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請阿滾部長好 部長張委員好 滾部長奈清德總統在4天前就是10月18號他在為小水利發電產業發展論壇的時候 自此他講到說"},{"start":57.316,"end":84.347,"text":"政府已經在2022年公布的2050年淨零排放政策路徑藍圖他已經提出了包括小水利他說作為前瞻能源等12項關鍵戰略在2030年之前要投入9000億結果這段時間很多專家學者到我辦公室來工有嗎"},{"start":86.507,"end":96.295,"text":"這個你們經濟部核定的前瞻能言12項關鍵戰略2025年淨零排碳的這個路徑南途有包括小水利嗎"},{"start":98.68,"end":121.331,"text":"多元的多元的多元的那個能源開發其中有一項是小水利沒有錯這也是很多委員有關心的希望的你在你在你的12項關鍵戰略這個每一個都是核定本都是你經濟部核定的就是在前瞻能源這個第三項他前瞻能源裡面有很多包括氫能前瞻能源來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來"},{"start":126.073,"end":155.137,"text":"我有印你們拿給我看這前瞻能源第三項裡面哪一個有講到小水利你們講到三項來來來第一項是風電跟光電對不對第二項是氫能嘛第三個就是部長你現在講的前瞻能源對它是滾動式的只要有新的包括地熱也好或是其他的能源甚至於是波浪的能源都涵蓋在這個前瞻能源裡面這是剛剛印下來的有嗎你的滾動你有去改嗎"},{"start":156.673,"end":185.637,"text":"這裡面牽扯到兩個很嚴重啦你現在給我看第三個你剛講的來 部長你講的第三個是什麼前瞻啦前瞻能源它裡面講的是什麼地熱發電生殖能跟海洋能嘛你對著你眼睛看到看到小水電小水電沒有嘛 到目前來你給我看在哪裡這裡面牽扯一個啦如果有機會我們就把它加入聽我講這裡面牽扯到兩個很嚴重的第一個總統不能夠信口開河你沒有東西"},{"start":187.418,"end":210.104,"text":"你去論壇你對著講 所以專家寫者很認真他們就來問我辦公室說 委員我們找了老半天找不到小水利那不會覺得 總統為什麼他都沒有清楚的看清楚內容我也在那寫一半天寫不完 我今天還特別把這個帶來喔對不對到目前都沒有這不就變成一個信口開河的總統你要這樣下去就變總統變來偶校長對不對"},{"start":213.499,"end":223.902,"text":"小水利是有一個已經公布了一個短售價格是支持而且鼓勵的我請那個署長講一下現在在講的是現在講的是總統在這個論壇講他在2050年的淨零排碳政策藍圖還有12項的淨零關鍵戰略裡面"},{"start":231.26,"end":244.489,"text":"找不到小水利嘛結果總統去論壇裡面講這不是變成信國開河嗎不是這樣子小水利本來就是我們水利發電其中的一項在這裡面 在總統講的這裡面有沒有 你放給我看嘛有小水利的 有嗎"},{"start":245.382,"end":259.318,"text":"消血力本來就在我們政府的政策裡面總統說在慶齡十二項關鍵戰略裡面有嗎這個是你們軍機部的核定版就是在前瞻能源裡面前瞻能源包括非常多"},{"start":262.323,"end":288.195,"text":"我印了剛剛你講的那個你等一下翻出來 任何一個小水利的字給我 你兩個眼睛可以看得到不是 前瞻能源它是一個概括性的一個說法 只要是前瞻的 它屬於能源的事實上滾動式的檢查都會納在裡面而且經濟部基本上也對小水利有提供的短壽價格已經列出來了你政府的功能特別經濟部 這每一個都是你的核定思維光是第一項風電跟光電"},{"start":293.204,"end":306.396,"text":"你光是第一項12個大項裡面的第一項就有27頁喔你講的第三項裡面連一個字小水利都沒有你先不要硬拗了我現在只要提醒你總統講話不能夠信口開河要不然就變哪有校長"},{"start":307.045,"end":330.922,"text":"阿你們第二個 他已經講了你們趕快跟上去把小水利這個計畫把它做好我今天看你的計畫我們會做好 