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院長好 我們有請卓院長麻煩請卓院長備詢"},{"start":27.438,"end":42.081,"text":"我還是稱邱委員好院長好我想請教一下我們苗栗的自來水普及率只有87.6%比全國平均95.5%低了快8個百分點"},{"start":43.462,"end":61.961,"text":"我們蔡英文政府在2017年也就是在自來水普及率93.1%的時候明確定下目標就是希望2024年能夠達到95%那KPI設得很清楚所以從106年到110年全國普及率升了1.2個百分點平均一年成長0.3"},{"start":63.422,"end":87.166,"text":"那蔡政府的這個95%的目標4年就達成了那我想請問一下我們賴清德政府他有定下這個目標嗎我們未來有5年有計畫用200億5年的計畫200億希望把我們的這個那有沒有算過多少個百分點要提升多少"},{"start":88.578,"end":107.418,"text":"好像不到10個百分點一般委員因為苗栗它山區是比較多偏遠地區比較多所以施桌上會稍微困難但是我們會加大力道本來新的第五期本來就會加強比較偏遠地區的就是額度"},{"start":109.941,"end":132.583,"text":"我幫你這個粗算了一下苗栗會從80%未來5年如果我們投入的將近80%更高到87%有大概7個鄉鎮自來水普及率低於70%那有兩個鄉鎮其實就是我們部長講的就是我們斯坦跟泰安都兩個斯坦只有3.39%"},{"start":134.224,"end":147.671,"text":"那泰安只有2.27那當然是因為它是山區啦所以這個部分當然我不能這樣拿來比較我這樣大概算了一下6萬戶每戶大概2.4萬人大概14.4萬人全國人口數總共是2430萬從普及率95.81%算起"},{"start":158.357,"end":185.386,"text":"就算是全部結商5年最多只能變成96.4%5年106億 提200億大概提升到0.6到0.8%左右省紀不知要說按照現在的速度要248年大家才有自來水可以用我們沒有一個具體的目標嗎保安委員 所以因為在比較偏但是我們這個200億裡面的確有它的分配比如說"},{"start":187.472,"end":202.719,"text":"原住民地區它就會分配有一定的額度不會說金額會被其他的挪用走那是第一個第二個就是說因為你還是要如果要完全的接自來水管的話有時候會有它的困難那個時間也會拉長"},{"start":203.92,"end":217.425,"text":"但是我們會趕快用至少這個檢疫自來水可以我知道卓院長上任之後他在去年我們這個整個有調過本來是每戶60萬提高到80萬那水庫周邊面100萬這個我謝謝院長"},{"start":219.426,"end":238.276,"text":"但是我發現這樣速度還是很慢而且我看到數據非常奇怪提升自來水普及率照理來說應該要越來越高可是數據非常奇怪我們賴總統上任之後自來水普及率不增反減這是什麼原因從113年的6月95.81%起掉到114年的6月剩下95.55%為什麼會這樣這是你們給我的數據"},{"start":248.174,"end":267.276,"text":"我們是持續的在增加越到後端啦 它這個速度會越慢因為施工 它為什麼會減少呢那普及率為什麼會減少照理是人口成長才會減少嗎我們分母沒變大啊那為什麼這個數字是變小的呢這個數字我們再查證一下我猜到可能是統計不一樣啦"},{"start":268.397,"end":295.468,"text":"就是你們統計的方式不一樣統計的基礎可能會有落差還是你們換了方式在做計算但是苗栗的這個是一定的基準就像您剛才提到的從80現在變成87我們會持續的往上我希望這樣有一些地方當然它山區說實在要完全把管線牽完城確實不容易而且成本非常大但是有一些人口密集的部分還請我們這邊"},{"start":297.806,"end":308.621,"text":"行政院這邊多多幫忙所以剛剛委員也特別提到了我們把我們的那個比較偏遠地方的那個金額調高了最上限調高了那就至少可以把它"},{"start":309.307,"end":330.628,"text":"地方上的事情我們會來協助可能中間要牽扯到加壓站什麼的然後後期的維護管理我會協調各鄉鎮市公所來協助另外再一樣還是同樣水的問題就明德水庫這一座水庫一直負責苗栗市跟頭屋鄉的自來水供應每天大概供應1.8萬噸民生用水"},{"start":333.21,"end":342.621,"text":"大概有1.6萬戶居民使用但是近年來民人水庫的角色其實在改變了中生政策也非常明確要朝觀光休息使用來轉型"},{"start":344.076,"end":371.055,"text":"那像海棠島的這個發展水上的休息區還有環湖步道這個自行車步道有的在施工那未來還要結合在地的這個旅遊還有農業的灌溉那這樣的轉型其實我們都樂見因為其實它的水質本來就不好但是我也要考慮一個問題那民生用水怎麼辦現在是苗栗市跟投屋鄉的鄉親在使用這個水"},{"start":371.943,"end":388.3,"text":"那我知道我們鯉魚灘水庫在這個南水北宋工程在明年底會全數這個全線完成那有沒有可能有沒有可能這個時候如果它通水的時候給我們苗栗市跟投物鄉的這個鄉民來使用"},{"start":389.225,"end":414.75,"text":"經濟部有一個更長遠的一個構想跟計畫部長來答問我想那個民生水庫可能民生用水這個部分我們還是希望可以保留啦因為民生用水還是比較重要第二個就是說我們也知道說縣政府已經針對那個天花湖的部分已經有在對 天花湖水庫我們如果天花湖蓋好以後我想那個民生水庫轉型我們再重新調配可是那沒那麼快啊 對不對"},{"start":416.148,"end":423.533,"text":"這個如果其實這個如果接應該不難啦它管線就已經有了嘛大條管線都有啦南水北送其實難度應該不大"},{"start":425.3,"end":452.965,"text":"對 但是我們還是希望明德水棍還是我為什麼要這樣講就是我們每天我算過就是我們那個工程送上去每年每天大概可以供應20萬噸的用水那目前其實我們使用率加苗栗頭顧地區只有1.8萬公噸那在未來其實它還有很大的空間可以使用在短期之內主要是平常都沒有問題但是我們很怕"},{"start":453.365,"end":474.335,"text":"我們現階段只使用5.5萬噸再加上1.8其實還好極端氣候常常會有枯水或者是等等一些情況那這樣啦好不好當然啦就是說在平常在管線接嘛對不對那萬一真的有碰到這個時候我們還可以用明熱水庫的水仙來做這個應急嘛"},{"start":475.695,"end":489.729,"text":"不然這個部分我們在有一個規劃以後再跟委員報告一下看看怎麼樣的情況但是我們還是希望就是說民生水庫在短期之內民生用水的它功能或調配的功能還是有它的存在性"},{"start":490.183,"end":518.32,"text":"我知道我沒有叫你廢掉啦我沒有叫你廢掉只是說我為什麼要這樣講就是明德水庫現在是環境部列出全台高度優氧化的水而且這個水質早就被點名是最差等級了苗栗市民跟頭湖鄉的鄉親還在使用這個水苗栗水庫是水庫大縣會把它轉為比較是調度使用的這個在比較極端氣候的時候我想這個沒有理由讓我們繼續喝這個水吧"},{"start":519.116,"end":541.712,"text":"因為我沒有叫你現在說一定因為是你有南水北送所以我才提這個意見今天如果沒有那當然這個工程太大可是今天有這個管線我們回去再來協助好不好好的好的另外我們今天天花湖水庫2013年就通過平建如果更長期天花湖水庫蓋好大概就沒有問題了就整個可以"},{"start":542.492,"end":560.7,"text":"報告委員在明德水庫還在供應民生用水的時候我也要求經濟部跟台水確保這個明德水庫的水質是在我們一定可控安全的情況底下才能這樣做這個一定會達到我兩個都考慮一下啦好不好另外還有就是說我們天灣湖水庫213年就通過環評"},{"start":563.217,"end":566.32,"text":"主要還是地方政府如果說他的意見真的已經溝通好的話你們預算編了嗎 