{"error":false,"id":["164502"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":164502,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164502","日期":"2025-10-22","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-4-20-3","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第4會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":4,"會次":3,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第4會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2025-10-22T09:43:56+08:00","結束時間":"2025-10-22T09:56:31+08:00","影片長度":"00:12:35","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/615807a88c5be4da37147d1c0d8efdaee29853ba2d60c06d83c966d97180d5d253aeae6a5651927f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"09:43:56 - 09:56:31","會議時間":"2025-10-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處、財政部就「中央對直轄市及縣（市）政府補助辦法修正後，一般性補助款審查與評比基準、財務計畫檢核基礎、撥款方式等規範及作業程序為何？修改財力級次計算公式之合理性及對各縣市補助款影響為何？計畫型補助款範圍與業務定義？對各縣市未來整體財政補助金額之影響」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.523468750000001,"end":9.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.03784375,"end":10.054718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.08846875,"end":12.484718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.552218750000002,"end":14.509718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13.649093750000002,"end":15.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.93971875,"end":17.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.72409375,"end":20.348468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.98971875,"end":21.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.242843750000002,"end":22.829093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.70659375,"end":27.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.465968750000002,"end":24.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":24.53346875,"end":24.567218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.567218750000002,"end":25.140968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.984718750000003,"end":26.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":28.262843750000002,"end":29.106593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.106593750000002,"end":30.895343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":30.895343750000002,"end":31.671593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.671593750000003,"end":33.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":32.14409375,"end":33.274718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.612218750000004,"end":45.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.50471875,"end":50.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.88784375,"end":59.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":60.679718750000006,"end":61.455968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.86534375,"end":61.72596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":61.945343750000006,"end":74.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.27409375,"end":64.88159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.83034375,"end":72.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.43721875,"end":77.08221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":75.10784375,"end":75.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":75.76596875,"end":76.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":77.08221875000001,"end":78.75284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.75284375000001,"end":91.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":78.76971875000001,"end":79.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":79.71471875,"end":80.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":90.75096875,"end":96.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.30721875,"end":98.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":96.91034375000001,"end":97.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":98.05784375,"end":104.94284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.55909375,"end":105.