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及第364条"},{"start":1971.758,"end":1995.888,"text":"委員吳宗憲等19人提案增令第十章之一章明第172條之一及第172條之二委員吳宗憲等三人委員黃國昌等三人所提修正動議均保留送院會處理三本案審查完距離據審查報告提請院會公決需交黨團協商因為討論時有吳昭吉委員宗憲出席說明四條次引述條文部分文字及法制用自用與授權主席及議事人員整理宣讀完畢"},{"start":1998.717,"end":2015.214,"text":"請問各位上次會議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏沒有我們議事錄確定接著介紹在場委員及應邀列席官員先介紹在場委員首先介紹黃委員國昌再來介紹陳委員俊宇謝謝"},{"start":2017.864,"end":2044.962,"text":"接著介紹應邀列席官員包括我們司法院王梅英副秘書長歡迎以及行政訴訟及懲戒廳廳長陳怡廳長陳怡廳長以及行政司法行政廳高玉聖廳長歡迎那麼另外財政部我們歡迎李慶華次長歡迎那另外好那麼"},{"start":2045.771,"end":2065.299,"text":"其餘未及介紹的列席代表請參與名單不再逐一介紹並列入公報記錄本次議程討論事項即二案分別排定繼續審查司法院函清審議稅務行政事件審理法草案及行政法院組織法部分條文修正草案現在進行討論事項"},{"start":2067.298,"end":2092.089,"text":"第一案繼續審查司法院函金審議稅務行政事件審理法草案本案前今14年1月2日本會期本會第24次全體委員會議大體討論完畢進行逐條審查分別通過法律名稱及其中部分條文令其餘未及通過部分決議令定期繼續審查源於今日再就未及審查通過這條文繼續審查現在繼續審查逐條討論"},{"start":2098.049,"end":2106.177,"text":"好那我們就繼續就尚未審查之條文的進行討論那麼主席這邊跟委員報告那上次我們"},{"start":2107.801,"end":2132.857,"text":"暫保留的條文呢我再跟大家做一個重述有目前有第四第五第七第十以及從十一到十六十一到十六上次都未經討論那以及二五二五上次也未經討論那另外呢也二十七條跟三十一條啊也都是先暫保留那因為今天呢就這些條文有討論過但暫保留的條文呢"},{"start":2133.397,"end":2145.989,"text":"那依最多委員表示不同意見的是第十條那我們先就較多委員有不同意見的讓大家可以充分討論所以我們就先第十條的部分開始進行討論"},{"start":2148.442,"end":2164.758,"text":"那麼第10條的部分呢主要是來自於滯納金跟利息那因為目前呢司法院跟財政部啊都分別有就滯納金是否計利息以及如何計算的部分呢有做了一個表格那是不是發給我們在場委員"},{"start":2195.39,"end":2196.511,"text":"如果分數夠的話,幕僚人員也請提供給黨團幕僚人員"},{"start":2213.708,"end":2222.375,"text":"目前我們手上有兩份圖表文字說明分別是因為他們沒有註記有藍色兩條兩列的是司法院"},{"start":2229.591,"end":2249.664,"text":"是財政部的主張那另外呢比較多色塊的有黃色綠色色條的這是司法院的主張那是不是請就不是啊講反了好講反了修正就對了那先請司法院的部分來說明他們主張的部分好請來陳廷長"},{"start":2251.545,"end":2266.324,"text":"欸 主席還是請對不起喔 就第十條因為條文啊 在整個討論的順序上面那主席要怎麼樣宣告 要訂什麼順序我們有什麼其他的意見那但是啊 如果要"},{"start":2268.683,"end":2289.782,"text":"舊條文來討論的話那就要舊條文來討論因為他們現在突然發了這樣一個東西感覺好像彷彿是第十條除了他們現在所發的東西以外沒有其他的整點需要討論這樣子的討論的一個限定我是沒有辦法同意"},{"start":2290.814,"end":2314.886,"text":"喔 了解 因為我們是就跟委員報告因為上次我們在討論到第十條的時候呢基本上委員會各委員的不同意見是對於智納金在提起稅務行政事件的訴訟審查後那他有兩個可能 一個是成立 就是當事人"},{"start":2316.541,"end":2341.102,"text":"敗訴一個是當事人勝訴那當事人勝訴跟敗訴的情況之下呢他會涉及到之前財政部裁罰的滯納金他後續的處理那敗訴也是一樣主要是敗訴啦當事人敗訴之後之前所裁定的滯納金如何處理的問題主要多數意見是那樣那今天呢我想謝謝委員的提出我們今天第十條不限定討論這個部分"},{"start":2342.563,"end":2356.132,"text":"因為上次第四條的討論是聚焦在這裡所以我們先從上次委員關心的部分來進行當然除了這個部分之外其他的意見委員當然還在第四條審查的時候充分表示意見"},{"start":2358.646,"end":2373.953,"text":"主席這邊只是就上次在第十條的審查期間大家討論的焦點那麼因為財政部跟司法院都做出了他們的回應跟準備那表示他們雙方呢並未達成一致的看法那要由委員會這邊來進行討論來決定"},{"start":2377.074,"end":2397.37,"text":"那我們這邊就是先就這個部分當然委員如果有其他意見我們也很歡迎那是否是上次因為包括莊委員也提出說這個滯納金在當事人敗訴之後那被裁定的滯納金之前的計息方式原來司法院的主張是全部於免息"},{"start":2398.351,"end":2419.506,"text":"但是財政部認為之前已經既然是當事人敗訴那表示他們的裁定是被承認的所以這些當時所提起訴訟之前的滯納金及應繳之利息應繼續計算這是我的理解的簡述那麼待會還是以列席機關他們的說明為主那請問委員會我們是不是來請黃委員"},{"start":2423.104,"end":2438.385,"text":"第十條的部分我先講一個大的picture的問題啦我延續著我在上一次審這個法案的時候我特別提醒司法院的部分這個稅務行政是健身的一方"},{"start":2439.997,"end":2454.55,"text":"要作為稅務行政事件在程序上面的特別法也就是在行政訴訟法之外要去規定一個程序上面的特別法它本身所承載的規範能量"},{"start":2456.977,"end":2483.519,"text":"到底有多少也就是必須要回到跟行政訴訟法所建立的原則去相比對才有辦法清楚的看得出來否則如果只是附述在行政訴訟法裡面的明文規範或者