今年會編嗎 有編嗎"},{"start":588.525,"end":606.546,"text":"工程款還沒有變你還要徵收耶現在土地取得還有很多的評估我們再跟苗栗縣政府確定一下如果真的是沒有問題我記得開了三場的地方說明會啦已經開了三場啦所以地方上的聲音好像大家都不會像上次這樣"},{"start":607.327,"end":634.569,"text":"如果地方都贊成的話合力來開發如果合力來開發的話我們盡快蓋好之後是對我們整個科技產業的非常重要的一個環節然後我再請教就是我們副總統蕭美琴在接受加拿大媒體專訪說我們承諾在美國投資不只是台積電還有整個生態系都要過去就是從供應商到設計商甚至其他晶片製造公司"},{"start":635.109,"end":656.936,"text":"那我想請問這具整個生態系是不是意味著台灣未來不只台積電赴美連中油林組件還有我們上油材料IC設計甚至封窗測試業者都要過去事實上包委員台灣的這個在台灣的半導體的生態體系基本上我們的設備跟材料也是國外提供的"},{"start":658.154,"end":683.859,"text":"這是我們未來執政的方向嗎沒有 比如說來講美國硬材它本來就是在美國所以它在美國供應給台灣的台積電美國的台積電在當地的你們不擔心我們台灣的整個整個這個東西都掏空跑到美國去那我們台灣怎麼辦呢美國硬材它不用從台灣的公司搬東西去美國因為它美國本來它就是在我們的人才過不過去"},{"start":685.45,"end":710.866,"text":"人才來講的話 我們是第一批去如果他settle down以後 這些人才是要回來的我希望這樣子啦 還是要以台灣為主你們不要以為不要多把台灣整個最寶貴的東西拉到美國去那台灣到時候什麼都沒有我們怎麼跟下一代交代不會 不會 立足台灣好不好 那再問 就是說桃竹苗大矽谷推動計畫到底有沒有要做"},{"start":712.91,"end":726.355,"text":"理論上是在推動 怎麼推動你們在國內說要打造然後發展AI要留住產業 培養人才可是在國際場合又說要整個這個生態系要赴美陶鑄苗大細股是我們在六大產業生活區當中"},{"start":727.555,"end":746.554,"text":"速度跑最快的經濟部也在推動裡面的太空相關的產業衛福部也在推動關於生意的產業另外速發部跟經濟部也在推動深層式AI的應用產業這個都已經初步在規劃了現在就是還有包括竹南還有投奮跟厚隆三個科學園區"},{"start":747.555,"end":768.844,"text":"目前還要把他的這個土地用地等等還要做跟地方政府還要做一些溝通還要做一些努力包括他的都市計劃變更所以現在是以國發會來統籌是嗎報告委員其實那個桃豬苗大細股是要中央跟地方共同合作所以我們國發會成立一個桃豬苗大細股的"},{"start":770.224,"end":798.156,"text":"協調的這個平台那我們會根據地方的這些提案然後我們找到權責單位我們扮演溝通協調的角色這個方案基本上是在六大區域產業生活圈裡面當然我們中央跟地方一定會全力推動好 我當然看到你有這樣回答我是很高興因為我看不到你的施政重點裡面哪一頁 哪一條 哪一個項目有出現桃園 桃竹苗大溪谷計畫的這個六個字都沒有看到"},{"start":798.516,"end":822.212,"text":"六大區域產業生活圈裡面都有提到桃竹苗大細股那將來他還有很多包括剛剛你說的鯉魚潭這個是用水的配套還有交通的配套也有羊頭段的交通配套羊奶也會做另外銅鑼的一個設置再生能源的一個中心國科會也是在規劃當中這個都是很多的配套當中比較屬於重要的一部分所以有沒有針對這個計畫編對然後有沒有編對這個預算有沒有編列預算"},{"start":825.953,"end":845.331,"text":"我們在整個六大產業生活區當中我們編列了將近兩千九百億那些本來是外圍嘛對不對有沒有針對這個計畫來做沒有沒有看到啊我們可以另外提醒因為在審查預算的過程裡面如果有詳細的詢問未來在真的審查的時候這個中間有開過會嗎有開過幾次"},{"start":849.777,"end":868.385,"text":"幾次喔 很多次大大小小各種六大產業生活區我們都一直持續的開會那現在整個都已經核定了這個桃樹苗大溪谷是其中跑最快的速度最快的因為我知道這個其實鯉魚潭水庫包含鯉魚潭水庫沿管工程他是從民國九十幾年就規劃了"},{"start":869.588,"end":897.143,"text":"那國道也是啦國道也是111年才合訂的所以我認為這個大溪谷計畫這些周邊當然它都是有相關聯沒錯但是我要講的是說這個部分本來在還沒有大溪谷計畫之前就已經在計畫在做了我有希望更明確的就是說把這個大溪谷計畫放在我們的整個計畫裡面讓我們可以去做追蹤然後當然我們也希望能夠盡快看到一個成果"},{"start":898.904,"end":920.996,"text":"當然地方要配合我們會全力配合六大產業生活區他是一個產業生活的結合但為了要支撐這個我們有152項以上的地方建設其中都涵蓋剛剛委員講的這個都包含在內這個才能夠讓他的各種生活機能跟交通建設跟產業需求能夠符合他的要求才能夠趁著這個六大區域能夠同時發展"},{"start":921.636,"end":940.814,"text":"好 謝謝院長那我再挑過一個下一個問題就是我們苗栗縣有一個這個義捷公車停駛那前幾天發生了一件事情就是新竹客運在9月15日停駛苗栗縣公館路線公館還有大湖路線那然後"},{"start":941.995,"end":967.251,"text":"義捷科技公司接棒帶駛了12條客運線但是前幾天因為現在實在大環境很困難突然無預警的停駛當然我也謝謝我們交通部新竹區建立所有出面來做協調但這個問題還是存在我是希望說這個部分我們是不是有必要要檢討檢討我們中央補貼公車路線的"},{"start":972.711,"end":997.887,"text":"經費有沒有希望能夠往上調一點好 報告委員我們對於這個路線的補貼目前匡列了3580萬那目前的運作其實都還正常只不過這間公司確實它在財務的調度上面確實是有問題那我們現在有幾個預防的方式第一個就是說我們會介入跟了解它發薪水的整個金流的狀況如果有狀況我們會隨時預警這第一點"},{"start":998.507,"end":1013.044,"text":"第二點我們也會跟司機也就是駕駛員的這個群組大家來組一個群組如果駕駛有反映到這樣的問題我們會馬上出面來接手那第三個就是說如果真的有這種預警性的有可能會停駛的時候"},{"start":1013.424,"end":1030.271,"text":"我們有協調了金牌客運還有苗栗客運在它停止的時候有人可以接手那是目前我們處理的方式但根本溯源來講的話最重要是這個公司要能夠正常運作正常營運所以我們也會看它的營運的狀況23號有約 有召開協調會那幾部裡面再派人過來"},{"start":1034.179,"end":1060.297,"text":"另外其實我會講這個事情是五天前他停死那前兩天晚上我們突然看到他又公告又公告 自行公告又要停死當然我們馬上介入才沒有發生所以我想這個問題還是要因為我們牽扯到很多老人家年長者跟一些要上班族他們確實就只能靠公車來上下班所以這個還請部長這邊來多多協助這個我們會來注意 隨時注意謝謝"},{"start":1061.898,"end":1091.022,"text":"另外我再請教院長關於能源的部分我想確認一件事情我們賴行哲總統說2030年要投入9000億推動淨零轉型請問這跟蔡政府2022年推動的2050年淨零轉型行動方案是一樣的嗎當中有很多的關鍵的一些技術的建設以及六大部門的整個延續性的工作當然是階段性在進行的"},{"start":1091.898,"end":1116.615,"text":"對 我當然 政策當然要延續啦當然 偷換概念就不行啦你們這個政府的最大問題就是我又有時候聽不太清楚你們講什麼那既然錢都花了 計畫也不是新的那理論上賴總統對外應該要告訴大家做了什麼 成果在哪裡啊而不像現在這樣子 然後一開口動不動就要幾千億我們真的不知道這些錢要用在哪裡然後 面對氣候變遷 