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.03971875,"end":106.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":106.09034375,"end":106.54596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.54596875,"end":116.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":117.29534375,"end":125.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.39221875000001,"end":120.14721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.96971875000001,"end":122.84721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.53034375000001,"end":129.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":130.33971875,"end":137.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.29659375,"end":138.57471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.18221875,"end":144.91971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":143.08034375,"end":149.57721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.78409375,"end":155.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.61409375000002,"end":158.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.50409375,"end":162.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.65534375000001,"end":167.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.76846875,"end":169.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.79346875000002,"end":170.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.12659375,"end":174.46784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.63659375,"end":175.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.35784375,"end":178.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.78784375,"end":180.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.35721875000002,"end":184.55909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.20034375,"end":186.68534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.34346875,"end":202.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":201.99096875,"end":205.55159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.45034375,"end":206.95221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":206.46284375000002,"end":218.30909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.50909375,"end":208.18409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.53346875000003,"end":215.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.54971875,"end":218.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.30909375000002,"end":224.23221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.78909375,"end":227.43846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.07971875,"end":229.10909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":229.24409375000002,"end":243.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.87659375,"end":232.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.57659375000003,"end":234.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.89284375000003,"end":236.70284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.22159375,"end":238.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.28909375,"end":238.59284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.53346875000003,"end":243.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.16159375,"end":247.67159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.66721875000002,"end":258.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":256.90221875000003,"end":258.42096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":258.43784375,"end":261.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.85534375000003,"end":263.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":261.94784375,"end":262.74096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.12471875,"end":265.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.84159375,"end":268.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.79909375,"end":269.87909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.43596875000003,"end":272.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.30471875,"end":275.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.51534375,"end":283.