我們會做好那個部長我今天看你的施政報告阿你的這個業務報告阿講小水利也只有六行四阿你們趕快跟上去啦好不好一個請總統不要信口開河第二個他沒有信口開河他也知道小水利是我們重要的能源政策這為什麼27月你要推動光電 風電"},{"start":332.796,"end":359.965,"text":"你的目標是什麼你的短期中長期的計劃是什麼小水利後來的績效是什麼這個每一項都有沒有計劃現在不是新國開學說過我要推小水利這個東西完全一個字都沒有好不好這是一個好來第二個我們來談一下最近光電板出了很多的問題為了光電板要回收能源署回應說啊"},{"start":360.843,"end":378.794,"text":"獲蓄每年已經要的追繳已經達到九成了也在去年修罰最高可以開罰150萬目前條例等待三讀這個跟剛剛那個一樣 我也在那裡找幾句沒有你們的法案在哪裡 條例在哪裡"},{"start":380.066,"end":402.279,"text":"報告委員 這個所謂事成沒有繳納的我們都去吹繳了那如果時間到的話我們就會移送強制執行那所以這個比例其實市長 我在問你說你跟我們說你跟全國民眾跟立法院說你的修法 你甩鍋給立法院啊是啊我說我這查不到你的東西 你的條例在哪裡啦你們有這個條例嗎甘有"},{"start":405.963,"end":423.848,"text":"這個原來就是那個再生能源發展條例裡面他可以做處罰但是他當時沒有特別對吹角他有罰則嘛 對不對所以你要修法嘛他有罰則啊你這個寫的意思就是說你去修法送到立法院躺在立法院立法院等待三讀啊我得所有專家寫者跟我的辦公室去找"},{"start":424.608,"end":445.569,"text":"阿你就沒修法你怎麼可以這樣講他不是修法你這不是嫁禍跟甩鍋給立法院而且這嚴重傷害你經濟部的公信力欸報告好報告委員他那個可能我們用的文字他是修那個辦法特別把這一個行為納入辦法要送到立法院刪賭嗎那不是修修定辦法要送到立法院刪賭嗎你講的條例在哪裡啦你送到立法院的條例在哪裡有嗎"},{"start":450.669,"end":473.524,"text":"你去把它弄清楚對我們來修正用語是修辦法那你真的有條例的話也趕快送來不要說你已經送到立法院來這不要變成真的修正話甩鍋給立法院嗎委員我們看一下你這個文字是哪裡來的因為他這個文字用的這個是我看是一個新聞發布我在想他用的文字可能不是精準我們的文字"},{"start":475.447,"end":503.383,"text":"这是公式的报道这个不是只有这是公式的报道这是一个新闻报道我看它这里面的文字第一个我明确知道不对的就是有四层位角绝对没有那么但是有位角的我们都已经吹角了另外我们要修的是管理的办法也不是母法那所以我是觉得这一则新闻事实上可能不是市长你打脸的不是新闻这个是新闻报道是有画面的你打脸是你的能言鼠耶"},{"start":504.335,"end":531.92,"text":"報告我們沒有這種這個訊息是不對的這是公視的報導欸你打臉是記者人員數欸沒關係我們在把它查清楚更重要的要解決問題啦第二個不要當初我們有發新聞稿的話我們會有新聞稿的不要甩鍋給那個立法院啦更重要你是個公信力的經濟部不要變成造謠的經濟部來好我們來看一下保定你13號啊你有吹哨者來檢舉說光電板的這個"},{"start":535.612,"end":559.259,"text":"在戰事區台湯土地上面沒有 你連收三次喔我說你目前處理好嗎 你說處理好啊我說是在戰事區喔因為卻要講得清清楚楚喔你還回答我說清楚了我說你是戰事上面還清楚 你還說第三次講說清楚了我去看來 我跟你看結果很可惡的是 你在16號你還發了新聞稿誤導民眾 來我給你看真正的真相是什麼 來"},{"start":562.282,"end":588.641,"text":"這個就是荷包魚 滯洪指定名台塘戰事區勒眼睛應該沒有業障那麼重吧看得到上面是什麼吧那個是堆滿那個浮板這個 這個我們來確認一下這個應該已經清理完畢了但是我們知道我們在九月在你發新聞稿的當天石碇化還在那裡啊我們這樣子 我們在九月十五不要硬拗啦 不要硬拗 我都已經去看過了來 我再給你看後面的來 