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10:52:39","會議時間":"2025-10-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請內政部就「替代役訓練及備役召集運用」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查「替代役實施條例」：(一)委員王美惠等18人擬具「替代役實施條例第五十九條條文修正草案」案。(二)委員羅美玲等18人擬具「替代役實施條例增訂第五十五條之五條文草案」案。(三)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「替代役實施條例第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n\n【10月22日及23日兩天一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.96284375,"end":4.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.785343750000001,"end":7.574093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.54034375,"end":8.384093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.126593750000001,"end":10.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.134718750000001,"end":12.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.176593750000002,"end":14.15534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.63596875,"end":19.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.669093750000002,"end":21.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.769718750000003,"end":25.039718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.15784375,"end":25.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.17471875,"end":25.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.452843750000003,"end":28.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.63409375,"end":30.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.422843750000002,"end":31.215968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.11034375,"end":32.970968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.852843750000005,"end":34.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.77659375,"end":34.962218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.962218750000005,"end":35.67096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.01284375,"end":35.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.67096875,"end":36.025343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.025343750000005,"end":37.510343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.59909375,"end":36.666593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.91971875,"end":36.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.438468750000006,"end":40.463468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.767218750000005,"end":46.150343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.82534375,"end":49.87971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.52096875,"end":56.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.61284375,"end":58.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.95846875,"end":66.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.95721875000001,"end":71.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.08721875,"end":72.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.99846875,"end":76.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.08221875000001,"end":81.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.51596875,"end":83.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.15284375,"end":87.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.95409375,"end":91.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.25784375,"end":100.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.49221875,"end":105.38159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.98534375000001,"end":103.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.11159375000001,"end":105.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.64721875000001,"end":107.27159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.04784375000001,"end":108.94221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.09846875000001,"end":108.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.48221875,"end":111.