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":282.72096875,"end":284.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.37909375000004,"end":283.41284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.71659375,"end":285.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.14659375,"end":288.05346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.39096875,"end":292.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.60971875,"end":293.30159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.99346875000003,"end":295.12409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.66409375,"end":297.09846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.02659375,"end":298.53284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.95034375,"end":301.38471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.05971875,"end":304.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.92846875000004,"end":307.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.78034375000004,"end":317.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.00659375000004,"end":318.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.01909375,"end":336.63659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.29471875,"end":351.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.56659375000004,"end":353.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.44409375000004,"end":355.03034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.16534375000003,"end":355.84034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.46471875000003,"end":363.04596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.03346875,"end":362.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.60721875,"end":362.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.04596875000004,"end":363.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.94034375,"end":364.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.02471875000003,"end":366.58971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.07534375,"end":364.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.66159375,"end":366.48846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.58971875000003,"end":366.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.65721875,"end":391.21034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.02846875,"end":367.65284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.28534375000004,"end":371.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.02346875,"end":372.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.47034375000004,"end":375.80346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.71034375000005,"end":379.56659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.08534375000005,"end":382.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.19346875,"end":396.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.26096875,"end":391.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.66596875000005,"end":392.29034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.79596875000004,"end":413.08034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.12784375,"end":406.63409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.17346875000004,"end":412.86096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.89034375,"end":419.12159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.67846875000004,"end":422.69909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.23909375000005,"end":424.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.27284375000005,"end":425.83784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":426.07409375000003,"end":429.11159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.77846875,"end":427.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.48284375000003,"end":429.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.30971875,"end":432.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.62596875,"end":437.46471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":435.28784375000004,"end":442.