沒有人是舉外人啦我希望"},{"start":1118.629,"end":1143.931,"text":"不要把這個事情然後搞到變成每一個人都是受害的報告委員不會啦因為我們是講說這個投入投入的這個額度那比如說像離岸豐電來講的話事實上一個豐廠就要一千億的台幣所以就是說只要這個綠能產業我們持續的推動的話那會創造出還有電動車的推動就會產生出這樣的一個效果出來"},{"start":1144.779,"end":1155.182,"text":"我跟你講大概2023年全國排碳量是27800萬噸2024年排碳升到32100萬噸多了5000萬噸所以我們的政府花了那麼多錢在淨零碳排氣越來越高這個是不是有搞錯方向"},{"start":1169.825,"end":1187.732,"text":"報告委員那個碳排是明顯的下降2023年跟2005年相比減了4.64所以我們持續在往下走你往下 我要往後比啊你2024年為什麼高勒2024目前來看我們預期是往下降而且持續在往下走當中今年確定會比去年低"},{"start":1193.162,"end":1216.659,"text":"2023年的碳排2022年底你們說減碳有成那為什麼會比較高你說這個數據是你後面再拿給我好嗎我們其實在氣候變遷對策委員會裡面都有特別提到都有公布這個數字我就是抓那上面的資料所以看到他是提高的沒有明顯的從過去這幾年顯著的一個下降目前最新的一筆是2023年"},{"start":1219.749,"end":1247.003,"text":"審計部報告說的很清楚台電虧損的主要原因就是外購綠電支出暴增三年內從588億增加到1193億那今年台電購電價格風電每度是6.7光電5.3那這樣買電的話 院長這樣是不是會越來越虧那台電怎麼負擔得了初期的成本當然是要計算比較高一點那會它隨著它的賺收會越來越下降"},{"start":1248.744,"end":1270.723,"text":"對 現在的綠電他們已經大部分很多都不透過台電賣了因為他們的價錢比較好是自己供應給需求方他直接供應 線路用誰的線路還是用管電線還是用台電啊台電還是要負責維運還是要維護啊台電只是收那個過路費而已真正的價格 他有收過路費嗎對 有收"},{"start":1272.745,"end":1290.824,"text":"就是他看他的那個距離就是說應用的距離比如說來講某一家公司他買的是假設講台積電他去購買了一個風場然後他算他的距離過路費是多少他收這個但是實際的價格就變成是台積電跟這個風場他們自己去談"},{"start":1292.214,"end":1317.751,"text":"價錢他們自己去談所以我們都沒介入啊我們不會去干涉因為是民間的我看到我們光電的這個你們現在要推這個光儲這個結合的政策嘛對不對光儲結合那現在光電的收購制度有兩種第一種沒有儲能系統的這個台電這個購價大概是5.43元那第二種有儲能系統的是由能源署開標得標在"},{"start":1318.652,"end":1343.185,"text":"要求台電用保證收購價去跟業者購買這樣是嗎除能的就是說我們事實上是鼓勵這個發電業者他有除能設施啦那這樣的話可以讓這個那除能你跟除能店買多少錢呢如果是除能電廠除能電廠我們沒有跟他用我看到得標是最美度電是9.59元不是"},{"start":1346.365,"end":1357.827,"text":"委員可能講的是那個需求的時候那個時候是淨價的時候對 他們最高價是9.59元那個是需量淨價非常短的時間裡面緊急調度用那至於就是說我們現在是111年就飆了欸111年就飆了"},{"start":1374.757,"end":1394.635,"text":"這一家是哪一家公司你知道嗎就是我們雲豹能源北門光處合一廠 暗廠那是全台最早一批光處結合示範廠你們要推很快他們早就做好了就很巧他的子公司富仁資本在111年那一場競標標到了目前最高價是9.5多"},{"start":1395.817,"end":1410.329,"text":"我以這個比例來算如果以這個保證收費下去買電比一般光電是5.43元高出一倍台電自己發電成本高出三倍台電繼續虧損狀況之下我們還要再漲幾次電到時候把資料給我好不好"},{"start":1421.159,"end":1429.029,"text":"那個可能在序量競價在短時間內要緊急調度使用那絕不是長期的合約也把那個你們這個合約未來會簽約嗎假如說這種部分會簽約嗎"},{"start":1436.591,"end":1450.79,"text":"會跟廠商簽約嗎那一簽有沒有限定說一次一定多少年沒有我跟委員報告這個短縮價格基本上他是逐年下降所以不會出現說9塊多的這些狀況我是說你的合約呢合約會不會用綁約一綁10年20年合約"},{"start":1454.284,"end":1459.808,"text":"等於台電就是要虧20年跟委員報告 現在說老實話需要綠電的人越來越高了所以非常有可能會超過五塊六塊然後他們就會跟台電分手你會後再給我資料"},{"start":1474.199,"end":1487.855,"text":"謝謝另外院長我再請教關稅的問題就是我們現在掌握大家的訊息都停留在20%加N那個階段請問你的具體內容稅率範圍談判進度每次問都答不出來"},{"start":1489.918,"end":1503.624,"text":"川普宣布關稅之後我們看到你們對美方的加碼採購投資承諾一項接一項所以我想問的更直接一點這些加碼採購的投資是不是拿來跟川普政府交換條件"},{"start":1505.387,"end":1530.243,"text":"加碼採購跟投資採購是基於我國的各項需求我們去對外國政府做一些採購外國的民間做採購這個一方面國家的需求一方面我們財政的能力至於投資在主要的部分是產業自主性的投資比較多政府沒有辦法指揮產業你要去哪裡投資多少錢投資什麼產業但是產業如果有這種全球性的佈局"},{"start":1530.723,"end":1544.982,"text":"政府協助他來做一些行政以及金融保證的這個方面我們是可以做的所以我們在關稅上我們有跟美國這邊談的我們條件會比別人好嗎我們現在提出的就是台灣模式會長委員也聽過"},{"start":1547.305,"end":1572.847,"text":"產業自主去投資政府用金融支持來保證那雙方政府政府之間來談合作合作什麼產業聚落那這個產業聚落形成需要美方在很多資源土地跟行政作業上給我們協助那這個產業的聚落未來就形成一個園區來幫助雙方的業者共同的發展因為各位看到了我們也希望這個二等關稅的部分現在是暫時性的是20我們希望可以往下降"},{"start":1573.707,"end":1598.475,"text":"對 我不希望我希望你們是去談判的啦我希望我們的代表團是去談判的不是去美國接任務好嗎 可以嗎我們是美國去完成國家給他的任務不是去美國接任務是去美國接美國的任務啦不是不是 完成國家賦予他的任務我很擔心這樣子 把台灣都賣了我們會談得很好的第二回合好 那我再問喔產業對投資4000億美元正確嗎產業"},{"start":1603.934,"end":1628.216,"text":"對不起要對美投資4000億美元這件事現在雙方談到的技術性協商當中當然有很多的方案提出的想法但目前還沒有做哪一部分具體說當雙方 院長剛剛講說是我們業者自主那我看到郭智恆前部長說要再加碼2000億美元這是真的還假的"},{"start":1628.396,"end":1643.711,"text":"那看業者有沒有這種投資的計畫所以他是幫業者講話囉主要是業者他有這樣的意願有這樣的全球佈局的需求那我們來協助他所以我們當然也做過一些盤點來支持這樣的產業有這樣的佈局"},{"start":1647.577,"end":1669.789,"text":"另外還有我們農業部陳部長不是簽了要買100億美元的農產品嗎那不是農業部那是業者自己去的那我就很好奇就是說我們這四年要買超過100億美元的黃豆 玉米 小麥 