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謝謝"},{"start":2524.81,"end":2550.933,"text":"那更不應該啊,他連跟院長請假都沒有,那我們朝夷協商是沒關係,那個轉達陳部長又朝夷協商做優先,好不好?好那我們現在來進行第一案,我們1月3號已經大家講好了,我們有順著一案一案來溝通那發展觀光條例,我們現在首先請各黨團來表達意見那蔡書記長,你舉手了是不是?沒有哪一位要表達意見?"},{"start":2557.886,"end":2580.204,"text":"我們事實上在上個星期五我們朝野協商已經大家基本有共識明天可以進入竹條來做處理事實上上個星期五我們也已經進行了廣泛的討論在這一部分事實上我想各黨其實對於一個基本的態度就講得都非常清楚"},{"start":2580.965,"end":2600.175,"text":"那當然以國民黨台的態度我們會希望那觀光發展條例因為事實上這個這些條文裡面大概有六條事實上是民進黨王美惠委員的提案那我們也予以尊重那然後在院會裡面其實也有很多的條文"},{"start":2601.335,"end":2623.885,"text":"基本上也是愿为会讨论出来的那大概可能在明天需要处理的一条就是有关于展延五年的问题那这个部分虽然那个各党团可能还有不同的意见但是呢在上个星期五大家也有一致的共识就是在明天的时候呢我们仍然会进入一些主条有些比较有争议性的"},{"start":2624.545,"end":2644.674,"text":"的條文大家會來做一些論述來討論之後我們還是在進行議事處理所以我想今天這個條文應該是非常簡單的以上謝謝好謝謝請柯建民總長請台灣民眾黨請準備上禮拜的朝鮮黨"},{"start":2652.904,"end":2678.632,"text":"執行委員院長不在嘛那副院長主持,副院長主持在大概有主持跟沒有主持一樣都是我們黨團自己在談那一個很簡單的事情可以十分鐘談完了被郭文綺以及黃國昌然後當郭文綺講完的時候他的條件我們全部答應他趕快跑然後讓黃國昌再反對這樣這樣丟來丟去我講話你不要聽我都審慎事實孝順小一點沒有"},{"start":2683.447,"end":2695.666,"text":"高興表現在你旁邊就好了,好不好來重新開始啊高興寫在你上就好了,好不好所以呢一個"},{"start":2697.106,"end":2720.532,"text":"9月8日開始跟論壇以後一個簡單十分鐘非常難的事情搞到了校委裁判表決一再刁難往前看的時候大家對於未來這兩個法案早就有共識因為我一直講一個事情我剛剛問你講一個事情,你早講一個事情就是說我們要揚棄這一屆以來"},{"start":2724.962,"end":2753.108,"text":"韓院長首主持宴會的樣態什麼樣態呢過去三十年來沒有人敢這樣做那我們這個另外的周秘書長等一下應該回答一下也在包開佔領主義台然後點名表決兩次如此所以扣錢法案這是三個法案可以這種如此所以我認為過去沒有"},{"start":2754.441,"end":2782.212,"text":"過去王院長的時候,就一再寫章,院長是調而定來另外一組是把第三條規定很清楚院長必須推出政黨,不能有黨職然後要總理,所以要調而定來,王院長做得最徹底往後,再往後面一點的話,剩下前院長,尤其是前院長"},{"start":2783.604,"end":2796.237,"text":"至少要表決前一定有吵的協商不管協商的次數多廣,一定奉行就是說要有協商協商以後沒有結論沒有關係"},{"start":2797.665,"end":2821.841,"text":"才能讓他簽名就說沒有結婚那叫意識程序處理那意識程序處理就是每一個人都可以發言就是展現高度民主程序所以我一直跟婦女講說我們要重新建立、重塑立法人的新文化醫療大家不要再玩傢伙啦,都在學法啦"},{"start":2823.148,"end":2845.649,"text":"啊為了游來什麼?你們國民黨占領主義台有人要衝上去有人被丟下來啊這是何其危險的事情啊這一過程的肆意謀殺的現行法可以提告的啊這非常危險那可以把他甩到地上然後用腳踩當維民黨黨派那種招我看不下去啊"},{"start":2846.986,"end":2874.831,"text":"雖然國民黨現在是身體很健康,但頭腦不見得很好那就是空無有力,空無有力行政院長我請問,這種情形可以再繼續下去嗎?所以我很抱歉說,對於這次我們所有三個法案既然因為經過所有程序,也無辜於處理了盡量可以"},{"start":2876.673,"end":2891.911,"text":"扣住說這個陳一貞召委以及新一任召委所以召委說不能送出立法院這真的,這當然太離譜了哪一個經過,因為這個表決過,而且當然衝突下表決然後說"},{"start":2897.157,"end":2913.906,"text":"跟觀光發展條例有關係嗎?這有牽連性好不好,牽連性你不要緊張,明天就有表決兩條條,三個條而已,而且一定會表決嘛所以今天我們要把這東西講清楚,我們今天要的只是發言記錄而已所以請你先忍耐"},{"start":2915.487,"end":2935.981,"text":"你要寫一定標革的,三天要標革,我想請一個人翻譯一分鐘而已,三分鐘而已所以明天的議程絕對是很私立合併的所以我一直主張,我跟妳講說我們在重塑立法的文化,以後就叫民主程序一直程序翻譯後、協商後"},{"start":2938.303,"end":2961.423,"text":"有結論你叫結論處理,結論說只剩下一條就一條沒有結論,那中文發言,結論我有幾個發言都講好這才是立法院以後就要這樣做我希望多申請他兩次,你平時你批我然後向中國交代這種行為應該回本歷史遺跡"},{"start":2965.214,"end":2986.625,"text":"他們都忘記學法那韓院長剛才自己很有氣的老同事他很會討論自己薄金一餐他說這可能我是最後一次解釋,只是抄一箱我們都希望說一一成正沒關係,我們大家老兄弟學會考驗一下所以為什麼我發動報名院長當年"},{"start":2990.936,"end":3016.569,"text":"施選主席施明德跟劉昌晉院長差一票我們都怕這個嚇到會把院長、副院長選舉辦法馬上改選舉是選舉二十一罷免雙折所以就非常剛性的院長做得很穩但是不能借然後呢"},{"start":3017.54,"end":3032.197,"text":"每次改選院長有最資深的立委來主持選舉院長所以在韓院長你也知道你選舉我是我主持,我花當選證書給你所以我有前一五來提點這些例子讓你了解"},{"start":3034.171,"end":3055.401,"text":"所以我發檔案證書給歐錫勳前院長,發檔案證書給蔡英文前院長所以老同事,而且我發檔案證書給你,我還跟你講說,我還跟你講一番話在後面所以我今天要講就是說,我還找不到一條法令和憲法"},{"start":3058.965,"end":3086.592,"text":"三途通過,而且經過婚姻程序啦國民黨,我想不到,我怎麼看不到我現在應該先去排隊在前門站排隊排好幾天氣昏苦雨,很像孤城劣質狀人家好不容易站在主席台,又表決搞到衝突一整天你們現在竟然不敢把三途通過的法案"},{"start":3089.798,"end":3118.329,"text":"送到總統府以及行政院這憲法72條你共同違憲,違背了現在現在講什麼呢?現在72條是說越南通俄法律案要送總統府行政院總統接到以後,收到以後,時日內必須公告這很清楚那我不知道各位在民主化這麼久了"},{"start":3120.149,"end":3148.416,"text":"今天我們看到一晚可以徹底毀憲亂政,民進黨在這一屆開始,是不是大家要想一想這個事情?何文綺你雖然霸氣十足,但你仗著武力,免南白過半然後一聲令下,你底下馬虎就衝撞,那把民進黨當成小雞來處理"},{"start":3150.424,"end":3178.209,"text":"我直接告訴你,你不要忘記,你以後還要一顆腫瘡好不好?我今天哪管這樣來?這張藝職員啊張藝職員,要棒打藍白啊你們自己小心一點好,謝謝等一下還沒有,這才引言而已啊好,我們要回來發言官要條例是吧?要回來是吧?好拜託,院長現在"},{"start":3180.198,"end":3193.043,"text":"講這麼客氣,我岂可不順從呢?我們進行不如從命啊我可以贏130分鐘?我可以贏130分鐘?我可以贏130分鐘?我可以贏130分鐘?我可以贏130分鐘?我會把記者會的講話全部"},{"start":3205.413,"end":3230.849,"text":"文字化在我臉書上面,有空就拜讀,有空就拜讀,這一定很有幫助我們今天要談的就是說我們是一個憲法,我們是好治國,這個憲法很重要有關於救護團之類大家想一想,我們這些老人"},{"start":3233.257,"end":3247.169,"text":"我高中的時候曾經參加過揪團縱走縱橫這個大家有走過吧我不知道阿姨老闆在座各位知道揪團什麼時候成立的嗎揪團是在我誕生以後的一年我是民國40年揪團是民國41年成立的那時候的老蔣時代"},{"start":3260.782,"end":3285.33,"text":"指揮者當然是蔣經國嘛他是一個威廉體制下的儀器他成立的時候就成名叫做中國反共新年舊團成起而始現在還是中國舊團反共不見了在反共民國七十八年以後反共都不見了"},{"start":3287.253,"end":3311.087,"text":"那現在變成做違法的民宿,這些東西怎麼救人的原因我大概就很清楚以前是直接立處理,那是國安部、國安委員會然後後來就改為行政院監管但是這個就很清楚的,這是國民黨的負責組織"},{"start":3315.679,"end":3337.786,"text":"當年不當產產條例2016我們提出以後75號就是解嚴解嚴就說那天我們把不當產產申請通過這是我提的歷史的空間都有它一定的意義所以不當產產條例通過以後黨產會就開始追索不當產產的公司"},{"start":3343.84,"end":3367.433,"text":"國民黨複合組織包括共產黨、互聯會等等一大堆那就展開黨黨委員會就開始展開追索那共產黨國民黨記不完,然後高雄行政法院打也贏了所以高雄行政法院打都贏了所以現在是共產黨去釋憲"},{"start":3369.436,"end":3397.438,"text":"所以沒有用,本來就是你不當產產輸給主席交出來的交出來交給不當產產委員會是合法合憲的手段所以各位可以聽我們老人都知道這個歷史這個歷史大家想一想我們要躲出威脅時期"},{"start":3399.187,"end":3417.866,"text":"所以當年我們對於這促進轉變條例,也是我提的它是一個框架式立法,就是追求真相有真相才有和解嘛,然後司法平復"},{"start":3419.398,"end":3439.574,"text":"還有呢?還有就是不予移植,那總是不予移植所以在這樣的情況底下,最後就是黨產條例這四個框架立法,我們今天就談到救火團這個事情既然救火團已經被判為陷,逼走出來,此時此刻救火團是什麼樣態大家想一想"},{"start":3441.041,"end":3456.527,"text":"其實舊團包括明年主任有些都是大家年輕的朋友雖然不管藍綠我們都沒有走過舊團那個時代那舊團後來柯永光來負責所以大家想一想歷史已經翻頁了歷史已經翻頁了歷史已經過去了"},{"start":3472.574,"end":3500.324,"text":"那轉型正義條約通過,轉型正義條約是在說什麼?是國民黨世界以後到解嚴金門罪犯解嚴,那太慢了,不等於你時間所花的事情,不分族群、男女一概來使用那建制黨常常在這裡就是說,任何不當黨產已經釋憲出來了它必須交還,這是屬於負責職,必須交給國家"},{"start":3502.898,"end":3520.809,"text":"那在教育國家的時候,那教育團現在還在頑強抵抗那它產生什麼問題呢?是非法營業它整棟民宿啊,當然嚴重漏水,都非常嚴重漏水啊"},{"start":3522.738,"end":3546.046,"text":"這個東西國家法律上極可放著不處理的在國家法律上當然這些已經走完所有程序,離世界也輸了高薪、最高薪都輸了趕快交出來就好了今天我們看到國民黨,我等一下看國民黨主席講今天來的民眾黨很可惜,黃國昌沒有來"},{"start":3550.609,"end":3555.918,"text":"我頂多久的,我頂多久的,我扣來好不好來等一下,我講重點你電話來了,你剛剛電話響了沒關係,那不重要"},{"start":3566.135,"end":3580.91,"text":"所以我今天要告訴你特別就是說,大家共同時期思考一個事情,就從民國40年開始搞到今天,後來蔣經國當主任,後來搞到葛永光,這是那個未經時期的遺棄,那時候還有反共新黨部,"},{"start":3586.435,"end":3611.664,"text":"還有邵剛辦公室還有王生那種衛生時代全部結束的時候今天應該大家共同的迎向一個新的民主時代所以國民黨還可以提前讓這個集合團可以再延五年我今天要講一個很嚴肅的問題喔假如今天國民黨敢表決這個法案我先算一提醒已經被判違憲的東西違憲的東西已經要再延長"},{"start":3614.125,"end":3627.126,"text":"那就馬上面對一個貪汙智慧條約的圖利你就表現一下你就雞衰壞囉那每一個人都要面對官司你們都要面對官司除非他人至少五年以上所以請國民黨順勢"},{"start":3629.045,"end":3646.612,"text":"然後大家要有憲政觀念要有法治觀念假如國民黨黨這個表決已經被判違憲了已經是違憲了而且要關門了今年年底要結束一頁你要跟他延五年讓他繼續營利這是圖利的個案"},{"start":3649.079,"end":3671.664,"text":"所以這個馬上造成所謂的貪汙自衛條例圖利罪國民黨整黨都應該會到案例審考你們自己想一想我現在告訴大家去年大法庭做重新解釋到底貪汙自衛條例有關貪汙自衛條例實際影響力是實際影響力還是法定直言說"},{"start":3677.162,"end":3697.519,"text":"後來阿扁的時候就被用實質影響器把他抓去關那臨時用法定時限後來現在大庭,這段法院拿大庭同意解釋全部用實質影響器用在每一個公務人員像我們這樣的廣義公務人員還有一個公務人員利益衝突違規法"},{"start":3703.513,"end":3726.425,"text":"不過有一些充足迴避法是怎麼規定的?就是要利益迴避,沒有利益迴避的話,當然會有刑責、會有問題所以當大法庭統一解釋,這個是實質營養力失控的時候,在檢察官在扣住利益充足迴避法你雖然圖利他人或圖利自己,就有不同樣態"},{"start":3729.847,"end":3753.133,"text":"那這個過去新北市一個副議長叫陳文智主席對不起主席會不會有些時間限制因為我們還有好幾個案子就說我覺得因為我們如果救市論事救這個法案已經三個小時過去了28分鐘已經都扯到天保一世了沒有現在再講這個問題請到你們"},{"start":3754.773,"end":3759.28,"text":"趕快要時間,拜託一下趕快一下時間吧,我們這麼多人時間六份圖利,他下飛機的時候馬上被上火了所以我在這裡告訴國民黨,你們自己要小心最危險的"},{"start":3770.137,"end":3786.508,"text":"而且違法的,你趕快表決,決的過程圖利,不是圖利老百姓,你是圖利一家一家民宿所以在這裡提出三頁提前聽不相信的話,你當作我亂講話,沒有關係,胡言亂語"},{"start":3793.22,"end":3800.982,"text":"好謝謝我在這裡告訴各位現在是國民黨熱搜時間總統國民黨即將走進一石不化爐了我們自己要小心後台零五百謝謝總統謝謝本席已經參進告知人謝謝客人的發言謝謝你們可以用我發言的同樣的時間來跟我辯護好這兩倍的時間我都可以接受"},{"start":3821.787,"end":3821.988,"text":"謝謝 臺灣民眾黨請發言好 謝謝主席"},{"start":3833.943,"end":3837.984,"text":"為什麼剛才我說總召就和你黏黏的等一下再來講事實上要陳述一下我們禮拜五本來十點要開會了我們和總召在那邊錄幾波錄到兩點才開會是他要331"},{"start":3853.849,"end":3872.655,"text":"是他的原則551也是他的原則只要在立法院都是他的原則所以呢是他們在協商的時候他就是要照他的命令照他的條款照他的規定才能開會如果沒有照他的話就不能開會我們為什麼一直在裡面跟他開兩三個小時我怕肺癌呀"},{"start":3879.582,"end":3896.295,"text":"記一記一記抽一直抽菸我們坐在那邊跟他協商韓院長你要注意啊得肺癌啊對啊每天協商在那邊一直在抽菸所以說我們就受不了對所以啊所以抽菸就好了你就是要輸嗎不然你就點點你點點人家講話不要插嘴不要插嘴"},{"start":3905.359,"end":3919.745,"text":"要說得好,你總召喚到五四三再說得好,真言說瞎話本來我們在協商,我們希望要講的是議題協商的就是要開會,點點,就是要回應你們的總召人家說一大堆,說的五四三所以呢,就是老飯店,我們尊重"},{"start":3930.45,"end":3934.053,"text":"尊重他 尊重他說30年但是不能說30年我們尊重他就亂講 亂等這樣是他講的算嗎對不對 浪費很多人的時間所以今天我們來這邊協商的時候我們也是一樣針對議題來去講才能達到效果不是在講過去 大家都創新"},{"start":3956.753,"end":3960.535,"text":"大家都要往前走所以我們希望我們今天講的就是我們發展觀光條例第二條還有第17條還有條字二條文"},{"start":3972.982,"end":3996.174,"text":"就是條文修正這邊的重點第一個我們要修法的要求就是在2014年修法要求特定對象就是國軍教師勞工還有青年學生登山客公交人員等我們的住宿場所需要10年完成旅館的登記"},{"start":3998.175,"end":4001.696,"text":"去今年2月4日前但是現在我們還沒有看到所以我們覺得說有這樣子的主要的問題我們希望就是我們要特定的對象還有住宿的需求要滿足我們的旅館還有我們需要的地方還有觀光休閒產業休閒還有我們的政府業者還有我們民眾我們三方"},{"start":4027.207,"end":4035.096,"text":"要怎麼樣達成共識也讓他們可以不要受到影響所以我們是建議像我們當天我們禮拜五協商這個也在我們的協商當中我們是那一天我們要表決的是三個法案"},{"start":4044.767,"end":4047.648,"text":"但是呢 我們科總召不想要開會一直盧 就說一個就好 一個好到最後我們也同意就表決一個法案所以今天來這邊有很多我們要協商的希望我們要針對我們的"},{"start":4061.713,"end":4063.575,"text":"發展觀光條例還有我們的中世代還有其他的針對這樣的議題來去協商達成共識讓全世界全台灣的人站在我們這邊協商的是要講的是我們要怎麼樣"},{"start":4078.53,"end":4082.531,"text":"互相去討論達成共識不是要去講別人的怎麼樣別人怎麼樣過去怎麼樣我覺得真的是浪費很多時間啊真的不管任何人時間都很寶貴每一個人看到電視我們是要來學習我們的立法院怎麼去開會我們立法院怎麼樣去為了國家怎麼訂定一些條款"},{"start":4103.979,"end":4106.681,"text":"福國利民的不是每天都在那邊吵架我們希望拜託民進黨不要為了自己的表現一直在那邊講一堆的我希望是這樣今天也是因為我們總召在司法那邊還在開會所以我們希望我們在這裡真正的把我們每一條每一條"},{"start":4128.1,"end":4155.471,"text":"大家講出來達成共識才不會造成明天大家翻臉或者是大家就在那邊吵在那邊打這樣子我們全世界都不想看到這種畫面以上謝謝謝謝麥玉珍委員發言麥玉珍委員發言我已經很這個院長很可憐又要被罷免又已經得肺癌了很可憐我們現在請傅坤吉總要發言吳思瑤幹事長請準備"},{"start":4158.455,"end":4183.881,"text":"那個院長我們第一題大概剛剛民進黨已經表達立場很清楚所以我們第一題就結束了我們開始進行第二題了好不好第一條沒有共識嘛它從以前是從30年講起現在從民國40年講起了現在從70幾年前開始講起也差不多講完了啦是不是啊院長我們第二條警察人員條例的部分"},{"start":4187.256,"end":4189.278,"text":"再忍耐一下"},{"start":4206.383,"end":4210.125,"text":"我想在這裡啊真的柯總召在立法院啊真的是讓很多的先進的立委啊"},{"start":4235,"end":4247.721,"text":"能夠在這裡啊知道怎麼樣來修煉人生的品格啊要面對什麼樣的這樣的一個刺蝟亡兩的精神教育啊還要啊"},{"start":4249.476,"end":4269.859,"text":"這個心境能夠抱怨手衣在不斷的忍耐中才能夠成長我們特別謝謝柯總召給這麼多的青年孩子來到立法院服務啊能夠給大家有一個磨練的機會不過我還是要回到回到上個禮拜五"},{"start":4271.837,"end":4298.605,"text":"因為上個禮拜五也是以往例啊因為上個禮拜五跟明天禮拜二是一次會但在這一次會裡面呢柯總召還是用慣用魔法幫又拿出來了用威脅會議主席江啟臣說沒有照我的意思的話你看你能不能走上主席台你試試看好"},{"start":4299.574,"end":4321.304,"text":"那江啟臣副院長在被威脅的情況之下我們紅衛首席副書記長極度的強烈的表達柯總召你用在當面恐嚇人那很高興的是當我還沒有講話的時候江啟臣副院長說了一句話"},{"start":4329.144,"end":4358.251,"text":"我希望給海運長做參考他說不然你現在是在欺負我嗎面對柯總召說不然你現在是在欺負我嗎結果惡馬還要惡人騎啊那柯總召馬上就熄火了 點點啊因為他知道江啟臣副院長不吃他這一套他就乖乖就夾著尾巴不講話了接著下來就是說實在是"},{"start":4359.944,"end":4387.393,"text":"國民黨也好民眾黨也好總是覺得說能夠讓會議進行我們再三忍讓都沒有關係所以這位大法師又搞出了一個一個那天簽的協議那個簽的協議所有的文字都要照他講的簽了一個協議出來不然就不能開會然後我們還是基於一個尊重"},{"start":4388.513,"end":4412.918,"text":"因為他年事已高三不時要重塑30年前到現在的事情所以呢我們很不得已啊為了讓立法院的議事能夠順利走下去我們還是很忍讓的又再簽下這個議事內容裡面寫得很清楚這個五須經過"},{"start":4419.309,"end":4431.008,"text":"有協商結論吳旭經過有協商結論我們就可以依照院會的相關規定來處理當然我也沒有想到說"},{"start":4433.12,"end":4451.867,"text":"我們寇總召真的是前驢技窮啊來到這個這麼莊嚴的會場又開始啊把馬戲團的馬戲又拿出來再來講半小時一小時半小時一小時我覺得真的是沒有必要我們哪一題我們就針對那一題去討論就可以了"},{"start":4452.919,"end":4472.965,"text":"至於說剛剛一直不斷的在講到那個什麼救護團的事情我對於柯總召竟然對救護團還有一點感情我們也是表達非常詫異但是我們還是要去思考一下有這麼多的教師會館景光會館英雄館"},{"start":4475.892,"end":4499.606,"text":"還有我們的香客大樓還有這麼多這麼多這麼多需要政府來輔導讓他們能夠走上合法化有這麼多的這些民間的還是相關團體的這些可以居住的會所是不是有足夠的時間"},{"start":4502.088,"end":4530.264,"text":"來給他們做一個把所有的license都能夠齊備所以上一次上一次是延十年那十年如果力有未逮因為事實上現在完成所有手續性的比例並不高所以呢現在我們這次啊大家討論是希望能夠願會大家一起來做決議不然願會處理"},{"start":4531.934,"end":4550.962,"text":"能夠再有一個載營的時間能夠讓大家能夠順利的都能夠合法性的來持續的營業這個是為台灣的觀光還有各方面的團體還有這個宗教也投入一個大家能夠"},{"start":4552.122,"end":4572.305,"text":"彼此互相尊重所以我想院長我今天沒有講半小時除了會議詢問以外我大概就講了五六分鐘希望說我們能夠按照上禮拜五的這個協商的共識今天不要在這裡耗費時間因為畢竟後面的議題還很多好不好謝謝"},{"start":4573.306,"end":4573.847,"text":"謝謝主席、院長、董事長"},{"start":4599.619,"end":4604.461,"text":"在這裏我網美會有提我們《發展觀光條例》的53條在裏面有人主張維持憲法也有人會覺得說我們年久未親的利用者都常常去丟包我認為這個法款要提高"},{"start":4625.754,"end":4632.62,"text":"逆改和有一個會覺得整體需要去處理的行為讓他們覺得你站在這裡很丟包對法官來說他們有一種承擔了他們後來不敢後悔做跟你們法官從以前到現在都一樣這個法官"},{"start":4648.052,"end":4650.814,"text":"如果他不走,跟丟包的時候,對我們台灣人要去祈禱,跟他去丟包,你看最近報紙那一刊電視那一集,是非常可憐的,好在他剛好有錢,沒一直過過的時間,叫天氣不會冷,叫天氣不會暈"},{"start":4667.305,"end":4677.191,"text":"所以說我們希望所有的董事跟我們的主席院長是不是大家協商一下,我覺得這應該是提高他的罰款以上謝謝王委員提案人的發言接下來請吳思耀幹事長發言,發言完畢之後我要進行處理,謝謝"},{"start":4692.239,"end":4719.029,"text":"請院長先不要這麼急切因為為什麼上週五會有這個黨團共事我想因為立法院實在不能夠一再的惡立下去任何一個議案送到院會表決前要經過院長的朝野協商這過去二三十年來都是如此只是非常遺憾這一屆的立法院從上個會期的立法院職權行使法到這個會期的憲法訴訟法"},{"start":4720.629,"end":4743.89,"text":"才化法以及戒避者保護法已經四部法律是完全沒有經過韓國瑜院長召集的朝野協商直接送院會表決這已經是惡例了我們不能讓惡例成為慣例所以說上週五為什麼民進黨團一直認為上週五我們還是要完備程序讓沒有完成韓院長主持的發展觀光條例"},{"start":4747.984,"end":4769.205,"text":"以及警察人員人事條例還是要完備這個程序這是我們的堅持真的不能一錯再錯而為要還原發展觀光條例今天我們在處理的重點是兩個條文一個是53條一個是70之2那我想院長應當也不至於貴人多忘事"},{"start":4770.046,"end":4789.566,"text":"上一次在53條的時候是沒有明確的結論的也就是當時要求交通部針對所謂的電污國家融入損害國家利益過去到底開罰了哪些要求他們做整理"},{"start":4790.347,"end":4810.127,"text":"以及要在立法說明裡頭去進行補充說明我想院長應當都記得所以53條的條文包括剛剛提案人王美惠委員所說的他的整個條文的寫商結論或者是說進入實質的部分還沒有進入所以我們還需要再大家對話"},{"start":4811.448,"end":4840.868,"text":"至於第二個條文就是70之二現在在進行的有關救國團是不是又要被展延五年持續的享有特權下去這個條文在過去上一次的院長還朝野協商是完全沒有進入討論這也是為什麼今天我們坐在這裡嚴肅的準備條文的內容我們要來就條文交換意見大家來把道理說個清楚"},{"start":4841.608,"end":4865.719,"text":"所以我现在针对70之2其实刚刚53条我回应一下王美惠委员她为什么提案要加重罚则针对这些旅馆业 观光业 旅行业 观光游乐业 民宿经营者要给予更高的罚还是因为我们认为发展观光是要越来越有品质"},{"start":4866.579,"end":4885.903,"text":"越來越能夠去保障所有的觀光客不管是本國的國旅或是外國的觀光客給予他們安全的有品質的各項旅遊的服務所以網美會委員他認為要提高這些不法業者的法則所以道理一直延續到70之2條現在針對救國團這些已經給了10年的時間去改善"},{"start":4893.826,"end":4910.084,"text":"剛剛副官級總召說要給人家足夠充分的時間去改善 去合法化請問十年不是一個很長很充足的時間了嗎十年當立委都可以當兩個半的任期了"},{"start":4911.185,"end":4925.452,"text":"為什麼十年其他的旅宿觀光業者他們願意合法去努力的都努力的去完成他的合法登記改善他所有的軟硬體而救國團做不到呢"},{"start":4926.519,"end":4948.287,"text":"所以呢這一條70之二針對特定對象的住宿場所已經給了10年的改善期國民黨的委員要求提案再展延5年要有一個清楚的理由吧現在還沒有講完這些特定對象的住宿場所有118處"},{"start":4952.089,"end":4976.602,"text":"32處已經解除了控管其他的86處有33處有意願持續經營他們也努力當中有持續的去不管是以獲得合法或者是努力爭取合法另外有31處他們是完全沒有辦法改善他就放棄經營因為要確保觀光的品質保障遊客的安全權益"},{"start":4978.263,"end":4993.993,"text":"那現在為什麼立委就要針對就因為他是國民黨的附隨組織嗎救國團就可以再擁有展延的合理理由這怎麼樣要對社會說清楚講明白啊"},{"start":4995.414,"end":5016.319,"text":"發展觀光條例是要越發展越有高品質越安全那現在怎麼越走越回去要為特定的救國團給予他圖利給予他特權然後讓整個觀光的品質走回頭路我們等於通過了這個條文就是告訴這些遊客在台灣"},{"start":5018.274,"end":5026.442,"text":"你來住舊國團這些特定對象的旅宿安全是可以打折的品質是可以打折的這些是可以繼續違法的經營的"},{"start":5029.389,"end":5050.909,"text":"國家有法律要依據啊所以我不懂做到現在為止我沒有聽到提案的委員或是各黨團的委員針對你們72條為什麼認為有合理的理由再予以它展延五年如果這樣沒完沒了啊五年展延五年展延已經給了十年還不夠嗎"},{"start":5052.697,"end":5074.904,"text":"所以說現在非常嚴重的是這些它除了本身它的建築使用執照跟旅館業不相符它的消防、建管、衛生等等的法規、品質沒有辦法達到我們國家法制的要求那這應當是這些沒有辦法改善它就要退出這個經營啊"},{"start":5077.048,"end":5091.346,"text":"否則國家以後出了安全的事情誰來負責提案修法的在野黨委員可以負責嗎這些沒有獲得消防健管衛生審查的但他持續存在持續的非法營運這個責任誰擔哪"},{"start":5095.151,"end":5124.18,"text":"我看到每一次委員在質詢的時候都要求交通部交通部要求觀光署我們要讓達到吸引更多的國際觀光客來我們要全面提升把我們的國家的這個旅遊的這個品牌建立起來台灣就是要品質高品質啊那為什麼我們現在可以容忍這些非法存在的經營業者他持續放任著安全不管衛生不管"},{"start":5125.22,"end":5145.678,"text":"我們做負責任的立法委員今天審法條講到這裡剛剛我沒有聽到提案的國民黨的委員他合理化認為要再展延五年的理由是什麼傅坤祺總召說了因為他覺得十年是不夠長的改善期限大家平平理十年是一個不夠長的改善期限"},{"start":5146.809,"end":5172.22,"text":"天啊 國民黨的覆水組織就可以有這麼大的特權如果十年還沒有辦法改善那我認為他們從頭到尾無心改善啊他就是吃定了國家會繼續放水繼續讓我這樣安全可以打折 品質可以打折我們作為立法委員這種為了特定的人士去圖利 去放寬 去就地合法讓他持續的違法營運我認為我們不應當做這樣的事情"},{"start":5176.229,"end":5204.345,"text":"我們不應當做這樣的事情所以院長這是第一次您朝野協商針對發展觀光條例的七十之二條第一次開始進行內容的討論我認為不要把協商當作過水而已那請提案委員講清楚他的合理理由是什麼好 謝謝我要跟各位黨團幹部報告今天我們從兩點開始開會有八個法律院要研究要討論目前為止第一個案"},{"start":5205.302,"end":5220.217,"text":"我們已經討論了一個半小時那如果照這樣推下去的話我們可能在今天完全沒有辦法處理完所以第一案發展公安條例我現在做以下處理我們就送院會處理休息十分鐘進入第二案"},{"start":5221.038,"end":5240.683,"text":"院長你現在有實質討論嗎?你就過水了又過水了前面半個小時都是柯總召再講粉絲山竟然恐嚇國會議員再展現五年的合理理由是什麼?為什麼國土經濟法要再展現六年?為什麼財政收支方法25年都修改出來?你再演五年"},{"start":5249.923,"end":5265.595,"text":"你還是在丹波保育區啊還是在特定的區啊他還是不能做合法的旅館啊你這是為了救護團特定的這些團體來做解套而已啊為什麼財富法要修25年修不出來你財富法要不要送出來那你財富法要不要送出來那你財富法為什麼到現在還不送出來"},{"start":5271.659,"end":5285.45,"text":"我也是跟你講實際的問題啊台灣好像現在去年的12月10號就已經結束了都已經結束了到現在來三個禮拜還送不出來送不出來稍微沒有這麼大可以扣住法案"},{"start":5782.621,"end":5800.126,"text":"請大家保持安靜我們先介紹一下我們列席的官員,首先我們歡迎內政部劉部長,歡迎您我們警政署的張署長,歡迎你沒看到張署長?警察人員條例沒看到張署長?"},{"start":5805.247,"end":5832.601,"text":"張組長好歡迎您好歡迎您請坐前面消防署的消防署的蕭署長好歡迎您歡迎您歡迎您全序部的司部長歡迎您歡迎您人事行政總署的蘇總蘇董事長歡迎您海巡署的謝副署長歡迎您好歡迎歡迎歡迎好謝謝其他相關單位就謝謝各位列席官員請坐好請坐"},{"start":5835.263,"end":5851.602,"text":"各位黨團幹部,我們現在研究根據1月3日的黨團共識,我們今天討論第二案,請柯建民總召發言請大家保持安靜,該坐下來的人都坐下來,後面好不好?那很可惜副總召不在"},{"start":5853.277,"end":5881.791,"text":"那我在這裡要講一下就是說,剛才我跟韓院長開玩笑,我在那邊怎麼突然停起來了,又去又去協商我說,欸欸,院長不要畏罪潛逃吧他就笑,他說等一下沒有關係,等一下回來我會讓你講一段就是第一個案子,因為第一個案子我還沒講完嘛你讓我講一段,然後再來進入第二段"},{"start":5884.186,"end":5909.004,"text":"不要再倒退嚕了啦拜託啦 將近是倒退嚕我們到底要開到民國幾年啊不是啦 你不要再倒退嚕了嘛我們講句論事我們要進入第二階段為什麼不能夠按照議事規則你可不可以尊重一下別人尊重發言我和我一起尊重我們總統的發言好不好尊重發言尊重大家發言尊重每一個人發言"},{"start":5913.167,"end":5938.186,"text":"就講第二案比什麼要報退第一報退錄我再報退到明年好不好沒有 我是說不是 大家的忍耐是有限度的好不好你講到什麼東西啊好你講到什麼東西啊還不夠啊我說我講半個鐘頭你們講一個鐘頭就沒問題你尊重你要懂得接受啊你一定要讓人家這樣子對不對你一定要讓人家講那麼難聽的話嗎你會講話我不會講話嗎你可以講啊好"},{"start":5942.649,"end":5949.514,"text":"同樣的啊我都告訴你我都不願意講已經有職責了我們職業在後要是你不要我都可以講一個鬆頭啊但是我不願意我要尊重院長尊重所有的人你有尊重別人嗎你有尊重別人嗎你要叫我繼續我們就繼續講啊你不一個小時我陪你啊好不好我就陪你啊對不對你講啊你講我就跟你講你不尊重別人我為什麼要尊重你來"},{"start":5973.318,"end":5981.704,"text":"那不要講話了 我來看一下他一定要一直折磨別人嗎你折磨很好聽嗎 大家就要聆聽嗎怎麼叫折磨 你聽過折磨嗎對不對 本來就是折磨啊你剛才已經講完了你講三十分鐘你還講不出來你三十分鐘還講不到終點跟你三天也講不到終點你回去寫臉書好了啦你臉書寫七萬字好不好你乾脆寫書好了不是這樣子嘛"},{"start":6002.913,"end":6005.273,"text":"我目前覺得都是你王宏威在講話好不好?"},{"start":6016.477,"end":6039.225,"text":"你尊重院長我尊重你就是這樣子關係就是這樣我再重申一遍我們發言的順序現在民進黨柯總統發言完國民黨團現在推派是趙孟靜、劉徐廷委員發言再來請台灣民眾黨發言再請第二輪再請蔡宜瑜書記長這是第一個我們先確定這個次序第二個麻煩柯總統掌握一下時間請其實"},{"start":6042.891,"end":6068.961,"text":"剛才我講一些話,講說過去整個舊人的歷史,整個憲政制度的問題當然我們聽不下去中文總是膩耳的,兩岸是苦苦的那韓院長剛才也答應我說,那等一下,在第二代以前你在中國發言一次,沒有關係,只有啟德發言前的"},{"start":6069.685,"end":6090.816,"text":"那我要澄清一下,我說你發言時分兩部分,一個是歷史的回顧,一個是法案的審查。我說第二案警察人員條例的時候,你一定會回到歷史的回顧,那時候你可以盡量法會,我當然講法是這樣。沒有關係,我都有牽連性嘛,牽連性。第一案當作第二案也無所謂,第二案我要講什麼話,各位沒有辦法制止我嘛,對不對。"},{"start":6091.937,"end":6109.398,"text":"我要講到警察人員條例,講到整個憲政制度問題,講到整個威脅時期,講國民黨現在還是有威脅的餘悉,都是一樣都有牽連性的,我的發言絕對是值得考驗,我要糾正黃國瑜委員"},{"start":6113.769,"end":6129.61,"text":"你說你去寫演書寫七方字,你錯了,我不是寫演書,那件事只有記者打電話給我說,有沒有兩天聲音在批我,我不要出來回應,我是出來回應,然後讓記者問,我講了一個鐘頭"},{"start":6130.922,"end":6147.407,"text":"那我只是把我講的話,畫成文字稿而已,放在臉書上面你在看我的臉書,這幾篇臉書很簡短市長你跟李寬春都沒有安全暗戰啦好啦,你們兩個不要講話我現在再講,剛才我看郭文綺的發言"},{"start":6152.854,"end":6172.826,"text":"請大家注意,乃至於民眾黨發言,讓我不禁想到一個事情,胡文綺的發言,乃至於民眾黨蔓越園的發言,說話都好笑面不紅,全是講反話,那我記得文革的時候四人幫"},{"start":6176.055,"end":6204.265,"text":"那時候毛澤東遇了文化革命來自於南東大躍進中國大陸死了六千萬個人這是人類的浩劫所有文化也摧毀了那這個時候我們那所謂任何民後來有出來定調三七開那江青也被抓起來了要到清晨監獄裡面去所以剛才看傅文綺、龔浩翔"},{"start":6205.245,"end":6229.984,"text":"然後那一陣全部講反話,那些草友想我全部在場的所以有一點像紅衛兵的樣子,就是革命無罪,造寒有理竟然在立法院喉聲上演,為什麼要講這些東西呢?那天我跟胡文綺私下前拜託,然後一直跟他講一個話,就是說我們要建立立法院的文化"},{"start":6232.012,"end":6256.279,"text":"沒有人在打架啦,沒有人在這樣亂搞啦只要說照一支程序來,先協商,協商沒有結論沒有關係,那就照程序大家都可以發言協商有結論,那就發言的程度可以限定,那這個整還效率嘛所以後來簽了,簽了就是說,有關明天要表決的事情,大家也討論五五一"},{"start":6257.983,"end":6264.654,"text":"主條討論依依就這麼簡單那明天這個已經全都簽好壓死了我知道國民黨"},{"start":6266.192,"end":6287.701,"text":"我想他們不敢講,不敢辯護因為不知道從何辯護那相對肚子裡面的東西也是有限的所以你要叫郭文綺講一些合乎正常的話,事實上是眼目求疑的那我在這裡想就是說,既然明天都已經訂好了非常極短的表決時間曹煒祥應該讓大家去講他的話"},{"start":6293.581,"end":6318.067,"text":"包括等一下的職場人員條例也是如此那你剛剛給行政部門講話啊怎麼剛才行政部門還沒講話就叫大家下課喇叭回家院長這一點你要注意一下連行政部門都還沒講到話你就大家欸結束砍酒等你我脫離現場這奇怪了沒有一個常委長可以如此的處理的啊"},{"start":6319.403,"end":6330.431,"text":"所以我要講就是說,整個回顧當天的情形,我們委員都在場,我很善意來跟你講一些話總共在國民黨的要求下,我們簽了五個版本"},{"start":6339.83,"end":6356.375,"text":"在開始談的時候,我跟副總統講說,我們等大家好好講,不要忘記,以後就是這樣,幾個發言人什麼時候,我們都寫定,那政治全部寫定,所以我要寫,寫很清楚嘛,所以說第一個就是說,我們"},{"start":6357.635,"end":6386.232,"text":"星期一、六、五研究到曹雷昌的時候加入了公安條例以及警察人員條例協商後有學長結論留待禮拜五、明天表決沒有學長結論就要找議事成績來處理另外明天有壯士在談判春春委員也在這裡坦白講春春委員我是蠻來欣賞他對於他的理念堅持的人"},{"start":6387.193,"end":6404.705,"text":"因為他還沒當立委的時候,他就談壯世代他也很誠懇的打電話說要來看我那時候腳痛,根本沒有辦法下床我說等我可以下床的時候,我們來談一談後來我在我辦公室跟他談,我很仔細聽他的話,他還帶很多資料"},{"start":6405.706,"end":6433.468,"text":"我說你拿這些,上週都有談過,我都知道中世代的問題所以那天我跟村長委員講說,這樣最簡單,因為民進黨這條是民進黨的嘛,集團是你的集團那條條理也是你們的,但這一題我很respect你對於你自己理念的堅持所以我說,這個東西我們談一談就簽給你了,也不必表決也不必發言"},{"start":6434.289,"end":6456.146,"text":"這就是最壞,所以剩下兩個案子而已嘛兩個案子再經檢一下只剩下三個條件要表決,所以就是這樣的程序嘛然後有關於吳征文委員所說的裝飾袋我那時候寫出來,我剛剛點一個東西就是說因為條件寫55歲以上以下才裝飾袋"},{"start":6457.694,"end":6476.81,"text":"但是像韓院長身體這樣健朗,還在主持院會,還在工作難道是倒露殘兵嗎?克隆昭雖然早開刀拿了拐杖,但是仗義之言,講話坑英有利所以我們應該把這關鍵調整"},{"start":6481.232,"end":6490.085,"text":"不要限制在55歲以上就是說你不管年齡你有工作能力"},{"start":6491.311,"end":6515.689,"text":"有工作意願都算張世代張世代是台灣最有影響力最有競爭力最有工作力的一代當然也有青年世代我們是要世代結合的所以我就建議說是不是照行政院的體育法我是可以上"},{"start":6517.52,"end":6529.929,"text":"有工作能力,像韓院長這樣,我們兩個這樣雖然沒有頭髮,但是頭髮底下的腦袋還很清楚所以人家不控制你啦,你放心啦"},{"start":6531.124,"end":6547.596,"text":"那院長聽得很,好,他都欣然同意嘛,一下就結論完畢嘛然後當然有三步,就是不再設辦公室,因為以後有國發案裡面嘛,不設辦公室"},{"start":6548.917,"end":6555.139,"text":"那還有不設基金,這很重要,不設基金,基金是違法的兩年內修法,所以大家要簽好了,簽好了以後當然"},{"start":6569.486,"end":6595.496,"text":"雖然他提了法案,民眾黨真的是拍板的是黃國昌嘛我說你去跟黃委員談一談,還有什麼意見我們都可以來改那我也覺得說下星期二就明天完全刪除這些法案所以院長你今天充裕的時間,讓大家有合格的言論自由讓大家到尾講清楚,你等一下也可以讓胡宗盛委員"},{"start":6596.836,"end":6624.188,"text":"雖然不在其中範圍內,讓他講壯士在觀念,大家會聞之動容的,OK所以我就這樣提出來,等一下,不必謝謝然後打好了,那寫出來我就不寫出來,就這一張,跟我簽名"},{"start":6625.543,"end":6651.975,"text":"那現在不行,要再打字,我說一概服從,再打出來,就是這張所以我在這裡有這個面貌就是說,在歐盟議員要求底下我把它打字出來,表示尊重但,副委員長當然要跑掉,奇怪,保鮮耶然後歐盟委員說沒有關係,副委員長跑掉了,必須副委員長"},{"start":6655.646,"end":6664.913,"text":"我同意,我們是要保健的,我們是要保健的那是私子的行為,公衛不准審,所以我當然通知他,這人喔"},{"start":6672.058,"end":6697.769,"text":"這樣要誠懇有一天我們都會從這個場域這樣離開的我認識他,他還沒當立委我都認識但是呢,不然怎樣?那他還是老朋友有一言者好可是我們是,你很奇怪,你以前人就很好隨便追國票也會害人,但是那是你的事情來國會又選委,我們安然地參加,你看他也親民黨的,又沒有黨的參加了,又不當議員,又變形了"},{"start":6701.19,"end":6711.139,"text":"這各位不遵從謝謝董事長,我們去交好,謝謝你我這也要寫,你去寫好的好的好,謝謝等一下,不要緊,謝謝掌握時間,謝謝董事長這段影響你沒有經過因為好多人要等你沒有關係反正今天Cowboy,大家好接下來"},{"start":6721.952,"end":6743.689,"text":"黃威就說這個不行,要分局委員說要黃國昌看過才可以好,你就來,我會去改不是總召我改一次我們先談警察的問題要改一次,又說不行,讓我們裁判忍耐總召,我跟妳報告,等一下那個壯士代妳再講壯士代等一下喔然後第五次,你怎麼說的?你怎麼說的?"},{"start":6747.359,"end":6773.824,"text":"你跟人家說是嗎?你跟人家說是嗎?沒有總長我建議說我們到第三案了你剛才就講說讓我講完什麼,你就持續弄,這全國直播你都講了第二段沒有關係,我講半個鐘他們可以講一個鐘頭,我都會忍耐那最後一次再來,好像捷運手人在刁難我們,我都忍下來那增加兩點,我們再改"},{"start":6774.985,"end":6778.272,"text":"我沒獎都請了你,等卡因秋雲都等了你,還未曬?"},{"start":6780.117,"end":6807.25,"text":"好,他躲在議場裡面,傅文綺就坐在另一邊,我把他照相起來要弄好的時候,王文維我說王文維你怎麼變成信差,送郵件的,跑來跑去幹什麼你是一個黨鞭,傅文綺自己來,傅文綺自己來是你們躲起來沒有人了嘛"},{"start":6808.228,"end":6822.616,"text":"所以分歧是一種,大家想想結商要做下來好好談然後分歧倒起來嘛,然後分歧要再啟示黃國昌柯總統那些都不要再說了我要把它講完,我再要把這個認識走,所以我留下來"},{"start":6832.06,"end":6849.935,"text":"因為何其可惜啊 一個大黨編 既然要看黃蕩蕩臉色啊加C加G加EST 都要加C啦 想說以後的這些不說 謝謝啦 最後剛才我把尋問過程還原出來然後呢 我知道國民黨會怎麼樣 都要嘛"},{"start":6851.354,"end":6869.486,"text":"十分鐘的事情也搞到四個鐘頭,一定說都是民進黨在亂,是你們來協商完成的我這樣早上料到這一行,所以開完會以後,我們黨團一排,除了我以外,全會開記者會,把還原事實真相否則黃國昌一定寫演出說民進黨在亂,這個都是他在協商的,問題就是這樣"},{"start":6873.689,"end":6890.663,"text":"你要搞這一套我都很清楚,所以全部人也瘋死,就說事實的呈現在這裡今天我這樣講的就是說,我們大家要協商的時候要協商,要有誠意我們終極目標就是要把立法院變成一個可以論證的地方,不是打架的地方"},{"start":6892.865,"end":6919.564,"text":"建立立法案 重塑立法案的新文化雖然被韓院長乃至於在柯文哲教的律師長還有藝術組組長亂講一通既然三途共同法案一個召委說不能送書就不能送書這是徹底違法我想監察院知道如何去彈劾好那以上就是說我謝了一百多次了柯總長謝謝"},{"start":6921.585,"end":6942.458,"text":"我跟妳講喔,多謝必有詐,多謝必有詐。你看我眼睛,我看妳眼睛就不想要再謝謝了。關起某些人間所哉,所以喔,我們黨也要想過的。謝謝柯總統,謝謝。黨中的誠意我必須接受,謝謝。"},{"start":6949.682,"end":6958.532,"text":"好,謝謝,根據黨團報告,現在國民黨團推派劉許廷維來索命,請問黨團有沒有意見?沒有,請劉許廷維,請發言好,謝謝主席"},{"start":6964.999,"end":6982.21,"text":"剛剛柯總召講了二十五分鐘這個當然是朝野協商主席當然會希望力求圓滿你可以講我身上的問題這個我們理解但本席要講的就是說我們還是希望回到議題的討論我只要五分鐘就好因為案子很多我們要提序主席我們也要兼顧立法院的議事效率這是我的建議"},{"start":6983.331,"end":7004.904,"text":"好 那今天就談警察人事條例的部分這當然就是談警察的退休金跟待遇的部分那麼在2024的6月13號在司法委員會做這個相關法案審查的詢答的時候其實我在質詢的時候就有詢問過警政跟消防署的署長這個警察跟警消啊 包含我們的海巡弟兄在內他在任職的工作上的性質是不是跟一般的公務員有所不同"},{"start":7005.584,"end":7020.596,"text":"那麼當初警政署的署長跟消防署的署長都直接坦率的承認確實不同怎麼樣說不同呢這個人事制度啊勞動條件勞動安全啊等等還有警消危勞早退等等的這些問題強度也不一樣"},{"start":7020.976,"end":7042.723,"text":"那更重要的還有行政程序法第19條第二項講行政機關執行勤務時得向無隸屬關係的其他機關請求協處很多很多的行政機關就用這一條來要求我們的警消弟兄跟同仁來協助各個機關所以各方各面來講警消也好海巡也好他在職務上的特殊性本來就跟一般的公務人員有所不同那麼談風險"},{"start":7043.843,"end":7068.402,"text":"最近7年的統計警察因公死亡65人因公受傷6037人全體軍公教因公死亡數229人警察就佔全體的28%我們如果把消防人員加計進去這個比例會更高警察的人數佔全國軍公教8%卻有高達28%的因公死亡比例這就表示這個職業的風險跟一般的公教確有不同"},{"start":7069.062,"end":7089.83,"text":"既然人事制度工作內容都製成體系有所不同當然有本質上的一個差異既然有本質上的差異卻使用相同的退休制度它其實是一個齊頭式的平等假平等會造成真不公因此我們去提案修正警察人事條例希望爭取更好的退休待遇的關鍵就是應該把它改成所謂立足點的一個平等"},{"start":7090.39,"end":7107.587,"text":"那麼內容上我們針對了這個最低所得替代率年增率跟最高所得替代率都做了調整這樣子的調整的原因是因為每一次討論年金改革的時候大家都把關鍵跟焦點放在最高替代率但是事實上景蕭海巡等等大部分是為了所得替代率"},{"start":7108.248,"end":7133.159,"text":"真的能夠達到所得替代率天花板的人並沒有那麼多所以我們這次版本的修正其實是調高年增率跟最低替代率的這樣最低所得替代率的這樣一個數字目標是為了照顧多一點點的基層人力他不見得有辦法扶持滿到40年或者是35、6年這樣子的一個高度但是也可以享有更好的退休待遇所以這樣子的一個版本修正過後不管是基層的、年輕的、資深的"},{"start":7134.079,"end":7160.009,"text":"也不只是已經退休的警消海巡人員包含代退的以及相對現在這個相對在職的未來都可以享有更好的退休待遇我們是希望可以站在不同工作的考量建立立足點平等的機制的角度來合理的修正這個警察人員條例希望讓好的退休待遇能夠鼓勵更多的人不管是服務久一點也好或者是勇於加入"},{"start":7160.529,"end":7177.666,"text":"警消海巡的行列成為打擊犯罪的英雄也好要有好的待遇才有留得住好的人才才能讓國家長治久安所以我們希望大家可以好好的支持這樣子的一個修法照顧退休的警消人員之外也照顧現職跟相對年輕的警消人員以上 謝謝"},{"start":7178.507,"end":7187.86,"text":"好 接下來請台灣民眾黨發言蔡宜瑜署長請準備稍微等一下 稍微等一下 稍微等一下先我講完 因為你講的話很久台灣民眾黨請發言幹事長 沒有"},{"start":7195.441,"end":7213.095,"text":"不要急嘛蔡書長發言完我要請全序部部長發言好不好這一定要這樣子那台灣民眾黨請不要被干擾謝謝主席謝謝謝謝太好了主席有規定大家就要遵守好我們今天我們關於就是警察人員的"},{"start":7214.095,"end":7217.678,"text":"條例 我們其他的背景我們就不講了 我們修法的建議第一 退休替代率的比照國軍所服務的年資計算滿15年替代率45%每增一年增加2% 最高90%"},{"start":7232.851,"end":7240.583,"text":"上限標準與國金一致 避免不公平的待遇新增退休的待遇規定 計算標準我們這邊是有退休警察待遇 因與現職同等級的人員掛鉤"},{"start":7249.035,"end":7269.02,"text":"隨心之調整 明定付表 增加退休的替代債率的對照表 保障 透明化我們修正的理由希望就是高風險需要高保障 還有景消海巡性的特殊工作比較高風險"},{"start":7270.76,"end":7276.485,"text":"希望提供因應的推修的保障第二以國軍一致性是參考國軍的模式確保公平與合理性第三回應現實的需求應對兩岸的緊張戰爭的風險等國安的挑戰我們希望修法能夠提升我們的警消海巡的保障就是"},{"start":7295.039,"end":7298.962,"text":"回應高風險的工作需求並以國金退休的那個制度要一致符合公平原則我們希望就是不要說千辛萬苦領的是一千兩千的千辛但是萬苦這樣子的話對我們的警校也好警察也好海巡也好是很不公平所以我們希望說要一致以上報告 謝謝"},{"start":7322.236,"end":7325.498,"text":"警消是高風險的工作但是跟軍職還是有本職上的不同軍人是24小時在營區基本上在營區的時候"},{"start":7343.251,"end":7370.803,"text":"在某種程度也是限制了他很多上的一些自由他的移動自由或者他的居住的自由所以君子當時在設計上用90%主要也是這樣還有君子他的服役期間相對是比較短比較短那也很容易讓君子他一旦沒有升上去基本上他就是退休讓很多君子的他的狀況就是說他的服役期間不長"},{"start":7372.463,"end":7397.43,"text":"但是他可能當到了少校、中校沒有機會再往上去就變得他被退休了退休如果所得替代率太低的話因為他的服役年限不夠所得替代率如果低的話基本上這件事情對君子是相對不公平的所以在君子當時的設計是基於這樣的關係所以本質上跟公務員就不一樣"},{"start":7398.03,"end":7427.575,"text":"好那我們回到公務員公務員的部分當然警消海巡他是屬於比較危險的工作那也是因為在危險的一個工作所以除了他有危險的家籍之外我們過去內政部我們警政署消防署也都有針對勤務這個勤務的家籍事實上也有很高事實上這樣的增加有一個重點就是說我們要讓在現值現在在福利"},{"start":7427.935,"end":7445.467,"text":"服務的公務員他們有更好的一個待遇因為他們想要留下來我們是希望好的人才繼續留在現職上繼續可以繼續做服務而不是說一直期待說他們退休然後領得好"},{"start":7446.147,"end":7468.718,"text":"當然退休領得好也是一個要件但是我們更期待的就是說他可以在工作崗位上好好的表現所以我們現在去把所得替代率貿然的提高不管是國民黨現在講80%還是剛剛我聽蔓玉珍是講90%那如果你要把它提高到這樣那馬上要面對一個可能就是大退休潮"},{"start":7470.459,"end":7478.882,"text":"可能就是很多現在我們縣執的這些警察人員或者是消防人員,他們就說我退休,我年齡90%我退休就不要給父母了那這樣是好的事情嗎?我們知道這幾年事實上很多警校不管在招生的時候因為少子化"},{"start":7490.746,"end":7514.439,"text":"基本上他們在招生已經有一個困難性那你現在如果因為這樣制度的改變然後又馬上面臨了一個大退休潮的話這樣一個制度的改變是好的嗎然後再者我要再去強調就是說如果我們抓80%如果抓80%那公教大概如果這樣的話大概是在"},{"start":7516.46,"end":7536.258,"text":"警監室的時候跟所謂公務員在實質等的一個狀況那如果以軍事觀就是上校的狀況變成說警察在這個階段退休的他領的如果以80%還沒有算到90%警察就領到大概8萬4那公教領6萬9軍職到了上校才領8萬2"},{"start":7543.605,"end":7549.278,"text":"就是當這一階大家去做一個比較事實上還是會有產生不公平"},{"start":7551.514,"end":7573.586,"text":"這個工作之間就不公平尤其你反映到君子的這一塊君子我們已經有拉了可是君子他的服役他的服役的一個時間點就是比較短你這樣逼高他會覺得你做到上校你做到上校結果你退休你領的八萬二比警監室退休以抓八十帕來說你還要更久"},{"start":7575.489,"end":7598.491,"text":"所以我也覺得在制度的設計上大家都希望說我們的公務員我們的警察他們有更好的一個待遇可是總之制度的設計我們必須思考的更加完善所以我還是主張說大家可以好好的去想我們應該讓現職的公務人員像現在我們現職的今年有加薪就退休的我們也是會把它調整"},{"start":7599.768,"end":7617.791,"text":"而且我們希望未來還可以用制度化的一個調整就是說退休的他後面隨著物價指數他也有在調整那不要去更動制度因為現在一更動制度的話你更動了警消那未來其他公務員呢"},{"start":7619.042,"end":7635.81,"text":"有沒有需要更動他們如果真的有來反應要更動好那就回到我剛剛講的君子的部分同樣一個位階的時候領的比較少那君子是比較比較不辛苦嗎他們也是很辛苦啊"},{"start":7637.027,"end":7658.588,"text":"這是第一個 還有第二個我覺得因為剛剛我們總召用了很多的時間在還原一些事情事實上我也想跟院長建議啦所以院長你主持協商我希望是一個有效的協商就是比如說在剛剛在處理這個觀光發展條例的時候我們提案的網美會委員有提出一個意見希望可以把罰則提高"},{"start":7659.369,"end":7686.257,"text":"他有發言 對 他有發言他講的這一個 他也無關立場他只是說 為了讓未來的觀光業者他們應該要警惕 不可以說人家出事了錢都收了 這人家丟包所以你過去發了心情 沒感覺他希望大家加工可是院長你後來也沒有針對他發言後再看下說大家能不能就這個條文是否可以接受提案人的想法"},{"start":7688.313,"end":7704.642,"text":"院長你只是讓我們這樣亂的講完然後你就說休息我是覺得說這樣的協商變成說我們在這裡只是在跑形式我實在覺得做不出來我們現在說的我們都可以就事認識如果是條文本身有沒有調整的空間"},{"start":7705.803,"end":7717.051,"text":"我覺得院長你可以協助我們至少大家橫屏抓個調整空間如果真的講的都是各說各話國民黨講國民黨講民眾黨講民眾黨你覺得沒有空間那你當然說好那這一條我們就留待院會處理可是剛剛如果說53條之一我們也會講有什麼不對為什麼不嘗試的處理看看"},{"start":7730.982,"end":7756.675,"text":"所以我也覺得說,院長在協商的時候,我們讓他這個協商更有效能啦我們不是只要協商過年,我們這個協商要有作用啦,好不好?謝謝蔡宇書記長,謝謝你,我簡單回覆一下蔡宇書記長的意思就是說,不要為協商而協商最後好像感覺只是一個過場其實我很希望能夠達成共識我連剛才達成共識的文稿都寫好了"},{"start":7757.395,"end":7779.662,"text":"可是實在上各位剛才的發言不要說情緒跟氣氛之外連內容都沒有辦法使得我不得不在今天八個議案裡面我要做一些時間上跟這個決策上的處理否則我們就完全沒有效率了我們第一個案就討論快一個半小時了現在第二案又是快一個多小時了我們後面還有六個案在等"},{"start":7780.222,"end":7808.121,"text":"所以我要跟蔡宇书长讲我的想法跟你一样我很希望大家能够跟行政部门一起能讨论出来达成共识真的不行那只能送院会那是不得已的手段我很不喜欢用这个手段而且你看我每次用我都很为难就说这个案子我们就留在院会我都不太愿意讲这个话我特别跟你报告跟大家报告一下接下来我们请全序部的我们部长请您表达您的意见非常重要请"},{"start":7809.668,"end":7835.19,"text":"主席 各位委員謝謝主席在這個表定明天要表決之前讓主管機關之一全區部有機會在這裡跟大家就事實跟數據跟大家做一個充分的一個說明我想這個案子大概經過委員會的一讀會還有後面的一個協商的過程本部的立場曾經兩度提出書面意見也都表示不贊成這個修法"},{"start":7835.931,"end":7864.438,"text":"那這個修法事實上影響的不僅僅是牽涉現職跟已退的警察人員其實它更會影響到人數超過警職人員大概五倍多的廣大的現職跟已退休的其他公務人員跟教育人員那這個案子不僅僅是牽涉退府基金的財務問題政府支出的問題其實對全部 全區部來講更重要它是牽涉到"},{"start":7866.035,"end":7888.776,"text":"非常嚴重將產生整個退府制度會對有不公平問題產生的憲法平等原則這個案子其實大家都知道現在我們用的大概理由有兩個一個是說因為限職為老所以因此退休所得替代要增高一個是因為軍人有90%所以要比照90%"},{"start":7890.441,"end":7909.253,"text":"那部裡面很負責任跟大家分析這兩個意見其實我們都不認為是應該要支持我簡單的說第一個限職工作危老剛剛有聞一條我們在限職的待遇跟福利制度上都已經有特別的對待那退休就沒有危老的事實所以限職危老是不是適合用來延伸說退休還要再做危老這個其實是一個邏輯的問題"},{"start":7917.967,"end":7945.507,"text":"第二個軍人的工作跟警察的工作當然都是微老但是這兩者呢事實上還是有一點點不太一樣那包括剛剛有提到軍人的服役特性其實跟警察是不一樣的所以兩個也不適合呢完全來做比照那這個法一旦通過以後其實很簡單講就創造一個很大的差距以80%的35年年資這個版本來看"},{"start":7946.67,"end":7968.017,"text":"不管是未來要退休的或者已退休的因為這個法包括要把已退休要重新回來算大概來就會有80%馬上就變80%那其他的公務人員呢一直按照我們的這個降降降到118年會是60%所以就是產生20%的差距那這20%差距是所得替代率"},{"start":7968.905,"end":7986.662,"text":"可是最重要還是要回到到底錢差多少我想我先大概就這樣一個說明那以下我大概就分幾個面向很快的跟大家報告部裡面的看法第一個面向是這個法如果通過它絕對是對退府制度公平性產生最嚴重的影響"},{"start":7987.984,"end":8005.496,"text":"在退伏制度裡面最在意的本部最在意的是公平性這公平性意思是說大家同樣參與這個基金那大家繳一樣的錢根據相同標準去繳錢也繳一樣的費率那怎麼會說有一警察人員退休的時候他給付"},{"start":8006.437,"end":8026.103,"text":"就要比一般的公務員高除非警察人員自己制成一套體系重新計算過他所有就像軍人一樣有自己一套基金可是目前不是 以前也不是所以現在硬拉成90% 80%這個真的是嚴重的破壞整個退府制度跟退府制度最在意的"},{"start":8026.743,"end":8048.157,"text":"要平等對待所有的參與者這是一個憲法平等原則的一個問題本部最在意這個事情我覺得這是一個第一個面向那第二個面向我跟大家報告說真的80%以後他會創造出一個幾乎所有文官沒有辦法接受退休所得的差距這退休所得差距就是讀後呢緊職工作到難以想像"},{"start":8049.4,"end":8067.115,"text":"我用一個數字跟大家報告因為大部分的警察人員退休的時候就基層員警大概都會到525的縫點大概占八成那這個代表就基層的警察啦這525的縫點呢根據現在這個修法他們月退休所得的上限我們估算過如果用113年就去年大概月退休所的上限會是74544塊那如果今年"},{"start":8078.291,"end":8103.653,"text":"再調薪因為他會這樣去算就會增加到七萬六千七百八十塊這個數字大概還比常務次長、司處長都還高一點點更何況十一職等以下的所有公務員員都比他低所有高中以下的老師都比他低大學裡面的教授也比他低"},{"start":8105.114,"end":8127.865,"text":"我想這是一個用事實算出來的一個數據那包括我們在地方政府服務的所有的同仁因為我們地方政府的職等很少超過12職等的也都不會比他高那更何況呢同樣有其他危老的同仁譬如說監守管理員醫務人員他就適用其他的公務人員制度他不會像警察一樣"},{"start":8129.509,"end":8152.018,"text":"這個法律不會處理這些事情我們還有很多譬如像說你從事保護性社工各式各樣的通通是用一般公務人員的概念他不會處理這個事情所以我只是跟各位報告就是說這一個根據這個80%的一個算最上限的算法他真的會衝擊所有的台灣的公務人員文官的信念就怎麼會是"},{"start":8153.427,"end":8173.407,"text":"退休所的差距竟然會到這麼大20%代表這是一個數字的轉過來是一個數字的問題那事實上目前我們講現況現況的大概是八成左右的基層員就是525的鳳兒退休的人其實他拿的相當於就是公務人員八指等的"},{"start":8175.327,"end":8196.378,"text":"那個薪水那這樣轉換過來呢他的退休金都是一樣因為我們要比較不一樣嘛所以那個退休所得上大家都一樣所以兩個本來就差了大概快八千塊也就是說525奉典的比八子等人大概就差了八千塊用現在的這個數字去算那所以呢即使都不調整假設大家都不調這個法"},{"start":8198.384,"end":8210.996,"text":"2024年所有的警職人員平均大概95%以上大概實質的退休所得大概是5萬塊以上以去年新退休的大概是5.9萬"},{"start":8213.308,"end":8232.904,"text":"那我是跟他報告講是說這樣一個數字如果根據剛剛在調整假設退休再調整那你可以想像未來一個退休警察人員基層的退休警察我不是講那個更高階的警官大概年所得的上限很可能會到92萬元大家理解90萬已經超過我們的退休金的免稅所得的今年發布的86萬元"},{"start":8240.717,"end":8258.816,"text":"那他還比民間的薪資不管是月薪資或者是經常薪資都還高我這把這個事我這除非必須要很負責任跟各位報告這些數據那第三個面向是他真的也會衝擊警力的穩定性為什麼因為根據這個新的制度算出來七萬多塊這個事情他就相當於限制的"},{"start":8264.403,"end":8275.074,"text":"525就警政事階月薪我這月薪是指他的用他的525奉典加專業家籍再加警勤家籍大概這樣等於大概九成那想想看我如果退休的時候可以拿九成"},{"start":8281.181,"end":8306.03,"text":"我這個對警力的衝擊會有維持會有周圍通道我想這是也是大家去思考一個問題第四個我要講限職的工作危險確實絕對是危險可是我們在現在的退府制度上跟限職待遇上都對警察人有特別的對待譬如說限職的退府制度警察人員的自願退休的那個那個稅數還有他可以啟資月退休的稅數都"},{"start":8307.421,"end":8319.736,"text":"比公務員早可以大概找到法律上可以容許到10歲但是每個人的狀況不太一樣啦那可能在10歲以下可以可是這不是公務員有的那縣子的待遇裡面呢我們也了解呢其實"},{"start":8322.474,"end":8348.517,"text":"這個部分是人總管的通常我們大概知道是現況的一個狀況平均警察的月所得大概是公務員的多出10%那如果最高的那個警員以下的那個比例是更高我們必須坦白跟大家這樣一個保限值那更何況警察福利大概公務員員有些是沒有警察是有的那回過頭來說警察危老限職工作危老當然是危老"},{"start":8349.468,"end":8372.661,"text":"那危老以後是不是一定要退休以後再給他一個特別對待因為他已經退休就沒有危老的事實了那會不會因為他在在職的時候有危老健康會比較大高風險所以我們應該給他特別對待可事實上也不是這樣子根據警政署自己發布的資料警察人員退休警察人員平均死亡年齡大概2022年的時候是77.93歲"},{"start":8374.793,"end":8400.254,"text":"就跟國人20歲以上沒有什麼太大差別跟一般的公務員沒有什麼太大差別也就是說退休以後健康平均狀況是沒有什麼太大差別所以這個是非常就是77.93歲所以我只是把這些事實跟各位做一個報告最後第五個面向警職是不是跟君職適合比"},{"start":8401.565,"end":8410.932,"text":"我想院長也在君子待過那個工作情境狀況我就不說可是必須坦白這樣講我們的警職的月薪就相對於君子的那個對應來講是高於君子的你去看一個上位拿到錢可能不見得比525的還要高那接下來警職呢君子又一級短"},{"start":8430.987,"end":8458.255,"text":"因為很少君子可以超過30年的啦因為他有最大服役年限不升上去就要被強迫退休嘛那警職平均基層的警察大概最近這幾年以前也差不多大概都已經快接近到可以服役到35年的年資所以結論是這樣子如果你把一個基層我還是講525那個最多人對照理論上他應該對照君子的可能是一個上位或少校"},{"start":8460.062,"end":8488.209,"text":"那事實上結論是什麼他拿的錢是比那個君子高的蠻多的那我想這裡我就不做敘述我想這個君子的一個薪水我覺得我不想在這裡談這樣一個議題那第六個最後結論這個最後我才談到對基金的影響那當然因為你提高以後一定會對大家使用同一套基金那有基金用慶的年度"},{"start":8489.619,"end":8509.094,"text":"根據精算他就會提早兩年那這兩年怎麼產生的因為用五十年來精算一方面我們本來年改的時候只要是節省了錢譬如像說總的替代率下降因為你優存減少了救治減少這個錢我們都回撥給這個基金預注那五十年裡面就大概少了大概1093億元"},{"start":8512.588,"end":8535.968,"text":"那可是接下來還有另外一個因為你所得替代增加了所以那個基金新制的人事實上錢就要增加比以前更加那這個大概有六百六十八億元所以加起來大概一千七百億你可以講說這大概是五十年看起來好像不是很大五十年基礎可是他確實是對基金來講就是提早兩年那其他人呢要幫忙負擔這個事情那缺口怎麼辦那現在修法的缺口是由政府來撥補"},{"start":8540.779,"end":8551.85,"text":"那政府來做不懂這涉及到預算法因為畢竟這不是行政部門的提案我想這是另外一個story可是這個修法裡面也沒有談說那個一千億到底怎麼辦因為修法談得上六百多億那麼一千億如果"},{"start":8559.537,"end":8581.44,"text":"幾乎都是要政府支出啦因為那是優存減少跟這個救治本來就各級政府要負擔這個事情所以這個部分法律也沒有談這個事情那最後一點呢退孫所得真的不應該跟限職人員的待遇調整而調整這是幾乎大部分主要國家的同理為什麼因為限職人員"},{"start":8582.501,"end":8598.779,"text":"薪水要不要調整有很多很多的因素不應該只有考慮呢譬如像說CPI因為退休人員本來最重要是要維持他的實質購買利益不要減少太多所以我們現在本來就有一個機制5%我們就會調整他的一個退休所得"},{"start":8599.359,"end":8622.326,"text":"這是世界上幾乎大部分的退休制度都會走一個方式可是限職人員不應該只考慮CPI我可能因為工作辛苦表現好什麼政府本來就有一些其他考量因素不會只用CPI所以不應該把這兩個掛在一起這個修法也談到這個我們認為維持限制還是應該比較正確的方式因為限職的公務人員就是這樣走的"},{"start":8623.644,"end":8645.398,"text":"我想我以上大概把部裡面的意見做一個很充分的說明我想也謝謝主席給我比較長的時間來談這件事最後我要知道說依照黨團的協商決議這個案子明天就是要表決所以讓我再做一點點感性的陳述今年的520我是第三次進到政府部門服務"},{"start":8646.621,"end":8669.487,"text":"我想我對台灣的文官制度跟政府的體系各式各樣的我大概有相當程度的了解在我擔任前一個工作人事長任內我想我大概是歷任人事長裡面對限職警察人員的待遇跟福利最支持的一個人事長那我現在轉到全區部來了那這個涉及的不是限職人員是退休"},{"start":8670.529,"end":8693.516,"text":"那我覺得退休的部分我就必須非常非常精準講全區部主管的是退休法律制度跟基金我必須要對所有的公務人員負有守護每一個公務人員在這個基金裡面被平等對待的憲法的平等的一個責任也因此我必須今天謝謝有這個機會讓我很清楚的說明這個法按照這個方式通過"},{"start":8694.994,"end":8716.173,"text":"它有很嚴重很嚴重的後果不然我就是對不起所有全體的公務人員不是只有警察人員因為大家都是一個文官體系的一個人今天呢如果我剛剛提過其他有比警察人員超過人數超過五倍的已經退休或者是現職的公務人員跟教育人員他們如果也學這一套"},{"start":8718.205,"end":8728.332,"text":"還好他們大部分我們的公務員不太會做這樣一個事情他們如果說我們來說服立委然後幫我們提案對全區委員即使他說他增加1%就是單獨調到1%部裡面立場都不會贊成"},{"start":8734.076,"end":8749.544,"text":"因為這就是違反一個退府制度最需要的大家平等對待的一個原則那我想我520在進來以後之前呢大院的委員們經常告訴我們說行政部門你們在做決策的時候不要用政治凌駕於專業"},{"start":8751.055,"end":8774.402,"text":"那我想部裡面非常非常遵守這個原則那我今天提出我們部裡面的專業的意見那最後我還是要講一次修法所持的兩個理由就是說因為危老或者應該比照軍人所以呢這兩個理由部裡面的分析結果我認為實在是沒有辦法支持因為這兩個理由不足以支持再給退休給付這個部分"},{"start":8775.602,"end":8799.551,"text":"這麼高的一個特別的對待修法結果就會破壞憲法的平等原則最後我想談一個這個法我知道明天如果通過會碰到一個問題就是我們必須要開始做後續的行政作業程序這個行政作業程序是我要重新審核三萬多人的退休警察的退休金那本部只有一個科"},{"start":8801.708,"end":8830.034,"text":"大家知道我們中央政府一個科可能不到四個人所以它需要一段的作業時間那我們會比較建議事實上今天也大概跟內政部的同仁有交換過這個意見這個事情因為我們修的是警察人員人事條例所以這後續的工作我們會建議是由內政部來接受就是說那個審核的事情我們一定會提供很多一個協助謝謝只是最後還要提醒一個事情謝謝"},{"start":8830.714,"end":8853.941,"text":"因為根據法律重新計算的標準是要限職的待遇限職的待遇就是我們現在是114年了那所以今年又有一個調薪案呢還不確定如果今年調薪案是確定的話那這一定要等調薪案以後呢通過我們才能夠往下走這個計算我想跟各位報告好謝謝你老師"},{"start":8860.868,"end":8877.495,"text":"好 謝謝講了才有道理沒有問題我們到行政部門發言一下不要急我們行政部門來了沒關係沒關係 王委員謝謝你等一下請聽我講話好不好你請我要人事處書人事長請書人事長請"},{"start":8889.116,"end":8907.29,"text":"不好意思請把時間掌握院長各位委員大家午安我想我的立場跟前區部司部長的立場都一樣因為我們必須要顧慮到一個很重要的絕對公平跟相對公平的問題一個制度好不容易建議剛才大家有提到危老的問題這是事實"},{"start":8909.432,"end":8922.607,"text":"所以過去這幾年從市部長任內一直到我這裡我們對警察人員的這些相關能力、大義我們都給予相當的支持我想這是一個事實大家可以去打聽然後"},{"start":8924.629,"end":8941.041,"text":"圍繞的事情是他任內當他退休的時候應該就沒有圍繞這個議題所以我們在退休的大意方面坦白講剛才市部長也講得很清楚如果調到80%的時候的替代率他的"},{"start":8941.701,"end":8967.146,"text":"戴毅甚至會跟我們常任文官的常務次長一樣這樣對大部分的常任文官我覺得是一種士氣的打擊整個國家的努力進步應該警察扮演很重要的角色金人也很重要可是大家不要忽略掉大部分公務人員大家默默的在為這個國家努力不能抹煞他們的努力這一點大家都沒有去把那個"},{"start":8968.486,"end":8990.272,"text":"實際的情況讓大家知道我今天有這個責任我必須要利用這個場合感謝所有公務人員過去幾十年來默默的為國家努力所以不能讓他們感覺相對的不公平那警察部分拉上來剛才大家也論述過了驚人的服役時間短無形中"},{"start":8991.272,"end":9020.221,"text":"我第一陣子在修建的結果警察他們也很辛勞結果他們退休裡面因為他的年資比較長所以他領的退休碰跟金人的部分又拉上來就變成製造另外一種不公平我覺得好不容易一個安定的一個情況我必須要幫所有默默為國家努力的公務人員講這一句話而且這裡面還有剛才大家提到的我要保守勒我在"},{"start":9021.652,"end":9034.777,"text":"監守這些介護人力我這個空勤總隊我還有很多默默在為國家執行公權力的過程中他們有風險的這些人難道他們沒有風險嗎?還是有啊?好 謝謝"},{"start":9040.75,"end":9049.837,"text":"謝謝各位剛剛所提到的部分內政部站在警察人員人事條例裡面的主要的這個主管機關的立場我們大概有幾點要跟各位委員來報告第一個呢我們現在要照顧的是以現在在服勤的這個警察人員為主"},{"start":9058.363,"end":9076.118,"text":"所以有關退休的退府事項的話呢根據我們的這個憲法增修條文那是全序部的執掌那剛剛全序部長已經跟大家說明過那我想我們站在現在內政部主管有關於限職的警消的部分呢包括這個提高警勤加急啦等等這些有15項我們在歷次的協商裡面呢"},{"start":9078.18,"end":9091.204,"text":"已經跟大家報告過我就不再贅述但是我們知道會產生的問題就是說警察人員退休所得替代率如果修高變成是不管是90%或是80%的時候確實會產生人員結構跟不同世代上面的差異我先從退職人數的部分跟大家報告一下現在我手頭上的資料就是現職的警察人數是68,120人"},{"start":9107.188,"end":9124.341,"text":"那如果未來按照這個剛剛我們才拿到不好意思所以這個有關數據只能是個大約數就是在36年以上的所得替代比率的話我們大概馬上去算出來目前的這個要領到80%以上的人數是74747人"},{"start":9133.768,"end":9154.503,"text":"那再來就是說我想在座有相當多的曾經擔任過縣市議會的議員都知道在哪裡退休就在那個地方的縣市政府領退休金所以我們也去稍微很快去調出來譬如說以去年3月份來看中央跟地方警察"},{"start":9156.924,"end":9173.057,"text":"從中央裡面領退休金的警察人數是7千多那我們中央要付出的退休金額救治的退休金額是3億8千多萬那如果在地方的話呢退休人數大約是3倍到4倍有2萬3千多總共要領的是12億多"},{"start":9175.299,"end":9194.051,"text":"那如果未來按照這樣提升到80%的時候呢不只是衝擊到中央政府的預算地方政府的預算也會有影響到只是我們沒有細算這跟大家報告的部分然後再來我所報告的部分就是說限職的警察的總數是68120的狀況之下"},{"start":9196.613,"end":9199.794,"text":"40歲以下的警察所佔的比率是35,122人是51.6%也就是說現在的警察不管因為少子化或是為了警勤制度跟著改換的狀況之下他們要參加所謂的退休警察這些制度裡面所納的這個金額"},{"start":9217.381,"end":9235.843,"text":"跟現在要退休警察越來越多的狀況之下恐怕會產生財務上面的結構的問題而且有世代差距剛剛那個權序部的這個部長有特別提到就是如果退休所得替代率往上調整的時候會造成員警退休跟現職的興奉差異縮小"},{"start":9237.825,"end":9249.699,"text":"那這個部分一定會造成另外一個短期內會有大幅離退因為他會覺得說他離退以後所領的薪水跟現在很辛苦在從事正職工作的時候差別不大那這個真的會衝擊到我們社會維持治安的穩定度的問題只是我們沒有做細算"},{"start":9257.008,"end":9278.139,"text":"只是沒有做細算那以上我所提的這幾個案例呢大概就是以這個權序部或者剛剛人事行政總署所提到的第一個中央地方政府的領退休金的人數還有領退休金的這個金額也必須要按照中央政府跟地方政府的分配的比例來做考量第二個限職警察的人數"},{"start":9280.114,"end":9308.934,"text":"比35年以上拿到80%的退休人數74747比起來還少了將近1萬多人所以這樣的財務結構未來可能會更惡化只是我們現在沒有精算因為對不起剛剛我才拿到這個這個兩個檔的這個一個附件那以上的這樣的報告我們還是一樣第一個我們還是仍然要積極照顧現職的警察包括他們有危老家籍或者繁重家籍的部分我想各位都非常理解"},{"start":9309.534,"end":9337.353,"text":"那還是一樣我們在不管是行政單位或是軍公教或是警察我們都一體我們希望退府事項呢還是按照限定職長由考試院來負責那我們會全力配合以上簡單報告好謝謝內政部劉部長各位謝謝各位行政官員的練習各位黨團幹部我們剛才發言的次序啊第一輪已經發言完畢了第一輪是國民黨長講的沒有你又講了你一開始就講了二十一二十三分鐘那個是你講的"},{"start":9339.374,"end":9363.205,"text":"麥玉珍委 劉許廷委員講了七分鐘麥玉珍委員大概講了六分鐘 都講完了各部會書也都講完了後來民進黨又多了一個蔡宇書長又講了所以我知道我要跟各位黨團幹部來報告一下交換意見尤其剛剛蔡宇點了一下我穴道 我的壓力很大不要說討論 我還要為協商而協商我不是這個意思我們今天總共有八個案"},{"start":9363.925,"end":9379.188,"text":"我們現在才進入第二個啊所以我想跟各位黨團幹部來溝通一下我們就是發展觀光條例跟警察人員人事條例我們保留的部分我們就依照共識我們在上星期五之前我們進行全面的程序"},{"start":9380.009,"end":9402.59,"text":"那我們就,沒有,聽我說完嘛,看大家意見,那我們現在依照我們黨團都說,我們要準備進行壯士代協商等一下,等一下,董事長我講一下沒關係,這樣好不好,如果沒關係,那我再提個另外一個好不好各黨團在推派一位代表,每一位代表三分鐘沒有這個事情那你這樣我,我們這個案子後面講那就結束啦,我們到第三案了來,等一下等一下,院長"},{"start":9404.831,"end":9420.656,"text":"部會首長都已經發三輪了,然後也超過三十分鐘以上等一下,所謂協商是部會首長,將來的表決是我們的沒有,都已經講完了你不是說要好好的來談嗎?我已經談過了,你們都兩個人談,我們才一個人談你快用一個小時,我們只用五分鐘、七分鐘"},{"start":9429.918,"end":9444.22,"text":"完全是不對等了也完全是不平衡了所以第二案已經有充分討論你講一個小時還沒有充分討論要講幾個小時才有充分討論我剛剛講半個鐘你是不是說你要跟我變成半個鐘我在等待啊"},{"start":9446.242,"end":9462.906,"text":"好啊 你要講我就繼續講啊我剛才說啦你講我就繼續講啊那我講了你再講啊我不要你講我就要繼續講啊不是啊 你不尊重我剛才已經講你看我剛才多尊重你我說你尊重院長我尊重你你不尊重我就不尊重你好 如果想我們就繼續講啊你不想讓我講嗎對不對你 你要讓我講就讓我講啊你不尊重我當然沒有辦法"},{"start":9475.19,"end":9491.223,"text":"你剛才講那麼久,我通通尊重你,我完全沒有插話啊我沒有把自己講起來啊院長,那為什麼你不能講啊?真的啊,我原本為了趙薇恩講一下話好不好那警察人員重要的一件事,我完全沒有插話啊他一直只有聽你們說,我們都做不了這件事啊我們只有牛雪恬,用了五分鐘,你們用了一個小時"},{"start":9500.111,"end":9507.44,"text":"我們為什麼要一直讓你們講沒有發言我們為什麼要一直讓你們講沒有發言我們為什麼要一直讓你們講沒有發言我們為什麼要一直讓你們講沒有發言"},{"start":9536.794,"end":9545.661,"text":"現在各列席的官員都在這裡,如果大家繼續這樣,我想官員看了我們委員之間比較激烈一點"},{"start":9547.842,"end":9570.859,"text":"各位官員可以先離席了好不好有問題的官員要回答,有問題的官員要回答,有問題的官員先走了協商沒結論,協商沒結論要問官員啊,我們要跟官員對話啊院長這一個重要的議案要跟官員對話我們有很多要垂詢官員的"},{"start":9574.786,"end":9579.614,"text":"協商就是要大家能夠好好對話聚焦啊我要去拍主席的桌子"},{"start":9586.086,"end":9607.679,"text":"不要去拍主席的桌子柯創造你要有點榜樣啊那王逸川都學壞了你好好轉叫王逸川啦好好轉叫王逸川啦沒你的事啦吳思揚你閉嘴你一直在誇別人的話趕快去好好轉叫王逸川不要讓他學壞了啦"},{"start":9611.24,"end":9629.254,"text":"何其可悲啊,不敢講話,你講不是道理的啊等一下!我們都還沒有發言,要好好討論我會先發言,你也要講,隨便你我在你後面發言好了我尊重大家,我不會像你這樣不尊重別人啊講那麼久,講一個小時都還講不夠重點"},{"start":9631.235,"end":9660.655,"text":"那大家還要被迫一直聽你講話你講一個小時都講不到重點柯總長你可不可以學習一下三分鐘內把重點把重點講出來為什麼劉許廷可以麥玉珍可以羅鋒威可以我們三分鐘講重點你三分鐘講得老套你到現在的發言都不是針對條文啊你到現在的發言都沒有針對條文你都是針對柯總長你完全沒有針對條文發言劉許廷不要走這博士不要走"},{"start":9662.196,"end":9682.271,"text":"說事 說事 說事問證表現不錯 你不要走 我都要真的有問題你要回答問證表現 三分鐘都可以講得很清楚啊 對不對我們不要這樣沒有效率嘛 好不好三分鐘可以講完的話就不要把事情干擾了啦影響的層面很大 大家是要充分討論 不是這樣過水啦"},{"start":9686.033,"end":9706.025,"text":"都已經充分討論了啊你都講二輪還不夠你講二輪還不夠嗎這是說上一次年改的法案上一次年改的法案協商了五天我們雙方都講了就沒有辦法成功協商了四位兄弟你在司法法治委員會充分討論你就知道了嘛你在司法法治啊"},{"start":9706.745,"end":9723.31,"text":"今天的討論其實很充分啦你們講多久了你們還是沒有打討論所以這沒有公示我們就去表決啦好不好你們就只會表決只會過水我對於警察員員人士條例我都還沒有發言到我也沒有發言啊對啊那我沒有發言啊"},{"start":9727.931,"end":9742.141,"text":"我們也要發言啊我們要淋漓彼此的觀點啊我們也要發言啊 奇怪啦所以就是繼續發言繼續討論啊他們可以講繼續討論啊繼續發言繼續討論啊你們那個是假效率啦你們是假的效率啦只是為了過水只是為了過水我做上一次的年改法案光朝野協商就五次"},{"start":9755.39,"end":9764.936,"text":"年改和其重大世代的對立世代的不正義公務人員之間的不公平不需要值得討論嗎大家討論得非常清楚就是沒有辦法達成共識講都沒有辦法達成共識你講A我講BA跟B就沒有形成C又沒有辦法達成共識沒有辦法對話就已經沒有辦法共識了我們還有很多案子還有很多案子"},{"start":9786.07,"end":9787.051,"text":"好好討論,好好對話,對不對?年改姿勢體大"},{"start":9832.086,"end":9841.394,"text":"欸 你以為我們不能講啊 你們已經講兩輪了你們還要講第三輪 不讓人家講話 也這麼霸道嗎你們可以講兩輪 我本來就可以講啊那就再來講嘛 那我們就二輪發言 就三輪發言嘛"},{"start":9853.136,"end":9857.34,"text":"這麼重要的一個制度改革難道不應該每個人都發言嗎聽不懂你在講什麼講的又講不清楚對不對待會我就會來告訴你我的重點啦我重點清楚就好了啦等一下可以讓你講一小時"},{"start":9870.288,"end":9878.836,"text":"你們想要拖延對不對我們非常有效率啦人家牛許廷問政第一名需要講到30分鐘講不清楚嗎3分鐘講到重點對不對學人家一下牛許廷剛剛講了7分鐘喔他不是講3分鐘喔對不對"},{"start":9886.423,"end":9891.169,"text":"人家一個新的 新的委員連所得替代率五個字都講錯 這個叫做問政低迷我至少沒有什麼歲計騰餘喔還歲計騰餘咧 對不對蛤 你要講人身攻擊 大家一起來攻擊喔"},{"start":9903.264,"end":9909.428,"text":"還有在那邊胡說八道我直接問部長請問一下我們有講說我們的這個居公車調薪不確定嗎你為什麼講不確定你今天去跟外面講不確定嗎我們在這邊報假消息現在已經一月了行政部門跟著一起報假消息好 鍾佳斌 吳子瑤請問一下從去年的時候除了去年參讀在12月底之外哪一年在12月底以前通過你告訴我所以你打算什麼時候通過"},{"start":9933.044,"end":9940.691,"text":"沒有我們隨時可以通過啊你們現在搞一個復議案誰在擋預算你們在擋預算啊我們正在審啊我們每一個招委會面招委還沒審訊啊哪一個招委會面是擋預算"},{"start":9952.342,"end":9960.065,"text":"副立案 你們自己認為中央立案 浪費我們的時間所以是你們在擋預算而且 等一下 鍾小平不要回避我的問題除了去年之外 柳毅仁的預算在12月底前 你告訴我"},{"start":9975.07,"end":9980.036,"text":"是誰讓總預算現在還繼續在審?吳思瑤你告訴我啊你也是資深的委員啊資深委員告訴我啊現在我們都在睡覺"},{"start":9994.831,"end":10008.58,"text":"還沒審完預算那我們其他的委員我們其他召委沒有在審預算你又不是召委說人家沒有審預算啊我在打預算我跟你講事實啊我在浪費我們的時間啊"},{"start":10014.723,"end":10020.907,"text":"民進黨在擋預算啦民進黨在擋預算啦我們都很認真的在擋預算奇怪了妳在浪費我們的時間啊妳才浪費一定的時間妳才浪費一定的時間妳才浪費一定的時間妳才浪費一定的時間"},{"start":10044.343,"end":10048.146,"text":"王委員我跟你說明我們過去歷年12月30號之前各委員會的委員會預算案都審訊"},{"start":10071.405,"end":10083.189,"text":"那麼去年到今年為止呢 塗塗國民黨司法法制委員會的召委吳宗憲還沒審訊我告訴你 過去歷年委員會的階段通通審訊不要跟我講委員會 我問你啊 我們整個院會三途通過什麼時間嘛你今天我們的公務人員也要等到三途通過"},{"start":10092.412,"end":10105.987,"text":"然後去公告實施嘛對不對每天都在咒搖林柱英咒搖然後今天部長也可以講這樣的話這不是就欺騙社會大眾嗎蛤你們今天是好好討論嗎還是來這邊欺騙社會大眾呢對不對"},{"start":10111.306,"end":10119.793,"text":"黃宏輝火氣不要那麼大啦火氣不要那麼大啦現在要接書記長了火氣好大喔市民的火氣都沒有這麼大市民當書記長火氣都沒那麼大你接書記長為什麼火氣這麼大市民氣度好啦你氣度不好喔我氣度不好喔"},{"start":10135.287,"end":10157.323,"text":"我會接受機會我可以講嗎讓你們一直在那邊露露腸我在那邊聽你們的聽訊啊莫名其妙你們講話特別好聽嗎講一堆廢話還浪費我的時間三十分鐘都講不完三分鐘可以講完的話再講三十分鐘現在都自己在講話你不想聽你可以到外面走一走啊我們要講啊到外面走一走啊我們要講啊重要法案啊"},{"start":10195.575,"end":10212.934,"text":"好啦現在在場因為提醒大家不管您是列席機關代表還是參與協商的委員現在韓院長回來了不曉得什麼時候開始因為我每次來啊都沒有機會講到話我們事發法是聯席主持跟內政聯席主持本草案的條例我主席都來了您就好那我就停了好不好那你又要讓我講了齁"},{"start":10218.9,"end":10234.478,"text":"各位黨內幹部請坐我想這兩個案子,我們送院會,第二案我們就一樣院長,我們都講好明天會進行表決,今天這個案送,你敢送到案子?"},{"start":10235.259,"end":10247.038,"text":"我們都還沒講,然後你要叫官員離席這成為體統了,那國民黨只有牛啟寧可以講而已,我希望王文威先講沒有關係王文威你講半個鐘頭,你講一個鐘頭,我講半個鐘頭"},{"start":10252.384,"end":10278.181,"text":"我講三分鐘,你講三分鐘你要講三分鐘是你的事情那個...曹偉鄉還在限制你什麼時間啊沒有,柯守昭我要澄清一下,我不是不尊重官員,反而我是非常尊重官員因為他們已經把議題都講完了,也表達了他講完我們講不很滿意,他要回答,我們可以結論他我也結論他,他可以回答因為我要進入第三案了,我才請官員...沒有...曹偉鄉不是你要進入第幾案就第幾案不是這本案..."},{"start":10282.946,"end":10303.382,"text":"我要澄清一下,希望你不要誤解我,尊重官員,我才會剛才...尊重官員就是讓官員留下來我知道,我知道,您先不要再...現在如果說下一輪要繼續發言的話,現在民進黨有三位委員都舉手了柯總召、吳世耀幹事長、然後鍾嘉斌召集委員,那藍軍呢?國民黨團現在哪一位?"},{"start":10304.923,"end":10310.968,"text":"我們可不可以確認一下我們這個案子事實上剛才也經過充分討論你又在插我話我才講30秒不到我是想會議詢問一下我們是不是可以確定我們有幾輪的發言好不好因為我們下面都還有很重大剛才講壯士在不重大嗎人家吳春城在這邊等了那麼久"},{"start":10333.706,"end":10348.752,"text":"他要學商我們進入學商人家有要求所以我們是不是最多兩輪可不可以那個主席那兩輪然後我們呢我們的發言我們一定會精簡好不好那把重點講出來那但是呢因為民進黨黨團已經用完兩輪了好不好好謝謝"},{"start":10353.483,"end":10367.474,"text":"等一下我等回答你讓我們反對方表達充分的意見我請教一下,是您發言還是宗家兵發言等一下,我先發言大市長要發言,召委都要發言"},{"start":10371.497,"end":10378.618,"text":"我現在要講啦我現在要講啦你們都已經用兩輪啦 現在該我講可以嗎你講什麼鬼話啦什麼鬼話啦我現在就是我可以講每一黨兩輪兩輪可以啦沒有啊 每一個政黨兩輪發言因為民進黨沒有這樣子倒退路咧這政界本案喔我們還倒退路他前面都是白算的嗎沒有主席這個"},{"start":10396.742,"end":10417.329,"text":"這個我們的議事的規則應該要確立啦好不好我還正式要發言呢我還正式不是你嗎柯總召主席又不是你啊我再詢問主席你是主席嗎你今天是主席嗎你不是主席好不好柯總召官委員請柯總召"},{"start":10422.037,"end":10439.072,"text":"這樣好不好民進黨再發言一會然後國民黨團發言一會台灣民進黨團發言一會我做至少兩位一黨兩位你不可能這兩位下去下面還有這六個案子我保證後面案子非常快而且行政部門一定表達現在不是你只要可以不可以你是因為中立的"},{"start":10439.833,"end":10462.706,"text":"我不是中立,我要...總之今天已經要通過各一個人不是中立嗎?各議員發言不是中立嗎?好不好?沒有,一黨至少兩個我們好好遵守這個規則,很快你剛剛跟他吵的時間都過去了嘛你怕人家講是不是?還是你不會講?