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根據您的報告114年度的統籌分配稅款的規模是4676億那你有沒有估算過到了年底實際上會是多少因為這是預估數 這個不是實際數"},{"start":35.767,"end":57.109,"text":"這個是按照通知分配數嘛對啊 但是以前歷年每一年到了年底的時候有剩餘的時候還會再一波嘛對對對好 那以113年來講113年你的預估數是多少我113年了統籌分配數因為113年已經結束了114年現在到10月就還有兩個多月嘛對所以你今年"},{"start":58.362,"end":72.657,"text":"估算數是4676我認為會高於4676有可能不是有可能是一定會所以我拿113年來跟你檢討你113年的數字是多少113年的數字你現在趕快提供給次長113"},{"start":78.688,"end":89.317,"text":"45394539是預估數嗎那實際數是多少 實際分配的數字4539那原來的預估數是多少原來原來預估數是這樣 我是不是待會再他們找到以後再來補充我就是要跟你講說其實你這個預估數是失真啦你這個預估數"},{"start":105.942,"end":114.864,"text":"規模少太多了像舉個例子你的報告裡面講說114年度476億元到了115年會增加到8841億所以會增加4165億不止啦因為台灣的GDP像剛剛主席長講的今年可能會增加5%那光這5%的消費稅整個國內的消費規模會增加多少"},{"start":133.047,"end":151.426,"text":"那增加多少裡面5%的這個消費稅收會增加多少所以你這個都比原來實際要發生的數字都保守就是說如果他稅收如果繼續比那個就是比預算稅增加的話那當然出去的金額就大了今天的媒體報導我看到說昨天的媒體報導說"},{"start":154.368,"end":170.176,"text":"9月的這個電子產品包括AI的這個訂單是900多億美金創歷史紀錄那以前的歷史紀錄就700多億而已一口氣拉高了100多億美金這個GDP規模當然我知道你現在是"},{"start":170.876,"end":185.572,"text":"就兩塊嘛M型傳產的部分因為被中國這種政府補貼然後這個沒有沒有照民主國沒有照自由世界的這個經濟方式在運作所以傳產的部分都被中國捲得很厲害全世界都一致"},{"start":187.505,"end":208.444,"text":"有的人就是不會去怪中國他就是怪自己的政府不管他是從哪個觀點來看但是我們在電子跟AI這部分不得了現在全世界成長最快的就是美國跟台灣所以GDP顯然會增加很多所以這個我想委員都很清楚不然講113年"},{"start":211.792,"end":218.653,"text":"後來第二波再播給地方政府的有多少第二波的 就是到年底年底的時候再播的"},{"start":225.339,"end":245.985,"text":"465億啦那就是比你餘估數要多的東西嘛因為只要是時增數超過預算數的話就會有額外在撥的問題啦那因為你們的預算的收入你們把那預算的收入我講了非常多遍你們都估得很保守所以讓每一次時收數都高過預算數很多那就引起很多政治上無謂的紛擾"},{"start":247.285,"end":269.83,"text":"所以我了解那過去這幾年的確是有這種情況不只這幾年今年也一樣今年我跟委員報告今年到目前實收數會比較少的原因是因為你因應關稅所以讓那個他可以延緩繳稅嘛然後可以那個以前的預估稅也不收了是因為這樣子所以你們這個預算的實行數才稍微落後啊"},{"start":271.211,"end":283.571,"text":"最主要他是同意他分期或者是延期繳納那一塊再補回來你們還是超過預算數這個要看到年底到目前為止不然我們來打賭 你敢不敢"},{"start":285.192,"end":301.289,"text":"這個東西真的是很難因為十月十一月不然我們來打賭啊誰輸誰吃掉我想這不是打賭明明就看得到的東西讓你們財政部每次的估算都要算得這麼保守"},{"start":302.23,"end":328.869,"text":"我不知道這個意義在哪裡你們意義說我們的徵收稅數我都已經達到百分之百所以我們的表現很好我在這邊講過非常多次了就算你們的稅收收不到百分之百稅到百分之九十八百分之九十九有誰會怪你們呢因為那是一個預估數啊那你們就寧願把它估得非常的保守然後讓實徵數來超過預算數很多就讓人家講說你看人家還稅於民還稅於民是個假議題嘛"},{"start":330.39,"end":356.224,"text