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.40534375000004,"end":440.89034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":441.10971875,"end":442.42596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.69596875,"end":447.64034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":448.09596875000005,"end":451.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.19659375000003,"end":453.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.56784375,"end":452.80409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.86721875,"end":471.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.94284375,"end":457.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":458.23784375,"end":458.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":471.43409375000005,"end":485.91284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.16221875,"end":484.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.30534375,"end":490.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":490.08096875,"end":503.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":491.17784375,"end":491.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":493.33784375000005,"end":496.15596875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":502.60221875,"end":505.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":506.98971875,"end":509.40284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":509.68971875000005,"end":512.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":510.43221875000006,"end":510.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":512.9128437500001,"end":518.1609687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":515.7647187499999,"end":516.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":517.7053437500001,"end":518.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":518.8190937500001,"end":520.2197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":519.3759687500001,"end":520.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":520.2197187500001,"end":520.5403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":520.5403437500001,"end":522.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":522.97034375,"end":525.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":525.5690937500001,"end":528.5559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":528.9609687500001,"end":545.1103437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":545.3972187500001,"end":545.8022187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":545.8190937500001,"end":546.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":547.60784375,"end":548.6709687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":548.97471875,"end":550.0547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":550.2234687499999,"end":550.6115937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":550.6115937500001,"end":553.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":554.07096875,"end":555.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":556.18034375,"end":557.0747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":557.27721875,"end":558.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":559.55534375,"end":559.8928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":560.4665937500001,"end":562.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":563.08221875,"end":563.7234687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":564.71909375,"end":565.0734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":565.6640937500001,"end":566.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":566.9465937500001,"end":569.0390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":566.98034375,"end":567.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":570.0178437500001,"end":570.8784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":570.96284375,"end":571.0303437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":571.51971875,"end":575.3503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":575.01284375,"end":576.4978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":577.8815937500001,"end":580.1259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":580.51409375,"end":585.7790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":585.3234687500001,"end":585.