你又講清楚不是啦,幫你講三分鐘可以啊你講三分鐘啊"},{"start":10465.248,"end":10468.951,"text":"我們希望這個環境是公平的好不好我們就只有這個要求"},{"start":10483.746,"end":10508.747,"text":"好不好 我要尊重你的發言我們一位嘛 如果你們要讓柯總召發言我們也沒有意見嘛我們尊重主席的才智啊謝謝大家提出尊重主席的才智那現在下面民進黨團發言一位國民黨團發言一位 台灣民眾黨團發言一位我們就結束所有的發言請柯建民總召請發言將來代替商案的時候"},{"start":10509.508,"end":10513.037,"text":"你還是可以再講,我要講什麼都沒有限制"},{"start":10516.684,"end":10527.786,"text":"各位委員同仁你們現在柯總召再發言,鍾佳斌委員請尊重一下柯總總統你也要說,總統要成功就是要年輕改革不要破產大家也要說"},{"start":10542.782,"end":10566.91,"text":"院長,我很尊重你院長,所有職務院長,各位委員同仁,各位律師官員今天是一個非常重要的時刻,剛才司副總講到最後,我先從他最後來講他講到最後都說,他在民主執政時期三任任務官員當部委所長"},{"start":10569.856,"end":10583.176,"text":"那段話實在聽起來非常動容但他最後講一句話就是說這法通過以後後續的作業程序非常長我從這裡開始講好不好剛才我想"},{"start":10584.716,"end":10610.007,"text":"蘇貞昌講的話是比較謙異的原則其實蘇貞昌剛才開頭第一句話就是平等原則平等原則是憲法第七條中華民國的國民、人民不分男女、宗教、種族的階級在法律上也一定平等今天我要講這個東西"},{"start":10613.803,"end":10635.929,"text":"這個先確定,你違反憲法的東西,其他後面都不必再講了所以在講一個憲法的平等原則,尤其年輕改革你像在過去,現在警察人員這樣的事情,這樣調整的話剛才兩個部長、三個部長都講得非常詳盡我今天要講一個句話就是說,針對"},{"start":10638.325,"end":10651.492,"text":"國民黨代表劉璇是英國留英的那我當然在外面也該講說小妞啊你是有前途的人啊你不要為了國民黨亂講話"},{"start":10654.485,"end":10681.367,"text":"那洪委員就比較知道,他口上嘔起來他不講,因為比他講他有良心的話他不講嘛那只有,我會當跑手,那那個傅文綺,那我塞在那裡看,看不到看什麼東西啊那林思明我們都是同鄉啦,也是律師啦不要挑釁對立,說好笑做不對啦,不要講謊話,這是不行的"},{"start":10682.954,"end":10710.067,"text":"這個是何其慎重的常委協商我們的血筋走高啦這不是小孩在玩遊戲的,我們的血筋走高所以從這裡開始我第一次很認真聽他講話講了七分鐘我有一個感覺啦唐思山來走,裡面有一個將近九分金不見黃河之水天上來溫柔到海不如晚,那氣勢非常磅礡他講得很快"},{"start":10712.301,"end":10736.633,"text":"但是折磨不清,裡面講話又鬼扯,折磨不清而且很可惜,以在國外的歷練,以你自己的學養你不要照狗面,你認得太快了你講話要講得能讓人感動,講話協力出來,道理出來,這是我善意的建議所以開頭第一句話最重要"},{"start":10738.334,"end":10758.081,"text":"暗中出宮啦所以事務長開始講的就是說憲法第七條評審原則沒有這評審原則以下都白講的那蔡前總統執政的時候我們展開臨近改革國事會議大家也見過這一段嘛每天都直播"},{"start":10759.844,"end":10782.912,"text":"我講Coin以前不太講,也不叫李萊希那這當民改國是非議,我有呈現民改國是非議我想那時候很多委員都還沒進到立法院來我又講這一句話就是說我來日本31年經過所有改革,經過所有法案,那撿回總召"},{"start":10784.622,"end":10796.97,"text":"二十年我看過法案至少六千個法案以上我參加朝野協商全部不太搞的因為要把所有的法律原則講得很清楚法律內容講得很清楚所以我要這樣講就是說"},{"start":10800.566,"end":10824.094,"text":"那位委員經過催淫,你會非常outstanding,連那個土著地下也弄錯了過去有委員說出席率講到出席率帥氣,我都奇怪怎麼有出席率帥氣,原來出席率所以這個薄敬一餐,年輕改革的時候如果如同展開,那時候還有八百壯士"},{"start":10826.049,"end":10843.459,"text":"對於非常嚴重大家不要忘記就在我們青龍鋼哨旁邊有八百三十爬到樓上去又摔下來當成死亡很多那種衝突衝突很嚴重到最後改革開除完成了"},{"start":10844.159,"end":10856.896,"text":"那今天我們在談這個警察人事條例的時候,因為中大院子,我相信大家都聽懂了吧就是說警察當然他很辛苦,當然圍繞獎金上面都有處理"},{"start":10860.891,"end":10875.239,"text":"那這個時候要講公平的話剛才蘇理事長講過沒有公務員都一樣公平平等對待不是只有警察我不是反對警察警消人員"},{"start":10876.508,"end":10893.237,"text":"是要有一個公平原則,沒有這個公平原則以上,政府沒有辦法讓你都違憲所以你講了半天,我們這樣講了半天經過表決以後,其實啊送事先的話,絕對違憲啦我不知道,我們哪知道現在如何在新聞底下談這個事情"},{"start":10895.626,"end":10909.419,"text":"那我要講就是說為什麼年輕改革讓大家這麼注意因為要勇氣所以剛才施部長有講過一句話你這樣改的話提早兩年破產提早兩年破產"},{"start":10910.768,"end":10932.235,"text":"那就是說既然是一開始就獨樹獨樹一開始就違憲的就沒有所謂我們後面要他去計算什麼將來的作業情形那是不這樣說不行但是在我眼光裡面我們大家要了解事務長的用意就是在這裡那將來我們來講的話"},{"start":10935.476,"end":10957.869,"text":"這到憲法法庭,我曾經為國會擴展到憲法法庭那吳士堯也是參加,中央秘密參加不管在暫時主任庭上面或是憲法法庭上辯論上面,尤其我們都參加那談到一個憲法庭裡面談到一個就是說國民黨所提的法案有沒有違憲"},{"start":10959.775,"end":10986.974,"text":"但是有一個人非常特別,他以前也曾經當過考選部部長也是在訴法院的人,叫董寶成董寶成本身也會寫憲法他是國民黨請來的請來接受專家講話的但是他裡面講了一句話我那時候,他講一句話就是說國民黨版本有沒有違憲他說,他拿一個報紙"},{"start":10988.871,"end":11010.378,"text":"那白紙張貼在臉上,他說顯而易見啊,而且民共就看了知道違憲了這個總某程鬧事到最後,國民黨情形代表一個浪費國民黨的版本有目測的,好像一看就知道違憲了,他哪一個紙張在他這裡"},{"start":11013.366,"end":11040.415,"text":"顯而易見的今天我們同樣的一句話告訴國民黨有沒有違憲這個要靠老夫兄也知道不是顯而易見的就是說為什麼王伯一直不敢講因為甚至說我們講三中你也能講過都不能再講因為你拿不出輿論書我在等待你們將來等一下下一輪怎麼講你追共"},{"start":11041.275,"end":11057.767,"text":"我講10分鐘你講20分鐘我都沒意見但是我會稀有公聽在後面的時候這個算這個沒有在下一個法案的下一個案子我還是可以講這個案子立法委員歡迎到市長不受限制所以請國民黨我在做我前排的國民黨"},{"start":11059.301,"end":11080.926,"text":"在你們即將投入歷史文化的最後一刻你們也要保持對國家的良心我剛才記者來問我我說我是仗義之言仗打藍白國民黨竟然要進入歷史文化組織歷史文化組織一來分滿了十個國民黨的黨主席國民黨的副總召"},{"start":11084.366,"end":11106.754,"text":"你們要像男子漢一樣,不要有guess你要出來論述,如何加速王董死亡你要當一個送心者希望這些你都聽得下去那待會前面好好講我們在座的不管吳氏雅委員、李公正委員、蔡壹維委員、蔡英文總裁、明朝委員"},{"start":11107.884,"end":11117.509,"text":"都會給你們詳細的解答部委首長,等一下,部委首長市部長他會給你引入通知的"},{"start":11124.375,"end":11127.436,"text":"那我會在盡量最短的時間內不會東扯西扯還會提到說什麼去要送行等等之類我覺得我們的這樣的一個協商應該要有效率而且"},{"start":11146.985,"end":11168.797,"text":"應該要就事論事不要從天保年間的儀式就開始談真的是浪費大家的時間那尤其我們其實每個案子都非常的重要那尤其剛才柯總召一開始講壯世代也非常重要所以其實我們接下來應該要討論壯世代這個基本法"},{"start":11173.679,"end":11191.379,"text":"那我在一開始我要先特別的去澄清一件事情因為剛才我們的全市部長又談到了說有關於公務員員加薪沒有確定啊我必須說因為最近呢民進黨的委員包含林柱英委員"},{"start":11192,"end":11209.96,"text":"公然造謠說這個公務人員不能夠加薪是因為在野黨故意拖延預算的審查不審預算但是事實上公務人員明年加薪3%這個其實是各政黨的共識"},{"start":11211.201,"end":11235.426,"text":"對不起今年114年的共識而我們的一個預算程序其實我也有提供過去七年來除了去年它比較特殊因為去年是選舉年而且總統換屆所以在整個的總預算三讀在去年確實在前一年度的12月底之前完成三讀"},{"start":11236.386,"end":11245.591,"text":"但是即使如此有關於公務人員加薪的部分仍然是公告實施的期間是到"},{"start":11247.146,"end":11274.718,"text":"當年的1月8號才開始實施那接下來前面的六年我也必須講前面六年大家也知道都是民進黨的委員占絕大多數在這樣的狀況之下我剛才講的從107年到112年沒有一年的總預算三讀是在前一年度的12月底前完成"},{"start":11275.698,"end":11297.178,"text":"那麼甚至呢 有關於公務員員調薪還有到當年度的1月下旬 比如說28號 29號才完成三讀那但是它的實施時間到2月中但是即使如此 等到通過之後 仍然會追溯發放"},{"start":11297.939,"end":11319.632,"text":"所以不會影響我們公教人員的條心的他的權益這個必須要核心序明我們要講得非常清楚啊不要連我們的部長也在配合民進黨的委員製造假消息假訊息造成我們公務人員的人心浮動"},{"start":11320.572,"end":11326.134,"text":"我覺得這不是一個尤其是這個我們的人事相關單位應該要做的事情這一點我們必須說明第二點剛才我也仔細聆聽我們的行政部門特別提到為什麼摯愛難行特別講到這樣的對於其他的公務人員是不公平的"},{"start":11344.662,"end":11353.068,"text":"好那這樣的一個論述基本上是製造公務人員之間的對立我覺得這一點是並不可取那尤其我們為什麼在這一次除了警察還有消防跟海巡我們可以看到我們的政府"},{"start":11364.195,"end":11379.23,"text":"一而再再而三就是要加強這個台灣的國防的防備所以一直提出來所謂的第二海軍就是海巡單位所謂的第二陸軍就是我們的警察人員"},{"start":11380.231,"end":11388.395,"text":"好 所以也就是說事實上在現在我們的政府防衛院性的一個規劃裡面我們的警察人員跟海巡人員事實上都已經被規劃到第二海軍跟第二陸軍所以我要講"},{"start":11399.261,"end":11406.863,"text":"在這樣的一個防衛的規劃下難道我們要去跟警消說雖然你們是第二海軍你們是第二陸軍但是你們還是跟軍方是不一樣的我覺得這一點對於這些警察和海巡人員是不公平的"},{"start":11418.826,"end":11443.439,"text":"那另外我也看到聽到剛才我們的行政部門說非常擔心啊造成了一個限職的軍警消還有海巡的他們的離退那我在這邊要特別講因為呢就是這些的我們的人員弟兄他們特別的危險所以我舉我把一個資料給大家看一下"},{"start":11444.139,"end":11462.376,"text":"也就是別說以景大的報名人數當然一方面我承認有少子化的原因但是也是就是第一個你比較危險然後但是呢你的待遇也沒有特別好所以以我們景大報名人數在108年還有4683人但是到了112年齊聚的滑落到2793人"},{"start":11470.803,"end":11476.989,"text":"所以我們今天面臨的不僅僅是說你只看到這樣子可能限職的他說我乾脆趕快退休好了但是你另外一方面也要想到如果我們希望能夠充實我們錦霄海巡然後達成你們第二海軍第二陸軍的目的是不是在他們的待遇上面"},{"start":11492.102,"end":11509.467,"text":"也應該做提升那麼剛才特別講我們應該是做限職人員對限職人員尤其他的僅勤加給應該提高這個我舉雙手贊成但是我也必須說我們一直到應該是前年才提高了僅勤加給"},{"start":11510.767,"end":11516.308,"text":"17年來沒有調才赫然發現我們其實虧待我們的警消海巡人員已經這麼久了其實老實說我們在這一次裡面我們沒有辦法到目前為止我們沒有辦法把移民署的人員特別是空勤的人員納入其實老實說我覺得我們某些委員對這些弟兄來講我們心理上也是過意不去的"},{"start":11537.592,"end":11538.333,"text":"尤其空情人員剛剛他有特別提到空情人員"},{"start":11542.594,"end":11547.295,"text":"每次大家都說哎呀有颱風的時候有災害的時候大家留在家裡不要出去可是對不起我們這些救災人員越是風大越是雨大越是有災害的時候他就要跑出去但是我們這次空情人員沒有辦法把他補上去我覺得都是遺憾啊我甚至很希望我們這次的這個修法能夠把這些真的"},{"start":11568.78,"end":11571.142,"text":"在我們整個防災裡面這麼重要環節的弟兄也能夠把他們補上去好 接下來我要特別回應剛才也一直在講每次都拿這種財務惡化來嚇唬我們"},{"start":11583.955,"end":11593.938,"text":"剛才我看到全市部長也講得非常清楚啦就是50年他已經有一個估計而且他這個估計是按照原來90%所得替代率90%來計算還有50年他的財務缺口是多少呢1700沒有1700 對不起"},{"start":11606.761,"end":11610.704,"text":"1772億1700多億不到1800億這是50年的財務缺口所以剛才一直在講我們如果實施不得了我們的退府基金要提前破產這個雖然是50年50年你如果覺得1700億財務缺口這麼大我請問一下台電一年要虧多少台電一年喔不要等50年喔"},{"start":11636.53,"end":11654.601,"text":"一年兩千億起跳價台電一年虧補就是兩千億我們應該講我們能源政策錯誤啊能不能改善台電的基本的財務狀況不做啊 不做啊用什麼辦法呢 不會補啊"},{"start":11655.561,"end":11660.945,"text":"所以如果1700億是了不起的財務缺口會讓我們財政惡化到破產那請問一下台電是不是讓我們整個國家都破產不是只有退府基金破產喔我們國家是不是因此為台電而破產一年就2000億元上然後你告訴我50年1700億好嚴重好嚴重我不曉得這個標準是什麼"},{"start":11677.577,"end":11679.559,"text":"好 這個完全不符合比例原則好 再來這個有關於財務缺口 剛才講年改年輕人是多麼重要多麼重要不年改不足以去作為改革好 那這一點呢我也要引用也是我們柯總召的徒弟啊就是我們前勞動部長何佩珊說的"},{"start":11699.878,"end":11707.76,"text":"有關於這個勞保年金的部分也有很多人講這個財務負擔很嚴重也有財務缺口該怎麼辦何沛山前部長柯建民總召的愛徒他怎麼說外界不應該有砍年金才是改革的迷思好不好 你看到沒有"},{"start":11724.79,"end":11749.268,"text":"不是只有看看看才叫改革這叫做迷思然後他的名言是政府2020年就開始撥補撥補也是改革聽到了嗎如果我們對於勞保年金我們對勞工部分我們政府可以認可撥補也是一種改革那請問50年1700億不能撥補"},{"start":11755.679,"end":11771.49,"text":"這樣就是我們的景蕭弟兄我們的海巡弟兄然後就要拖垮我們政府的財政拖垮所有公務人員以後你們可能領不到退休金你們退休金如果有虧損的話都是他們的錯人民和其無辜尤其這些這些弟兄我不用再重述他們的一個就是他們的現身間的任務跟危險性"},{"start":11785.339,"end":11813.882,"text":"而且如果今天按照人事總署講他心裡對於其他的公教人員過意不去啊大家都這麼辛苦奉獻國家是啊這不是什麼樣這不是途徑嗎為什麼很辛苦很危險然後像那個他們在講每一次出去拎著腦袋出去的對於他們的妻兒做何感想"},{"start":11814.659,"end":11824.886,"text":"如果你是警察的妻兒 如果你是消防人員我們看多少次消防人員在這些大火裡面 年紀輕輕喪失他們的生命如果我們能夠有一些憐憫之心 我們為什麼還要去製造這些對立"},{"start":11835.003,"end":11854.187,"text":"在我們合理去調整他們的一個退休所得替代率的時候還要把他們當成一個去肩負你政府財務不健全甚至你把他變成一個財務惡化甚至破產的代罪羔羊合理嗎當然不合理所以在這邊我們一直說我們願意做討論"},{"start":11864.704,"end":11877.325,"text":"我們不是沒有論述 但是我們尊重我們尊重主席的裁量權我們也希望在整個的協商過程裡面大家可以做理性的討論"},{"start":11878.942,"end":11898.708,"text":"但是如果今天只有唯我獨尊一講話就要講到30分鐘起跳然後逼迫其他人一定要聽我不是要你現在可能覺得我講得很久剛才因為柯總召說你也可以講其實我們不是不能講但是我們會希望好 我的意思就是說"},{"start":11902.711,"end":11930.744,"text":"我的意思就是說今天我們對於在某一次的草野協商我們尊重每一位出席者我們也尊重每一個題目比如說我們現在時間因為我們現在才到第二案對不對所以我剛才拜託主席我們把我們的一個原則因為每一個案子都很重要你今天講說年改很重要這些有關年金很重要重視帶不重要"},{"start":11931.764,"end":11935.409,"text":"蛤這次還不重要嗎能不能給他一點時間呢那我們再拖下去那到什麼時候呢對不對是不是然後我們我們不一樣不重要嗎我剛才就講了然後說我們什麼在拖延拖延預算"},{"start":11949.085,"end":11949.986,"text":"你把副醫生送過來然後要讓我們處理我們的時間已經極為有限我們的院會時間極為有限院長去美國參加川普的就職典禮也非常重要"},{"start":11964.807,"end":11982.059,"text":"那在這樣的狀況之下已經極度的壓縮我們的院會的時間所以今天不是在野黨在黨預算啊在野黨我們各個委員會都很努力的在加緊腳步在審預算啊我們都已經準備了我們的委員都還準備說是不是這個禮拜就應該進入再來協商預算了"},{"start":11987.463,"end":11988.404,"text":"可是呢 老師說我覺得民進黨不急民進黨急的是什麼 急的是復育 急的是去修憲"},{"start":11996.741,"end":12002.845,"text":"急的是罷免欸急的是要消滅其他政黨欸急的是解散國會不是嗎這不是柯總召這兩天念之再之的嗎所以我必須要來講我現在要來講民意所需總預算不是民意所需現在總預算不重要現在罷免比總預算還要重要柯總召你的意思是這樣子所以現在罷免比這個預算的通過還要重要囉你的意思是這樣嗎"},{"start":12025.58,"end":12044.036,"text":"民意所趨是什麼我們的認知我們大家盡量的配合老實講我們今天在野黨說實在比較急的應該是執政黨吧但是即使如此我們不分朝野民生法案大家加速通過人或有我們彼此意見不同"},{"start":12045.117,"end":12056.849,"text":"沒有關係嘛大家經過協商經過意識處理這不叫民主程序什麼叫民主程序聽一個人一個政黨的發言聽他一人的意見才叫民主程序嗎"},{"start":12059.278,"end":12081.337,"text":"賴總統所謂的更大民主我也聽不懂啊我們立法委員每一個都是選出來的啊對不對 我們的主席 我們的院長也是透過民主程序選出來的這不叫民主程序 什麼叫做民主程序不和民進黨就叫民主於死民主不要死啊 好不好說啊對不對你看 是不是你看走運算不重要啊台灣民眾黨請發言"},{"start":12087.799,"end":12092.645,"text":"謝謝主席我們大家都說軍人比警察的工作危險"},{"start":12095.154,"end":12099.637,"text":"大家領太多的政府預算警察同仁聽到會很傷心你們民進黨不能這麼說因為像現行的狀態每天救災救難是現任的警察海巡警消還有每天在高危險工作加班輪班我們為他們捍衛爭取和軍人一樣的制度很公平很合理的修法"},{"start":12123.234,"end":12145.858,"text":"在92年之前移民官他們也是警察因為政府改革增加一個署所以呢就把警察移到移民署他們現在以警察的身份退休嗎還是他們以移民官的退休呢他們的保障又是什麼如果民進黨沒有搞台獨搞分類沒有挑撥離間就不會有戰爭軍人就不會有危險"},{"start":12152.679,"end":12163.844,"text":"但是警察、消防、海巡還有專情人員每天都在保護人民的安全都處在危險的工作請大家討論警察條例如果協商無法達成共識請不要浪費大家的時間我們好好去討論好不好 謝謝"},{"start":12175.467,"end":12188,"text":"綜合上述黨團幹部所有的發言顯然無法達成共識因此警察人員人事條例我們送院會處理休息十分鐘我們進行壯士代協商"},{"start":12928.316,"end":12950.421,"text":"好 謝謝各位黨團幹部請坐好 謝謝非常感謝今天我們列席的我們現在討論壯士代政策與產業發展促進法草案我們非常感謝今天列席的官員國家發展委員會的彭副主委 歡迎您勞動部的陳次長"},{"start":12952.305,"end":12980.246,"text":"勞動部陳次長 歡迎您 歡迎您那其他各位列席官員 大家好 請坐我們現在進入第三案的協商我們先請這個中央世代的政策與產業發展促進法案請吳春哲委員請發言好 謝謝 謝謝主席喔這個我是一個菜鳥立委喔到了立法院"},{"start":12981.765,"end":12995.417,"text":"將近一年的時間,看到了高手雲集,高談闊論,高潮跌起,所以學習甚多"},{"start":12996.926,"end":13011.337,"text":"那每天就像在暴風雨當中院長應該也感受深刻所以呢就是在頂著這個風雨每天向前就像民眾黨的黨歌一樣穩穩的走"},{"start":13015.139,"end":13043.172,"text":"就是一步一腳印然後我一個部會一個部會去溝通去說明提倡壯世代的理念一開始大家陌生然後逐漸的今天走到這裡有院長來召集三個黨來協商這個壯處方那我充滿著感恩的心那這一個"},{"start":13063.669,"end":13070.552,"text":"臺灣在今年進入了超高齡的社會再過十年一半的人口將超過50歲"},{"start":13072.967,"end":13092.387,"text":"到時候消費市場萎縮 稅基減少 年輕人的撫養比飆高各種的社會問題迫在眉睫那在這一個關鍵的時刻 非常的感謝有在三黨的有勢之勢的合作之下"},{"start":13093.248,"end":13116.48,"text":"我們推動了撞促法為高齡化的台灣開出了一條路那撞促法呢在這個溝通過程當中很感謝三黨的支持因為提出了針對時代的問題提出了不一樣的解方而且立法程序完整過程當中還獲得了"},{"start":13117.981,"end":13147.321,"text":"行政機關積極的響應以具體的行政事件來充實撞住法的內容這裡也對行政單位表達謝意總結撞住法有五大特色第一個是跨社會撞住法是協助台灣從高齡社會無痛的邁向超高齡社會的一個法案過去五十年台灣的人口結構是很漂亮的正三角形但是"},{"start":13148.181,"end":13164.157,"text":"未來的五十年台灣的人口結構會變成倒三角形怎麼樣從一個正三我們過去習慣用正三角形的思維來制定法令制定政策準備的一切但是我們現在國發會的資料裡面"},{"start":13167.42,"end":13187.056,"text":"顯示了這個叫做不可逆轉的我們要走向倒三角形的社會所以政府的產業結構法令社會的思想現在還停留在50年前這是我跟各部會溝通的心得所以使得壯士代擁有社會資產的"},{"start":13189.718,"end":13210.656,"text":"這龐大的現在壯實在55歲以上已經有800萬人這800萬人無法有效的發揮他的效能反而是淪為社會的負擔我們有必要透過立法行政的合作來扭轉這樣的趨勢那第二個特色是跨黨派"},{"start":13212.637,"end":13234.486,"text":"撞促法在立法的過程當中我也非常感謝各黨派的支持我們在去年的4月份成立了撞促會就有63位跨黨派的立委的加入包括民進黨執政黨有20位委員也加入撞促會那莊瑞雄委員也是我們的副會長"},{"start":13235.706,"end":13254.518,"text":"你也有,宗嘉斌委員還有施堯也是然後那個王振旭委員還是我的這個法案的共同提案人還有我們兩位的那個易瑜、昆城都是這個法案的連署人所以我非常感謝當然國民黨的三長"},{"start":13255.419,"end":13278.592,"text":"都是這個法案的連署人還有包括那個孟楷也是狀促會的副會長也是狀促會的副會長所以我非常的感謝各黨派的支持那這一次的法案也有40位跨黨派的立委連署所以共識度相當的高第三個特色是跨部會"},{"start":13279.873,"end":13299.282,"text":"我也非常感謝我們的卓議院長在今年五月份就看了這個在我的一場質詢當中他聽了以後就非常感動允諾在行政院成立的壯士在跨部位小組由陳時中這一個政委來擔任召集人"},{"start":13300.262,"end":13324.153,"text":"那一開始我是要求六個部會結果陳時中政委把它擴張到14個部會加入所以已經有14個部會在這個大概將近半年多的時間來推動特別是勞動部一整年的時間高舉的壯世代重返職場三年內編列了98億鼓勵而且應該是這一年來這一個"},{"start":13330.96,"end":13349.109,"text":"勞動部最亮眼的政策最亮眼的政策就是壯士代衝繁職場來填補我們現在勞動力的不足而且在立法的過程當中我們除了所有的過程都非常的慎重完整之外我們也舉辦了兩次的公聽會"},{"start":13350.049,"end":13374.02,"text":"第一次的公聽會有十個部會出席其中有八個次長全程出席四個小時非常的投入而且我們很有高度的共識到第二次公聽會的時候有十二個部會出席所以立法程序相當的完整第四個特色是跨領域狀促法是因應"},{"start":13375.558,"end":13393.316,"text":"台灣進入高齡社會以來從社福性的、照護性的政策跨向了一個發展性的政策的代表就是我們未來龐大的高齡人口到2070年65歲的人口將會占到台灣人口的46%"},{"start":13398.503,"end":13416.108,"text":"將近一半的人超過65歲我們不可能一直用照護性用福利性的政策來因應這樣一個社會所以如何繼續的發揮這一群高齡者倒三角形我一直在倡議我們面對的高齡社會"},{"start":13417.148,"end":13438.561,"text":"是一個悲慘世界還是一個美好世界呢我們現在幾乎都用悲慘世界的方式在處理那這絕對是一場災難一定要把它打造成一個美好的新世界那這就是壯世代法案的一個重要的精神所以這樣子改"},{"start":13439.562,"end":13464.042,"text":"不是說要否定社福思維而是變成要雙軌制雙軌制一邊的推動社福照護一邊的推動發展性讓他過著美好第三人生我們現在臥床長達到八年我們要努力讓他縮短到兩週這樣才能夠降低我們的社福的壓力讓社福政策能夠永續性的發展"},{"start":13465.583,"end":13481.607,"text":"第五個特色叫跨世代過去我們很多的政策都是世代衝突這個世代多哪一點就是另外一個世代被剝削造成了我們的世代很多的一個對立但撞處罰是一個"},{"start":13485.109,"end":13504.109,"text":"讓世代的資源可以循環發展長壽經濟這也是符合現在經濟部的政策長壽經濟壯世代掌握台灣三分之四的財富但是我們竟然沒有這些壯世代產業除了養生養病養老之外一無所有"},{"start":13505.21,"end":13526.645,"text":"現在已經有龐大的八百萬人在這塊領域當中只有政府除了一個長照政策之外其他的一無所有我們的各部會幾乎把所有這樣的責任推給了衛福部其他部會老人跟我都沒有關係教育部的六十歲以上的預算不到一趴"},{"start":13527.586,"end":13538.532,"text":"不到1% 只有大概0.2%文化部也是一樣 數位部一樣各個部會都覺得老人跟我都無關但是沒有想到這些人即將佔人口的一半"},{"start":13539.96,"end":13558.015,"text":"所以這個是非常的謬誤是停留在一個農業社會1970年的社會來制定一個未來的政策所以這個不得不翻轉因為這樣子不是在幫助年輕人這樣子當這些人傾倒的時候我們現在的撫養比是3.6個撫養一個人到2040年兩個人要撫養一個人2057年一個人要撫養一個人如果這些人倒下來了"},{"start":13565.805,"end":13590.557,"text":"年輕人都沒有未來了所以我們要讓這些人撞下來讓他投入生產性所以不會製造世代對立而是世代的攜手合作降低我們下一代的撫養比的負擔同時創造市場為下一代來創造新的市場機會所以今天非常的懇求各位那我們一起攜手努力為台灣寫下新的一頁 謝謝"},{"start":13591.357,"end":13616.239,"text":"非常非常感謝吳春城委員的發言非常感謝各位黨團幹部我們今年一月三號黨團協商共識之中針對本案民進黨黨團主張先討論民進黨團所提的四項提議如果我們獲知共識的話我們定於元月七號就是明天星期二院會就進行處理民進黨所提的四個提案請各位黨團幹部來參考一下一"},{"start":13617.02,"end":13644.831,"text":"第二条定义为年龄55岁以上有工作能力及工作意愿二不设专职办公室专职机构改国发会三不设基金四不在于两年之内修相关的法规现在我们进行发言请吴思瑶干事长请发言国民党团请准备请吴思瑶干事长请发言"},{"start":13647.228,"end":13652.201,"text":"國民黨團請準備那我也替我們很多委員爭取等一下因為這是一個新的我眼睛在看我眼睛在看謝謝"},{"start":13654.313,"end":13664.696,"text":"首先我想吳春城委員民眾黨這麼努力在推壯士代政策與產業發展促進法我們之後就簡稱壯促法那當然我認為這個也跟我們跨黨合作這都是一個很好的開始事實上行政部門早在2022年的高齡社會白皮書的推動辦理情形裡頭"},{"start":13677.78,"end":13695.354,"text":"跨15個部會然後融合了345項政策工作從112年到115年已經投入1200億這都是跟現在現行的政策那其實高度的在進行當中那如果以最新年度的113年剛過去的這一年政府對於這種高齡社會的相關的投入也高達285億左右"},{"start":13703.22,"end":13718.527,"text":"所以說這是跟既定的政策的方向裡頭是高度的政府在政策上也高度的來照顧這個所謂我們要新創它是一個壯世代這個稱號那但是就是說今天我們要以一個全新的立法"},{"start":13719.187,"end":13734.776,"text":"那當然有幾個事情我們可能首先要去思維的就是說讓它是一個完整的整合性的工作那整合性的政策它能夠非常統合性的去推動盡可能的在新的立法當中去避免跌床駕屋"},{"start":13736.377,"end":13764.906,"text":"去避免事被公辦也就是說大家釐清可以做的事情那有一些當然是guideline式的一些原則性的宣示性的我們都很樂意配合來入法所以民進黨團這段時間也跟行政部門那也在委員會討論的階段那當然包括進入朝野協商的階段我們也都多次跟吳春城委員來做溝通我想再次說我們的跨黨合作民進黨團一直在進行只要是服國立民的政策"},{"start":13765.606,"end":13789.976,"text":"那在上週五我們的黨團共識裡頭我想大家可以看到的幾個原則剛剛院長也大概宣示了所以說我具體回應版本的部分大家可以參考一下這都經過很多時間的一個討論第一個在第二條的壯世代的定義的部分我們看到村城委員今天提出來的修正版本是壯世代"},{"start":13791.357,"end":13813.887,"text":"指55歲以上有工作意願之國民這個部分定義等一下文字還可以再斟酌一下因為就我們上週五的共識是說55歲以上有工作能力及工作意願者之國民或者是用卓院長所說的55歲以上健康有工作能力且為生產者及消費者"},{"start":13815.287,"end":13828.332,"text":"這個定義的部分大家最後再對一下這是第二條的部分然後在第三條也謝謝霍志的共識就是在不吝嗇專責機關所以在第三條的部分本法之主管機關為國家發展委員會"},{"start":13830.273,"end":13848.44,"text":"然後主管機關要整合各目的事業主管機關涉及壯世代的權責等等所以第三條的第一項文字上有做這樣子的處理然後呢這個第三條的第二項跟第三項其實村城委員可以參考一下其實是可以不用的啦第二項跟第三項"},{"start":13849.78,"end":13864.974,"text":"是可以不要的啦然後再來就是不吝赦基金抱歉院長私藥委員你們有版本我先一併講一下你有版本你要不要去把版本印出來給大家看現在發下來的是民眾黨我依據民眾黨的版本來做說明"},{"start":13867.156,"end":13882.107,"text":"因為剛剛村城委員有發因為我覺得這樣子還是很難討論如果說你們民進黨真的已經有版本的話那這樣子就拿出來大家直接看條文嘛來我先講完好嗎因為我是依據民眾黨的再修正動議去修正好不好我先把論述完沒關係等一下可以不用急等一下可以不用急可以不用急"},{"start":13891.954,"end":13894.476,"text":"因為我也是剛剛拿到村城委員的再修正動議先讓我發言完好嗎"},{"start":13914.77,"end":13925.818,"text":"再修正東西是民進黨的版本所以說呢在第三條的部分後面的第二項跟第三項是不是要留著是可以討論的這個交給大家來討論再來回到"},{"start":13928.98,"end":13947.051,"text":"我們要回到這個憲法以及財政紀律法還有預算法的規定我們現在都不要用立委的修法來增加政府支支出所以第17條的部分不新設基金就是現行的第17條就春城委的版本把它第三項拿掉"},{"start":13947.931,"end":13971.126,"text":"所以看到我們的版本現在手上這個第三項就沒有了我想村城委員也同意所以在不新設基金的部分是17條拿掉它的第三項然後最後一個我們也通過充分的溝通就是村城委員的第20條原本希望說本法實行後的兩年內各級政府要依本法再去修訂其他的法規但是這個跟行政部門也討論過就不再進行這樣子的做法"},{"start":13975.589,"end":13986.855,"text":"所以說第20條就是刪除所以我再具體說明一次我也跟孟愷委員再說明一次現在呢這個修正動議可以看一下它的第一欄第二條就第一項的"},{"start":13993.439,"end":14008.55,"text":"第一款的這個壯世代的定義等一下大家再斟酌一下就是這個用字的部分第三條的部分第一項它就是用國發會作為主責機關這個OK第二項第三項要不要放可以斟酌"},{"start":14009.511,"end":14029.89,"text":"因為基本上有點墜語啦那17條OK已經拿掉第三項新設基金了然後第20條已經全文刪除了所以我具體說明這四個爭點那至於定義的部分是要用我們那天週五的協商的結論就是年滿55歲以上有工作能力及工作意願之國民"},{"start":14030.791,"end":14059.643,"text":"或者是卓院長的55歲以上健康有工作能力且為生產者及消費者之國民這個大家一起來發揮智慧把文字再磋商一下所以我應當沒有遺漏我們之前溝通的很多我想我們都很善意很希望促成這件事情所以村長委員我的說法應當都是很清楚都是符合我們的私謠現在請國民黨團發言然後如果發言完畢大家都能達成共識我們就簽好不好請國民黨團簽"},{"start":14062.179,"end":14078.234,"text":"好 感謝主席以及我們今天學校的代表我想為什麼我剛剛會在吳司藥委員在發言的時候特別有在請教是因為司藥委員在講的時候我們手上只有拿到一個是修正動議一個是再修正動議"},{"start":14079.355,"end":14101.848,"text":"但是一直從過去到現在我們並沒有從我們的這個這一次的壯世代的這個部分是只有主題案本席也是主題案人之一那今天不管是各部會出來其實部會行政部門也沒有行政部門版本所以說我們今天在立一個專法的時候行政部門今天我不知道行政部門態度是什麼"},{"start":14102.928,"end":14131.365,"text":"我這樣放眼望去好像也沒有部會首長來那今天行政部門的態度我也不知道是什麼那我們過去好幾個專法其實也是這樣子就如同我們上禮拜我們大家在討論這個公益階比者保護法就從委員會開始討論的時候就只有國民黨團的版本國民黨個別委員版本民眾黨個別委員版本然後行政部門沒有版本民進黨的版本直到最後在上上禮拜的院會的時候才擺出來"},{"start":14132.125,"end":14159.287,"text":"所以我說如果說你真的有版本的話其實大家願意就條文論條文大家拿出來討論我覺得這是好事這才有實質的意義我覺得這也還是朝野協商的目的跟宗旨那今天樂見啦就說再修正東西是民進黨團的版本今天拿出來我覺得幾個有爭點的部分有把它聚焦了我覺得這是好事那我不知道說民進黨團的版本出來前行政部門有沒有看過"},{"start":14161.249,"end":14190.533,"text":"行政部門等一下肯定要表達一下意見等一下請行政部門國發會行政部門等一下肯定要表達意見因為行政部門現在主管機關是國發會喔上個禮拜五的最後的協商就三黨黨團的一個協商共識從原本希望是行政院下面設專責辦公室到變成是說國發會那國發會在這短短幾天裡面執政黨黨團有沒有跟你們溝通或說執政黨黨團提出來這版本你們有沒有了解或說行政部門有沒有相對應的版本"},{"start":14192.136,"end":14204.467,"text":"那這個是第一個部分那第二個部分就是說如果說以年齡狀世代的這個年齡區分的話現在看到民進黨團的這個版本是指45歲到65歲我覺得這定義有一點點太過於狹隘就是說45歲以上"},{"start":14212.677,"end":14231.908,"text":"在場應該都是壯士代了我在四年我也壯士代了在45歲當然可以稱為壯士代也不是一個壞事也是一個很值得教的事可是到65歲又不是壯士代了那65歲以上要叫什麼這個初老壯士代"},{"start":14232.908,"end":14249.979,"text":"還是什麼所以說其實這一個部分我覺得這如果說45歲到65歲這就有一點點太過狹隘這20年其實我們一直講的壯世代的用意是什麼就在於是說現在的高齡化社會是不是不可逆的趨勢確實是不可逆的趨勢"},{"start":14250.899,"end":14275.827,"text":"那我們怎麼樣來讓這不可逆趨式化助力化主力為助力就是我們希望是65歲以上我們原本是退休的這個沒有辦法有生產力的這一些勞動力我們可以轉變成有生產力的積極投入的勞動力所以我們才會有這個創世代相關的一個產業的一個條例所以說我們才會希望是說一開始的講法會是以"},{"start":14277.833,"end":14305.032,"text":"55歲以上只要你有工作意願的國民都可以納入當作是壯士代75歲很身體健康硬朗想要工作也都可以稱為壯士代我們的總召70多歲柯總召70多歲了還是一條活龍還是覺得說現在是他這個精力最旺盛的時候要貢獻國家所以他也是壯士代的一個代表對不對所以"},{"start":14305.872,"end":14319.762,"text":"我覺得這個部分是範圍可以再放寬一點範圍可以再放寬一點那主管機關是國發會所以國發會一定要講清楚你現在看的不管是我們原本的版本還是"},{"start":14320.863,"end":14347.373,"text":"吳春城委員這邊民眾黨所提的修正動議或是民進黨今天所拿出來的再修正動議你們是不是都可以接受還是有哪幾條你們不能接受我覺得你們先把你們不能接受的調做因為我相信你們不能接受應該是比較少那我們針對不能接受的部分我們聚焦來討論可能這樣會比較凝聚共識那也許也就可以化解很多的一個誠意非常好以上謝謝非常好非常好"},{"start":14349.615,"end":14370.373,"text":"請國發會的彭副主委請發言請求發言嗎嘉賓委員您稍待一下好嗎我什麼時候可以發言您馬上就可以發言了還有一個因為我是尊重你看你旁邊昆城兄又舉手我很為難因為它是這樣的循環的您知道我的意思嗎我知道你很急著發言我們彭副主委發言完你就發言好嗎好 請彭副主委請"},{"start":14373.253,"end":14394.668,"text":"謝謝院長 也謝謝各位委員侯孟凱委員善意提醒不接受的部分或是你認為衝刑比方要先提出來我是不是先針對第一個就是國發會確實已經理解就是把專責機構改為國家發展委員會這個國發會確實已經有所理解那第二點是在那個"},{"start":14396.169,"end":14411.386,"text":"第三條的部分後面第一項第二項在第三項前兩項那個後面是不是可以不需要特別講出來講的那麼清楚那再來是在第21條有關公佈實施日期"},{"start":14416.571,"end":14435.603,"text":"國防院這邊能夠準備的時間 抱歉主席抱歉我也抱歉我一樣您剛講的是以哪一個版本的第一第三條的第一項第二項再修正動議的再修正動議對你要講清楚我們才有辦法看再修正動議的版本的第三條"},{"start":14441.139,"end":14464.335,"text":"也就是剛剛那個吳思耀委員所提到的二三項你現在手上拿的是民進黨團吳思耀上面有蓋一個章民進黨在修正而已好請繼續好那最後就是那個因為我們需要一些時間做一些準備所以在那個第20條有本法制公佈日時施行是不是可以改成是本法制施行日期由行政院定制"},{"start":14467.143,"end":14489.986,"text":"就以上這比較有差異的部分跟各位委員報告好謝謝彭副主委寶貴的發言接下來鍾嘉斌委員請發言國民黨團請準備好謝謝要稱您院長不是稱主席因為只有院長可以組織朝野協商那首先要表達跟院長做一個告白很卑微的一個請託現在我變得很悲憤了"},{"start":14491.107,"end":14505.06,"text":"打從我第一次參加院長主持的抄寫商就差點被請出去我也不是新科立委當了第三屆委員能不能出席抄寫商當然可以但是後來呢院長呢好不容易修改了規則讓我們擔任召委的可以來發言"},{"start":14506.576,"end":14526.149,"text":"上會期的立法院職權刑事法討論到國情報告專章的時候我也跟院長請求在我們本屆的委員當中當過第三屆或者曾經當過國大代表聽過總統國情報告的應該沒有幾個我想要來貢獻一些心得還是被院長拒絕了"},{"start":14527.009,"end":14548.085,"text":"今天好不容易在這裡已經坐了快三個小時了好不容易可以來這邊做個發言其實過去常常看到院長很親切堆滿笑容關心我們的服裝關心我們有沒有受傷但是我希望院長能夠更關心委員專業問政在他行使職權的時候給予必要的尊重以及給予他的權利"},{"start":14548.905,"end":14574.093,"text":"那我想呢過去剛剛之前在討論的議題其實草野協商經常不能對焦有時候有人會說裝睡的人叫不行但是我很不喜歡這樣講因為如果我們在跟對方溝通對方聽不懂我先檢討自己是不是我講的不夠明白舉例來講身為民意代表我最常接觸的就是農民"},{"start":14575.083,"end":14598.133,"text":"但是你要告訴農民他對政府的政策了解嗎舉一個很簡單的例子老農津貼我想在場的幾位委員可能蔓玉珍委員在台灣停留時間要短其他都會的委員老農津貼多少錢農民跟他講現在調8000多塊他很開心過沒幾天他跟你說他老農津貼被取消了他說我農報有了嗎"},{"start":14600.114,"end":14605.527,"text":"但是我們跟他講 抱歉喔阿伯啊你老婆的籠包跟你的老籠電梯是兩回事啊但是我們能夠責怪他嗎"},{"start":14609.508,"end":14636.061,"text":"老年農民福利津貼暫行條例以及農民健康保險條例規範的是不一樣的事情我問阿伯說請問農保你有多少?他說三千多塊三千多塊錢3024是半年的一個月才繳504塊其中大部分是全民健康保險的保費他真正農民健康保險的保費只有78塊錢但他一個月要領超過8000塊的老農津貼"},{"start":14638.142,"end":14662.641,"text":"說清楚了他就理解他繳的農保的保費跟他領的老農今天是兩碼子事同樣的情況在我們今天的協商剛剛又發生了一直有人在討論到說我們警校人員很辛苦退職的警校人員應該給予照顧這個包括我們現在壯世代我們要談年輕世代跟青壯世代的世代公平那要講這個怎麼講呢"},{"start":14664.656,"end":14689.551,"text":"可能我們剛剛的官員N幾字啦 提撥字啦 抱歉喔可能連退休的警消都聽不太懂我們在選區 我經常遇到的擁有會什麼叫擁有會 你知道嗎 不是游泳的泳喔是退休的消防人員組成的擁有會我在他們聚會的時候 也跟他們提過說這個事情他們說很好啊 我們退休了啊 我們年輕的時候躲打兵啊現在呢 應該跟著一起調"},{"start":14690.885,"end":14716.824,"text":"我要說明的是N幾字可能人家聽不懂我打個比方好了今天有個營造建材公司的大老闆他手下的員工有在工地工地的也有在工廠做建材的也有在辦公室裡面做財務的也有騎著機車開著汽車到處去拉客戶跑業務的今天如果到半年中尾呀他說很好啊我們在工地的最辛苦請他們吃一桌一萬元"},{"start":14718.22,"end":14725.989,"text":"其次在工廠裡面的24小時輪班請他吃8000塊一桌然後如果在辦公室吹冷氣的報表的6000塊一桌"},{"start":14728.945,"end":14750.691,"text":"至於跑業務的雖然曬著太陽但是你們有抽成所以就跟院長一樣說的吃漢堡麥當勞吃披薩就可以了你說這樣公不公平沒有人可以講話為什麼錢是老闆出的老闆要給不同部門的人看他對公司的貢獻分別給他多少的獎勵那叫做恩己志"},{"start":14751.789,"end":14761.778,"text":"但是現在的提撥這是什麼軍人一個水庫公教警校一個水庫大家各有各的在職期間要提撥的費率"},{"start":14762.981,"end":14789.481,"text":"大家都繳簡單講你可以想成是剛剛講的那個題目軍人是怎樣在職期間提撥退休之後吃軍人就像我們餐廳搭伙一樣今天人家跟軍人搭伙吃的是軍糧你跟公教警校搭伙吃的是公教警校的餐點但是差別是什麼現職人員繳依照這個規定搭伙繳錢但是呢退休之後才去餐廳用餐"},{"start":14790.442,"end":14813.201,"text":"這時候突然警校跳出來說我在職期間交的錢跟公教警校是一樣的但是我要吃跟軍人一樣的餐廳這公平嗎這當然不公平啊不是不公平是根本搞錯方向了提撥制是根據你在職期間你根據大家同樣的規則提繳的這些金額在你退休的時候來享用"},{"start":14814.002,"end":14837.048,"text":"所以錦霄在辛苦,他其實跟軍人在適用的退伏,就是不同的規則拿來做對應,實在是風馬牛不相及但是突然有人提到說,欸錦霄也跟軍人一樣中委員嘉賓,我們現在是院長,我說很悲憤,你要我繼續悲憤下去,你能不能讓我講完剛剛委員現在講的時候,我講的內容你怎麼知道跟壯士在沒有關係"},{"start":14840.284,"end":14857.401,"text":"請尊重委員的發言權啊所以呢我要說的是說其實我們在談到這些制度的時候我們要講得清楚明白讓當事人聽得懂不然你講了半天警校覺得他的付出很大他的很辛勞啊但是你看一看他的薪水我們單單講這個句話我們過去在地方上服務"},{"start":14860.323,"end":14888.2,"text":"很多人會來請求人事請託我遇到過警校要調職的我遇到過寓所管理員想要改換不要在寓所管理員工作的我遇到過那些比較重要的保護性社工他們的家長很擔心自己的女兒去當保護性社工有生命危險有安全的違律這些都告訴我們其實公教警校的工作內容不一而足不見得誰都比較好"},{"start":14888.9,"end":14907.091,"text":"每個人都要面對的困難包括說連老人常照機構要照三班制輪我們為無辜的長官在這裡這些人也覺得很辛苦啊那這些人很辛苦是什麼時候辛苦在職期間辛苦啊所以這些在照顧機構的這些人夜間有夜點啊"},{"start":14908.377,"end":14921.708,"text":"這些保運社工,他也會有一些家籍啊這些寓所管理員,他們有他們工作上,國家另外給他安排的所以我就問我們擁有會的退休警消我問他說,現在阿伯啊,你已經70幾歲了你現在有什麼危險?你跟我們留下的公營、運行、退休的、護理你們兩個都70幾歲,你們有什麼危險?"},{"start":14932.242,"end":14958.613,"text":"過去他在銀行工作吹冷氣比較舒服你在拿著苗子火場打火你很辛苦那個圍牢都已經表達進去了我們看到所以在警校的部分支援遷休年齡比人家早他50歲可以支援退休月退的年齡他55歲也是比別人早10年那我們來看一下為什麼一定要跟軍人比軍人怎麼比我隨便講一個好了上位"},{"start":14959.801,"end":14982.852,"text":"上位居然他在上位的薪資是四萬兩千四百零五元可是對應同等級的警政四階警專畢業做到警政四階他可以領九萬三千一百八十元為什麼有這個差別很簡單嘛因為上位他停年十五年他二十二歲出來任官他可能如果是念那種專科班的就像我們院長可能過去有知道"},{"start":14983.932,"end":15011.264,"text":"從任官開始就開始起算了起算到你任官滿15年上位滿15年你可能不到35歲你的年資當然只能領到多少42409但是警察他就在這警政事階他做到了55歲他可以領月退他的奉典是525點他可以領到93184元不是因為軍人的待遇警察的待遇比軍人好是因為兩個人的服務年限不同"},{"start":15011.764,"end":15034.22,"text":"因為年資不同造成最後退休時候他領的薪資所得是不一樣的一個是93,180一個42,405誰比較高高超過一倍以上啊但是軍人的福利待遇不好嗎但是考量到他年資他的從事服務的年齡他退伍的時候他當然會跟警消不太一樣"},{"start":15035.06,"end":15052.707,"text":"所以我們這裡不斷在提醒說今天在84年N級制改變為提撥制之後我們到底在面對這個不同世代之間我們要求取他在職人員跟他退休之後享受的這些權利要回歸到他的本職"},{"start":15055.469,"end":15066.844,"text":"軍人的退伍是一套制度公教警消是一個制度不能混為一談至於在職期間的圍牢公教警消當中的警消在職期間的圍牢國家已經表達了"},{"start":15068.018,"end":15085.791,"text":"那麼軍人他的圍牢國家也表達了考量到軍人的服務年資比較短所以他退休的時候他的所得替代率是跟人家不一樣的那麼現在我們要把警消的所得替代率從本來應該到65要提升回到80"},{"start":15086.952,"end":15105.411,"text":"那這個80%大家有機會去看一看國民黨所提出來的條文版本它的附表連這個80%連35年的計算都沒有對容啊所以我是覺得說我們修法要有一個完善的過程那今天說到壯世代我看院長一直欺騙我說壯世代沒有錯"},{"start":15106.552,"end":15128.265,"text":"壯世代的擴張讓整個全民都能夠去體察到他們是對國家對社會是有用的這個我們都支持認同這樣的精神但是一個國家要能夠永續經營能永續發展必須讓不同的世代他們都覺得有世代公平可言所以我還是要拜託今天我們在這裡朝野協商我也不曉得說是不是在"},{"start":15129.105,"end":15149.517,"text":"在雞同鴨講但是我很樂意不管是什麼題目我們能夠針對問題一個一個來解不要說對方跟我們講的話沒有對焦說人家裝睡覺不醒其實我不這樣講我希望我們能夠跟全民的來解釋說明當國家進行重大政策改革的時候用人民聽懂懂的話"},{"start":15150.778,"end":15164.585,"text":"壯士代也好或者是警察人員人事條例也好今天好不容易院長容易讓我講警察人員人事條例是我們司法法治委員主審跟內政聯席結果呢我們司法法治的召委在這裡請求要發言從剛剛"},{"start":15166.366,"end":15190.042,"text":"三點開始到現在快三個小時我們才有這個機會來表達然後可能主席要說啊啊這個案子剛已經協商完畢了對每次院長組織的協商啊只要有討論啊有形式上討論就好有沒有真實的對話您在所不論所以在這裡呢除了卑微除了悲憤還是要一個悲憫的心情請院長體恤我們全國人民他們繳了稅"},{"start":15191.303,"end":15218.144,"text":"我們立了法我們協商的時候要講他們聽得懂的話讓他們理解會有什麼後果有什麼代價而不是在這邊形式上過水然後明天表決搶臉過關就算了蔣編委員你發言開心嗎我感覺他好像算好你還是發言了嘛好不好我還是很尊重很尊重我真的很希望尊重大家要不然我哭上了臉嗎我希望你不是大家開心嗎好"},{"start":15220.325,"end":15237.029,"text":"那個三個黨團黨編吼,魏思堯的,我現在協商結論已經達成公式了嗎?那我們國民黨團可以發言一位,民進黨團發言兩位,然後台灣民主黨可以再發言一位,請"},{"start":15240.54,"end":15266.009,"text":"沒關係 我們邊發言你邊去修嘛 好不好OK我想院長這個壯士代治部法案其實我們在1月3號剛才院長有念過那個協商其實大家都講得很清楚就是針對這個不設基金還有那個工作能力還有工作意願這部分大家把定義一樣還有就是第二條的年齡定義為55歲以上"},{"start":15268.47,"end":15292.086,"text":"那麼都形成共識了那組織機關就改為國發會所以今天我們看到吳尊成委員他的一個提案就針對這幾個那天達成了黨團的共識他提出再修正動議那我們今天又看到這個國發會其實是國發會的版本剛才講說是民進黨的版本其實就是國發會的意識"},{"start":15293.727,"end":15309.04,"text":"那其實我們就是吳孫成委員已經針對我們黨團形成的共識的四個條文他已經修訂的非常清楚了比如說第二條就是指說壯士代就是指55歲以上的國民嘛"},{"start":15309.58,"end":15326.902,"text":"這很清楚了另外就第三條主管機關就改為國發會那另外就第17條就是他的這個基金就這個也把它刪除另外就是對他的施行日期就講說本法是公佈日施行"},{"start":15328.043,"end":15352.47,"text":"這個都已經達成共識了所以我想我們希望說我們就聚焦啦我們不要再去就沒有這一的條文是不是我們就不用再討論就沒有意見了就針對這幾個條文我們文字來做修正好謝謝林士明書記長大致上已經答的差不多他們在最後做一點微調台灣民眾黨團就發言嗎不發了好那我們休息五分鐘請調"},{"start":15361.44,"end":15376.454,"text":"那我們現在進入第四案我們第三案就等我們那個三個黨的主要婦人在協商之後然後我們再來簽字好不好來謝謝我們現在進入第四案"},{"start":15398.103,"end":15405.874,"text":"我再拿下來嘛好,各位黨團幹部謝謝各位列席官員,請回,謝謝,謝謝大家"},{"start":15409.986,"end":15431.339,"text":"我跟大家党团报告一下我们现在进行复议案跟财团法人公共电视推举社会公正人士的协商第四案跟第五案要跟大家报告一下公共电视我们巡力办理公正人士原则上就是由国民党七位民进党七位台湾民众党一位推举社会公正人士组成"},{"start":15432.299,"end":15451.494,"text":"那在這裡,我們有準備一個草稿,我先宣讀一下,請工作同仁把草稿發下去如果各位同意的話,就請我們準備來簽字,那現在我來念一遍給大家聽一下就沒問題,第四項怎麼辦?"},{"start":15453.049,"end":15456.132,"text":"有關行政院罕請推舉社會公正人士組成財產法人公共電視文化事業基金會董事監察人審查委員會議案"},{"start":15475.871,"end":15495.567,"text":"以政黨比例由國民黨台推派七位民進黨團推派七位台灣民眾黨團推舉一位組成名單請於一月十六號星期四中午十二點前送至議事處會診預時視同放棄請問各位黨團幹部沒有意見沒有意見好那就請簽字"},{"start":15497.088,"end":15506.697,"text":"院長你招禮箱應該最後一個簽我最後一個簽來簽請各種招簽好謝謝沒有意見我們現在回到我們附議案自由的"},{"start":15535.992,"end":15558.986,"text":"我們現在繼續進行要跟各位黨團幹部報告一下我們處理復議案的部分以本院職權刑事法相關規定復議案要列在院會報告事項接著要交全院委會審查審查時得邀請行政院院長說明審查完畢後由院會進行記名投票表決"},{"start":15560.908,"end":15579.919,"text":"另外,副議案在立法院的處理時間,憲法明文規定15天之內要處理完畢所以針對副議案的處理,我們要把握憲法規定這15天的時間,完成副議案的處理以下,就請各黨團幹部表達一下對副議案的意見請柯總召先發言,請第一個"},{"start":15586.94,"end":15611.864,"text":"有關於呼籲案,當然行政院對於立法院所修訂的法令,認為有治安難行,所以要提出呼籲,這憲法規定了而且行政院院長一定要來,不是得邏輯,行政院院長一定要來,才有備詢因為他認為治安難行,憲法才有規定,所以不是得邏輯,行政院院長一定要來備詢,這憲法規定了那不然我們跟誰講話?怎麼執行?"},{"start":15616.638,"end":15638.615,"text":"院長吧,這點先講,第二個有關於過去我們今年的國會改革,應該是兩天嘛兩天然後完畢以後表決嘛,不管怎麼樣我們要控制就是說一定要讓憲法法律實驗裡面完成但是呢"},{"start":15647.176,"end":15672.281,"text":"有時間內必須送人去完審查嘛但是審查的時候可以延五天,加起來是五天嘛反正這個照憲法延出來就好了,我是覺得那請硬幫幫,請你一下,明天送程式委員會去處理這個不處理怎麼可以"},{"start":15675.971,"end":15702.159,"text":"注意最好,我們贊成吧因為等一下那個蔡宇跟李昆城還要發言,稍微等一下麻煩請國民黨團請發言請國民黨團對副議案請表達意見這個可能請院長我們先把大方向先要定下來"},{"start":15705.011,"end":15732.6,"text":"大方向就是到底哪一天要處理我覺得這個事情要先確定好那事實上剛剛柯總召講的我們競表啦競表之息啊但是欠然同意啊因為這個憲法訴訟法他執行單位是司法院叫行政院院長來這裡說做什麼樣的一個說明"},{"start":15736.008,"end":15761.828,"text":"做個什麼樣的一個說明到時會計法也沒有請行政院長來做這個報告所以這是風馬牛不相及的事情而且法律規定的非常清楚是得不是因所以這應該是本院內部來自行處理就好了針對行政院所提出的賦予我們自己來處理就好但是重點還是時間要先確定了"},{"start":15762.921,"end":15788.483,"text":"好不好時間先確定那我想因為柯總召這個法例高深所以我們必須時間上要榮有餘力能夠處理好不好謝謝謝謝副總召的發言台灣民眾黨團要發言好我們接下來請李坤成委員請發言因為他"},{"start":15791.325,"end":15816.396,"text":"好 來 謝謝院長那剛剛有提到就是說這個復議那復議當然要請行政院院長來立法院做說明因為復議他的這個這次限訴法修改之後大概有90%以上人民的這個申請釋憲的權利受到阻礙了那基於這一點那當然這個行政院有權利來這一個也有義務來這個立法院來做說明這是第一點"},{"start":15819.537,"end":15847.932,"text":"那第二點就是說我記得我們在12月20號已經通過了包含限訴法、選罷法、裁判法那我這邊剛好院長在這邊我也問一下院長那為什麼這個12月20號通過了這一個三個法案三個法律案之後那我們立法院只送出了這個限訴法那關於這個選罷法跟裁判法不送出去那請問一下我們的召委有這麼大的權力嗎那尤其我是在財政委員會"},{"start":15848.812,"end":15865.301,"text":"我也問過了這個召委陳玉珍我就說你當時候這個這個《財務法》不送出去的這個主要的原因主要的理由是說因為這個有可能這個114年的這個總預算要重編那所以他就扣住不發"},{"start":15866.301,"end":15890.416,"text":"但是現在這個不論是這個財政部長或是組計長都已經說得很清楚了114年度的這個總運算不會再重編所以呢陳玉珍召委他扣住了這個理由已經不存在啦那為什麼現在我們這個立法院還扣住這一個不論是選罷法或是裁判法不發那請問一下這是召委的意見還是院長你的意見"},{"start":15890.976,"end":15917.387,"text":"我覺得剛好在這個時候要把它說清楚啦你法律案通過了你就要送出去啊那接下來你不論說你行政院或是我們立法院要採取復議 釋憲或是其他的這個救濟的手段那都是符合憲政的原則原理在做嘛我們立法院沒有這麼大的權力不論是召委或是院長都可以把這個立法院已經三讀通過的法案扣住不送出去我請院長也答覆一下"},{"start":15918.027,"end":15920.329,"text":"主席還有我們各委員因為我想今天我們在討論就是我們如何處理這個復議案那確實我們有時間上的一個急迫性那剛才也有特別講到就是說因為我們還有總預算"},{"start":15940.569,"end":15942.911,"text":"說實在我們連總預算連協商都還沒有開始在進行協商那更不要說我們要用有限的院會的時間來處理我們的總預算我想總預算應該是我們全體國民更關切的尤其之前包含行政院都口口聲聲希望總預算能夠盡快的"},{"start":15962.543,"end":15982.771,"text":"能夠在立法院能夠做議事處理那另外我們剛才也講到也還卡在院長他院長要去美國參加那個川普的就職典禮那我們也希望最好能夠在一些比較重大的法案都能夠盡速的能夠把它完成"},{"start":15983.411,"end":15999.217,"text":"好那所以現在剛才在講的部分就說那到底我們這個報議案要不要邀請行政院長來做報告那這個事實上在法律上其實是得而不是因所以"},{"start":15999.597,"end":16025.67,"text":"也就是說我們在現在這麼大的一個時間壓力下那麼如果我們其實可以不用請這個行政院長來報告我們一樣能夠做出審查那當然這樣子的一個程序完全合法也合憲所以到時候可能請我們的柯總召柯大法官真的不用再講說有沒有違憲之餘所以就說我們如果"},{"start":16027.711,"end":16056.127,"text":"没有请行政院长来做说明不但合法而且在过去的案例我想因为柯总召在立法院这么多年当年在会计法会计法来做复议案的时候柯总召也是总召当时也是就是不用让行政院长没有来报告而我们立法院当时的立法院也完成了"},{"start":16056.787,"end":16071.609,"text":"附议案的审查那对于我们立法院来讲本来就是这样因为刚才总统说有时候我们可以创先例但是我们有先例我们也可以原例来办理这个先做这样说明好另外就说"},{"start":16072.35,"end":16094.923,"text":"那麼在一些復議案比如說我們在上一次的就是國會改革的復議案我們有請行政院長來做說明因為這邊牽涉到一些行政部門的配合所以當時請行政院長來做說明那確實是合理的那我們這一次是針對限訴法限訴法的主管機關是誰"},{"start":16100.928,"end":16114.005,"text":"憲法出來的基本不是行政院即便我退一萬步來說即便有任何的至愛難行之處這應該也是司法院的職權"},{"start":16115.387,"end":16143.557,"text":"如果一直在強調說我們立法院我們手不能伸那麼長我們不要去影響這個司法院我們要確立這個五權分立那請問一下如果今天針對限訴法我們一再的強調說不行一定要讓行政院長來報告那請問一下司法院難道是行政院所管轄的嗎司法院難道是行政院的這個司法部嗎不是嘛"},{"start":16145.498,"end":16163.355,"text":"所以也就是說在以所謂的五權分立按照這個我們民進黨以及現在的我們的行政院所講的這樣的一個要尊重五權分立同樣的你行政院不尊重五權分立啊而且老師說我想請問在這一次提出復議案之前"},{"start":16168.379,"end":16179.843,"text":"行政院說了 說了好多話我們也沒有看到行政院跟司法院有什麼樣的討論我沒有看到他們任何的討論討論也不用閉門會議對不對你反正都覺得立法院都是違憲 毀憲亂政你們大家可以公開說我們討論之後把立法院大罵一頓所以我們共同要提出復議案但是我也沒有看到所以我覺得第一個"},{"start":16197.828,"end":16212.333,"text":"我們就法論法第一個我們沒有必要一定要請行政院長來做說明我們即便沒有請行政院長來做說明合法第二個立法院之前有沒有"},{"start":16212.933,"end":16232.79,"text":"前例呢也有我刚才也特别提到我想柯总知道应该脑筋应该很清楚应该记忆都很清楚第三个如果你认为这个是违反权力分立原则那我们更不需要行政院来做说明那么我们前院委员会过去也有案例好我们各党派"},{"start":16233.39,"end":16247.482,"text":"派代表來做討論之後再做審查這個都是有潛力辦理的而且呢另外我們真的也念茲在茲因為我們的院會真的真的非常有限而且又必須在15天內好完成整個的這個復譽的表決那說實"},{"start":16252.967,"end":16275.14,"text":"再加上我們總預算現在也還要還沒有開始正式的我們連協商都沒有協商如果我們真的覺得總預算非常重要的話我們在復議案我們只要完備法定程序那麼我想在整個的程序表決最後的結果它絕對都是合法跟合憲以上"},{"start":16276.927,"end":16281.171,"text":"那針對這次的復議案剛剛王宏威這個首席書記長他有講到這個2013年的會計法99之一當年沒有行政院長列席那我覺得"},{"start":16293.362,"end":16318.962,"text":"要跟院長我們是不是要還原當年2013年的狀況當年是在處理特別費的儲罪那儲罪的對象有包括行政所長還有包括大學的教授那可是在修法的時候卻產生一個很大的錯誤就是說修法的最後三讀通過的條文卻少了教這個字教師的教"},{"start":16319.842,"end":16338.915,"text":"所以當時通過的會計法99之一後來只處理到行政首長沒有處理到大學的教授所以大家嘩然啦哇大家一直罵所以那個時候也是經過朝野協商之後由行政院長提出復議那立法院在最快的時間內那就把這一個復議案讓他復議案是有通過的"},{"start":16345.6,"end":16373.038,"text":"那後來做條文的修正再把大學教授補進去所以那是那個時空背景那所以如果以撇開會計法99條當年2013年的狀況我們再來看歷次的復議案呢歷次的復議案我從時間序來說2002年的財政收支劃分法他有邀請行政院長列席然後他有發言是由民進黨4人 國民黨4人 親民黨4人 台聯2人 武黨1人"},{"start":16376.3,"end":16390.648,"text":"在2003年的公民投票法的附議案那也有邀請行政院長列席發言人數是民進黨六人 國民黨六人 親民黨四人台聯 無盟都是兩人在於2004年的319的這個"},{"start":16394.05,"end":16421.217,"text":"槍擊的真相調查委員會一樣是邀請行政院長列席列席後發言人數民進黨8人 國民黨4人 親民黨4人台聯 文盟都2人在2007年的農會法跟漁會法的附議案一樣是邀請行政院長列席那發言人數當然也是就是每個政黨各推薦1人那2014年地政事法51條的修正案"},{"start":16422.037,"end":16451.326,"text":"的復議案一樣是邀請行政院長列席發言人數國民黨七民進黨七台人二五黨幾聯盟一人所以一直到今年的這個國會擴權的這個案內那發言人數就是國民黨十一民進黨十一民眾黨兩人那這個是發生在院長你當院長的年代所以我想既然院長你在主持這個立法院的議事既然有這樣的一個慣例"},{"start":16452.046,"end":16479.275,"text":"你也有處理過一次的復議案那我們認為啦 院長你就用跟國會 這個是2024 6月11號的復議案我們希望院長你就用同樣的處理方式來處理這一次的復議案 好不好謝謝好 那個 稍等一下那個國民黨團有沒有要繼續發言國民黨團有沒有要繼續發言柯總召要再一次發言沒有齁 我們請柯總召請"},{"start":16481.038,"end":16485.784,"text":"院長,對於說我們是不是一定要請行政院長來報告我想我們在立法院職權刑事法第33條規定的非常清楚"},{"start":16500.021,"end":16519.011,"text":"依照例子法第33條的規定全院文會審查時得由立法院邀請行政院院長列席說明並不是柯總召開講的說因這個邀請行政院長到我們立法院來做說明這第一點我要續明的另外就是對於說我們"},{"start":16523.88,"end":16551.717,"text":"對於說我們這個如果司法院的限訴法這樣的一個修法是不是跟行政院他的職務有關這部分我想還是要再次來跟我們社會大眾來說明清楚如果我們這一次邀請行政院長到立法院來列席做報告這個已經違反權力分立的原則也就是說行政院你不能月出代包來這個就司法院他的職長的法律由行政院長來做報告"},{"start":16553.118,"end":16570.95,"text":"行政立法司法是三權分立的互相立署的互相尊重的所以互不立署的所以有關司法院執掌的法律法律案我們立法院定定之後送到行政院"},{"start":16571.71,"end":16592.2,"text":"那行政院你只有說這個對於這個立法院的法案你予以尊重但是他有沒有涉及到違憲這部分我想不是或者你要提認為自愛男性要提復議不應該是由行政院你來提出而應該是會同司法院來做很詳盡的說明之後你再來提復議"},{"start":16593.16,"end":16616.796,"text":"但是這個法案我們從到現在為止我們都沒有看到司法院跟行政院有會嫌共同來這個做商議所以行政院長有沒有必要來這個就很清楚了所以我們認為站在權力分立的一個原則的情況之下我們立法院依法是有據的也有利可循我們是可以不用請行政院長道遠來說明謝謝林市民署長歡迎請柯總召請"},{"start":16621.716,"end":16644.732,"text":"院長、各位委員、同仁這是一個非常嚴肅的事情這個是在憲法徵收條文第三條裡面規定的請大家歡迎徵收條文第三條規定請這邊對於立法院的決議法律案、立法案、條約案、法律案包括任何治案來行的地方得經總統,得經總統何可"},{"start":16648.695,"end":16675.487,"text":"他得經總統合格,總統已經合格了嘛,一該法案送行政院10日內那法案到行政院已經10天,一定要請行政院,一定要向議員提復議案你說這個法案通過已經出了總統到行政院,行政院收到10日內一定要提出復議案"},{"start":16677.228,"end":16698.903,"text":"那實際上也照憲法的規定提出來,最後一天提出來,所以當然立法院要處理了嘛所以這個立法院處理要在15天內完成,這個照憲法徵求條例第三條來看就好了所以我們今天不知道,民事委員、黃文維委員在講什麼?沒有錯"},{"start":16700.471,"end":16720.717,"text":"這個會議案會在前委員會來處理但是他現在所談的職業刑事法讓前委員會得邀請那不一樣這憲法層次的因為要改為前委員會所以憲法層次一定要照憲法來做第一個我不知道"},{"start":16722.438,"end":16751.254,"text":"用這種來阻擋行政院長來做他那麼自然來行嘛啊為什麼行政院有關係當然立法院也有關係啊立法院可以提復議案啊我們立法院可以提事件啦可以提事件啦立法院事件以後行政院行政院也可以提事件但是呢提事件復議案不是必要的條件行政院認為自然來行他可以"},{"start":16752.458,"end":16772.655,"text":"跳過呼籲案也可以,他直接提事件是可以的因為立法院也可以提事件但是呢因為這個憲法輸送會影響到每一個院的每一個院都是憲法機關每一個院在處理他的法案他預算的時候,乃至於他事件作為上"},{"start":16773.416,"end":16796.747,"text":"都有相當嚴重的影響度所以一定要邀請行政院長來他既然已經來了他說我要來,他已經送來你不要也不行了我想比較重要就是說在憲法規定裡面數天內完成嘛剛才王國威也講到這一點我們都守了這個規定所以各位請不要放心因為"},{"start":16799.44,"end":16820.357,"text":"你就照憲法的程序來做就好了那至於剛才所談到就是說會計法那一次修正我在場的嘛那一次會計法修正就是說因為很多大學教授院長很多人因為研究計畫"},{"start":16821.857,"end":16842.752,"text":"有問題,那報章發起相同考錯,那澳神全國所有大學院院校校長、藍心理教授、院長所有人幾千個人都中了都要變成通過這條例,有時那時候黃世民講總長的時候在搞嘛,後來二一三馬上正正的把黃世民"},{"start":16844.013,"end":16872.793,"text":"在法院上他告他告輸了啦他就吹下來了所以說那時候是王世民這個酷吏一直要每一個都要在那邊辦因為他會計上用彈性智慧條例來處理有的時候憂鬱症就吵到我了大學校長那時候我們辦公室多少大學校長幫他太太教來酷訴說這個太嚴重了全國教育界風聲鶴唳每一個人都會中招"},{"start":16873.934,"end":16898.309,"text":"包括柯文哲也是一樣柯文哲的書分比較少只有10萬塊而已所以當初柯文哲因為1450的包裝問題所以他想盡辦法說那他請台北市長這過程我很清楚那柯文哲那時候常常有辦公室那有一天問我怎麼知道?你也是醫生,你怎麼從政?"},{"start":16900.39,"end":16914.443,"text":"所以我馬上跟柯文哲講一句話,你講前幾次就明講就好了他說但是現在價值要AX,我說價值要AX你就去問對啊我問你只有10萬塊而已嘛他說當初那個錢,計劃的錢他把農用去買"},{"start":16923.589,"end":16939.776,"text":"買HD還有幾塊椅子但是那些HD都漏了也丟掉了椅子也找不到了他找不到,找不到實體他就變成偉大文書找不到實體他就變成他們自己的條約找不到變成偉大文書我說沒有關係,電話請你去面對嘛後來問吳寶請回,因為這個數字太小"},{"start":16948.013,"end":16974.074,"text":"當初有很多大學校長因為大學校長他身份比較崇高做很多研究計畫包括他身上有人身上是幾億的三四億都有這是長期以來我們國家在發展科學上國會很多研究計畫補助給學術界做到非休不可但是呢那時候"},{"start":16976.57,"end":16989.252,"text":"朝野,那劉鴻慈當文黨總召,他談一談說這一定要處理,我們黨的會議,很多人都說一定要處理,因為所以呢"},{"start":16991.792,"end":17013.79,"text":"那時候處理的時候,我和我們幹事長,包含是潘文文委員,還有處理長是邱盈盈委員我們是最後黨黨會議開完,大家沒有問題我們來過去簽,我們是最後簽名的台聯那時候是林氏家委員,那工黨當然應該是林氏,我們當時候是中委執行長,那要簽完了"},{"start":17021.612,"end":17043.853,"text":"那看看都沒問題清完,去重新打的時候,那行政宋來居然少打一個叫那重要是叫職員,聽說那是黃世民做手腳的他還要堅持要把每一個人抓去,從貪污職業條例去查辦所以已經仙蘭大破"},{"start":17045.25,"end":17072.406,"text":"那一年通過的時候是2013年5月31號排在最後一個案子那時候王營長最後將近到12點的時候把這法案唸過去這法案暫時通過以後我第一個打給誰打給柯文哲我說這個已經解套了還有很多人在等待這個法案我想的就是過去歷史是千真萬確的那這個柯文哲他既然出來亂講話這也引起信仰大波"},{"start":17075.137,"end":17090.537,"text":"那後來沒有辦法,那重新來就把轎子停回去所以那次不義案,根本趕快抄一箱就可以了就把轎子拿回去,就這樣那行政院的,我現在講就是說我們要視線"},{"start":17092.304,"end":17106.8,"text":"另外一個事件啊另外一個事件要不要行政院來做復原那復原是行政院的部分所以行政院要事件也可以不呼籲也可以直接送像現在我們準備直接送事件的也很多"},{"start":17109.724,"end":17127.705,"text":"所以我今天在這裡講說,我安慰你們都不要擔心,而且你們講話都透過頁頁的憲法規定院長,這是一個非常嚴肅的事情你要怎麼排,大家來看一看,趙承熙我們要去排嘛那可以算出來,未來還有幾次院會嘛"},{"start":17128.61,"end":17149.564,"text":"至少還有四次宴會嘛,我們說要處理其他法案,當然可以處理啊但是我今天要在這裡,對王文維委員有一些更正的說法因為剛才說,你意思是說,總計算就是沒有一次是10月30日要通過那今天是1月幾號?今天是1月6號吧"},{"start":17150.945,"end":17177.837,"text":"我們總運算現在還有哪一個委員會沒有通過你知道嗎就是司法法治委員會我一直拜託國民黨說你們的召委你們要趕快排完我們趕快回來協商吳征軒委員今天當召委他既然總運算不排 法務部還沒排總運算還沒審查他還排一個他還排一個黃國昌要的而且非常離譜的 總統要的法案"},{"start":17184.096,"end":17191.142,"text":"沒有法條都是保留協商這個法案應該要先開冬季會也就是說"},{"start":17196.355,"end":17216.428,"text":"所以今天要講,你共同自己沒有任務者,到現在已經一夜的時候,要一夜的時候你總算還沒排,我要講話你安靜一點好不好?沒有問題我講話你安靜一點好不好?尊重尊重,謝謝老闆這是很關憲政體的問題"},{"start":17222.396,"end":17247.381,"text":"今天黃國昌一排一個妨礙司法公認罪這非常諷刺的黃國昌現在天天在挑戰司法柯P現在犯罪事實非常明顯28.5年他今天說要一一要上街頭要找國民黨一起上街頭要抗議司法不公然後今天排一個妨礙司法公認罪這樣臭死了"},{"start":17247.952,"end":17264.511,"text":"院長今天協商的重點嗎?所以我們就不要再抓狗欺殺你不聽你要說自己講好不好你有幹好講話柯委好謝謝柯董事長請等一下所以我今天要講一個很重要的就是說黃國威你今天一開始要跟胡志堯在吵架說總運算從來沒有奴隸完成的"},{"start":17267.731,"end":17291.682,"text":"在2016民進黨執政以後總算不可能如期完成,因為國民黨一定來叼嘛所以每次都我要去拜託,那時候非常態的時候他說要道歉,我也上來道歉從莊豐家的事情等等,包括日本市民的事情我們冷氣吞吞當總議員在演員會的時候通過但是我們在的時候,我們在的時候坦白講"},{"start":17292.802,"end":17309.848,"text":"我們還是一樣,能夠統一算,10月31號通過就通過然後就是過去當然有這個紀錄啦你是查你本人的歷史第二個就是說,讓黃衛講說公務員挑釁啦公務員挑釁說什麼在罵人"},{"start":17315.878,"end":17336.506,"text":"情緒部長說要處理很環雜公務員調薪,滿世界的退休人員調薪大家注意,全世界沒有一個行業就是說退休各位才調薪但是我們這次調一半還是有,去年再次的事發"},{"start":17337.901,"end":17354.439,"text":"退休2%那現在是3%、1.5%一定有調薪的但是為什麼沒有確定呢?因為我們沒有法治法所以有關於公務員加薪的法治法也可以處理,那個還沒有立法"},{"start":17355.16,"end":17380.095,"text":"但是這個是在總運算編列的時候可以有條性的編進去所以一定有債市和退休都有所以說不確定是因為沒有法之外,但是一定有的因為總運算已經編進去了這一點我要特別講清楚那我要講一下等一下我們今天講到軍工教育問題,因為軍工教育長期來是"},{"start":17383.257,"end":17393.402,"text":"是國民黨鐵票,那還有18%那手都踢太高所以馬英九時段兩次想要聯興改革都沒有成功,也不敢弄"},{"start":17394.608,"end":17414.345,"text":"那好不容易小英總統執政以後,我們把民進改革做完了那現在看你那檢察人員條約又要還改革,而且是違憲的所以今天我要把這些東西肆虛名另外,王滙剛才還提到,柯建民的子弟兵何不長"},{"start":17417.001,"end":17438.298,"text":"當勞動部長他講勞保撥補當然是要撥補請問勞保最後責任終於責任當然是政府嘛那勞保會不會倒坦白講沒有一次來擠的話擠對的話我們的保險都是不會倒的都是會有時間的延長那假如說"},{"start":17439.793,"end":17440.856,"text":"你弄個撥補之罪的話,那勞保誰敢做,因為現在勞工的"},{"start":17447.133,"end":17474.181,"text":"推修的,攘到的,連公務員的地板都沒有,那前兩百年公務員的地板都沒有所以這很清楚,一定要用BOB的來處理25分鐘過了,謝謝啦我今天把這些東西全部講清楚,這是一個很粗大案子的問題,所以有關於本案,請到縣委案子去處理就好好的,謝謝,謝謝柯總,副管理長,您要發言,發言完畢,我們開始進行處理,好請"},{"start":17476.424,"end":17503.543,"text":"今天謝謝柯總召約給我們上了七法全書新法讓我們能夠要準備上路柯市法典我在這裡要跟大家還有這個全院來報告一下第一個我們真的總預算迫在眉睫目前剩下的院會時間"},{"start":17505.74,"end":17517.329,"text":"尤其柯總召一直不斷地試圖要影響我們審查預算的這個期程一直希望說能不能1月15號1月15號這個院會就能夠這個會期結束"},{"start":17523.522,"end":17541.691,"text":"柯總召大法師他一再提這個15號能不能結束可是依照他現在這種態勢我們也很希望配合啦但他如果真的15號會期要結束那我們很多的事情要盡快推動包括我們的總預算總預算迫在眉睫"},{"start":17549.184,"end":17576.196,"text":"所以我想柯大法師一直在講我們要早點結束我們也都很希望早點結束但是呢如果我們很多該處理的事沒有處理好尤其是總預算我想這個誰都承擔不起這是重中之重所以我建請院長這個趕快裁定哪一天來做這個復議案的這個全院的委員會以及這個投票特別要強調"},{"start":17580.197,"end":17594.136,"text":"這個剛剛我們既然是立法院我們一定要按照我們的職權刑事法職權刑事法33條寫得非常非常清楚當復議案發生的時候我們這個行政院的院長若提出復議案西字頭的復議案的話"},{"start":17596.926,"end":17603.933,"text":"這個我們得邀請行政院院長到立法院你不要插嘴嘛到底在講話閉嘴"},{"start":17615.706,"end":17626.842,"text":"所以我們得邀請行政院長來做這樣的一個報告但是現在我們第一個看到總預算的時間這麼壓迫"},{"start":17629.387,"end":17646.672,"text":"第二個依照我們的職權行事法本來依照過去會計法的時候當然柯總統講了很多理由啦但是當時就到大法師魔法章一筆說不需要請行政院長來所以當時會計法就沒有請行政院長到院來報告"},{"start":17648.055,"end":17673.228,"text":"那除了會計法的事實以外現在比較嚴重的事情就是第一個總預算的問題第二個會期即將要結束還有第三個我們的職權刑事法就是這樣規定的當然柯總召不斷地提憲法徵修條文憲法徵修條文我就唸一次啊因為他每次講的都是語言不詳然後大家也聽不懂他講的內容到底是什麼"},{"start":17674.463,"end":17703.262,"text":"所以呢我們在這裡啊重新附送一下什麼叫憲法徵修條文這個第三條行政院對立法院決議之法律案預算案條約案認為有自然來行時得經總統之核可以該決議案送達行政院時日內以請行政院復議這個條文寫得很清楚"},{"start":17704.591,"end":17730.077,"text":"今天就是得到總統府的核可所以呢他送到立法院來提起復議案那之後全部條文就是這樣那送到立法院之後就要按照我們的職權刑事法來辦理還有一個很重要的一個重點我要再三強調現在我們的刑處法修正以後啊"},{"start":17731.702,"end":17751.684,"text":"這個院長 未來如果再有人跟你提起這樣的事情的話我們可以很清楚的說清楚憲法法庭並沒有停擺我們按照捷克制的修法要十位大法官出席 九位一致同意才能做"},{"start":17753.565,"end":17776.618,"text":"四種 四種重大的判決重大的判決第一個 違憲的判決第二個 解散政黨的判決第三個 彈劾的判決第四個 暫時處分的判決除了四大重點重大的案例判決以外其他的完全 完全"},{"start":17778.881,"end":17795.195,"text":"完全都可以來進行來受理而且幾乎絕大部分都是直接駁回現在憲法庭幾乎都直接駁回申請這個事件幾乎大部分都是直接駁回"},{"start":17796.736,"end":17825.063,"text":"所以真正現在一年違憲的判決根本沒有幾件所以真正說影響到百分之九十幾的人這是一個笑話幾乎大部分的人民澄清案都是直接駁回的所以憲法法庭並沒有停擺它還是在進行但是我們現在耐人尋味一個最重要的重點最重要的重點是什麼既然我們的職權刑事法"},{"start":17826.263,"end":17846.796,"text":"是得邀請行政院長而比較我們大家很好奇的為什麼行政院可以越主帶袍幫司法院來解釋司法院的職權難道行政院已經把立法院跟司法院都納入他的麾下"},{"start":17848.027,"end":17870.514,"text":"難道現在我們的司法院已經是立法院的司法局 司法科吧行政院的現在是不是我們總統他院長已經把司法院當作他的司法科還是司法局所以他這個常備管轄全部立法院歸他管司法院歸他管我們讓這個惡例絕對不能開"},{"start":17874.634,"end":17900.843,"text":"行政院長怎麼可以越組代表幫司法院來做解釋他的自然難行所以我覺得這個我們要堅持啦那現在主要還是要回到現在總預算的問題要不要趕快解決會期要不要提前結束還有我們第二輪的協商都還沒有開始總預算所以真的是壓迫在這個而且依照立法院職權行事法可能我們要趕快訂好時間好 謝謝"},{"start":17903.984,"end":17924.659,"text":"柯总统,容许我处理好吗,发言已经非常大,我们先把壮世代刚才党和协商沟通完毕了,现在正在整理复建,那有一个协商草稿,我先念一下,我们一步一步来,可以的话就拜托各位党和干部签字。"},{"start":17926.485,"end":17935.451,"text":"那協商主題是福利及吳春成等42位委員凝聚壯士在政策與產業發展促進法草案"},{"start":17937.373,"end":17964.643,"text":"協商結論一 法案名稱第一條至第十一條 第十五條至第二十一條 照協商結果通過 如附件二 調次 援引調次 我們授權議事人員調整三 其餘均照審查會審查結果通過四 本案願會進行處理時 依照一月三號黨團共事進行處理請問各位黨團幹部有沒有意見"},{"start":17967.011,"end":17996.194,"text":"沒有意見,我們就請簽字,好嗎?好建議那個附件,因為剛剛條文蠻多,發給大家看一下,好不好?附件印完以後就發給各位黨團看不看,我們一個一個來,好我是要看過都絕對沒問題啦然後我們也協商,那個孟愷也看過嘛,孫長遠你們三個看過"},{"start":17997.87,"end":18013.439,"text":"有,所以院長剛剛都已經有協商,而且國發會副主委也都同意請大家簽名可以給國發會看一下喔"},{"start":18122.338,"end":18148.948,"text":"那個院長,有關最後一案行政組織那個運動部,那都講好了,因為處委員會不去協商嘛那現在只剩下拿來簽一簽就好了不照程序啊你用保證的我就是不知道,我是不肯出錯,這個案子就要擺在第一竿等一下我跟你講,沒有關係大家考,你不要用我考來考去"},{"start":18153.707,"end":18162.096,"text":"吳春哲委員已經等得眉毛都變白了這個案子"},{"start":18174.568,"end":18181.971,"text":"腳趙一個一個來,那我們第五案怎麼可能簽走呢?運動部大家都講好了,你要抵制的話沒有關係我們看你怎麼來"},{"start":18188.212,"end":18210.178,"text":"這事先拿來簽一簽就好,我們專心來討論嘛,討論先好訴訟那院長你聽我講話,有關於錢三英的部分,就協商,叫總統趕快提案嘛提案怎麼談判,我們記錄協商審析,這很簡單嘛後面的案沒有了後面哪一個案?我們再整齊好了不是"},{"start":18211.755,"end":18237.88,"text":"好,那你明天再來談有關於這個,沒有,你這個,等一下等一下,選案場合要不要來練習,這個還沒談完啊,那明天再來談也沒有關係啊沒有共識啊什麼叫沒有共識,你聽我講完不要走蕙琦請坐好"},{"start":18239.295,"end":18253.528,"text":"我第一次看到你竟然有點認識能力,但我亂講一通你那個是你們孫永軍那一流的啊你們的憲法學者亂講,你也跟著韓財學部你還會講話,還會講憲法來請坐下來聽第一個"},{"start":18266.118,"end":18288.31,"text":"市縣本來就是從八八到正常結算四個但是人民可不可以來申請市縣 當然可以所以大法官以後就是把這個造法了人民就可以來申請市縣了只要這樣的話 趙副委員講話人民市縣市縣都請駁回 亂講一通人民市縣市縣太多"},{"start":18291.218,"end":18315.696,"text":"所以說了以後就都是程序要開會也要照憲判來處理的所以分析不要亂講話所以他還懂得到捷克模式我們要捷克模式我們要入法所以你們自己提的法是十個九個你要到捷克模式是八個八個捷克事件那也可以啊要敢嗎"},{"start":18318.577,"end":18346.89,"text":"那什麼叫結構模式?我們聽不懂,是不足的就可以失憲嗎?所以問題是公民齁,我目前是往今之流的人,才可以叫他亂講一通等一下,院長再讓我講一次等一下,我講很清楚,這很重要,人民失憲的時候,第一要走裁定裁定當然要走裁定,然後修憲,修憲以後要三個大法官"},{"start":18348.198,"end":18357.594,"text":"來看,一字結的話當然就要實現,沒有一字結的話當然要有理由書要寫很清楚,為什麼你這個實現,來生理實現我不給你手要不然退回"},{"start":18362.392,"end":18387.331,"text":"先說是我修的,108年我曾參與審議以前不必理由書,現在我幫大家同意要背理由書,而且沒有用自私的我要形成事先很重要的事情,人民權益為什麼可以民法退回所以要講很清楚,一定要寫很清楚第二個,至於有關於總預算現在怎麼排?二輪總預算被國民黨卡到現在...現在...現在..."},{"start":18392.915,"end":18400.4,"text":"你跟我們離開好不好你不要這樣就出去了我們也不同意我要表達說我們也不同意我們的行政院院長來報告因為我覺得也不必要"},{"start":18422.774,"end":18444.647,"text":"你們連自己的教室都不要通過了嗎?就是說我們現在學生就要講學生的嘛不要再講說你過去怎麼樣怎麼樣我們知道你要教訓你的子孫就回家教訓我們民進黨的子孫教訓不要在這邊一直教訓大家出去不出去不是你決定"},{"start":18446.488,"end":18450.91,"text":"我插嘴就是...怪小姐啦好...好...好...好...好...好...好...好...好..."},{"start":18463.477,"end":18470.023,"text":"現在我們不要再講 插話是應該的啊我們現在主席做裁決我們院長就太好了 一直在奢侈一個改島不要亂了啦 你們才是亂啦你講了一大堆說什麼呢等一下院長你唸了什麼 我沒有聽到耶"},{"start":18489.313,"end":18501.039,"text":"現在是怎樣?蔓越正在掩護你,你剛剛唸了什麼?沒人聽到?院長?院長不要管啦就這樣?就這樣?憲法中心你也想要表決,你弄看看我保證你這事現在完全破功"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T14:09:42.710000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:09:47.714000+08:00","text":"謝謝各位黨團幹部，謝謝各位列席官員及本院所有工作夥伴。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T14:09:48.634000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:09:49.975000+08:00","text":"今天（1 月 6 日）的協商是按\n照 1 月 3 日各黨團的共識來繼續進行朝野協商。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T14:09:56.415000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:10:08.157000+08:00","text":"在這裡要特別拜託各位黨團幹部，今天協商無\n論如何氣氛能夠融洽一點，大家能夠友善一點，這可能是我最後一次主持朝野協商，因為我馬\n上就要被罷免了！","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T14:10:08.498000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:10:11.538000+08:00","text":"所以請大家多多給個面子，氣氛很重要！","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T14:10:12.518000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:10:21+08:00","text":"我先介紹一下今天列席的各位官員，首先歡迎交通部陳政務次長，熱情歡迎您！","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T14:10:21.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:10:22.400000+08:00","text":"觀光署周署\n長，熱情歡迎！","quality":1},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T14:10:22.400000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T14:10:24.074000+08:00","text":"部長為什麼沒有來？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳次長彥伯","start":"2025-01-06T14:10:24.074000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T14:10:25.748000+08:00","text":"去參加考察。","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T14:10:25.748000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T14:10:27.422000+08:00","text":"院長，我有一點意見，他去考察，我們朝野協商沒有考察重要嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:10:27.422000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T14:10:29.096000+08:00","text":"院長同意就可以吧！對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T14:10:29.096000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:10:30.177000+08:00","text":"稍微等一下，我先介紹一下現場的貴賓、來賓還有官員，我先介紹一下。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T14:10:52.781000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:11:03.691000+08:00","text":"還有教育部李副處長，歡迎您；法務部廖參事，熱情歡迎您；司法院何法官，熱情歡迎您！","quality":0.853},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T14:11:05.232000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:11:09.055000+08:00","text":"各位黨團幹部，現在我們就根據 1 月 3 日的共識來進行朝野協商。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T14:11:09.315000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:11:16.722000+08:00","text":"交通部最後再跟陳部長轉\n達一下，朝野協商因為是院長親自主持，請各部會首長能夠優先出席，這一點麻煩帶到。","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T14:11:16.882000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:11:25.867000+08:00","text":"現在進行第一個協商案──發展觀光條例第二條及第七十條之二條文修正草案。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T14:11:30.649000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:11:31.610000+08:00","text":"請傅崐萁總\n召發言。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T14:11:33.290000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:11:49.898000+08:00","text":"我有程序問題要先跟院長報告一下，朝野協商各政黨三長要到場來討論，或是政黨代\n表要到，一個部長怎麼可以自己沒有來？","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T14:11:51.756000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:11:59.263000+08:00","text":"當然我們尊重院長，你同意他請假，我們絕對尊重院\n長，但是希望以後這樣的例不要再繼續開，好不好？謝謝。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T14:11:59.263000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T14:12:03.036500+08:00","text":"我跟傅總召說明一下，因為我不知道，剛剛陳次長來，我才曉得部長……","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T14:12:03.036500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T14:12:06.810000+08:00","text":"那更不應該啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T14:12:06.810000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:12:07.290000+08:00","text":"那更不應該啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T14:12:08.071000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:12:10.433000+08:00","text":"他連跟院長請假都沒有，那我們朝野協商是……","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T14:12:11.054000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:12:13.876000+08:00","text":"沒關係，請陳次長轉達朝野協商要優先，好不好？","quality":0.684},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T14:12:15.818000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:12:17.519000+08:00","text":"我們現在來進行第一案。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T14:12:18.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:12:26.947000+08:00","text":"1 月 3 日大家已經講好了，我們就順著一案、一案來溝通，發展觀光\n協 6\n條例的部分首先請各黨團表達意見。","quality":0.805},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T14:12:28.449000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:12:31.251000+08:00","text":"蔡書記長，你舉手了嗎？沒有。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T14:12:31.792000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:12:32.933000+08:00","text":"哪一位要表達意見？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T14:12:32.933000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T14:12:39.886000+08:00","text":"請王鴻薇。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T14:12:39.886000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:12:49.654000+08:00","text":"我先講一下，事實上我們在上個星期五朝野協商，大家已經基本有共識，明天可以進\n入逐條來做處理。","quality":0.78},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T14:12:50.635000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:13:25.856000+08:00","text":"事實上，上個星期五我們也已經進行了廣泛討論，在這一部分我想各黨對於\n自己的基本態度其實都講得非常清楚，當然，以國民黨黨團的態度，我們會希望發展觀光條例\n因為事實上這些條文裡面大概有 6 條是民進黨王美惠委員的提案，我們也予以尊重，然後在院\n會裡面其實也有很多條文基本上也是院會會討論出來的。","quality":0.847},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T14:13:27.617000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:13:59.191000+08:00","text":"明天需要處理的一條大概就是有關展\n延五年的問題，這個部分雖然各黨團可能還有不同的意見，但是在上個星期五，大家也有一致\n的共識，就是明天我們在逐條處理的時候，仍然會就一些比較具有爭議性的條文來做一些論述\n，討論之後，我們還是在進行議事處理，所以我想今天這個條文應該是非常簡單的，以上，謝\n謝。謝謝。","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T14:13:59.191000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:14:06.174000+08:00","text":"請柯建銘總召，台灣民眾黨請準備。","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:14:06.174000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:14:25.967000+08:00","text":"上禮拜的朝野協商，持平而論，院長不在，由副院長主持，副院長主持大概有主持跟\n沒有主持一樣，都是我們黨團自己在談。","quality":0.837},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:14:25.967000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:14:47.530000+08:00","text":"那一個很簡單的事情，可以 10 分鐘談完了，被傅崐萁\n以及黃國昌耍，傅崐萁講完了之後，他的條件我們全部答應，他趕快跑，然後王鴻薇再反對，\n這樣這樣刁來刁去……\n我講話你注意聽，我都是陳述事實，笑聲小一點，高興表現在臉上就好了，好不好？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:14:50.935000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:14:54.881000+08:00","text":"重新開\n始，高興寫在臉上就好了，好不好？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:14:56.504000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:15:10.429000+08:00","text":"所以 9 點半開始，在國是論壇以後，一個簡單、10 分鐘可\n以談完的事情，搞到了下午才把它表決，一再刁難。","quality":0.65},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:15:10.429000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:15:30.723000+08:00","text":"往前看的時候，大家對於未來這兩個法案\n早就有共識，因為我一直講一個事情，我跟傅崐萁講一個是總召講的事情，就是我們要揚棄這\n一屆以來韓院長所主持院會的樣態，什麼樣態呢？