":"全民都拿到又不是繳稅人拿到那還稅給誰啊你如果要還稅於民真正的定義誰繳還給誰對不對那不是嘛就是隨便扣一個帽子就亂講那就是因為始作俑者的原因就是我講的你們的估計都真的估得太保守你看113年度最後一波額外撥補400多億給地方政府"},{"start":357.096,"end":385.801,"text":"我相信今年114年一樣甚至還超過400多億這個數字因為今年比較特別因為還有台美關稅的問題台美關稅的問題所以現在還很難預料總統昨天已經跟你講好消息了台美關稅第一會比現在的再降第二不疊加第三關於電子產品那一部分還有更好的條件是"},{"start":387.006,"end":413.909,"text":"你現在講這個是跟總統昨天講的是你是打他的臉是不是也不是啦其實我是覺得像其實政府的努力要讓全民知道這麼努力在做然後被你看前面的資訊幫你們講的不一無是處所以我跟委員報告所以我們過去我也跟委員報告過就是說我們現在成立這個這個就是有關預算估測的小組其實他也發揮一定的功能就比如說像今年來講"},{"start":414.89,"end":423.456,"text":"我覺得會不會到委員講的400多億這個其實還在未定之天但是基本上我們已經朝一定會超過4676億這一點肯定吧我剛剛跟你講的是一定會超過4676億不會不會不會"},{"start":432.181,"end":458.473,"text":"這個目前的估測以我們目前的相關單位的估測今年是相對保守啦相對保守啦也就是說到目前為止啦就中央來講是大概減了比去年同期的話大概減了1.7%所以呢到這個下個月我就剛剛跟你講了你會少1.7的原因是你同意讓人家延緩還有分期啊你如果沒有這個東西的話你現在是超過這個90"},{"start":459.733,"end":482.724,"text":"超過這個一點多啊沒有錯但是他既然准他延期或分期以後我今年就不能用了嘛是啦那所以是因為你的政策同意讓他延緩繳稅嘛那我要如果這樣的話我如果可以這樣調整的話那我都故意啊我讓你今年要繳的稅明年再繳那我當然我今年就達不到啦但是我們現在就是算實際數因為主計跟財政這兩個單位對於這個數字"},{"start":487.165,"end":506.074,"text":"我個人是認為一定要精確不然在施政上會發生很多的扭曲謝謝委員指教這一部分我們真的在努力希望能夠將來再估算得更精準另外你們現在在跟地方政府在談這個分配財政收支劃分法我認為正本清源它除了收還有支"},{"start":507.344,"end":536.336,"text":"所以資的部分要先釐清權責要先劃分清楚之後才根據資的部分誰的權責要花多少錢再來分配你千萬不要收的部分先分一分之後然後資的部分沒有釐清那給他那麼多錢我以新北市政府而言我來自新莊嘛新北市政府光統合分配稅款多了四五百億那你如果沒有跟他講要怎麼用的話那這四五百億要幹嘛拿來普發嗎"},{"start":537.702,"end":558.987,"text":"所以跟委員報告所以我們現在就是雙管齊下第一個就檢討這個垂直分配我覺得行政院把能力拿出來啦現在已經在做了那個分配都有在做很慢啦你這個去我記得今年年初的時候跟我回答說本來的草案"},{"start":560.163,"end":576.176,"text":"是要今年的年終就要提出了就現在已經到了年底了你們現在還在開會還在檢討然後明年看起來今年要提都來不及了嘛那前兩天卓院長還在那邊四眼淡淡說要提出新的版本"},{"start":577.743,"end":601.988,"text":"雖然你提出新的版本我認為本院不會採取因為本院現在討論事情只比力量沒有在跟你比道理的但是你仍然應該要很認真的快一點提出嘛是我跟委員報告我們現在是真的是積極在處理比如說昨天我們開會是針對是什麼針對水平分配那部分我看你昨天開會是因為今天要開這個會吧"},{"start":603.616,"end":630.086,"text":"如果今天沒有要開這個會你昨天會開那個會嗎我跟委員特別澄清這個跟今天的這個財委會完全是脫鉤的這個很早就決定了那個開會通知很早就發出去了好那我問你你事權的分配什麼時候能夠定案事權分配那一部分有各部會行政院也通令各部會去盤點所以我們會根據那個事權的盤點還有我們水平分配的這個方式我跟你講我現在一個很困難的地方在哪裡呢"},{"start":631.107,"end":649.805,"text":"過去歷年來我新莊的學校需要的建設經費我都向中央爭取那問題今年特別困難在哪裡就是因為這個一直不定所以它到底教育部有多少裁員可以去使用變成在一個不確定的狀況很多事情都一直跌宕一直延下來"},{"start":650.939,"end":668.486,"text":"所以我跟委員報告就是現在就是雙管齊下現在我們積極在做那我們現在就是我們深信這一次這一次一定會在這個會期我套一句蘇貞昌院長講的話假案也好 