是說附述所謂附述就是重新講一次啦在行政訴訟裡面所本來已經建立的原理原則的話"},{"start":2484.704,"end":2496.471,"text":"那這樣子的特別規定就毫無意義即使你把它解釋成是一個注意性的提醒性的在程序法的規範上都毫無意義"},{"start":2498.069,"end":2522.739,"text":"在這樣的討論基礎之上我希望司法院慎重的去重新全盤考慮你們立了這部法實際上面的實意到底在哪裡實意到底在哪裡那當我說你們去立這部法實意到底在哪裡的時候大概有兩個觀察的角度跟視野"},{"start":2523.683,"end":2533.321,"text":"第一個觀察的角度跟視野是針對你們所聲稱要去解決的問題包括萬年稅單的問題"},{"start":2535.222,"end":2564.207,"text":"包括了擴大單一訴訟紛爭解決的功能希望相關的紛爭能夠徹底解決的這件事情事實上在過去的這段時間當中包括非常多專精說法的最高行政法院的法官法學的教授民間的團體都表達強烈質疑的態度這是第一點"},{"start":2565.783,"end":2591.611,"text":"第二個他們的質疑到底有道理還是沒有道理就會牽涉到稅務行政事件審理法在什麼樣子的程度範圍內針對行政訴訟法有有別於行政訴訟法而取向於在這一次稅務行政事件審理法裡面你們所要達成的立法目的而做的特別的規定"},{"start":2593.158,"end":2621.639,"text":"當你全部盤整完了以後當你全部盤整完了以後因為到目前為止整個稅務行政事件啊審理法你們大概總共全部規範的條文啊有33條33條33條的這個程序的特別法裡面你把前面什麼立法的目的稅務行政事件的範圍把前面跟後面"},{"start":2623.1,"end":2635.28,"text":"本法施行日期什麼時候施行等等掐頭去尾以後你冷靜的看我大概可以切成兩大部分一個是在稅務行政事件的審理原則"},{"start":2636.841,"end":2659.475,"text":"審理原則審理原則裡面到底有什麼特別規定所謂審理原則裡面到底有什麼特別規定指的是說我們採用的是職權主義是職權進行主義然後我們針對有關於在促進訴訟義務的失權效確定違反訴訟促進義務的失權效"},{"start":2666.397,"end":2685.068,"text":"在那邊從頭到尾看一看到底相對於行政訴訟法多了什麼特別的規定所說的那些多的特別規定真的是取向於這個稅務行政事件審理法所要達成的立法目的嗎"},{"start":2686.738,"end":2710.661,"text":"有嗎?還是無必要的去做了一些若干細微相期益的規定而導致在整個法解釋上面體系的混亂讓人家搞不懂讓人家搞不懂那第二個部分是什麼?第二個部分是說就你們所要確定的在判決確定了以後"},{"start":2712.669,"end":2718.952,"text":"確定判決所會產生計判力的客觀範圍因為當你要討論說我要擴大訴訟制度解決紛爭的功能的時候你勢必一定要處理的事情是就這個訴訟所會產生計判力的訴訟標的範圍"},{"start":2734.979,"end":2758.798,"text":"我們先假設啦 我們還是採取多數學說的看法就把計判力的客觀範圍跟訴訟標的範圍先把它劃成是同意先把它劃成是同意那當然你們如果在這個法典裡面會主張說計判力的客觀範圍跟訴訟標的範圍兩者是不一致的話也不是不行但是"},{"start":2760.305,"end":2779.637,"text":"到底有哪些取向於這個立法目的的特別規定我盤整完了以後我必須要老實講真的具有特殊性有必要做特殊規範的條文不超過五條不超過五條我已經全部盤點完了"},{"start":2780.805,"end":2809.586,"text":"在不超過五條的情況之下你們竟然去訂了一個稅務行政事件審理法一個專法來去處理有關於在行政訴訟裡面的審理原則要去做所謂的特別規定某個程度上面啊某個程度上面啊這一個稅務行政事件審理法不僅僅是雷聲大雨點小"},{"start":2811.445,"end":2835.868,"text":"看起來好像洋洋灑灑的有二三十條你實際上面去比對了以後你會發現真的有別於行政訴訟有必要去做特別規範的條文能量事實上是不超過五條甚至你們在裡面所做的一些特別的規定"},{"start":2837.403,"end":2856.357,"text":"到底是在促進納稅者權利的保護還是在傷害納稅者權利的保護這件事情恐怕在立法政策上面都還存在有相當大懷疑的空間那因此"},{"start":2858.103,"end":2878.819,"text":"我從第一次的詢答上一次的審理到今天我必須要很老實的跟司法院講我對於你們到底為什麼要訂這個稅務行政事件審理法老實說我是充滿了困惑因為我不知道他能達成什麼目的"},{"start":2879.844,"end":2902.542,"text":"我甚至在懷疑它所會產生的正面效益遠遠低於它所會帶來的負面效果我為什麼說它所產生的正面效益會低於它帶來的負面效果那個負面效果包括了我們之前一直有在爭執的針對於科稅處分以及針對於罰款處分"},{"start":2906.567,"end":2930.022,"text":"在最高行政法院已經形成了一個審理的基本原則的情況之下從賽制詢答的過程當中你們似乎是要透過這次的修法去變更那個最高行政法院它所已經表示過的法律見解那這樣子的改變"},{"start":2931.536,"end":2959.086,"text":"在罰還處分的時候不管你們怎麼去沿用2022年行政訴訟法的修正這樣子的變更到底是往保護納稅者權利的方向還是在傷害納稅者權利的方向那過去以最高行政法院的判決為基準的話在罰還處分的時候還沒有那麼多附帶的義務"},{"start":2961.623,"end":2977.277,"text":"結果到你們這次稅務行政事件審理法到時候法官在具體個案的時候說立法者在稅務行政事件審理法已經表達了立法者的意向跟立法者的政策選擇說在罰還處分的時候我們一樣"},{"start":2982.401,"end":3001.227,"text":"沒有所謂排除不自證己罪的權利沒有責以違清原則的適用變更了以前最高行政法院的看法那我們這一屆不管是設法法制委員會的委員甚至是全院的委員那背著責任之重啊"},{"start":3002.625,"end":3028.012,"text":"在這個法律裡面 