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:15:31.903000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:15:47.086000+08:00","text":"過去 30 年來沒有人敢這樣做，我們立法院的\n周秘書長等一下也應該回答一下，可以包起來，占領主席台，然後點名表決？","quality":0.766},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:15:47.086000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:15:52.187000+08:00","text":"兩次如此，在擴\n權法案和這次三個法案，可以如此？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:15:54.728000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:16:15.748000+08:00","text":"過去沒有，過去王院長的時候，就是一再協商，院長是調\n和鼎鼐，這在立法院組織法第三條規定得很清楚，院長必須退出政黨，不能有黨職，然後要中\n立，要調和鼎鼐，王院長做得最徹底。","quality":0.726},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:16:18.249000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:17:03.821000+08:00","text":"再往後面一點，換蘇嘉全前院長、游錫堃前院長，至少\n要表決前，一定要有朝野協商，不管協商的次數多寡，一定奉行要有協商，協商以後沒有結論\n，沒有關係，才能讓大家簽名，就是沒有結論，那麼依照議事程序處理，依照議事程序處理就\n是每一個人都可以發言，這是展現高度民主程序，所以我一直跟傅崐萁講，我們要重新建立立\n法院、重塑立法院的新文化，以後大家不要再吵架了啦、不要再打架了啦。","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:17:05.608000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:17:06.509000+08:00","text":"由來是什麼？","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:17:06.669000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:17:13.095000+08:00","text":"因為\n國民黨占領主席台，有人要衝上去，有人又被丟下來，這是何其危險的事情啊！","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:17:14.236000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:17:23.285000+08:00","text":"這已經構成了\n蓄意謀殺的現行犯，可以提告的，這非常危險，可以把他甩到地上，然後用腳踩？","quality":0.811},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:17:25.186000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:17:36.327000+08:00","text":"身為民進黨\n黨團總召，我真的看不下去，雖然國民黨現在是身體很健康，但頭腦不見得很好，那就是孔武\n有力。","quality":0.773},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:17:40.268000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:17:43.288000+08:00","text":"協 7\n韓院長，我請問你，這種情形可以再繼續下去嗎？","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:17:43.288000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:18:09.546000+08:00","text":"所以我很抱歉提……對於這次三個法案，\n既然院會經過所有程序，不復議也處理了，竟然可以扣住，陳玉珍召委以及徐欣瑩召委說不能\n送出立法院，這樣太離譜了！","quality":0.781},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:18:10.447000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:18:13.911000+08:00","text":"哪一個經過院會表決過了，而且在大家衝突下表決，然後說……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T14:18:19.157000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:18:21.118000+08:00","text":"跟發展觀光條例有關係嗎？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:18:21.118000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:18:22.359000+08:00","text":"這有牽連性，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T14:18:22.359000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T14:18:23.379000+08:00","text":"講歷史了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:18:23.379000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:18:26.801000+08:00","text":"你不要緊張，明天只有表決三個條文而已啦！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:18:27.422000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:18:28.622000+08:00","text":"而且一定會表決嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:18:29.283000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:18:35.886000+08:00","text":"所以今天我們要把這些東西講清楚，我們今天要的只是發言紀錄\n而已，所以請你稍微忍耐。","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:18:37.907000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:18:43.912000+08:00","text":"明天一定表決，三條表決而已，表決前一個人發言 1 分鐘而已，才 3\n分鐘而已嘛！","quality":0.467},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:18:45.753000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:18:47.874000+08:00","text":"明天的議程絕對是很順利和平的！","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:18:49.415000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:19:13.334000+08:00","text":"所以我一直主張，我跟傅崐萁講，我們來重塑\n立法院文化，以後就照民主程序走，發言後、協商後有結論就照結論處理，結論如果只剩一條\n就是一條，沒有結論就綜合發言，協商過後，要幾個人發言都講好，這才是立法院以後都要這\n樣做的。","quality":0.737},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:19:14.175000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:19:23.423000+08:00","text":"我希望……就像那兩次你們拚死拚活，像我交代的這種行為應該成為歷史遺跡，以後\n不要再爭吵互打了。","quality":0.463},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:19:29.395000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:19:40.921000+08:00","text":"韓院長剛才自己也很有趣，都是老同事了，他很會調侃自己博君一粲，他說這可能是他最後\n一次主持朝野協商，我們不希望一語成讖。","quality":0.63},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:19:43.583000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:19:44.863000+08:00","text":"不要緊，我們大家都是老兄弟，就是互相開個玩笑。","quality":0.35},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:19:48.225000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:19:48.605000+08:00","text":"我為什麼要發動罷免院長？","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:19:48.605000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:20:05.482000+08:00","text":"當年\n施前主席──施明德和劉松藩選院長差一票，結果他嚇到把立法委員互選院長副院長辦法馬上\n改。","quality":0.628},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:20:07.984000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:20:17.108000+08:00","text":"選舉是二分之一，罷免是三分之二，所以是非常剛性的，院長做得很穩。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:20:18.248000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:20:34.177000+08:00","text":"然後每次改選院\n長，都由最資深的立委來主持院長選舉，所以韓院長也知道，你選舉是我主持的，我發當選證\n書給你，所以我有權利和義務來提點你這些歷史讓你瞭解。","quality":0.779},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:20:36.492000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:20:49.937000+08:00","text":"我也發當選證書給游錫堃前院長，\n發當選證書給蘇嘉全前院長，我們是老同事，我發當選證書給你，我還跟你講了一番話，在後\n面。","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:20:51.698000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:21:37.840000+08:00","text":"我今天要講的是，我還找不到一條法律和憲法，立法院三讀通過而且經過復議程序，但我就\n是想不透，不管怎樣我就是看不種，你們都先去排隊了，在前門排隊排了好幾天，淒風苦雨、\n一路喊話地呈孤臣孽子狀，好不容易占到主席台又表決、衝突了一整天，你們現在竟然不敢把\n三讀通過的法案送到總統府以及行政院，視憲法第七十二條共同違憲為必然。","quality":0.664},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:21:39.281000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:21:39.881000+08:00","text":"憲法第七十二條\n在講什麼呢？","quality":0.417},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:21:41.002000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:21:53.186000+08:00","text":"憲法第七十二條是說，立法院通過的法律案要送總統府和行政院，總統收到以後\n10 日內必須公告，這很清楚。","quality":0.721},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:21:54.627000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:22:06.590000+08:00","text":"但不知道各位，在臺灣民主化都這麼久的今天，我們竟然看到立\n法院可以澈底毀憲亂政。","quality":0.694},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:22:09.651000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:22:12.311000+08:00","text":"韓院長，就從這一屆開始，大家是不是要想一想這個事情呢？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:22:15.392000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:22:30.396000+08:00","text":"傅崐萁\n雖然霸氣十足，但是你仗著武力，你們藍白過半，然後一聲令下，你底下的莽夫就衝撞，要把\n民進黨當小雞處理。","quality":0.766},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:22:32.424000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:22:37.305000+08:00","text":"我只是告訴你，你不要忘記，立法院還有個柯總召，好不好？","quality":0.565},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:22:37.965000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:22:47.727000+08:00","text":"我今天拿著\n拐杖來，就是要仗義執言，要棒打藍白，你們自己小心一點。協 8","quality":0.586},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:22:48.927000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:22:50.367000+08:00","text":"還沒有，這才引言而已啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T14:22:50.367000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T14:22:52.597500+08:00","text":"怎麼才引言？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T14:22:52.597500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T14:22:54.828000+08:00","text":"是不要有時間限制？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:22:54.828000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:22:57.948000+08:00","text":"好，我們回來發展觀光條例，要回來是不是？","quality":0.706},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:23:00.069000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:23:04.699000+08:00","text":"韓院長既然講得這麼客氣，我豈可不順從呢？","quality":0.722},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:23:06.720000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:23:07.140000+08:00","text":"恭敬不如從命。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T14:23:07.140000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T14:23:09.861000+08:00","text":"引言就 13 分鐘了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:23:09.861000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:23:10.261000+08:00","text":"我可以引 130 分鐘，但你不可以走喔！","quality":0.385},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:23:10.261000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T14:23:13.722000+08:00","text":"我可以一直直播到明天作為 filibuster，記者會\n就算講 1 個鐘頭你也不會聽啦！","quality":0.108},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:23:13.722000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:23:33.577000+08:00","text":"我會把記者會講的話全部文字化在我的臉書上面，有空就拜讀\n，對你一定很有幫助……","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"陳委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T14:23:33.577000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T14:23:39.641000+08:00","text":"一定留言……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:23:39.641000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:24:02.063000+08:00","text":"我們今天要談的就是，我們是一個行憲的法治國，遵守憲法很重要，有關於救國團之\n類的，大家想一想，韓院長、我們這些老人在高中的時候大概曾經參加過救國團的縱走中橫，\n這個大家都走過吧！","quality":0.785},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:24:04.005000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:24:07.988000+08:00","text":"我不知道韓院長或在座各位知道救國團是什麼時候成立的嗎？","quality":0.731},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:24:07.988000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:24:09.149000+08:00","text":"救國團是在我誕生以後的隔一\n年成立的，我是民國 40 年誕生的，救國團是民國 41 年成立的，那時候是老蔣時代，主任是誰\n？","quality":0.66},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:24:23.562000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:24:33.106000+08:00","text":"當然是蔣經國，它是一個威權體制下的遺緒，它成立的時候全名叫什麼？","quality":0.724},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:24:34.166000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:24:52.835000+08:00","text":"中國青年反共救國\n團，曾幾何時，現在是中國青年救國團，「反共」不見了，在民國 89 年以後，「反共」不見了\n，現在「反共」都不見了，還做違法民宿。","quality":0.623},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:24:55.477000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:25:13.087000+08:00","text":"整個救國團的緣由，大家很清楚，以前是直接隸屬\n於國防部，後來改為行政院監管，這個就很清楚的，它是國民黨的附隨組織。","quality":0.72},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:25:17.679000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:25:37.545000+08:00","text":"2016 年我們提出不當黨產條例以後，7 月 15 日是當初解嚴的時候，那天我們把不當黨產三讀\n通過，這是我提的，所以歷史的空間都有它一定的意義。","quality":0.679},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:25:37.705000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:26:26.888000+08:00","text":"不當黨產條例通過以後，黨產會就開\n始追索不當黨產，追索國民黨的附隨組織，包括救國團、婦聯會等等，一大堆，不當黨產委員\n會開始展開追索，但是救國團、國民黨拒不還，到高等行政法院打訴訟，也贏了，到最高行政\n法院打訴訟，都贏了，甚至救國團去釋憲，釋憲也沒有用，它本來就是附隨組織，不當黨產是\n要交出來的，所以要救國團交出來，交給不當黨產委員會，是合法合憲的手段。","quality":0.662},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:26:28.209000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:26:35.795000+08:00","text":"各位可以聽，韓院長，我們老人都知道這個歷史，我們來回憶這個東西。","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:26:35.795000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:27:12.727000+08:00","text":"這段歷史大家想一\n想，我們要走出威權時期，所以當年促進轉型條例也是我提的，它是一個框架式立法，就是要\n追求真相，有真相才有和解，然後司法平復，還有不義遺址，要找出不義遺址，在這樣的情況\n底下，最後就是黨產條例，這四個框架立法，我們今天就談到救國團這個事情……","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:27:14.388000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:27:20.873000+08:00","text":"既然救國團的部分已經被判為違憲，要它繳出來，此時此刻救國團是什麼樣態？","quality":0.688},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:27:20.873000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:27:59.096000+08:00","text":"大家\n想一想，救國團，包括以前的主任，有些都是大家年輕時的朋友，不管藍綠，我們都走過救國\n團那個時代，救國團後來是葛永光來負責，現在是葛永光來負責，所以大家想一想，歷史已經\n翻頁了，威權時期已經過去了，轉型正義條例也通過了，轉型正義條例是在規定什麼？","quality":0.716},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:27:59.096000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:28:12.441000+08:00","text":"是國民\n協 9\n黨實施戒嚴以後到解嚴，金門是最晚解嚴的，是最慢的，到 81 年才解嚴，這段時間所發生的事\n情，不分族群、藍綠，一概來適用。","quality":0.538},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:28:14.081000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:28:32.703000+08:00","text":"今天我們談到這裡就是面對不當黨產的部分已經釋憲出來了，它是屬於附隨組織，它必須繳\n還，不當黨產必須交給國家，要交給國家的時候，救國團現在還在頑強抵抗，它產生什麼問題\n呢？","quality":0.618},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:28:34.584000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:28:42.469000+08:00","text":"非法營業，它轉作民宿嚴重漏稅，它非常嚴重漏稅！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:28:44.738000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:28:47.819000+08:00","text":"這個東西在國家法律上豈可放著不處\n理呢？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:28:48.900000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:28:59.143000+08:00","text":"在國家法律上，這些當然已經走完所有程序，釋憲也已經輸了，高行、最高行都輸了，\n趕快交出來就好了。","quality":0.805},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:29:00.063000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:29:08.046000+08:00","text":"今天我們看到國民黨，等一下看國民黨怎麼講，包括今天來的民眾黨，很\n可惜黃國昌沒有來，不然……","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T14:29:08.046000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T14:29:12.609000+08:00","text":"等一下就會來，等你唸完經他就來了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:29:12.609000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:29:13.931000+08:00","text":"我唸久一點，我把他 call 來好不好？","quality":0.438},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:29:14.793000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:29:15.474000+08:00","text":"來，等一下，這是重點……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:29:16.596000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:29:17.898000+08:00","text":"那沒關係，那不重要。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:29:28.135000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:30:03.621000+08:00","text":"所以我現在告訴各位，大家共同去思考一個事情，救國團從民\n國 41 年開始搞到今天，後來蔣經國當主任，後來搞到葛永光，這是威權時期的遺緒，那時候還\n有黃復興黨部，還有劉少康辦公室，還有王昇，那種威權時代全部結束的時候，今天大家應該\n共同迎向一個新的民主時代，怎麼國民黨還可以提案讓救國團再延五年？","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:30:04.601000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:30:29.126000+08:00","text":"我現在講一個很嚴肅的問題，只要今天國民黨敢表決這個法案，我先善意提醒，已經被判違\n憲的東西，你要再把它延長，那就馬上面對一個貪污治罪條例的圖利，你就表決一下，你就是\n既遂犯了，你們每一個人都要面對官司，圖利他人至少五年以上，所以請國民黨慎思。","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:30:31.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:31:37.357000+08:00","text":"然後大\n家要有憲政觀念、要有法治觀念，只要國民黨敢表決這個，已經被判違憲了，已經是違憲了，\n而且要關門了，今年年底要結束營業，你要給它延五年，讓它繼續營利，這是圖利的個案，所\n以馬上會造成貪污治罪條例的圖利罪，國民黨整黨我都應該會按鈴申告，你自己想一想，違憲\n的東西可以……\n我現在告訴大家，去年大法庭做重新解釋，有關貪污治罪條例到底是實質影響力還是法定職\n權說，後來阿扁的時候，就被用實質影響力把他抓去關，林益世是用法定職權，現在最高法院\n、大法庭重新解釋，全部用實質影響力，用在每一個公務員，就是像我們這樣的廣義公務人員\n。","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:31:37.357000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:31:47.834000+08:00","text":"還有一個公職人員利益衝突迴避法，公職人員利益衝突迴避法是怎麼規定的？","quality":0.656},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:31:49.175000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:32:08.425000+08:00","text":"就是要利益迴\n避，沒有利益迴避的話當然會有刑責，就有問題，所以當大法庭統一解釋這個是實質影響力的\n時候，檢察官再扣住公職人員利益衝突迴避法，這連圖利他人或圖利自己都有不同樣態。","quality":0.838},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:32:12.027000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:32:15.448000+08:00","text":"過去\n新北市一個副議長叫陳文治，因為他回國的時候……","quality":0.591},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T14:32:16.168000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:32:19.449000+08:00","text":"主席，對不起，我們可不可以有些時間限制？","quality":0.706},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T14:32:19.949000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:32:21.790000+08:00","text":"因為我們還有好幾個案子……","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:32:21.790000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T14:32:25.310000+08:00","text":"明天就表決……","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T14:32:25.310000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:32:30.892000+08:00","text":"沒有，我們如果就事論事，就這個法案，已經半個小時過去了……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:32:30.892000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T14:32:32.612000+08:00","text":"你也可以相同時間……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T14:32:32.612000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:32:34.372000+08:00","text":"已經都扯到天寶遺事了。","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:32:34.473000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:32:36.853000+08:00","text":"沒有，現在在講重點，警告你們，我要講重點了。對啊！","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T14:32:37.474000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:32:37.955000+08:00","text":"掌握一下時間吧！","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T14:32:38.095000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:32:38.416000+08:00","text":"我們這麼多人的時間。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:32:38.516000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:32:40.820000+08:00","text":"因為被判圖利，他下飛機的時候馬上被上手銬送地檢署，所以我在這裡告訴國民黨，\n你們自己要小心……","quality":0.756},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:32:41.260000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:33:08.508000+08:00","text":"這是違憲的，而且違法的，你們去表決，結果構成圖利，你不是圖利老百姓，你是圖\n利一家民宿，所以在這裡提出善意的提醒，假如聽不下去的話，你就把它當作我亂講話，馬耳\n東風，沒有關係，胡言亂語。","quality":0.671},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:33:15.420000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:33:17.921000+08:00","text":"我在這裡告訴各位，現在是國民黨垃圾時間，國民黨即將走入歷史焚化爐了，你們自\n己要小心。","quality":0.816},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T14:33:17.961000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:33:18.221000+08:00","text":"柯總召，後臺領五百。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:33:18.241000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:33:20.041000+08:00","text":"本席已經善盡告知了。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:33:20.481000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:33:22.962000+08:00","text":"你們可以用和我發言的同樣時間來跟我辯論，甚至是兩倍時間，我都可以接受。","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:33:22.962000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T14:33:43.787000+08:00","text":"洪孟楷，不要發呆，好好想一想我的提醒。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T14:33:43.787000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:33:43.807000+08:00","text":"柯總召謝謝，台灣民眾黨請發言。","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T14:33:43.948000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:33:43.968000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T14:33:55.943000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:33:57.764000+08:00","text":"為什麼剛才我說就讓總召你唸一唸，我等一下再來講？","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T14:33:57.764000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:34:22.311000+08:00","text":"事實上我要陳述一\n下，我們禮拜五本來是 10 點要開會，結果柯總召在那邊盧了老半天，盧到 2 點才有辦法開會，\n331 是他的原則，551 也是他的原則，只要在立法院，都是他的原則。","quality":0.788},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T14:34:22.311000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:34:34.095000+08:00","text":"所以在協商的時候，就是\n要照他的命令、照他的條款、照他的規定才能開會，如果沒有照他的話，就不能開會。","quality":1},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T14:34:34.095000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:34:34.455000+08:00","text":"我們為\n什麼要一直在裡面跟他開兩、三個小時？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T14:34:34.455000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:34:34.515000+08:00","text":"我怕得肺癌啊！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T14:34:41.582000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:34:53.652000+08:00","text":"他的菸一支、一支一直抽，我們坐在\n那邊跟他協商，韓院長，你要注意，可能會得肺癌，每次協商都一直在抽菸，我們都受不了…\n…","quality":0.776},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2025-01-06T14:34:53.652000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T14:34:55.994000+08:00","text":"身體很好的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T14:34:55.994000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:34:56.534000+08:00","text":"所以抽菸很好？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2025-01-06T14:34:56.534000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T14:34:57.534000+08:00","text":"我哪有說抽菸很好？我說……","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T14:34:56.934000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:34:57.895000+08:00","text":"不然你就安靜，別人在講話，你不要插嘴！","quality":0.688},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2025-01-06T14:34:57.895000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T14:35:07.919000+08:00","text":"你也要講剛剛好……","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T14:35:07.919000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:35:10.881000+08:00","text":"什麼剛剛好，你們總召講到五四三，你還說剛剛好！","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T14:35:11.681000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:35:12.821000+08:00","text":"睜眼說瞎話！","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T14:35:12.821000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:35:19.084000+08:00","text":"本來我們在協商，我們希望要講的是議題，協商就是要開會……議題……","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T14:35:19.084000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T14:35:20.084000+08:00","text":"安靜啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T14:35:19.084000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:35:20.045000+08:00","text":"就是要回應你們總召。","quality":1},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T14:35:20.285000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:35:21.725000+08:00","text":"說了一大堆，都說一些五四三，所以就是老番顛，我們尊重！","quality":0.739},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T14:35:32.710000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:35:34.512000+08:00","text":"尊重他說 30 年，但是\n不能因為 30 年，我們就要尊重他亂講話，難道是他講得算嗎？","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T14:35:34.532000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:35:34.712000+08:00","text":"浪費很多人的時間！","quality":1},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T14:35:34.712000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:36:00.214000+08:00","text":"所以今天我\n們來這邊協商的時候，也是一樣要針對議題去講，這樣才能達到效果，不是在講過去，大家都\n要創新，大家都要往前走，不是像他每天在講過去，講得落落長。","quality":0.716},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T14:36:00.754000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:37:13.972000+08:00","text":"所以我們希望今天講的就是\n發展觀光條例第二條及第七十條之二條文修正的重點，第一個，我們修法的要求就是，在 104\n年修法要求特定對象，就是國軍、教師、勞工、青年學生、香客、登山客、公教人員等，其住\n宿場所需要 10 年完成旅館的登記，即在今年 2 月 4 日前，但是到現在我們都還沒有看到，對於\n這個主要的問題，我們希望特定的對象以及住宿的需求要滿足我們的旅館以及我們需要的地方\n，還有觀光、休閒產業等，還有政府、業者、民眾三方要怎麼樣去達成共識，讓他們不要受到\n影響。","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T14:37:13.972000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:37:28.988000+08:00","text":"所以我們是建議，像禮拜五當天我們協商，這個也在我們的協商當中，那一天我們本來要表\n決三個法案，但是柯總召不想開會，一直盧，就說一個就好、一個就好，到最後我們也同意只\n有表決一個法案。","quality":0.887},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T14:37:29.048000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:38:02.711000+08:00","text":"所以今天來這邊有很多我們要協商的，希望我們要針對發展觀光條例以及壯\n世代，還有其他的，針對這樣的議題來協商、達成共識，讓全世界、全臺灣的人站到我們這邊\n，協商要講的是，我們要怎麼樣互相討論、達成共識，而不是去講別人怎麼樣、別人怎麼樣或\n是過去怎麼樣，我覺得真的是浪費很多時間，真的！","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T14:38:02.731000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:38:26.560000+08:00","text":"不管任何人，時間都很寶貴，每一個看到\n電視的人，都是希望來學習立法院怎麼去開會、立法院怎麼樣為了國家去訂定一些福國利民的\n條款，而不是每天都在那邊吵架。","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T14:38:26.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:38:27.941000+08:00","text":"所以拜託民進黨，不要為了自己的表現一直在那邊講一堆，\n我希望是這樣。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T14:38:27.941000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:39:03.986000+08:00","text":"今天也是，因為我們的總召還在司法那邊開會，所以我們希望大家在這裡真正\n的把每一條、每一條講出來，達成共識才不會造成明天大家翻臉，或者是大家就在那邊吵、在\n那邊打，全世界都不想看到這種畫面。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T14:39:04.886000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:39:06.647000+08:00","text":"以上，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T14:39:06.647000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:39:07.327000+08:00","text":"謝謝麥玉珍委員發言。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T14:39:08.628000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:39:14.850000+08:00","text":"照麥玉珍委員的發言，我這個院長很可憐，要被罷免，又已經得肺癌\n了，很可憐！","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T14:39:15.010000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:39:16.251000+08:00","text":"現在請傅崐萁總召發言。","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T14:39:16.931000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:39:17.471000+08:00","text":"吳思瑤幹事長，請準備。","quality":1},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T14:39:21.895000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:39:31.698000+08:00","text":"院長，第一題剛剛民進黨已經表達立場，很清楚，所以第一題就結束了，我們開始進\n行第二題了，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T14:39:31.818000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:39:40.860000+08:00","text":"第一條沒有共識，他以前是從 30 年前講起，現在從民國 40 年講起，現\n在從七十幾年前開始講起，也差不多講完了。","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T14:39:43.480000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:39:45.861000+08:00","text":"院長，第二案警察人員條例的部分……","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T14:39:45.861000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T14:39:47.558500+08:00","text":"我們第一案可以作結論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:39:47.558500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T14:39:49.256000+08:00","text":"等一下，我還沒發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T14:39:49.256000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:39:51.258000+08:00","text":"再忍耐一下？好。協 12","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:39:51.258000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T14:39:54.683000+08:00","text":"要充分討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T14:39:54.683000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T14:39:58.108000+08:00","text":"謝謝傅總召。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T14:39:58.108000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T14:40:01.533000+08:00","text":"接下來請吳思瑤幹事長發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T14:40:01.533000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T14:40:04.958000+08:00","text":"我還沒有發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T14:40:04.958000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T14:40:08.383000+08:00","text":"我只是會議詢問。","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T14:40:08.383000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:41:08.094000+08:00","text":"我想在這裡，柯總召在立法院真的是讓很多新進的立委，能夠在這裡知道怎麼樣來修\n練人生的品格，要面對這樣魑魅魍魎的精神教育，還要新進能夠抱元守一，在不斷地忍耐中才\n能夠成長，我們要特別謝謝柯總召給這麼多青年孩子來到立法院服務，能夠給大家有一個磨練\n的機會。","quality":0.887},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T14:41:08.094000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:41:32.062000+08:00","text":"不過我還是要回到上個禮拜五，上個禮拜五也是依往例，因為上個禮拜五跟明天（禮\n拜二）是一次會，但在這一次會裡面柯總召還是把慣用魔法棒又拿出來了，威脅會議主席江啟","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"臣說","start":"2025-01-06T14:41:33.363000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:41:39.424000+08:00","text":"「沒有照我的意思的話，看你能不能走上主席臺，你試試看」。","quality":1},{"speaker":"臣說","start":"2025-01-06T14:41:41.774000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:41:57.902000+08:00","text":"在江啟臣副院長被威脅\n的情況之下，鴻薇首席副書記長極度強烈表達：「柯總召又在當面恐嚇人」。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"臣說","start":"2025-01-06T14:42:00.863000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:42:01.584000+08:00","text":"很高興的是……","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:42:01.584000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T14:42:02.584000+08:00","text":"善意提點！","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T14:42:02.124000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:42:18.226000+08:00","text":"當我還沒有出聲、還沒有講話的時候，江啟臣副院長說了一句話，我希望給韓院長參\n考，他說：「不然你現在是在恐嚇我嗎？","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T14:42:18.806000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:42:23.267000+08:00","text":"」他對柯總召說：「不然你現在是在恐嚇我嗎？","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T14:42:23.267000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:42:35.870000+08:00","text":"」結\n果惡馬還要惡人騎，柯總召馬上就熄火、安靜了，因為他知道江啟臣副院長不吃他這一套，他\n就乖乖夾著尾巴不講話了。","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T14:42:40.031000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:43:50.323000+08:00","text":"說實在，國民黨也好，民眾黨也好，總是覺得能夠讓會議進行，我\n們再三忍讓都沒有關係，所以這位大法師又搞出了一個那天簽的協議，所有的文字都要照他講\n的，簽了一個協議出來，不然就不能開會，然後我們還是基於尊重，因為他年事已高，三不五\n時要重述 30 年前到現在的事情，所以我們很不得已，為了讓立法院的議事能夠順利走下去，我\n們還是很忍讓又再簽下這個議事內容，裡面寫得很清楚，無須經過有協商結論，我們就可以依\n照院會的相關規定來處理。","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T14:43:52.206000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:44:13.847000+08:00","text":"當然我也沒有想到柯總召真的是黔驢技窮，來到這個這麼莊嚴的會\n場，又開始把馬戲團的把戲拿出來，再來講半小時、一小時、半小時、一小時，我覺得真的是\n沒有必要，那一題我們就針對那一題去討論就可以了。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T14:44:14.919000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:45:09.091000+08:00","text":"至於說剛剛一直不斷地在講到那個什麼\n救國團的事情，我對於柯總召竟然對救國團還有一點感情，我們也是表達非常詫異，但是我們\n還是要去思考一下，有這麼多的教師會館、警光會館、英雄館，還有我們的香客大樓，還有這\n麼多、這麼多、這麼多需要政府來輔導，讓他們能夠走上合法化，有這麼多這些民間、還是相\n關團體可以居住的這些會所，是不是要有足夠的時間來給他們把所有的 license 都能夠齊備？","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T14:45:09.091000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:45:54.883000+08:00","text":"所以上一次是延十年，如果十年力有未逮，因為事實上現在完成所有手續性的比例並不高，\n所以現在我們這一次大家討論是希望能夠在院會，大家一起來作決議，都來院會處理，能夠再\n有一個展延的時間，讓大家能夠順利的、都能夠合法性的來持續營業，這也是為臺灣的觀光，\n還有各方面的團體、還有宗教也投入一個，大家能夠都彼此互相尊重。","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T14:45:55.684000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:46:14.305000+08:00","text":"所以我想，院長我今天\n協 13\n沒有講半小時，除了會議詢問以外，我大概就講了 5、6 分鐘，希望我們能夠按照上禮拜五的協\n商共識，今天不要在這裡耗費時間，因為畢竟後面的議題還很多，好不好？謝謝。","quality":0.987},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T14:46:14.305000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T14:46:15.305000+08:00","text":"謝謝傅崐萁總召發言，吳思瑤幹事長發言完畢，我就要處理了。","quality":0.08},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-06T14:46:15.305000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T14:46:16.305000+08:00","text":"還有提案人……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T14:46:16.305000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T14:46:17.305000+08:00","text":"沒有，沒有、沒有……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T14:46:17.305000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T14:46:18.305000+08:00","text":"提案人先簡短說，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T14:46:18.305000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T14:46:19.305000+08:00","text":"吳思瑤幹事長，你等一下，我們先請提案人說。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:46:19.305000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T14:46:20.305000+08:00","text":"院長，主持朝野協商就是你站在中立的角色，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T14:46:20.305000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T14:46:21.305000+08:00","text":"你尊重、你就尊重好了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T14:46:21.305000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T14:46:22.305000+08:00","text":"我知道，我們先請提案人發言完，再請吳思瑤幹事長發言，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T14:46:22.305000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T14:46:23.305000+08:00","text":"你先發言，請。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2025-01-06T14:46:15.306000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:46:15.827000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席院長，還有各位同事，大家好。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2025-01-06T14:46:41.619000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:47:56.590000+08:00","text":"在這裡我王美惠有提出發展觀光條例第五十\n三條，在裡面也有人主張維持現法，也有人會覺得經年累月我們的旅行社都常常發生丟包事件\n，我覺得這個罰款要提高，業界才會覺得有一個警惕，需要把工作處理好，要讓他們覺得，你\n拿這些錢卻丟包旅客，就要對他們罰款，讓他們有所承擔之後，下次他們才會不敢亂搞，但如\n果從以前到現在都一樣的罰款，它也不會怕，會再發生丟包事件，比如我們臺灣人要去旅行卻\n被旅行社丟包，你看最近報紙有刊登、電視也在播，這實在非常的可憐，好在他還有錢，不然\n他在國外的時候，叫天天不靈，叫地地不應，所以我們希望所有的同事也好，還有我們的主席\n院長，是不是大家協商一下？","quality":0.557},{"speaker":"王委員美惠","start":"2025-01-06T14:47:56.610000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:47:58.011000+08:00","text":"我覺得這應該要提高它的罰款，以上。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T14:47:58.031000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:47:58.311000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝王委員提案人的發言。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T14:47:58.331000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:47:59.191000+08:00","text":"接下來請吳思瑤幹長發言，發言完畢之後，我要進行處理，\n謝謝。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T14:48:14.239000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:48:19.281000+08:00","text":"請院長先不要這麼急切，為什麼上週五會有這個黨團共識？","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T14:48:20.341000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:49:18.853000+08:00","text":"我想因為立法院實在不能\n夠一再的惡例下去，任何一個議案送到院會表決前，要經過院長的朝野協商，這過去二、三十\n年來都是如此，只是非常遺憾，這一屆的立法院，從上個會期的立法院職權行使法到這個會期\n的憲法訴訟法、財劃法以及揭弊者保護法，已經四部法律是完全沒有經過韓國瑜院長召集的朝\n野協商，直接送院會表決，這已經是惡例了，我們不能讓惡例成為慣例，所以為什麼上週五民\n進黨黨團一直認為還是要完備程序，讓還沒有完成韓院長主持會議的發展觀光條例及警察人員\n人事條例，要完備整個程序，這是我們的堅持，真的不能一錯再錯。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T14:49:19.133000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:49:56.551000+08:00","text":"為了要還原發展觀光條例，今天我們處理的重點在兩個條文，一個是第五十三條，一個是第\n七十條之二，我想院長應當也不至於貴人多忘事，上一次在討論第五十三條的時候，並沒有明\n確結論，當時就是要求交通部針對所謂的「玷辱國家榮譽、損害國家利益」，過去到底開罰了\n哪些，要求他們整理，以及要在立法說明裡補充說明。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T14:49:56.731000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:50:12.127000+08:00","text":"我想院長應當都記得，所以第五十三條\n條文，包括剛剛提案人王美惠委員所說的，整個條文的協商結論，或者是說進入實質的部分，\n根本是還沒有進入，所以我們還需要跟大家再對話。","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T14:50:13.448000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:50:25.496000+08:00","text":"至於第二個條文，即第七十條之二，是有關救國團是不是又要被展延五年，持續享有特權下\n去？","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T14:50:26.517000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:50:42.848000+08:00","text":"這個條文在上一次院長朝野協商時是完全沒有進入討論，這也是為什麼今天我們坐在這裡\n協 14\n，嚴肅地準備條文的內容，我們要來就條文交換意見，大家把道理說個清楚。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T14:50:47.570000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:50:50.831000+08:00","text":"針對剛剛的第五\n十三條，我回應一下王美惠委員，為什麼他要提案加重罰則？","quality":0.419},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T14:50:52.932000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:51:48.700000+08:00","text":"針對這些觀光旅館業、旅館業、\n旅行業、觀光遊樂業、民宿經營者要給予更高的罰鍰，是因為我們認為發展觀光是要越來越有\n品質，越來越能夠保障所有觀光客，不管是本國的國旅或是外國的觀光客，給予他們安全的、\n有品質的各項旅遊服務，所以王美惠委員認為要提高對這些不法業者的罰則，道理一直延續到\n第七十條之二，現在針對救國團的這些住宿場所，已經給了十年的時間讓他們去改善，剛剛傅\n崐萁總召說要給人家足夠、充分的時間去改善、去合法化，請問十年不是一個很長、很充足的\n時間嗎？","quality":0.76},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T14:51:48.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:52:07.432000+08:00","text":"十年當立委都可以當兩個半的任期，為什麼十年其他的旅宿觀光業者願意努力、戮力\n的完成合法登記，改善他們所有的軟、硬體，而救國團做不到呢？","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T14:52:08.519000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:52:23.965000+08:00","text":"所以這一條、第七十條之二\n，針對特定對象的住宿場所，已經給了十年的改善期，國民黨的委員提案要求再展延五年，總\n要有一個清楚的理由吧！","quality":0.845},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T14:52:25.305000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:53:04.006000+08:00","text":"現在這些特定對象的住宿場所有 118 處，32 處已經解除控管，其他 86\n處，33 處有意願持續經營，他們也努力、持續的爭取合法化，另外 31 處是完全沒有辦法改善，\n他們就放棄經營，因為要確保觀光品質、保障遊客安全權益，現在為什麼立委要針對救國團的\n部分要求再展延五年？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T14:53:04.006000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:53:12.351000+08:00","text":"就因為它是國民黨的附隨組織，它就可以再擁有展延的合理理由嗎？","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T14:53:13.532000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:53:15.773000+08:00","text":"這\n部分怎麼樣也要對社會說清楚、講明白！","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T14:53:17.414000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:53:48.422000+08:00","text":"發展觀光條例是要越發展越有高品質、越安全，現在怎麼越走越回去，要圖利特定的救國團\n，給予它特權，然後讓整個觀光品質走回頭路，等於通過了這個條文，就是告訴遊客們，在臺\n灣你來住救國團這些特定對象的旅宿，安全是可以打折的、品質是可以打折的，這些是可以繼\n續違法經營的。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T14:53:51.389000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:53:53.171000+08:00","text":"國家有法律要依據啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T14:53:54.192000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:54:12.909000+08:00","text":"所以我不懂，到現在為止我沒有聽到提案的委員或是各\n黨團的委員針對第七十條之二為什麼認為有合理的理由再予以它展延五年，如果這樣沒完沒了\n，五年展延加五年展延，已經給了十年還不夠嗎？","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T14:54:15.137000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:54:42.713000+08:00","text":"現在非常嚴重的是除了它本身的建築使用執\n照跟旅館業不相符，它的消防、建管、衛生等等的法規、品質沒有辦法達到我們國家法制的要\n求，應當是這些沒有辦法改善，它就要退出經營，否則國家以後出了安全的事情誰來負責？","quality":0.989},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T14:54:42.713000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:54:46.958000+08:00","text":"提\n案修法的在野黨委員可以負責嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T14:54:46.958000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:54:53.326000+08:00","text":"這些沒有獲得消防、建管、衛生審查的，但它持續存在、持\n續非法營運，這個責任誰擔？","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T14:54:57.151000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:55:14.256000+08:00","text":"我看到每一次委員在質詢的時候都要求交通部、要求觀光署，說\n是我們要吸引更多的國際觀光客來，我們要全面提升，把我們國家的旅遊品牌建立起來。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T14:55:14.256000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:55:26.160000+08:00","text":"臺灣就是要高品質啊，那為什麼我們現在可以容忍這些非法存在的經營業者持續放任著安全\n、衛生不管？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T14:55:27.220000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:55:49.029000+08:00","text":"我們作為負責任的立法委員，今天審法條，講到這裡，剛剛我沒有聽到提案的國\n民黨委員合理化認為要再展延五年的理由是什麼，傅崐萁總召說了，因為他覺得十年是不夠長\n的改善期限，大家評評理，十年是一個不夠長的改善期限，天啊！","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T14:55:50.110000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:56:14.200000+08:00","text":"國民黨的附隨組織就可以有\n這麼大的特權，如果十年還沒有辦法改善，那我認為他們從頭到尾無心改善，它就是吃定了國\n家會繼續放水，繼續讓他們的安全可以打折、品質可以打折，我們做為立法委員，這種為了特\n定的人士去圖利、去放寬、去就地合法，讓它持續的違法營運，我認為我們不應當做這樣的事\n情。","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T14:56:20.790000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:56:36.659000+08:00","text":"院長，這是您的朝野協商針對發展觀光條例第七十條之二第一次開始進行內容的討論，我\n認為不要把協商當作過水而已，要請提案委員講清楚他的合理理由是什麼。協 15","quality":0.928},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T14:56:36.659000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:57:00.495000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝，我要跟各位黨團幹部報告，今天我們從 2 點開始開會，有八個法律案要研究、要\n討論，目前為止，第一個案我們已經討論了一個半小時，如果照這樣推下去的話，我們可能在\n今天完全沒有辦法處理完，所以第一案發展觀光條例，我現在作以下處理：我們就送院會處理\n。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T14:57:00.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T14:57:02.197000+08:00","text":"休息 10 分鐘，等一下進入第二案。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T14:57:02.197000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T14:57:06.391667+08:00","text":"休息（14 時 57 分）\n繼續開會（15 時 6 分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T14:57:06.391667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T14:57:10.586333+08:00","text":"謝謝，各位黨團幹部請坐，我們現在進行第二案「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及\n增訂附表三」。院長……","quality":0.045},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T14:57:10.586333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T14:57:14.781000+08:00","text":"我們先介紹一下列席官員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T14:57:14.781000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:06:25.521000+08:00","text":"各黨團幹部請坐，請維持一下會場的秩序，請大家保持安靜。","quality":0.375},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T15:06:25.521000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:06:32.303000+08:00","text":"我\n們先介給一下列席的官員，首先我們歡迎內政部劉部長。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T15:06:34.024000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:06:47.727000+08:00","text":"警政署張署長，歡迎您。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T15:06:51.870000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:06:56.192000+08:00","text":"消防署的蕭\n署長，歡迎您、歡迎您。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T15:06:58.813000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:07:01.034000+08:00","text":"銓敘部的施部長，歡迎您、歡迎您。","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T15:07:02.675000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:07:04.976000+08:00","text":"人事行政總處的蘇人事長，歡迎\n您。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T15:07:06.257000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:07:11.559000+08:00","text":"海巡署的謝副署長，歡迎您、歡迎。謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T15:07:11.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:07:14.581000+08:00","text":"謝謝相關單位列席官員，請坐。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T15:07:17.263000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:07:23.611000+08:00","text":"各位黨團幹部，根據 1 月 3 日的黨團共識，我們今天討論第二案。院長……","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:07:26.915000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:07:31.360000+08:00","text":"大家保持安靜，後面該坐下來的人都坐下來，好不好？","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:07:32.481000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:07:33.582000+08:00","text":"很可惜，傅總召不在。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:07:35.437000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:07:50.784000+08:00","text":"我在這\n裡要講一下，剛才我跟韓院長開玩笑，說我在外面怎麼突然停起來了，就休息協商，我說：院\n長，不要畏罪潛逃吧。","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:07:52.245000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:07:58.548000+08:00","text":"他一直笑，說：等一下，沒有關係，等一下回來，我會讓你講一段，就\n是第一個案子。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:07:58.948000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:08:03.771000+08:00","text":"因為第一個案子我還沒講完嘛，你讓我講一段，然後再來進入第二段。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T15:08:06.186000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:08:07.607000+08:00","text":"不要再「倒退嚕」了啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T15:08:09.068000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:08:09.569000+08:00","text":"院長，拜託啦！","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T15:08:10.289000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:08:12.791000+08:00","text":"這樣一直「倒退嚕」，我們到底要開到民國\n幾年啊！","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-06T15:08:12.791000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T15:08:14.052000+08:00","text":"尊重發言啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T15:08:14.052000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:08:15.833000+08:00","text":"不是啦，你不要再「倒退嚕」了嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T15:08:16.194000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:08:18.415000+08:00","text":"我們進入第二階段……","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:08:18.415000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T15:08:19.415000+08:00","text":"王鴻薇，你不要講話，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T15:08:18.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:08:20.717000+08:00","text":"為什麼不能夠按照議事規則？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T15:08:20.717000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:08:23.078000+08:00","text":"你可不可以尊重一下別人！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T15:08:23.078000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T15:08:24.078000+08:00","text":"立法院不是你柯建銘一個人\n的，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-06T15:08:23.459000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:08:24.079000+08:00","text":"尊重發言！","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-06T15:08:25.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:08:27.261000+08:00","text":"王鴻薇，請尊重我們總召的發言，好嗎？","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T15:08:27.261000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T15:08:28.261000+08:00","text":"立法院是你柯建銘一個人的嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:08:28.261000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T15:08:29.261000+08:00","text":"你疑問韓院長啊……","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-06T15:08:28.382000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:08:28.783000+08:00","text":"尊重發言！","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-06T15:08:29.243000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:08:29.803000+08:00","text":"尊重大家發言！","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-06T15:08:30.003000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:08:30.984000+08:00","text":"尊重每一個人的發言！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T15:08:35.167000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:08:36.748000+08:00","text":"我們到第二案就講第二案，為什麼要「倒退嚕」？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T15:08:37.829000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:08:39.651000+08:00","text":"再倒退到明年，好不好？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:08:39.651000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T15:08:41.012000+08:00","text":"韓院長，你講個話嘛。