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就不一樣所以那一部分是大家有比較多的意見其他的大部分都已經大家大部分都能夠認同但是這個就滿大的意見了因為如果說我們要畫我們有這個新版裁判法出來的話這個其實就是"},{"start":78.667,"end":99.56,"text":"要尋求共識裡面這個最大的差異點在這邊也可能是最後擺不平的地方那請教一下次長那在這個修財化法我剛有聽希望說在十一月底之前能夠售出來我們爭取我們現在如果要做出來是其實我覺得是溝通的問題如果是溝通那我們還會再找地方政府再來一次開會嗎還是就是"},{"start":101.241,"end":127.768,"text":"再開到昨天就差不多了我們是這樣子就是說如果可以的話當然我們不放棄跟地方政府再進一步溝通但是如果是還是同樣的溝通的結果還是一樣的話可能我們就是會按照我們就是認為最合理最公平的方式那麼做一個決定那當然這個財政部認為說昨天有一些有共識的地方不過我看今天媒體有寫說這個"},{"start":129.648,"end":155.405,"text":"行政院版的財劃法財政部挨自說自話這個我覺得應該意思就是說沒有去就是說這個沒有去做好溝通然後在溝通過程當中當然我們自己一定會有版本我們拿著我們版本來做溝通不過就像次長所講的就是說可能六都跟非六都大家對於這個指標會有不同的意見跟看法"},{"start":156.205,"end":170.993,"text":"那我再請教一下這個次長下一張我們來看一下修法前後水平分配指標的對照那譬如說像這個營利事業所得稅修法前是50%現在降到30%我現在講說就是今年"},{"start":172.193,"end":197.085,"text":"去年底通過這個才化法就是變成30%然後人口的權重增加到45%增加很多那當然會造成一些問題比如說就會變成說這個比較人口比較多的或是說營利事業所的稅稅收比較多的等等可能會造成這個越富的越富 越窮的越窮"},{"start":198.946,"end":218.477,"text":"這是去年修法的一些問題我們再看下一張這個就是剛剛的那一張30%是營利事業所得稅等等加起來100%我想請教一下次長在討論的過程當中這就是水平分配了水平分配的行政院的版本"},{"start":220.049,"end":245.322,"text":"在這個指標裡面有做什麼樣的一些調整一定是有多有少的啦因為我剛剛聽有委員講說你增加在哪裡那一個餅就這樣子嘛一定有的有少 一定有的有增加嘛那少在哪裡 增加在哪裡我們現在是這樣因為現行的就是才通過的這個版本裡面大家委員很清楚就是說它的指標過度集中在人口跟營利稅所的額嘛佔了75%嘛"},{"start":247.003,"end":252.486,"text":"就是造成城鄉之間的差距所以我們就是把指標那一部分做了比較通盤的一個檢討比如說像財政努力我們就是把它分成就是盈利稅所的額還有財產稅的努力還有非稅收入三項指標你說財政努力現在佔幾%"},{"start":275.12,"end":297.224,"text":"我們看一下那個圓餅圖好了另外基本關切比較多的就是基本建設需求基本建設需求那部分我們就分成五大項就是一個土地面積還有人口數還有工業人口我們把工業人口拉進去農林漁牧人口的結構還有就是農林漁牧的產值這五項的指標"},{"start":302.625,"end":321.837,"text":"那它比重大概是占多少現在土地面積土地面積是占多少土地面積的話占的是百分之三十占三十趴那人口指標你說你有在分你有分任一個工業人口農林營運人口是不是對就是那它比重咧比重的話人口是不是占百分之三十"},{"start":322.597,"end":350.856,"text":"那工業人口是佔20%那農林榆木人口是佔10%然後農林榆木產值是10%也就是說讓我們這是基本建設這方面就對了那我們希望就是說城鄉之間能夠更加的平衡而且這個比如說像土地面積像有些地方土地面積它的比如說它的種類不一樣比如說像林業用地林業用地我們那我知道那現在就是說那盈利事業所得稅現在從30%降到20%"},{"start":353.658,"end":357.74,"text":"對 是不是 是然後那個財稅的成長率財產稅的努力現在佔多少"},{"start":362.103,"end":386.482,"text":"財政努力這個是所謂佔多少是哪一部分的佔多少就是在我剛剛這個圓餅圖裡面就是財產稅的努力那一部分就是總權重是財政努力的佔比是全部加起來財產稅努力是佔起來是一個是15%就是激增努力度"},{"start":387.643,"end":416.542,"text":"那另外一個財產稅成長率的未續評分法這個占50%所以基本上我們是希望就是說能夠真正做到讓地方政府能夠努力去開拓它的財源好 