納稅者以民為保護納稅者的名義所要通過的稅務行政事件審理法所產生最後的法律的效果運作的效果反而是在限縮限制納稅者的權利我完全沒有這個意圖我也根本不會同意這樣子的立法政策"},{"start":3029.249,"end":3044.427,"text":"所以我覺得就這整個法律案我必須要在這個時候清楚的強烈的表達到目前為止我看不到去立這個特別法的必要性"},{"start":3045.996,"end":3072.527,"text":"甚至我看不到去立這個特別法有辦法達成它所聲稱的強化納稅者權益保障的功能這兩件事情我都看不到這兩件事情我都看不到因為這兩件事情我都看不到所以我對於現在整個稅務行政事件審理法另外搞一個專法"},{"start":3074.039,"end":3096.277,"text":"另外搞一個專法的必要性我是保持強烈的保留的看法我是保持著強烈的保留的看法因為我不知道過了這樣子的專法到底促進了什麼納稅者權益的保護反而是在程序上面給這些納稅者給我們一般"},{"start":3100.714,"end":3127.022,"text":"在納稅的人民在程序上面更多不利的處分跟限縮所謂何來無法理解所謂何來無法理解那第二個在講完了整部法律我對於整部法律我所抱持的強烈保留的見解"},{"start":3129.281,"end":3136.044,"text":"我現在還沒到反對兩個字啦但我必須要跟你們講快要逐漸升級到反對了之後我們回來第十條看我來驗證我剛剛所講的是什麼意思因為有的時候啊"},{"start":3153.531,"end":3180.495,"text":"說一些衝向的訴訟法的原理原則跟在整個訴訟法的法典上面的安排上到底要有什麼可能對於一般沒有學訴訟法的人會有理解上的困難我們回到現在正在討論的第十條第十條在處理的是在稅務行政事件裡面停止執行或者訴訟程序停止"},{"start":3181.738,"end":3205.664,"text":"的制度在停止執行的制度上面我想要請教的第一個問題是第十條目前的規範跟目前在行政訴訟法裡面針對提起行政訴訟以後的停止執行兩者之間差別在哪裡差別的理由在哪裡"},{"start":3208.01,"end":3234.399,"text":"這個是我的第一個問題那為什麼會有這樣子的問題我們先具體的來看你們說在第二項我也先從第一項開始講啦原處分或決定的執行除法律另有規定外不應提起行政訴訟而停止第十條第一項的問題是說它規範的必要性何在現行的行政訴訟法不就採行這樣的原則嗎我有說錯嗎"},{"start":3238.419,"end":3239.662,"text":"先從第一項開始看好嗎第一項把它再寫一次的理由是什麼"},{"start":3253.757,"end":3271.241,"text":"黃委員要繼續是嗎沒有 我在等他回答好 那個我先跟委員說明一下那個 你兩個問題嘛因為不好意思啊 主席我的問題不需要您歸納我沒有歸納你現在我停下來就是在等他回答好 那讓他準備一下是 請他回答我跟委員會說明一下因為現在我們在針對第十條論因為委員剛到"},{"start":3273.402,"end":3279.967,"text":"那我們上回的處理呢因為那個黃委員有提議啊就是對11條到第16條以及第25條分別涉及到包括了這個"},{"start":3292.142,"end":3306.228,"text":"協力義務以及相關的事項所以我們全部都沒有處理那今天處理的就是除了這兩個部分以外的其他部分那麼因為我們上次處理到第十條那麼大家都是在"},{"start":3307.088,"end":3327.957,"text":"沒有討論那兩個部分的前提之下去討論稅審法那圖理到自納金的問題不過呢因為剛剛黃委員有說明了因為從包括了委員會的報告 詢答到公聽會以及大體討論那黃委員基本上是對稅審法整體的架構跟行政訴訟法的差異持保留態度那因為有在場委員在所以我們委員"},{"start":3329.898,"end":3340.28,"text":"我們就讓黃委員就這個比較屬於廣泛討論上位的整體架構的部分我們就請司法院列席機關來做說明好不好好那我們就請列席機關說明"},{"start":3345.247,"end":3347.829,"text":"主席還有委員長我先講一個大的方向就是呈黃委員所指教的沒錯這部法它有一個出發點是在貫徹人民的基本權利保障但是我們在關係文書上司法院也寫得很清楚就是除了這個之外這部法還有一個很重要的就是要維護依法科稅跟公平科稅原則"},{"start":3373.288,"end":3390.297,"text":"那所以很多的就是像那個總額還有像那個協力義務很多的這些規定事實上是從就是說要貫徹的依法科稅跟公平科稅這原則底下那個所那個下來的那另外就是有關於就是說那個立法體現的問題確實沒有錯就是說"},{"start":3393.418,"end":3420.972,"text":"那所以就是這部稅審法呢它是做了一些特別規定那為什麼我們會看到說在行政訴訟法呢也會有同樣的那個有一些那個重複規定那是為了就是讓整個體系那個清楚啊就是說像在那個第十條第一項跟第二項這個確實是有那個重複規定可是就是說它的那個第三項這個地方呢它一個例外的一個規定就是說它這時候呢"},{"start":3422.052,"end":3443.321,"text":"必要的時候呢是要提供那個擔保後那個停止執行了這是一個特別規定我只是舉例但是你突然這樣子一個規定之後他會讓整個那個體系看起來非常那個奇怪那所以呢就是說又把它那個重複在第一項跟第二項那我只是簡單的做一個簡單說明那等一下由那個陳庭長繼續好陳庭長請說明"},{"start":3448.57,"end":3469.048,"text":"關於丁丁這部專法的必要性那謝謝委員的指教那我想這部專法有它的必要性其實它的特殊點也就是我們這部法案的亮點我覺得應該就是我們在納保法要求總額主義也就是在一次的稅務紛爭裡面法院必須具體來認定"},{"start":3470.809,"end":3489.558,"text":"你應該繳的稅額到底是多少錢法院你就要核實去認定下來不要讓案件來來回回在行政機關之間在行政機關跟法院之間所以我們在納保法規定的基礎上進而"},{"start":3490.818,"end":3510.38,"text":"去增加了一些的條文就是要來落實總額主義在訴訟上建構了這些的配套措施這些的配套措施是一般行政訴訟法所沒有的所以我們必須有訂定專法的必要"},{"start":3512.261,"end":3528.249,"text":"我想這個是一個簡單的回應那至於委員剛才有指教的就是說我們這部法好像對納稅者權利的保護好像似乎其實是不夠的或者是沒有的那我想"},{"start":3528.709,"end":3553.804,"text":"其實這一部法律確實是要保障納稅者的權利因為納稅者有依據法律納稅這是他的權利也是義務這是納保法明文規定的所以他依據法律到底該納多少的稅我想這是法院的責任我們有權我們有義務來核實的認定那至於"},{"start":3554.844,"end":3581.502,"text":"為什麼委員剛才有講說我們好像這部法裡面有增加了一