各個來"},{"start":591.79,"end":617.744,"text":"18號跟19號來我現在跟你講更重要的不是只有台塘那個站制區沒有清完我去18號跟19號我在新溫的制風池看到什麼路口旁邊馬路上喔馬路旁邊你就看得到了還有破碎的光電板我拿給大家看有沒有我手上抓的那個是破碎的光電板然後呢在那個制風池的上面漂浮的浮板像小船一樣"},{"start":619.059,"end":629.616,"text":"一、二十隻小船在那邊飄你除非你故意看不到或者像王世堅講的睜眼收瞎話沒出息連滾帶爬才會連這個東西都看不到"},{"start":630.576,"end":653.977,"text":"這個委員你不了解 你這個照片用過好多次 我說明一下什麼好多次 這是在阿門裡對不對你也承認這是問題 什麼叫好多次不要一直亂講話好不好 市長精準地講因為我們9月7號已經清理完畢但是後來因為有雨水沖刷 或有一些漂流出來的我們要求業者他還要定期巡檢去檢實那檢實之後他會先把它堆置起來"},{"start":654.457,"end":669.786,"text":"那至於上面有浮板好幾片市長那麼大一個你看它像小船一樣那是很重的你隨便飄一下十幾片的這個浮板全部都飄出來那個是它未來要重新你這個完全不合邏輯這硬拗的那是定位點因為它未來要重新那你是怎麼當初去選不選對了"},{"start":671.127,"end":692.703,"text":"那麼大一個東西你說是隨時又飄出來是不是過幾天又飄一二十隻小船出來照片裡面水上的那個是葉子的定位點因為它未來要重新復原的時候它必須要把它留幾個地方再定位它這樣子未來施工的時候可以不必重新定位市長最重要的經濟部是一個講話很有公信力的部會"},{"start":694.145,"end":719.202,"text":"結果你一湊再湊你不只在這邊講了跟事實不一樣的我看的都是有圖有真相 你看我是特別跑去現場看喔我還特別在19號為什麼用了那張報紙國民黨黨主席18號選出來黨主席鄭麗文19號我是想去看你看那個地面上整片的光電板光電模組整片在那邊自模組上面是有回版右邊來來來 我跟你講右下角這個是什麼"},{"start":721.303,"end":742.882,"text":"阿陸續雨水沖刷有露出來所以我們每天都會派這個業者去巡檢如果有發現他們就會把他收起來暫時堆置在旁邊所以你就不要發新聞搞什麼你已經清完嘛如果這麼容易對不對阿光電板這麼脆弱一下沖刷就會跑出來那是因為它會沖刷或是水位變化有的是它會不斷的我們會不斷的去巡檢它部長我堅持要跟你講"},{"start":743.763,"end":765.831,"text":"我今天也沒有要你道歉 我現在要講一個很重要政府是有公信力的 當民眾不是 我跟你講喔 最近喔 最近委員如果再問問題 詢 那你們聽一下 才有辦法回答你不要兩個都講 這樣子大家不要聽誰的 好嗎大家互相尊重 來請繼續"},{"start":768.288,"end":793.563,"text":"部長 我今天沒有要你道歉我今天要講的是政府的公信力我說你不要讓民眾一般的媒體去採訪發現的問題聯合報去追蹤了90天他說在10月初 到了10月初的時候 第90天還有很多地方就是像齊凱去看的這個我是在19號 18號又去看又是一堆問題那一般的嘉義的民眾或者是全國民眾你只要這段時間經過新聞的這個光電池這個制風池"},{"start":797.13,"end":825.784,"text":"你經過新莊了來我再給你看一個畫面下一個連嘉義縣政府你們發新聞稿16號對不對17號嘉義縣政府還去打臉你們還開牌我們可以講我今天不是要你道歉我現在是說第一個我們那個博定今天最重要的不要睜眼收銷讓民眾因為民眾會覺得說我過去看我看都有看到還是經濟部好那因為時間的關係好OK我們先到了啦我現在要兩個東西啦第一個"},{"start":826.964,"end":835.253,"text":"確定去把它清除完畢好不好清了我們會再清嘛剛剛署長第一個要求一定要把它清乾淨第二個你的新聞稿出現問題趕快去更正我們會持續清你說你清完了嘛一個禮拜給我一份報告為什麼民眾都看到有問題為什麼你一直講說清完好不好"},{"start":846.003,"end":867.98,"text":"確定不要再污染不要再污染台灣的這個土地好不好好 