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T15:08:41.012000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:08:45.195000+08:00","text":"不是，大家忍耐是有限度的，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:08:45.395000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:08:46.175000+08:00","text":"你忍耐什麼東西啊！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:08:46.476000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:08:47.556000+08:00","text":"朝野協商講話，你忍耐什麼東西啊！","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T15:08:47.556000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T15:08:48.556000+08:00","text":"忍耐你啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T15:08:47.757000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:08:47.917000+08:00","text":"你講了 30 分鐘還不夠啊！","quality":0.444},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:08:49.558000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:08:52.500000+08:00","text":"我如果講半個鐘頭，你們可以講 1 個鐘頭都沒有問題。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T15:08:52.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:08:55.262000+08:00","text":"你尊重，你要懂得接受啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T15:08:55.783000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:08:58.545000+08:00","text":"你一定要讓人家這樣子……對不對？院長……","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T15:08:58.545000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:08:59.686000+08:00","text":"你一定要讓人家講那麼難聽的話嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T15:08:59.686000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:08:59.986000+08:00","text":"你會講話，我不會講話嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:08:59.986000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:09:00.146000+08:00","text":"你可以講啊。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T15:09:04.649000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:09:06.190000+08:00","text":"同樣地，我告訴你，我都不願意講，已經有職災了、職業災害了……","quality":0.708},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:09:06.210000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:09:06.911000+08:00","text":"我如果講半個鐘頭，你可以講 1 個鐘頭，我讓你……","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T15:09:06.911000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:09:07.351000+08:00","text":"我當然可以講 1 個鐘頭啊，但是我不願意！","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T15:09:07.411000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:09:07.771000+08:00","text":"我要尊重院長……","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:09:07.771000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T15:09:08.771000+08:00","text":"你講一下嘛。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T15:09:07.771000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:09:08.052000+08:00","text":"尊重所有官員！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T15:09:08.212000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:09:08.712000+08:00","text":"你有尊重別人嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:09:08.712000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T15:09:09.712000+08:00","text":"這是朝野協商……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T15:09:08.712000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:09:09.212000+08:00","text":"你有尊重別人嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T15:09:09.212000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:09:09.513000+08:00","text":"你要這樣繼續，我們就繼續講啊！","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:09:09.513000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T15:09:10.513000+08:00","text":"你是走實務……","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T15:09:09.893000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:09:10.053000+08:00","text":"你嚕 1 個小時，我陪你啊！","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T15:09:10.113000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:09:10.173000+08:00","text":"好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:09:10.173000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T15:09:11.173000+08:00","text":"那就開始啊。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T15:09:10.193000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:09:10.353000+08:00","text":"我就陪你啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T15:09:10.513000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:09:10.533000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:09:10.533000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T15:09:11.533000+08:00","text":"好，開始講。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T15:09:10.533000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:09:10.573000+08:00","text":"你講啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T15:09:10.674000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:09:10.874000+08:00","text":"你講，我就跟你講！好，來！","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T15:09:10.874000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:09:11.494000+08:00","text":"你不尊重別人，我為什麼要尊重你！","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:09:11.514000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:09:36.359000+08:00","text":"來，那他不要講話，我來開始講。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T15:09:36.739000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:09:37.500000+08:00","text":"可以這樣一直折磨別人嗎？","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T15:09:37.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:09:38.581000+08:00","text":"你講話很好聽嗎？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T15:09:38.581000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:09:38.941000+08:00","text":"大家就要聆聽嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T15:09:38.941000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T15:09:39.941000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:09:39.081000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:09:39.201000+08:00","text":"什麼叫折磨？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:09:39.341000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:09:39.661000+08:00","text":"你認為這個叫折磨嗎？","quality":0.444},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T15:09:39.681000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:09:39.841000+08:00","text":"本來就是折磨啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T15:09:39.982000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:09:40.122000+08:00","text":"你剛才已經講完了……","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:09:40.122000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T15:09:41.122000+08:00","text":"忠言逆耳，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T15:09:40.162000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:09:41.723000+08:00","text":"讓你講 30 分鐘，你還講不出個所以然，你 30 分鐘都講不到重點！","quality":0.696},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:09:41.723000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T15:09:42.723000+08:00","text":"良藥總是苦口的，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T15:09:41.823000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:09:42.263000+08:00","text":"給你 3 天也講不到重點，你回去寫臉書好了啦！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:09:42.263000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T15:09:43.263000+08:00","text":"我陳述的都是事實的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T15:09:42.403000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:09:43.044000+08:00","text":"你臉書寫 7 萬字，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T15:09:43.164000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:09:43.284000+08:00","text":"你乾脆寫書好了……","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:09:43.284000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T15:09:44.284000+08:00","text":"我寫一本給你看……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T15:09:43.384000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:09:43.684000+08:00","text":"不是這樣子嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T15:09:43.684000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T15:09:54.398500+08:00","text":"你進入第二案嘛！協 17","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T15:09:54.398500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T15:10:05.113000+08:00","text":"主席，你要制止一下吧，一直在干擾發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-06T15:10:05.113000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:10:07.253000+08:00","text":"目前為止都是你王鴻薇在講話，好不好？……亂啊！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T15:10:07.253000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T15:10:09.497800+08:00","text":"主席，你要制止……","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-06T15:10:09.497800+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T15:10:11.742600+08:00","text":"現在總召的發言時間啊！……亂嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:10:11.742600+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T15:10:13.987400+08:00","text":"……記者會的發言稿。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-06T15:10:13.987400+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T15:10:16.232200+08:00","text":"開了麥克風就可以講了喔！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:10:16.232200+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T15:10:18.477000+08:00","text":"院長，我講一下……來！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T15:10:18.477000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:10:19.878000+08:00","text":"你尊重院長，我尊重你！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T15:10:20.198000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:10:20.938000+08:00","text":"就是這樣子！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T15:10:21.818000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:10:24.119000+08:00","text":"過去就是這樣！院長……","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T15:10:24.119000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:10:39.224000+08:00","text":"我再重申一遍我們發言的順序，現在民進黨柯總召發言完，國民黨黨團現在推派牛煦庭委員\n發言，再來請台灣民眾黨發言，第二輪再請蔡易餘書記長，這是第一個，我們先確定這個次序\n。","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T15:10:39.484000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:10:41.205000+08:00","text":"第二個，麻煩柯總召掌握一下時間，請。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:10:41.205000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:11:00.957000+08:00","text":"其實剛才我講一些話，環顧過去整個歷史、整個憲政制度的問題，當然，國民黨聽不\n下去，忠言總是逆耳的，良藥是苦口的。","quality":0.771},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:11:02.378000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:11:10.941000+08:00","text":"韓院長剛才答應我等一下在進入第二案以前再綜合發\n言一次，沒有關係，這是取得發言權的。","quality":0.711},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T15:11:11.805000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:11:17.668000+08:00","text":"我要澄清一下，我說你發言時要分兩部分，一個是歷史的回顧，一個是法案的審查。","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T15:11:18.269000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:11:24.112000+08:00","text":"我說第\n二案警察人員人事條例的時候，你一定會回到歷史的回顧，那個時候你可以儘量發揮，剛才的\n講法是這樣子。","quality":0.787},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:11:24.112000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:11:25.012000+08:00","text":"沒有關係，我都有牽連性。","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:11:27.934000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:11:32.816000+08:00","text":"即便當作第一案也無所謂，第一案我要講什麼話，各位也\n沒有辦法制止我，對不對？","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:11:33.937000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:11:50.897000+08:00","text":"我要講到警察人員人事條例、講到整個憲政制度問題、講到整個威\n權時期、講到國民黨現在還是有威權遺緒，都是一樣，都是有牽連性的，我的發言絕對是直播\n的、經得起考驗。","quality":0.814},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:11:50.897000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:12:11.229000+08:00","text":"我要糾正王鴻薇委員，你說我去寫臉書、寫 7 萬字，你錯了，我不是寫臉書\n，那天是只有記者打電話給我，說聯合報兩篇聲明在批我，我要不要出來回應，我是出來回應\n，然後讓記者問。","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:12:11.229000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:12:19.804000+08:00","text":"我講了一個鐘頭，我是把我講的話化成文字稿放在我的臉書上面而已，你再\n去看我的臉書，這幾篇臉書都很簡短。","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T15:12:20.084000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:12:24.585000+08:00","text":"蔡易餘跟李坤城都沒有去按讚啦！","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:12:25.806000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:12:26.506000+08:00","text":"好了，你不要講話。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T15:12:26.506000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T15:12:27.506000+08:00","text":"好啊，你講啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:12:26.506000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:12:52.564000+08:00","text":"我現在再講，剛才我看傅崐萁的發言，請大家注意聽，乃至於民眾黨的發言，讓我不\n協 18\n禁想到一個事情，傅崐萁的發言乃至於民眾黨麥委員的發言，說大話臉不紅，全部都在講反話\n。","quality":0.764},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:12:52.824000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:13:23.204000+08:00","text":"我記得文革的時候有四人幫，那時候毛澤東弄一個文化革命乃至於大躍進，中國大陸死了\n6,000 萬個人，這是人類的浩劫，所有的文化也摧毀了，那時候鄧小平後來有出來定調、三七開\n，江青也被抓起來了，抓到秦城監獄裡面去。","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:13:24.144000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:13:43.137000+08:00","text":"所以剛才看傅崐萁說大話，然後麥玉珍全部講反\n話，朝野協商的時候我全部在場，這有點像紅衛兵的樣子，就是革命無罪、造反有理，居然在\n立法院裡活生生地上演，我為什麼要講這些東西呢？","quality":0.688},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:13:44.198000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:13:56.253000+08:00","text":"當天我跟傅崐萁私下拜託，然後一直跟他\n講，我們來建立立法院的文化，不能再打架了，不能再這樣亂搞了。","quality":0.698},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:13:59.594000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:14:09.916000+08:00","text":"按照議事程序先協商，協\n商沒有結論沒有關係，那就照程序，大家都可以發言，協商有結論就發言人數可以限定，那就\n展開效率。","quality":0.843},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:14:10.837000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:14:33.154000+08:00","text":"所以後來簽了有關於明天要表決的事情，大體討論是 5、5、1；逐條討論是 1、1、1\n，就這麼簡單，明天這個協商結論都已經簽好、押死了，我知道國民黨不敢講、不敢辯護，因\n為不知道從何辯護。","quality":0.843},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:14:34.775000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:14:42.138000+08:00","text":"相對地，肚子裡面的東西也是有限的，所以你要叫傅崐萁講一些合乎正常\n的話，事實上是緣木求魚。","quality":0.825},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:14:44.599000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:15:05.823000+08:00","text":"我在這裡要講的是，既然明天都已經定好了，極短的表決時間，朝野協商應該讓大家講想講\n的話，包括等一下的警察人員人事條例也是如此，一樣要給行政部門講話，總不能行政部門還\n沒講話就叫大家下課、打包回家。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:15:06.964000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:15:16.226000+08:00","text":"院長，針對這一點，你要注意一下，連行政部門都還沒講到\n話，你就說結束可以回去了、脫離現場，這就奇怪了！","quality":0.791},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:15:17.326000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:15:19.927000+08:00","text":"沒有一個朝野協商可以如此處理的。","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:15:22.964000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:16:16.065000+08:00","text":"整\n個回顧都沒有這種情形，王鴻薇委員都在場，我很善意地跟你講了一些話，在國民黨的要求下\n，我們總共簽了 5 個版本，在一開始談的時候，我跟傅總召說我們大家好好講、不要吵架，以\n後就是這樣，幾個人發言我們都寫定，這次全部寫定，所以我還是要寫得很清楚，第一個，我\n們星期一朝野協商的時候加入觀光條例以及警察人員人事條例，協商後有協商結論留待在禮拜\n二、明天表決，沒有協商結論就照議事程序來處理。","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:16:16.826000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:16:41.762000+08:00","text":"另外，明天有壯世代條款，春城委員也在這裡，坦白講，我是滿欣賞春城委員對於他的理念\n的堅持，因為他還沒當立委的時候就在談壯世代，他也很誠懇地打電話說要來看我，我那時候\n因為腳痛根本沒有辦法下床，我說等我可以下床的時候，我們來談一談。","quality":0.835},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:16:41.762000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:16:59.315000+08:00","text":"後來我在辦公室跟他\n談，我很仔細聽了他講的話，他還帶了很多資料，但是我跟他說你拿的這些資料商周都有談過\n，我知道壯世代的問題，所以那天我跟春城委員說這樣最簡單，因為這一條是民眾黨的嘛！","quality":0.795},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:17:03.239000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:17:16.589000+08:00","text":"就\n朝野協商而言警察人員人事條例也是你們的，但是這一題我很 respect，對於你自己理念的堅持\n，這個東西我們談一談就簽給你了，也不必表決、也不必發言，這樣最快。","quality":0.764},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:17:17.750000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:17:24.736000+08:00","text":"所以就剩下兩個案\n子而已，兩個案子再精簡一下，只剩下三個條文要表決，所以就是這樣的程序嘛！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:17:26.717000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:17:50.463000+08:00","text":"有關於吳春城委員所說的壯世代，我那時候寫出來，我剛點出一個東西就是說，因為條文寫\n五十五歲以上才是壯世代，但是像韓院長身體這麼健朗，還在主持院會，還是能夠工作，難道\n他是老弱殘兵嗎？","quality":0.741},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:17:51.584000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:18:16.133000+08:00","text":"柯總召雖然腳開刀、拿著柺杖，但是仗義執言，講話鏗鏘有力，所以我們應\n該把這個觀念調整，不要限制在五十五歲以上，就是不管年齡，你有工作能力、有工作意願都\n算壯世代。","quality":0.757},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:18:17.294000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:18:51.909000+08:00","text":"壯世代是臺灣最有影響力，而且最有競爭力、最有工作力的一代，當然也有青年世\n代，我們是要世代結合的，所以我建議是不是照行政院的體育法，包括五十五歲以上有工作能\n協 19\n力，像韓院長這樣、我們兩個這樣，雖然沒有頭髮，但是頭髮底下的腦袋還很清楚，我們的腦\n袋沒有裝水泥，你放心啦！","quality":0.831},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:18:53.264000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:18:58.448000+08:00","text":"韓院長精得很，大家都欣然同意嘛！","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:18:59.128000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:19:14.498000+08:00","text":"這案一下就能協商完畢，當然\n有「三不」，就是不再設辦公室，因為以後設在國發會裡面，不設辦公室，還有不設基金，這\n很重要，基金是違法的，兩年內……","quality":0.845},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T15:19:14.498000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T15:19:15.498000+08:00","text":"這個溝通好了，現在我們就直接針對案子……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:19:15.498000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T15:19:16.498000+08:00","text":"我把這個講完，因為壯世代等一下沒有了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:19:14.498000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:19:47.832000+08:00","text":"臺灣在兩年內要修法，相關法規這不用討\n論，大家都簽好了；簽好了以後，雖然是他提的法案，民眾黨真的拍板的是黃國昌，我說你去\n跟黃委員談一談還有什麼意見，我們都可以改，待會寫星期二（就是明天）完成三讀這些法案\n。","quality":0.711},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:19:48.312000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:20:04.819000+08:00","text":"所以院長，你今天有很充裕的時間讓大家盍各言爾志，讓大家把道理講清楚，等一下你也可\n以讓吳春城委員講壯世代的觀念，雖然不在協商的範圍裡面，大家會聞之動容的。","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:20:08.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:20:10.461000+08:00","text":"我就這樣提出來……","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:20:10.461000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:20:14.923000+08:00","text":"等一下，還沒，不必謝謝。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:20:14.923000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:20:42.650000+08:00","text":"好，然後打好了，王鴻薇說要寫出來，我就寫出來，就是\n這一張，讓我簽名；現在不行，剛才打字，我說一概服從，再打出來，就是這一張，所以我在\n這裡有這個 memo，就是在王鴻薇的要求底下，我把它打字出來，表示尊重，但傅崐萁當場又跑\n掉，欸！","quality":0.708},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:20:42.650000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T15:20:44.030000+08:00","text":"奇怪，玩假的嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:20:44.030000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:20:59.768000+08:00","text":"然後王鴻薇委員就說沒有關係，傅崐萁跑掉了，傅崐萁落跑了，這\n必須經傅崐萁同意，你們這樣是玩假的嗎？","quality":0.395},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:21:00.488000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:21:16.819000+08:00","text":"這種是實質的行為，講話不算話，所以我當然通知\n他說做人要誠懇，有一天我們都是從這個場域離開。","quality":0.732},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:21:17.720000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:21:26.403000+08:00","text":"我認識傅崐萁，從他當立委就認識了，但\n是不管怎麼樣，對待老朋友有一個原則……","quality":0.594},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:21:27.584000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:21:43.190000+08:00","text":"可是傅崐萁，你很奇怪，你以前人就好好的，雖然你做股票害人家，但那是你的事情\n，但是你仍說話算話，他以前也是親民黨的，又變成無黨籍，但參加國民黨以後又變樣了，變\n成說話不算話，這就有點……","quality":0.468},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T15:21:43.811000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:21:45.012000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝柯總召，我們要聚焦。","quality":0.364},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T15:21:45.212000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:21:45.352000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝你……","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:21:45.352000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T15:21:46.352000+08:00","text":"我把這個事情講完，我這裡還寫得很清楚……","quality":0.176},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T15:21:45.973000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:21:46.273000+08:00","text":"好的、好的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T15:21:46.593000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:21:46.673000+08:00","text":"OK，好，謝謝、謝謝。","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:21:46.673000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:21:47.274000+08:00","text":"等一下、等一下，你不要一直謝謝。","quality":0.538},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T15:21:47.274000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:21:47.554000+08:00","text":"請掌握時間，謝謝。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T15:21:49.216000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:21:50.537000+08:00","text":"因為有好多人要等……","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:21:50.777000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:21:52.719000+08:00","text":"沒有關係，反正今天開會，大家好好講。","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:21:52.879000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:22:11.618000+08:00","text":"接下來王鴻薇又說這個不行，傅崐萁委員說\n要黃國昌看過才可以，好，你就來，我會去改，再改一次……","quality":0.718},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T15:22:11.978000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:22:13.840000+08:00","text":"不是，總召，我們先談警察人員人事條例……","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:22:14.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:22:18.163000+08:00","text":"改一次又說不行，我們百般忍耐。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T15:22:18.543000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:22:22.386000+08:00","text":"總召，我跟你報告，等一下討論壯世代，你再講壯世代。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T15:22:22.386000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T15:22:23.386000+08:00","text":"……真的是不要再講了。協 20","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:22:22.587000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:22:24.808000+08:00","text":"等一下，然後第 5 次……你不要講話好不好？","quality":0.533},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:22:25.429000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:22:30.919000+08:00","text":"你怕人家講是不是？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:22:30.919000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T15:22:32.960000+08:00","text":"你侵害到我的發言\n權了。","quality":0.1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T15:22:32.960000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:22:34.720000+08:00","text":"沒有，總召，我建議我們到第 3 案的時候……","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:22:35.100000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:22:40.541000+08:00","text":"院長，你剛才就講說讓我講完嘛，你就實現諾言，這個全國直播，你不要一直打斷我\n。","quality":0.545},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:22:42.621000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:22:46.082000+08:00","text":"沒有關係，我講半個鐘頭，他們可以講一個鐘頭，我都會忍耐，好不好？","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:22:48.443000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:23:14.703000+08:00","text":"第 5 次再來\n，黃國昌竭盡所能在刁難我們，我都忍下來，要增加兩點，我們再改，掛保證都簽給你，腳印\n、手印都蓋給你，還是不行，他躲在議場裡面，傅崐萁就……我把他照相起來，要弄好的時候\n，我說王鴻薇，你怎麼變成信差、送郵件的？","quality":0.697},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:23:15.443000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:23:17.244000+08:00","text":"跑來跑去幹什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:23:17.244000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:23:21.486000+08:00","text":"你是一個黨鞭耶，你是黨鞭耶\n，讓傅崐萁自己來……","quality":0.526},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T15:23:21.486000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T15:23:24.527500+08:00","text":"「練痟話」！","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T15:23:24.527500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T15:23:27.569000+08:00","text":"叫我們……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:23:27.569000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:23:29.230000+08:00","text":"是你躲起來，沒有人了嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:23:30.228000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:23:36.932000+08:00","text":"所以傅崐萁自己……大家協商要坐下來好好談，你不要說\n話。","quality":0.478},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:23:36.932000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:23:39.313000+08:00","text":"然後傅崐萁躲起來了嘛……","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:23:39.693000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:23:40.634000+08:00","text":"然後傅崐萁要再請示黃國昌，所以這個東西……","quality":0.444},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T15:23:40.774000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:23:41.454000+08:00","text":"不是，柯總召，那些都不要再說了，我們就是討論警察人員人事條例。","quality":0.407},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:23:41.654000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:23:43.375000+08:00","text":"我把它講完，我要把這件事情講完……","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:23:54.180000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:23:59.525000+08:00","text":"傅崐萁何其可惜，你一個大黨鞭，竟然要看黃國昌臉色，丟人現眼加「est」，實在\n是太丟臉了。","quality":0.405},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T15:24:03.768000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:24:04.328000+08:00","text":"好，這些不說，謝謝啦，柯總召，謝謝啦。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:24:06.750000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:24:08.492000+08:00","text":"所以我把整個過程還原出來……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:24:10.333000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:24:41.134000+08:00","text":"我知道國民黨在搞什麼，十分鐘的事情可以搞到四個鐘頭，一定說都是民進黨在亂，\n是你們協商完成的，我早就料到了，所以開完會以後，我們黨團一排，除了我以外，全部開記\n者會，還原事實真相，否則黃國昌一定寫臉書說民進黨在亂，然後都是他在協商的，傅崐萁就\n是這樣嘛，你要搞這一套，我都很清楚，所以全部給你封死，這都是事實呈現在這裡。","quality":0.843},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:24:41.134000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:24:45.717000+08:00","text":"今天我\n要講的就是說我們大家要協商就好好協商，要有誠意……","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:24:46.098000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:24:52.643000+08:00","text":"我們終極目標就是要把立法院變成一個可以論證的地方，不是打架的地方……","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:24:54.865000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:25:13.478000+08:00","text":"這是建立、重塑立法院的新文化，雖然被韓院長乃至於在看資料的秘書長還有議事處\n協 21\n處長亂搞一通，居然三讀過的法案，一個召委說不能送出就不送出，這是澈底違法的……","quality":0.686},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:25:14.739000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:25:17.621000+08:00","text":"當然我想監察院也知道如何去彈劾。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:25:19.302000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:25:20.323000+08:00","text":"以上就是說……","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T15:25:20.323000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:25:21.564000+08:00","text":"好，我謝了一百多次了，柯總召，謝謝，謝謝，可以了。","quality":0.632},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:25:23.585000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:25:33.851000+08:00","text":"我跟你講，多謝必有詐……","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:25:33.851000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:25:38.794000+08:00","text":"你看我眼睛，我看你眼睛就不像要再謝謝了……","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:25:38.794000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T15:25:43.417000+08:00","text":"觀其眸子，人焉廋哉……","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T15:25:43.417000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:25:43.537000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝柯總召，我謝了第 101 次了，謝謝。","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:25:43.577000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:25:52.783000+08:00","text":"當然院長這種誠意我必須接受。謝謝。謝謝。","quality":0.647},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T15:25:53.484000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:25:58.470000+08:00","text":"跟各黨團報告，現在國民黨團推派牛煦庭委員來說明，請問黨團有沒有意見？","quality":0.71},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T15:25:58.470000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T15:26:00.212000+08:00","text":"沒有意\n見，請牛煦庭委員發言。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:26:00.212000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:26:00.212000+08:00","text":"敬請發言，洗耳恭聽。","quality":0.375},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T15:26:00.432000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:26:00.512000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T15:26:06.999000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:26:14.144000+08:00","text":"剛剛柯總召委講了 25 分鐘，這是朝野協商，主席當然會希望力求圓滿，\n這個我們理解……","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:26:14.144000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T15:26:15.144000+08:00","text":"你也可以講 50 分鐘，我忍耐。","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T15:26:14.504000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:26:24.210000+08:00","text":"但本席要講的就是說我們還是希望回到議題的討論，我只要 5 分鐘就好，因為案子很\n多，我們要體恤主席，我們也要兼顧立法院的議事效率，這是我的建議。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T15:26:25.951000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:26:46.884000+08:00","text":"今天就談警察人員人事條例的部分，這當然就是談警察的退休金跟待遇的部分，2024 年的 6\n月 13 號在司法委員會做相關法案審查的詢答時，其實我在質詢的時候就有詢問過警政跟消防署\n的署長，警察跟警消包含我們的海巡弟兄在內，他在任職工作上的性質是不是跟一般的公務員\n有所不同？","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T15:26:48.125000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:26:54.089000+08:00","text":"當初警政署的署長跟消防署的署長都直接坦率地承認確實不同，怎麼樣說不同呢？","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T15:26:55.090000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:27:02.596000+08:00","text":"人事制度、勞動條件、勞動安全，還有警消危勞、早退等等的這些問題，強度也不一樣。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T15:27:03.096000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:27:17.961000+08:00","text":"更重\n要的還有行政程序法第十九條第二項提到，行政機關執行勤務時，得向無隸屬關係的其他機關\n請求協助，很多很多的行政機關就用這一條要求我們的警消弟兄跟同仁來協助各個機關。","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T15:27:17.961000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:27:24.062000+08:00","text":"所以\n各方各面來講，警消也好、海巡也好，他在職務上的特殊性，本來就跟一般的公務人員有所不\n同。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T15:27:24.703000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:27:39.694000+08:00","text":"那麼談風險，最近 7 年的統計，警察因公死亡 65 人，因公受傷 6,037 人，全體軍公教因公死\n亡數 229 人，警察就占全體的 28%；如果把消防人員加計進去，這個比例會更高。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T15:27:40.454000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:27:50.382000+08:00","text":"警察的人數\n占全國軍公教 8%，卻有高達 28%的因公死亡比例，這就表示這個職業的風險跟一般的公教確有\n不同。","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T15:27:51.062000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:28:03.927000+08:00","text":"既然人事制度、工作內容都自成體系，有所不同，當然有本質上的差異，既然有本質上\n的差異，卻使用相同的退休制度，它其實是一個齊頭式的平等，假平等會造成真不公。","quality":0.985},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T15:28:04.387000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:28:11.810000+08:00","text":"因此，\n協 22\n我們提案修正警察人事條例，希望爭取更好退休待遇的關鍵，就是應該把它改成所謂立足點的\n平等。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T15:28:12.390000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:28:28.406000+08:00","text":"那麼內容上，我們針對最低所得替代率、年增率跟最高所得替代率都做了調整，這樣子調整\n的原因是因為每一次討論年金改革的時候，大家都把關鍵跟焦點放在最高替代率，但是事實上\n警消、海巡等等，大部分是危老……","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:28:28.847000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:28:29.567000+08:00","text":"所得替代率啦！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T15:28:30.248000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:28:51.337000+08:00","text":"真的能夠達到所得替代率天花板的人並沒有那麼多，所以我們這次版本的修正，其實\n是調高年增率跟最低所得替代率這樣的數字，目標是為了照顧多一點點的基層人力，他不見得\n有辦法服勤滿 40 年或者是 35 年這樣的高度，但是也可以享有更好的退休待遇。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T15:28:51.757000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:29:06.063000+08:00","text":"所以這樣子的\n版本修正過後，不管是基層的、年輕的、資深的，也不只是已經退休的警消、海巡人員，包含\n待退的以及在職的，未來都可以享有更好的退休待遇。","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T15:29:06.423000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:29:39.546000+08:00","text":"我們希望可以站在不同工作的考量，建立立足點平等機制的角度，來合理地修正警察人員條\n例，希望好的退休待遇能夠鼓勵更多的人，不管是服務久一點也好，或者是勇於加入警消、海\n巡的行列，成為打擊犯罪的英雄也好，要有好的待遇，才留得住好的人才，才能讓國家長治久\n安，所以我們希望大家可以好好支持這樣子的修法，照顧退休的警消人員之外，也照顧現職跟\n相對年輕的警消人員。","quality":0.994},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T15:29:39.546000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:29:39.666000+08:00","text":"以上，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T15:29:40.507000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:29:45.394000+08:00","text":"好，接下來請台灣民眾黨發言，蔡易餘書記長請準備。","quality":0.762},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:29:45.394000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T15:29:46.866000+08:00","text":"我要發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:29:46.866000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T15:29:48.338000+08:00","text":"等一下三黨發言完畢，要給行政部門講一下。","quality":0.278},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T15:29:48.338000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:29:49.279000+08:00","text":"我先講完，因為你講很久。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:29:49.279000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T15:29:50.279000+08:00","text":"我們都要講。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T15:29:49.740000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:29:57.941000+08:00","text":"沒有，不要急嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T15:29:58.362000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:30:01.204000+08:00","text":"蔡書記長發言完，我就請銓敘部部長發言，還有人事……好不好？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T15:30:01.524000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:30:05.027000+08:00","text":"這一定\n要這樣子，台灣民眾黨請不要被干擾，來。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T15:30:05.027000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:30:10.091000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝主席，太好了，主席有規定，大家就要遵守。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T15:30:13.213000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:30:39.038000+08:00","text":"關於警察人員的條例，其他的\n背景就不講了，我們的修法建議，第一，退休替代率比照國軍所服務的年資計算，滿 15 年替代\n率 45%，每增 1 年增加 2%，最高 90%，上限標準與國軍一致，避免不公平的待遇。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T15:30:39.879000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:31:15.002000+08:00","text":"新增退休待\n遇規定計算標準，退休警察待遇應與現職同等級的人員掛勾，隨薪資調整，明訂附表增加退休\n替代率的對照表，保障透明化，我們修正的理由是高風險需要高保障，還有警消、海巡的特殊\n工作比較高風險，希望提供因應的退休保障。","quality":0.908},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T15:31:15.522000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:31:16.723000+08:00","text":"第二，與國軍一致性是參考國軍的模式，確保公\n平與合理性。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T15:31:16.743000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:31:40.962000+08:00","text":"第三，回應現實的需求，應對兩岸的緊張、戰爭的風險等國安的挑戰，我們希望\n修法能夠提升警消、海巡的保障，回應高風險的工作需求，並與國軍退休的制度要一致，符合\n公平原則，我們希望不要千辛萬苦，領的是 1,000、2,000 的「千薪」，但是萬苦，這樣子對我\n們的警消也好，警察也好，海巡也好，是很不公平，所以我們希望要一致，以上報告，謝謝。協 23","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T15:31:40.962000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T15:31:52.599000+08:00","text":"謝謝台灣民眾黨麥玉珍委員發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T15:31:52.599000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T15:32:04.236000+08:00","text":"蔡易餘書記長請發言，然後請銓敘部、人事總處跟內政部準備。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2025-01-06T15:32:04.236000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:32:40.858000+08:00","text":"警消是高風險的工作，但是跟軍職還是有本質上的不同，軍人是 24 小時在營區，基\n本上在營區的時候，某種程度也是限制了他的一些自由，他的移動自由或者居住的自由，所以\n軍職當時在設計上用 90%，主要也是這樣，還有軍職的服役期間相對是比較短。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2025-01-06T15:32:41.958000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:33:01.265000+08:00","text":"比較短的話，\n也很容易讓軍職的人一旦沒有升上去，基本上就是退休，很多軍職的狀況就是他的服役期間不\n長，但是他可能當到了少校、中校沒有機會再往上去，就變成他被退休了。","quality":0.877},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2025-01-06T15:33:01.885000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:33:19.430000+08:00","text":"退休時如果所得替\n代率太低的話，因為他的服役年限不夠，所得替代率如果低，基本上這一件事情對軍職是相對\n不公平的，所以軍職當時的設計是基於這樣的關係，本質上跟公務員就不一樣。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2025-01-06T15:33:20.190000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:33:42.054000+08:00","text":"那我們回到公務員，公務員的部分當然警消、海巡是屬於比較危險的工作，也是因為工作危\n險，所以他除了有危險的加給之外，我們過去內政部、警政署、消防署也都有針對勤務的加給\n，事實上也都有在增加。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2025-01-06T15:33:43.954000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:34:07.447000+08:00","text":"這樣的增加有一個重點就是我們要讓現職、現在在服務的公務員，他\n們有更好的一個待遇，因為他們想要留下來，我們是希望好的人才繼續留在現職上，繼續去服\n務，而不只是期待他們退休然後領得好。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2025-01-06T15:34:08.147000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:34:40.002000+08:00","text":"當然退休領得好也是一個要件，但是我們更期待他可\n以在工作崗位上好好地表現，所以我們現在去把所得替代率貿然地提高，不管是國民黨現在講\n80%，還是剛剛我聽麥玉珍講 90%，如果你要把它提高到這樣，馬上可能要面對大退休潮，可能\n很多我們現職這些警察人員或者是消防人員，他們就說我如果可領 90%，我就退休不要服務了\n，那這樣是好的事情嗎？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2025-01-06T15:34:40.002000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:35:07.374000+08:00","text":"我們知道這幾年，事實上很多警校不管在招生的時候，因為少子化，基本上他們在招生已經\n有一個困難性，你現在如果因為這樣制度的改變，然後又馬上面臨了一個大退休潮的話，這樣\n一個制度的改變是好的嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2025-01-06T15:35:07.634000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:35:34.635000+08:00","text":"再者，我要再去強調，如果我們抓 80%，如果這樣的話，大概是在\n警監視的時候，跟所謂公務員在十職等的狀況，如果以軍士官就是上校的狀況，變成警察在這\n一個階段退休的，他領的……如果以 80%還沒有算到 90%喔！","quality":0.916},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2025-01-06T15:35:34.635000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:35:57.436000+08:00","text":"警察就領到大概 8 萬 4,000，而公\n教領 6 萬 9,000，軍職到了上校才領 8 萬 2,000，就單這一階大家去做比較，事實上還是會產生\n不公平，工作之間就不公平，尤其你反映到軍職的這一塊。","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2025-01-06T15:35:57.756000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:36:14.266000+08:00","text":"軍職我們已經有拉了，可是軍職他\n服役的時間點就是比較短，你這樣比較就會覺得說做到上校，結果你退休領 8 萬 2,000，比警監\n視退休抓 80%來說，領得還比較少。","quality":0.746},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2025-01-06T15:36:17.489000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:36:50.159000+08:00","text":"所以我覺得在制度的設計上，大家都希望我們的公務員、警察有更好的一個待遇，總之制度\n的設計，我們必須思考得更加完善，所以我還是主張大家可以好好地去想，我們應該讓現職的\n公務人員，像現職的今年有加薪，退休的我們也是會把他調整，而且我們希望未來還可以用制\n度化的調整，就是說退休的後面隨著物價指數也有在調整。","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2025-01-06T15:36:51.280000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:36:59.771000+08:00","text":"那不要去更動制度，因為現在一更\n動制度的話，更動了警消，那未來其他公務員呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2025-01-06T15:37:01.042000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:37:01.922000+08:00","text":"有沒有需要更動？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2025-01-06T15:37:01.922000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:37:04.424000+08:00","text":"他們如果真的有來反映要\n更動的話。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2025-01-06T15:37:04.424000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:37:16.909000+08:00","text":"好，那就回到我剛剛講的軍職部分，在同樣一個位階時，他領的比較少，那軍職比\n較不辛苦嗎？","quality":0.838},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2025-01-06T15:37:16.909000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:37:17.790000+08:00","text":"他們也是很辛苦啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2025-01-06T15:37:19.027000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:37:19.568000+08:00","text":"這是第一個。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2025-01-06T15:37:19.688000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:38:37.230000+08:00","text":"第二個，我覺得剛剛我們總召用了很多的時間\n在還原一些事情，事實上我也想跟院長建議，院長你主持協商，我希望是一個有效的協商，比\n協 24\n如說剛剛在處理觀光發展條例時，提案的王美惠委員提出他的意見，希望可以把罰則提高，他\n有發言，他講這個也無關立場啊，他只是為了讓未來的觀光業者警惕，不能把人帶出去之後，\n錢都收了就把人家丟包，過去罰得太輕沒有感覺，他希望加重，可是院長你後來也沒有針對他\n發言之後再看一下，看大家就這個條文是否可以接受提案人的想法，院長你只是讓我們這樣 run\n的講完，然後你就說休息，這樣的協商變成我們在這裡只是在跑形式，我覺得實在很可惜，我\n們現在說的都可以就事論事，如果條文本身有沒有調整的空間，我覺得院長你可以協助我們，\n至少大家衡平抓個調整空間，如果真的講的都是各說各話，國民黨講國民黨，民眾黨講民眾黨\n，你覺得沒有空間，那你當然說這一條留待院會處理。","quality":0.899},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2025-01-06T15:38:37.670000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:38:38.511000+08:00","text":"可是剛剛第五十三條之一，王美惠講的有什麼不對？","quality":0.619},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2025-01-06T15:38:38.511000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:38:39.031000+08:00","text":"那為什麼不嘗試處理看看？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2025-01-06T15:38:52.982000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:39:05.868000+08:00","text":"所以我覺得\n院長在協商的時候可以讓這個協商更有效能，我們不是只要協商過而已，這個協商要有要有作\n用，好不好？謝謝。","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T15:39:05.868000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:39:34.540000+08:00","text":"蔡易餘書記長，謝謝你，我簡短回復一下，蔡易餘書記長的意思是，不要為協商而協商，最\n後感覺好像只是一個過場，其實我很希望能夠達成共識，我連剛才達成共識的文稿都寫好了，\n可是實際上各位剛才的發言，不要說情緒跟氣氛，連內容都沒有辦法，使得我不得不在今天 8\n個議案裡面做一些時間上跟決策上的處理，否則我們就完全沒有效率了。","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T15:39:34.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:39:59.394000+08:00","text":"我們第一個案子就討\n論快一個半小時了，現在第二案又是快一個多小時了，後面還有 6 個案在等，所以我要跟蔡易\n餘書記長講，我的想法跟你一樣，我很希望大家能夠跟行政部門一起討論、達成共識，真的不\n行，那只能送院會，那是不得已的手段，我很不喜歡用這個手段，你看我每次都很為難地說：\n這個案子我們就留待院會。","quality":0.792},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T15:39:59.974000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:40:02.816000+08:00","text":"我都不太願意講這個話，我特別跟你報告，也跟大家報告一下。","quality":0.64},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T15:40:03.276000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:40:09.921000+08:00","text":"接下來我們請銓敘部的施部長表達意見，您的意見非常重要，請。","quality":0.538},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-01-06T15:40:11.668000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:40:12.748000+08:00","text":"主席、各位委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-01-06T15:40:12.748000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:40:25.440000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席在表定明天要表決之前讓主管機關之一──銓敘部有機會\n在這裡跟大家就事實跟數據對大家做一個充分的說明。","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-01-06T15:40:26.161000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:41:17.584000+08:00","text":"我想這個案子經過委員會的一讀會還有\n後面的協商過程，本部曾經兩度提出書面意見，也都表示不贊成這個修法，這個修法事實上影\n響了不僅僅是現職跟已退的警察人員，其實更會影響到人數超過警職人員大概五倍多的廣大現\n職跟已退休的其他公務人員跟教育人員，這個案子不僅僅是牽涉退撫基金的財務問題、政府支\n出的問題，其實對銓敘部來講更重要的是牽涉到非常嚴重的憲法平等原則，它將產生整個退撫\n制度不公平的問題。","quality":0.884},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-01-06T15:41:17.584000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:41:30.776000+08:00","text":"其實這個案子大家都知道，現在我們用的理由有兩個，一個是因為現職危勞，因此退休所得\n替代率要增高；一個是因為軍人有 90%，所以要比照 90%。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-01-06T15:41:32.701000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:41:50.032000+08:00","text":"部裡面很負責任地跟大家分析，其\n實這兩個意見我們都不認為要支持，我簡單地說，第一個，關於現職工作危勞，剛剛有委員也\n提到，我們在現職的待遇跟福利制度上都已經有特別的對待，退休就沒有危勞的事實啊！","quality":0.816},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-01-06T15:41:50.032000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:41:50.772000+08:00","text":"所以\n現職危勞是不是適合繼續延伸，就是退休後還要叫做危勞嗎？","quality":0.63},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-01-06T15:41:50.892000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:41:51.253000+08:00","text":"這其實是一個邏輯的問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-01-06T15:41:59.967000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:42:56.370000+08:00","text":"第二個，軍人的工作跟警察的工作當然都是危勞，但是這兩者事實上還是有點不太一樣，包\n協 25\n括剛剛有提到，軍人的服役特性其實跟警察是不一樣的，所以兩個也不適合完全來做比照，這\n個法一旦通過以後，其實很簡單講，就創造一個很大的差距，以 80%、35 年年資這個版本來看\n，不管是未來要退休的或者已退休的，因為這個修法包括要把已退休的，也都要重新回來計算\n，大概就會有 80%，馬上就會變 80%，其他的公務人員，則是一直按照我們的規定一直降、降\n、降，降到 118 年會是 60%，所以就是產生 20%的差距，這 20%差距是所得替代率，可是最重\n要還是要回到這中間到底錢差了多少，我先大概做這樣一個說明。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-01-06T15:42:57.111000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:43:08.662000+08:00","text":"以下我大概分幾個面向很快地跟大家報告部裡面的看法，第一個面向，這個法如果通過，它\n絕對對退撫制度公平性產生最嚴重的影響。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-01-06T15:43:09.984000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:43:30.118000+08:00","text":"在退撫制度裡面，本部最在意的是公平性，這個公\n平性的意思是說，大家同樣參與這個基金，大家繳一樣的錢，根據相同標準去繳錢，也繳一樣\n的費率，怎麼會警察人員退休的時候，他的給付就要比一般的公務人員高？","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-01-06T15:43:30.458000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:43:56.448000+08:00","text":"除非警察人員自己\n自成一套體系，重新計算過，就像軍人一樣，有自己一套基金，可是目前不是、以前也不是，\n所以現在硬拉成 80%，這真的是嚴重地破壞了整個退撫制度，跟退撫基金最在意的，要平等對\n待所有的參與者，這是一個憲法平等原則的問題，本部最在意這個事情，這是第一個面向。","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-01-06T15:43:57.249000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:45:40.372000+08:00","text":"第二個面向，我要跟大家報告，若真的改成 80%，以後它會創造出一個幾乎所有文官沒有辦\n法接受退休所得的差距，這個退休所得差距就是獨厚警職工作到難以想像，我用一個數字跟大\n家報告，因為大部分警察人員退休的時候，就以基層員警來看，大概都會到 525 的俸點，大概\n占 8 成，這代表的是基層的警察，然後這 525 的俸點，根據現在這個修法，他們月退休所得的\n上限，我們估算過，如果用 113（去）年來估算，大概月退休所得的上限會是 7 萬 4,544 塊，如\n果今年再調薪，就會增加到 7 萬 6,780 塊，這個數字大概比常務次長、司處長都還高一點點，更\n何況十一職等以下的所有公務員都比他低、所有高中以下的老師都比他低、大學裡面的教授也\n比他低，我想這是一個用事實算出來的數據，包括我們在地方政府服務的所有同仁，因為我們\n地方政府的職等很少超過十二職等的，他們也都不會比他高，更何況同樣有其他危勞的同仁，\n譬如說監所管理員、醫護人員，他就適用其他的公務人員制度，不會像警察一樣，這個法律不\n會處理到這些事情，其他譬如說從事保護性社工的，各式各樣的，通通是用一般公務人員的概\n念，它不會處理到這個事情。","quality":0.908},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-01-06T15:45:40.753000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:45:57.809000+08:00","text":"所以，我只是要跟各位報告，這個 80%最上限的算法，真的會衝\n擊到臺灣所有公務人員、文官的信念，怎麼退休所得差距竟然會到這麼大！","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-01-06T15:45:59.151000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:46:02.594000+08:00","text":"20%代表的是一個數\n字，轉過來還是一個數字的問題。