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.18659375,"end":118.83096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.92909375,"end":112.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.64096875000001,"end":120.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.09221875,"end":121.78409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.07096875,"end":123.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.11284375000001,"end":126.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.71596875,"end":127.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.18409375,"end":127.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.34846875,"end":128.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.17534375,"end":133.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.71909375,"end":133.10721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.88346875000002,"end":134.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.06471875,"end":136.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.22471875000002,"end":145.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.27034375,"end":150.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.22721875000002,"end":148.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.72471875000002,"end":153.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.49221875,"end":157.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.77846875,"end":162.57096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.30159375000002,"end":172.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.97471875000002,"end":171.93659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.00409375,"end":172.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.39221875,"end":172.71284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.71284375000002,"end":183.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.28659375,"end":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我們這一次在體位區分標準修正的時候要把BMI值"},{"start":156.371,"end":182.991,"text":"做大幅度的提升大幅度的提升邀請他進來然後一起來健康來訓練國防如果要達到免疫的話要BMI只要達到45這是相當重的問題也就是說他完全用正中的方式要達到免疫幾乎不可能除非他有好 這就是我要問的嘛那除了這一個部分BMI內政部現在還有計畫要修訂或加嚴的然後來防止這一類的情形還有沒有其他的"},{"start":183.291,"end":210.545,"text":"那血壓當然是我們的重中之重血壓要怎麼去防範血壓的部分當然我們如果是純粹的血壓以往是免疫體位那我們現在必須要到血壓必須要達到他的心臟或者是器官有食指的病變才可以達到免疫體位這是他的我們的標準在定定的時候的內容所以這個部分也會大幅度的修動還有技術上比如說要量血壓我們都要做住院檢查"},{"start":210.925,"end":236.49,"text":"以往是勢必 勢需要才住院檢查現在是規定一定要住院檢查長期的 24小時的關注所以我們不管是在標準的制定或者是在檢查的這個制度上的規範我們都從嚴來訂定這個部分好 那現在對於已經確認涉及妨害兵役的這些異難在法律責任之外內政部將如何處理他們的役期或者是服役的義務"},{"start":238.889,"end":259.981,"text":"這個部分剛才有特別提到有需要補充嗎 有需要補服兵役嗎所以36歲以內是一定要回來如果說 先前我們這一次在這一波的調查當中有些藝人就發現到他自己也造假了他也主動來坦承了那坦承我們之後我們就跟縣市政府協調就恢復判他原來的地位"},{"start":261.262,"end":286.248,"text":"儘速把他徵集入院就補復兵役嘛36歲以後呢37歲以後因為他是廚藝了那廚藝這個部分是不是還要再來要來補兵役這個也有立法委員提出來希望這個部分即使他是37歲以後希望在機制上能不能再讓他回來機制我想大家對於這個兵役的公平性大家有所質疑我想內政部要有具體的措施來維護"},{"start":287.388,"end":312.595,"text":"我們所有男性服兵役這樣子的公平我昨天受訪的時候也表示鼓勵藝人來宣導服役那服役是光榮的那我們也希望37歲以後的這些到底是要回來補服兵役還是他現有的狀況他可能是知名藝人能不能夠幫忙協助內政部國防部來做相對應的一個宣導增加我們的一個形象"},{"start":313.435,"end":337.933,"text":"這部分我覺得你們也可以研擬嘛對不對你覺得呢類似像社會藝這樣子用什麼樣的方式我可以具體去研究當然他們有藝人的光環你能不能認為說他是一個很好的樣板如果他不服兵役或者是他不能不服兵役的時候這個藝人他如果是一個知名藝人他甚至是有一個正面的能夠帶動到整體的形象"},{"start":339.266,"end":367.52,"text":"內政部是不是應該運用一下我想是這樣子啊第一個他如果已經有移送法辦那最後那個地檢署或者是法院要做什麼樣子的一個這個處分或是裁決我們當然就尊重那結束之後他如果願意來幫忙這個推動兵役的話我們當然會歡迎可是這個會變成負面的形象變成正面形象的過程當中一般社會大眾能不能接受還是他本來就是很健康的改過自新也是一個非常好的一個議題啊"},{"start":368.901,"end":393.432,"text":"怎麼會是完全就是負面而且畢竟有些人是得過很多的獎項我想在演藝上的事業不可否認他是的確有他的一個規模但是在這樣狀況下我覺得能夠帶動到整體的年輕人去學習後面能夠好好的來服兵役或者是好好的來服兵役或者是藉此發現其實當兵是很快樂我跟你講我當兵"},{"start":395.46,"end":409.926,"text":"最後十秒我當兵的時候是看那個新兵日記被那個熱血跟那個快樂 歡樂給騙進去的啦最後是真的很艱難啦但是我認為這個文化產業應該跟上以上 謝謝謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":654,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（10時45分）謝謝主席。有請內政部部長，謝謝。"],["主席：請部長。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好！"],["羅委員廷瑋：也麻煩國防部簡任視察。"],["主席：請國防部。"],["羅委員廷瑋：先請問一下部長，你看一下這個圖片，你知道這是哪裡嗎？