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":585.94784375,"end":593.9297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":593.9297187500001,"end":599.6840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":594.9253437500001,"end":597.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":599.6840937500001,"end":599.8022187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":599.8022187500001,"end":600.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":600.03846875,"end":601.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":601.6753437500001,"end":602.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":602.5190937500001,"end":609.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":609.43784375,"end":612.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":613.13346875,"end":617.5715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":617.03159375,"end":617.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":617.06534375,"end":617.9428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":618.58409375,"end":618.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":619.03971875,"end":641.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":640.6059687500001,"end":656.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":646.6809687500001,"end":646.9340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":654.5109687500001,"end":654.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":657.31221875,"end":661.2609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":659.38784375,"end":663.2690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":663.60659375,"end":671.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":663.8428437500002,"end":666.4584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":670.74471875,"end":672.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":672.5503437500001,"end":676.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":675.5034687500001,"end":677.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":677.08971875,"end":681.1059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":677.1909687500001,"end":677.4272187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":680.36346875,"end":681.4265937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":682.2197187500001,"end":683.8059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":682.99596875,"end":684.7509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":685.3078437500001,"end":685.7803437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":685.4428437500001,"end":685.7465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":685.7803437500002,"end":686.4722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":686.4722187500001,"end":686.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":686.77596875,"end":696.0234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":689.7122187500001,"end":693.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":695.3315937500001,"end":696.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":696.05721875,"end":696.1584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":696.1584687500001,"end":696.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":696.76596875,"end":699.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":697.2722187500001,"end":699.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":699.48284375,"end":699.7022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":699.9890937499999,"end":706.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":700.0734687500001,"end":701.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":706.36784375,"end":707.1609687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":707.46471875,"end":717.6909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":713.42159375,"end":714.