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-01-06T15:46:02.775000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:46:52.996000+08:00","text":"事實上，我們以現況來看，大概是 8 成左右的基層員警，就\n以 525 的俸額退休的人，其實他拿的相當於是公務人員八職等的薪水，這樣轉換過來，他的退\n休金都是一樣，因為沒有比較不一樣，所以退休所得上大家都一樣，而這兩個本來就差了大概\n快 8,000 塊，也就是說 525 俸點的跟八職等的人相較，大概就差了 8,000 塊，以現在這個數字去\n算，即使都不調整，假設大家都不調這個法，2024 年所有的警職人員平均、95%以上，實質的\n退休所得大概是 5 萬塊以上，以去年新退休的來說大概是 5.9 萬。","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-01-06T15:46:55.428000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:47:27.942000+08:00","text":"我跟大家報告，這樣的數字，\n如果根據剛剛的條文再調整，可以想像未來基層的退休警察人員，不是更高階的警官，大概年\n所得上限可能會到 92 萬元，已經超過今年發布的退休金免稅所得 86 萬元，還比民間薪資，不\n管是月薪資或經常性薪資高。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-01-06T15:47:28.543000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:47:33.608000+08:00","text":"所以我必須很負責任地跟各位報告這些數據。","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-01-06T15:47:33.788000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:47:38.153000+08:00","text":"協 26\n第三個面向是，真的會衝擊警力的穩定性，為什麼？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-01-06T15:47:38.493000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:47:55.732000+08:00","text":"根據新制度算出來是七萬多塊，相當於\n現職 525 警政四階月薪，這月薪是指 525 俸點加專業加給，再加警勤加給，大概等於九成。","quality":0.792},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-01-06T15:47:55.852000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:48:08.783000+08:00","text":"想\n想看，如果退休的時候可以拿九成，這對警力維持會有衝擊，我想這也是大家要去思考的問題\n。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-01-06T15:48:08.783000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:48:19.767000+08:00","text":"第四個我要講的是，現職工作確實且絕對有危險，可是在現在的退撫制度上與現職待遇上，\n都對警察人員有特別對待。","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-01-06T15:48:20.567000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:48:33.807000+08:00","text":"譬如現職退撫制度、警察人員自願退休的歲數，還有請領月退歲數\n都比公務人員早，法律上可以容許到十歲。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-01-06T15:48:33.807000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:48:38.773000+08:00","text":"但每個人的狀況不太一樣，反正在十歲以下是可以\n的，而這並不是公務人員有的。","quality":0.758},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-01-06T15:48:40.054000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:49:06.234000+08:00","text":"就現職待遇來說，我們了解這部分是人總管的，但我們大概知\n道現況是：平均警察的月所得大概比公務人員多出 10%；如果是最高警員以下的比例更高，我\n必須坦白跟大家報告這是現職的狀況，更何況以其他福利來說，有些警察有，但公務人員是沒\n有的。","quality":0.706},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-01-06T15:49:07.154000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:49:14.890000+08:00","text":"回過頭來說，警察危勞、現職工作危勞，當然危勞，但是不是一定要退休以後再給他特別對\n待？","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-01-06T15:49:15.670000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:49:17.151000+08:00","text":"其實已經退休就沒有危勞的事實了！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-01-06T15:49:18.312000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:49:24.475000+08:00","text":"至於會不會因為在職時的危勞其健康會風險比較高，\n所以我們應該給予特別對待？","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-01-06T15:49:25.136000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:49:26.176000+08:00","text":"事實上不是這樣子的！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-01-06T15:49:26.737000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:49:41.957000+08:00","text":"根據警政署自己發布的資料來看，2022 年\n時，退休警察人員平均死亡年齡大概是 77.93 歲，與國人 20 歲以上死亡者沒有什麼太大差別，\n跟一般公務人員也沒有什麼太大差別。","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-01-06T15:49:42.558000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:49:58.170000+08:00","text":"也就是說，退休以後的健康平均狀況並沒有什麼太大差\n別，就是 77.93 歲，我只是把事實跟各位做報告。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-01-06T15:49:59.371000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:50:02.234000+08:00","text":"第五個面向，警職適不適合跟軍職比？","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-01-06T15:50:03.565000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:50:09.029000+08:00","text":"我想院長也在軍職待過，所以工作情境狀況我就不說\n了。","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-01-06T15:50:09.029000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:50:11.951000+08:00","text":"可是我必須坦白講，警職的月薪與軍職對應來講是高於軍職的！","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-01-06T15:50:12.091000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:50:12.491000+08:00","text":"一個上尉拿的錢，可能不\n見得比 525 的警察來得高。","quality":0.684},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-01-06T15:50:12.711000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:50:50.692000+08:00","text":"其次，軍職役期短，很少有軍職可以超過待 30 年，因為軍職有最大\n服役年限，升不上去就要被強迫退休；以前或許差不多，但最近幾年平均基層警察差不多都服\n役到 35 年年資，結論是這樣子。","quality":0.676},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-01-06T15:50:53.633000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:51:04.403000+08:00","text":"我以最多人的 525 警察對照軍職來看，理論上應該是上尉或少\n校，不過結論是什麼？","quality":0.656},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-01-06T15:51:04.563000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:51:18.446000+08:00","text":"警察拿的錢比軍職高蠻多的，這裡我就不做敘述，也不想談軍職薪水的\n議題。","quality":0.677},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-01-06T15:51:18.666000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:51:24.367000+08:00","text":"第六個是最後結論，我要談對基金的影響。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-01-06T15:51:25.228000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:51:33.881000+08:00","text":"由於提高了，基於大家使用同一套基金，所以基\n金用罄的年度，根據精算會提早兩年。","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-01-06T15:51:34.741000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:51:35.502000+08:00","text":"這兩年怎麼產生的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-01-06T15:51:37.163000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:51:51.074000+08:00","text":"如果以五十年來精算的話，本來年\n改時只要是節省的錢，譬如所得替代率下降，因為優存減少了，舊制減少了，這些錢都會回撥\n挹注基金，現在以五十年來算，大概少了快 1,093 億元。","quality":0.69},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-01-06T15:51:54.748000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:52:16.447000+08:00","text":"可是接下來還有另外一個，因為所得替\n代率增加了，所以那個基金裡適用新制的人事實上錢就要增加比以前更多，這個大概有 668 億\n元，所以加起來大概 1,700 億，你可以講說這大概是 50 年，看起來好像不是很大，50 年去除，\n可是它確實對基金來講就是提早 2 年，其他人要幫忙負擔這個部分，那缺口怎麼辦？","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-01-06T15:52:16.767000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:52:30.947000+08:00","text":"現在修法\n的缺口是由政府來撥補，政府來做撥補就涉及到預算法，因為畢竟這不是行政部門的提案，我\n想這是另外一個 story。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-01-06T15:52:30.967000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:52:50.106000+08:00","text":"可是這個修法裡也沒有提到那個 1,000 億到底要怎麼辦，因為修法談的\n是六百多億，如果那 1,000 億幾乎都是要政府支出，因為那是優存減少，跟舊制本來就是各級政\n府要負擔的事情，所以這個部分法律也沒有談到這個事情。","quality":0.843},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-01-06T15:52:51.648000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:53:02.399000+08:00","text":"協 27\n最後一點，退休所得真的不應該隨現職人員待遇的調整而調整，這幾乎是大部分主要國家的\n通例，為什麼？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-01-06T15:53:02.399000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:53:44.306000+08:00","text":"因為現職人員的薪水要不要調整有很多很多的因素，不應該只有考慮譬如像 CPI\n，因為退休人員本來最重要的是維持他的實質購買力不要減少太多，所以我們現在本來就有一\n個機制，CPI 累計達 5%時就會調整他們的退休所得，這是世界上幾乎大部分的主要退休制度都\n會走的一個方式，可是現職人員不應該只考慮 CPI 啊，我可能因為工作辛苦、表現好什麼的，\n政府本來就有一些其他的考量因素，不會只有用 CPI，所以不應該把這兩個掛在一起，這次的修\n法談到這個，我們我們認為維持現制應該還是比較正確的方式，因為現職的公務人員就是這樣\n走的。","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-01-06T15:53:46.044000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:53:53.569000+08:00","text":"以上我大概把部裡面的意見做一個很充分的說明，也謝謝主席給我比較長的時間來談這些。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-01-06T15:53:55.010000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:54:02.635000+08:00","text":"最後，我知道依照黨團協商的決議，這個案子明天就是要表決，所以請讓我再做一點點感性的\n陳述。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-01-06T15:54:04.936000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:54:15.243000+08:00","text":"今年的 520 我是第三次進到政府部門服務，我想我對臺灣的文官制度跟政府的體系，各\n式各樣的，我大概有相當程度的了解。","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-01-06T15:54:15.723000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:54:48.074000+08:00","text":"在我擔任前一個工作──人事長任內，我想我大概是歷\n任人事長裡面對現職警察人員的待遇跟福利最支持的人事長，我現在轉到銓敘部來了，這個涉\n及的不是現職人員，是退休，我覺得對於退休的部分就必須非常非常清楚地講，銓敘部主管的\n是退休法律、制度跟基金，我必須要對所有公務人員負有守護每個公務人員在這個基金裡面被\n平等對待的憲法的平等的責任。","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-01-06T15:54:50.574000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:55:05.682000+08:00","text":"今天謝謝有這個機會讓我很清楚地說明這個法如果按照這個方式通過，將會有很嚴重很嚴重\n的後果，不然我就是對不起所有全體的公務人員，不是只有警察人員，因為大家都是文官體系\n裡面的一個人。","quality":0.916},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-01-06T15:55:07.643000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:55:42.839000+08:00","text":"如同我剛剛所提過的，其他有比警察人員的人數超過五倍的已經退休或是現職\n的公務人員跟教育人員，他們如果也學這一套，還好我們大部分的公務人員不太會做這樣的事\n情，他們如果也說要來說服立委幫他們提案，對銓敘部來講，即使他們只要求增加 1%，就是單\n獨調高 1%，部裡面的立場都不會贊成，因為這就是違反了退撫制度最需要的大家平等對待的原\n則。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-01-06T15:55:42.979000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:55:59.397000+08:00","text":"我想我 520 在進來以後之前，大院的委員們經常告訴我們說行政部門在做決策的時候不要\n用政治凌駕於專業，我想部裡面非常非常遵守這個原則，我今天提出我們部裡面的專業意見。","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-01-06T15:55:59.677000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:56:22.984000+08:00","text":"最後，我還是要講一次，修法所持的兩個理由，就是說因為危勞或者應該比照軍人，對於這\n兩個理由，部裡面的分析結果都認為實在是沒有辦法支持，因為這兩個理由不足以支持在給與\n退休給付的部分這麼高的一個特別的對待，修法的結果就會破壞憲法的平等原則。","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-01-06T15:56:22.984000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:57:09.193000+08:00","text":"最後我想談的是，這個法明天如果通過，我認為會碰到一個問題，就是我們必須要開始做後\n續的行政作業程序，這個行政作業程序是要重新審核三萬多名退休警察的退休金，本部只有一\n個科，大家知道我們中央政府一個科可能不到 10 個人，所以它需要一段的作業時間，我們會比\n較建議，事實上今天也大概跟內政部的同仁有交換過意見，有關這個事情，因為我們修的是警\n察人員人事條例，所以這部分的後續工作，我們會建議是由內政部來接手，就是那個審核的事\n情，當然我們一定會提供很多的協助……","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-01-06T15:57:10.974000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:57:30.619000+08:00","text":"最後還要提醒一個事情，因為根據法律，重新計算的標準是依照現職的待遇，以現職\n協 28\n的待遇來說，現在是 114 年了，今年又有一個調薪案還不確定，如果今年的調薪案是確定的話，\n這一定要等調薪案通過……","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T15:57:30.619000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T15:57:31.619000+08:00","text":"協商……你到底在扯什麼啊？","quality":0},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-01-06T15:57:30.619000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:57:34.921000+08:00","text":"我們才能夠往下去計算，我想跟各位委員報告……","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T15:57:34.921000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T15:57:35.921000+08:00","text":"不是啊，主席，他講的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:57:35.921000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T15:57:36.921000+08:00","text":"輪我講話好不好？","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:57:36.921000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T15:57:37.921000+08:00","text":"你有意見等一下再講嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T15:57:37.921000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T15:57:38.921000+08:00","text":"沒關係，我們等一下再發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T15:57:35.781000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:57:35.781000+08:00","text":"施部長，謝謝你。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T15:57:35.781000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T15:57:45.249000+08:00","text":"講那麼久，越講越離譜！","quality":0.111},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:57:45.249000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:57:45.609000+08:00","text":"講得太有道理了！","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T15:57:45.849000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:57:53.192000+08:00","text":"沒有問題，我們讓行政部門發言一下，不要急嘛！","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T15:57:55.253000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:57:55.973000+08:00","text":"不要急，行政部門來了……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T15:57:55.973000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T15:57:56.973000+08:00","text":"……是要嚇唬誰！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T15:57:56.973000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T15:57:57.973000+08:00","text":"每天在造謠！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T15:57:56.513000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:57:57.034000+08:00","text":"等一下，請聽我講話好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T15:57:58.194000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:57:59.295000+08:00","text":"柯總召，我讓人事處蘇人事長說明。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T15:57:59.295000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:58:12.517000+08:00","text":"請蘇人事長，不好意思，請把時間掌握一下。","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T15:58:12.697000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:58:14.499000+08:00","text":"蘇人事長俊榮：院長、各位委員，大家午安。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T15:58:15.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:58:27.109000+08:00","text":"我想我的立場跟銓敘部施部長的立場都一樣，因為我\n們必須要顧慮到一個很重要的絕對公平跟相對公平的問題，一個制度好不容易建立。","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T15:58:27.909000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:58:44.507000+08:00","text":"剛才大家\n有提到危勞的問題，這是事實，所以過去這幾年從施部長任內一直到我這裡，我們對警察人員\n的相關人力、待遇都給予相當的支持，我想這是一個事實，大家可以去打聽。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T15:58:44.507000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T15:59:12.543000+08:00","text":"然後危勞的部分\n是在他現職任內，當他退休之後應該就沒有危勞這個議題，所以我們在討論退休的待遇方面，\n坦白講，剛才施部長也講得很清楚，如果調到 80%的所得替代率，他的待遇甚至會跟我們常任\n文官的常務次長一樣，這樣對大部分的常任文官來說，我覺得是一種士氣的打擊。","quality":0.809},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T15:59:12.543000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:00:08.036000+08:00","text":"整個國家的\n努力進步應該是警察扮演很重要的角色，軍人也很重要，可是大家不要忽略掉大部分公務人員\n默默地在為這個國家努力，不能抹煞他們的努力，這一點大家都沒有去把那個實際的情況讓大\n家知道，我今天有這個責任，我必須要利用這個場合感謝所有公務人員過去幾十年來默默地為\n國家努力，所以不能讓他們感覺相對地不公平，警察部分拉上來，剛才大家也論述過了，軍人\n的服役時間短，軍人是在第一線準備打仗的人，當然警察他們也很辛勞，可是因為他們的年資\n比較長，結果在退休時他們所領的退休金跟軍人的部分相比，又拉上來了，就變成製造了另外\n一種不公平。","quality":0.854},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T16:00:08.197000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:00:35.737000+08:00","text":"我覺得好不容易有一個安定的情況，我必須要幫所有默默為國家努力的公務人員\n講這一句話，而且這裡面還有剛才大家提到的那些護士，以及在監所的這些戒護人力、空勤總\n隊，還有很多默默在為國家執行公權力的過程中有風險的這些人，難道他們沒有風險嗎？","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T16:00:35.737000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:00:36.137000+08:00","text":"還是\n有啊！協 29","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T16:00:36.137000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:00:37.790250+08:00","text":"謝謝人事長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T16:00:37.790250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:00:39.443500+08:00","text":"蘇人事長俊榮：謝謝。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T16:00:39.443500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:00:41.096750+08:00","text":"謝謝人事長，表達的很清楚。","quality":0.182},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T16:00:41.096750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:00:42.750000+08:00","text":"接下來請內政部劉部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-06T16:00:42.750000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:00:42.870000+08:00","text":"謝謝各位。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-06T16:00:43.771000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:01:09.991000+08:00","text":"對於剛剛所提到的部分，內政部站在警察人員人事條例主要主管機關的立\n場，我們大概有幾點要跟各位委員報告，第一個，我們現在要照顧的是以現在在服勤的警察人\n員為主，所以有關退休的退撫事項，根據我們憲法增修條文的規定，那是銓敘部的職掌，剛剛\n銓敘部長已經跟大家說明過。","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-06T16:01:10.111000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:01:31.203000+08:00","text":"我想我們站在現在內政部主管有關於現職警消的部分，包括提高\n警勤加給等等這些有 15 項，我們在歷次的協商裡面已經跟大家報告過，我就不再贅述，但是我\n們知道會產生的問題就是說，警察人員退休所得替代率如果修高，變成是不管是 90%或是 80%\n時，確實會產生人員結構跟不同世代上的差異。","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-06T16:01:31.203000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:02:06.321000+08:00","text":"我先從退職人數的部分跟大家報告一下，依據\n現在我手頭上的資料，現職的警察人數是 6 萬 8,120 人，剛剛我們才拿到，不好意思，所以有關\n的數據只是個大約數，就是在 36 年以上的所得替代比率，我們馬上就去算出來，目前要領到\n80%以上的人數是 7 萬 4,747 人，沒有錯，有 7 萬 4,747 人這麼多。","quality":0.836},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-06T16:02:17.989000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:02:55.037000+08:00","text":"在座有相當多曾經擔任過縣市議會的議員，都知道在哪裡退休就在那個地方的縣市政府領退\n休金，所以我們也很快地去調出來，譬如以去年 3 月分來看，關於中央跟地方退休的警察，從\n中央政府領退休金的警察人數是七千多，中央要付出的退休金額，舊制的退休金額是三億八千\n多萬；從地方政府退休的人數大約是 3 倍到 4 倍，有兩萬三千多人，總共要領的是十二億多。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-06T16:02:57.459000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:03:10.708000+08:00","text":"如果未來所得替代率提升到 80%的時候，不只是衝擊到中央政府的預算，地方政府的預算也會\n有影響到，只是我們沒有細算，這個部分跟大家報告。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-06T16:03:11.969000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:03:47.170000+08:00","text":"再來我要報告的就是，現職的警察總數是 6 萬 8,120 人的狀況之下，40 歲以下的警察人數是 3\n萬 5,122 人，所占的比率是 51.6%，也就是說現在的警察，不管因為少子化或是未來警勤制度跟\n著改換的狀況之下，他們參加所謂的警察退休制度繳納的金額，跟現在要退休的警察越來越多\n的狀況之下，恐怕在財務結構上會產生問題，而且有世代的差距。","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-06T16:03:48.212000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:04:11.679000+08:00","text":"剛剛銓敘部部長有特別提到\n，如果退休所得替代率往上調整的時候，會造成員警退休跟現職的薪俸差異縮小，這個狀況在\n短期內一定會造成大幅離退，因為他會覺得離退以後所領的退休金跟現在很辛苦地從事正職工\n作領到的薪水差別不大，這個真的會衝擊到我們維持社會治安穩定度的問題，只是我們沒有做\n細算。","quality":0.847},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-06T16:04:20.589000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:04:37.918000+08:00","text":"以上我所提的這幾個案例，大概就是銓敘部或者剛剛人事行政總處所提到的，第一個，中央\n、地方政府領退休金的人數，還有領退休金的金額，也必須要按照中央政府跟地方政府的分配\n的比例來做考量。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-06T16:04:38.418000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:04:59.546000+08:00","text":"第二個，現職警察的人數比 35 年以上拿到 80%的退休人數 74,747 比起來還少\n了將近一萬多人，所以這樣的財務結構未來可能會更惡化，只是我們現在沒有精算，因為對不\n起，剛剛我才拿到兩個黨的附件。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-06T16:05:00.447000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:05:10.914000+08:00","text":"以上這樣的報告，我們的立場還是一樣，第一個，我們仍然要積極照顧現職的警察，包括他\n們有危勞加給或者繁重加給的部分，我想各位都非常理解。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-01-06T16:05:12.415000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:05:22.922000+08:00","text":"同樣的，不管是行政單位或是軍公\n協 30\n教或是警察，我們都是一體的，我們希望退撫事項還是按照現行的職掌由考試院來負責，我們\n會全力配合，以上簡單報告。","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T16:05:24.143000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:05:27.645000+08:00","text":"謝謝內政部劉部長，謝謝各位行政官員的列席。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T16:05:28.666000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:05:33.329000+08:00","text":"各位黨團幹部，我們剛才發言的次序，第一輪已經發言完畢了，然後……","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:05:33.869000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:05:34.510000+08:00","text":"第一輪是國民黨講的，我沒有講。","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T16:05:34.630000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:05:38.813000+08:00","text":"沒有，你有講，你一開始就講了 23 分鐘……","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:05:38.813000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:05:39.053000+08:00","text":"那個是……","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T16:05:39.253000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:05:51.439000+08:00","text":"你講了，然後牛煦庭委員剛剛講了 7 分鐘，麥玉珍委員大概講了 6 分鐘，都講完了，各部會\n首長也都講完了，後來民進黨團又多了一個蔡易餘書記長又講了。","quality":0.77},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T16:05:52.279000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:06:03.784000+08:00","text":"所以，我知道，我要跟各位\n黨團幹部來報告一下交換意見，尤其剛剛蔡易餘點了一下我穴道，我的壓力很大，不要說討論\n完以後為協商而協商，我不是這個意思。","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T16:06:04.384000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:06:19.205000+08:00","text":"我們今天總共有 8 個案，我們現在才進入第二個案，\n所以我想跟各位黨團幹部來溝通一下，發展觀光條例跟警察人員人事條例，保留的部分我們就\n依照共識，我們在上星期五……","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:06:19.205000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:06:20.205000+08:00","text":"反對，我還沒有發言完畢，院長……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T16:06:19.946000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:06:24.171000+08:00","text":"我們進行相關的程序，那我們就……沒有，聽我說完嘛，看看大家的意見。","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T16:06:24.631000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:06:27.554000+08:00","text":"現在依照我們的\n黨團告訴我們要準備進行壯世代協商，大家有沒有意見？","quality":0.633},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:06:28.135000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:06:30.217000+08:00","text":"等一下、等一下、等一下，院長，我講一下……","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T16:06:30.337000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:06:34.761000+08:00","text":"沒關係，這樣好不好，沒關係，那我再提另外一個好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T16:06:35.261000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:06:38.364000+08:00","text":"各黨團再推派一位代表，每一個\n代表 3 分鐘。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:06:38.364000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:06:39.005000+08:00","text":"沒有這個事情。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T16:06:39.465000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:06:41.667000+08:00","text":"那你這樣，我們這個案子後面全部都不用講了……","quality":0.684},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:06:41.667000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:06:43.649000+08:00","text":"那就結束了，我們到第三案了。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:06:43.909000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:06:44.590000+08:00","text":"等一下、等一下，院長，院長……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:06:46.831000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:06:51.112000+08:00","text":"部會首長都已經發……三輪了，然後也超過 30 分鐘以上……","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:06:51.433000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:06:55.073000+08:00","text":"等一下，朝野協商是部會首長……將來要表決的是我們的耶！","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:06:55.073000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:06:56.274000+08:00","text":"沒有共識。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:06:56.274000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:06:57.514000+08:00","text":"沒有，都已經講完了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:06:58.694000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:06:59.555000+08:00","text":"你不是說要好好地來談嗎？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:06:59.675000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:06:59.695000+08:00","text":"已經談過了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:06:59.695000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:07:00.695000+08:00","text":"你不是說要講半個鐘頭嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:07:00.695000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:07:01.695000+08:00","text":"院長，等一下！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:07:01.695000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:07:02.695000+08:00","text":"我保證後面都很快。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:06:59.875000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:07:15.223000+08:00","text":"你們都兩個人談，我們才一個人談，你用了快要 1 個小時，我們只用 5 分鐘、7 分鐘\n，完全是不對等的，也完全是不平衡的。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:07:16.265000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:07:23.075000+08:00","text":"第二案已經有充分討論，你講 1 個小時還沒有充分討\n論，要講幾個小時才有充分討論？協 31","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:07:23.075000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:07:25.599000+08:00","text":"我剛才講半個鐘頭，你不是說你要跟我辯論半個鐘頭？","quality":0.773},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:07:25.599000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:07:26.200000+08:00","text":"我在等待啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:07:28.242000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:07:31.923000+08:00","text":"好，你要講，我就繼續講，我剛才說了，你講我就繼續講。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:07:32.143000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:07:33.183000+08:00","text":"那我講完你再講。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:07:33.663000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:07:35.524000+08:00","text":"我不要，你講我就要繼續講。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T16:07:35.524000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:07:36.524000+08:00","text":"你要徵求主席同意啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:07:36.524000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:07:37.524000+08:00","text":"我徵求同意，取得發言權嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T16:07:37.524000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:07:38.524000+08:00","text":"我們要徵求主席的同意啊！","quality":0.091},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:07:35.664000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:07:36.684000+08:00","text":"不是啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:07:36.864000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:07:39.225000+08:00","text":"你不尊重我，我剛才已經講，你看我剛才多尊重你。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:07:39.225000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:07:40.225000+08:00","text":"你說我講半個鐘頭，我哪有講半個鐘頭？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:07:39.345000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:07:41.465000+08:00","text":"我說你尊重院長，我尊重你，你不尊重我，我就不尊重你。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T16:07:41.465000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:07:42.465000+08:00","text":"插話的都是王鴻薇啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:07:42.465000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:07:43.465000+08:00","text":"院長，到底要不要開會？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:07:43.465000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:07:44.465000+08:00","text":"這樣要怎麼開會？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T16:07:44.465000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:07:45.465000+08:00","text":"今天插話的都是王鴻薇耶！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:07:42.006000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:07:42.126000+08:00","text":"院長，我們就繼續講啊！","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:07:42.546000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:07:42.926000+08:00","text":"你不是說要讓我講嗎？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:07:42.926000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:07:43.166000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:07:43.166000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:07:44.166000+08:00","text":"尊重發言，就慢慢講沒有關係……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:07:43.446000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:07:44.026000+08:00","text":"你要讓我講就讓我講啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T16:07:44.026000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:07:45.026000+08:00","text":"今天王鴻薇一直在插話耶！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:07:44.186000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:08:00.513000+08:00","text":"你不尊重我，我當然沒有辦法尊重你，你剛才講了那麼久，我通通尊重你，我完全沒\n有插話啊！","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T16:08:00.513000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:08:01.513000+08:00","text":"今天王鴻薇一直在插話耶！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:08:01.273000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:08:02.574000+08:00","text":"我沒有反對你講……","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-06T16:08:03.155000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:08:07.238000+08:00","text":"院長，讓我們司法委員會的召集人講一下話，好不好？","quality":0.476},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:08:07.238000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:08:08.238000+08:00","text":"那為什麼只有你們能講？","quality":0.1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T16:08:08.238000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:08:09.238000+08:00","text":"我要發言哪！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-06T16:08:09.238000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:08:10.238000+08:00","text":"院長，讓司法委員會的召委講一下話，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:08:10.238000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:08:11.238000+08:00","text":"院長已經做了裁示。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:08:11.238000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:08:12.238000+08:00","text":"那為什麼要……","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-06T16:08:12.238000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:08:13.238000+08:00","text":"院長，讓司法委員會的召委講一下話，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T16:08:13.238000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:08:14.238000+08:00","text":"這麼重要的議案，我想要發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:08:07.639000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:08:12.062000+08:00","text":"警察人員人事條例已經完成協商了，一直只有聽你們說，我們都不能說。","quality":0.621},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:08:12.062000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:08:13.062000+08:00","text":"協商沒有結論，我們就進行表決。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:08:12.423000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:08:13.223000+08:00","text":"我們只有一直聽你們說，我們都不能說，我們只有牛煦庭用了 5 分鐘，你們用了 1 個\n小時，還要一直講話，哪有這樣子的？","quality":0.348},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T16:08:13.223000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:08:17.667000+08:00","text":"就是王鴻薇一直在插話，我們都沒有辦法發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:08:17.667000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:08:22.111000+08:00","text":"協商沒有結論，我們就進行表決。協 32","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:08:22.111000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:08:22.932000+08:00","text":"我們為什麼要一直讓你們講？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T16:08:22.932000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:08:23.192000+08:00","text":"我們沒有發言……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-06T16:08:23.192000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:08:24.192000+08:00","text":"院長，這個跟司法委員會有相關……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:08:24.192000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:08:25.192000+08:00","text":"你有尊重別人嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:08:25.192000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:08:26.192000+08:00","text":"你沒有尊重別人……","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-06T16:08:26.192000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:08:27.192000+08:00","text":"能不能讓我們司法委員會的鍾佳濱來講一下話，好不好？","quality":0.087},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T16:08:23.713000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:08:24.133000+08:00","text":"為什麼一直在插話？","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:08:25.175000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:08:26.256000+08:00","text":"為什麼讓鍾佳濱來講話？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:08:28.138000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:08:28.378000+08:00","text":"為什麼我們不能夠講話？","quality":0.3},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T16:08:28.378000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:08:30.912667+08:00","text":"王鴻薇一直在插話。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-06T16:08:30.912667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:08:33.447333+08:00","text":"他是司法委員會的召委。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:08:33.447333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:08:35.982000+08:00","text":"什麼召委？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:08:35.982000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:08:38.516667+08:00","text":"我看不到，現在沒有人講話啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-06T16:08:38.516667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:08:41.051333+08:00","text":"讓司法委員會的召委講一下話，好不好？","quality":0.062},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T16:08:41.051333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:08:43.586000+08:00","text":"王鴻薇一直在插話。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-06T16:08:43.586000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:08:46.120667+08:00","text":"要講話給你講，好，那大家就二輪發言嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:08:46.120667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:08:48.655333+08:00","text":"蔡易餘已經講過了……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T16:08:48.655333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:08:51.190000+08:00","text":"王鴻薇不尊重別人發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:08:51.190000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:08:53.724667+08:00","text":"……3 分鐘啊……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:08:53.724667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:08:56.259333+08:00","text":"什麼二輪發言？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:08:56.259333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:08:58.794000+08:00","text":"你們已經二輪了，你們的額度用完了。","quality":0.133},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T16:08:58.794000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:09:11.704000+08:00","text":"林委員，現在各列席的官員都在這裡，如果大家再繼續這樣，我想官員看了我們委員之間比\n較激烈一點，那我想各位官員可以先離席了，好不好？","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:09:12.164000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:09:13.125000+08:00","text":"如果有問題，官員就要回答啊！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:09:13.305000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:09:16.527000+08:00","text":"如果有問題，官員就要回答，哪有叫官員先走的？","quality":0.684},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:09:17.248000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:09:17.628000+08:00","text":"協商沒結論。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T16:09:17.628000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:09:21.511000+08:00","text":"協商的時候我們要問官員啊！","quality":0.583},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:09:21.511000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:09:22.511000+08:00","text":"我們有問題，官員要回答。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T16:09:22.031000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:09:23.833000+08:00","text":"院長，我們要跟官員對話啊！","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T16:09:26.174000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:09:30.778000+08:00","text":"對這個重要的議案，要跟官員對話。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:09:30.778000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:09:31.778000+08:00","text":"你不必搞這一套啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:09:31.778000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:09:32.778000+08:00","text":"可以這樣隨便講一講就過去？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T16:09:30.778000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:09:32.839000+08:00","text":"我們有很多要垂詢官員的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T16:09:32.839000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:09:34.812500+08:00","text":"已經講 25 分鐘了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:09:34.812500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:09:36.786000+08:00","text":"讓你們先講沒有關係。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T16:09:36.786000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:09:39.791000+08:00","text":"協商就是要大家能夠好好對話、聚焦啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T16:09:48.086000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:09:54.950000+08:00","text":"不用啊！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T16:10:04.496000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:12:44.995000+08:00","text":"官員很樂意在這裡跟大家對話。","quality":0.385},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T16:14:02.173000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:14:39.455000+08:00","text":"那我們就休息 5 分鐘。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T16:14:39.595000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:19:11.918000+08:00","text":"休息（16 時 9 分）\n協 33\n繼續開會（16 時 20 分）","quality":0.455},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T16:20:20.900000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:20:30.992000+08:00","text":"各位黨團幹部請坐，我想這兩個案子，第一案我們送院會，第二案我們就一樣送院會。","quality":0.794},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T16:20:30.992000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:20:31.992000+08:00","text":"我們\n準備進入……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:20:30.992000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:20:34.476000+08:00","text":"院長，我們就講好，明天一定會表決。","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:20:34.476000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:20:42.207000+08:00","text":"今天這個案子是年改這麼大的案子，我們都還沒講，然後你就叫官員離席，這成何體\n統啊？","quality":0.694},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:20:42.728000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:20:49.038000+08:00","text":"那國民黨只有牛煦庭一個人講而已，我希望王鴻薇先講沒有關係，王鴻薇，你講 1 個\n鐘頭，我講半個鐘頭。","quality":0.78},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:20:54.384000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:20:55.465000+08:00","text":"我講 3 分鐘，你講 3 分鐘。","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:20:55.465000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:21:00.128000+08:00","text":"你要講 3 分鐘是你的事情，朝野協商哪有在限制時間的？","quality":0.682},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T16:21:00.288000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:21:07.533000+08:00","text":"沒有，柯總召，我要澄清一下，我不是不尊重官員，反而我是非常尊重官員，因為他們都已\n經把意見都講完了，也表達……","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:21:07.893000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:21:09.814000+08:00","text":"他講完了，國民黨不滿意，他要回答啊！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:21:10.354000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:21:10.835000+08:00","text":"國民黨可以詰問他啊！","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:21:11.915000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:21:12.476000+08:00","text":"國民黨詰問他，他可\n以回答啊！","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T16:21:13.236000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:21:15.798000+08:00","text":"因為我要進入第三案了，我才會請官員先離開。","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:21:15.798000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:21:19.380000+08:00","text":"沒有、沒有，朝野協商不是你說要進入第幾案就第幾案……","quality":0.682},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:21:19.380000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:21:24.946000+08:00","text":"本案我們都沒有講話。","quality":0.222},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T16:21:24.946000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:21:29.029000+08:00","text":"我要澄清一下，希望你不要誤解我，我尊重官員，我才會……","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:21:29.169000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:21:30.831000+08:00","text":"你尊重官員，就讓官員留下來。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T16:21:30.831000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:21:32.472000+08:00","text":"我知道、我知道，您先不要講。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T16:21:33.032000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:21:43.620000+08:00","text":"如果下一輪要繼續發言的話，現在民進黨有 3 位委員都舉手\n了，包括柯總召、吳思瑤幹事長，然後還有鍾佳濱召集委員。","quality":0.83},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T16:21:43.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:21:45.362000+08:00","text":"那藍軍現在國民黨團哪一位……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:21:46.923000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:21:47.083000+08:00","text":"主席，我們可不可以確認一下？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:21:47.103000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:21:47.483000+08:00","text":"我們這個案子事實上剛才也經過充分討論，是不是能\n確認……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:21:47.483000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:21:48.483000+08:00","text":"我都還沒講話就充分討論？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:21:47.483000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:21:48.404000+08:00","text":"你又在插我話，我才講不到 30 秒。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:21:48.444000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:21:51.026000+08:00","text":"我是想會議詢問一下，我們是不是可以確定我們\n有幾輪發言，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:21:51.247000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:21:52.548000+08:00","text":"因為我們下面都還有很重大的案子，剛才講的壯世代不重大嗎？","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:21:52.548000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:21:52.948000+08:00","text":"人家吳\n春城在這邊等了那麼久，對不對？","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:21:52.948000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:22:15.706000+08:00","text":"壯世代不用協商……要讓吳春城講，沒有錯。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:22:15.706000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:22:21.868000+08:00","text":"不要這樣，他要協商，我們進入協商，人家有要求，所以我們是不是最多兩輪，可不\n可以？","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:22:22.769000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:22:26.970000+08:00","text":"主席，兩輪，然後我們的發言一定會精簡，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:22:27.571000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:22:30.752000+08:00","text":"把重點講出來，但是因為民進黨黨\n團已經用完兩輪了，好不好？謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-06T16:22:30.752000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:22:40.327000+08:00","text":"兩輪是新的，從現在開始啦！協 34","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T16:22:40.327000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:22:42.869000+08:00","text":"讓我們反對方充分表達意見。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T16:22:42.869000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:22:46.312000+08:00","text":"柯總召，我請教一下，是您發言還是鍾佳濱發言？","quality":0.684},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:22:46.612000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:22:47.412000+08:00","text":"等一下，我先發言。","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:22:48.994000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:22:49.454000+08:00","text":"他們都要發言，幹事長要發言，召委都要發言。","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:22:49.454000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:22:51.695500+08:00","text":"我要講，我先來講。","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:22:51.695500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:22:53.937000+08:00","text":"現在開始一黨兩輪，都無所謂。","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:22:53.937000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:22:54.137000+08:00","text":"我現在要講了。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:22:54.137000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:22:55.137000+08:00","text":"好，你先講。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:22:54.217000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:22:54.917000+08:00","text":"你們都已經用兩輪啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:22:54.937000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:22:55.097000+08:00","text":"現在該我講可以嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:22:55.097000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:22:55.457000+08:00","text":"你講什鬼話？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:22:55.597000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:22:55.798000+08:00","text":"什麼講鬼話？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:22:56.678000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:22:57.198000+08:00","text":"廢話，現在開始每一黨兩輪，可以啦！","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:22:57.218000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:22:57.418000+08:00","text":"沒有啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:22:57.878000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:22:58.158000+08:00","text":"每一個政黨兩輪發言。","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:22:58.158000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:22:59.158000+08:00","text":"從現在開始。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:22:58.398000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:22:58.558000+08:00","text":"民進黨沒有這樣子「倒退嚕」……","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:22:58.558000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:22:59.558000+08:00","text":"針對本案……我還沒講過本案耶！","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:22:59.498000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:23:00.398000+08:00","text":"你們還「倒退嚕」，前面都是白算的嗎？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:23:00.398000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:23:21.623000+08:00","text":"沒有，主席，我們的議事規則應該要確立，\n好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:23:21.623000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:23:22.623000+08:00","text":"因為他們已經兩輪……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:23:22.283000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:23:23.564000+08:00","text":"我要正式發言了。