牛肉比過去平均值真的25%那我們賴總統他在接見美國農業部"},{"start":1673.132,"end":1680.821,"text":"貿易及對外事業部次長林德伯格宣布了台灣業規劃未來四年採購100億的美國農產品是同一件事嗎"},{"start":1684.734,"end":1708.412,"text":"我跟委員報告這個114年100億美元的一個採購是由業者因為他們的平均的一個需求而去購買的這第一個第二個部分就是提高25%它的計算基準是113年比113年提高了25%但是以過去5年的平均的話大致上還是落在過去5年的一個購買的一個平均水準"},{"start":1708.852,"end":1714.517,"text":"因為我看到賴總統還強調說這是提升糧食安全的戰略合作"},{"start":1715.131,"end":1743.121,"text":"他有基於我們進口所需要的也有消費的習慣還有我們這個畜牧業所需要一些肥料之後那部長為什麼又說我又覺得很奇怪啊如果這是本來就有的部長為什麼又說這樣的承諾有助於台美關稅的談判如果只是業者生意為什麼要升高到戰略層級我一直很納悶這個事情我跟委員報告就是我們所採購的是我們國內自給率非常低的平均的自給率都在5%以下像大豆的話甚至於自給率只有0.02"},{"start":1744.582,"end":1763.43,"text":"那相對的台灣沒有生產但是需要特別是飼料用所以我們進口的中醫都是飼料用反而可以增加降低我們的農民的一個生產成本因為我看到就是平均一年進口量大概19億美金美元每一年那4年的話4年的話也不過到76億對吧那"},{"start":1769.873,"end":1784.741,"text":"你現在拉高到100億就差了25億美元這個差價會不會衝擊到我們的台灣本土的農業我想我剛才第一個強調的就是這些產品都是國內自給率非常低的"},{"start":1785.681,"end":1805.821,"text":"所以不會影響到國內產業這些產品進來以後因為當飼料可以降低飼料成本反而是對農民的生產是有利的第三個就是我剛才講的提高25%是用113年當作基準去計算的如果你是以過去的5年去平均的話他大致上還是在維持在4年大概100億左右"},{"start":1806.001,"end":1831.792,"text":"那我們有做這個融資貸款補貼或者保證收購嗎完全沒有都沒有是不是是那我希望這樣啦剩下10幾秒那我希望這個不要搞到我們台灣農民輸然後美國農民贏這樣好嗎不會啦我們自己產業還是要顧好國家利益產業利益為優先農民的安全農民的注意我們會列為優先的考量謝謝謝謝院長好 謝謝邱政經委"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":2,"blocks":[["邱委員鎮軍：（14時30分）老師好。院長好，我們有請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：我還是稱邱委員好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：院長好。我想請教一下，我們苗栗的自來水普及率只有87.6%，比全國平均95.5%低了快8%，那我們蔡英文政府在2017年，也就是在自來水普及率93.1%的時候明確定下目標，就是希望2024年能夠達到95%，那KPI設得很清楚，所以從106年到110年，全國普及率升了1.2%，那平均一年成長0.3%，蔡政府這個95%的目標4年就達成了。那我想請問一下，我們賴清德政府有定下這個目標嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們未來有5年計畫，用200億，5年的計畫200億，希望把我們的自來水……"],["邱委員鎮軍：那有沒有算過多少個百分點，要提升多少？"],["卓院長榮泰：好像不到10個百分點。"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，因為苗栗山區比較多，偏遠地區比較多，所以施作上會稍微困難，但是我們會加大力道，新的第五期本來就會加強比較偏遠地區它的額度。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我幫你這個粗算了一下……"],["卓院長榮泰：苗栗會從80%，未來5年，如果我們投入將近18億……"],["邱委員鎮軍：苗栗縣其實有7……"],["卓院長榮泰：80%升高到87%。"],["邱委員鎮軍：有大概7個鄉鎮的自來水普及率低於70%，那有2個鄉鎮，其實就是我們部長講的，就是獅潭跟泰安，獅潭只有3.39%，泰安只有2.27%，那當然是因為它是山區，所以這個部分當然我不能這樣拿來比較。我大概算了一下，6萬戶，每戶大概2.4人，大概14.4萬人，全國人口數總共是2,430萬，從普及率95.81%算起，就算是全部接上，5年最多只能變成96.4%，那5年有200億，大概是提升0.6%到0.8%左右。審計部資料說，按照現在的速度，要248年大家才有自來水可以用，你們沒有一個具體的目標嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，因為在比較偏遠……但是我們這個200億裡面的確有它的分配，比如說原住民地區，它就會分配有一定的額度，不會說這個金額會被其他的挪用走，這是第一個。第二個，如果要完全的接自來水管的話，有時候會有它的困難，那個時間也會拉長……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我知道。"],["龔部長明鑫：但是我們會趕快用……至少簡易自來水可以，還是可以喝到乾淨的水。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我知道卓院長上任之後，去年我們整個有調過，本來是每戶60萬，提高到80萬，那水庫周邊變100萬，這個我謝謝院長……"],["龔部長明鑫：這個是金額增加了。"],["邱委員鎮軍：但是我發現這樣速度還是很慢，而且我看那數據非常奇怪，就是提升自來水普及率，照理來說應該要越來越高，可是數據非常奇怪，我們賴總統上任之後，自來水普及率不增反減，這是什麼原因？從113年的6月95.81%起，114年的6月剩下95.55%，為什麼會這樣？這是你們給我的數據。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們是持續在增加，所以越到後端它的速度會越慢，因為施工……"],["邱委員鎮軍：普及率為什麼會減少呢？照理說是人口成長才會減少，我們分母也沒變大啊，為什麼這個數字是變小的呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個數字我們再查證一下。"],["龔部長明鑫：我再查證一下，再向委員……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我猜可能是統計不一樣啦，就是你們統計的方式不一樣。"],["龔部長明鑫：統計的基礎可能會有落差。"],["邱委員鎮軍：還是你們換了計算的方式？"],["龔部長明鑫：但是苗栗的這個是以一定的基準，就像您剛才提到的，從80現在變成87嘛，我們會持續地往上……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我希望是這樣啦，有一些地方是山區，說實在地要把這個管線完全牽完成確實不容易，而且成本非常大。"],["龔部長明鑫：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：但是有一些人口密集的這個部分，還請行政院這邊多多幫忙。"],["龔部長明鑫：是，所以剛剛委員也特別提到了，我們把比較偏遠地方的那個金額的最上限調高了，那就……"],["邱委員鎮軍：對、對、對。"],["龔部長明鑫：至少可以把它……"],["邱委員鎮軍：地方上的事情我們會來協助啦！可能中間會牽扯到加壓站什麼的。"],["龔部長明鑫：是、是、是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：至於後期的維護管理，我會協調各鄉鎮市公所來協助，好不好？"],["龔部長明鑫：好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：另外同樣是水的問題，這座明德水庫一直負責苗栗市跟頭屋鄉的自來水供應，每天大概供應1.8萬噸的民生用水。"],["龔部長明鑫：是、是、是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：大概有1.6萬戶居民在使用，但是近年來明德水庫的角色其實在改變，中央的政策也非常明確，要朝觀光休憩的使用來轉型。