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請葉主委我們再請葉主委委員長主委"},{"start":20.632,"end":43.707,"text":"日本是我們台灣的第三大的貿易夥伴在這個月初的時候台北市的日本商會他發布了2025年對台灣政府政策的建言的白皮書你有沒有看過有當然有看過那本席也針對這個白皮書特別去翻閱了我們也發現他特別有提到就像我們台灣在積極推動這個AI產業跟半導體產業"},{"start":49.143,"end":65.533,"text":"這兩樣產業這兩樣產業是非常耗電高耗電的那要穩定供電那目前我們的核電廠全部就已經停止運轉了當然我們台灣還是有做一些再生能源的建置但是穩定供電是非常的重要"},{"start":65.913,"end":84.903,"text":"那日本商會這邊特別就有提到所以我們可以看得出日本商會他是非常擔心我們沒有核能作為基載能源未來是否能夠讓他們能夠在這個合作上面會發生有任何的變化所以在能源方面"},{"start":86.363,"end":103.693,"text":"我們國發會也是可以是主導這個橫向各部會協調能源政策跟相關計畫的一個主則單位你對這方面對於新的能源政策你們有沒有能源的技術方面你們有沒有展開了這個研究這個研究我們會持續關注但這個核能的關注有沒有展開研究目前我們還沒有為什麼沒有"},{"start":114.059,"end":124.907,"text":"因為第一個就是說我們國內的那個核能的政策的話可能還是要有幾個步驟第一個就是說要有兩個程序我知道總統在我們核能這個公投之後的話總統有說過三樣這個原則下"},{"start":131.172,"end":147.217,"text":"沒有錯在三樣原則下你還是要做一些未以籌謀穩定供電在我們再生能源不夠穩定的當下你為什麼沒有說先來做一些準備呢會 會就謝謝委員的所以你要不要去研究會 謝謝委員新的能源技術要去研究嘛好"},{"start":148.217,"end":164.683,"text":"那現在再來要跟你提到的就是我們一些人口老化高齡化少子化的情形那在整個勞動力的市場上來講的話我們是對缺工是非常的嚴重在這白皮書裡面也有提到這缺工的問題"},{"start":165.843,"end":184.441,"text":"缺工的产业包括就是服务业跟制造业这两方面那我们看到我们政府对于这个自动化的提升这个部分的话只有协助到这个低碳转型跟数位的转型那请问一下未来对这两个产业的话我们能不能也来做自动化的相关的补助"},{"start":185.527,"end":197.681,"text":"會會會因為就好像我剛剛跟大家分享就是說經濟部的那個所以你會協調經濟部對這兩個產業進行自動化提升的而且已經工作效率的補助有這個預算"},{"start":201.165,"end":227.927,"text":"這樣子的話才能讓我們缺工的問題能夠獲得解決那再來要跟你提到就是日本也是我們半導體產業設備重要的供應國家那我們看到這個在日本企業的東京威力科創他們的員工跟我們台積電的員工合作偷取竊取了2奈米的先進製程這件事情諸位也是知道嘛"},{"start":229.528,"end":245.976,"text":"在這種事情發生的時候主委對半導體先進製程這個核心的技術我們要保障這個國際的競爭力那這個技術是很重要的要好好去保護它的所以在這方面的話我們國家有國安法還有這個產業的"},{"start":248.177,"end":267.538,"text":"這個營業的這個秘密法對事後會有一個處分但是我們有未來可以怎麼去對於未來如果去防範對於這個半導體這個產業他們的如果在內部的管理上人員管理上或者治安的防護機制上你們也能夠做哪些的防護跟保護管理"},{"start":269.363,"end":297.008,"text":"因為這個部分來講我們有一支計畫有次在跟那個疏防部在做合作那會就整個那個治安的疏防部要怎麼做他們溝通他做什麼防護他有在持續的研究就是說在那個是不是有一些APP啊或者是我們希望有事前的防護比事後的處分來的重要而且高科技了所以這方面的話主委你能提到具體的"},{"start":298.547,"end":310.891,"text":"你應該很了解 具體的如何去防護呢第一個當然就台積電這個半導體這件事情的話它會裡面 對 它可能你看過白皮書了 白皮書有提到對"},{"start":314.884,"end":344.096,"text":"所以诸位他们要求的就是我们对于业者在内部资讯的安全管理跟机密的分级授权跟人员的审查一定要深化国际的合作的同时也能够守护到产业的竞争力这就是你当前要注意要去做的所以不要丢给速发部我对速发部也没有信心我不晓得他在做什么连一个诈骗他都没办法处理了"},{"start":345.056,"end":371.55,"text":"所以主委您是橫跨各部會的協調溝通相關產業你要積極的努力朝這方面來做好不好謝謝委員那接下來想請問主委的就是說我們國發基金啊對於投資方面的話我們有外部的審查委員制的方式嗎對不對有沒有有那為什麼像這個爐心公司啊他這個指標"},{"start":375.987,"end":404.119,"text":"我們外部審查的時候有提醒你他會虧損但是你們還堅持要投資是什麼原因跟委員報告就是說我們的審查的機制會送外省然後外省的意見回來之後的話我們會中整之後給那一個所以你中整了還是要投資因為我們不會只給一個委員看通常會有三個委員所以就好像你拿到"},{"start":405.74,"end":418.647,"text":"審查報告的時候 有一個會很好可能啦 另外一個會很差他提醒你的是什麼 毛利率過低而且整體的規劃設計技術各方面他沒有做出一個策略的規劃性這個一點這麼多 你們內部"},{"start":421.989,"end":438.551,"text":"你們內部可以棄盤點的話你就不用請外部 那外部給你建議你又不用那這樣子的話你這個沒有做一個具體的棄盤整的話那整個是虛有其表而且對整個基金的投資還執意的造成了一個損失 