些的協力義務是更不利益於納稅義務人士行政訴訟法所沒有的那我想其實這裡是有誤解的因為我們有做了一個比較目前我們本草案的十一十二條十三條的這一些"},{"start":3582.543,"end":3589.347,"text":"科與納稅義務人的協力義務其實在行政訴訟法裡面122條、125條之一166到168條、121條這一些都有協力義務的規定其實並沒有新科與納稅義務人新增的一個協力義務"},{"start":3607.796,"end":3626.866,"text":"只是這一部法他想要強化納稅義務人的協力義務所以在法律效果上有一部分可能是比較強的教諸於現行的行政訴訟法有一些是比較強的一個效果的規定但是"},{"start":3627.906,"end":3641.351,"text":"這個比較強的效果的規定也不排除法官可以回歸適用到行政訴訟法相關法律效果的規定也就是說其實我們在給法官了好幾項選擇的工具"},{"start":3643.212,"end":3666.057,"text":"他可以怎麼樣去做去督促納稅義務人來履行他的這個協力義務那這是我想要先釐清的那關於委員剛才講說在處罰處分這一塊沒有協力義務的適用並且舉了最高行政法院的一些的裁判那我想"},{"start":3666.957,"end":3682.994,"text":"那我們去搜尋看檢視的結果其實表示相關法律見解的這幾個判決都是同一位法官的法律見解那至於其他的"},{"start":3683.934,"end":3710.544,"text":"法官或其他的庭最高行政法院其他庭我們目前沒有檢索出來也表示一樣的見解所以這是不是在修法之前實務上穩定並一致的見解我們不敢這麼說因為我們沒有檢索到其他的法官或者是其他的審判庭有表示同樣的見解另外其實就如上次所講的"},{"start":3711.204,"end":3738.489,"text":"行政訴訟法125條在111年已經修正了它就是有增訂一個協力義務的規定而這個協力義務是一個一般性原則的規定它並沒有去區分說處罰處分就不適用或者是哪一種的處分就不適用協力義務那我想這是必須先說明的而且另外我們想要強調的是說"},{"start":3740.709,"end":3766.397,"text":"關於協力義務的這一個要求就是因為它在行政法領域公法領域的特殊性它所謂的特殊性也就是之前我有跟各位委員報告就是我們行政訴訟它不僅僅是要保障當事人的訴訟權益它也是要在確保國家行政權的合法行使"},{"start":3767.477,"end":3787.987,"text":"所以在行政訴訟領域我們才沒有像民事訴訟一樣當事人可以就自認就對照主張自認不爭執就不用經過舉證就可以認定這個事實是真實我們沒有這樣子一個適用那我們也沒有訴訟標的的認諾也就是說今天你只要認"},{"start":3789.968,"end":3810.797,"text":"認為說原告只要認諾他就會收到敗訴的判決所以在行政訴訟並沒有這樣子的一些像民事訴訟的這些規定的適用目的就是因為他是要確保國家行政權的合法行使"},{"start":3811.277,"end":3833.735,"text":"因此事實的真相到底是如何在行政法的領域是很重要的一件事情而事實的真相不能夠光只靠法院來職權調查因為法院職權調查有它的限制那我們又不像刑事訴訟它有搜索扣押這種強制處分"},{"start":3835.857,"end":3858.676,"text":"的規定所以我們就特別強調在發現事實的這一塊當事人有協力義務協助法院來一起發現事實究竟是如何法院才能據而判斷行政機關行政權的行使是不是合法的"},{"start":3859.136,"end":3886.638,"text":"那我想這一個竭力義務的要求其實它是貫穿在行政法各個領域都有相關的規定那就舉例像今天早上就看到新聞說某一個高檔的餐廳好像顧客去吃了之後就上吐下瀉就有這種情況所以主管機關立刻就介入去調查然後而且就"},{"start":3887.338,"end":3910.008,"text":"可以要求業者你要提供相關的一些的資料那如果所以這個時候相關業者就有提供資料就有提供一些文書證據資料的義務當主管機關查核發現你確實有疏失的時候他接著就做了一個行政處罰所以我想這樣子一個"},{"start":3911.369,"end":3935.808,"text":"這種的例子這種的規定在行政法各個領域其實是非常普遍的一個情形那進而拉到我們的稅務領域來講其實在稅捐基增法稅捐機關在行政調查的時候他的稅捐基增法就有明文的規定這個時候他可以通知"},{"start":3937.049,"end":3955.848,"text":"當事人他提出文書、帳簿、憑證這些的資料而且你也可以通知他到場來接受稅捐調查人員的備詢,也就是接受詢問如果他無正當理由違反這些的話"},{"start":3957.436,"end":3974.149,"text":"稅捐激增法進而有一個處罰的規定還會處當事人罰還那我想在稅捐激增的這個行政調查領域其實他都已經科與當事人一些的協力義務如果你違反他也有一些處罰的規定"},{"start":3975.61,"end":3999.213,"text":"那這個協力義務延伸到訴訟程序上來我們到訴訟程序上來要求當事人一樣的提出這些的證據資料我想這樣邏輯才會是一貫的啊不能你在行政調查程序有這些義務反而到訴訟中沒有這些義務而且我們所要求"},{"start":4001.035,"end":4013.682,"text":"我們本法所要求當事人提出的這些文書證據資料必須是依照法律規定他本來就有提供到稅捐機關或其他行政機關的義務"},{"start":4015.903,"end":4037.358,"text":"這是因為其他法律已經規定你有這個提出的義務那所以我們在這個基礎上要求你在訴訟中就是因為你在前階段你沒有提出那我們在訴訟程序中認為有必要要求你提出你原本依法就應該要提出的這些相關的證據資料我想這個也沒有"},{"start":4038.679,"end":4054.054,"text":"更超過其他法律的規定那這是我想關於協力義務的這一塊的補充那如果回歸到我們本條第十條的規定來講的話那其實第十條的規定"},{"start":4056.115,"end":4078.926,"text":"是應該可以說是我們參照稅務事件的特性量身打造的一個規定那當然他的第一項跟第二項是目前既有的規定或者是我們整合了訴願法跟目前行政訴訟法的相關規定把停止裁定"},{"start":4082.403,"end":4109.804,"text":"才定停止執行的要件把它整合與以民文化這是目前行政訴訟法跟訴願法的規定以及實務的見解實務的做法就是如此但是接著後面從第三項以下的一些的規定其實是我們研修團隊參考了德國的財務法院法的規定就這個"},{"start":