像海棠島要發展水上休憩區，還有環湖步道、自行車步道也都在施工，未來還要結合在地的旅遊和農業的灌溉，這樣的轉型其實我們都樂見，因為它的水質本來就不好。","但我也同樣要考慮一個問題，民生用水怎麼辦？現在是苗栗市跟頭屋鄉的鄉親在使用這個水，我知道我們鯉魚潭水庫的南水北送工程到明年底會全數、全線完成。"],["龔部長明鑫：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：有沒有可能到它通水的時候給我們苗栗市跟頭屋鄉的鄉民來使用？"],["卓院長榮泰：經濟部有一個更長遠的構想跟計畫，就有請部長來答復。"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，我想明德水庫民生用水的這個部分我們還是希望可以保留啦，因為民生用水還是比較重要的，這是第一個。第二個就是，因為我們也知道縣政府已經針對天花湖的部分有在……"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，天花湖水庫我們……"],["龔部長明鑫：天花湖水庫蓋好以後，明德水庫的轉型，我們再重新調配就沒有問題。"],["邱委員鎮軍：可是那沒那麼快啊，對不對？如果……其實這個應該不難，它管線就已經有了嘛！大條管線都有了啊！南水北送其實難度應該不大。"],["龔部長明鑫：對，但是我們還是希望明德水庫還是有……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我為什麼要這樣講？我算過，工程送上去每天大概可以供應20萬噸的用水，目前我們的使用率（加上苗栗、頭屋地區）只有1.8萬公噸，未來其實它還有很大的空間可以使用，在短期之內……"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，主要是平常都沒有問題啦，但是我們很怕……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我們現階段只使用5.5萬噸，再加上1.8萬噸，其實還好耶！"],["龔部長明鑫：因為現在的極端氣候常常會有枯水等等的一些情況，需要調……"],["邱委員鎮軍：這樣好不好，在平常……你管線有接嘛，對不對？萬一真的碰到這個的時候，我們還可以用明德水庫的水先來應急嘛！"],["龔部長明鑫：不然這個部分等我們有一個規劃以後，再跟委員報告一下，看看是怎麼樣的情況，但是我們還是希望，這個明德水庫在短期之內，民生用水的功能或調配的功能還是有它的存在性。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我知道，我沒有叫你廢掉啦，只是我為什麼要這樣講？明德水庫現在有環境部列出全臺高度優氧化的水，而且這個水質早就被點名是最差的等級了。苗栗市民跟頭屋鄉的鄉親還在使用這個水，但苗栗可是水庫大縣耶……"],["龔部長明鑫：是，所以我們會把它轉為，比較是作為調度使用的……"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啊，那個請……"],["龔部長明鑫：在比較像極端氣候的時候……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我想也沒有理由讓我們繼續喝這個水吧？我沒有叫你現在一定……"],["龔部長明鑫：鯉魚潭的部分蓋好以後……"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為你有南水北送，所以我才提這個意見，今天如果沒有……當然這個工程太大，可是今天有這個管線，你們回去再來協助，好不好？"],["龔部長明鑫：好的、好的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：另外，天花湖水庫在2013年就通過評鑑。"],["龔部長明鑫：對，如果是更長期的，天花湖水庫蓋好以後大概就沒有問題了，就整個可以……"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，我想……"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，在明德水庫還在供應民生用水的時候，我也要求經濟部和台水確保明德水庫的水質是在我們一定可控安全的情況底下，才能這樣做，這個一定會達到要求。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，謝謝，兩個都考慮一下，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：另外，天花湖水庫2013年就通過環評，地方意見分歧了12年……"],["龔部長明鑫：對，主要是地方的意見。"],["邱委員鎮軍：現在鍾縣長上任之後，大家有在協調，地方上也有在溝通，大致上，大概是沒什麼大問題，我想請問一下，現在進度在哪裡？你們預算編列了沒？"],["龔部長明鑫：主要還是地方政府，如果他的意見真的已經溝通好的話，對中央……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們預算編了嗎？今年會編嗎？有編嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：今年的預算……"],["卓院長榮泰：工程的預算還沒有編。"],["龔部長明鑫：工程款還沒有……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你還要徵收，對不對？"],["龔部長明鑫：對呀！對呀！"],["卓院長榮泰：對、對，像土地取得，還有很多的評估要做。"],["龔部長明鑫：我們再跟苗栗縣政府確定一下，如果真的是沒有問題，我們……"],["邱委員鎮軍：已經說了，我記得開了三場的地方說明會了，已經開了三場了……"],["龔部長明鑫：是、是、是，了解。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以地方上的聲音不會像上次這樣啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：如果地方都贊成的話……"],["龔部長明鑫：縣政府有跟我們這樣表達……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我想這個很重要……"],["卓院長榮泰：合力來開發的話，我們儘快來處理這個事情……"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為天花湖水庫蓋好之後，對我們整個科技產業是非常重要的一個環節……"],["龔部長明鑫：對，沒有錯，是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我再請教，副總統蕭美琴在接受加拿大媒體專訪說，我們已承諾在美國投資，不只是台積電，還有整個生態系都要過去，就是從供應商到設計商，甚至其他晶片製造公司。我想請問這句「整個生態系」是不是意味著臺灣未來不只台積電赴美，連中游零組件，還有上游材料、IC設計，甚至封裝測試業者，都要過去？"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，事實上，在臺灣的半導體生態體系，基本上，我們的設備和材料也是國外提供的，他們也是來臺灣……"],["邱委員鎮軍：這是我們未來執政的方向嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：沒有、沒有，比如美國應材本來就是在美國，所以他在美國供應給在美國當地的台積電，事實上，也是一個生態體系……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們不擔心臺灣的這整個東西都掏空，跑到美國去，那臺灣怎麼辦呢？"],["龔部長明鑫：沒有、沒有、沒有，美國應材不用從臺灣的公司搬東西去美國，因為他本來就是在美國的公司……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我們的科技人才過不過去？"],["龔部長明鑫：人才來講的話，我們是第一批去，如果他settle down以後，這些人才是要回來的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我希望還是要以臺灣為主……"],["龔部長明鑫：當然、當然，立足臺灣。