謝謝那那個部長喔因為委員大家都關心我知道其實大家都希望社會不要有疑慮所以呢如果你的媒體認為你是你認為是有誤的你們要想辦法去理清楚好不好這才是我們尋答最重要的重點嘛謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":188,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（9時44分）謝謝主席，請龔部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["龔部長明鑫：張委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：龔部長，賴清德總統在4天前，也就是10月18號，他在為小水力發電產業發展論壇致詞的時候講到，政府已經在2022年公布「2050年淨零排放政策路徑藍圖」，提出包括小水力作為前瞻能源等12項關鍵戰略，並在2030年前要投入9,000億。結果這段時間很多專家學者到我辦公室來講，有嗎？經濟部核定的前瞻能源12項關鍵戰略，2025年淨零排放路徑藍圖有包括小水力嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：是，那個是多元的能源開發，其中有一項是小水力沒有錯，這也是很多委員所關心的、希望的。"],["張委員啓楷：有嗎？這12項關鍵戰略，每一個都是核定本，都是經濟部核定的喔！"],["龔部長明鑫：就是在第3項的前瞻能源，前瞻能源裡面有很多，包括氫能……不是……"],["張委員啓楷：前瞻能源……我這裡有印……"],["龔部長明鑫：沼氣……"],["張委員啓楷：時間暫停一下，我有印，你們拿給我看，在第3項前瞻能源裡面，哪一個有講到小水力？你們講到第3項，第1項是風電跟光電，第2項是氫能，第3項就是部長現在說的……"],["龔部長明鑫：前瞻能源。"],["張委員啓楷：前瞻能源……"],["龔部長明鑫：對，它是滾動式的，只要有新的，包括地熱或是其他的能源，甚至波浪的能源都涵蓋在所謂的前瞻能源裡面。"],["張委員啓楷：對啊！這是剛剛印下來的，有嗎？你說是滾動，你們有去改嗎？這裡面牽扯到兩個很嚴重的部分，第一個……你來翻給我看，第3項是你剛剛講的，部長，你講的第3項是什麼？前瞻能源裡面講的是什麼？地熱發電……"],["龔部長明鑫：地熱，對。"],["張委員啓楷：生質能跟海洋能。"],["龔部長明鑫：生質能、海洋能，對。"],["張委員啓楷：你哪一隻眼睛看到小水力？"],["龔部長明鑫：沒有啦！那個是滾動式的檢討，所以有機會我們都會加入。"],["張委員啓楷：就是沒有嘛！你翻給我看，在哪裡？這裡面牽扯到……"],["龔部長明鑫：如果有機會，我們就把它加入。"],["張委員啓楷：你聽我講，這裡面牽扯到兩個很嚴重的，第一個，總統不能夠信口開河，沒有的東西，他去論壇對著大家講，專家學者很認真耶！他們就來我辦公室問我說，委員，我們找了老半天，找不到小水力，總統為什麼都沒有看清楚內容？我也在那邊翻半天，也翻不到，我今天還特別把這個帶來喔！到目前都沒有，這不就變成一個信口開河的總統嗎？這樣下去總統就變成萊爾校長了，對不對？"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，小水力已經公布了一個躉售價格，是支持而且鼓勵的，我請署長講一下。"],["張委員啓楷：現在講的是總統在論壇上講的，在2050年淨零排放政策路徑藍圖的12項關鍵戰略裡面找不到小水力，結果總統去論壇裡面講，這不就變成信口開河嗎？"],["李署長君禮：不是這樣子的，小水力本來就是水力發電的其中一項，而且我們有訂收購目標。"],["張委員啓楷：在總統講的這裡面有沒有？你翻給我看嘛！有小水力嗎？"],["李署長君禮：小水力本來就在政府的政策裡面，12項……"],["張委員啓楷：總統說在淨零的12項關鍵戰略裡面，有嗎？這個是經濟部的核定版耶！"],["龔部長明鑫：就是在前瞻能源裡面，只是……"],["李署長君禮：報告委員，前瞻能源包括非常多。"],["張委員啓楷：時間暫停，部長，我印了你剛剛講的那個，你等一下翻出來任何一個有小水力的字給我，你哪個眼睛可以看得到？"],["龔部長明鑫：不是，前瞻能源是一個概括性的說法，只要是前瞻的、屬於能源的，事實上滾動式的檢討都會納在裡面，而且經濟部基本上也對小水力提供的躉售價格已經列出來了。"],["張委員啓楷：在政府的功能裡面，特別是經濟部，這每一個都是你們的核定版，光是第1項，風電跟光電就有27頁耶！