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你看一下這個"},{"start":211.892,"end":228.958,"text":"就是原來王國才部長等等的那時候我們費了很大的心力這個是規劃路線什麼都有了所以新北市政府是不是公然欺騙所有的市民他們說沒有規劃路線"},{"start":231.617,"end":241.681,"text":"這都在這裡喔他們公然欺騙喔 對不對這個他們現在新北市政府說預留廊道跟預留轉接點"},{"start":243.946,"end":268.619,"text":"有預留就是現在不做而已啊要等以後做嘛 對不對是不是這個意思我們要預留未來的可能性就是希望未來可以做社後支線的這個部分對嘛 這是新北市政府態度不是交通部的態度新北市政府是說未來再做吧他的意思是這樣嘛沒錯嘛好 所以我一直覺得這個要一併處理"},{"start":270.883,"end":295.824,"text":"我希望我們交通部要堅持立場一併處理我為什麼要這樣子講因為新北市政府一直欺騙新北市市民說規劃路線是在中正路中正路太小了他隱瞞了這條路線不讓新北市的市民知道早就有這條路線為什麼很簡單這是我的政見在選舉的時候"},{"start":299.113,"end":324.541,"text":"另外一個國民黨的人他是反對社會有捷運的啊對不對我們不能為了選舉然後模式的我們板橋我們社會十幾萬居民的權利對不對吧部長所有的交通建設尤其是像板橋這麼人口擁擠跟密集的地方我相信很多的市民跟鄉親都很期待有更好的交通建設這個我們要一起來努力"},{"start":325.612,"end":344.051,"text":"對 我跟你講建設是不分黨派的我覺得我們尤其是中央政府我們一定要照顧所有的人我不反對太本輕軌的建設但交通部從以前到現在就已經一句話而已你新北市你報上來我錢就給你了"},{"start":345.214,"end":361.524,"text":"對不對但是新北市政府刻意不把這個路線劃進去他是對不起我們新北市市民尤其是我們板橋的市民他可能也覺得他任期快到了他剩下的做也沒多久了"},{"start":362.845,"end":386.288,"text":"那如果這樣的話不能對不起我們新北市民尤其是板橋市民啊交通部的錢都準備好了我們應該要求他把這條路線規劃進來啊我不知道部長你的看法我們目前正在審查當中針對這個太阪輕軌的部分那當時我們交通部確實也有希望說把涉後的延伸線的部分也一併進來"},{"start":387.529,"end":396.115,"text":"那目前當然我們還在審查的過程當中我們去了解說審查的必要條件是哪些如果這一條是重要我們當然會一併希望他能夠一併討論"},{"start":398.288,"end":419.117,"text":"我希望是這一點交通部要堅持要堅持這一條一定要放下來你這麼多錢都放下去了你新北市政府他現在預留一個廊道預留一個轉接口那未來如果要再二次施工這個工程會比現在一次性的施工"},{"start":420.578,"end":434.531,"text":"更好還是更不好當然是一次性施工大家可以更早完成這件事當然是比較好的而且工程的技術門檻也比較低吧一起規劃吧 對不對所以部長我必須要在這邊要跟你說這個要堅持住"},{"start":439.476,"end":456.614,"text":"這個要堅持住不能讓新北市亂搞也不能讓我們板橋在這邊十幾萬而且現在是十幾萬喔在未來人口會更多那邊是重劃區而且現在板南縣每天大家都"},{"start":457.834,"end":483.209,"text":"車子都搭不上捷運吧 這部長你知道吧都非常的擁擠不只擁擠喔 是坐不上去喔我也開過好多次 開過協調會你們的人應該有跟你講過啦所以 部長我們可不可以堅持好 這個部分我們來堅持好 謝謝你喔那我不好意思 我請一下卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":492.193,"end":511.153,"text":"謝謝張委員好不好意思這個院長剛剛我跟陳部長講的院長都有聽到我真的是希望說這個交通部我們陳部長剛剛也有說了那我也要在這邊再拜託這院長我們的施政我們的建設我們的補助"},{"start":511.934,"end":532.081,"text":"真的要以人民需求來考量啦我們不能為了新北市政府他自己的選舉去幫他背書啦我真的要拜託院長也支持陳部長這個我們的對這個色後輕軌的這一個態度我不知道院長能不能支持我替我們板橋民眾說一下話"},{"start":534.102,"end":563.126,"text":"不只交通部 我想我們整個市政都是以人民的需求為出發點不會考慮到黨派或選舉的各項的利益跟因素不不不 現在是新北市在考慮黨派跟選舉我們不會考慮啦 我們不會考慮所以我希望院長能夠堅持啦替我們板橋的市民 某一點公平啦如果部裡面可以主動詢問 