你們"},{"start":440.069,"end":453.559,"text":"國發會要不要負起責任跟委員報告就是說我們內部的委員不去做外部的審查所以你把他推給委員嗎那些委員是誰聘的不夠專業嗎我們有一個那個委員的那一個治療庫"},{"start":455.56,"end":475.994,"text":"所以你們委員不夠專業也請外面的省和投省單位來做一個評估評估告訴你就是毛利率很低他們沒有前瞻性未來性的一些戰略策略在裡面你們還要投資那表示你們整體作業投資把人民的納稅錢就當一回事了嗎"},{"start":476.614,"end":488.923,"text":"跟委員報告就是說裡面會有一個報告是不好的但其他的可能是很好的話就需要那個管理委員事實已經呈現他就是失敗的好我再提一個聯合再生的公司的投資案"},{"start":491.377,"end":518.569,"text":"他們有17位委員你說推給委員我就告訴你這個聯合再生公司你就是17位委員要來進行投票但是有6位委員請假一位用代理的可以用代理來投票嗎這不是要專業嗎他是代理的話他整個了解整個事業體嗎所以他投出來的票8票同意那是不是不同意的人就要請假不要來"},{"start":519.834,"end":544.286,"text":"這個部分跟委員報告就是說我們已經就這個部分就是說代理的問題的話我們有提出一系列的改進方案所以我本身在這邊建議以後不要用代理的而且你17位就要17位通通來投票請假你可以調整一下時間你六位不來那六位是不同意你就要不要來啊我可以合理懷疑嗎因為基本上我們管理委員會的委員很多都是部長"},{"start":545.202,"end":566.102,"text":"那有的時候就是說他們時間上面來講的話沒有辦法配合部長要更關心這件事情那你說部長不關心那你就不要把投資人的錢亂丟我們在新的版本裡面我們會對這個一定要嚴格好不好會有比較嚴格的一個要求在這個投審的地方國發基金要審慎投資好 謝謝好 謝謝韋"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":597,"blocks":[["呂委員玉玲：（11時39分）謝謝主席，請葉主委。"],["主席：我們再請葉主委。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：委員早。"],["呂委員玉玲：主委，日本是臺灣的第三大貿易夥伴，在這個月初，臺北市日本商會發布2025年對臺灣政府政策的建言白皮書，你有沒有看過？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：有，當然看過。"],["呂委員玉玲：本席也特別去翻閱白皮書，發現它特別提到……像臺灣積極推動AI產業跟半導體兩樣產業，但這兩樣產業非常耗電，屬於高耗電產業，所以就要穩定供電。目前我們的核電廠已經全部停止運轉，雖然臺灣還是有做再生能源的建置，但穩定供電仍非常重要。日本商會特別提到這點，這也讓我們看出日本商會非常擔心我們在沒有核能作為基載能源的情況下，未來是否會在合作上發生變化？以能源來說，國發會可以說是主導並橫向協調各部會能源政策跟相關計畫的主責單位，對於這方面，對於新的能源政策，譬如能源的技術方面，你們有沒有展開研究？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：這個研究我們會持續關注，但核能……"],["呂委員玉玲：只關注？有沒有展開研究？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：目前我們還沒有。"],["呂委員玉玲：為什麼沒有？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：第一個，國內的核能政策可能還是要有幾個步驟，即兩個程序、三個原則……"],["呂委員玉玲：我知道。總統在核能公投之後有說過三個原則，沒有錯，但即使在三個原則下還是要未雨綢繆，以穩定供電。尤其在再生能源供應不夠穩定的當下，為什麼不先做準備呢？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：會，謝謝委員的提醒。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以你要不要去研究？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：會，謝謝委員提醒。"],["呂委員玉玲：新的能源技術要去研究。再來要提到的就是人口老化、高齡化、少子化的情形，就整個勞動力市場來講，缺工狀況非常嚴重，白皮書裡也有提到缺工問題。目前缺工的產業包括服務業跟製造業，但政府對於自動化的提升只協助低碳轉型跟數位轉型，請問未來對這兩個產業能不能給予自動化的相關補助？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：會，如同我剛剛跟大家分享的，經濟部特別……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以你會協調經濟部對這兩個產業進行自動化提升及工作效率的補助……"],["葉主任委員俊顯：而且已經編列460億的預算。"],["呂委員玉玲：有這項預算？好。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：有、有。"],["呂委員玉玲：有？好，這樣才能讓我們缺工的問題能夠獲得解決。再來，日本也是我們半導體產業設備重要的供應國家，但我們看到日本企業東京威力科創員工跟台積電員工合作，竊取2奈米先進製程，這件事情主委應該知道。由於發生這種事情，所以對於半導體先進製程的核心技術我們要保障國際競爭力，這個技術是很重要的，要好好去保護。在這方面，我們有國安法，還有跟產業相關的營業秘密法可以做事後的處分。但未來我們對如何防範半導體產業，如何對其內部管理、人員管理或在資安防護機制上做到哪些防護、保護跟管理？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：就這部分來講，我們跟數發部有合作計畫，會就整個資安的防護……"],["呂委員玉玲：怎麼跟數發部合作？做什麼防護？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：我們有計畫在持續研究，做app或是……"],["呂委員玉玲：事前的防護比事後處分來得重要，畢竟這是屬於高科技的。