你剛剛這個結論你再給我一下那我先請教次長如果按照你們去跟地方政府溝通的這一個版本來講的話那六度跟非六度會呈現什麼樣的跟過去財務法不一樣的地方"},{"start":418.291,"end":441.588,"text":"六都是會減少稍微有一點收斂減少幅度大概多大幅度可能我這個可能還在看你再整理一下但是基本上那個方向就是說比較發達的這些那部分會稍微往下降"},{"start":442.048,"end":462.268,"text":"六都會往下降就對了所以往下降不一定是六都所以比較工商發達或者人口比如說像還有像哪一些稍微往下降但是屬於比較這個原來比較偏鄉的那一部分會因為它收支差短會比較大所以慢慢的它就會拉上來我們希望做到做到就是能夠公平合理"},{"start":462.768,"end":481.149,"text":"因為財化法上基本的原則就是條基因序這個我知道 這個原則我知道啦那我立刻說大家在爭執的在炒地方立刻說那我本來可能拿得比較多現在變拿得比較少了所以這個問題就在這裡但是也有本來拿得比較少變拿得比較多了有吧"},{"start":482.41,"end":505.346,"text":"有本來拿得比較少 現在變得拿得比較多的有吧 不可能全部大家都減少吧因為如果大家都減少的話那大家就說那中央錢又拿走了 這樣也不合理所以一定有的有減少那一定也有增加嘛 對不對那增加的多不多咧 增加的限制多不多咧"},{"start":506.806,"end":534.275,"text":"增加的啦增加的怎么样现世多不多现在还没有因为还整个那个最后的那个权重还没有确定你不能修出来这个法就是说让这一个原本这个增加的减少那他们一定会有怨言但是原本减少的如果增加了那他们也会觉得说那这样子对他们有利那我觉得你就是要去做一个平衡那你如果全部都减少的话那当然这个法一定过不了的"},{"start":534.955,"end":559.07,"text":"但是我跟委員報告我們還有一個財源保障機制也就是剛才我們主計長一直講的只增不減每一個縣市雖然是說我們現在因為現在是分別太不平均了我們雖然有些縣市把它降下來但是還是比過去還是增不減最後一定會增加的因為我們統籌分配的款最後現在是八千多億了對不對增加快一倍所以一定會增加的"},{"start":560.631,"end":579.207,"text":"還是會增加所以我們還是保障只升不減而且我們還有一個財源保障機制就不低於那個基準的原來分配的財源有一個保障的機制我這個跟次長講就是說你如果要送這個財務法出來你要去說服"},{"start":580.187,"end":596.807,"text":"說服就是說這個原本如果比較富裕的他們所減少的希望說能夠均衡其他拿了比較少的縣市那所以他們要增加那如果他們也沒有增加的話那當然都不會通過的嘛好 請教一下主席長"},{"start":597.788,"end":620.56,"text":"主席長 因為計算公式分母計算公式錯了現在有345億沒辦法分配那這345億沒辦法分配的話那現在怎麼解決呢因為這個是行政院沒辦法說沒辦法解決 隨便修法那這345億可以做其他的用途嗎"},{"start":622.513,"end":646.975,"text":"這個部分要看修好的一個結果就是說它只能用在這個統籌分配款還是可以用在其他的用途裡面因為現在財政部這個要財政部來回答這個部分就是財政部表示這個部分它也沒辦法使用所以它只能留著它也沒辦法擅自分配是這樣所以就會新的法律有說這個部分是要怎麼分配這樣子"},{"start":647.395,"end":652.042,"text":"那我今天可不可以提出一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":599,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（10時34分）謝謝主席，我們請陳主計長、阮次長及國庫署陳署長。"],["主席：請主計長、阮次長及陳署長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：主計長好。我先問一下次長，因為昨天才開會嘛，昨天是第4次邀集地方政府會商統籌稅款分配方式，我剛剛有聽到次長說有達成共識的地方，當然一定也有歧異的地方嘛，請問歧異的地方在哪裡？"],["阮次長清華：最主要就是有關指標的權重問題。"],["李委員坤城：指標權重？"],["阮次長清華：指標權重，因為權重會直接涉及到分配的金額，比如說臺北市跟南部縣市或者是嘉義縣等等，它的營業額差很多……"],["李委員坤城：所以指標權重就是六都跟非六都之間？"],["阮次長清華：對、對、對。"],["李委員坤城：大家的要求會不一樣？"],["阮次長清華：對，都不一樣，所以那部分大家有比較多的意見，其他的部分，大部分大家都能夠認同。"],["李委員坤城：但是這個就有滿大的意見了啊！"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["李委員坤城：如果我們有新版財劃法出來的話，這個就是尋求共識裡面的最大差異點，也可能是最後擺不平的地方啦！"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["李委員坤城：請教一下次長，修正財劃法的部分，我剛剛有聽到的是希望在11月底之前能夠送出來嘛！"],["阮次長清華：我們爭取，我們現在如果要做出來，我覺得是溝通的問題，如果溝通……"],["李委員坤城：你們還會再找地方政府來開會嗎？