4110.865,"end":4138.302,"text":"停止執行的這樣一個暫時權力保護的措施所做的一個優化的規定也就是在我們一般的行政訴訟當停止執行的時候是沒有公擔保停止執行的這個制度那我們考慮到為了要確保國家的財政的稅收的穩定那我們明定說這個時候是可以命"},{"start":4138.962,"end":4161.284,"text":"他向原處分機關提供擔保以後才強制執行那第四項的規定第四項的規定是說考慮到法院的負荷的能量所以如果今天這個案件還沒有訴訟細數在法院就有先申請停止執行的必要"},{"start":4162.204,"end":4187.125,"text":"這個時候原則上你應該是向行政機關去申請當行政機關拒絕的時候你才能夠到法院來申請或者是我們但書所列的這三款的例外的事由的時候你才可以直接向法院申請那我想最特別的應該是第六項我想要特別強調的是我們這裡的停止執行"},{"start":4188.306,"end":4209.447,"text":"並不單單只是停止強制執行的程序而已我們停止的是原處分的效力把這個原來行政處分的效力都把它停了還有就停止的是執行的程序或者是程序的續行基於這個原來"},{"start":4210.448,"end":4234.895,"text":"處分後續的 續刑的程序也都一併停止所以這裡停止執行的效力其實是 範圍是比較大的不光是強制執行程序的停止而已那也就正是因為我們把原處分的效力一併停止因此就會產生出說"},{"start":4237.217,"end":4255.013,"text":"致納金,而且我們這邊的致納金是針對稅捐基深法20條所規定的致納金,也就是我可以講完嗎?因為還沒講到第9項,第9項上次的針點第10項"},{"start":4260.694,"end":4275.394,"text":"第十項我們針點的是第十項我要講第十項就是因為先要釐清的是第六項我們停止執行的效力其實是包含原行政處分的效力的那所以因此第十條的規定就是"},{"start":4275.774,"end":4290.139,"text":"在講到滯納金的問題那這裡的滯納金我們是指稅捐基增法20條的滯納金也就是依照稅法的規定如果你預期繳納稅捐因此科徵的滯納金"},{"start":4291.559,"end":4306.566,"text":"在這裡科徵的自納金其實是非常高的它是三天就要科徵你研製繳納金額的百分之一換句話說也就是三十天一個月是百分之十"},{"start":4307.566,"end":4333.025,"text":"的滯納金所以這裡柯真的滯納金是非常重的因為我們考量到說滯納金其實他只是要督促當事人履行他繳納的義務而已但是如果今天法院已經下了一個停止執行的裁定把原處分的效力都停止凍結住那這個時候呢我們就參考了德國財務"},{"start":4334.948,"end":4340.344,"text":"德国财务法院法的规定认为说你就已经他就没有所谓的"},{"start":4341.966,"end":4369.758,"text":"延遲繳納的問題啊因為你這個原來命他的科稅處分效率都被凍結了他就沒有預期繳納的問題因此我們就認為說那這時候是不是不應該科徵他滯納金呢而且應該把他以前所繳納的這一些的稅款都一併回復原狀退還給當事人所以其實這個是這個我們法治的基本"},{"start":4370.838,"end":4396.623,"text":"這一條的基本的觀念那第十條規定的是說行政法院裁定原處分停止執行期間不得科增滯納金那各位如果只看這個條文很可能只會陷入說是不是法院裁定停止以後的這一段期間才沒有滯納金的問題那我們想要跟各位講的是說"},{"start":4397.723,"end":4412.411,"text":"如果各位手上有這一張圖表的話這個下面的部分下半段是司法院的版本也就是根據我們第十條但書的第二款的規定"},{"start":4413.871,"end":4430.445,"text":"他是分已徵起稅款還是未徵起稅款如果是未徵起稅款你這個稅款都沒有繳納過的話那這個就是本來就應該從你原因繳納期間屆滿的次日一直到填發訴訟終結後填發"},{"start":4433.168,"end":4452.685,"text":"填發補繳稅款的繳納通知書之日子也就是說這個時間會拉到最前面的時間一直到最後面他去發了一個判決確定之後他去填發繳款書之日子這一段的時間我們都是用這個"},{"start":4454.847,"end":4476.866,"text":"停止執行的利息也就是我們本項規定的利息來取代滯納金是因為我們的想法是說你就是因為沒有繳納稅款那你讓你延遲到最後繳納而且你是敗訴所以應該回歸到你原來應該繳納的時間這一段你至少要付利息"},{"start":4478.528,"end":4506.107,"text":"雖然不用繳支納金但是要付利息所以其實它整個時段不會是從裁定停止之日起所以它會拉到最前面的這個時點那第一款的規定是說以增期稅款那當然我們不曉得以增期的稅款時間點是什麼它可能是落在前面的任何一個時點所以如果是以增期稅款的話就會從退還之日"},{"start":4507.628,"end":4527.219,"text":"到填發這個繳納通知書之日子這一段這一段來計爭這個我們本項規定的利息那至於它前面的這一些為什麼不再爭了呢是因為你爭取就是你本來就已經有繳納了我只是不知道你時間點是在哪一個時間繳納"},{"start":4528.26,"end":4551.09,"text":"但你繳納之後其實國家就收了這一筆的稅款那理論上國家就可以應用啊至少有法定支息嘛國家那所以就不用納稅醫務人在遭受敗訴確定之後再回頭來繳這一段的利息那這是我以上初步的說明謝謝好那麼請黃委員那其他委員對於其他部分好可以接續詢問來請"},{"start":4553.325,"end":4581.852,"text":"那個剛剛司法院的代表拉拉扎扎講了一堆讓問題根本就沒有辦法聚焦今天請你來是針對問題回答的倒不是請你來這邊發表演說的請司法院的代表在回答問題的時候先注意這個基本原則第一個我先從總體上面來講你的這個特色就是要採取種族主義的原則"},{"start":4583.188,"end":4611.378,"text":"你要擴大這個訴訟及判例的客觀範圍達到紛爭解決一次性的要求所以你回去檢視一下嘛我先姑且不論你現在的條文有沒有滿足這樣的立法目的甚至在試圖要達到這樣子立法目的的時候有沒有注意到當事人程序權的保障這些我都姑且不論你回去盤點看看為了要達到你所謂的總和主義"},{"start":4612.908,"end":4637.528,"text":"這樣子的立法目的你動用了幾個條文你動用了幾個條文那這幾個條文有辦法正當化要求本院給你們一個審理的特別法喔我是打一個超級大的問號那第二個部分就有關當事人的協力義務啊等等等等你講了一堆我總結來"},{"start":4640.295,"end":4668.292,"text":"簡單的回覆啊 