主動關心或主動做一些動作的話也可以這麼去主動跟新北市政府來說要求溝通"},{"start":563.706,"end":585.3,"text":"好 謝謝院長院長你先請坐沒有關係你先坐一下再來 部長我上次有質詢高鐵進勞卡可不可以搭高鐵這件事我不知道高鐵這邊他們研議的如何部長導考"},{"start":586.314,"end":607.566,"text":"報告委員我目前在設備上面應該是沒有問題就是說如果是要那個卡包含悠遊卡也好或者是銀行的聯名卡如果把敬老的這個點數放在裡面要用這個卡是沒有問題但是敬老的點數到底可不可以使用在這裡面可能我們需要跨單位大家來溝通這個部長"},{"start":610.239,"end":634.398,"text":"之前台鐵可以用敬老卡搭台鐵也是我努力了5、6年才可以搭的我跟你講一個很簡單台鐵為什麼現在台鐵當初也是這樣講這個敬老卡到底怎麼樣怎麼樣他們沒有辦法控制不過還是上次我諮詢說你只要把它建制完成"},{"start":635.441,"end":643.591,"text":"我跟你講地方政府人家就會做台鐵非常明顯的例子就在這裡了而且我上次有"},{"start":645.102,"end":671.532,"text":"總諮詢的時候這個左院長也說要支持因為我們花的錢不多7000多萬而已對不對在整個政府裡面的總預算7000多萬其實我認為是還合理然後讓我們所有的長者進勞卡他可以去搭高鐵我跟你講地方政府就會配合台鐵一開始也說沒有結果人家現在有的縣市"},{"start":673.032,"end":689.257,"text":"一個月可以有300點搭台鐵了那如果你把它建置好人家有的縣市人家有的有1000多有的有多少人家他要500點可以搭高鐵他就可以搭一趟了我真的覺得說要讓"},{"start":691.156,"end":718.358,"text":"長者有方便性我不知道布政你的看法包委員我覺得這個方便性可以提供的話我們當然要盡量來做目前其實不管是用悠遊卡或者是一卡通只要是跟銀行有聯名的儲值的功能在高鐵上面坐自由座是可以用的所以縣市政府如果他的敬老卡是綁悠遊卡或者是綁一卡通基本上現在要搭自由座是可以的"},{"start":719.886,"end":736.866,"text":"我知道那個是有的縣市並不是所有的縣市我們只要花了這7000多萬我們把跟台鐵一樣你把這個建制好了我的所有的敬老卡我都可以去搭高鐵"},{"start":737.927,"end":756.156,"text":"我覺得把它建制好台灣是一個進步的國家我們花了這些錢把這個把它建制好地方政府就會配合了啊我的意思是這樣部長你懂嗎我在態度上是支持啦我在態度上支持我來跟高鐵公司來這邊演繹看看"},{"start":756.876,"end":775.034,"text":"因為畢竟他們是上市櫃公司我們來跟他們研議看看看可不可以做這方面的服務報告委員這個在推動電子票證的過程我們必須努力如果電子票證的推動過程加上系統的前後台都能夠完整的話那目前台鐵的進導塔也只有12個縣市是開放的"},{"start":777.156,"end":793.438,"text":"那我們去了解一下台鐵這樣的經驗推動到現在的經驗或許朝這個方向已經是有一個可以依循的方式我請交通部你們就去排除現在的困難我想下次在面對委員質詢之前我們應該把這個事情做一個定案"},{"start":795.3,"end":812.253,"text":"其實問題不困難解決啦交通部你只要補助高鐵這筆錢就問題解決了啦就是很簡單的一句話嘛你補助他做 他就做了嘛 對不對那我覺得這個補助雖然他是一個民營上市貴的公司"},{"start":813.334,"end":837.823,"text":"他是全台灣人都在通用的我覺得這一點可能要拜託了好不好好 謝謝請回 院長你也請回我再請一下文化部長麻煩請文化部長備選部長我想請問一下我們板橋兒童未來館現在的進度如何"},{"start":839.022,"end":857.864,"text":"好 謝謝委員關心這個一切都按照原來進度最近我們跟新北市政府也開了很多會對於很多細部的動線都討論完今年9月1號國家人口未來管理新建工程基地的一個勘察由行政院公共委員會來勘察過"},{"start":859.365,"end":860.306,"text":"建造的取得會不會有問題"},{"start":880.458,"end":908.084,"text":"到目前為止一切按照進度中間有一些細節我已經跟新北市討論了很多原來有一些小小的困難那空橋的問題解決了嗎也是在 對因為原來這幾個問題都滿困難但新北市政府也全力協調我們協助我們所以到目前為止一切都按照原定計畫沒有問題所以建造拿到的日期不會拖延喔"},{"start":909.604,"end":924.627,"text":"不會 到目前我們就按照進度我只問建造拿到的日期會不會拖延會不會拖延啦 我們盡快按照我們原來的進度嘛這個會不會拖延是要審查那個部長我知道你也不是建築專家好 謝謝張宏祿委員質詢謝謝卓院長各相關部會首長備詢 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":734,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（11時34分）先請交通部長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長。"],["張委員宏陸：不，是交通部長。"],["主席：更正，麻煩請交通部長備詢。