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:23:24.764000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:23:26.184000+08:00","text":"主席不是你嘛，柯總召。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:23:26.184000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:23:27.184000+08:00","text":"朝野協商是要講話！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:23:26.905000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:23:32.967000+08:00","text":"主席又不是你啊，我在詢問主席，你是主席嗎？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:23:32.967000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:23:33.967000+08:00","text":"既然剛才對施部長有意見，你可以詰問他。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:23:32.967000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:23:35.707000+08:00","text":"你今天是主席嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:23:35.707000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:23:36.707000+08:00","text":"施部長在等你詰問。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:23:35.707000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:23:37.408000+08:00","text":"你不是主席好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:23:37.408000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:23:39.189000+08:00","text":"……在這裡「卸世卸眾」……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T16:23:39.189000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:23:49.782000+08:00","text":"柯總召，這樣好不好，民進黨再發言一位，然後國民黨團發言一位，台灣民眾黨再發言一位\n，我做……","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:23:50.343000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:23:51.864000+08:00","text":"至少兩位，一黨兩位。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T16:23:52.265000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:23:54.927000+08:00","text":"你不可能，這樣兩位下去，下面還有這六個案子。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:23:55.067000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:23:56.468000+08:00","text":"我保證後面的案子非常快。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T16:23:56.628000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:23:57.769000+08:00","text":"而且行政部門已經表達……\n協 35","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:23:57.769000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:24:01.052000+08:00","text":"現在不是你說可以、不可以，你是中立的。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:24:02.153000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:24:02.313000+08:00","text":"中立啊！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:24:04.334000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:24:04.975000+08:00","text":"保證今天一定會通過。","quality":0.444},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:24:04.975000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:24:07.476000+08:00","text":"各一個人不是中立嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:24:07.476000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:24:09.898000+08:00","text":"各一人發言不是中立嗎？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:24:10.378000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:24:18.723000+08:00","text":"沒有，一黨至少兩個，我們好好遵守這個規則，很快，你剛剛在吵的時間都過去了嘛\n，你怕人家講是不是？","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:24:18.863000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:24:19.643000+08:00","text":"還是你不會講？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:24:19.643000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:24:20.203000+08:00","text":"你要講清楚！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:24:20.363000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:24:23.625000+08:00","text":"不是啦，不然你說 3 分鐘，可以啊！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:24:24.226000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:24:24.686000+08:00","text":"你講 3 分鐘啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:24:24.686000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:24:25.686000+08:00","text":"每一黨再講一位。3 分鐘？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:24:25.686000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:24:26.686000+08:00","text":"說什麼「美國話」！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:24:26.686000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:24:27.686000+08:00","text":"不要「卸世卸眾」啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T16:24:27.686000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:24:28.686000+08:00","text":"開會要限時間嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:24:28.686000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:24:29.686000+08:00","text":"總召，不能講說 3 分鐘，你就不會講話……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:24:29.686000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:24:30.686000+08:00","text":"牛煦庭，你不要隨王鴻薇起舞，你是有未來的人，你還是讀過書的人，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:24:30.686000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:24:31.686000+08:00","text":"我們\n希望……","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T16:24:27.248000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:24:29.950000+08:00","text":"我們希望這個環境是公平的，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T16:24:30.070000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:24:30.931000+08:00","text":"我們就只有這個要求。對啊！","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:24:30.931000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:24:34.150200+08:00","text":"當然公平。","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T16:24:34.150200+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:24:37.369400+08:00","text":"我們自己的未來……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T16:24:37.369400+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:24:40.588600+08:00","text":"對我們不公平啊！","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T16:24:40.588600+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:24:43.807800+08:00","text":"我們的意見沒有表達，不讓我們表達。","quality":0.067},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:24:43.807800+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:24:47.027000+08:00","text":"朝野協商有沒有參加過？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:24:47.027000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:24:47.668000+08:00","text":"朝野協商大家可以講話，我會尊重你的發言……","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:24:48.308000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:24:52.952000+08:00","text":"主席，我們一位嘛，如果你們要讓柯總召發言，我們也沒有意見嘛，我們一人嘛。","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-01-06T16:24:52.952000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:24:53.793000+08:00","text":"我們尊重主席的裁示啦！","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:24:53.793000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:24:56.535000+08:00","text":"要讓柯總召發言，我也沒有意見啊！","quality":0.071},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T16:24:56.535000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:25:07.224000+08:00","text":"謝謝大家提出尊重主席的裁示，現在民進黨團發言一位、國民黨團發言一位、台灣民眾黨團\n發言一位，我們就結束所有的發言。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T16:25:07.885000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:25:09.046000+08:00","text":"請柯建銘總召，請發言，請掌握時間。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:25:09.987000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:25:15.017000+08:00","text":"將來到第三案的時候還是可以再講，我要講什麼那當然沒有辦法限制。","quality":0.724},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:25:18.684000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:25:19.204000+08:00","text":"院長、各位委\n員同仁……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-06T16:25:19.204000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:25:20.564500+08:00","text":"……不讓我講……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:25:20.564500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:25:21.925000+08:00","text":"等一下後面……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T16:25:21.925000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:25:26.266000+08:00","text":"你們現在柯總召在發言，鍾佳濱委員，請尊重一下柯總召，好嗎？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:25:26.406000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:25:29.786000+08:00","text":"後面那一案──壯世代，壯世代要成功就是要年金改革，不要破產，這個大家都可以\n說。","quality":0.457},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:25:44.782000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:25:53.985000+08:00","text":"協 36\n院長，我很尊重你，院長，所以我直呼院長，各位委員同仁、各位列席官員。","quality":0.759},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:25:53.985000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:26:24.335000+08:00","text":"今天是一個非\n常重要的時刻，剛才施部長講到最後，我認同他最後講的，他講到最後就是說，他在民進黨執\n政時期在政府官員裡面當三任部會首長，那一段話實在聽得非常動容，但他最後講一句話就是\n說，這個法通過以後，後續的作業程序非常長，我從這裡開始講，好不好？","quality":0.791},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:26:24.495000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:26:51.147000+08:00","text":"剛才我想施部長講\n的話是比較謙抑原則啦，其實剛才施部長開頭第一句話就是平等原則，平等原則是憲法第七條\n，中華民國人民，不分男女、宗教、種族、階級，在法律上一律平等。","quality":0.873},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:26:51.587000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:27:01.165000+08:00","text":"今天我要講這個東西，\n這個先確定，違反憲法的東西，其他後面都不必再講了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:27:02.185000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:27:15.868000+08:00","text":"所以在講憲法的平等原則，尤其年金\n改革，包括過去，現在警察人員這樣的事情、這樣調整的話，剛才兩個部長、三個部長都講得\n非常詳細。","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:27:15.868000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:27:33.492000+08:00","text":"我們要講一句話，針對國民黨代表，牛煦庭是留英的，我剛才在外面也跟他講：小\n牛，你是有前途的人，你不要為了國民黨亂講話。","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:27:36.625000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:27:57.302000+08:00","text":"你看洪委員就比較知道，他口罩遮起來不講\n，因為逼他講沒良心的話，他不講；只有王鴻薇當砲手；傅崐萁用個耳塞也不知道在看什麼東\n西；林思銘，我們都同鄉，你是律師，講謊話是不可以的！","quality":0.632},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:28:01.946000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:28:02.907000+08:00","text":"不要講謊話！","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:28:02.907000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:28:03.347000+08:00","text":"這是不行的！","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:28:04.954000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:28:11.397000+08:00","text":"這個是\n何其慎重的朝野協商，這不是小孩子在玩。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:28:11.397000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:28:12.397000+08:00","text":"講誠信。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:28:11.497000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:28:14.479000+08:00","text":"這不是小孩子在玩遊戲，所以從這裡開始。","quality":0.647},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:28:16.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:28:30.906000+08:00","text":"我第一次很認真聽牛煦庭講話，他講了 7 分鐘，我有一個感覺，唐詩三百首裡面有一首將進\n酒──君不見，黃河之水天上來，奔流到海不復回。","quality":0.661},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:28:31.287000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:28:56.372000+08:00","text":"那個氣勢非常磅礡，他講得很快，但是濁\n而不清，你那個講的話都鬼扯，濁而不清，而且很可惜，以你在國外的歷練以及你的學養，你\n不要照稿念，你念得太快了，你講話要講得能讓人家感動，講個學理出來、道理出來，這是我\n善意的建議。","quality":0.796},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:28:56.372000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:29:10.398000+08:00","text":"所以開頭第一句話最重要，案重初供，施部長開始講的就是憲法第七條的平等原\n則，沒有這個平等原則，以下都白講的。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:29:12.878000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:29:18.080000+08:00","text":"在蔡前總統執政的時候，我們展開年金改革國是會議\n，大家都經過這一段吧！","quality":0.774},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:29:19.401000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:29:57.750000+08:00","text":"每天都直播，call in 節目在講，有一個叫李來希，年改國是會議，我有\n參加年改國是會議，我想那時候很多委員都還沒進到立法院來，這時候我講這一句話就是，我\n來立法院 31 年，經過所有改革、經過所有法案，忝為總召 20 年，我看過的法案至少 6,000 個法\n案以上，我參加朝野協商全部不帶稿的，因為要把所有的法律原則講得很清楚、法律內容講得\n很清楚。","quality":0.796},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:29:58.710000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:30:15.110000+08:00","text":"所以我這樣講就是說，牛委員，你如果經過 training，你會非常 outstanding，連所得替\n代率都弄錯了，過去有委員說出席率講到出席「ㄕㄨㄞˋ」了，我就覺得奇怪，怎麼有出席「\nㄕㄨㄞˋ」？","quality":0.639},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:30:15.430000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:30:19.372000+08:00","text":"原來是出席率，這個博君一粲啦！","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:30:21.792000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:30:45.439000+08:00","text":"年金改革的時候如火如荼展開，那時候還有八\n百壯士，對立非常嚴重，大家不要忘記，就在我們青島崗哨停車場旁邊有一個八百壯士爬到樓\n上去，結果摔下來，當場死亡，衝突很嚴重，到最後改革還是完成了。","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:30:46.299000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:30:53.249000+08:00","text":"今天我們在談警察人員人事條例的時候，一些重大原則我相信大家都聽懂了吧！","quality":0.788},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:30:55.011000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:31:30.515000+08:00","text":"警察當然很\n辛苦，危勞獎金都有處理，這個時候要講公平的話，剛才蘇人事長也講過，每一個公務員都一\n樣，要公平、平等對待，不是只有警察，我不是反對警察和警消人員，而是要有一個公平原則\n，沒有這個公平原則，政府沒有辦法 run、都違憲，所以你講了半天，我們這樣講了半天，經過\n表決以後，其實這種釋憲的話絕對違憲！","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:31:31.355000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:31:41.290000+08:00","text":"我不知道國民黨現在要如何在憲政底下談這個事情，\n協 37\n我要講為什麼年金改革讓大家這麼注意？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:31:41.750000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:31:49.958000+08:00","text":"因為要永續，所以剛才施部長有講過一句話，這樣改\n的話提早兩年破產。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:31:54.609000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:32:12.755000+08:00","text":"既然一開始就違憲了，就沒有所謂後面要再去計算什麼將來的作業情形，\n那是不這樣說不行的，但是在我眼光裡面，我們大家要了解施部長用意就是在這裡。","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:32:12.755000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:33:35.806000+08:00","text":"那將來這到憲法法庭，我曾經為了國會擴權到憲法法庭，吳思瑤、鍾佳濱也都參加，不管是\n在暫時處分庭上或是憲法法庭上辯論，尤其我們都參加，憲法法庭裡面談到國民黨所提的法案\n有沒有違憲，當時有一個人非常特別，他以前也曾經當過考選部部長，也是在司法院的人，叫\n董保城，董保城本身也是學憲法的，他是國民黨請來講話的學者專家，關於國民黨版本有沒有\n違憲，他講了一句話，他拿了一張白紙貼在臉上，他說顯而易見，這不用講，一看就知道違憲\n了，董保城倒是到最後，國民黨請去的代表「漏氣」國民黨的版本，他說用目測就知道，一看\n就知道違憲，他拿一張紙貼在這裡，顯而易見。","quality":0.665},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:33:36.807000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:33:53.852000+08:00","text":"今天我們用同樣這一句話告訴國民黨，有沒有\n違憲，這個用膝蓋想也知道，不是顯而易見，因此為什麼王鴻薇一直不敢講，一直限制我們講 3\n分鐘，講過都不能再講？","quality":0.754},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:33:53.852000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:34:01.454000+08:00","text":"因為你拿不出一個論述，我在等待你們等一下下一輪怎麼講。","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:34:01.454000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:34:03.275000+08:00","text":"我馬上講給你聽，你已經超時了。","quality":0.077},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:34:03.275000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:34:07.678000+08:00","text":"你說你的，我說 10 分鐘，你說 20 分鐘，我都沒意見，但是我會洗耳恭聽。","quality":0.64},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:34:07.678000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:34:08.678000+08:00","text":"不用那麼久。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:34:07.678000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:34:15.644000+08:00","text":"在後面的時候，就算這一輪沒有，在下一個法案的時候，我還是可以講這個案子，立\n法委員發言是不受限制的。","quality":0.795},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:34:16.485000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:34:57.970000+08:00","text":"所以請坐我前排的國民黨，在你們即將走入歷史焚化爐的最後一刻，你們也要保持對\n國家的良心，剛才記者來問我，我說我是仗義直言，杖打藍白，國民黨既然要進入歷史焚化爐\n，這風雨欲來風滿樓的時刻，國民黨的黨主席、國民黨的傅總召，你們要像男子漢一樣，要有\nguts，你要出來論述如何加速國民黨死亡，你要當那個送行者，希望這些你都能聽得下去。","quality":0.822},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T16:34:57.970000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:34:59.471000+08:00","text":"柯總召，謝謝，不要離題，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:34:59.471000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:35:12.145000+08:00","text":"待會請你們好好講，我們在座的不管吳思瑤委員、李坤城委員、蔡易餘委員或鍾佳濱\n召委，都會給你們詳細的解答。","quality":0.696},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:35:15.707000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:35:19.489000+08:00","text":"等一下部會首長，施部長會給予迎頭痛斥的。","quality":0.611},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T16:35:19.489000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:35:21.791000+08:00","text":"謝謝柯總召發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T16:35:21.791000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:35:24.093000+08:00","text":"請國民黨黨團王鴻薇委員發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T16:35:24.093000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:35:26.395000+08:00","text":"台灣民眾黨請準備。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:35:26.395000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:36:02.812000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，我會儘量在最短的時間內，不會東扯西扯，還會提到什麼要送行等等之類\n，我覺得我們這樣一個協商應該要有效率，而且應該要就事論事，不要從天寶年間的遺事開始\n談，真的是浪費大家的時間，尤其每一個案子都非常的重要。","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:36:02.812000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:36:03.812000+08:00","text":"白頭宮女話當年，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:36:03.573000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:36:08.676000+08:00","text":"尤其剛才柯總召一開始講壯世代也非常重要……","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:36:08.676000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:36:09.676000+08:00","text":"商女不知亡國恨啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:36:09.676000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:36:10.676000+08:00","text":"隔江猶唱後庭花。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:36:09.016000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:36:10.777000+08:00","text":"所以其實我們接下來應該要討論壯世代這個基本法。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:36:15.859000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:37:17.426000+08:00","text":"我在一開始要先特別去澄清一件\n協 38\n事情，因為剛才銓敘部長又談到公務人員加薪沒有確定，我必須說，因為最近民進黨的委員包\n含林楚茵委員公然造謠，說公務人員不能夠加薪是因為在野黨故意拖延預算的審查，不審預算\n，但是事實上公務人員今年 114 年加薪 3%，這個其實是各政黨的共識，而我們的預算程序，其\n實我也有提供，過去 7 年來，除了去年比較特殊，因為去年是選舉年，而且總統換屆，所以整\n個總預算的三讀，去年確實，在前一年度的 12 月底之前完成三讀。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:37:18.386000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:38:46.714000+08:00","text":"但即使如此，有關於公務人\n員加薪的部分，公告實施期間仍然是到當年 1 月 8 日才開始實施；接下來前面的 6 年，我也必\n須講，前面 6 年大家也知道，都是民進黨的委員占絕大多數，在這樣的狀況之下，我剛才講的\n從 107 年至 112 年，沒有一年的總預算三讀是在前一年度的 12 月底前完成，甚至有關於公務人\n員調薪，還有到當年度的 1 月下旬，比如 28 日、29 日才完成三讀，但是它的實施時間到 2 月中\n，即使如此，等到通過之後仍然會追溯發放，不會影響公教人員調薪的權益，這個必須合先敘\n明，我們一定要講得非常清楚，不要連部長也在配合民進黨的委員製造假消息、假訊息，造成\n公務人員的人心浮動，我覺得這不是……尤其是人事相關單位應該要做的事情，這一點我們必\n須說明。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:38:46.794000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:39:12.646000+08:00","text":"第二點，剛才我也仔細聆聽，行政部門特別提到為什麼窒礙難行，特別講到對於其他的公務\n人員是不公平的，這樣的論述基本上是製造公務人員之間的對立，我覺得這一點並不可取。","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:39:13.226000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:39:50.095000+08:00","text":"尤\n其我們為什麼在這一次，除了警察，還有消防及海巡，可以看到政府一而再，再而三就是要加\n強臺灣的國防防備，所以一直提出來所謂的第二海軍，就是海巡單位；所謂的第二陸軍，就是\n警察人員，也就是現在政府防衛韌性的規劃裡面，警察人員和海巡人員事實上都已經被規劃到\n第二海軍及第二陸軍。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:39:50.095000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:40:08.843000+08:00","text":"所以我要講，在這樣的防衛規劃下，難道我們要跟警消說，雖然你們是\n第二海軍、你們是第二陸軍，但你們跟軍方還是不一樣的，我覺得這一點對於警察和海巡人員\n是不公平的。","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:40:21.006000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:40:33.513000+08:00","text":"另外我也聽到剛才行政部門說，非常擔心造成現職軍警消及海巡人員的離退。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:40:34.333000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:41:04.356000+08:00","text":"我在這邊要特\n別講，這些人員、弟兄，特別地危險，我把一個資料給大家看，比如警大的報名人數，當然一\n方面我承認有少子化的原因，但第一個是也比較危險，待遇也沒有特別好，警大的報名人數在\n108 年還有 4,683 人，但是到了 112 年急遽滑落至 2,793 人。","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:41:12.803000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:41:35.402000+08:00","text":"所以我們今天面臨的，不僅僅是你\n看到的這樣子，可能現職的說他乾脆趕快退休好了，但你另外一方面也要想到，如果我們希望\n能夠充實警消、海巡，達成第二海軍、第二陸軍之目的，是不是在他們的待遇上面也應該提升\n？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:41:36.783000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:41:45.185000+08:00","text":"剛才特別講，我們應該是對於現職人員，尤其他的警勤加給應該提高，這個我舉雙手贊成。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:41:45.765000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:41:53.987000+08:00","text":"但我也必須說，我們應該是一直到前年才提高了警勤加給，17 年來沒有調，才赫然發現，我們\n其實虧待警、消、海巡人員已經這麼久了。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:41:54.007000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:42:28.775000+08:00","text":"其實老實說，我們在這一次裡面、到目前為止，沒有辦法把移民署的人員，特別是空勤的人\n員納入，我覺得我們某些委員心裡上對這些弟兄也是過意不去的，尤其是空勤人員，剛剛他有\n特別提到，每次有颱風的時候、有災害的時候都叫大家留在家裡、不要出去，可是對不起，我\n們這些救災人員越是風大、越是雨大、越是有災害的時候，他們就要跑出去，但是這次空勤人\n協 39\n員沒有辦法把他補上去，我覺得都是遺憾啊！","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:42:28.795000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:42:51.761000+08:00","text":"我甚至很希望這次修法能夠把這些真的在防災裡\n面這麼重要環節的弟兄也補上去！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:42:51.801000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:42:53.142000+08:00","text":"接下來我要特別回應剛才也一再講的，每次都拿財務惡化來嚇唬我們！","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:43:05.955000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:43:28.761000+08:00","text":"剛才銓敘部長也講得\n非常清楚了啊，他已經有一個 50 年的估計，而他這個估計是按照原來所得替代率 90%來計算的\n，50 年的財務缺口是多少呢？1,772 億！","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:43:28.761000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:43:29.842000+08:00","text":"一千七百多億，不到一千八百億，這是 50 年的財務缺\n口。","quality":0.619},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:43:29.982000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:43:31.563000+08:00","text":"所以剛才一直在講：我們如果實施了，不得了啊，我們的退撫基金要提前破產！","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:43:31.563000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:43:32.263000+08:00","text":"雖然是 50\n年，你如果覺得 1,700 億的財務缺口這麼大，我請問一下，台電一年要虧多少？","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:43:32.303000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:43:32.464000+08:00","text":"台電一年喔！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:43:32.484000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:43:32.684000+08:00","text":"不\n是要等 50 年喔！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:43:58.530000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:44:02.432000+08:00","text":"一年 2,000 億起跳！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:44:04.253000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:44:06.735000+08:00","text":"台電一年虧損就是 2,000 億！","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:44:06.735000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:44:08.356000+08:00","text":"我們一直在講我們的能源政\n策錯誤啊！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:44:09.216000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:44:11.017000+08:00","text":"能不能改善台電的基本財務狀況？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:44:11.017000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:44:11.357000+08:00","text":"不做啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:44:11.778000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:44:12.118000+08:00","text":"就是不做啊！","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:44:14.679000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:44:15.460000+08:00","text":"用什麼辦法呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:44:16.581000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:44:16.581000+08:00","text":"撥補啊！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:44:17.561000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:44:20.623000+08:00","text":"所以如果 1,700 億是了不起的財務缺口，會讓我們的財政惡化到破產，那請問一下台電是不是讓\n我們整個國家都破產？","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:44:20.623000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:44:21.904000+08:00","text":"不是只有退撫基金破產喔！","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:44:21.944000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:44:22.265000+08:00","text":"我們國家是不是會因此為台電而破產？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:44:22.265000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:44:22.385000+08:00","text":"一年\n就 2,000 億元以上！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:44:22.405000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:44:22.765000+08:00","text":"然後你告訴我 50 年 1,700 億好嚴重、好嚴重！","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:44:22.785000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:44:22.945000+08:00","text":"我不曉得這個標準是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:44:39.597000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:44:39.757000+08:00","text":"這完全不符合比例原則！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:44:39.777000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:45:05.879000+08:00","text":"再來，這種有關財務缺口的事情，剛剛講了，年改是多麼重要、多麼重要，不年改不足以做\n為改革，好，針對這一點，我也要引用柯總召的徒弟，就是前勞動部長何佩珊說的，關於勞保\n年金的部分，也有很多人講這個財務負擔很嚴重，也有財務缺口，該怎麼辦？","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:45:05.879000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:45:08.960000+08:00","text":"何佩珊前部長、\n柯建銘總召的愛徒，他怎麼說？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:45:08.960000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:45:09.460000+08:00","text":"他說：外界不應該有砍年金才是改革的迷思。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:45:09.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:45:09.740000+08:00","text":"看到沒有？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:45:26.790000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:45:39.119000+08:00","text":"不是\n只有砍、砍、砍才叫改革，這叫做「迷思」，而且他的名言是「政府 2020 年就開始撥補」、「\n撥補也是改革」。","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:45:40.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:45:41.341000+08:00","text":"聽到了嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:45:41.341000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:45:51.268000+08:00","text":"如果我們對於勞保年金、我們對勞工部分，政府可以認可撥補也\n是一種改革，為什麼 50 年 1,700 億不能撥補？","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:45:57.679000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:46:10.528000+08:00","text":"說這樣就是警消弟兄、海巡弟兄要拖垮我們政府\n的財政、拖垮所有公務人員，以後你們可能領不到退休金，你們的退休金如果有虧損的話，都\n是他們的錯。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:46:10.528000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:46:10.688000+08:00","text":"人民何其無辜？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:46:10.949000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:46:13.470000+08:00","text":"尤其這些弟兄，我不用再重述他們肩負的任務跟危險性。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:46:27.339000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:46:39.469000+08:00","text":"而且如\n果今天按照人事總處講，他心裡對於其他的公教人員過意不去，大家都這麼辛苦，奉獻國家…\n…","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T16:46:39.469000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:46:43.312000+08:00","text":"那就一起調嘛！是啊！","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:46:43.312000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:46:45.273000+08:00","text":"這不是途徑嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:46:45.273000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:46:55.862000+08:00","text":"為什麼很辛苦、很危險像他們都講，每次出去都是拎著腦袋出\n去的，他們的妻兒做何感想？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:46:56.659000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:47:06.866000+08:00","text":"如果你是警察的妻兒，如果你是消防人員，我們看過多少次消防\n人員在這些大火裡面，年紀輕輕就喪失他們的生命，如果我們能夠有一些憐憫之心，我們為什\n麼還要去製造這些對立？","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:47:17.003000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:47:35.607000+08:00","text":"在我們合理去調整他們退休所得替代率的時候，還要把他們當成一個\n去肩負你政府財務不健全，甚至你把他變成一個財務惡化，甚至破產的戴罪羔羊，合理嗎？","quality":0.985},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:47:35.607000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:47:35.687000+08:00","text":"當\n然不合理。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:47:35.807000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:48:19.728000+08:00","text":"所以在這邊，我們一直說我們願意做討論，我們不是沒有論述，但是我們尊重，我們尊重主\n席的裁量權，我們也希望在整個協商過程裡面，大家可以做理性的討論，但是如果今天只有唯\n我獨尊，一講話就要講到 30 分鐘起跳，然後逼迫其他人一定要聽，我不知道……你現在可能覺\n得我講得很久，剛才因為柯總召說「你也可以講」，其實我們不是不能講，但是我們會希望…\n協 40\n…","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:48:19.728000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:48:20.728000+08:00","text":"大家都洗耳恭聽，你慢慢講，講一個鐘頭不要緊啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:48:20.028000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:48:39.378000+08:00","text":"我的意思就是，對於每一次的朝野協商，我們尊重每一位出席者，我們也尊重每一個\n題目，比如我們現在的時間，因為我們現在才到第二案，對不對？","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:48:39.378000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:48:52.724000+08:00","text":"所以我剛才拜託主席，我們\n把我們的原則確定好，因為每一個案子都很重要，你今天講年改很重要，這些有關年金很重要\n，那麼壯世代不重要啊？","quality":0.845},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:48:54.946000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:48:55.426000+08:00","text":"壯世代不重要嗎？","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:48:55.426000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:48:56.147000+08:00","text":"能不能給他一點時間呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:48:56.147000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:48:57.147000+08:00","text":"我沒有反對啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:48:56.167000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:48:56.407000+08:00","text":"那我們現在拖下去，拖到什麼時候呢？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:48:56.447000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:48:56.467000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:48:56.467000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:48:57.467000+08:00","text":"給吳春城委員一個人講一個鐘頭。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:48:56.467000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:48:56.547000+08:00","text":"是不是？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:48:56.568000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:48:56.908000+08:00","text":"然後我們覆議案不重要嗎？","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:48:56.908000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:48:56.968000+08:00","text":"我剛才就講了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:48:56.988000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:49:32.711000+08:00","text":"然後說我們什麼在拖延預算，你\n把覆議案送過來，要讓我們處理，我們的時間已經極為有限，我們院會時間極為有限，院長去\n美國參加川普的就職典禮也非常重要，在這樣的狀況之下，已經極度壓縮我們的院會時間……","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:49:32.711000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:49:33.711000+08:00","text":"如期，如期出發。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:49:32.711000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:49:49.583000+08:00","text":"所以今天不是在野黨在擋預算，在野黨我們各個委員會都很努力加緊腳步在審預算，\n我們都已經準備了，我們的委員都還準備是不是這個禮拜就應該再來協商預算了，可是呢？","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:49:49.603000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:49:50.124000+08:00","text":"老\n實說，我覺得民進黨不急，民進黨急的是什麼？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:49:50.124000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:49:59.662000+08:00","text":"急的是覆議、急的是去修憲、急的是罷免，急\n的是要消滅其他政黨、急的是解散國會，不是嗎？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:49:59.662000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:50:00.742000+08:00","text":"這不是柯總召這兩天念茲在茲的嗎？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:50:00.742000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:50:01.303000+08:00","text":"所以我\n必須要來講……","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:50:01.383000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:50:01.423000+08:00","text":"民意所趨、民意所趨。","quality":0.375},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:50:01.423000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:50:02.423000+08:00","text":"民意所趨？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:50:01.463000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:50:01.923000+08:00","text":"總預算不是民意所趨？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:50:02.584000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:50:04.085000+08:00","text":"現在總預算不重要了，現在罷免比總預算還要重要\n，柯總召你的意思是這樣子？","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:50:04.105000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:50:04.845000+08:00","text":"所以現在罷免比預算的通過還要重要了，你的意思是這樣啊？","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:50:27.580000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:50:29.242000+08:00","text":"民\n意所趨是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:50:29.242000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:50:35.787000+08:00","text":"我們的認知，我們大家儘量的配合，老實講，我們今天是在野黨，比較急的應\n該是執政黨吧！","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:50:36.408000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:50:47.858000+08:00","text":"但是即使如此，我們不分朝野，民生法案大家加速通過，容或有我們彼此意見\n不同，沒有關係嘛！","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:50:48.358000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:50:53.424000+08:00","text":"大家經過協商、經過議事處理，這不叫民主程序，什麼叫民主程序？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:50:54.224000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:50:58.849000+08:00","text":"聽一\n個人、一個政黨的發言，聽他一人的意見，才叫民主程序嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:51:01.278000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:51:03.019000+08:00","text":"賴總統所謂的更大民主，我也聽\n不懂啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:51:03.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:51:07.543000+08:00","text":"我們立法委員每一個都是選出來的，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:51:07.543000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:51:14.369000+08:00","text":"我們的主席、我們的院長也是透過民主\n程序選出來的，這不叫民主程序，什麼叫做民主程序？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:51:14.970000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:51:19.794000+08:00","text":"不合民進黨就叫民主已死，民主不知道\n死了多少次了，對不對？","quality":0.64},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:51:19.794000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:51:20.794000+08:00","text":"有選舉就有罷免，憲法規定的！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:51:19.794000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:51:21.775000+08:00","text":"你看是不是？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T16:51:21.976000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:51:23.057000+08:00","text":"你看總預算不重要啊！","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:51:23.057000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:51:26.428000+08:00","text":"講完了？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T16:51:26.428000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T16:51:29.799000+08:00","text":"我等一下回答你。","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T16:51:29.799000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:51:30.019000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T16:51:31.521000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:51:37.654000+08:00","text":"我們大家都說軍人比警察的工作危險，怕大家領太多的政府預算。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T16:51:37.674000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:51:41.617000+08:00","text":"警察同\n仁聽到會很傷心，你們民進黨不能這麼說，因為像現行的狀態，每天救災、救難的是現任的警\n協 41\n察、海巡、消防，每天還要在高危險中工作、加班、輪班，我們為他們捍衛、爭取和軍人一樣\n的制度是很公平、很合理的修法。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T16:52:05.234000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:52:21.677000+08:00","text":"在 92 年之前，移民官也是警察，因為政府改革增加一個署，\n所以就把警察移到移民署，他們現在是以警察的身分退休嗎？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T16:52:21.677000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:52:23.777000+08:00","text":"還是他們要以移民官的身分退休\n呢？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T16:52:24.197000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:52:26.178000+08:00","text":"對他們的保障又是什麼？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T16:52:26.178000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:52:42.882000+08:00","text":"如果民進黨沒有搞臺獨、搞分裂、沒有挑撥離間，就不會有戰爭，軍人就不會有危險，但是\n警察、消防、海巡還有專勤人員每天都在保護人民的安全、都處在危險的工作中，請大家討論\n警察條例。","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T16:52:42.982000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:52:45.844000+08:00","text":"如果協商無法達成共識，請不要浪費大家的時間，我們好好去討論，好不好？謝謝\n。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T16:52:57.467000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:53:06.917000+08:00","text":"綜合以上述黨團幹部所有的發言，顯然無法達成共識，因此警察人員人事條例我們送院會處\n理。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T16:53:07.217000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T16:53:09.980000+08:00","text":"休息 10 分鐘，我們進行壯世代政策與產業發展促進法協商。","quality":0.522},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T16:53:09.980000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T17:05:31.376000+08:00","text":"休息（16 時 53 分）\n繼續開會（17 時 5 分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T17:05:31.376000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:05:32.557000+08:00","text":"謝謝，各位黨團幹部請坐。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T17:05:36.217000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:05:59.269000+08:00","text":"非常感謝今天的列席者，我們今天討論壯世代政策與產業發展促\n進法草案，非常感謝今天列席的官員，國家發展委員會的彭副主委，歡迎您；勞動部的陳次長\n，歡迎您；其他各位列席官員大家好，請坐。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T17:06:00.230000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:06:11.818000+08:00","text":"現在進入第三案的協商，我們先請壯世代政策與產業發展促進法草案的提案人吳春城委員發\n言。","quality":0.825},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2025-01-06T17:06:14.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:06:33.354000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，我是一個菜鳥立委，到了立法院將近一年的時間，看到了高手雲集、高談\n闊論、高潮迭起……","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T17:06:33.354000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T17:06:35.376000+08:00","text":"牛鬼蛇神。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2025-01-06T17:06:35.376000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:07:06.864000+08:00","text":"所以學習甚多，每天都像在暴風雨當中，院長應該也感受深刻，就是頂著風雨每天向\n前，就像民眾黨的黨歌一樣「穩穩地走」，就是一步一腳印，我一個部會、一個部會去溝通、\n去說明，提倡壯世代的理念。","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2025-01-06T17:07:07.344000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:07:20.990000+08:00","text":"一開始大家陌生，然後逐漸地今天走到這裡，由院長召集 3 個黨\n協商這個壯促法，我充滿著感恩的心。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2025-01-06T17:07:45.669000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:08:05.838000+08:00","text":"臺灣在今年進入超高齡社會，再過 10 年一半的人口將超過 50 歲，到時候消費市場萎縮，稅\n基減少，年輕人的扶養比飆高，各種的社會問題迫在眉睫。","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2025-01-06T17:08:06.499000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:08:21.151000+08:00","text":"在這個關鍵的時刻，非常的感謝，\n在三黨有識之士的合作之下，我們推動了壯促法，為高齡化的臺灣開出了一條路。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2025-01-06T17:08:22.432000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:08:49.427000+08:00","text":"壯促法在溝通的過程當中，很感謝三黨的支持，針對時代的問題提出了不一樣的解方，而且\n立法程序完整，過程當中，還獲得了行政機關積極地響應，以具體的行政事件來充實壯促法的\n內容，這裡也對行政單位表達謝意。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2025-01-06T17:08:50.768000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:08:52.970000+08:00","text":"總結壯促法有五大特色。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2025-01-06T17:08:53.790000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:09:03.217000+08:00","text":"第一個是跨社會，壯促法是協助臺灣從高齡社會無痛邁向超高齡社\n會的一個法案。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2025-01-06T17:09:04.237000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:09:44.272000+08:00","text":"過去 50 年臺灣的人口結構是很漂亮的正三角形，但是未來 50 年臺灣的人口結\n構會變成倒三角形，我們過去習慣用正三角形的思維來制定法令、制定政策、準備一切，但是\n現在國發會的資料裡面顯示，不可逆轉地我們要走向倒三角形的社會，而現在政府的產業結構\n協 42\n、法令、社會思想還停留在 50 年前，這是我跟各部會溝通的心得。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2025-01-06T17:09:52.398000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:10:10.434000+08:00","text":"現在壯世代（55 歲以上）已\n經有 800 萬人，這 800 萬人無法有效地發揮他的效能，反而淪為社會的負擔，我們有必要透過\n立法行政的合作，扭轉這樣的趨勢。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2025-01-06T17:10:10.814000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:10:12.636000+08:00","text":"第二個特色是跨黨派。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2025-01-06T17:10:14.897000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:10:36.486000+08:00","text":"壯促法在立法的過程當中，我也非常感謝各黨派的支持，我們在去年 4\n月成立了壯促會，就有 63 位跨黨派立委的加入，包括民進黨（執政黨）有 20 位委員也加入壯\n促會，莊瑞雄委員也是我們的副會長……","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-06T17:10:36.486000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T17:10:37.706000+08:00","text":"我也有。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2025-01-06T17:10:37.706000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:11:18.091000+08:00","text":"你也有，對，鍾佳濱委員也有，還有思瑤也是，王正旭委員還是我這個法案的共同提\n案人，還有易餘、坤城兩位都是這個法案的連署人，所以我非常感謝，當然國民黨的三長都是\n這個法案的連署人，還有包括孟楷也是壯促會的副會長，所以我非常的感謝各黨派的支持，這\n一次的法案已有 40 位跨黨派的立委連署，所以共識度相當的高。","quality":0.887},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2025-01-06T17:11:18.891000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:11:20.592000+08:00","text":"第三個特色是跨部會。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2025-01-06T17:11:21.873000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:12:20.104000+08:00","text":"我也非常感謝卓院長，今年 5 月在我的一場質詢當中，他聽了以後就\n非常感動，允諾在行政院成立壯世代跨部會小組，由陳時中政委來擔任召集人，一開始我是要\n求 6 個部會，結果陳時中政委把它擴張到 14 個部會加入，所以已經有 14 個部會在將近半年多\n的時間來推動，特別是勞動部，這一整年的時間高舉了壯世代重返職場的政策，3 年內編列了\n98 億鼓勵，而且這應該是這一年來勞動部最亮眼的政策，就是壯世代重返職場，來填補我們現\n在勞動力的不足。","quality":0.934},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2025-01-06T17:12:23.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:12:50.177000+08:00","text":"在立法的過程當中，除了所有的過程都非常地慎重、完整之外，我們也舉辦\n了兩次公聽會，第一次的公聽會有 10 個部會出席，其中有 8 個次長全程出席，4 個小時非常地\n投入，而且我們有很高度的共識，到第二次公聽會的時候，有 12 個部會出席，所以立法程序相\n當的完整。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2025-01-06T17:12:50.937000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:13:34.647000+08:00","text":"第四個特色是跨領域，壯促法是因應臺灣進入高齡社會以來，從社福性的照護性政策跨向一\n個發展性政策的代表，就是我們未來龐大的高齡人口，到 2070 年，65 歲以上人口將會占臺灣人\n口的 46%，將近一半的人超過 65 歲，我們不可能一直用照護性、用福利性的政策來因應這樣一\n個社會，所以如何繼續的發揮這一群高齡者、倒三角形？","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2025-01-06T17:13:35.327000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:13:42.110000+08:00","text":"我一直在倡議，我們面對的高齡社會\n是一個悲慘世界，還是一個美好世界呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2025-01-06T17:13:43.371000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:13:57.840000+08:00","text":"我們現在幾乎都用悲慘世界的方式在處理，那這絕對\n是一場災難，一定要把它打造成一個美好的新世界，這就是壯世代法案的一個重要的精神。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2025-01-06T17:14:00.221000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:14:26.022000+08:00","text":"這\n樣子改不是要否定社福思維，而是要變成雙軌制，一邊推動社福照護，一邊推動發展性，讓他\n過著美好的第三人生，我們現在臥床長達 8 年，我們要努力讓它縮短到 2 週，這樣才能夠降低\n我們社福的壓力，讓社福政策能夠永續性的發展。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2025-01-06T17:14:27.583000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:15:06.089000+08:00","text":"第五個特色叫跨世代，過去我們很多的政策都是世代衝突，這一個世代多拿一點，就是另外\n一個世代被剝削，造成我們的世代很多的對立，但壯促法是一個讓世代的資源可以循環，也能\n發展長壽經濟，這也是符合現在經濟部的政策──長壽經濟，壯世代掌握臺灣三分之二的財富\n，但是我們竟然沒有這些壯世代產業，除了養生、養病、養老之外，一無所有。","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2025-01-06T17:15:07.210000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:15:51.668000+08:00","text":"現在已經有龐\n大的 800 萬人在這塊領域當中，只有政府出的一個長照政策之外，其他的一無所有，我們的各\n部會幾乎把所有的責任推給了衛福部，其他部會都覺得老人跟我沒有關係，教育部在 60 歲以上\n協 43\n的預算不到 1%，大概只有 0.2%，文化部也是一樣，數位部也一樣，各個部會都覺得老人跟我無\n關，但是沒有想到這些人即將占人口的一半，所以這個是非常的謬誤，是停留在一個農業社會\n、1970 年的社會來制定一個未來的政策，所以這個不得不翻轉。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2025-01-06T17:15:51.668000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:16:26.194000+08:00","text":"因為這樣子不是在幫助年輕人，當這些人傾倒的時候，我們現在的扶養比是 3.6 人扶養 1 個人\n，到 2040 年變 2 個人要扶養 1 個人，2057 年是 1 個人要扶養 1 個人，如果這些人倒下來了，年\n輕人都沒有未來了，所以我們要讓這些人壯下來，讓他投入生產，所以不會製造世代對立，而\n是世代的攜手合作，降低我們下一代扶養比的負擔，同時為下一代來創造新的市場機會。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2025-01-06T17:16:26.194000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:16:32.557000+08:00","text":"所以\n今天非常的懇求各位，我們一起攜手努力，為臺灣寫下新的一頁，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T17:16:33.677000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:16:37.261000+08:00","text":"非常感謝吳春城委員的發言，非常感謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T17:16:37.261000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:17:03.022000+08:00","text":"各位黨團幹部，我們今年 1 月 3 號黨團協商共識之\n中，針對本案民進黨黨團主張先討論民進黨黨團所提的 4 項提議，如果我們獲至共識的話，我\n們定於元月 7 號，就是明天（星期二）院會就進行處理，民進黨所提的 4 個提案請各位黨團幹\n部參考一下：一、第二條定義為年齡 55 歲以上，有工作能力及工作意願。","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T17:17:03.802000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:17:08.084000+08:00","text":"二、不設專責辦公室\n，專責機構改國發會。","quality":0.312},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T17:17:10.104000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:17:11.145000+08:00","text":"三、不設基金。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T17:17:12.245000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:17:16.387000+08:00","text":"四、不在兩年之內修相關的法規。","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T17:17:17.187000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:17:29.228000+08:00","text":"現在我們進行發言，請吳思瑤幹事長發言，國民黨黨團請準備。","quality":0.36},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-06T17:17:29.228000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T17:17:30.228000+08:00","text":"我要發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T17:17:30.228000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T17:17:31.228000+08:00","text":"請吳思瑤幹事長發言，國民黨黨團請準備。","quality":0.294},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T17:17:29.990000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:17:34.201000+08:00","text":"那我也替我們很多委員爭取，因為這是一個新的法。