疑案也好拖延案最不好"},{"start":670.373,"end":695.763,"text":"因為不定不定就什麼事情都沒有辦法定下來所以你聽懂這句話趕快提出來假案也好 疑案也好雖然本院處理事情比力量沒有在比道理會 這一次一定會提出來你們還是仍然要提出來一直拖延很多事情都沒有辦法確定下來會爭取在這個會期一定會提出來加油啦反正希望能夠提出一個合理的版本謝謝 謝謝好 我們謝謝吳秉瑞委員市長 先請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":129,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（9時32分）主席，麻煩請財政部阮次長。"],["主席：請阮次長。"],["阮次長清華：委員好。"],["吳委員秉叡：次長早。根據您的報告，114年度統籌分配稅款的規模是4,676億……"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["吳委員秉叡：你有沒有估算過，到了年底實際上會是多少？因為這是預估數，不是實際數。"],["阮次長清華：這個是按照通知分配數，這個是今年……"],["吳委員秉叡：對，但是歷年到了年底有賸餘的時候，還會再一波嘛！"],["阮次長清華：對、對、對。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，以113年來講，113年你的預估數是多少？"],["阮次長清華：113年？"],["吳委員秉叡：統籌分配稅款，因為113年已經結束了，114年現在到10月，就還有兩個多月……"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["吳委員秉叡：你今年的估算數是4,676億，我認為會高於4,676億……"],["阮次長清華：有可能啦！"],["吳委員秉叡：不是有可能，是一定會……"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以我拿113年來跟你檢討，你113年的數字是多少？"],["阮次長清華：113年的數字，我請……"],["吳委員秉叡：你們現在趕快提供給次長啊！"],["阮次長清華：4,539億。"],["吳委員秉叡：4,539億是預估數，實際數是多少？"],["阮次長清華：是實際分配的數字。"],["吳委員秉叡：4,539億。"],["阮次長清華：對，4,539億。"],["吳委員秉叡：原來的預估數是多少？"],["阮次長清華：原來預估數，委員，是不是待會他們找到以後我再來補充？"],["吳委員秉叡：不是，我就是要跟你講，其實你這個預估數是失真啦！你這個預估數的規模少太多了。舉一個例子，你的報告裡面講114年度4,676億元，到了115年會增加到8,841億，所以會增加4,165億，不只啦！"],["阮次長清華：這個最主要……"],["吳委員秉叡：因為臺灣的GDP，像剛剛主計長講的，今年可能會增加5%，光這5%，整個國內的消費規模會增加多少！增加多少裡面5%的消費稅收會增加多少！所以你估的這個都比實際發生的數字保守。"],["阮次長清華：對，如果稅收繼續比預算數增加的話，當然出去的金額就大嘛！"],["吳委員秉叡：我看到昨天的媒體報導說9月電子產品包括AI，訂單是九百多億美金，創歷史紀錄……"],["阮次長清華：對、對、對。"],["吳委員秉叡：以前的歷史紀錄就七百多億而已……"],["阮次長清華：這個最主要是因為拉貨……"],["吳委員秉叡：一口氣拉高了一百多億美金。這個GDP規模，當然我知道，現在就兩塊，呈M型，傳產的部分，因為中國用政府補貼，沒有照自由世界的經濟方式在運作，所以傳產的部分都被中國卷得很厲害，全世界都一致，那有的人就是不會去怪中國，他就是怪自己的政府，我們不管他是從哪個觀點來看，但是我們在電子和AI這個部分不得了，現在全世界成長最快的就是美國和臺灣……"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以GDP顯然會增加很多。"],["阮次長清華：所以我想委員都很清楚，就是……"],["吳委員秉叡：不然，講113年後來第二波再撥給地方政府的有多少？"],["阮次長清華：第二波，就是到年底再撥的……"],["吳委員秉叡：年底的時候。"],["阮次長清華：465億，也就是……"],["吳委員秉叡：對，就是比你預估數要多，對不對？"],["阮次長清華：對，因為只要是實徵數超過預算數的話，就會有額外再撥的問題，這個都會有啦！"],["吳委員秉叡：是啊！