資高的地方，又有綠卡，臺灣又在地緣政治裡面、戰爭邊緣，大家都要跑，我們不要去做人家的奴才，我們難道不應該舉才進用，讓我們的人才留在臺灣嗎？這個真的未來會發生一個非常嚴重的問題，你們每天講得很好聽，說我要如何、我要如何，我實在很擔心，真的，你多看那一些。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好。"],["陳委員超明：日本要引進AI人才，要從印度引進5萬人，你看這個世界是怎麼在拚的，不是我們口講的那一些，真的我們要面臨很多問題，那我們現在都自我陶醉說我們很強，我們不怕人家戰爭。","再來，今天很多人在問，我有一點很遺憾，國發會的主委不曉得我們蕭副總統說除了台積電，要把ICT的生態產業鏈外移到美國，我們要到美國開類科學園區的方式，你曉得ICT是什麼？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：自動性產品。"],["陳委員超明：不是，除了晶圓，ICT就是封裝測試，高階的封裝測試。那我再跟主委討論一下，高階的封裝測試用人是最多的地方，什麼美國生產一半，臺灣生產一半，我們的根被割掉我們都不曉得啊！我請教你，你相信美國嗎？他是好人嗎？他真的照顧臺灣嗎？他要什麼你就乖乖給他，你以為那些參議員來這邊訪問做什麼？都是叫我們買武器。我也不曉得臺灣政府為什麼那麼相信他，我們的根都被挖光了，你們都沒有反應，說這個叫做擴展實力。我跟你說，有時候講起來、看起來很有道理，這叫做出賣臺灣，跟每一個國家在競爭，我錢多我去砸，我們臺灣不一定會贏人家耶！世界的人才很多，這是第一點。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：跟委員報告，那個50/50我們是不會……"],["陳委員超明：你做國發會主委，連政府都沒有通知你，楊瓊瓔委員很有人性，叫你三個月出報告，照這樣的話，不然我們立委怎麼曉得？兩天前的新聞出來，我們馬上要問對臺灣的影響會有多少？所以表示這個政府的反應很慢，這是大家關心的問題，確確實實會怎麼樣你們也不講明白，就說好啦！臺灣沒有關係、臺灣的實力很強、台積電很強。你們的報告說台積電只贏5年到10年，我們還要這樣自我陶醉，人才外流，什麼機器都外流到國外，大家都是拚自己的，管你臺灣是誰，在世界競爭生意都是這樣在拚的。","還有一點我仍然要談，台積電的2奈米技術已經外流到日本的TEL，他們也在試製2奈米，我們政府輕描淡寫，說這不是偷取，這個是轉移，非常的奇怪。2奈米的技術等於國安的技術，我們政府都不發聲，還是說「臺灣有事日本就有事」作為交換的條件，所以台積電2奈米技術被偷取了，然後日本沒有事情，我覺得這個政府也很怪，到底是為誰服務的？主委，鈴聲一直響，但我要好好跟你討論。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：沒有，因為剛剛委員……"],["陳委員超明：我覺得有很多問題都很重要，未來規劃臺灣的願景，你們都覺得沒有關係，臺灣就像溫水煮青蛙，你們這些官員從來沒有警惕的意思，好像臺灣世界無敵，我跟你講，要跟你學很快啦！"],["葉主任委員俊顯：沒有啦！我們也不會覺得……"],["陳委員超明：你看，連日本都有間諜來這邊偷我們2奈米，美國沒有間諜嗎？不要想得太天真了啦！謝謝。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來我們請黃國昌委員，請做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":52,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-5","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","謝衣鳯","邱志偉","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鄭正鈐","陳超明","黃國昌","賴瑞隆","呂玉玲","張嘉郡","蔡易餘","徐富癸","劉建國","林楚茵"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-20"],"gazette_id":"1148601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家發展委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148601_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}