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們不要把臺灣這整個最寶貴的東西都拉到美國去，那臺灣到時候什麼都沒有，我們怎麼跟下一代交代？好不好？"],["龔部長明鑫：不會、不會，立足臺灣，立足臺灣第一。"],["邱委員鎮軍：再問，桃竹苗大矽谷推動計畫到底有沒有要做？"],["龔部長明鑫：理論上，是在推動，不過這個應該是國發會負責的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：怎麼推動？你們在國內說要打造，要發展AI、要留住產業、培養人才，可是在國際場合又說這整個生態系要赴美。"],["卓院長榮泰：桃竹苗大矽谷是我們在六大產業生活圈當中速度跑最快的，經濟部也在推動裡面的太空相關產業，衛福部也在推動關於生醫的產業，另外，數發部和經濟部也在推動生成式AI的應用產業，這個都已經初步在規劃了。現在包括竹南，還有頭份和後龍，三個科學園區，目前他們的土地用地等等還要跟地方政府一併做溝通，還要做一些努力，包括都市計畫變更以及可行性評估，這個都要做。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以現在這是由國發會來統籌，是嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：對，報告委員，其實桃竹苗大矽谷是要中央與地方共同合作，所以國發會成立一個桃竹苗大矽谷的協調平臺，我們會根據地方的這些提案找到權責單位，我們扮演溝通協調的角色，基本上，這個方案是在六大區域產業生活圈裡面，當然中央與地方一定會全力推動。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，當然我看到你有這樣的回答是很高興，但是我看不到你的施政重點裡面哪一頁、哪一條、哪一個項目有出現桃竹苗大矽谷計畫這六個字？都沒有看到。"],["卓院長榮泰：有，我們在六大區域產業生活圈裡面都有提到桃竹苗大矽谷，將來還有很多，包括剛剛你說的鯉魚潭，這個是用水的配套，還有交通的配套，楊頭段的交通配配套將來也會做，另外，在銅鑼設置再生能源中心，國科會也正在規劃當中，這個都是很多配套當中屬於比較重要的部分。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以有沒有針對這個計畫編列預算？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們在整個六大產業生活圈當中編列了將近2,900億的預算……"],["邱委員鎮軍：那些本來算是外圍，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：有整合起來。"],["邱委員鎮軍：有沒有針對這個計畫來做編……"],["卓院長榮泰：有、有、有。"],["邱委員鎮軍：沒有看到啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們可以另外提供詳細的，在審查預算的過程裡面如果委員有詳細的詢問，未來在真的審查的時候就會得到更詳細的計畫。"],["邱委員鎮軍：這中間有開過會嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：有。"],["邱委員鎮軍：有開過幾次？"],["卓院長榮泰：很多次，大大小小各種都有，六大產業生活區我們都一直持續的開會，現在整個都已經核定了，桃竹苗大矽谷是其中跑最快的、速度最快的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為我知道，包含鯉魚潭水庫延管工程，它是從民國九十幾年就規劃了，國道也是111年才核定的，所以我認為這個大矽谷計畫與周邊當然都有相關聯，沒錯，但是我要講的是，這個部分本來在還沒有大矽谷計畫之前就已經有計畫在做了，我希望能更明確的把大矽谷計畫放在我們整個計畫裡面，讓我們可以追蹤，我們也希望能夠儘快看到一個成果，當然，地方要配合的我們會全力配合。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，這個六大產業生活區是產業與生活的結合，為了要支撐這個，我們有152項以上的地方建設，涵蓋剛剛委員講的，那些都包含在內，如此才能夠讓周邊的各種生活機能跟交通建設跟產業需求符合它的要求，才能夠襯托六大區域同時發展。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，謝謝院長。","下一個問題是關於我們苗栗縣亦捷公車停駛，前幾天發生了一件事情，就是新竹客運在9月15日停駛苗栗縣公館與大湖路線，由亦捷科技公司接棒代駛12條客運線，但是現在大環境實在很困難，前幾天突然無預警停駛，當然我也謝謝交通部新竹區監理所有出面來做協調，但這個問題還是存在。這個部分我們是不是有必要要檢討中央補貼公車路線的經費？有沒有希望能夠往上調一點？"],["卓院長榮泰：這部分請陳部長說明。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們對於路線的補貼目前匡列了3,580萬，目前的運作其實都還正常，只不過這間公司在財務的調度上面確實是有問題，那我們現在有幾個預防的方式，第一個，我們會介入跟了解它發薪水的整體金流狀況，如果有狀況我們會隨時預警，這是第一點。第二點，我們也會跟司機，也就是駕駛員，大家來組一個群組，如果駕駛有反映到這樣的問題，我們會馬上出面接手。第三個，如果真的有這種預警性有可能會停駛的時候，我們有協調了金牌客運和苗栗客運，在它停駛的時候有人可以接手，這是目前我們處理的方式。但根本溯源來講的話，最重要的是這個公司要能夠正常運作、正常營運，所以我們也會看它營運的狀況。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我23號有召開協調會，請部裡面再派人過來。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：其實我會講這個事情的原因是，五天前它停駛，前兩天晚上我們突然看到它又自行公告又要停駛，因為我們馬上介入才沒有發生。"],["陳部長世凱：是，我會找業者來接手。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以我想這個問題還是要解決，因為牽扯到很多老人家、年長者跟一些上班族，他們確實就只能靠那個公車上下班，所以這個還請部長多多協助。"],["陳部長世凱：好，這個我們會隨時注意。"],["邱委員鎮軍：謝謝。另外，我再請教院長，關於能源的部分我想確認一件事情，賴清德總統說2030年要投入9,000億推動淨零轉型，請問這跟蔡政府2020年推動的2050年淨零轉型行動方案是一樣的嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：當中有很多關鍵的基礎建設以及六大部門整個延續性的工作，當然是階段性在進行的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：政策當然要延續啦！但偷換概念就不行，你們這個政府的最大問題就是，有時候聽不太清楚你們講什麼，既然錢都花了，計畫也不是新的，理論上賴總統對外應該告訴大家做了什麼、成果在哪裡，而不是像現在這樣子，一開口動不動就要幾千億，我們真的不知道這些錢要用在哪裡。面對氣候變遷沒有人是局外人，我希望這個事情不要搞到變成每一個人都是受害的。"