簡單的語語回覆啊行政訴訟的目的當然就是從當事人權力救濟保障的觀點再加上國家行政權的合法行使本來就是這樣嘛不管在哪一個脈絡的行政訴訟其目的都是這個東西嘛這個有什麼好說的稅務行政事件到底有何不同"},{"start":4670.189,"end":4689.839,"text":"當你要去強調它不僅僅是當事人的權力救濟還包括了國家公權力行為的合法行使的時候我們從抽象的法理論進入了法實務所有的人問的第一個問題是在您所指涉的細貞領域範圍當中我們現在存在的"},{"start":4694.341,"end":4719.277,"text":"到底是over enforcement還是under enforcement什麼意思 我再講得更具體一點在你這個特定的領域當中是存在的是國家的公權力的合法行使的這個目標沒有實現它所產生的狀況是當事人權益的損害還是國家稅收的減損"},{"start":4722.008,"end":4743.841,"text":"你要處理的到底是哪一個側面的問題這個就是over enforcement under enforcement的問題回到現實的社會上面來看一般的人民一般的納稅者大家在抱怨的是什麼大家在抱怨的是國家科稅的權利跟為了要科稅所做的伴隨的"},{"start":4745.782,"end":4766.377,"text":"強制的行政行為非常的強啊非常的強啊那沒有under enforcement的問題啊全部都是over enforcement的問題啊在這樣的情況之下你相應的回到你要處理的狀況是什麼你要回到處理的狀況是你要怎麼強化納稅者權利的保護啊"},{"start":4767.037,"end":4788.338,"text":"而不是回過頭來講說這個是要克制國家公權力的合法行使克制國家公權力的合法行使如果現在所產生的狀況是對於納稅者的基本權在實務上面不管是實體上還是程序上所造成的侵害是普遍的而且是人民不滿的"},{"start":4790.107,"end":4812.384,"text":"這個時候你在稅務事件審理法所謂的特殊性你就要取向於這個實務問題的解決也就是怎麼強化納稅者權利的保護第三個部分你剛剛援引了一堆在行政法規當中針對科稅的處分有調查權如何如何的你講的完全沒錯啊你講的完全沒錯啊"},{"start":4814.226,"end":4827.215,"text":"第一個階段國家在形成行政處分的過程當中我們的立法者從過去到現在給了行政機關多大的行政調查權力法律給行政機關的行政調查權力還不夠大可以做的事情多了這麼大的行政調查權力"},{"start":4842.442,"end":4863.078,"text":"稅捐基金機關動用了國家所賦予的行政調查權利去蒐集證據去調查事實最後做出了一個什麼 行政處分針對那個行政處分的合法性跟那個行政處分所應該具有的基礎事實行政機關當然要負責任啊要不然我前面給你那麼大的權利要幹嘛"},{"start":4872.54,"end":4880.668,"text":"就是行政機關所做出來的這個行政處分人民不滿嘛我才會去尋求什麼行政救濟啊這不是最簡單的原則嗎那所以剛剛按照司法院論述的標準我已經快要聽不下去啦你是不是對於行政救濟制度啊的定位"},{"start":4899.025,"end":4920.405,"text":"有根本制度功能上面的誤認如果連司法院的官員甚至當過行政法院法官的都是這樣認定的話那難怪啊為什麼行政法院會被稱為敗訴法院人民在那邊找不到正義找不到救濟啊"},{"start":4923.083,"end":4941.428,"text":"我再說一次啊立法者已經給行政機關特別是稅務機關啊一拖拉鼓行政調查的權利啊對人民對於納稅者那些公權力的行使壓迫感大不大強制力強不強每一個被追稅過的人啊心裡都有答案"},{"start":4950.283,"end":4976.144,"text":"壓迫感非常的大對他們的生活所會造成的影響非常的強烈結果給你們搞了半天行政機關有多少人動用所有的在行政機關內部的行政人員行使立法者給他們的調查權搞了半天做一個行政處分出來了以後人民尋求救濟"},{"start":4977.628,"end":4998.187,"text":"行政機關在行政徵送在行政救濟程序上面該負的責任是什麼去證明我當初所做的行政處分是有憑有據的怎麼會把人民在行政處分做成前階段在公法上面所負有的配合義務繼續延伸到訴訟上來在訴訟上"},{"start":5003.516,"end":5023.741,"text":"人民面對的是一整個政府一整個行政機關前面已經被你調查成這個樣子你做成行政處分我質疑你行政處分的合法性我質疑你做成這個行政處分的事實基礎結果我到訴訟上還有配合你行政機關"},{"start":5026.961,"end":5053.223,"text":"從你在行政處分做成前的實體法規我的配合調查還要繼續延伸到行政訴訟那難怪人民在行政法院裡面輸到脫褲子啊那這個就是為什麼人民對我們現在在行政遵送程序當中到底有沒有辦法真的捍衛人民的權利大家所抱持的質疑嘛"},{"start":5055.168,"end":5064.212,"text":"特別是在稅務訴訟的領域當中稅法很複雜耶一個人民啊面對一群在搞稅務行政處分的行政官一群耶還有調查權耶結果你們搞了半天做了行政處分出來我到人民到法院是要救濟的耶請問你現在跟人民講NO NO NO NO NO"},{"start":5087.062,"end":5108.291,"text":"你還有很多配合義務啊你沒有履行那個配合義務在訴訟上面還有不利的法律效果我老實講真的人民到那個時候只剩下回家抱著棉被褲啊這個是我跟你們今天所採取的立場根本不同之處"},{"start":5110.424,"end":5137.062,"text":"我們可以有不同的價值選擇這個就是為什麼在立法院要經過審議討論嘛在行政訴訟法裡面有很多大家每個大家都有自己的一套理論我個人都尊重學者在追求的是學術上面的精益求精每一個有每一個人的學說我都尊重"},{"start":5138.072,"end":5166.104,"text":"回到立法院來就是政策選擇我今天可以很清楚的跟司法院講在這件事情上面我跟你們所採取的立場完全不一樣因此我對於你們試圖在稅務行政事件審理法所做這樣的處理我無法認同這樣我相信話講得很白了當然我黃國昌今天在司法法制委員會做這麼直白的"},{"start":5167.904,"end":5194.507,"text":"政策立場跟價值選擇的表明我要承擔政治責任公民看完了我的發言覺得黃國昌你無理取鬧人家司法院講得很棒啊非常的有道理啊在稅務行政訴訟事件當中即使是罰還處分人民在訴訟程序本來就應該有協力義務沒有盡到那個協力