謝謝。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T17:17:36.313000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:17:44.315000+08:00","text":"首先，我想吳春城委員、民眾黨這麼努力在推壯世代政策與產業發展促進法，\n我們之後就簡稱壯促法。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T17:17:44.536000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:17:45.516000+08:00","text":"當然我認為這個跟我們跨黨合作都是一個很好的開始。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T17:17:45.536000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:18:13.551000+08:00","text":"事實上行政部\n門早在 2022 年的高齡社會白皮書的推動辦理情形裡頭，跨 15 個部會，然後融合了 345 項政策\n工作，從 112 年到 115 年已經投入 1,200 億，這跟現行的政策都是高度的在進行當中。","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T17:18:14.692000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:19:08.860000+08:00","text":"如果以最\n新年度（113 年度），剛過去的這一年，政府對於這種高齡社會的相關投入也高達 285 億左右，\n所以這跟既定的政策方向，政府在政策上也高度的照顧所謂我們要新創它是一個「壯世代」的\n這個稱號，但是今天我們要以一個全新的立法，當然有幾件事情可能是我們首先要去思維的，\n就是說讓它是一個完整、整合性的工作、整合性的政策，它能夠非常統合性的去推動，盡可能\n地在新的立法當中去避免疊床架屋、去避免事倍功半，也就是說，大家釐清可以做的事情，有\n一些當然是 guideline 式的一些原則、宣示性的，我們都很樂意配合來入法。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T17:19:09.460000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:19:26.886000+08:00","text":"所以民進黨團這段\n時間跟行政部門也在委員會討論的階段，當然包括進入朝野協商的階段，我們也多次跟吳春城\n委員來做溝通，我想再次說，我們都跨黨合作，民進黨團一直在進行，只要是福國利民的政策\n。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T17:19:27.806000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:19:43.053000+08:00","text":"在上週五我們的黨團共識裡頭，大家可以看到幾個原則，剛剛院長也大概宣示了，所以我具\n體回應版本的部分，大家可以參考一下，這都是經過很多時間的討論。","quality":0.985},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T17:19:43.053000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:19:56.118000+08:00","text":"第一個，在第二條關於\n壯世代定義的部分，我們看到春城委員今天提出來的修正版本是，「壯世代：指五十五歲以上\n有工作意願之國民。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T17:19:57.099000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:20:15.867000+08:00","text":"」這個部分的定義等一下文字還可以再斟酌一下，因為就我們上週五的共\n協 44\n識是，五十五歲以上有工作能力及工作意願之國民，或者是用卓院長所說的，「五十五歲以上\n、健康、有工作能力，且為生產者及消費者。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T17:20:17.287000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:20:20.348000+08:00","text":"」定義的部分，大家最後再對一下，這是第二條\n的部分。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T17:20:21.189000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:20:40.936000+08:00","text":"然後在第三條，也謝謝獲致共識，就是不另設專責機關，所以在第三條的部分，本法之主管\n機關為國家發展委員會，然後主管機關要整合各目的事業主管機關涉及壯世代的權責等等，所\n以第三條第一項的文字上有做這樣的處理。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T17:20:41.536000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:20:53.282000+08:00","text":"然後第三條第二項跟第三項，春城委員可以參考一\n下，其實是可以不用的，第二項跟第三項是可以不要的啦！","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T17:20:54.803000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:20:56.685000+08:00","text":"再來就是不另設基金……","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2025-01-06T17:20:57.265000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:20:59.647000+08:00","text":"抱歉，院長，思瑤委員，你們有版本是不是？","quality":0.688},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T17:21:01.089000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:21:01.890000+08:00","text":"有，我先一併講一下。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2025-01-06T17:21:02.050000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:21:04.772000+08:00","text":"你們有版本，你要不要去把版本印出來給大家看……","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T17:21:04.912000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:21:10.357000+08:00","text":"現在發下來的是民眾黨的，我是依據民眾黨的版本來做說明，因為剛剛春城委員有發\n。","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2025-01-06T17:21:10.357000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:21:17.562000+08:00","text":"不是，因為我覺得這樣子還是很難討論，如果你們民進黨真的已經有版本的話，那就\n拿出來，大家直接看條文嘛！","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T17:21:18.583000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:21:19.564000+08:00","text":"我先講完好嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T17:21:19.564000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:21:19.924000+08:00","text":"因為我是依據……","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T17:21:19.924000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T17:21:20.924000+08:00","text":"現在就在講了……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2025-01-06T17:21:20.924000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T17:21:21.924000+08:00","text":"你用講的，我們沒有辦法……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T17:21:19.924000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:21:21.085000+08:00","text":"我是依據民眾黨的再修正動議去修正的，好不好？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T17:21:21.085000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T17:21:22.085000+08:00","text":"講完我們再喬版本嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T17:21:21.345000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:21:23.126000+08:00","text":"我先把它論述完，沒關係，等一下，可以不用急。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2025-01-06T17:21:23.126000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T17:21:24.126000+08:00","text":"你們有版本的話就拿出來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T17:21:23.146000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:21:24.087000+08:00","text":"等一下，可以不用急、可以不用急。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2025-01-06T17:21:24.087000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T17:21:27.376000+08:00","text":"為什麼你們都已經有版本了，還不拿出來？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T17:21:27.376000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T17:21:30.665000+08:00","text":"孟楷，你讓他說明完，我們再看嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2025-01-06T17:21:30.665000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T17:21:33.954000+08:00","text":"不是，我現在在問的是，你們有版本……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T17:21:33.954000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:21:35.675000+08:00","text":"不用急，因為我也是剛剛才拿到春城委員的再修正動議。","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2025-01-06T17:21:35.675000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T17:21:36.675000+08:00","text":"你們有版本就拿出來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T17:21:36.675000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T17:21:37.675000+08:00","text":"沒關係，現在大家不急。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T17:21:37.675000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T17:21:38.675000+08:00","text":"民進黨黨團幹部，麻煩一下把影印本交給其他黨團。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T17:21:35.675000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:21:36.476000+08:00","text":"先讓我發言完好嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T17:21:36.476000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T17:21:46.623000+08:00","text":"院長，讓我發言完好嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T17:21:46.623000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T17:21:56.770000+08:00","text":"我可以繼續，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2025-01-06T17:21:56.770000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:21:58.471000+08:00","text":"再修正動議是民進黨的版本，是不是？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T17:21:58.651000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:22:07.678000+08:00","text":"所以在第三條的部分，後面的第二項跟第三項是不是要留著是可以討論的，這個交給\n大家來討論。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T17:22:07.678000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:22:40.458000+08:00","text":"再來，我們要回到憲法、財政紀律法以及預算法的規定，我們現在都不要用立委的修法來增\n協 45\n加政府之支出，所以第十七條的部分不新設基金，就是現行第十七條，春城委員的版本把它的\n第三項拿掉，所以看到我們的版本，現在手上這個第三項就沒有了，我想春城委員也同意，所\n以在不新設基金的部分是拿掉第十七條的第三項。","quality":0.888},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T17:22:40.458000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:22:59.730000+08:00","text":"然後最後一個，我們也透過充分的溝通，就是春城委員的第二十條，原本希望本法施行後二\n年內，各級政府要依本法再去修訂其他的法規，但是這個跟行政部門也討論過，就不再進行這\n樣的作法，所以第二十條就是刪除。","quality":0.899},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T17:23:00.491000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:23:20.823000+08:00","text":"我再具體說明一次，也跟孟楷委員再說明一次，現在可以看一下這個修正動議的第一欄，第\n二條第一項第一款就壯世代的定義，等一下大家再斟酌一下，就是用字的部分。","quality":0.899},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T17:23:21.643000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:23:32.832000+08:00","text":"第三條第一項\n就是以國發會作為主責機關，這個 OK；第二項、第三項要不要放可以斟酌，因為基本上有點贅\n語。","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T17:23:34.494000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:23:36.596000+08:00","text":"第十七條 OK，已經拿掉第三項新設基金。","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T17:23:37.897000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:23:39.439000+08:00","text":"第二十條已經全文刪除。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T17:23:40.339000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:24:03.135000+08:00","text":"我具體說明這四個爭點\n，至於定義的部分是要用我們週五那天的協商結論，就是年滿五十五歲以上有工作能力及工作\n意願之國民，或者是卓院長提的五十五歲以上、健康、有工作能力，且為生產者及消費者之國\n民，這個大家一起來發揮智慧，把文字再磋商一下。","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T17:24:03.715000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:24:11.999000+08:00","text":"我應當沒有遺漏我們之前溝通的很多部分\n，我想我們都很善意，很希望促成這件事情，所以春城委員，我的說法應當都是……","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2025-01-06T17:24:12.099000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:24:15.460000+08:00","text":"很清楚，我可以回應一下嘛！","quality":0.364},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2025-01-06T17:24:15.460000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T17:24:16.460000+08:00","text":"思瑤委員……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T17:24:16.140000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:24:17.701000+08:00","text":"現在請國民黨團發言。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T17:24:18.661000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:24:21.302000+08:00","text":"如果發言完畢，大家都能達成共識，我們就簽，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T17:24:21.623000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:24:21.643000+08:00","text":"請國民黨團\n。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2025-01-06T17:24:24.720000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:24:27.682000+08:00","text":"感謝主席以及今天協商的代表。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2025-01-06T17:24:28.923000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:24:33.448000+08:00","text":"為什麼我剛剛會在吳思瑤委員發言的時候，特別再請\n教？","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2025-01-06T17:24:33.808000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:24:51.100000+08:00","text":"因為思瑤委員在講的時候，我們手上只有拿到一個是修正動議，另一個是再修正動議，但\n是從過去一直到現在，這一次壯世代的部分只有主提案，本席也是主提案人之一。","quality":0.899},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2025-01-06T17:24:52.361000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:24:57.524000+08:00","text":"今天不管是\n各部會，其實行政部門也沒有行政部門的版本。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2025-01-06T17:24:58.945000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:25:03.848000+08:00","text":"我們今天在立一個專法，我不知道行政部門態\n度是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2025-01-06T17:25:04.928000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:25:10.792000+08:00","text":"我現在放眼望去，好像也沒有部會首長來，我不知道今天行政部門態度是什麼。","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2025-01-06T17:25:11.372000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:25:33.365000+08:00","text":"過\n去有好幾個專法，其實也是這樣子，如同上禮拜大家在討論公益揭弊者保護法，從委員會開始\n討論的時候就只有國民黨團的版本、國民黨個別委員版本、民眾黨個別委員版本，然後行政部\n門沒有版本，民進黨的版本直到最後在上上禮拜的院會才擺出來。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2025-01-06T17:25:34.545000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:25:45.454000+08:00","text":"如果你真的有版本的話，其\n實大家願意就條文論條文、拿出來討論，我覺得這是好事，這才有實質的意義，我覺得這也才\n是朝野協商的目的跟宗旨。","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2025-01-06T17:25:46.255000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:25:56.543000+08:00","text":"今天樂見再修正動議是民進黨團的版本，今天拿出來，我覺得幾個\n有爭點的部分有聚焦了，這是好事。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2025-01-06T17:25:57.263000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:26:01.287000+08:00","text":"我不知道民進黨團的版本出來前，行政部門有沒有看過？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2025-01-06T17:26:03.249000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:26:05.651000+08:00","text":"行政部門等一下可能要表達意見。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T17:26:05.651000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:26:06.692000+08:00","text":"等一下請行政部門國發會表達，請準備。","quality":0.688},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2025-01-06T17:26:06.692000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:26:22.825000+08:00","text":"行政部門等一下可能要表達意見，因為行政部門、現在主管機關是國發會，上個禮拜\n五最後協商，就是三黨黨團的協商共識，從原本希望是行政院下面設專責辦公室，到變成是國\n發會。","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2025-01-06T17:26:23.626000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:26:32.513000+08:00","text":"國發會在這短短幾天裡面，執政黨黨團有沒有跟你們溝通，或執政黨黨團提出來的版本\n，你們有沒有了解，又或者行政部門有沒有相對應的版本？","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2025-01-06T17:26:35.418000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:26:36.038000+08:00","text":"這是第一個部分。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2025-01-06T17:26:36.679000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:26:56.078000+08:00","text":"第二個部分，如果壯世代以年齡區分的話，現在看到民進黨團的版本是指四十五歲到六十五\n協 46\n歲，我覺得定義有一點點太過於狹隘，就是四十五歲以上，在場應該都是壯世代，我再四年也\n是壯世代了。","quality":0.728},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2025-01-06T17:27:00.980000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:27:12.467000+08:00","text":"當然四十五歲可以稱為壯世代不是壞事，也是很值得驕傲的事；可是到六十五歲\n又不是壯世代了，六十五歲以上要叫什麼？","quality":0.72},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2025-01-06T17:27:12.467000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:27:16.009000+08:00","text":"初老壯世代，還是什麼？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2025-01-06T17:27:18.911000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:27:22.213000+08:00","text":"如果只有四十五歲到六十\n五歲就有一點點太過狹隘，這才二十年。","quality":0.593},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2025-01-06T17:27:22.433000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:27:25.635000+08:00","text":"其實我們一直講壯世代的用意是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2025-01-06T17:27:25.635000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:27:37.580000+08:00","text":"就在於現在高\n齡化社會確實是不可逆的趨勢，我們怎麼樣來讓這不可逆的趨勢化阻力為助力。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2025-01-06T17:27:38.461000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:27:54.126000+08:00","text":"我們希望是六\n十五歲以上，將原本退休的、沒有辦法有生產力的這些勞動力，可以轉變成有生產力的、積極\n投入的勞動力，所以我們才會有這個壯世代相關產業的條例。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2025-01-06T17:27:54.966000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:28:26.852000+08:00","text":"我們才會希望一開始的講法會是\n以五十五歲以上，只要是有工作意願的國民都可以納入當作是壯世代，七十五歲身體健康、硬\n朗、想要工作也都可以稱為壯世代，我們的柯總召七十多歲了，還是一條活龍啊，還是覺得說\n現在是他精力最旺盛的時候，要貢獻國家，所以他也是壯世代的一個代表，對不對？","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2025-01-06T17:28:26.852000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:28:33.857000+08:00","text":"所以我覺\n得這個部分的範圍可以再放寬一點、範圍可以再放寬一點！","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2025-01-06T17:28:34.517000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:28:51.166000+08:00","text":"主管機關是國發會，所以國發會一\n定要講清楚，你現在看的不管是我們原本的版本，還是吳春城委員這邊、民眾黨所提的修正動\n議，或是民進黨今天所拿出來的再修正動議，你們是不是都可以接受？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2025-01-06T17:28:51.686000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:28:52.967000+08:00","text":"還是有哪幾條你們不能\n接受？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2025-01-06T17:28:53.587000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:29:08.733000+08:00","text":"我覺得你們先把你們不能接受的……因為我相信你們不能接受的應該是比較少，我們針\n對不能接受的部分聚焦來討論，可能這樣會比較凝聚共識，也許就可以化解很多的爭議，以上\n，謝謝。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T17:29:08.733000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:29:09.353000+08:00","text":"非常好、非常好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T17:29:11.615000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:29:13.736000+08:00","text":"請國發會的彭副主委，請發言。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-06T17:29:14.117000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:29:16.939000+08:00","text":"可以請求發言嗎？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-06T17:29:16.939000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:29:17.580000+08:00","text":"我什麼時候可以發言？好。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T17:29:19.281000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:29:27.929000+08:00","text":"還有一個，因為我是尊重你，你看你旁邊的坤城兄又舉手，我很為難，因為它是這樣循環的\n，您知道我的意思嗎？","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T17:29:27.929000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:29:31.332000+08:00","text":"我知道你很急著發言，我們彭副主委發言完，你就發言好嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T17:29:31.332000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:29:32.353000+08:00","text":"好，請彭\n副主委。","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭副主任委員立沛","start":"2025-01-06T17:29:35.253000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:29:36.634000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長，以及各位委員。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T17:29:36.754000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:29:41.877000+08:00","text":"洪孟楷委員善意提醒，不接受的部分或者你們認為衝擊比較大的，先提出來好嗎？","quality":0.697},{"speaker":"彭副主任委員立沛","start":"2025-01-06T17:29:41.877000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:29:54.186000+08:00","text":"是，我是不是先針對第一個，就是國發會確實已經理解，把專責機構改為國家\n發展委員會，國發會確實已經有所理解。","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"彭副主任委員立沛","start":"2025-01-06T17:29:55.507000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:30:10.162000+08:00","text":"第二點是在第三條的部分，後面第一項、第二項，在\n第三項前兩項的後面是不是可以不需要特別講出來、講得那麼清楚？","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"彭副主任委員立沛","start":"2025-01-06T17:30:11.243000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:30:19.712000+08:00","text":"再來，第二十一條有關公\n布實施日期，因為國發會這邊能夠準備的時間比較短……","quality":0.656},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2025-01-06T17:30:19.712000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:30:29.678000+08:00","text":"抱歉，主席抱歉，一樣，您剛剛講的是以哪一個版本的第三條第一項、第二項？","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"彭副主任委員立沛","start":"2025-01-06T17:30:29.678000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:30:30.798000+08:00","text":"再修正動議。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2025-01-06T17:30:30.939000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:30:33.840000+08:00","text":"好，再修正動議，對，你要講清楚，我們才有辦法看。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"彭副主任委員立沛","start":"2025-01-06T17:30:34.741000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:30:45.661000+08:00","text":"抱歉，再修正動議版本的第三條，也就是剛剛吳思瑤委員所提到的……\n協 47","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T17:30:46.582000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:30:51.265000+08:00","text":"你現在手上拿的是民進黨團的，吳思瑤上面有蓋一個章，即民進黨的再修正動議，請繼續。","quality":0.806},{"speaker":"彭副主任委員立沛","start":"2025-01-06T17:30:51.265000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:31:06.074000+08:00","text":"好，最後就是因為我們需要時間做一些準備，所以第二十條「本法自公布日施\n行」，是不是可以改成是「本法之施行日期，由行政院定之」？","quality":0.887},{"speaker":"彭副主任委員立沛","start":"2025-01-06T17:31:09.143000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:31:12.407000+08:00","text":"就是以上這些比較有差異的部\n分，跟各位委員報告。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T17:31:13.207000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:31:18.533000+08:00","text":"謝謝彭副主委寶貴的發言，接下來，鍾佳濱委員請發言，國民黨團請準備。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-06T17:31:19.874000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:31:40.674000+08:00","text":"謝謝，要稱您院長，不是稱主席，因為只有院長可以主持朝野協商，首先要表達，跟\n院長做一個告白、很卑微的一個請託，現在我變得很悲憤了，打從我第一次參加院長主持的朝\n野協商就差點被請出去，我也不是新科立委，當了第三屆，委員能不能出席朝野協商？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-06T17:31:40.834000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:31:47.040000+08:00","text":"當然可\n以，但是後來院長好不容易修改了規則，讓我們擔任召委的可以來發言。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-06T17:31:48.576000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:32:08.129000+08:00","text":"上會期的立法院職權\n行使法討論到國情報告專章的時候，我也跟院長請求，在我們本屆的委員當中，當過第三屆或\n者曾經當過國大代表，聽過總統國情報告的，應該沒有幾個，我想要來貢獻一些心得，還是被\n院長拒絕了。","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-06T17:32:09.009000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:32:13.833000+08:00","text":"今天好不容易在這裡已經坐了快 3 個小時了，好不容易可以來這邊做個發言。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-06T17:32:14.113000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:32:30.065000+08:00","text":"其實過去常常看到院長很親切，堆滿笑容，關心我們的服裝，關心我們有沒有受傷，但是我\n希望院長能夠更關心委員專業問政，在他行使職權的時候給予必要的尊重以及權利。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-06T17:32:31.025000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:32:51.131000+08:00","text":"我想，過\n去在討論議題，其實朝野協商經常不能對焦，有時候有人會說：「裝睡的人叫不醒」，但是我\n很不喜歡這樣講，因為如果我們在跟對方溝通，對方聽不懂，我是先檢討自己，是不是我講得\n不夠明白？","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-06T17:32:52.132000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:33:01.605000+08:00","text":"舉例來講，身為民意代表，我最常接觸的就是農民，但是你問農民對政府的政策了\n解嗎？","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-06T17:33:01.605000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:33:18.433000+08:00","text":"舉一個很簡單的例子，老農津貼，我想在場的幾位委員，可能麥玉珍委員在臺灣停留時\n間較短，其他的委員應該知道老農津貼多少錢，跟農民講現在調到八千多塊，他很開心，但過\n沒幾年，他跟你說他老農津貼被取消了。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-06T17:33:19.393000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:33:19.493000+08:00","text":"他說我有繳農保啊！","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-06T17:33:22.114000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:33:26.525000+08:00","text":"但是我跟他講：不好意思，阿伯\n，你繳的農保跟你的老農津貼是兩回事！","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-06T17:33:26.685000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:33:27.527000+08:00","text":"問題是我們能夠責怪他嗎？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-06T17:33:31.508000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:33:42.293000+08:00","text":"老年農民福利津貼暫行條\n例以及農民健康保險條例規範的是不一樣的事情，我問阿伯：你說你有繳農保，請問你繳多少\n？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-06T17:33:42.433000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:33:45.015000+08:00","text":"他說三千多塊。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-06T17:33:45.775000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:33:58.061000+08:00","text":"其實 3,024 是半年的，一個月才繳 504 塊，其中大部分是全民健康保險的保費\n，真正農民健康保險的保費只有 78 塊錢，但他一個月要領超過 8,000 塊的老農津貼。","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-06T17:34:00.142000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:34:07.108000+08:00","text":"說清楚了\n他就理解，他繳的農保保費跟他領的老農津貼是兩碼子事。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-06T17:34:08.008000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:34:24.621000+08:00","text":"同樣的情況在今天的協商又發生了，一直有人討論到警消人員很辛苦，退職的警消人員應該\n給予照顧，包括我們現在談的壯世代，我們要談年輕世代跟青壯世代的世代公平，這個要怎麼\n講呢？","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-06T17:34:27.396000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:34:34.341000+08:00","text":"剛剛官員講的恩給制、提撥制，不好意思，可能連退休的警消都聽不太懂。","quality":0.655},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-06T17:34:34.981000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:34:38.603000+08:00","text":"我在選區經\n常遇到勇友會，什麼叫勇友會，你知道嗎？","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-06T17:34:38.603000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:34:51.551000+08:00","text":"不是游泳的「泳」，是退休消防人員組成的勇友會\n，我在聚會的時候也跟他們提過這個事情，他們說很好，他們退休了，但年輕的時候多麼打拚\n，現在應該跟著一起調。","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-06T17:34:52.885000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:35:14.861000+08:00","text":"我要說明的是，恩給制人家可能聽不懂，我打個比方，今天有個營造\n建材公司的大老闆，手下員工有在工地的、有在工廠做建材的、有在辦公室做財務的，也有騎\n著機車、開著汽車到處拉攬客戶跑業務的，今天如果要辦年終尾牙，他說：很好啊！","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-06T17:35:15.742000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:35:40.748000+08:00","text":"在工地的\n最辛苦，請他們吃一桌 1 萬元，其次工廠裡面 24 小時輪班的，請他吃 8,000 塊一桌，在辦公室\n吹冷氣打報表的，6,000 塊一桌，至於跑業務的，雖然曬太陽，但是有抽成，這就跟院長說的一\n協 48\n樣，吃麥當勞漢堡、吃披薩就可以了……","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T17:35:40.748000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T17:35:41.748000+08:00","text":"說得好！","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-06T17:35:41.528000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:35:43.188000+08:00","text":"你說這樣公不公平？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-06T17:35:44.069000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:35:45.689000+08:00","text":"沒有人可以講話，為什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-06T17:35:45.689000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:35:51.931000+08:00","text":"錢是老闆出的，老闆依照不同部門的\n人對公司的貢獻，而分別給多少的獎勵，那叫做恩給制。","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-06T17:35:53.789000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:35:56.091000+08:00","text":"但是現在的提撥制是什麼？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-06T17:35:56.091000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:36:25.057000+08:00","text":"軍人一個\n水庫、公教警消一個水庫，大家在職期間各有各要提撥的費率，大家都要繳，簡單講，你可以\n想成是剛剛講的那個題目，軍人在職期間提撥，退休之後……就像餐廳搭伙一樣，今天人家跟\n軍人搭伙吃的是軍糧，你跟公教警消搭伙吃的是公教警消的餐點，但是差別是什麼？","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-06T17:36:25.057000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:36:42.431000+08:00","text":"現職人員\n依照這個規定搭伙繳錢，但是退休之後才能去餐廳用餐，這時候突然警消跳出來說，在職期間\n交的錢跟公教警消一樣，但現在我要吃跟軍人一樣的餐廳，這公平嗎？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-06T17:36:42.431000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:36:45.573000+08:00","text":"當然不公平，不是不公\n平，根本是搞錯方向。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-06T17:36:46.414000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:37:05.664000+08:00","text":"提撥制是根據在職期間、根據大家同樣的規則提繳金額，然後在你退休\n的時候享用，所以警消再辛苦，他跟軍人適用的退撫就是不同的規則，拿兩者來對應，實在是\n風馬牛不相及。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-06T17:37:06.305000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:37:09.525000+08:00","text":"但是突然有人提到警消也跟軍人一樣……","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-06T17:37:11.446000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:37:13.506000+08:00","text":"院長，我說很悲憤，你要我繼續悲憤嗎？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-06T17:37:13.987000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:37:14.767000+08:00","text":"你能不能讓我講完？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-06T17:37:16.647000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:37:19.048000+08:00","text":"我現在講的內容，你怎\n麼知道跟壯世代沒有關係？","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-06T17:37:22.284000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:37:23.426000+08:00","text":"請尊重委員的發言權。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-06T17:37:24.547000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:37:38.380000+08:00","text":"我要說的是，我們在談到這些制度的時候，要講得清楚明白，讓當事人聽得懂，不然你講了\n半天，警消覺得他的付出很大，很辛勞，但是你看看他的薪水。","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-06T17:37:38.920000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:38:20.306000+08:00","text":"我們單單講這個情況，過去我\n在地方服務，很多人會來人事請託，我遇到過警消要調職的，遇到過獄所管理員想要換工作，\n不想在獄所當管理員，也遇到過那些比較重要的保護性社工，他們的家長很擔心自己的女兒去\n當保護性社工有生命危險、有安全的疑慮，這些都告訴我們其實公教警消的工作內容不一而足\n，不見得誰比較好，每個人都有要面對的困難，包括老人長照機構要照三班制輪，衛福部的長\n官在這裡，這些人也覺得很辛苦啊！","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-06T17:38:21.126000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:38:22.407000+08:00","text":"這些人很辛苦是什麼時候辛苦？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-06T17:38:23.227000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:38:41.546000+08:00","text":"是在職期間辛苦，所以在\n照顧機構的這些人夜間有夜點，這些保護性社工也會有一些加給，這些獄所管理員有他們工作\n上國家另外給他們安排的，所以我就問勇友會的退休警消，我問他說：阿伯，你已經七十幾歲\n了，你現在有什麼危險嗎？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-06T17:38:41.546000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:38:43.708000+08:00","text":"你跟我們樓下那個從公營銀行退休的副理，你們兩個人都七十幾歲\n，你們有什麼地方危險？","quality":0.703},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-06T17:38:54.242000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:39:14.070000+08:00","text":"過去他在銀行工作吹冷氣比較舒服，你拿著瞄子在火場打火你很辛苦\n，其實那個危勞都已經表達進去了，所以我們看到在警消的部分，自願退休年齡比人家早，他\n五十歲就自願退休，月退的年齡是五十五歲，也是比別人家早十年。","quality":0.753},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-06T17:39:14.710000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:39:17.632000+08:00","text":"那我們來看一下，為什麼一定要來跟軍人比？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-06T17:39:18.412000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:39:18.792000+08:00","text":"跟軍人怎麼比？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-06T17:39:19.052000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:39:34.047000+08:00","text":"我隨便講一個好了，上尉的薪\n資居然是 4 萬 2,405 元，可是對應同等級的警政四階，警專畢業做到警政四階，他可以領 9 萬\n3,180 元，為什麼有這個差別？","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-06T17:39:34.767000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:40:23.791000+08:00","text":"很簡單，因為上尉他停年十五年，他二十二歲出來任官，如果他\n是唸專科班的，就像我們院長可能也知道，從任官開始就開始起算了，算到你任官滿十五年、\n上尉滿十五年，你可能不到三十五歲，你的年資當然只能領到 4 萬 2,405 元，但是警察他就算是\n警政四階，他做到了五十五歲，他可以領月退，他的俸點是 525 點，他可以領到 9 萬 3,180 元，\n不是因為警察的待遇比軍人好，而是因為兩個人的服務年限不同，因為年資不同，造成最後退\n協 49\n休的時候，他領的薪資所得是不一樣的，一個是 9 萬 3,180 元，一個是 4 萬 2,405 元，誰比較高\n？","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-06T17:40:24.291000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:40:25.972000+08:00","text":"高超過一倍以上啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-06T17:40:26.573000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:40:28.374000+08:00","text":"但是軍人的福利待遇不好嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-06T17:40:28.514000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:40:36.220000+08:00","text":"主要是考量到他的年資、他從事服務的年\n齡，他退伍的時候當然會跟警消不太一樣。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-06T17:40:37.060000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:41:02.516000+08:00","text":"所以我們在這裡不斷提醒在 84 年恩給制改變為提撥\n制之後，在面對不同世代之間，我們要求取在職人員跟他退休之後所享受的這些權利要回歸到\n他的本職，軍人的退伍是一套制度，公教警消是一個制度，不能混為一談。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-06T17:41:02.516000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:41:19.765000+08:00","text":"至於在職期間的危\n勞，針對公教警消當中的警消，在職期間的危勞國家已經表達了，軍人的危勞國家也表達了，\n考量到軍人的服務年資比較短，所以他退休的時候，他的所得替代率是跟人家不一樣的。","quality":0.901},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-06T17:41:20.666000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:41:39.903000+08:00","text":"現在\n我們要把警消的所得替代率從本來的 65%提升到 80%，大家有機會去看一看國民黨所提出來的\n版本附表，這個 80%連三十五年的計算都沒有對攏啊！","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-06T17:41:40.564000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:42:57.512000+08:00","text":"我覺得我們修法要有一個完善的過程，今天說到壯世代，我看院長一直提醒我說要針對壯世\n代，沒有錯，壯世代的擴張讓全民都能夠體察到他們對國家、對社會是有用的，這個我們都支\n持，也認同這樣的精神，但是一個國家要能夠永續經營、永續發展，必須讓不同的世代都覺得\n有世代公平可言，所以我還是要拜託，今天我們在這裡朝野協商，我也不曉得是不是在雞同鴨\n講，但是我很樂意不管是什麼題目，我們能夠針對問題一個一個來解，不要說對方跟我們講的\n話沒有對焦，就說人家裝睡叫不醒，其實我不這樣想，我希望我們能夠跟全民解釋及說明，當\n國家進行重大政策改革的時候，用人民聽得懂的話，壯世代也好，或者是警察人員人事條例也\n好，今天好不容易院長願意讓我講，警察人員人事條例是由我們司法及法制委員會主審，跟內\n政委員會聯席，結果司法及法制委員會的召委在這裡請求要發言，從剛剛 3 點開始，到現在快 3\n個小時，我才有這個機會來表達，可能主席又要說這個案子剛剛已經協商完畢了。對！","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-06T17:42:57.512000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:43:03.937000+08:00","text":"每次院\n長主持的協商，只要有討論、有形式上討論就好，有沒有真實的對話，您在所不論。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-06T17:43:03.937000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:43:25.813000+08:00","text":"所以在這裡除了卑微、除了悲憤，還是要用一個悲憫的心情，請院長體恤我們全國人民，他\n們繳了稅，我們立了法，我們協商的時候，要講他們聽得懂的話，讓他們理解會有什麼後果、\n有什麼代價，而不是在這邊形式上過水，然後明天表決、強輾地過關就算了！開心？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-06T17:43:25.813000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T17:43:28.635000+08:00","text":"我很悲憤！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T17:43:28.635000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:43:31.858000+08:00","text":"我感覺到好像……算了，你還是發言了嘛，好不好？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T17:43:31.998000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:43:35.260000+08:00","text":"我還是很尊重、很尊重，我真的很希望\n尊重大家……","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-01-06T17:43:35.260000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T17:43:37.082000+08:00","text":"你笑臉……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T17:43:37.082000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:43:38.643000+08:00","text":"要不然我哭喪著臉嗎？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T17:43:38.643000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:43:40.124000+08:00","text":"我笑臉，不是大家開心嗎？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T17:43:42.825000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:43:48.647000+08:00","text":"三個黨團黨鞭，吳委員思瑤，現在協商結\n論已經達成共識了嘛……","quality":0.68},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T17:43:48.647000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T17:43:55.789000+08:00","text":"我們有一些文字可能要再做……要不然給我們一點時間……","quality":0.091},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T17:43:55.789000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:43:59.029000+08:00","text":"國民黨黨團可以發言 1 位，因為民進黨黨團發言 2 位，台灣民眾黨可以再發言 1 位。請。","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T17:43:59.029000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T17:44:02.540000+08:00","text":"讓我們休息一下……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2025-01-06T17:44:02.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:44:05.961000+08:00","text":"沒關係，我們邊發言，你邊去修嘛，好不好？OK。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2025-01-06T17:44:07.662000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:44:35.674000+08:00","text":"院長，壯世代這部法案，我們在 1 月 3 號剛才院長唸過的那個協商，其實大家都講得\n很清楚，就是針對不設基金、還有工作能力、還有工作意願這部分，大家定義一樣，還有就是\n第二條的年齡定義為五十五歲以上，都形成共識了，主責機關就改為國發會。","quality":0.899},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2025-01-06T17:44:35.674000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:44:54.066000+08:00","text":"所以今天我們看\n到吳春城委員的提案就針對這幾個那天達成的黨團共識提出再修正動議，我們今天又看到的其\n實是國發會的版本，剛才講說是民進黨的版本，其實就是國發會的意思。","quality":0.934},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2025-01-06T17:44:55.927000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:45:28.882000+08:00","text":"其實吳春城委員已經針對我們黨團形成共識的 4 個條文修訂得非常清楚了，譬如第二條，壯\n世代就是指五十五歲以上的國民，這很清楚了；就第三條，主管機關就改為國發會；就第十七\n條，就是基金也把它刪除；另外就是對於施行日期，就講說本法自公布日施行。","quality":0.876},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2025-01-06T17:45:30.043000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:45:43.307000+08:00","text":"這個都已經達\n成共識了，所以我們希望就聚焦，就沒有爭議的條文是不是就不用再討論、就沒有意見，就針\n對這幾個條文的文字我們來做修正。以上。","quality":0.883},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T17:45:45.127000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:45:46.708000+08:00","text":"謝謝林思銘書記長的發言。","quality":0.545},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T17:45:46.708000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:45:50.208000+08:00","text":"大致上已經達成差不多了，他們在最後做一點小微調。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T17:45:50.409000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:45:52.729000+08:00","text":"台灣民眾黨團發言嗎？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T17:45:52.729000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:45:54.470000+08:00","text":"不發言了，好，我們休息 5 分鐘，請調……","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T17:45:54.470000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T17:46:00.026000+08:00","text":"為什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T17:46:00.026000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T17:46:05.582000+08:00","text":"沒那麼快，我們很快，因為春城委員的文字都還有……","quality":0.05},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T17:46:05.582000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:46:16.833000+08:00","text":"我們現在進入第四案，第三案就等三個黨團的主要負責人協商之後，我們再來簽字，好不好\n？謝謝。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T17:46:16.833000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:46:18.434000+08:00","text":"我們現在進入第四案。","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T17:46:40.424000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:46:40.944000+08:00","text":"耳塞拿下來嘛。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T17:46:46.793000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:46:47.854000+08:00","text":"謝謝各位列席官員，請回，謝謝大家。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T17:46:51.986000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:47:00.371000+08:00","text":"我跟各位黨團幹部報告一下，我們現在進行覆議案跟財團法人公共電視推舉社會公正人士的\n協商──第四案跟第五案。","quality":0.58},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T17:47:01.231000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:47:28.350000+08:00","text":"跟大家報告一下，公共電視的案子我們循例辦理，公正人士原則上\n就是由國民黨 7 位、民進黨 7 位、台灣民眾黨 1 位推舉社會公正人士組成，在這裡我們有準備\n一個草稿，我先宣讀一下，請工作同仁把草稿發下去，如果各位同意的話，我們就準備來簽字\n。","quality":0.768},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T17:47:29.551000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:47:31.192000+08:00","text":"現在我來唸一遍給大家聽一下……","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T17:47:31.612000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:47:33.494000+08:00","text":"院長，這個沒問題，第四案怎麼樣？","quality":0.538},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T17:47:33.494000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T17:47:34.494000+08:00","text":"第四案呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T17:47:34.494000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T17:47:35.494000+08:00","text":"這個唸完、簽了之後就結束了，就回到第四案。好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T17:47:35.494000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T17:47:36.494000+08:00","text":"對，這是第五案，因為這個只是簽字、唸一下，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T17:47:35.049000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:48:14.164000+08:00","text":"我唸給大家聽：有關行政院函請推\n舉社會公正人士組成財團法人公共電視文化事業基金會董事、監察人審查委員會乙案，依政黨\n比例由國民黨黨團推舉 7 人，民進黨黨團推舉 7 人，台灣民眾黨黨團推舉 1 人組成，名單請於 1\n月 16 日（星期四）中午 12 點前送至議事處彙整，逾時視同放棄。","quality":0.782},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T17:48:14.164000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:48:16.466000+08:00","text":"請問各位黨團幹部，有沒有\n意見？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T17:48:16.466000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:48:16.886000+08:00","text":"沒有意見。","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T17:48:19.088000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:48:21.711000+08:00","text":"院長，你朝野協商應該最後一個簽。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T17:48:21.711000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:48:24.834000+08:00","text":"我最後一個簽，先請柯總召簽，謝謝。","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T17:48:24.834000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:48:27.196000+08:00","text":"沒有意見，我們現在回到覆議案。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T17:48:57.992000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:48:59.033000+08:00","text":"協 51\n各黨團，我們現在繼續進行。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T17:49:00.073000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:49:20.986000+08:00","text":"跟各位黨團幹部報告一下，我們處理覆議案的部分，依本院職\n權行使法相關規定，覆議案要列在院會報告事項，接著要交全院委員會審查，審查時得邀請行\n政院院長說明，審查完畢後，由院會進行記名投票表決。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T17:49:22.908000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:49:39.818000+08:00","text":"另外，覆議案在立法院的處理時間，\n憲法明文規定 15 天之內要處理完畢，所以針對覆議案的處理，我們要把握憲法規定的 15 天時\n間完成覆議案的處理，以下就請各黨團幹部表達對於覆議案的意見。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T17:49:39.818000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:49:41.398000+08:00","text":"請柯建銘總召先發言。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T17:49:41.739000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:50:10.044000+08:00","text":"第一個，有關覆議案，行政院對於立法院所修訂的法律認為有窒礙難行，所以要提出\n覆議，這是憲法規定，而且行政院院長一定要來，不是「得」邀請，是行政院長一定要來備詢\n，因為他認為窒礙難行，這是憲法上的規定，所以不是「得」邀請，行政院長一定要來備詢，\n這是憲法規定。","quality":0.817},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T17:50:11.804000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:50:13.624000+08:00","text":"他不來，我們跟誰講話，對不對？","quality":0.583},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T17:50:18.638000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:50:18.898000+08:00","text":"總不能質詢院長吧！","quality":0.375},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T17:50:21.160000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:50:22.261000+08:00","text":"這一點先講。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T17:50:22.261000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:51:21.392000+08:00","text":"第二個，有關去年的國會改革覆議案是 2 天，完畢以後表決，不管怎麼樣我們要控制，就是\n一定要在憲法法定時間裡面完成，大概是這樣，10 天內必須送來立法院審查，但是審查的時候\n可以延 5 天，加起來 15 天，反正就是照憲法原則來就好了，我覺得硬邦邦，請擬一下明天送程\n序委員會處理，我覺得這個不處理怎麼可以，處理最好，你贊成吧？","quality":0.767},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T17:51:25.633000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:51:27.994000+08:00","text":"等一下蔡易餘和李坤城還要發言，稍微等一下。","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T17:51:29.374000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:51:39.237000+08:00","text":"請國民黨黨團對覆議案表達意見。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T17:51:39.237000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:51:50.732000+08:00","text":"這可能要請院長先把大方向定下來，大方向就是到底哪一天要處理，我覺得這個事情\n要先確定。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T17:51:55.034000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:52:14.580000+08:00","text":"事實上，剛剛柯總召講的我們敬表知悉，但是歉難同意，因為憲法訴訟法的執行單\n位是司法院，要叫行政院院長來這裡做什麼樣的說明？","quality":0.873},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T17:52:21.130000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:52:27.835000+08:00","text":"當時會計法也沒有請行政院長來做報告\n，所以這是風馬牛不相及的事情。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T17:52:28.456000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:52:45.482000+08:00","text":"而且法律規定的非常清楚是「得」不是「應」，所以這應該\n是本院內部自行處理就好了，針對行政院提出的覆議案，我們自行來處理就好，但是重點還是\n時間要先確定了，好不好？","quality":0.928},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T17:52:50.766000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:53:03.897000+08:00","text":"我想因為柯總召法力高深，所以我們必須在時間上要容有餘力，能\n夠處理，好不好？謝謝。","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T17:53:03.897000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:53:04.658000+08:00","text":"謝謝傅總召的發言。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T17:53:07.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:53:09.162000+08:00","text":"我們接下來請李坤城委員發言。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-06T17:53:14.986000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:53:16.286000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-06T17:53:16.606000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:53:38.396000+08:00","text":"剛才有提到覆議，覆議案當然要請行政院院長來立法院做說明，因為這次\n憲訴法在修改之後，大概有百分之九十以上的人民聲請釋憲的權利受到阻礙，基於這一點，當\n然行政院有權利也有義務到立法院做說明，這是第一點。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-06T17:53:41.657000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:54:08.531000+08:00","text":"第二點，我記得我們在 12 月 20 號已\n經通過了，包含憲訴法、選罷法、財劃法，剛好院長在這邊，我也問一下院長，為什麼 12 月 20\n號通過三個法律案之後，我們立法院只送出憲訴法，關於選罷法跟財劃法不送出去，那請問一\n下，我們召委有這麼大的權力嗎？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-06T17:54:08.671000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:54:39.808000+08:00","text":"尤其我是在財政委員會，我也問過召委陳玉珍，我就說你當\n時將財劃法不送出去的主要原因、主要的理由，是因為有可能 114 年的總預算要重編，所以他就\n扣住不發，但現在不論是財政部長或主計長都已經說得很清楚了，114 年度的總預算不會再重編\n，所以陳玉珍召委扣住的理由已經不存在啦！","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-06T17:54:40.829000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:54:48.513000+08:00","text":"不論是選罷法或財劃法，為什麼現在我們立法院\n還扣住、不發？","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-06T17:54:48.874000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:54:52.416000+08:00","text":"請問一下，這是召委的意見，還是院長的意見？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-06T17:54:52.976000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:54:55.357000+08:00","text":"我覺得剛好在這個時候要把它\n說清楚啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-06T17:54:56.457000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:54:58.238000+08:00","text":"法律案通過了，你就要送出去啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-06T17:54:58.998000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:55:19.367000+08:00","text":"接下來，不論是行政院或是我們立法院要採取覆\n協 52\n議、釋憲，或是其他的救濟手段，那都是符合憲政的原則原理在做，我們立法院沒有這麼大的\n權力，不論是召委或是院長，都可以把立法院已經三讀通過的法案扣住、不送出去，我請院長\n也答復一下。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T17:55:19.367000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T17:55:20.367000+08:00","text":"好的，坤城委員，我馬上會答復。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T17:55:20.367000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T17:55:21.367000+08:00","text":"請王鴻薇委員發言，蔡易餘委員請準備。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T17:55:20.027000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:55:20.327000+08:00","text":"主席及各位委員。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T17:55:20.327000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:56:06.884000+08:00","text":"因為我想今天我們在討論如何處理這個覆議案，確實我們有時間上\n的急迫性，剛才也有特別講到，因為我們還有總預算，說實在的，總預算我們都還沒有開始在\n進行協商，更不要說我們要用有限的院會時間來處理總預算，我想總預算應該是全體國民更關\n切的，尤其之前，包含行政院都口口聲聲希望總預算能夠儘快地在立法院進行議事處理。