我講了非常多遍，因為你們把預算收入都估得很保守……"],["阮次長清華：是、是、是。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以讓每一次實收數都高過預算數很多，就引起很多政治上無謂的紛擾。"],["阮次長清華：我了解，過去這幾年的確是有這種情況，不過今年……"],["吳委員秉叡：不只這幾年，今年也一樣。"],["阮次長清華：今年，我跟委員報告……"],["吳委員秉叡：今年到目前實收數會比較少的原因是因為你因應關稅，所以讓它可以延緩繳稅，還有以前的預估稅額你們也不收了，是因為這樣子，所以你們的預算執行數才稍微落後。"],["阮次長清華：最主要是同意它分期或者是延期繳納啦！"],["吳委員秉叡：對，那一塊再補回來，你們還是超過預算數啦！"],["阮次長清華：這個要看到年底，到目前為止，我們……"],["吳委員秉叡：不然我們來打賭，你敢不敢？"],["阮次長清華：這個東西真的是很難，因為10月、11月，所以還有……"],["吳委員秉叡：我敢跟你打賭，不然我們來打賭，誰輸誰辭掉。"],["阮次長清華：我想這個不是打賭，這個是一個數……"],["吳委員秉叡：不是，這是明明就看得到的東西，但你們財政部每次的估算都要算得這麼保守，我不知道這個意義在哪裡？你們一直說：我們的徵收稅數都已經達到100%，所以我們的表現很好。我在這邊講過非常多次了，就算你們的稅收收不到100%，收到98%、99%，有誰會怪你們呢？"],["阮次長清華：是、是。"],["吳委員秉叡：因為那是一個預估數啊！"],["阮次長清華：知道、知道、知道，所以我們……"],["吳委員秉叡：但你們就寧願把它估得非常保守，讓實徵數來超過預算數很多，結果讓人家來講要還稅於民，還稅於民是個假議題嘛，那個是全民都拿到，又不是繳稅的人拿到……"],["阮次長清華：是、是、是。"],["吳委員秉叡：那這還稅給誰啊！"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：如果要還稅於民，真正的定義是誰繳還給誰，對不對？"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["吳委員秉叡：那就不是嘛！就是隨便扣一個帽子，就是亂講，始作俑者就是我講的原因，你們的估計都真的估得太保守，你看113年度最後一波額外撥補四百多億給地方政府，我相信今年（114年）一樣，甚至還超過四百多億這個數字。"],["阮次長清華：今年比較特別，因為還有臺美關稅的問題，所以現在還很難預料。"],["吳委員秉叡：總統昨天已經跟你講好消息了：臺美關稅，第一，會比現在的再降；第二，不疊加；第三，關於電子產品那一部分，還有更好的條件。"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：你現在講這個和總統昨天講的，你是打他的臉，是不是？"],["阮次長清華：也不是，其實我是覺得像……"],["吳委員秉叡：其實政府的努力要讓全民知道，這麼努力在做，然後你看前面的質詢把你們講得一無是處。"],["阮次長清華：是、是、是，我跟委員報告，過去我也跟委員報告過，就是我們現在成立有關預算估測的小組，其實它也發揮一定的功能，像今年來講，我覺得會不會到委員講的四百多億還在未定之天，但是基本上我們已經朝更精準的方向……"],["吳委員秉叡：一定會超過4,676億，這一點肯定吧！"],["阮次長清華：這一點……"],["吳委員秉叡：我剛剛跟你講的是一定會超過4,676億。"],["阮次長清華：以目前我們相關單位的估測，今年是相對保守，也就是到目前為止，就中央來講，比去年同期的大概減了1.7%，所以到下個月……"],["吳委員秉叡：我剛剛就跟你講了，會少1.7%的原因是你同意讓人家延緩還有分期，如果沒有這個東西的話，現在還是超過這個百分之一點多的數字啊！"],["阮次長清華：是，沒有錯，但是既然准它延期或分期，那今年就不能用了。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以是因為你的政策同意讓它延緩繳稅，如果可以這樣調整的話，我都故意讓今年要繳的稅變明年再繳，那當然今年就達不到了，但是我們現在就是算實際數，我個人認為，主計跟財政這兩個單位對於這個數字一定要精確，不然在施政上會發生很多的扭曲。"],["阮次長清華：謝謝委員指教，這部分我們真的再來努力，希望將來在估算的時候能夠更精準。"],["吳委員秉叡：另外，你們現在跟地方政府在談這個分配，財政收支劃分法我認為要正本清源，它除了收還有支，所以支的部分要先釐清，權責要先劃分清楚之後，才根據支的部分，誰的權責要花多少錢，再來分配，千萬不要收的部分先分一分之後，然後支的部分沒有釐清，就給它這麼多錢。