我想這方面主委應該很瞭解，所以到底該如何具體防護？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：就台積電半導體來說，他可能……"],["呂委員玉玲：你說你看過白皮書，其實白皮書中有提到。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：對。"],["呂委員玉玲：主委，他們要求我們對於業者的內部資訊安全管理，跟機密的分級、授權與人員審查，一定要深化國際合作，同時也能守護產業競爭力，這就是你當前要注意、要去做的。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：謝謝委員。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以不要丟給數發部。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好。"],["呂委員玉玲：我對數發部也沒有信心，根本不曉得在做什麼，連詐騙都沒辦法處理了！所以主委，您要橫跨各部會去做協調溝通，對於相關產業要積極努力，朝這方面來做，好不好？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好，謝謝委員。"],["呂委員玉玲：接下來想請問主委，國發基金對於投資有外部的審查，採委員制方式，對不對？有沒有？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：有。"],["呂委員玉玲：像如興公司這個指標，在外部審查時有提醒會虧損，但你們還是堅持要投資，到底是什麼原因？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：跟委員報告，我們的審查機制會送外審，外審意見回來之後我們會綜整，之後給那個……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以在綜整之後還是要投資？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：我們不會只給一個委員看，通常會有三個委員。這就好像拿到審查報告後，有一個覺得很好，另外一個覺得很差……"],["呂委員玉玲：他提醒你什麼？毛利率過低，而且整體的規劃、設計、技術各方面沒有做策略規劃，疑點這麼多，你們內部……如果你們內部有盤點的話，就不用送外部審查；而外部審查給你們建議了，你們又不用？你們沒有做具體盤整，讓審查虛有其表，執意投資，造成基金的損失，請問國發會要不要負起責任？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：跟委員報告，我們內部委員不做外部審查……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以你推給委員啊！這些委員是誰聘的？不夠專業嗎？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：我們有委員資料庫，我們是隨機……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以你們委員不夠專業，只好請外面的投審單位做評估，而評估結果告訴你毛利率很低，沒有前瞻性、未來性的戰略與策略，這樣你們還要投資？表示你們的整體投資作業並不把人民的納稅錢當一回事！"],["葉主任委員俊顯：跟委員報告，如果裡面有一個報告是不好的，但其他的報告卻很好的話，需要管理委員會……"],["呂委員玉玲：事實已經呈現，它就是失敗的！好，我再提聯合再生公司的投資案為例，有17位委員……你推給委員，我就告訴你，這家聯合再生公司由17位委員進行投票。其中有6位委員請假，1位用代理的，但可以用代理來投票嗎？這不是需要專業？代理的了解整個事業體嗎？所以投出來的票有8票同意，是不是不同意的人就要他請假不要來？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：這部分跟委員報告，我們已經就代理的問題提出一系列的改進方案……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以我本席建議，以後不要用代理！既然是17位，那麼這17位就要通通來投票；至於要請假的，就調整一下時間。如果有6位不來，難道是因為這6位不同意，所以就不要來？我可以合理懷疑嗎？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：基本上我們管理委員會的委員很多都是部長，有的時候部長在時間上沒有辦法配合……"],["呂委員玉玲：部長就更該關心這件事情！"],["葉主任委員俊顯：會、會。"],["呂委員玉玲：如果部長不關心，那就不要把投資人的錢亂丟！"],["葉主任委員俊顯：我們在新的版本裡會對這點……"],["呂委員玉玲：一定要嚴格，好不好？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：會有比較嚴格的要求。"],["呂委員玉玲：對，這是投審的地方，所以國發基金要審慎投資，謝謝。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：謝謝委員。"],["主席：接下來我們請張嘉郡委員詢答。我們今天中午不休息，延長開會時間到議程處理完畢。謝謝，請發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":52,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-5","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","謝衣鳯","邱志偉","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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