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，不會啦！因為我們是講投入的額度，比如說以離岸風電來講的話，事實上一個風場就要1,000億臺幣，所以只要我們持續推動綠能產業和電動車的話，就會產生出這樣的效果。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我跟你講，2023年全國排碳量大概是2萬7,800萬噸，2024年排碳量升到3萬2,100萬噸，多了5,000萬噸，所以我們的政府花了那麼多錢在淨零，碳排卻越來越高，這個是不是有搞錯方向？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，碳排是明顯的下降，2023年跟2005年相比，減了4.64，所以我們是持續在往下走。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你說往下，但我要往後比，2024年為什麼高呢？"],["彭部長啓明：目前來看，我們預期2024年是往下降，而且持續在往下走當中。"],["龔部長明鑫：今年確定會比去年低。"],["邱委員鎮軍：今年確定會比較低？"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：2023年的碳排，2022年底你們說減碳有成，但為什麼會比較高？這個數據，你後面再拿給我好嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：好，我們其實在氣候變遷對策委員會裡面都有特別提到，都有公布這個數字。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我就是抓那上面的資料啊！所以看到它是提高的。"],["彭部長啓明：沒有、沒有，過去這幾年有顯著的下降，目前最新的一筆是2023年。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好。審計部報告說得很清楚，台電虧損的主要原因就是外購綠電支出暴增，三年內從588億增加到1,193億。今年台電購電價格，風電每度是6.7，光電是5.3，院長，這樣買電是不是會越來越虧，台電怎麼負擔得了呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：初期的成本當然是要計算比較高一點，但會隨著它的躉售越來越下降。"],["龔部長明鑫：對，現在的綠電很多都不透過台電賣了，因為他們的價錢比較好，是自己供應給需求方。"],["邱委員鎮軍：它直接供應，那線路用誰的？"],["龔部長明鑫：像現在很多……"],["邱委員鎮軍：線路方面，管、電線還是用台電的啊！台電還是要負責維護啊！"],["龔部長明鑫：台電只是收過路費而已，真正的價格是……"],["邱委員鎮軍：它有收過路費嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：對，有收。"],["邱委員鎮軍：怎麼收？"],["龔部長明鑫：就是看它應用的距離，比如說某一家公司買的是……假設台積電去購買了一個風場，然後它算它的距離，過路費是多少，它是收這個，但是實際的價格就變成是台積電跟這個風場他們自己去談。"],["邱委員鎮軍：價錢他們自己去談，所以我們都沒介入嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：我們不會去干涉，因為是民間的，變成是他們民間……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我看到你們現在要推光儲結合的政策，對不對？"],["龔部長明鑫：對，儲電。"],["邱委員鎮軍：現在光電的收購制度有兩種，第一種沒有儲能系統的台電購價大概是5.43元，第二種有儲能系統的是由能源署開標，得標後再要求台電用保證收購價去跟業者購買，是這樣嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：是這樣，我們事實上是鼓勵發電業者有儲能設施，這樣可以讓……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你跟儲能電廠買多少錢呢？如果是儲能電廠。"],["龔部長明鑫：儲能電廠，我們沒有跟它用這個價錢去買……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我只看到得標是每度電9.59元。"],["龔部長明鑫：不是，委員可能講的是需求的時候，那個時候是競價的時候，就是比較……"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啊，他們最高價是9.59元。"],["龔部長明鑫：那個是需量競價，非常短的時間裡面……"],["卓院長榮泰：緊急調度用的。"],["龔部長明鑫：對，緊急調度用。至於我們現在是買了那個空間……"],["邱委員鎮軍：111年就標了耶！111年就標了，對不對？"],["龔部長明鑫：這個我再check一下……"],["邱委員鎮軍：這是哪一家公司，你知道嗎？就是雲豹能源北門光儲合一場案場，那是全臺最早一批光儲結合示範場，你們要推，他們早就做好了，就很巧，他的子公司恩富資本在111年那一場競標，標到了目前最高價一度是9.59元，我以這個比例來算，如果這個保證是為了要去買電……"],["龔部長明鑫：因為我們躉售價格……"],["邱委員鎮軍：比一般光電的5.43元高出一倍，比台電自己發電成本高出三倍，在台電繼續虧損的狀況之下，我們還要再漲幾次電？"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，我們躉售價格沒有這樣的價格。"],["卓院長榮泰：不可能達到現在所謂九點多元……"],["邱委員鎮軍：那你到時候把資料給我好不好？"],["龔部長明鑫：好，我再……"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛部長也說了，那個可能是需量競價，就是在短時間內就要緊急調度使用，那絕不是長期的合約。"],["龔部長明鑫：是，我再瞭解一下。"],["邱委員鎮軍：也把你們合約……"],["龔部長明鑫：因為現在的躉售價格事實上是逐漸下降。"],["邱委員鎮軍：未來會簽約嗎？假如說這種部分，會跟廠商簽約嗎？一簽有沒有限定一次一定要多少年？"],["龔部長明鑫：沒有，我跟委員報告，躉售價格基本上是逐年下降，所以不會出現九塊多的這些狀況。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我是說你的合約，合約會不會用綁約，一綁10年、20年？"],["龔部長明鑫：躉售價格是20年，沒有錯，如果是躉售價格，是四塊多、五塊多……"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啊！等於台電就是要虧20年，你簽一個約，台電……"],["龔部長明鑫：說老實話，現在需要綠電的人越來越多了，所以非常有可能會超過五塊、六塊，然後他們就會跟台電分手，他們會用他們自己的方法。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，你會後再給我資料，好不好？"],["龔部長明鑫：好的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：謝謝。","另外，我再請教院長關稅的問題，據我們現在的掌握，大家的訊息都停留在20%+N那個階段，請問你具體內容、稅率範圍、談判進度，每次都答不出來。川普宣布關稅之後，我們看到的卻是你們對美方的加碼採購、投資承諾一項接一項，所以我想問的更直接一點，這些加碼採購、投資是不是拿來跟川普政府交換條件？"],["卓院長榮泰：加碼採購跟投資？"],["邱委員鎮軍：對。"],["卓院長榮泰：採購是基於我國的各項需求，我們對外國政府做一些採購、外國的民間做任何的採購，一方面是國家的需求，一方面則是我們的財政能力。