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":715.78409375,"end":721.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":721.67346875,"end":726.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":726.87096875,"end":726.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":726.88784375,"end":737.5359687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":727.5459687500002,"end":729.3347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":729.95909375,"end":730.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":733.4522187500002,"end":734.7009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":735.47721875,"end":742.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":738.00846875,"end":738.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":742.66596875,"end":742.7334687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":742.7334687500002,"end":744.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":743.03721875,"end":748.3528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":747.71159375,"end":748.2178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":748.3528437500001,"end":753.3815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":749.1797187500001,"end":750.4115937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":751.93034375,"end":752.5547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":753.85409375,"end":753.9722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":753.9722187500001,"end":755.96346875}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.967,"end":15.575,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進有請主席長 財政部阮市長好 請主席長 阮市長幾位長官委員好好 幾位長官好這個財化法是財政部在管還是主席總是在管"},{"start":28.768,"end":41,"text":"財務法是財政部在管嗎對 但是裡面有涉及到一些你們說昨天去找幾個地方政府的財政局長來討論結果給他感覺像過水 像糊弄一樣你說裡面營業額從20%變成8%"},{"start":52.223,"end":59.505,"text":"30%變成8%人口40.5%變成18%都減少減少 什麼地方增加什麼地方增加這個我跟委員報告這個有時候這樣講可能不太精準人家已經這樣寫媒體這樣寫 你說你要澄清是不是讓我簡單說明不要說明 你再告訴我什麼項目增加你跟我講什麼項目增加"},{"start":77.21,"end":97.735,"text":"我們現在是這樣你不要浪費我時間你告訴我什麼項目增加你現在營業額佔比也降低人口也降低什麼增加你就回到這個你不要跟我講其他的我們現在是把指標弄得更公平合理你告訴我哪一個項目增加"},{"start":98.835,"end":106.379,"text":"增加昨天這些部分當然就是每一個縣市都有不同的意見什麼項目增加你還沒有回答問題我已經講了營業額從30%降到8%這個字打錯了那人口40.5%降到18%什麼項目增加你告訴我啊你不要讓我有時間啊"},{"start":118.284,"end":135.552,"text":"比如說什麼項目增加因為昨天就這一步沒有達成共識但是我覺得有幾點很重要的你告訴我哪幾個項目增加你告訴我這一部分因為老實講沒有說所謂哪一個項目增加"},{"start":139.389,"end":154.778,"text":"沒有嘛 這就要減少難怪地方政府的我們現在就是最重要的就是我跟委員報告我們第一個 我們就是幾個有共識的不要讓我有時間啦 你不要亂說的喔所以光是這個就代表什麼意思代表"},{"start":156.67,"end":175.32,"text":"地方政府只是被告知中央只有走程序過水而已欺負地方政府就是這樣我現在告訴你才華娃你們提出來我們來講我們就堅持因為你要提出來開始打個布水平最少五年"},{"start":176.42,"end":194.653,"text":"五年啦 最少五年我們不會同意的我們只有說同意修16.3那個離島的解決馬祖的問題其他我們不會接受基本上不接受先跟你講這樣喔因為你看到現在為止什麼增加你也不講"},{"start":195.413,"end":212.735,"text":"你也講不出來所以你現在只有心目中只有看看看沒有增加不然你告訴我哪一項增加有沒有哪一項增加但是我跟委員報告昨天有很大的一個進展沒有進展啦有進展 有很大的進展第一個我們就是說第一個要優先彌補這個財政收支差短"},{"start":213.716,"end":227.214,"text":"這是第一個第二個我們搭配財源保障機制財源保障機制不是你這個都叫我歐盟席度那市長啊我就被你很失望了真的來 那個署長陳署長你要不要講一下什麼地方項目增加"},{"start":228.157,"end":247.086,"text":"有沒有項目增加的就像我們剛剛次郎說的那個我們優先米平財政休止插船那這個部分就是佔了一大塊而且是真的就像剛剛委員您提的那個基礎的項目要先確立你都減少減少你沒有跟我講增加"},{"start":248.743,"end":251.344,"text":"減少變成營業從30%變成8%人口40.5%變成18%啊什麼地方增加嘛你告訴我什麼地方增加沒有啊沒有啊來我們看下一頁好啦你既然沒有的話我就告訴你你提的版本我們絕對反對"},{"start":266.892,"end":284.968,"text":"你既然這樣講我絕對反對反對到底我們堅持現在版本除了16.3那個要改很小的改以外其他我們全部反對就這樣 像你說你不講我就反對不是我跟委員報告不要講了來我們看一個來現在來講包括主計長那個統籌分配稅款因為你的主計長"},{"start":294.056,"end":303.068,"text":"你講的喔你最後一頁你寫的喔是說藉此機制啊保障所有視線"},{"start":306.542,"end":325.323,"text":"縣市114年所獲得統總分數款一般補助款加計畫補助款三項加總比起114年只增不減這一句話是有問題的你已經講了九個縣市其實是低的不是增加的"},{"start":326.104,"end":329.885,"text":"所以現在來講 你要講 哇讚度 哇讚喔 說給了哇大方的 給了4100多億可是你沒有講 你拿回來2600多億啊所以你實際上只有給1500多億而已啊你實際上只有給1500多億啊但是你到處哇啦哇啦講 喔 我給了4000多億沒有啊 你只給1500多億啊三個加起來 來 我就問你一個問題 簡單的問題"},{"start":353.528,"end":366.894,"text":"這個以後是不是都如此都是同仇加一般加計劃一定不會比114年少夠縣市喔 夠縣市是 目前的規劃是這樣子所以目前我們有九個縣市是低於114年度嘛你已經補起來了嘛"},{"start":372.997,"end":395.513,"text":"對 還沒 