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T17:56:07.604000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:56:24.751000+08:00","text":"另外\n，我們剛才也講到，也卡到院長要去美國參加川普的就職典禮，我們也希望最好對一些比較重\n大的法案都能夠儘速地把它完成。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T17:56:26.612000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:56:35.655000+08:00","text":"對於剛才在講的部分，到底覆議案要不要邀請行政院長來做\n報告？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T17:56:36.635000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:57:27.741000+08:00","text":"事實上在法律上其實是「得」，而不是「應」，也就是說，我們現在在這麼大的時間壓\n力下，如果我們可以不用請行政院長來報告，我們一樣能夠做出審查，當然這樣的程序完全合\n法也合憲，到時候可能請我們的柯總召、柯大法官，真的不用再講有沒有違憲之虞，如果我們\n沒有請行政院長來做說明，不但合法而且在過去的案例中，我想柯總召在立法院這麼多年，當\n年在會計法做覆議案的時候，柯總召也是總召喔！","quality":0.854},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T17:57:29.582000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:57:52.247000+08:00","text":"當時也是行政院長沒有報告，而當時的立法\n院也完成了覆議案的審查，對於我們立法院來講，本來就是這樣，剛才總召還在說我們可以創\n先例，但是我們有先例，我們也可以援例辦理，這個先做這樣的說明。","quality":0.566},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T17:57:53.028000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:58:15.202000+08:00","text":"另外就是在一些覆議案，比如說，上一次的國會改革覆議案，我們有請行政院長來做說明，\n因為這邊牽涉到一些行政部門的配合，所以當時請行政院長來說明確實是合理的。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T17:58:16.103000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:58:16.923000+08:00","text":"我們這一次\n是針對憲訴法，憲訴法的主管機關是誰？","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T17:58:22.928000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:58:48.291000+08:00","text":"憲訴法主管機關不是行政院，即便我退一萬步來說，\n即便認為有任何窒礙難行之處，這應該也是司法院的職權，如果一直在強調說我們立法院的手\n不能伸那麼長，我們不要去影響司法院，我們要確立五權分立。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T17:58:50.011000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:58:56.213000+08:00","text":"如果今天針對憲訴法，我們一\n再強調說不行，一定要讓行政院長來報告。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T17:58:57.194000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:59:01.475000+08:00","text":"請問一下，司法院難道是行政院所管轄的嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T17:59:01.475000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:59:05.356000+08:00","text":"司法\n院難道是行政院的司法部嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T17:59:05.356000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:59:05.537000+08:00","text":"不是嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T17:59:07.498000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:59:39.002000+08:00","text":"所以也就是說在所謂的五權分立，按照民進黨以及現在\n行政院所講的，要這樣的尊重五權分立，同樣的，行政院不尊重五權分立，而且老實說，我想\n請問在這一次提出覆議案之前，行政院說了好多話，我們也沒有看到行政院跟司法院有什麼樣\n的討論，我沒有看到他們任何的討論，討論也不用閉門會議嘛！","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T17:59:39.002000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:59:39.042000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T17:59:39.042000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:59:39.422000+08:00","text":"你反正就覺得立法院\n都是毀憲亂政嘛！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T17:59:39.462000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T17:59:41.202000+08:00","text":"你們大可以公開說：我們討論之後，把立法院大罵一頓，所以我們共同要提\n出覆議案。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T17:59:41.222000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:00:11.672000+08:00","text":"但是我也沒有看到，所以我覺得我們就法論法，第一個，我們沒有必要一定要請行\n政院長來做說明，我們即便沒有請行政院長來做說明也是合法。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T18:00:12.232000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:00:15.333000+08:00","text":"第二個，立法院之前有沒有前\n例呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T18:00:16.114000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:00:21.338000+08:00","text":"也有，我剛才也特別提到，我想柯總召腦筋應該很清楚，應該記憶都很清楚。","quality":0.633},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T18:00:21.999000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:01:01.371000+08:00","text":"第三個，\n如果你認為這個是違反權力分立原則，那我們更不需要行政院來做說明，我們全院委員會過去\n也有案例，各黨派代表來做討論之後再做審查，這個都是有前例辦理的，而且另外我們真的也\n念茲在茲，因為我們的院會真的、真的非常有限，而且又必須要在 15 天內完成整個覆議的表決\n協 53\n，再加上我們總預算現在也還連協商都沒有協商。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-06T18:01:02.151000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:01:17.120000+08:00","text":"如果我們真的覺得總預算非常重要的話，\n在覆議案，我們只要完備法定程序，那麼我想整個程序表決最後的結果絕對都是合法跟合憲\n，以上。","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2025-01-06T18:01:17.120000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T18:01:19.227000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2025-01-06T18:01:19.227000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:02:32.964000+08:00","text":"針對這次的覆議案，剛剛王鴻薇首席書記長講到 2013 年的會計法第九十\n九條之一，當年沒有行政院長列席，我覺得要跟院長還原當年 2013 年的狀況，當年是在處理特\n別費的除罪，除罪的對象有包括行政首長，還有包括大學教授，可是在修法的時候卻產生一個\n很大的錯誤，就是修法最後三讀通過的條文，卻少了「教」這個字，教師的「教」，所以當時\n通過的會計法第九十九條之一，後來只處理到行政首長，沒有處理到大學教授，所以大家譁然\n，大家一直罵，那個時候也是經過朝野協商之後，由行政院長提出覆議，立法院在最快的時間\n內就把這個覆議案通過，後來做條文的修正，再把大學教授補進去，所以那是那個時空背景。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2025-01-06T18:02:34.064000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:02:55.018000+08:00","text":"如果撇開會計法第九十九條當年 2013 年的狀況，我們再來看歷次的覆議案，歷次的覆議案我\n從時間序來說，2002 年的財政收支劃分法，有邀請行政院長列席，然後他有發言，是由民進黨\n4 人、國民黨 4 人、親民黨 4 人、台聯 2 人、無黨 1 人。","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2025-01-06T18:02:58.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:03:10.927000+08:00","text":"在 2003 年公民投票法的覆議案，也有\n邀請行政院長列席，發言人數是民進黨 6 人、國民黨 6 人、親民黨 4 人，台聯、無盟都是 2 人\n。","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2025-01-06T18:03:11.828000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:03:26.333000+08:00","text":"在 2004 年 319 槍擊的真相調查委員會，一樣是邀請行政院長列席後，發言人數是民進黨 8 人\n、國民黨 4 人、親民黨 4 人，台聯、無盟都 2 人。","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2025-01-06T18:03:26.993000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:03:37.475000+08:00","text":"在 2007 年的農會法跟漁會法的覆議案，一樣\n是邀請行政院長列席，發言人數就是每個政黨各推薦 1 人。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2025-01-06T18:03:39.376000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:03:52.420000+08:00","text":"2014 年地政士法第五十一條修正案\n的覆議案，一樣是邀請行政院長列席，發言人數國民黨 7 人、民進黨 7 人、台聯 2 人、無黨籍\n聯盟 1 人。","quality":0.755},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2025-01-06T18:03:54.320000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:04:06.744000+08:00","text":"一直到今年國會擴權的這個案，發言人數是國民黨 11 人、民進黨 11 人，民眾黨 2 人\n，這個是發生在你當院長的年代。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2025-01-06T18:04:07.264000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:04:32.372000+08:00","text":"所以我想院長你在主持立法院的議事，既然有這樣的一個慣\n例，你也有處理過一次覆議案，我們認為院長就以 2024 年 6 月 11 號的覆議案，我們希望院長就\n用同樣的處理方式來處理這一次的覆議案，好不好？謝謝。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T18:04:34.313000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:04:35.913000+08:00","text":"國民黨團有沒有要繼續發言？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T18:04:37.194000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:04:38.234000+08:00","text":"國民黨團有沒有要繼續發言？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T18:04:38.514000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:04:39.834000+08:00","text":"柯總召要再一次發言。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T18:04:40.234000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:04:43.198000+08:00","text":"沒有喔，\n我們請柯總召，請。院長……","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:04:43.198000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T18:04:44.198000+08:00","text":"院長，我還要講話，不好意思……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T18:04:44.198000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T18:04:45.198000+08:00","text":"我沒看到你舉手，柯總召請稍待，林思銘書記長請準備。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:04:43.198000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:05:19.390000+08:00","text":"是，院長，對於我們是不是一定要請行政院長來報告，立法院職權行使法第三十三條\n規定的非常清楚，依照立職法第三十三條的規定，全院委員會審查時得由立法院邀請行政院院\n長列席說明，並不是柯總召剛才講的「應」邀請行政院長到我們立法院來做說明，這是第一點\n我要敘明的。","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:05:20.011000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:05:37.707000+08:00","text":"另外就是對於司法院憲訴法的修法是不是跟行政院的職務有關這部分，我想還是\n要再次來跟我們社會大眾說明清楚。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:05:38.308000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:06:02.863000+08:00","text":"如果我們這一次邀請行政院長到立法院來列席做報告，這\n個已經違反權力分立的原則，也就是說，行政院不能越俎代庖就司法院執掌的法律由行政院長\n協 54\n來做報告，行政、立法、司法是三權分立的、互相尊重的，所以互不隸屬的。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:06:03.523000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:06:34.200000+08:00","text":"所以有關司法院\n執掌的法律案，我們立法院訂定之後，送到行政院，行政院只有對於立法院的法案予以尊重，\n但是它有沒有涉及到違憲這部分，或者你認為窒礙難行，要提覆議，不應該是由行政院來提出\n，而應該是會同司法院來做很詳盡的說明之後，你再來提覆議。","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:06:35.160000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:06:46.448000+08:00","text":"但是這個法案，我們到現在為\n止都沒有看到司法院跟行政院有會銜，共同來做商議，所以行政院長有沒有必要來，這個就很\n清楚了。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:06:47.388000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:06:57.635000+08:00","text":"我們認為站在權力分立原則的情況之下，立法院依法是有據的，也有例可循，我們是\n可以不用請行政院長到院來說明，謝謝。","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T18:06:57.635000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:06:58.796000+08:00","text":"謝謝林思銘書記長發言，請柯總召，請。","quality":0.467},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:07:03.716000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:07:35.137000+08:00","text":"院長、各位委員同仁，這是一個非常嚴肅的事情，這個是在憲法增修條文第三條裡面\n規定的，請大家去翻增修條文第三條規定，「行政院對於立法院決議之法律案、預算案、條約\n案，如認為有窒礙難行時，得經總統之核可……」，是「得經總統之核可」，總統已經核可了\n嘛！","quality":0.728},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:07:36.978000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:08:20.763000+08:00","text":"「於該決議案送達行政院十日內」，那個法案到行政院已經十天，一定要提向立法院提覆\n議案，也就是這個法案通過，已經出總統府到行政院，行政院收到十日內一定要提出覆議案，\n行政院也照憲法規定，在最後一天提出來，當然立法院就要處理，而立法院的處理要在十五天\n內完成，這個照憲法增修條文第三條來看就好了，所以我今天不知道林思銘委員、王鴻薇委員\n在講什麼？","quality":0.763},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:08:20.763000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:08:50.341000+08:00","text":"沒有錯，這個覆議案會在全院委員會處理，但是和現在所談的職權行使法的全院委\n員會得邀請是不一樣的，這是憲法層次，因為要召開全院委員會，而憲法層次一定要照憲法來\n，這第一個，我不知道為什麼要用這種來阻擋行政院長，他認為窒礙難行啊！","quality":0.725},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:08:50.601000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:08:51.582000+08:00","text":"為什麼和行政院\n有關係？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:08:51.582000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:09:15.459000+08:00","text":"當然立法院也有關係，立法院可以提復議案、立法院可以提釋憲，行政院也可以提釋\n憲，但是提釋憲，覆議案不是必要條件，行政院認為窒礙難行，可以跳過覆議案直接提起釋憲\n也可以啊！","quality":0.747},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:09:17.701000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:09:41.259000+08:00","text":"因為立法院也可以提釋憲，但是因為憲法訴訟會影響到每一個院……每一個院都是\n憲法機關，每一個院在處理它的法案、預算的時候，乃至於施政作為上，都有相當嚴重的影響\n度，所以一定、當然要找行政院長來啊！","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:09:41.259000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:09:45.301000+08:00","text":"他既然已經說要來，他已經說了，你不邀也不行！","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:09:46.941000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:10:04.563000+08:00","text":"我\n想比較重要的是，要在憲法規定的十五天內完成，剛才王鴻薇也講到這一點，都照這個規定來\n，所以各位請放心，因為就照憲法的程序來做就好了。","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:10:05.403000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:10:12.329000+08:00","text":"至於剛才談到的會計法那一次修正，我在場嘛！","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:10:13.910000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:11:11.491000+08:00","text":"那一次會計法修正就是很多大學教授、院長\n因為研究計畫的問題，報帳的會計項目搞錯，造成全國所有大專院校校長，乃至於教授、院長\n幾千個人都中招，都變成貪污治罪條例，尤其那時候黃世銘當檢察總長的時候，後來 213 馬王\n政爭，我把黃世銘告上法院，他告輸了，就退下來了，那時候黃世銘這個酷吏一直要辦每一個\n人，因為他們會計上弄錯了，要用貪污治罪條例來處理，有的大學校長都憂鬱症、跳樓了，那\n時候我辦公室多少大學校長的太太、家人來哭訴，說這個太嚴重了。","quality":0.702},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:11:12.352000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:11:40.289000+08:00","text":"全國教育界風聲鶴唳，每\n一個人都中招，包括柯文哲也一樣，柯文哲的數目比較少，只有 10 萬塊而已，當初柯文哲因為\n1450 報帳的問題，想盡辦法說他要選臺北市長，這過程我很清楚，柯文哲那時候常來我辦公室\n，有一天他問我說：「總召，你也是醫生，怎麼會從政？","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:11:42.530000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:11:45.173000+08:00","text":"」我馬上跟柯文哲講一句話：「你想\n選舉是不是？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:11:45.973000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:11:46.834000+08:00","text":"那就明講就好了。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:11:48.135000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:11:54.481000+08:00","text":"」但是他說現在調查局要約他，我說調查局約你，你就去面對\n協 55\n，你只有 10 萬塊而已嘛！","quality":0.576},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:11:54.601000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:12:19.155000+08:00","text":"他說當初那個計畫的錢他挪用去買 HD，還有幾張椅子，那些 HD 都\n落伍了，也丟掉了，十幾張椅子也找不到了，變成貪污治罪條例；找到的話就變成偽造文書。","quality":0.688},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:12:19.155000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:12:20.415000+08:00","text":"我說沒有關係，調查局你就去面對。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:12:20.536000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:12:21.756000+08:00","text":"後來問一問就無保請回，因為數字太小。","quality":0.688},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:12:33.356000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:13:28.544000+08:00","text":"過去因為大學校\n長身分比較崇高，很多研究計畫報在他們身上，有人身上是幾億，三、四億都有，這是長期以\n來國家在發展科學上，國科會有很多研究計畫補助給學術界，所以那非修不可，那時候林鴻池\n當國民黨總召，大家談一談說這一定要處理，我們的黨團會議上也有很多人說一定要處理，當\n時處理的時候是由王院長主持朝野協商，我們的幹事長是潘孟安委員，書記長是邱議瑩委員，\n我們是最後黨團會議開完，大家認為沒有問題才過去簽名，我們是最後簽名的。","quality":0.751},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:13:29.785000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:14:05.633000+08:00","text":"台聯那時候是\n林世嘉委員，國民黨應該是由林益世擔任政策會執行長，大家都簽完了，看一看說沒有問題，\n簽完重新去打字的時候，行政院送來的竟然少打一個「教」字，其實最重要的是教職員，聽說\n那是黃世銘做手腳的，他還堅持要把每一個人抓去以貪污治罪條例查辦，所以引起軒然大波。","quality":0.641},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:14:07.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:14:16.415000+08:00","text":"那一年通過的時候是 2013 年 5 月 31 號，排在最後一個案子，王院長在將近 12 點的時候把這個\n法案唸過去。","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:14:18.116000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:14:20.338000+08:00","text":"這個法案三讀通過以後，我第一個打給誰？","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:14:20.338000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:14:34.386000+08:00","text":"我打給柯文哲，我說這個已經解套了\n，還有很多人在等待這個法案，我講的這些過去的歷史都是千真萬確的，但是柯文哲他竟然出\n來亂講話，所以引起軒然大波。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:14:37.337000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:14:48.872000+08:00","text":"後來沒有辦法只好再重新來，就把「教」字填回去，所以那一\n次覆議案根本朝野協商就可以了，就把「教」字拿回去，就是這樣。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:14:50.794000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:14:55.045000+08:00","text":"我現在講就是說我們要釋\n憲，立法院可以釋憲啊！","quality":0.55},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:14:56.346000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:14:58.308000+08:00","text":"立法院釋憲要不要行政院長提出覆議案？","quality":0.353},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:15:00.391000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:15:08.780000+08:00","text":"覆議案是行政院的部分，所\n以行政院要釋憲也可以，不覆議也可以直接送，像現在我們準備直接送釋憲的也很多。","quality":0.804},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:15:11.724000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:15:17.110000+08:00","text":"所以我\n今天在這裡講說王鴻薇委員你們都不要擔心，而且你們講話都脫離、逾越了憲法的規定。","quality":0.718},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:15:17.992000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:15:27.102000+08:00","text":"院長\n，這是一個非常嚴肅的事情，你要怎麼排，大家來看一看，就由程序委員去排嘛！","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:15:27.863000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:15:31.651000+08:00","text":"我們也可以\n算得出來未來還有幾次院會，未來至少還有四次院會嘛！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:15:32.331000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:15:35.233000+08:00","text":"我們說要處理其他法案，當然可以處\n理啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:15:36.034000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:15:50.704000+08:00","text":"但是我今天在這裡對王鴻薇委員有一些更正的說法，因為剛才你的意思是說總預算沒有\n一次是如期在 12 月 31 號通過，那今天是 1 月幾號？","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:15:50.704000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:15:57.167000+08:00","text":"今天是 1 月 6 號，總預算現在還有哪一個\n委員會沒有通過你知道嗎？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:15:57.167000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:16:03.610000+08:00","text":"就是司法及法制委員會，我一直跟國民黨拜託說，你們的召委要趕\n快排完，我們趕快來協商。","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:16:04.951000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:16:33.142000+08:00","text":"吳宗憲委員當召委，他竟然總預算不排，法務部的部分都還沒排、\n總預算都還沒審查，他卻排一個黃國昌要的、而且非常離譜的法案，最後每一個法條都保留協\n商，照理說，這個法案應該要先開公聽會，也就是說……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T18:16:33.142000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T18:16:38.355000+08:00","text":"柯總召，講重點啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:16:38.355000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:16:50.043000+08:00","text":"所以我今天要講，國民黨自己不負責，到現在都已經是 1 月了，你連總預算都還沒排\n。","quality":0.576},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:16:51.003000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:16:53.385000+08:00","text":"我在講話你安靜一點好不好？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:16:54.806000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:16:55.826000+08:00","text":"我講話你安靜一下好不好？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T18:16:55.826000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T18:16:57.688000+08:00","text":"講太久了啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:16:57.688000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:17:09.997000+08:00","text":"我要講的是憲政體制的問題，今天黃國昌排一個叫妨礙司法公正罪，這是非常諷刺的\n啊！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:17:11.938000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:17:29.081000+08:00","text":"黃國昌現在天天在挑戰司法，柯 P 犯罪事實非常明顯，判 28 年、5 年，，他今天還說 111\n要上街頭，要找國民黨一起去上街頭、要抗議司法不公，然後今天還排一個叫妨礙司法公正罪\n，這會讓人家笑死！","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T18:17:29.952000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:17:32.815000+08:00","text":"院長，這是今天協商的重點嗎？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T18:17:32.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:17:33.776000+08:00","text":"所以我們就不要再講那些五四三……","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:17:34.898000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:17:36.339000+08:00","text":"你不聽你就出去，好不好？","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:17:36.900000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:17:38.001000+08:00","text":"你不要干擾我講話。","quality":0.375},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:17:40.304000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:17:46.391000+08:00","text":"所以我今天要講一個很重要的事情，王鴻薇你今天一開始就跟吳思瑤在吵架，說總預\n算從來沒有如期完成。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:17:49.731000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:18:10.880000+08:00","text":"在 2016 年民進黨執政以後，總預算不可能如期完成，因為國民黨就給你\n刁嘛，所以每次我都要去拜託，那時候費鴻泰的時候，他說要道歉，我也上臺道歉，什麼莊豐\n嘉的事情等等、包括日本食品的事情，我們都忍氣吞聲，讓總預算能夠在延會的時候通過。","quality":0.747},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:18:12.081000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:18:26.306000+08:00","text":"那\n時候我們在野的時候，坦白講，國民黨多數，我們還是一樣就配合，讓總預算能夠在 12 月 31\n號通過就通過，過去當然有這個紀錄，你去查立法院歷史。","quality":0.672},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:18:27.086000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:18:43.780000+08:00","text":"第二個，王鴻薇講說公務員調薪，在罵銓敘部部長處理得很繁雜。","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:18:43.780000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:19:07.009000+08:00","text":"公務員調薪、乃至於退休\n人員調薪，大家注意，全世界沒有一個行業是退休以後還可以調薪的，但是我們這次調一半，\n還是有，去年在職的調 4%、退休的調 2%，現在是 3%、1.5%，一定有調薪的，但是為什麼沒有\n確定呢？","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:19:07.369000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:19:09.972000+08:00","text":"因為我們沒有法制化。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:19:11.174000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:19:35.671000+08:00","text":"所以有關於公務員加薪的法制化也可以處理，那個還沒有立法\n，但是在總預算編列的時候可以把調薪的部分編進去，所以在職的和退休的一定都有，這個時\n候不確定是因為沒有法制化，但是一定有的，因為總預算已經編進去了。","quality":0.774},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:19:35.731000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:19:37.192000+08:00","text":"這一點我要特別講清楚。","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:19:38.453000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:19:45.957000+08:00","text":"等一下，我要講一下，我們今天講到軍公教的問題，因為軍公教長期以來是國民黨鐵\n票……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:19:47.858000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:20:11.201000+08:00","text":"還有 18%、所得替代率太高等等，所以馬英九時代兩次想要進行年金改革都沒有成\n功，也不敢弄，好不容易小英總統執政以後，我們把年金改革做完了，現在警察人員人事條例\n又要反改革，而且是違憲的，今天我要把這些東西敘明。","quality":0.772},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:20:12.502000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:20:22.143000+08:00","text":"另外，王鴻薇剛才提到柯建銘的子弟兵何部長當勞動部部長講勞保撥補，當然是要撥補。","quality":0.861},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:20:22.143000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:20:39.818000+08:00","text":"勞\n保最後責任、終極責任當然是政府嘛，勞保可以倒，坦白講，沒有一次來擠兌的話，我們的保\n險都不會倒的，都有時間的延長。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:20:40.018000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:20:42.495000+08:00","text":"假如你認為撥補不對的話，那勞保年改誰敢做？","quality":0.684},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:20:42.575000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:20:57.916000+08:00","text":"因為現在勞\n工退休以後拿到的連公務員的地板都沒有，更何況天花板，連公務員的地板都沒有，所以這很\n清楚……","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:20:58.436000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:21:01.337000+08:00","text":"一定要用撥補來處理……\n協 57","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T18:21:01.557000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:21:02.837000+08:00","text":"柯總召，25 分鐘過了，謝謝啦。","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:21:03.317000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:21:05.298000+08:00","text":"我今天把這些東西全部講清楚……","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:21:05.658000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:21:06.838000+08:00","text":"這是一個原則問題……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:21:06.838000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:21:10.479000+08:00","text":"所以有關於本案，請照憲法原則去處理就好。","quality":0.722},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T18:21:10.559000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:21:13.600000+08:00","text":"好的，謝謝柯總召。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T18:21:14.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:21:16.181000+08:00","text":"傅崐萁總召要發言，發言完畢後我們開始進行處理。請。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T18:21:18.424000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:21:25.649000+08:00","text":"今天謝謝柯總召又給我們上了七法全書，新法讓我們能夠……","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:21:25.649000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T18:21:26.649000+08:00","text":"十二法！","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T18:21:25.649000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:21:29.512000+08:00","text":"要準備上路，柯氏法典。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T18:21:30.593000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:21:59.309000+08:00","text":"我在這裡要跟大家還有全院報告一下，第一個，總預算真的\n迫在眉睫，目前剩下的院會時間……尤其柯總召一直不斷地試圖要影響我們審查預算的期程，\n一直希望在 1 月 15 號院會就能夠會期結束。","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T18:22:05.522000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:22:20.750000+08:00","text":"柯總召大法師一再提 15 號能不能結束，可是依照\n他現在這種態勢，我們也很希望配合，但如果真的希望 15 號會期要結束，我們很多的事情要儘\n快……16 號啦。","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T18:22:21.050000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:22:23.091000+08:00","text":"儘快來推動，包括我們的總預算……","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:22:23.091000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T18:22:24.091000+08:00","text":"你們韓院長要去美國嘛，所以是 16 號嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T18:22:24.091000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T18:22:25.091000+08:00","text":"我們的總預算……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:22:25.091000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T18:22:26.091000+08:00","text":"這是你們一直講的嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T18:22:23.231000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:22:56.616000+08:00","text":"我們的總預算迫在眉睫，所以我想柯大法師一直在講我們要早點結束，我們也都很希\n望早點結束，但是如果我們很多該處理的事沒有處理好，尤其是總預算，我想這個誰都承擔不\n起，這是重中之重，所以我們建請院長趕快裁定哪一天來做覆議案的全院委員會及投票。","quality":0.954},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T18:22:57.956000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:23:24.612000+08:00","text":"我特\n別要強調，我們既然是立法院，一定要按照我們的職權行使法，職權行使法第三十三條寫得非\n常、非常清楚，當覆議案發生的時候，行政院院長若提出覆議案的話，我們「得」邀請行政院\n院長到立法院……","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:23:24.612000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T18:23:25.612000+08:00","text":"增修條文拿給我看一下，憲法增修條文哪一條是得邀請……","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T18:23:24.712000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:23:25.132000+08:00","text":"你不要插嘴嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T18:23:25.172000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:23:25.913000+08:00","text":"到底誰在講話？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T18:23:25.913000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:23:25.913000+08:00","text":"你閉嘴！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T18:23:37.706000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:23:48.822000+08:00","text":"所以我們「得」邀請行政院院長來做這樣的報告，但是第一個，現在我們看到總預算\n的時間已經這麼壓迫。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T18:23:51.387000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:24:22.662000+08:00","text":"第二個，依照我們的職權行使法，過去會計法的時候，剛剛柯總召講了\n很多理由，但是當時大法師的魔法杖一比說不需要請行政院院長來，所以當時會計法就沒有請\n行政院院長到院來報告，除了會計法的事實以外，現在比較嚴重的事情是，第一個、總預算的\n問題；第二個、會期即將要結束；還有第三個、我們的職權行使法就是這樣規定。","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T18:24:23.702000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:25:04.161000+08:00","text":"當然，柯總\n協 58\n召不斷地提憲法增修條文，憲法增修條文我唸一次，因為他每次講的都是語焉不詳，大家也聽\n不懂他講的內容到底是什麼，所以我們在這裡重新複誦一下什麼叫憲法增修條文第三條「行政\n院對於立法院決議之法律案、預算案、條約案，如認為有窒礙難行時，得經總統之核可，於該\n決議案送達行政院十日內，移請立法院覆議。","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T18:25:04.161000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:25:23.155000+08:00","text":"」這個條文寫得很清楚，今天就是得到總統府的\n核可，所以它送到立法院來提起覆議案，that's all，全部條文就是這樣，送到立法院之後就要按\n照我們的職權行使法來辦理。","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T18:25:23.975000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:25:40.229000+08:00","text":"還有一個很重要的重點，我要再三強調，現在我們的憲訴法修正以後，院長，未來如果再有\n人跟你提起這樣的事情的話，我們可以很清楚地說清楚。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T18:25:41.751000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:26:09.953000+08:00","text":"憲法法庭並沒有停擺，我們按照捷克\n制的修法要有十位大法官出席，九位一致同意才能做四種重大的判決，第一個、違憲的判決；\n第二個、解散政黨的判決；第三個、彈劾的判決；第四個、暫時處分的判決。","quality":0.988},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T18:26:09.953000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:26:50.219000+08:00","text":"除了四大重點、\n重大的案例判決以外，其他的完全都可以來進行、來受理，而且幾乎、絕大部分都是直接駁回\n，現在的憲法法庭幾乎都是直接駁回，聲請釋憲幾乎、大部分都是直接駁回，所以現在一年違\n憲的判決根本沒有幾件，你們說會影響到百分之九十幾的人，這是一個笑話！","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T18:26:50.219000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:26:58.001000+08:00","text":"幾乎、大部分的\n人民聲請案都是直接駁回的，所以憲法法庭並沒有停擺，它還是在進行。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T18:26:58.501000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:27:05.543000+08:00","text":"但是現在耐人尋味，\n一個最重要的重點是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T18:27:05.543000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:27:24.634000+08:00","text":"既然我們的職權行使法是「得」邀請行政院長，而大家很好奇的是\n，為什麼行政院可以越俎代庖幫司法院來解釋司法院的職權？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T18:27:24.634000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:27:36.729000+08:00","text":"難道行政院已經把立法院和司法\n院都納入它的麾下，難道現在我們的司法院已經是行政院的司法局、司法科？","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T18:27:37.610000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:27:45.352000+08:00","text":"行政院卓榮泰院\n長是不是已經把司法院當作他的司法科還是司法局？","quality":0.828},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T18:27:46.212000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:27:52.514000+08:00","text":"所以他有這個長臂管轄，全部立法院歸他\n管、司法院歸他管，我們讓這個惡例絕對不能開。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T18:27:56.634000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:28:01.436000+08:00","text":"行政院長怎麼可以越俎代庖，幫司法院來解\n釋它的窒礙難行呢？","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T18:28:02.276000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:28:04.277000+08:00","text":"所以我覺得這個我們要堅持。","quality":1},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T18:28:05.337000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:28:10.939000+08:00","text":"現在主要還是要回到總預算的問題，要不要\n趕快解決？","quality":1},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T18:28:10.939000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:28:11.919000+08:00","text":"會期要不要提前結束？","quality":1},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T18:28:13.740000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:28:22.843000+08:00","text":"還有我們總預算第二輪的協商都還沒有開始，所以真的壓迫\n在一起，而且依照立法院職權行使法，可能我們要趕快訂好時間，謝謝。","quality":0.887},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T18:28:25.984000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:28:29.547000+08:00","text":"柯總召，容許我處理好嗎？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T18:28:30.628000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:28:31.448000+08:00","text":"因為你發言已經發言非常多了。","quality":0.308},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:28:31.448000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T18:28:32.448000+08:00","text":"等一下！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:28:32.448000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T18:28:33.448000+08:00","text":"這是很嚴肅的事情……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T18:28:33.109000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:28:46.639000+08:00","text":"我們先把剛才壯世代黨團協商溝通完畢的，現在正在整理附件，有一份協商草稿我先唸一下\n，我們一步一步來，可以的話，就拜託各位黨團幹部簽字。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T18:28:49.025000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:28:57.431000+08:00","text":"協商主題：\n社會福利及衛生環境、經濟兩委員會報告審查委員吳春城等 42 人擬具「壯世代政策與產業發\n展促進法草案」案。","quality":0.479},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T18:28:59.373000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:29:08.797000+08:00","text":"協商結論：\n一、法案名稱、第一條至第十一條、第十五條至第二十一條，照協商結果通過，如附件。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T18:29:10.097000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:29:14.379000+08:00","text":"二、條次、援引條次，授權議事人員調整。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T18:29:15.139000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:29:19.581000+08:00","text":"三、其餘均照審查會審查結果通過。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T18:29:19.581000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:29:25.523000+08:00","text":"四、本案院會進行處理時，依 1 月 3 日黨團共識進行處理。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T18:29:25.623000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:29:26.643000+08:00","text":"請問各位黨團幹部有沒有意見？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T18:29:29.011000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:29:31.413000+08:00","text":"（無）沒有意見，我們就請簽字好嗎？好。協 59","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T18:29:32.234000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:29:35.976000+08:00","text":"建議那個附件，因為剛剛條文滿多的，發給大家看一下，好不好？謝謝。","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T18:29:36.137000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:29:39.739000+08:00","text":"附件印完以後就發給各位黨團幹部看，我們一個一個來。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T18:29:39.739000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T18:29:46.745000+08:00","text":"國發會、主管機關看一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:29:46.745000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:29:59.870000+08:00","text":"吳思瑤看過的，絕對都沒問題，然後我們有協商……孟楷也看過，春城也看過，你們\n三個有看過？有。","quality":0.649},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2025-01-06T18:30:01.031000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:30:05.373000+08:00","text":"所以院長剛剛都已經有協商，而且國發會副主委也都同意。","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:32:04.618000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:32:16.303000+08:00","text":"院長，有關最後一案行政院組織法的運動部，那天都講好了，因為主委不去協商，現\n在協商結論拿來簽一簽就好了。","quality":0.804},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T18:32:16.303000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T18:32:20.924000+08:00","text":"覆議案先簽一簽，我們照程序來。","quality":0.231},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:32:20.924000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:32:23.305000+08:00","text":"你都玩假的，我怎麼會不知道，我只是不忍跟你「黜臭」。","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:32:24.006000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:32:30.928000+08:00","text":"這個案子要擺在第一個，\n等一下，我跟你講，沒有關係，你不要用給我們卡來卡去的，假如照你這樣的話……","quality":0.659},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T18:32:30.928000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T18:32:33.317500+08:00","text":"依規定處理，沒有共識也沒辦法啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T18:32:33.317500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T18:32:35.707000+08:00","text":"南轅北轍的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T18:32:35.707000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:32:43.195000+08:00","text":"對，一個一個來，這個案子吳春城委員已\n經等得眉毛都變白了。","quality":0.56},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:32:56.568000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:32:59.609000+08:00","text":"假如照一個一個來，那我們第五案怎麼可能簽走呢？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:33:00.669000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:33:24.936000+08:00","text":"運動部大家都講好了，假如運動\n部你要抵制的話沒有關係，我們看你們怎麼……那就這樣來簽一簽就好了，我們專心來討論憲\n法訴訟，院長，你聽我講話，有關於前瞻的部分就協商，大家趕快提案，提案才能夠進入協商\n程序，這很簡單嘛！","quality":0.753},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:33:24.996000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:33:29.017000+08:00","text":"後面哪一個案子？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:33:32.018000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:33:37.896000+08:00","text":"不是……好，那明天再來談有關於這個……","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:33:37.896000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:33:39.856000+08:00","text":"沒有，你這個……","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:33:39.856000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:33:49.378000+08:00","text":"等一下、等一下，行政院長要不要來列席，這個還沒談完，明天再來談也沒有關係，\n那明天談，反正院會……","quality":0.65},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2025-01-06T18:33:52.098000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:33:52.599000+08:00","text":"沒有共識啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:33:55.059000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:33:56.259000+08:00","text":"什麼叫沒有共識？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:33:56.259000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:34:15.308000+08:00","text":"你聽我講完，不要走，傅崐萁請坐好，我第一次看到你竟然有點認\n知能力，亂講一通，你們志勇軍那一流的，包括什麼你們憲法學者亂講的，你也跟著邯鄲學步\n，你還會講話，還會講憲法，來，請坐下來好好聽。","quality":0.802},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:34:15.308000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:34:36.763000+08:00","text":"第一個，釋憲本來就是處理包括政黨解散等 4 個，但是人民可不可以來聲請釋憲？","quality":0.562},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:34:36.903000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:35:17.696000+08:00","text":"當然可以\n，所以大法官以後照法了，人民就可以來聲請釋憲了，只要這樣的話，人民聲請釋憲都全部駁\n回，亂講一通，人民釋憲太多，說了以後就有程序，要開會也要照憲判來處理，所以傅崐萁不\n要亂講話，什麼他還懂得捷克模式，我們要捷克模式、我們要入法，所以你們自己提的法是 10\n個、9 個，你要照捷克模式是 8 個就可以釋憲，那也可以啊，他敢嗎？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:35:21.057000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:35:21.798000+08:00","text":"他知道什麼叫捷克模式？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:35:22.338000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:35:25.519000+08:00","text":"協 60\n我聽不懂，是不足額就可以釋憲嗎？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:35:25.519000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:35:32.562000+08:00","text":"所以問題根本翁曉玲志勇軍之流的人才可以，亂講一通\n……","quality":0.652},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:35:33.463000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:35:33.743000+08:00","text":"等一下……","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2025-01-06T18:35:34.563000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:35:35.444000+08:00","text":"院長，再讓我講一次。","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:35:35.684000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:35:59.574000+08:00","text":"等一下，我要講很清楚，這很重要，人民聲請釋憲的時候，第一個要走裁定，然後收\n件，收件以後要 3 個大法官來看，一致決的話當然就要釋憲；沒有一致決的話當然要有理由書\n，要寫很清楚，為什麼你來聲請釋憲我不給你收、要把你退回。","quality":0.763},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:36:04.552000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:36:21.585000+08:00","text":"這是我修的，108 年我曾參與審\n議，以前不必理由書，現在大法官同意要備理由書，而且不能放制式的，我要聲請釋憲是很重\n要的事情，為什麼可以把人民權益退回，所以要講很清楚，一定要寫得很清楚。","quality":0.759},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:36:22.465000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:36:28.350000+08:00","text":"第二個，至於\n有關於總預算現在怎麼還二輪，總預算被國民黨卡到現在……","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T18:36:28.350000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T18:36:35.695000+08:00","text":"柯總召，大家都跑光了啦，不知道你……","quality":0.071},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:36:35.695000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:36:36.175000+08:00","text":"你趕快離開好不好？","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:36:37.416000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:36:38.077000+08:00","text":"你不聽就出去嘛！","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T18:36:38.077000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T18:36:39.077000+08:00","text":"我們不能出去啊，那個憲訴法……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:36:39.077000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T18:36:40.077000+08:00","text":"人家發言你在幹什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T18:36:38.517000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:36:40.979000+08:00","text":"我們也不同意，我要表達說我們也不同意……","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2025-01-06T18:36:40.979000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T18:36:41.979000+08:00","text":"他們走是他們的事情耶！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T18:36:41.139000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:36:42.380000+08:00","text":"我們的行政院院長來報告，因為我覺得也不必要，又在這邊一直在講……","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:36:42.380000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T18:36:45.179250+08:00","text":"我在講話你……","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T18:36:45.179250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T18:36:47.978500+08:00","text":"講到不知道民國幾年啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2025-01-06T18:36:47.978500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T18:36:50.777750+08:00","text":"麥玉珍。","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T18:36:50.777750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T18:36:53.577000+08:00","text":"因為他都講他的過去多好、多厲害，講這個沒……我們知道你很厲害……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:36:53.577000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T18:36:56.376250+08:00","text":"不是啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:36:56.376250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T18:36:59.175500+08:00","text":"我們有不同意見，我們院長要來，你說不要來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2025-01-06T18:36:59.175500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T18:37:01.974750+08:00","text":"你不要插人家話。","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T18:37:01.974750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T18:37:04.774000+08:00","text":"講了過去很好，這 30 年……","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-06T18:37:04.774000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:37:07.536000+08:00","text":"你們連自己的壯世代都不要通過了嗎？","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T18:37:07.536000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:37:18.903000+08:00","text":"通過就是說我們現在協商就要講協商的，不要再講說你過去怎麼樣、怎麼樣、怎麼樣\n……我們知道你要教訓你的子孫就回家教訓……好啦！","quality":0.792},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-06T18:37:18.903000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T18:37:19.903000+08:00","text":"現在大家都走了，那就沒有壯世代……","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T18:37:19.383000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:37:23.745000+08:00","text":"民進黨的子孫一直教訓，不要在這邊一直教訓大家。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:37:23.745000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T18:37:24.745000+08:00","text":"你趕快出去。","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T18:37:23.965000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:37:26.627000+08:00","text":"出去不出去不是你決定。","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:37:26.627000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T18:37:28.648000+08:00","text":"我在講話你在插什麼東西？","quality":0.091},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T18:37:28.648000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:37:30.409000+08:00","text":"我插嘴就是你講太多啦！協 61","quality":0.455},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:37:30.409000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T18:37:32.670286+08:00","text":"院長你要……","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T18:37:32.670286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T18:37:34.931571+08:00","text":"講一大堆，又不是重點，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-06T18:37:34.931571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T18:37:37.192857+08:00","text":"韓國瑜你還是院長嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T18:37:37.192857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T18:37:39.454143+08:00","text":"每天在說大家尊重你，但是你……","quality":0.083},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-06T18:37:39.454143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T18:37:41.715429+08:00","text":"……吳春城的法案嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T18:37:41.715429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T18:37:43.976714+08:00","text":"倚老賣老一直在講、一直在講……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2025-01-06T18:37:43.976714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T18:37:46.238000+08:00","text":"麥玉珍你不要再講了啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T18:37:46.238000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:37:47.219000+08:00","text":"我叫他不要再講了，不是叫我們不要再講。","quality":0.353},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2025-01-06T18:37:47.219000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T18:37:48.219000+08:00","text":"在插話耶！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T18:37:47.219000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:37:47.499000+08:00","text":"插話是應該的啊！好啦！","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-06T18:37:47.499000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T18:37:48.499000+08:00","text":"那就全部都走了啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T18:37:48.499000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T18:37:49.499000+08:00","text":"說了半天不讓插話。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T18:37:48.239000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:37:49.040000+08:00","text":"謝謝大家，現在主席做裁決，麥委員……","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T18:37:49.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:37:49.480000+08:00","text":"我們院長太好了，一直在……","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2025-01-06T18:37:49.480000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T18:37:50.480000+08:00","text":"院長、院長……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T18:37:49.941000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:37:50.641000+08:00","text":"好了，你不要亂了啦！","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T18:37:50.641000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T18:37:51.641000+08:00","text":"不要亂了啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-06T18:37:51.641000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T18:37:52.641000+08:00","text":"（現場一片混亂）","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T18:37:50.822000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:37:50.942000+08:00","text":"你們才是亂啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-01-06T18:37:50.982000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-06T18:37:51.142000+08:00","text":"講了一大堆講不完！","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T18:37:51.642000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T18:37:58.213429+08:00","text":"大家做過的發言，目前沒有共識，另外擇期協商，現在散會。","quality":0.174},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-06T18:37:58.513429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-06T18:37:59.656286+08:00","text":"散會（18 時 38 分）","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}