義務給你不利的法律效果怕你輸剛好而已"},{"start":5195.612,"end":5223.568,"text":"可能有人抱持這樣的看法我尊重但我相信有更多的一群人是完全不認同這樣的價值選擇而我們作為民意代表就是要在這邊幫他們發聲第三個部分講到具體的部分就來講我已經提示你們很多次了來來來來來現在講到第十條第十條第一項你們承認是行政訴訟重複規範"},{"start":5226.038,"end":5252.657,"text":"原署份或決定的執行處法律例有規定外不應提起行政訴訟而停止這個是行政訴訟法的ABC本來的基本原則你這裡的規定跟行政訴訟法一模一樣沒什麼好說的現在來看第二項行政訴訟起訴前或系署中有下列情況行政法院可以依申請裁定停止執行來把依申請三個字劃起來把依申請三個字劃起來"},{"start":5258.741,"end":5280.451,"text":"來再看一下我們行政訴訟法行政訴訟法116條第二項行政訴訟系屬中行政法院如任委員處分或決定之執行將發生難以回復的損害且有急迫的情勢那這個跟你們第二項的第二款的事有差不多嗎行政訴訟法是得依職權或依申請裁定停止執行"},{"start":5281.584,"end":5307.043,"text":"那我現在要請教在稅務行政訴訟當中有什麼樣的特殊性把依職權三個字刪掉有什麼樣的特殊性我打破腦袋我想不懂啊一個行政法院在稅務事件當中發生了原處分他的合法性有狀況有急迫的情勢他為什麼不可以依職權我們一項一項來啦"},{"start":5312.629,"end":5332.957,"text":"我其實上一次我已經跟你們講過 要你們回去盤點結果今天來一樣浪費大家一堆時間在那邊講有的沒有的從ABC開始重新講謝謝 因為委員提出的是第10條的第"},{"start":5336.24,"end":5359.198,"text":"二項當中跟行政訴訟法第116條的第二項的差異那麼跟委員報告我們上次討論的是第十條的第十項的不得課徵自納金那剛剛列席官代表呢也就他們對於不得課徵自納金的原則原理做了說明那的確我們委員對於第十條的各項都可以提出那事實上剛剛呢"},{"start":5360.318,"end":5370.604,"text":"黃委員提出的那個包括一稅申法提起行政訴訟後和行政訴訟的相關規定的效力到底有何關聯其實本席也很想知道因為這跟第十條第十項不得客徵滯納金的原則原理是有關聯的那現在呢"},{"start":5375.306,"end":5399.972,"text":"黃委員又提出了這個第二項的部分醫生請那為了什麼醫職權的部分這個是不是請說明一下那當然是不是也可以就剛剛黃委員在前一輪發言當中至少我這邊聽到如果說當事人依稅審法提起行政訴訟後提起這個訴訟後和行政訴訟它的效力和行政訴訟的效力有什麼差別"},{"start":5401.144,"end":5413.395,"text":"我再講一次就是剛剛在前一輪的提問當中有提到當事人依稅審法提起訴訟後那麼這樣的一個前面的裁定的效力和"},{"start":5414.741,"end":5424.149,"text":"依行政訴訟法提出的這個規定有什麼差別啦因為我們現在本來第十項在處理滯納金嘛那滯納金你們剛剛前面講了嘛為什麼你們認為他停徵的這個時點呢要是用你們圖示的這個樣目那現在呢請就這兩個部分分別說明一個是黃委員剛剛講的根據行政訴訟法第二項的相關的規定抑制權為什麼這裡沒有第二個是你們剛剛講的這個表啊"},{"start":5450.007,"end":5469.797,"text":"我先回答黃委員的問題就是關於行政訴訟法停止執行116條的第二項確實是規定說可以依職權或依申請來裁定停止執行但是因為我們考量到說實務上目前停止執行全部都是依申請"},{"start":5471.813,"end":5496.094,"text":"我們還沒有看過依職權的那所以因此呢在這裡考量到因此在這裡就把它規定成為依申請不好意思喔我可以繼續追問嗎你說實務上全部都是依申請那代表的是什麼代表了我們現在的行政法院的法官無視立法者在行政訴訟法上面所為的介面"},{"start":5497.133,"end":5522.051,"text":"要求他們對於原行政處分的合法性是不是顯有疑義是不是有急迫的情況為職務上的注意嗎是不是代表了我們現在你剛所講的你們會寫成這樣是因為實務上都是依申請沒有依職權那我聽到這個就大驚失色啦立法者在行政訴訟法給所有行政法官的借命是什麼"},{"start":5523.038,"end":5551.868,"text":"也就是行政法院的法官應該遵守的行為規範是什麼你們必須要依照職權去注意原刑尊處分的合法性是不是顯有問題是不是有依職權停止執行的必要那如果你這樣講的話等於司法院今天在立法院承認了行政法院的法官把立法者在行政訴訟法裡面所科與行政法院法官依照職權加以顧慮的義務全部都是當成空氣"},{"start":5554.588,"end":5575.338,"text":"然後先被你們全部當成空氣再回來稅務事件審理法藉由我們的修法來正當化你們把當初立法者在行政訴訟法對行政法院法官所為的借命當成空氣那你是在陷我們現在所有在審這個法案的委員於不義嗎"},{"start":5577.739,"end":5595.848,"text":"請回答是為什麼沒有依照一職權這三個字也放進去報告委員是因為目前行政訴訟法116條的停止執行的要件他是只有明定說必須發生難以回復的損害而且有急迫情形"},{"start":5598.686,"end":5623.809,"text":"那這個所以到底有沒有難以回復的損害或有沒有怎麼樣一個急迫情形其實法院是無從得知的那所以其實當有這種要件事實發生的時候就會出當事人就會促成當事人來申請法院他主張說有這一些的要件那所以因此在實務上我們才比較會常看到的是當事人申請"},{"start":5624.749,"end":5647.331,"text":"他主張他已經符合了這一些要件那法院來加以判斷那至於第一款就是說合法性嫌有異議這個是規定在訴願法裡面那我們這一次是把訴願法的這個規定然後把它加到我們這一個停止執行的要件之一以上報告"},{"start":5648.676,"end":5675.259,"text":"您的意思是說在稅務行政事件當中不會有發生難以回復的損害或有急迫的情勢是這個意思嗎因為聽起來不是是因為委員剛才是說為什麼我們沒有依職權因為本來法條是規定依職權或依申請那我剛才回答是說因為我們實務上目前大部分都是依申請來裁定停止執行那我要回答的只是就是說因為"},{"start":5676.52,"end":5696,"text":"目前行政訴訟法116條規定的要件它是要有會發生難以回復的損害或者是有急迫的情形那這種應該是當事人知道的最清楚當他有遇到這種情形的話他就會覺得他有申請裁定停止執行的必要"},{"start":5696.4,"end":5717.199,"text":"所以他就會跟法院提出申請所以是因此我們在實務上比較目前看到的都是當事人申請因為法院實在很難以依職權去查之說是不是有難以回復的損害就是最後一句你認為法院難以依職權去了解當事人有難以回復的損害這個意思嗎來 