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["張委員宏陸：部長，新北市泰板輕軌的規劃路線已經報部了嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，他們有報部，目前是在可行性研究當中，鐵道局也正在審查當中。"],["張委員宏陸：其實這條路線部長應該也知道，我已經很久很久都在關注這一條啦。"],["陳部長世凱：對，您也跟我討論過好幾次。"],["張委員宏陸：本來是從社後捷運變社後輕軌，然後現在又延伸到泰板輕軌。當初我也跟吳部長、林佳龍部長爭取，交通部給他們好幾百萬可行性評估計畫的經費。"],["陳部長世凱：可行性評估的預算。"],["張委員宏陸：而且我也多次的質詢，譬如說，在2023年9月17日前交通部王國材部長就有說，要將社後支線納入泰板輕軌規劃案的條件之一，這是王國材部長有講的；然後2023年10月17日在我總質詢的時候，王國材部長也在這邊公開說我們會支持社後輕軌，而且那時候陳建仁院長也說確實有必要，那時候的院長跟交通部部長都說要支持，而且是經費也都準備好了，那時候都有這樣說；我在2024年3月8日再次質詢，那時候王部長又公開說了，他們提出來，中央該給多少補助就給多少補助，這是沒有問題的，錢都準備好了。現在他們報上來這裡，部長，我不知道他們有沒有把社後輕軌納入？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，目前在泰板輕軌的可行性研究裡面確實是有留這個岔道，也就是說，未來社後線的延伸部分是有留這個可能性，這個可能性是有留著，但新北市政府給我們的回報是說，目前還沒有找到適合的路。不過委員剛剛講的沒有錯，就是過去您在委員會質詢也好，或者是說您也有找我討論過這個事情，交通部目前的立場也沒有改變，對於這件事情，我們依然是支持，希望可以做得到。"],["張委員宏陸：我要在這邊跟部長您說一下，你看一下這個規劃路線，這個就是原來王國材部長等等，那時候我們費了很大的心力，規劃路線什麼都有了，所以新北市政府是不是公然欺騙所有的市民？他們說沒有規劃路線，但都在這裡囉，他們公然欺騙喔！對不對？現在新北市政府預留廊道跟預留轉接點，有預留就是現在不做而已啊，要等以後做嘛，對不對？是不是這個意思？"],["陳部長世凱：我們要預留未來的可能性，就是希望未來可以做社後支線的部分。"],["張委員宏陸：對嘛，這是新北市政府的態度，不是交通部的態度，新北市政府是說未來再做吧，它的意思是這樣，沒錯嘛？"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒錯。"],["張委員宏陸：好，所以我一直覺得這個要一併處理，我希望交通部要堅持立場，一併處理。我為什麼要這樣子講？因為新北市政府一直欺騙新北市市民，說規劃路線是在中正路啦，中正路太小啦，它隱瞞了這條路線，不讓新北市的市民知道早就有這條路線。為什麼？很簡單啊，這是我的政見啊！在選舉的時候，另外一個國民黨的人是反對社後有捷運的啊！我們不能為了選舉，然後漠視了我們板橋、社後十幾萬居民的權利，對不對？部長。"],["陳部長世凱：沒有錯，所有的交通建設，尤其是像板橋人口這麼擁擠跟密集的地方，我相信很多的市民跟鄉親都很期待有更好的交通建設，這個我們要一起來努力。"],["張委員宏陸：對，我跟你講，建設是不分黨派的啦！我覺得尤其是中央政府，我們一定要照顧所有的人。我不反對泰板輕軌的建設，但交通部從以前到現在就一句話而已：你新北市報上來，我錢就給你。對不對？但是新北市政府刻意不把這個路線劃進去，它對不起我們新北市市民，尤其是我們板橋的市民。他可能覺得自己的任期快到了，再做也沒多久了啦！如果這樣的話，不能對不起我們新北市民，尤其是板橋的市民啊！交通部的錢都準備好了，我們應該要求他把這條路線規劃進來啊！我不知道部長的看法？"],["陳部長世凱：我們目前正在審查當中，針對這個泰板輕軌的部分，當時我們交通部確實有希望社後延伸線的部分也一併進來，目前當然我們還在審查的過程當中，我們會去瞭解審查的必要條件是哪些，如果這一條是重要的，我們當然會希望它能夠一併討論。"],["張委員宏陸：我希望交通部要堅持這一條一定要放進來，這麼多錢都放下去了，新北市政府現在預留一個廊道、預留一個轉接口，未來如果要再二次施工，這個工程會比現在一次性施工更好還是更不好？"],["陳部長世凱：當然是一次性施工，大家可以更早完成這件事，當然是比較好的。"],["張委員宏陸：而且工程的技術門檻也比較低吧？