至於投資，主要的部分是產業自主性的投資比較多，政府沒有辦法指揮產業要去哪裡、投資多少錢、投資什麼產業，但是產業如果有全球性的布局，協助他來做一些行政以及金融保證等方面，政府是可以做的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以我們在關稅上跟美國談的條件會比別人好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在提出的就是臺灣模式，我想委員也聽過，就是產業自主投資，政府用金融支持來保證，雙方政府、政府之間來談合作，合作什麼？產業聚落。產業聚落的形成需要美方在很多資源、土地跟行政作業上給我們協助，產業聚落未來就形成一個園區，幫助雙方業者共同發展。"],["龔部長明鑫：另外，跟委員報告，關於對等關稅的部分，現在是暫時性的20%，我們希望可以往下降。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我希望你們是去談判的……"],["龔部長明鑫：對，會往下降。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我希望我們的代表團是去談判的，不是去美國接任務，好嗎？可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們是去美國完成國家給的任務，不是去美國接任務，是完成國家的任務。"],["邱委員鎮軍：去美國接美國的任務？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是、不是！"],["邱委員鎮軍：我很擔心是這樣，把臺灣都賣了！"],["龔部長明鑫：我們會談很好的deal回來。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我再問，產業對美投資4,000億美元，正確嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：產業？對不起！再說……"],["邱委員鎮軍：要對美投資4,000億美元這件事，金額對嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：現在雙方談到的技術性協商當中，當然有提出很多的方案、想法，但目前還沒有哪一部分雙方已經具體互相承諾。"],["邱委員鎮軍：院長剛剛說是業者自主……"],["龔部長明鑫：對，我們有初步盤點。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我看到郭智輝前部長說要再加碼2,000億美元，這是真的還假的？"],["卓院長榮泰：那要看業者有沒有這種投資的計畫跟他的能量。"],["龔部長明鑫：對，我們要……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以他是幫業者講話囉？"],["龔部長明鑫：主要是業者有這樣的意願、有這樣全球布局的需求，我們會來協助他。我們當然也做過一些盤點來支持產業有這樣的布局，但是……"],["邱委員鎮軍：另外，農業部陳部長不是簽了要買100億美元的農產品嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：那不是農業部，那是民間業者。"],["邱委員鎮軍：又是業者自己去的嘛？"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我就很好奇，我們這四年要買超過100億美元的黃豆、玉米、小麥、牛肉，比過去平均值增加25%。賴總統在接見美國農業部貿易及對外事業部次長林德伯格時，宣布了臺灣規劃未來四年採購100億美國農產品，是同一件事嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：四年100億美元的採購是由業者因為平均需求而購買的，這是第一個。第二個就是提高25%的計算基準是113年，比113年提高了25%，但是以過去五年平均來看，大致上還是落在過去五年購買的平均水準。"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為我看到賴總統還強調，這是提升糧食安全的戰略合作。"],["卓院長榮泰：它有基於我們進口所需要的，也有消費的習慣，還有畜牧業所需要一些肥料的來源。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我會覺得很奇怪，如果這是本來就有的，部長為什麼又說，這樣的承諾有助於臺美關稅的談判？如果只是業者的生意，為什麼要升高到戰略層級？這件事情讓我一直很納悶。"],["陳部長駿季：我們所採購的是我們國內自給率非常低的、平均自給率都在5%以下的，像大豆的話，甚至於自給率只有0.02，相對的，臺灣沒有生產但是需要，特別是飼料用，所以我們進口的東西都是飼料用，反而可以降低我們農民的生產成本。"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為我看到平均一年進口量大概19億美元，每一年喔，四年的話也不過到76億，對吧？現在你拉高到100億，就差了25億美元，這個差價會不會衝擊到我們臺灣本土的農業？"],["陳部長駿季：我剛才第一個強調的就是這些產品都是國內自給率非常低的，所以不會影響到國內產業，這些產品進來以後因為當飼料可以降低飼料成本，反而對農民的生產是有利的。第三個，就是我剛才講的，提高25%是用113年當作基準去計算的，如果你是以過去五年去平均的話，大致上還是維持在四年大概100億左右。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我們有做融資貸款補貼或者保證收購嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：完全沒有。"],["邱委員鎮軍：都沒有是嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我希望不要搞到我們臺灣農民輸，然後美國農民贏，這樣好嗎？我們自己產業還是要顧好。"],["龔部長明鑫：不會啦！因為……"],["卓院長榮泰：以國家利益、產業利益為優先。"],["邱委員鎮軍：謝謝院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：農民的安全、農民的助益，我們會列為優先的考量。"],["邱委員鎮軍：謝謝、謝謝院長。"],["主席：好，謝謝邱鎮軍委員質詢，謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長備詢，謝謝。","報告院會，現在在議場二樓旁聽又來了兩批好朋友們，第一批是馬偕醫護管理學校所有的同學，未來的白衣天使，我們掌聲歡迎。第二批在議場二樓旁聽的是來自美麗又辛苦的花蓮縣所有的婦女朋友們，我們掌聲歡迎。","接下來，我們請吳沛憶委員質詢，馬文君委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"院會-11-4-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","蔡其昌","洪孟楷","陳素月","王育敏","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","蘇清泉","張宏陸","邱鎮軍","吳沛憶","馬文君","廖偉翔","林月琴","游顥"],"page_start":373,"meetingDate":["2025-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1148002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148002_00006","1148002_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1148002_00005"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}