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框架是沒有的我們談是在前面談耶"},{"start":208.028,"end":214.253,"text":"阿為什麼要在後面內容上是完全無關我知道啦 但是你就是說我們談在什麼就是很讓人很嘔的地方啦阿我們就照著該講阿而且台美關係不是很好嗎簡若磐石嗎阿怎麼會擺一擺擺到後面去了談判也有彼此的堅持阿還是要有時間阿因為我們也有我們的堅持我們有堅持嗎我們都學不放阿"},{"start":236.229,"end":239.738,"text":"我們能夠談到你剛剛講的不叠加如果確定可以談到15%嗎"},{"start":241.812,"end":268.942,"text":"努力啦 努力的方向不是 確定啊 是不是確定不是 這個是我們努力的方向你剛剛確定喔你剛剛確定喔 這個是我們努力的方向我們努力的方向 對但是要付出什麼代價蕭美錦副總統是講啦代價就是我們整個晶片的supply chain都過去啦對不對 從上面的design到晶圓代工到整個封裝 伺服器 通通過去啦一邊這樣子"},{"start":270.462,"end":282.671,"text":"台灣半導體的生態系還是會留在台灣 而且還會壯大你知道這樣一來的話有幾家廠要去 你知道嗎沒有 台灣的半導體的生態系你跟我講 因為我時間不要佔用後面的時間有幾家廠要過去 有幾家沒有 我們知道的就是說他會去投資美國並不表示要搬過去 不是這樣的意思"},{"start":293.223,"end":315.379,"text":"投資這某程度 你是程度差別而已啦因為台灣也會壯大啊 台灣壯大除了台積電供現金有超過一兆以上很多的supply chain沒有啊 包括比如說封裝廠它有這麼多現金嗎伺服器的代工廠有這麼多現金嗎它整個都是supply chain的一環"},{"start":316.58,"end":328.529,"text":"他還沒有這麼多錢啊可以說我在台灣一個在美國一個他整個來講不要忘了如果這些補那麼多過去的話我看到的是什麼台灣的年輕人下一代我們下下代"},{"start":330.697,"end":352.316,"text":"他們的工作機會會大幅減少我看到的是這個東西現在台灣的高科技產業是缺人才所以還缺很多所以我們需要更多的人才所以只要你一直沒有回答我就告訴你整個supply chain是數百家到上千家的supply chain整個我們看到的是都過去我不相信說"},{"start":353.777,"end":370.229,"text":"我們所有的數百家上千家都可以說台灣一個廠美國一個廠沒有上千家啦我不相信沒有這麼厲害啦除了台積電幾個幾個很大的廠所以這個去美國投資如果這家公司不賺錢他就不會去啊"},{"start":371.03,"end":376.316,"text":"他為什麼要去 如果不賺錢我幹嘛去那邊公司阿我們副總統 一定會賺錢才會去我們副總統已經講了 都說要去的阿就這樣講阿所以他是跟國內跟國外的部長 那因為委員很關心你詳細再跟委員說明清楚謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":758,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（11時3分）謝謝主席，有請龔部長。"],["主席：我們再請龔部長。"],["龔部長明鑫：賴委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：你好。我只有兩個簡單的問題，第一個，賴總統說有好消息，應該就是講關稅有好消息。有兩件事情要確定一下，是不是關稅不再疊加、20%往下降？是不是？"],["龔部長明鑫：方向上是這樣，對。"],["賴委員士葆：對嘛？"],["龔部長明鑫：對，而且是……"],["賴委員士葆：不疊加，然後往下降。"],["龔部長明鑫：是。"],["賴委員士葆：那最多能降多少？我認為了不起跟韓國、日本一樣，降到15%，是不是這樣？"],["龔部長明鑫：因為15%是最低的。"],["賴委員士葆：啊？"],["龔部長明鑫：如果是順差國，15%是最低的。"],["賴委員士葆：就降到15%嘛！所以最好的情況就是不疊加，降到15%。"],["龔部長明鑫：就是我們爭取，我們極力爭取。"],["賴委員士葆：這個確定嘛！"],["龔部長明鑫：對，我們極力爭取。"],["賴委員士葆：但是我要強調的一點是，這個時間點，timing啊！我們從4月、5月開始談，哇！那時候說好了不起喔！臺灣是全世界前4個國家還5個國家能夠跟美國談關稅，結果一談談到現在，好幾個國家都已經確定了，我們一直沒有確定。","坊間有一種講法，媒體也一種講法，就是說在川習會會面之前，臺灣不會搞定，一定要之後才搞定，即便你現在講了什麼之類的，之後，等於我們還是在中美談判的框架裡面，我們還是被制約的。