光是12大項裡面的第1項就有27頁，你講的第3項裡面，連一個小水力的字都沒有，你先不要硬拗啦！我現在只是要提醒你，總統講話不能夠信口開河，要不然就變成萊爾校長。第二個，他已經講了，你們趕快跟上去，把小水力這個計畫做好。我今天看你們的計畫……"],["龔部長明鑫：我們會做好。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我今天看你的業務報告，講小水力也只有6行字，你們趕快跟上去，好不好？第一個，請總統不要信口開河。第二個，他既然已經……"],["龔部長明鑫：他沒有信口開河，他也知道小水力是我們重要的能源政策。"],["張委員啓楷：這為什麼有27頁？你要推動光電、風電，你的目標是什麼？你的短期、中長期的計畫是什麼，還有後來的績效是什麼？這個每一項都有耶！"],["龔部長明鑫：小水力我們也有計畫。"],["張委員啓楷：現在不是信口開河說一下，說我要推小水力，結果這個東西完全一個字都沒有，好不好？這是一個。第二個，我們來談一下，最近光電板出了很多的問題，為了回收光電板，能源署回應後續每年的追繳已經達到九成了，也在去年修法最高可以開罰150萬，目前條例等待三讀。這個跟剛剛那個一樣，我也找了老半天，你們的法案在哪裡、條例在哪裡？"],["李署長君禮：報告委員，所謂四成沒有繳納的，我們都去催繳了，如果時間到的話我們就會移送強制執行，所以這個比例其實……"],["張委員啓楷：署長，我在問你，你在跟我們全國民眾和立法院說你的修法，你甩鍋給立法院啊！我說我都查不到，你的東西、你的條例在哪裡？你們有這個條例嗎？有嗎？"],["李署長君禮：這個原來就是在再生能源發展條例裡面，它可以做處罰，但是它當時沒有特別對催繳……"],["張委員啓楷：它沒有罰則，對不對？所以你要修法嘛。"],["李署長君禮：它有罰則。"],["張委員啓楷：你這個寫的意思就是你已經修法送到立法院、躺在立法院，等待立法院三讀，所有專家學者跟我的辦公室去找，你就沒修法，你怎麼可以這樣講？"],["李署長君禮：它不是修法，它是……"],["張委員啓楷：你這樣不是嫁禍跟甩鍋給立法院嗎？而且這樣嚴重傷害你經濟部的公信力耶！"],["李署長君禮：報告委員，它是修辦法，特別把這個行為納入，不是修母法。"],["張委員啓楷：署長，辦法要送到立法院三讀嗎？你講的條例在哪裡？你送到立法院的條例在哪裡？有嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：我們可能來……"],["張委員啓楷：你去把它弄清楚。"],["龔部長明鑫：對，我們來修正用語，是修辦法。"],["張委員啓楷：修辦法？"],["龔部長明鑫：對，修辦法。"],["張委員啓楷：你真的有條例的話也趕快送來。"],["龔部長明鑫：好。"],["張委員啓楷：不要說你已經送到立法院了，不要變成睜眼說瞎話，要甩鍋給立法院嗎？"],["李署長君禮：委員，我們看一下你這個文字是哪裡來的，因為它這個文字用的……"],["張委員啓楷：能源署說的。"],["李署長君禮：我看這是一則新聞發布，我在想它用的文字可能不是精準使用我們的文字，因為這是……"],["張委員啓楷：這是公視的報導，公共電視耶！"],["李署長君禮：所以這是一個新聞報導，我看它這裡面的文字。第一個，我明確知道不對的就是有四成未繳，絕對沒有，但是未繳的我們都已經催繳了。另外，我們要修的是管理的辦法，也不是母法，所以我覺得這一則新聞事實上可能不是正確的。"],["張委員啓楷：署長，你打臉的不是新聞，這個新聞報導是有畫面的，你打臉的是你能源署耶！"],["李署長君禮：報告，我們沒有這種文字，這個訊息是不對的。"],["張委員啓楷：這是有畫面的，這個不是一個文字，這是公視的報導，你打臉的是你們自己能源署耶！"],["龔部長明鑫：沒關係，我們再查清楚、確認一下。"],["張委員啓楷：把它查清楚，更重要的是要解決問題。