還是開到昨天就差不多了？"],["阮次長清華：目前是這樣子，如果可以的話，當然我們不放棄跟地方政府再進一步溝通，但是如果溝通的結果還是一樣的話，可能就是會按照我們認為最合理、最公平的方式來做一個決定。"],["李委員坤城：當然，財政部認為昨天有一些有共識的地方，不過我看今天媒體報導的標題卻是「院版財劃法財部挨批自說自話」。"],["阮次長清華：這個我覺得應該……"],["李委員坤城：意思就是沒有做好溝通，然後在溝通過程當中，當然我們一定會有自己版本嘛，我們拿著我們的版本去做溝通，不過就像次長所講的，可能六都跟非六都對於這個指標會有不同的意見跟看法。"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["李委員坤城：我再請教一下次長，請看一下修法前後水平分配指標的對照，譬如說，營利事業營業額修法前是50%，現在降到30%，我現在講的是去年底通過的財劃法，就是變成30%；然後人口的權重增加到45%，增加很多，那當然會造成一些問題，就會變成人口比較多的，或是營利事業營業額的收入比較多的等等，可能會造成越富的越富、越窮的越窮，這是去年修法的一些問題。"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["李委員坤城：我們再看下一張簡報，這個就是剛才那個比率的圓餅圖，人口指標45%、營利事業營業額30%等等加起來總共100%。我想請教一下次長，在討論的過程當中，這就是水平分配了，請問行政院的版本在這個指標裡面有做什麼樣的調整？一定是有多有少的啦，因為我剛才聽到有委員講說增加在哪裡，一個餅就這樣子嘛，一定是有的有減少、有的有增加嘛！"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["李委員坤城：那麼減少是少在哪裡？增加是加在哪裡？"],["阮次長清華：現在是這樣，因為現行的，也就是才通過的這個版本，當然委員也很清楚，它的指標過度集中在人口跟營利事業營業額，總共占了75%，就造成城鄉之間的差距……"],["李委員坤城：對、對、對！從我剛才的提出的數據就看得出來修法後那二個加起來是75%。"],["阮次長清華：所以我們就是把指標中的那一部分做了比較比較通盤的檢討，比如像財政努力，我們就是把它分成營利事業營業額、財產稅努力還有非稅收入三項指標。另外一個大家比較關切的……"],["李委員坤城：你說財政努力，財政努力現在占幾趴？"],["阮次長清華：另外就是還有……"],["李委員坤城：我們看一下那個圓餅圖好了。"],["阮次長清華：另外，大家關切比較多的就是基本建設需求，基本建設需求那部分我們就分成五大項，就是土地面積、人口數、工業人口，我們把工業人口拉進去，還有農林漁牧人口結構及農林漁牧的產值，這五項指標……"],["李委員坤城：那它的比重大概是占多少？現在土地面積是占多少？"],["阮次長清華：土地面積是占30%。"],["李委員坤城：你說人口指標有再細分，有分工業人口、農林漁牧人口，是不是？"],["阮次長清華：對，就是……"],["李委員坤城：那它的比重呢？"],["阮次長清華：比重的話，人口數是占30%，工業人口是占20%，農林漁牧人口是占10%，然後農林漁牧的產值是10%，也就是說我們……"],["李委員坤城：這是基本建設這方面就對了？"],["阮次長清華：對，我們希望就是城鄉之間能夠更加的平衡，而且比如說像土地面積，有些地方它的土地種類不一樣，比如說像林業用地，林業用地我們就用……"],["李委員坤城：我知道。那現在就是營利事業所得稅從30%降到20%，是不是？"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["李委員坤城：然後財稅的成長率，財產稅努力現在占多少？"],["阮次長清華：財產稅努力這個是……所謂占多少是哪一部分的占多少？"],["李委員坤城：就是占我剛剛的這個圓餅圖裡面。"],["阮次長清華：財產稅努力那一部分，就是財政努力占總權重的占比全部加起來，財產稅努力占比一個是15%，就是稽徵努力度；另外一個財產稅成長率的位序評分法，這個占50%，基本上我們是希望能夠真正做到讓地方政府努力去開拓它的財源。"],["李委員坤城：好，你剛剛講的這個結論，你再給我一下。"],["阮次長清華：好。"],["李委員坤城：我再請教次長，如果按照你們去跟地方政府溝通的這一個版本來講的話，六都跟非六都會呈現什麼樣跟過去的財劃法不一樣的地方？"],["阮次長清華：當然這樣子的話會稍微有一點……"],["李委員坤城：六都是會減少？"],["阮次長清華：稍微有一點收斂，那……"],["李委員坤城：那減少幅度大概多大？"],["阮次長清華：幅度可能還要再看，還要再整理一下，但是基本上的方向就是比較發達的部分會稍微往下降。"],["李委員坤城：六都會往下降就對了？"],["阮次長清華：對，是會往下降，不一定是六都，就是比較工商發達或者人口集中的……"],["李委員坤城：比如說還有像哪一些？"],["阮次長清華：會稍微往下降，但是原來比較屬於偏鄉的那一部分，因為它的收支差短會比較大，所以慢慢地它就會拉上來，我們是希望能夠做到公平合理，因為財劃法的基本原則就是調劑盈虛嘛。"],["李委員坤城：這個我知道，這個原則我知道啦，我的意思是，大家在爭執的、在吵的地方就是說，我本來可能拿得比較多，現在變拿得比較少了。"],["阮次長清華：所以問題就在這裡，因為當時……"],["李委員坤城：但是也有本來拿得比較少的變拿得比較多了，有吧？