因為一起規劃嘛，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：當然、當然。"],["張委員宏陸：所以部長，我必須在這邊跟你說，這個要堅持住啦！"],["陳部長世凱：好，這個我們來討論。"],["張委員宏陸：不能讓新北市亂搞啦！也不能我們板橋這邊，現在是十幾萬人口，未來人口會更多，因為那邊是重劃區，而且現在板南線大家每天都搭不上捷運，這個狀況部長知道吧？"],["陳部長世凱：都非常擁擠。"],["張委員宏陸：不只擁擠，是坐不上去喔！"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["張委員宏陸：我也為此開過協調會，你們的人應該有跟你講過。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["張委員宏陸：所以部長可不可以堅持？"],["陳部長世凱：好，這個部分我們來堅持。"],["張委員宏陸：謝謝你。","不好意思，我請一下卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。張委員好。"],["張委員宏陸：不好意思，院長，剛剛我跟陳部長講的，院長都有聽到啦？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["張委員宏陸：我真的是希望能這樣。交通部陳部長剛剛也說了，我也要在這邊再拜託院長，我們的施政、我們的建設、我們的補助真的要以人民需求來考量，不能為了新北市政府他自己的選舉去幫他背書，我真的要拜託院長支持陳部長對社後輕軌的態度。不知道院長能不能支持我，替我們板橋民眾說一下話？"],["卓院長榮泰：不只交通部，我們整個施政都是以人民的需求為出發點，不會考慮到黨派或選舉的各項利益跟因素。"],["張委員宏陸：不、不、不！現在是新北市在考慮黨派跟選舉。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們不會考慮。"],["張委員宏陸：所以我希望院長能夠堅持……"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["張委員宏陸：替我們板橋的市民謀求一點公平啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：如果部裡面可以主動詢問、主動關心或主動做一些動作的話，可以主動跟新北市政府要求溝通。"],["張委員宏陸：好，謝謝院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["張委員宏陸：院長，你先請坐。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有關係、沒有關係。"],["張委員宏陸：沒有，你先坐一下。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有關係、沒有關係，沒問題。"],["張委員宏陸：接下來，部長，我上次也有質詢敬老卡可不可以搭高鐵這件事，不知道高鐵他們研議得如何？"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長答復。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，目前在設備上面應該是沒有問題，就是說如果是要那個卡，包含悠遊卡也好，或者是銀行的聯名卡，如果把敬老的點數放在裡面，要用這個卡是沒有問題，但是敬老的點數到底可不可以使用在這裡面，需要跨單位大家來溝通。"],["張委員宏陸：部長，之前可以用敬老卡搭臺鐵也是我努力了五、六年才可以搭的，我跟你講一個很簡單的，臺鐵為什麼現在可以？臺鐵當初也是這樣講，說這個敬老卡到底怎麼樣、怎麼樣，他們沒有辦法控制。不過還是上次我質詢說的，你只要把它建置完成，我跟你講，地方政府人家就會做，臺鐵非常明顯的例子就在這裡，而且我上次總質詢的時候，卓院長也說要支持，因為我們花的錢不多，七千多萬而已，對不對？在整個政府總預算裡面的七千多萬，其實我認為是還合理。然後讓我們所有長者的敬老卡可以去搭高鐵，我跟你講，地方政府就會配合，臺鐵一開始也說沒有，結果現在有的縣市一個月可以有300點搭臺鐵了，如果你把它建置好，有的縣市有一千多、有的有多少，人家要500點可以搭高鐵，他就可以搭一趟了。我真的覺得要讓長者有方便性，我不知道部長的看法如何？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我覺得這個方便性可以提供的話，我們當然要儘量來做，目前其實不管是用悠遊卡或者是一卡通，只要是跟銀行有聯名的儲值功能，在高鐵上面坐自由座是可以用的，所以如果縣市政府的敬老卡是綁悠遊卡或者是綁一卡通，基本上現在要搭自由座是可以的。"],["張委員宏陸：我知道，那是有的縣市，並不是所有的縣市。