所以我們這裡面我們有一項均衡補助的一個我們就會把它添補起來但是我們現在就是說因為財化法裡面還有345億沒有分配那我們等到它分配之後它整個其實又是變動的那你345億有其他的委員說要拿去給什麼"},{"start":396.974,"end":411.173,"text":"所以我們必須要看最後的一個決定立法院後面將來他還決定這345億的走向確定之後我們才能夠決定說到底差短是多少"},{"start":414.219,"end":428.855,"text":"我感謝你這句話這樣你可以不可以再承諾一遍說只要你當主席長的一天這三項永遠不會少於我們院長有同意這一個布就是子家不少是"},{"start":430.516,"end":437.12,"text":"這是行政院有承諾是這樣子所以等於是說各項補助都沒有減少三個加起來喔那如果這樣子的話我可以提個案子計劃型補助款各縣市也只加不減"},{"start":454.41,"end":468.003,"text":"計畫是沒辦法 我坦白跟你說實際上執行起來是有困難的因為為什麼 他的政客 這每一個計畫他不見得都是 他執行任務完成之後他就會停止了 就不再做了那你說維持這個額度 那這樣負責永遠橫幅"},{"start":471.767,"end":486.878,"text":"那個窮者永恆很窮那譬如說你計劃型有的是譬如說捷運它金額很大那你現在我維持它還是維持這個額度將來對一些少數沒有捷運的建設是不公平嘛所以你就砍計劃型就亂砍一通捷運就亂砍一通啊不是亂砍一通 而是把"},{"start":492.322,"end":511.921,"text":"原來縣市應辦的事項回歸給縣市自己去辦理那這樣他有更大的一個自主的權利財政部啊 財政部來 財政部你知道最近有那個加勒菸啊上市以後一天就下市 你知道吧"},{"start":513.611,"end":528.37,"text":"我常常報導裡面也看到了 國建署那邊的問題這是你的事情喔 研究管理法31條寫得很清楚你們管的主管單位就是財政部"},{"start":529.692,"end":544.906,"text":"煙酒管理經過包裝出售製造業或者進口業者要直接接觸的容器上標示尼古丁及焦油的含量這次下市就是因為沒有標尼古丁跟焦油的含量對 罰則"},{"start":547.662,"end":576.34,"text":"改正以前不得繼續銷售第二個不符合的話沒錄請問你有沒有沒錄根據法則有沒有沒錄了沒收了沒錄把那個加熱鹽沒收了聽不懂聽不懂你聽不懂我們這個案子就是我這個案子你有沒有把他沒錄啊"},{"start":577.915,"end":579.539,"text":"有沒有把他冒收 末路天母"},{"start":580.583,"end":608.86,"text":"我們已經有他要求他下架回收啦因為他沒有標示那個離股店嘛不是啦 你沒有標示你要沒入違規的菸酒要沒入就是你要沒收咧你有沒有把它收到財政部這裡面啊是目前沒有沒有啊 那就沒法啊因為他是第一次上市啊第一次就要啦 是第一次對不對不符合本法 你知道法則五十條之二喔菸酒管理法五十條之二"},{"start":609.56,"end":633.818,"text":"不符合本法標示規定的研究 沒入違規的研究所以加勒研你要沒入啊你沒有沒入啊就我們的這個研究管理法來講我們是分次來罰款如果最後他沒辦法達到我們要求目標的話我們才會沒入"},{"start":634.759,"end":656.11,"text":"那但是這個案子是針對因為它違反是陰害防治法我知道啦那這兩個法他們不管他們可是你們有法有工具可以用你要把它沒入我還跟你強調的你要改正以前不得繼續銷售然後50之二不符合的你要沒入"},{"start":657.301,"end":665.846,"text":"你們顯見的你們堵職啊你堵職啊我們研究管理 我跟你講研究管理法50次啊你有沒有處罰 我救你 我給你處罰處罰多少 處罰多少正常要罰多少"},{"start":682.27,"end":684.313,"text":"你告訴我答案我就下去了正常一般罰多少因為現在還沒有開始開罰但是我們現在的標準是100萬以上到500萬以下100萬以上500萬以下連續"},{"start":700.092,"end":726.689,"text":"連續處罰 連續處罰然後如果他還是沒有達到我們要求的話我們要求他就是要沒入什麼時候要沒入這個就要看他有沒有前面他有沒有按照我們的規定繳納不要忘了喔 大家都以為大家都以為有關於菸的部分是屬於衛福部不是的喔研究管理法明擺的事業目的主管機關是財政部"},{"start":726.969,"end":747.66,"text":"沒錯 但是我們財政部是負責菸酒的市場管理但是有關菸奶房子那一部分三四一票已經有了上面要標示你股定跟交友的容含量如果沒有標你就要處罰然後最多可以沒入100萬到500萬的處罰開始處罰對 沒錯開始處罰囉我們會依法來處理盡快喔好 謝謝好 謝謝賴司法委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":236,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（9時44分）謝謝主席以及各位先進，有請主計長、財政部阮次長。"],["主席：請主計長、阮次長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：幾位長官好。財劃法是財政部在管，還是主計總處在管？"],["阮次長清華：財劃法……"],["賴委員士葆：是財政部在管嘛！"],["阮次長清華：對，但是裡面有涉及到一些……"],["賴委員士葆：院版的部分你們說昨天有找各地方政府的財政局長來討論了，但讓我感覺像過水、像糊弄一樣，營業額占比從30%變成8%，人口從40.5%變成18%，都是減少，那什麼地方增加？這是機密嗎？"],["阮次長清華：我跟委員報告，有時候這個這樣講可能不太精準……"],["賴委員士葆：媒體已經這樣寫了，你說你要澄清啊！"],["阮次長清華：是不是讓我簡單說明一下？"],["賴委員士葆：不要說明，你就告訴我什麼項目增加，你跟我講什麼項目增加？"],["阮次長清華：我們現在是這樣，讓我簡單……"],["賴委員士葆：你不要浪費我的時間，你告訴我什麼項目增加？現在營業額占比也降低，人口也降低，什麼增加嘛？你就回答我這個，你不要跟我講其他的。"],["阮次長清華：我們現在是把指標弄得更公平、合理。"],["賴委員士葆：聽不懂啦，你告訴我哪一個項目增加啦！"],["阮次長清華：昨天就這部分當然每一個縣市會有不同的意見，因為這個涉及到……"],["賴委員士葆：什麼項目增加？你還沒有回答我的問題，我已經講了，營業額從30%降到8%，人口從40.5%降到18%，什麼項目增加？你告訴我啊！你不要浪費我的時間。"],["阮次長清華：對啦……"],["賴委員士葆：比如說什麼項目增加？"],["阮次長清華：因為昨天就這部分沒有達成共識……"],["賴委員士葆：什麼增加啊？"],["阮次長清華：沒有達成共識，但是我覺得有幾點很重要的……"],["賴委員士葆：我不要聽這個，你告訴我哪幾個項目增加？你告訴我。"],["阮次長清華：這一部分，老實講，沒有說所謂哪一個……"],["賴委員士葆：哪一個項目增加？沒有嘛！就只有減少，難怪地方政府的……"],["阮次長清華：我們現在最重要的就是，我跟委員報告，第一個，我們就幾個有共識……"],["賴委員士葆：不要浪費我的時間啦！你不要「黑龍繞桌」。所以光是這個就代表什麼意思？代表地方政府只是被告知，中央只有走程序過水而已，欺負地方政府，就是這樣。我現在告訴你，財劃法你們提出來，我們來講，我們就堅持，因為你要提出來大家討論水平分配等等，最少五年，我們不會同意的，我們只有同意修第十六條之一第三項有關離島的部分，解決馬祖的問題，其他我們不會接受，基本上不接受，先跟你這樣講。因為你看，到現在為止什麼增加你也不講，你也講不出來，所以你現在心目中只有砍、砍、砍，沒有增加，不然你告訴我哪一項增加，有沒有哪一項增加？"],["阮次長清華：但是我跟委員報告，昨天有一個很大的進展……"],["賴委員士葆：沒有進展。"],["阮次長清華：有進展，有很大的進展，第一個，我們就是要優先弭平財政收支差短；第二個，我們要搭配財源保障機制……"],["賴委員士葆：聽不懂啦！你這個叫做「黑龍繞桌」，次長，我對你很失望，真的。陳署長，你要不要講一下什麼項目增加？有沒有項目是增加的？還是不知道？"],["陳署長柏誠：就像我們次長剛剛說的，我們優先弭平財政收支差短，這個部分就占了一大塊，而且真的就像剛剛委員您提的，支出的項目要先確立……"],["賴委員士葆：我不要聽，你亂講一通，你都是減少、減少，你沒有跟我講增加啊！營業額從30%變成8%，人口從40.5%變成18%，那什麼地方增加嘛？你告訴我什麼地方增加？沒有啊！"],["阮次長清華：我覺得目前的新制……"],["賴委員士葆：沒有啊！好啦！既然沒有的話，我就告訴你，你提的版本我們絕對反對，你既然這樣講，我絕對反對，反對到底，我們堅持現在的版本，除了第十六條之一第三項那部分要做很小的改動以外，其他我們全部反對，就這樣，先跟你講，你不講，我就反對。"],["阮次長清華：不是，我跟委員報告……"],["賴委員士葆：不要講了。現在換主計長，主計長，這是你講的，你的最後一頁寫的，藉此機制保障所有市縣115年度所獲配之統籌分配稅款、一般性補助款及計畫型補助款三項加總，比起114年度只增不減。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["賴委員士葆：這一句話是有問題的，你已經講了，9個縣市其實是低的，不是增加的，所以現在你又講多讚又多讚、給得多大方，給了四千一百多億，可是你沒有講你拿回來兩千六百多億，所以你實際上只有給一千五百多億而已，但是你到處哇啦哇啦講，說你給了四千多億，沒有啊！