第二個不要……"],["龔部長明鑫：如果當初我們有發新聞稿的話，我們會有新聞稿……"],["張委員啓楷：不要甩鍋，不要甩鍋給立法院啦！"],["龔部長明鑫：來對照一下這則新聞報導。"],["張委員啓楷：更重要的，你是有公信力的經濟部，不要變成造謠的經濟部。","好，我們來看一下，部長，13號有吹哨者檢舉光電板在台糖土地暫置區上面，你連說三次沒有，我問你目前處理好了嗎？你說處理好了。"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["張委員啓楷：我說是在暫置區，因為吹哨者講得清清楚楚，你還回答我說清走了，我說是暫置區上面的要清走，你還講第三次說清走了。"],["龔部長明鑫：對，同仁給我的訊息是這樣。"],["張委員啓楷：來，我給你看，結果很可惡的是你在16號還發了新聞稿誤導民眾。來，我給你看真正的真相是什麼，這個就是荷苞嶼滯洪池上面的台糖暫置區，眼睛業障應該沒有那麼重吧？看得到上面是什麼吧？那邊堆滿了浮板。"],["李署長君禮：我們來確認一下，這個應該已經清理完畢了，但是我們知道在9月……"],["張委員啓楷：在你發新聞稿的當天，16號還在那裡啊！"],["李署長君禮：是，我們這樣講，我們在9月15日……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，不要硬拗啦！我都已經去看過了。來，我再給你看後面的。"],["李署長君禮：是，我要特別說明……"],["張委員啓楷：來，我現在先跟你講，更重要的，不是只有台糖的暫置區沒有清完，18號跟19號我在新塭的滯洪池看到什麼？在路口旁邊、馬路旁邊你就看得到了，還有破碎的光電板，我拿給大家看，有沒有？我手上抓的那個就是破碎的光電板，然後在那個滯洪池的上面漂浮著浮板，像小船一樣，一、二十艘小船在那邊漂，除非你故意看不到或者像王世堅講的：「睜眼說瞎話，沒出息，連滾帶爬」……"],["李署長君禮：不是這樣，因為我們是……"],["張委員啓楷：才會連這個東西都看不到！"],["李署長君禮：委員，這個你不了解，你這個照片用過好多次，我說明一下，這個我們是……"],["張委員啓楷：什麼好多次！我在這邊問過你，對不對？你也承認這是問題，什麼叫好多次？不要一直亂講話好不好？署長，精準的講。"],["李署長君禮：委員，我要說明，因為我們9月7號已經清理完畢，但是後來因為有雨水沖刷，會有一些漂流出來的，我們要求業者還要定期巡檢、去撿拾，他撿拾之後會先把它堆置起來。至於上面有好幾片浮板……"],["張委員啓楷：署長，那麼大一個，你看，它像小船一樣，那是很重的，隨便漂一下，十幾片的浮板全部都漂出來啊！"],["李署長君禮：那個是它未來要重新……"],["張委員啓楷：你這個完全不合邏輯，是硬拗的。"],["李署長君禮：那是定位點，因為它未來要重新復原……"],["張委員啓楷：你為什麼當初去巡沒巡到？那麼大的一個東西，你說是又漂出來的，是不是過幾天又會漂一、二十艘小船出來？"],["李署長君禮：不是，照片裡面水上的是業者的定位點，因為它未來要重新復原的時候，必須要留幾個地方再定位，這樣它未來施工的時候可以不必重新定位。"],["張委員啓楷：署長，最重要的，經濟部是一個講話很有公信力的部會，結果你一錯再錯，你在這邊講的跟事實是不一樣的。"],["龔部長明鑫：不會啊，我覺得署長講的很清楚啊！"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我給你看，我說的都是有圖有真相，你看，我是特別跑去現場看喔！我還特別在19號去，為什麼用了那張報紙？國民黨18號選出黨主席鄭麗文，19號我是真的有去看。你看，那個地面上整片的光電板，一個光電模組整片在那邊，滯洪池上面是有浮板的，右邊……"],["李署長君禮：報告委員，因為當時是風災……"],["張委員啓楷：我跟你講右下角這個是什麼。"],["李署長君禮：它陸續經過雨水沖刷有露出來，所以我們每天都會派業者去巡檢，如果有發現，他們就會把它收起來，暫時堆置在旁邊。"],["張委員啓楷：所以你就不要發新聞稿說你已經清完了，如果這麼容易，對不對？光電板有這麼脆弱？一經沖刷，就會再跑出來？"],["李署長君禮：那是因為沖刷或是水位變化，有的時候它會不斷地……我們會不斷地去巡檢。