以新北市政府為例，我來自新莊，新北市政府光統籌分配稅款多了四、五百億，你如果沒有跟它講要怎麼用的話，那這四、五百億要幹嘛？拿來普發嗎？"],["阮次長清華：跟委員報告，所以我們現在就是雙管齊下，第一個，檢討垂直分配……"],["吳委員秉叡：我覺得行政院要把能力拿出來……"],["阮次長清華：現在已經在做了。"],["吳委員秉叡：都有在做，但很慢，我記得今年年初的時候回答我說，本來的草案是今年的年中就要提出了，結果現在已經到年底了，你們還在開會、還在檢討，看起來今年要提都來不及，前兩天卓院長還信誓旦旦說要提出新的版本，雖然你提出新的版本，但我認為本院不會採取，因為本院現在討論事情只比力量，沒有在跟你比道理的。"],["阮次長清華：知道、知道。"],["吳委員秉叡：但是你仍然應該要很認真的快一點提出。"],["阮次長清華：是，我跟委員報告，我們現在真的是積極在處理，比如說昨天我們開會是針對水平分配那部分。"],["吳委員秉叡：我看你昨天開會是因為今天要開這個會吧！"],["阮次長清華：不是、不是。"],["吳委員秉叡：如果今天沒有要開這個會，你昨天會開那個會嗎？"],["阮次長清華：我跟委員特別澄清，那跟今天的財委會完全是脫鉤的，這個很早就決定了，開會通知很早就發出去了。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，那我問你，事權的分配你們什麼時候能夠定案？"],["阮次長清華：事權分配那部分行政院也通令各部會去盤點，所以我們會根據事權盤點的結果還有水平分配的方式，研擬一個……"],["吳委員秉叡：我跟你講現在有困難的地方在哪裡，過去歷年來新莊的學校需要的建設經費我都向中央爭取，但今年特別困難在哪裡？就是因為這個一直不定，所以到底教育部有多少財源可以使用變成是一個不確定的狀況，很多事情都一直延宕下來。"],["阮次長清華：所以我跟委員報告，現在就是雙管齊下，我們積極在做，我們深信這次一定會在這個會期……"],["吳委員秉叡：我套一句蘇貞昌院長講的話，甲案也好、乙案也好，拖延案最不好，因為不定，不定就什麼事情都沒有辦法定下來，所以請你聽懂這句話，趕快提出來，甲案也好、乙案也好，雖然本院處理事情比力量，沒有在比道理，你們還是要提出來，一直拖延，很多事情都沒有辦法確定下來。"],["阮次長清華：會，這次一定會提出來，我們會爭取在這個會期一定會提出來，謝謝。"],["吳委員秉叡：加油，反正希望能夠提出一個合理的版本。"],["阮次長清華：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳秉叡委員，次長先請回。","接下來請賴士葆委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":398,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-3","speakers":["林思銘","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","李坤城","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","羅明才","王世堅","張啓楷","洪孟楷","陳玉珍","楊瓊瓔","高金素梅","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":333,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148701_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處、財政部就「中央對直轄市及縣（市）政府補助辦法修正後，一般性補助款\n審查與評比基準、財務計畫檢核基礎、撥款方式等規範及作業程序為何？修改財力級次計算公式\n之合理性及對各縣市補助款影響為何？計畫型補助款範圍與業務定義？對各縣市未來整體財政補\n助金額之影響」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148701_00014"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}