照理講，賴總統如果講這麼好的消息出來，趕快去搞定啦！這兩天就把它確定啦！對不對？結果現在看起來就是要等到APEC之後，等於是川習見了面以後，臺灣才搞定這個事情，你覺得怎麼樣？"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，的確是有這樣的說法，但是這個是時間上。"],["賴委員士葆：這個確定嗎？確定嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：不是，這個是時間上有這樣的說法，就是說可能它比較優先，因為美中的貿易比較複雜而且量比較大，可能會先講。"],["賴委員士葆：那我們不複雜？"],["龔部長明鑫：所以時間上來講的話……"],["賴委員士葆：他們很複雜，我們不複雜？"],["龔部長明鑫：不是，時間上來講的話，它可能會比較先來處理對中的事務，但是……"],["賴委員士葆：某種程度就是我們的重要性不如中國大陸，很清楚嘛！就這樣子啊！"],["龔部長明鑫：沒有、沒有，我們的半導體是全世界算最好的。"],["賴委員士葆：我知道，那你只有一個半導體啊！其他的他希望要大陸的稀土，還有希望大陸買他的大豆，對不對？"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["賴委員士葆：大陸的籌碼多，我們的籌碼少啊！"],["龔部長明鑫：是。"],["賴委員士葆：我們的籌碼就一個，就是晶片相關產業。"],["龔部長明鑫：是，但是報告委員，我們跟美國人談的部分，您所謂的框架沒有在中國的框架之下。"],["賴委員士葆：事實就如此啊！"],["龔部長明鑫：這完全不一樣。"],["賴委員士葆：你剛才也同意了，就說在它後面啊！"],["龔部長明鑫：不是，那個是時間的關係。"],["賴委員士葆：時間，對啊！在它後面啊！"],["龔部長明鑫：但是談判的內容，框架是沒有……"],["賴委員士葆：我們是在前面談耶！為什麼要在後面？"],["龔部長明鑫：內容上是完全無關。"],["賴委員士葆：我知道啦！就是說我們談，再怎麼樣……這是讓人很嘔的地方啦！我們很早就跟他談了，而且臺美關係不是很好嗎？堅若磐石嗎？怎麼會擺一擺，擺到後面去了？"],["龔部長明鑫：沒有，談判也有彼此的堅持，還是要有時間啦！因為我們也有我們的堅持。"],["賴委員士葆：我們有堅持嗎？我們都全部放啊！"],["龔部長明鑫：我們很堅持。"],["賴委員士葆：好，我們能夠談到你剛剛講的不疊加，確定可以談到15%嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：努力啦！努力的方向。"],["賴委員士葆：不是，確定啦！是不是確定？"],["龔部長明鑫：不是，這個是我們努力的方向。"],["賴委員士葆：你剛剛有確定喔！"],["龔部長明鑫：這個是我們努力的方向。"],["賴委員士葆：大家要付出什麼代價？蕭美琴副總統就講了，代價就是我們整個晶片的supply chain都過去了，對不對？"],["龔部長明鑫：沒有啦！"],["賴委員士葆：從上面的design到晶圓代工、整個封裝、伺服器統統過去啦！就變成這樣子。"],["龔部長明鑫：沒有，臺灣半導體的生態系還是會留在臺灣，而且還會壯大。"],["賴委員士葆：這樣一來的話，有幾家廠要去，你知道嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：沒有，臺灣的半導體生態鏈……"],["賴委員士葆：不，你跟我講，因為我不要占用後面的時間。"],["龔部長明鑫：是。"],["賴委員士葆：有幾家廠要過去？有幾家？"],["龔部長明鑫：沒有，我們知道的就是它會去投資美國並不表示要搬過去，不是這樣的意思。"],["賴委員士葆：投資，這某種程度，你只是程度差別而已啦！"],["龔部長明鑫：沒有，因為它臺灣也會壯大啊！臺灣壯大以後……"],["賴委員士葆：除了台積電的現金有超過1兆以上，很多的supply chain沒有啊！比如說封裝廠有這麼多現金嗎？伺服器的代工廠有這麼多現金嗎？它整個就是supply chain的一環，它也沒有這麼多錢，可以說我在臺灣一個、在美國一個。不要忘了喔！如果有那麼多過去的話，我看到的是什麼？臺灣的年輕人，下一代、下下代的工作機會會大幅減少，我看到的是這個東西。"],["龔部長明鑫：現在臺灣的高科技產業是缺人才，還缺很多，我們需要更多的人才，所以只要臺灣的……"],["賴委員士葆：你一直沒有回答，我就告訴你，是數百家到上千家的整個supply 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