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我堅持要跟你講，我今天也沒有要你道歉，我現在講一個很重要的，我們政府是有公信力的……"],["龔部長明鑫：清了以後會再清。"],["張委員啓楷：當民眾不是……"],["龔部長明鑫：署長講的我都了解。"],["張委員啓楷：我跟你講，最近……我在問問題的時候，你不要插話。"],["主席（楊委員瓊瓔）：部長、委員，暫停一下。委員如果在問問題、詢，你們聽一下才有辦法回答，不要兩個都同時講，這樣子大家不知道要聽誰的，好嗎？大家互相尊重。"],["龔部長明鑫：有、有、有，我們一直都有。"],["主席：請繼續。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我今天沒有要你道歉，我今天講的是政府的公信力，我說你不要讓民眾、一般的媒體去採訪發現了問題，聯合報去追蹤了90天，它說到了10月初的時候，第90天，還有很多地方就是像啓楷去看的這樣，我是在19號、18號又去看，又是一堆問題。一般嘉義的民眾或者是全國民眾只要這段時間經過新塭滯洪池，你經過新庄……來，我再給你看一個畫面，你們是16號發新聞稿的，對不對？17號嘉義縣政府還打臉你們，還開罰耶！"],["龔部長明鑫：我們可以講了嗎？"],["張委員啓楷：我今天不是要你道歉，我現在是說，第一個……"],["龔部長明鑫：我們現在可以講了嗎？"],["張委員啓楷：部長，今天最重要的，不要睜眼說瞎話，讓民眾……"],["龔部長明鑫：我們沒有睜眼說瞎話。"],["張委員啓楷：因為民眾會覺得說我過去看都有看到，是經濟部……"],["主席：因為時間的關係……"],["張委員啓楷：OK，我時間到了，我現在要兩個東西：第一個，要確定把它清除完畢，好不好？"],["龔部長明鑫：清了，我們會再清，剛剛署長也有講一定會再清，實際地巡檢……"],["張委員啓楷：第一個要求是一定要把它清乾淨。第二個，你的新聞稿出現問題，趕快去更正。"],["龔部長明鑫：我們會持續清。"],["張委員啓楷：你說你清完了嘛。第三個，一個禮拜內給我一份報告。"],["龔部長明鑫：好。"],["張委員啓楷：為什麼民眾都看到有問題，你一直講說清完了，好不好？"],["龔部長明鑫：有、有、有，剛才說明了，好。"],["張委員啓楷：確定了，不要再污染我們臺灣的土地，好不好？"],["龔部長明鑫：不會、不會。"],["主席：好，謝謝。部長，因為委員大家都關心。"],["龔部長明鑫：我知道。"],["主席：其實大家都希望社會不要有疑慮，所以如果你認為媒體是有誤的，你們要想辦法去釐清楚，好不好？"],["龔部長明鑫：我們會。"],["主席：這才是我們詢答最重要的重點，謝謝。"],["龔部長明鑫：好，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請鄭正鈐委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-6","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","謝衣鳯","陳超明","賴瑞隆","呂玉玲","賴士葆","王育敏","盧縣一","蔡易餘","葉元之","廖先翔","柯志恩","高金素梅","賴惠員","吳宗憲","李坤城","徐富癸","羅廷瑋","王鴻薇","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","謝龍介","林楚茵","張嘉郡","邱志偉","牛煦庭","劉建國"],"page_start":253,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148701_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請經濟部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148701_00013"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}