三個加起來你只給一千五百多億啊！我就問你一個簡單的問題，這個以後是不是都如此，都是統籌加一般加計畫，一定不會比114年少？各縣市喔！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是、是，目前的規劃……"],["賴委員士葆：確定喔？"],["陳主計長淑姿：目前的規劃是這樣子。"],["賴委員士葆：那能不能再……"],["陳主計長淑姿：所以目前我們有9個縣市是低於114年度嘛……"],["賴委員士葆：你已經補起來了嘛？"],["陳主計長淑姿：還沒，所以我們這裡面……"],["賴委員士葆：你補好了沒有？補好了沒有？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們有一項均衡補助的一個……"],["賴委員士葆：你補了沒有？補了沒有？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們就會把它添補起來，但是我們現在就是說……"],["賴委員士葆：什麼時候可以補起來？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為財劃法裡面還有345億沒有分配，我們等到它分配之後，它整個其實又是變動的……"],["賴委員士葆：你這345億有其他的委員說要拿去給什麼……"],["陳主計長淑姿：所以我們必須要看最後的決定嘛，立法院將來決定這345億的走向，確定之後，我們才能夠決定到底差短是多少，估算……"],["賴委員士葆：你這一句話，我感謝你說這一句話，你可不可以再承諾一遍，說只要你當主計長的一天，這三項永遠不會少於……"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們院長有同意這個部分，就是只加不少，行政院有承諾是這樣。"],["賴委員士葆：不僅116年一樣，我是說只要你當主計長的一天都是這樣子，就是三項只加不少。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，所以等於是說各項補助都沒有減少……"],["賴委員士葆：三個加起來喔？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，三個加起來。"],["賴委員士葆：三個加起來喔！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是、是。"],["賴委員士葆：那如果這樣子的話，我可以提個案子，就是計畫型補助款各縣市也只加不減。"],["陳主計長淑姿：計畫型沒辦法，我坦白跟你說，實際上執行起來是有困難的。"],["賴委員士葆：可是你這樣說啊，你這樣說的耶！你自己講的啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為每一個計畫不見得都是……執行任務完成之後，它就會停止了，就不再做了，你說維持這個額度，那這樣富者永遠恆富，窮者永遠恆窮。計畫型補助，譬如說捷運，它的金額很大，如果現在我還是維持它這個額度，將來對一些少數沒有捷運的縣市是不公平的嘛！"],["賴委員士葆：所以你就砍計畫型，就亂砍一通，捷運就亂砍一通啊！就變這樣子啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是亂砍一通，而是把原來縣市一般的事項回歸給……"],["賴委員士葆：你把臺北市的捷運就砍了60億啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：回歸給縣市自己去辦理，這樣他有更大的自主權力，所以……"],["賴委員士葆：來，財政部，你知道最近加熱菸上市以後一天就下市，你知道吧？"],["阮次長清華：我從報導裡面看到了，因為國健署那邊的問題。"],["賴委員士葆：好。這是你的事情喔！菸酒管理法第三十一條寫得很清楚，你們管的喔，主管單位就是財政部，菸酒管理，經過包裝出售，製造業或者進口業者要在直接接觸菸的容器上標示尼古丁及焦油的含量，這次下市就是因為沒有標尼古丁跟焦油的含量，罰則，改正以前不得繼續銷售；第二個，不符合的話，沒入。請問你有沒有沒入？"],["阮次長清華：有沒有怎樣？"],["賴委員士葆：根據罰則，有沒有沒入啦？沒收啦！"],["阮次長清華：有沒有……"],["賴委員士葆：沒入，把那個加熱菸沒收啦。","聽不懂？聽不懂，你聽不懂。"],["阮次長清華：所以我們這個案子就是說因為它……"],["賴委員士葆：你有沒有把它沒入啦！有沒有把它沒收？沒入聽不懂？"],["阮次長清華：我們已經有要求下架回收了，因為它沒有標示尼古丁含量嘛！"],["賴委員士葆：不是啊！沒有標示你要沒入違規的菸酒，要沒入就是你要沒收耶，你有沒有把它收到財政部裡面啦？"],["阮次長清華：是，目前沒有，因為我們就是先下架……"],["賴委員士葆：沒有啊！那你就是違法啊！"],["阮次長清華：因為它是第一次上市。"],["賴委員士葆：第一次就要啦！什麼是第一次，對不對？菸酒管理法第五十條第二項明定，不符合本法標示規定的違規菸酒要沒入，所以加熱菸你要沒入啊！你沒有沒入啊。"],["阮次長清華：我跟委員報告，就菸酒管理法來講，我們是分次來罰款，如果最後它沒辦法達到我們要求目標的話，我們才會沒入。但是這個案子，因為它違反的是菸害防制法……"],["賴委員士葆：我知道啦！這兩個法，他們衛福部管他們的，可是你們有法、有工具可以用，你要把它沒入，我一再跟你強調的，改正以前不得繼續銷售，然後第五十條第二項規定，不符合的你要沒入，顯見你們瀆職啊！你瀆職啊！"],["阮次長清華：這個沒入是菸害防制法規定的……"],["賴委員士葆：不、不、不，菸酒管理法，我跟你講菸酒管理法第五十條第二項……"],["阮次長清華：我們菸酒管理法它有先期的規定，要先逐案處罰……"],["賴委員士葆：你有沒有處罰？我就問你有沒有處罰？"],["阮次長清華：我們會處罰，這個我們會去處理。"],["賴委員士葆：處罰多少？處罰多少？你要講清楚。"],["阮次長清華：因為是最近才發生的案子，我們現在還在作業當中。"],["賴委員士葆：正常要罰多少？"],["阮次長清華：這個現在還……"],["賴委員士葆：你告訴我答案，我就下去了，正常一般罰多少嘛？"],["阮次長清華：因為現在還沒有開始開罰嘛……"],["賴委員士葆：什麼還沒有開始開罰，都已經下架了，怎麼還沒開始開罰？"],["阮次長清華：但是我們現在的標準是100萬以上到500萬以下。"],["賴委員士葆：100萬以上500萬以下，連續得連罰？"],["阮次長清華：可以連續處罰，然後如果還是沒有達到我們的要求的話，就是要沒入。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼時候要沒入？"],["阮次長清華：這個就要看它前面有沒有按照我們的規定繳納相關的罰鍰，有沒有改正它的標示……"],["賴委員士葆：不要忘了，大家都以為有關於菸的部分是屬於衛福部，不是的喔，菸酒管理法明擺的事業目的主管機關是財政部，你有工具的。"],["阮次長清華：沒錯，我們財政部是負責菸酒的市場管理，但是有關菸害防制那一部分……"],["賴委員士葆：不只市場管理，第三十一條已經明定上面要標示尼古丁跟焦油的含量，如果沒有標，你就要處罰，然後最多可以沒入。100萬到500萬的處罰開始處罰了？開始處罰了喔？"],["阮次長清華：是，對，沒錯。我們會依法來處理，會依法來處理。"],["賴委員士葆：儘快喔。"],["阮次長清華：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝賴士葆委員。","接下來我們請郭國文委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":398,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-3","speakers":["林思銘","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","李坤城","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","羅明才","王世堅","張啓楷","洪孟楷","陳玉珍","楊瓊瓔","高金素梅","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":333,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148701_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處、財政部就「中央對直轄市及縣（市）政府補助辦法修正後，一般性補助款\n審查與評比基準、財務計畫檢核基礎、撥款方式等規範及作業程序為何？修改財力級次計算公式\n之合理性及對各縣市補助款影響為何？計畫型補助款範圍與業務定義？對各縣市未來整體財政補\n助金額之影響」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148701_00014"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}