答得出來嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：請委員指教。"],["羅委員廷瑋：這個是西引島。"],["劉部長世芳：哦！西引島。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對，大家口中的「國之北疆」。為什麼我要跟大家這樣子分享？同樣都是正常體位的役男，有人閃兵、免當兵，有的人在這裡當兵。在這裡當兵的役男大概一百多天才能夠回臺灣一次，我想請問一下內政部部長，請問目前掌握疑似涉及妨礙兵役的役男或者是案件，總數大概是多少？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們移送到地檢跟縣市地方政府的是133件。"],["羅委員廷瑋：除了目前已知的這些方式，如：高血壓，還有沒有發現其他偽造體位或證明的模式，方便透露嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：是這樣子，我們不做個案上……"],["羅委員廷瑋：對，就是整體通案上，有沒有相關的文證，都是哪一些體位？"],["劉部長世芳：跟委員報告，檢舉出來的部分包括有：僵直性脊椎炎、精神疾病、還有胸廓畸型，應該是所謂的「氣胸」案。"],["羅委員廷瑋：氣胸、僵直性脊椎炎……"],["劉部長世芳：還有精神疾病。"],["羅委員廷瑋：高血壓有很多起嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：高血壓相當多。"],["羅委員廷瑋：相當多嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以偽造的體位模式可以明確抓到的是這幾個，那體重呢？應該還好吧！"],["劉部長世芳：過重是吧？"],["羅委員廷瑋：BMI過重……"],["劉部長世芳：我請司長跟你回應一下。"],["沈司長哲芳：有關增重的部分，因為他是增重嘛！所以在檢查上，如果他是蓄意增重，這個部分是不是涉及逃避兵役，這個我們會再和檢調單位做研議。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我記得後續還會追蹤他的體重嘛！對不對？"],["沈司長哲芳：對，他增重，那我們……"],["羅委員廷瑋：但是有的可能就一去不復返了，造成國人的健康也發生問題。"],["沈司長哲芳：是，所以這一次我們在修正體位區分標準的時候，要把BMI值做大幅度的提升。"],["羅委員廷瑋：大幅度的提升，邀請他進來，然後一起來健康、來訓練國防。"],["沈司長哲芳：現在如果要達到免役的話，BMI值要達到45，這是相當重的，也就是說，他完全要用增重的方式來達到免役幾乎不可能。"],["羅委員廷瑋：幾乎不可行。"],["沈司長哲芳：除非他有其他的疾病。"],["羅委員廷瑋：這就是我要問的，除了BMI這個部分，內政部現在要計畫要修訂或加嚴來防止這一類的情形，還有沒有其他的？"],["沈司長哲芳：血壓當然是我們的重中之重。"],["羅委員廷瑋：要怎麼去防範？"],["沈司長哲芳：血壓的部分，當然如果是純粹的血壓，以往是免役體位，但現在血壓必須要達到他的心臟或者是器官有實質的病變，才可以達到免役體位，這是我們的標準在訂定時的內容。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以這個部分也會大幅度的修動？"],["沈司長哲芳：還有技術上，比如量血壓我們都要做住院檢查，以往是視需要才住院檢查，現在是規定一定要住院檢查。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，就是長期的、24小時的關注。"],["沈司長哲芳：對，針對血壓的部分，不管是在標準的制定或是檢查制度的規範，我們都從嚴的來訂定這個部分。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，現在對於已經確認涉及妨礙兵役的這些役男，在法律責任之外，內政部將如何處理他們的役期或者是服役的義務？"],["沈司長哲芳：這個部分剛才有特別提到……"],["羅委員廷瑋：有需要補服兵役嗎？"],["沈司長哲芳：36歲以內是一定要回來，在這一波的調查中，發現有些役男造假，他也主動的坦誠了，之後我們有跟縣市政府協調，恢復判他原來的體位，也儘速把他徵集入營。"],["羅委員廷瑋：就是補服兵役嘛！"],["沈司長哲芳：就是補服兵役。"],["羅委員廷瑋：36歲以後呢？"],["沈司長哲芳：37歲以後因為除役了，除役的這個部分，是不是還要再來補服兵役？這個也有立法委員提出來，即使他是37歲以上，也希望在機制上能不能讓他再回來補服兵役？這個部分還要取得共識。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想大家對於兵役的公平性都有所質疑，內政部要有具體的措施來維護所有男性服兵役的公平性，我昨天受訪的時候也表示，可以鼓勵藝人來宣導服役是光榮的。我們也希望37歲以後的這些人，到底他們是要回來補服兵役？還是以他現有的狀況，因為他有可能是知名藝人，他能不能夠協助內政部或國防部做相對應的宣導，增加我們的形象？這部分我覺得你們也可以研擬嘛！對不對？你覺得呢？部長。"],["劉部長世芳：類似社會役這樣子？"],["羅委員廷瑋：用什麼樣的方式可以具體去研究，但是我覺得……"],["劉部長世芳：當然，他們有藝人的光環。"],["羅委員廷瑋：但你認為這是不是一個很好的樣版？如果他補服兵役，或者是當他不能補服兵役的時候，如果他是一個知名的藝人，他甚至有正面的、能夠帶動整體形象的，內政部是不是應該要運用一下？"],["劉部長世芳：我想是這樣子，第一個，如果他已經移送法辦，最後地檢署或者是法院要做什麼樣子的處分或是裁決，我們當然就是尊重。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對，那是法律嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：結束之後，如果他願意來幫忙推動服兵役的話，我們當然會歡迎，可是在負面形象轉變成正面形象的過程中，一般社會大眾能不能接受？還是他本來就很健康的去服兵役？"],["羅委員廷瑋：改過自新也是一個非常好的議題啊！怎麼會完全都是負面？畢竟有些人得過很多的獎項，我想他們在演藝上的事業不可否認的確有他的規模，在這樣的狀況下，我覺得能夠帶動到整體的年輕人去學習後面能夠好好的來服兵役，或者是好好的來服兵役。"],["劉部長世芳：就是知錯能改，所以我們鼓勵他？"],["羅委員廷瑋：或者藉此發現當兵是很快樂的，我跟你講，我當兵……"],["主席：時間到了。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我最後10秒，我當兵的時候是看「新兵日記」，我就是被那個熱血、快樂、歡樂給騙進去的，最後是真的很艱難，但是我認為這個文化產業應該要跟上，以上，謝謝。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員。"],["主席：感謝羅廷瑋委員的質詢。","登記發言的委員除不在場者之外，其餘皆已發言完畢，質詢結束。委員林楚茵所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":288,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-7","speakers":["王美惠","羅美玲","麥玉珍","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","牛煦庭","黃捷","許宇甄","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","羅廷瑋","林楚茵","謝龍介","吳琪銘","高金素梅"],"page_start":249,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請內政部就「替代役訓練及備役召集運用」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查「替代役\n實施條例」： ( 一 ) 委員王美惠等 18 人擬具「替代役實施條例第五十九條條文修正草案」案、\n(二）委員羅美玲等18人擬具「替代役實施條例增訂第五十五條之五條文草案」案、 (三)台灣民\n眾黨黨團擬具「替代役實施條例第五十五條之一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1148601_00005"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}