我們只要花了這七千多萬，跟臺鐵一樣把這個建置好了，所有的敬老卡都可以去搭高鐵，我覺得把它建置好。臺灣是一個進步的國家，我們花了這些錢把它建置好，地方政府就會配合了啊！我的意思是這樣，部長你懂嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我在態度上是支持，我來跟高鐵公司這邊研議看看，因為畢竟他們是上市櫃公司，我們來跟他們研議看看，看可不可以做這方面的服務。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，在推動電子票證的過程我們必須努力，如果電子票證的推動過程加上系統的前後臺都能夠完整的話，目前臺鐵的敬老卡也只有12個縣市是開放的，我們去了解一下臺鐵推動到現在的經驗，或許朝這個方向已經是有一個可以依循的方式，我請交通部去排除那些困難，我想在下次面對委員質詢之前，我們應該把這個事情做一個定案。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["張委員宏陸：好啦，這要拜託啦。其實問題不困難解決，交通部只要補助高鐵這筆錢，問題就解決了，就是很簡單的一句話嘛！你補助它做，它就做了，對不對？我覺得這個補助雖然是一個民營、上市櫃的公司，但它是全臺灣人都在通用的，我覺得這一點可能要拜託啦，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["卓院長榮泰：好的。"],["張委員宏陸：好，謝謝，請回，院長你也請回。","我再請一下文化部長。"],["主席：麻煩請文化部長備詢。"],["張委員宏陸：部長，我想請問一下，我們板橋兒童未來館現在的進度如何？"],["李部長遠：好，謝謝委員關心。這個一切都按照原來進度，最近我們跟新北市政府也開了很多會，對於很多細部的動線都討論完，今年9月1日國家兒童未來館新建工程基地的勘查，由行政院公共委員會來勘查過，細部的審查也提出意見，那麼我們同步的設計，也已經進行到細部設計，目前一切按照原訂計畫，在2026年完成建築設計，交由內政部國土管理署辦理工程招標，預計在2030年完工。"],["張委員宏陸：建照的取得會不會有問題？"],["李部長遠：到目前為止，一切按照進度，中間有一些細節，我已經跟新北市討論了很多，原來有一些小小的困難……"],["張委員宏陸：空橋的問題解決了嗎？"],["李部長遠：對，因為原來這幾個問題都滿困難，但新北市政府也全力協助我們，所以到目前為止一切都按照原訂計畫，沒有問題。"],["張委員宏陸：所以建照拿到的日期不會拖延？"],["李部長遠：不會。"],["張委員宏陸：絕對不會？"],["李部長遠：到目前我們就按照進度，明年……"],["張委員宏陸：我只問建照拿到的日期會不會拖延？"],["李部長遠：關於建照拿到會不會拖延，我們會儘快按照我們原來進度……"],["張委員宏陸：我跟你講，我知道有……"],["李部長遠：會不會拖延是審查的……"],["張委員宏陸：不是啦，部長，我知道你也不是建築專業，但有一些問題亟待我們解決啦！"],["李部長遠：沒問題，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張宏陸委員質詢，謝謝卓院長及各相關部會首長備詢，謝謝。","報告院會，議場二樓旁聽席又來了一批好朋友，是臺北市陳炳甫議員志工團的好朋友，我們掌聲歡迎。","今天上午的質詢到此為止，謝謝林月琴委員、羅廷瑋委員一起參與上午行政院院長的施政質詢。上午質詢到此為止，下午2時30分繼續開會，進行質詢，現在休息。","休息（11時50分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"院會-11-4-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","蔡其昌","洪孟楷","陳素月","王育敏","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","蘇清泉","張宏陸","邱鎮軍","吳沛憶","馬文君","廖偉翔","林月琴","游顥"],"page_start":373,"meetingDate":["2025-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1148002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148002_00006","1148002_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1148002_00005"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}