有本來拿得比較少，現在變成拿比較多的，有吧？"],["阮次長清華：有。"],["李委員坤城：也不可能全部大家都減少吧？"],["阮次長清華：對、對、對，一定會有一些變動嘛。"],["李委員坤城：因為如果大家都減少的話，那大家就會說中央把錢又拿走了，這樣也不合理。"],["阮次長清華：不會、不會，這個錢是屬於……"],["李委員坤城：所以因為有的有減少，一定有的也有增加嘛，對不對？"],["阮次長清華：對、對、對，一定會……"],["李委員坤城：增加的縣市多不多？"],["阮次長清華：現在還沒有，因為整個最後的權重還沒有確定。"],["李委員坤城：你不能修出來這個法，讓原本增加的減少，那他們一定會有怨言；但是原本減少的如果增加了，他們也會覺得說這樣子對他們有利，我覺得你就是要去做一個平衡啦，如果全部都減少的話，當然這個法一定過不了的啊！"],["阮次長清華：但是我跟委員報告，我們還有一個財源保障機制，也就是剛才主計長一直講的只增不減，每一個縣市，因為現在是分配太不平均了，雖然有一些縣市我們把它降下來，但是比過去還是只增不減……"],["李委員坤城：最後一定會增加的，因為我們……"],["阮次長清華：還是增加。"],["李委員坤城：我們的統籌分配款現在是八千多億了嘛，對不對？增加快一倍啊，所以一定會增加的啊！"],["阮次長清華：對，還是會增加，所以我們還是會保障只增不減，而且我們還有一個財源保障機制，就是不低於基準的原來分配的財源，有一個保障的機制。"],["李委員坤城：我這邊要跟次長講，你如果要送這個財劃法出來，你要去說服原本比較富裕的，他們所減少的是希望能夠均衡其他拿得比較少的縣市，所以後者要增加，如果他們也沒有增加的話，那當然一定都不會通過的嘛。"],["阮次長清華：是、是。"],["李委員坤城：好，我再請教一下主計長，次長請回。","主計長，因為計算公式的分母錯了，現在有345億沒辦法分配嘛，這345億沒辦法分配的話，現在怎麼解決呢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為行政院沒辦法針對這個部分提出……"],["李委員坤城：沒辦法，沒辦法解決，除非修法？那這345億可以做其他的用途嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分要看修法的結果啦。"],["李委員坤城：就是說它只能用在統籌分配款，還是可以用在其他的用途上面？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個要財政部來回答，財政部表示，這個部分它也沒辦法使用，所以它只能留著，它也沒辦法擅自分配，除非新的法律規定這個部分要怎麼分配。"],["李委員坤城：那我們可不可以提一個暫行條例出來，把多的這345億拿來做其他的用途？"],["陳主計長淑姿：那必須要修正財劃法裡面相關的條文。"],["李委員坤城：這樣子喔？好，我再去跟你討論一下。時間到了，謝謝。"],["陳主計長淑姿：好。"],["主席：謝謝李坤城召委。","接下來請鍾佳濱委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":398,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-3","speakers":["林思銘","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","李坤城","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","羅明才","王世堅","張啓楷","洪孟楷","陳玉珍","楊瓊瓔","高金素梅","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":333,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148701_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處、財政部就「中央對直轄市及縣（市）政府補助辦法修正後，一般性補助款\n審查與評比基準、財務計畫檢核基礎、撥款方式等規範及作業程序為何？修改財力級次計算公式\n之合理性及對各縣市補助款影響為何？計畫型補助款範圍與業務定義？對各縣市未來整體財政補\n助金額之影響」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148701_00014"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}