黃委員"},{"start":5720.425,"end":5748.019,"text":"我先確定喔 因為在你剛剛的陳述喔出現了兩種不同版本的陳述一個是全部目前都是醫生請一個是大部分都是醫生請請問是全部醫生請還是大部分醫生請 說清楚先停一下你沒有做查證的工作 你坐在立法院裡面信口開河喔"},{"start":5751.212,"end":5769.719,"text":"不好意思請你把喇叭按起來抱歉不是啊 你沒有辦法把你個人的經驗普遍化所有的狀況啊這個不是最基本的嗎那否則的話司法院要做什麼實證調查你就隨機抽一個法官來問他的審判經驗就好啦"},{"start":5771.074,"end":5793.05,"text":"報告委員 那因為我們稅審法的研修會研修委員也有很多最高型中層法院所以嘛 你先不要推到其他委員會去啦你講到委員會的話 我就會回到上一次的問題啦你委員會的記錄到底有沒有要交出來啊報告委員我們早就交了是不是 沒關係啦 回來回來我們繼續往下走"},{"start":5797.065,"end":5811.912,"text":"所以是大部分一申請還是全部一申請先回答這個問題因為我很在意啊如果是全部一申請的話那現在的行政訴訟法現在的行政訴訟法那個一職權不就淪為巨文了嗎"},{"start":5814.346,"end":5833.157,"text":"請司法院因為剛剛委員是很嚴肅的在請教這個問題因為我也很清楚聽到一開始我們在炒你這個條文的時候是說過去在稅務行政事件上行政法院並未有過依職權來進行行政訴訟法停止執行的裁定"},{"start":5833.877,"end":5855.103,"text":"但是現在黃委員非常關心 那還是請你們去查明一下不過剛剛我們追問的意思是說因為似乎有難以回復的情況認為在稅務行政事件上法院不太可能知道而依職務支持權去停止執行你們是這個意思那因為剛剛莊委員舉手了 我們聽聽莊委員的意見"},{"start":5858.504,"end":5877.513,"text":"其實我的看法是這樣 光黃委員的說法這個部分我也認為有一部分對但有一部分其實我有不同的看法啦你像譬如說你在講說我們是借命義務 那是立法者的一個借命我倒不認為"},{"start":5878.573,"end":5893.574,"text":"我倒認為是整個程序上的法源本來就得依職權這是立法者授給我們這個整個法官你可以去做的倒不是說這叫立法者的一個借命啦所以這個部分我倒認為 聽到這樣"},{"start":5895.717,"end":5921.046,"text":"你剛剛的講法才是對的啦黃委員這個講法我是比較不贊同啦但就是涉及到你在第10條裡面喔我們大家一直在爭執說整個行政法院在整個行政訴訟裡面你到底當事人的協力義務你知道有時候你法官在指揮訴訟你常常有時候你要去問當事人要去問當事人要調查事情到底行政法院到底是說你一定是要依職權職域去進行"},{"start":5922.626,"end":5937.993,"text":"還是很單純的這個是整個法官就站在聽訟完全是讓當事人去做一個進行因為涉及到國家的一個科稅那這樣的一個高權行為裡面你到最後你法院行政法院要一次來做這樣的一個解決的話過去來講的話大家都認為行政法院是一個敗訴的一個法院理由也很多啦有些案件"},{"start":5949.198,"end":5964.46,"text":"到底行政法院實際上是不是可以完全像一般普通法院這樣把案子審理得很清楚我自己過去一些案子我都非常存疑啦但是呢今天我倒要跟主席建議的是"},{"start":5966.022,"end":5987.712,"text":"你如果硬怕,你如果調人走不下去的,你就跟電話一樣嘛,我們就跟他做一些保留嘛。那其實如果廳長裡面也可以,或者副院長裡面也可以反過來,換個角度,到委員會裡面啊,當然未必要那麼強勢,那你就把它當成,"},{"start":5989.107,"end":6011.228,"text":"把他當成,你看指揮訴訟一樣,你給他纏綿一下,說你們在留意其實你們是錯的,我知道你們不好意思去講啦,不好意思這樣去講因為立法院在這邊講的會比較抽象,會比較抽象沒有辦法去進入整個很具體的東西啦,不然剛才我看,社長你也在這"},{"start":6012.629,"end":6035.041,"text":"市長其實你也可以用你的經驗來做一個分享沒有必要去陷入這樣子抽象的一個循環的論斷不然這樣沒完沒了那因為委員跟委員之間大家互相拍謝吐槽像比如說我講 翁委員就跟我笑一笑他也不好意思跟我說我講的不對他講完我也跟他說 不錯 笑一下他也不知道我在說什麼"},{"start":6037.262,"end":6040.225,"text":"所以你也要喊喊嘛 你們親自聽聽就好這大家說完了 大家每一個人變成大家在行使他的職權的時候有的"},{"start":6049.025,"end":6052.647,"text":"平常不專業但突然某一個部分會變得很專業因為他有準備有時候是很專業那突然沒睡醒或者心情受到影響來了也會失去那個準頭都有可能但反而司法院我反而會認為說你們是身經百戰的那未必在"},{"start":6069.758,"end":6093.584,"text":"在司法法治委員會把立法委員當學生這可能你們也未必會這樣敢這樣去做但是也是該背不抗把整個在整個訴訟過程裡面你們過去整個養成裡面這一些這麼豐富的一個經驗就大膽去講那我再看今天因為大家談的都是比較抽象的一個概念幾乎都是回顧到整個大體討論的那你回顧到大體討論你說這原理原則"},{"start":6097.985,"end":6125.268,"text":"講不清了啦就講不清了啦就像譬如說一個立法裡面像昨天你們大家在談的說日本有這樣的規定啦那台灣我們為什麼日本人是瘋子喔日本人是笨蛋喔人家會這樣定那我們當然也要去學人家這句話我也常講的啊我也常在舉說那德國也是這樣規定的跟我們就不一樣啦所以會各取所需會各取所需那所以走不下去的話我就建議啊就都先給它保留了"},{"start":6127.014,"end":6130.898,"text":"本來我們上次委員會就依黃委員的建議剛離開的黃委員的建議他就11條到16條是因為涉及到當事人協力義務的部分這個他很有意見所以我們那時候沒有處理"},{"start":6149.736,"end":6176.389,"text":"然後相關的稅審官的設置在第25條我們也完全沒有處理因此今天我們是就上次有處理的第10條暫保留的部分的第10項不得課徵自納金因為這個爭點財政部跟司法院有不同的見解所以我當時主席的做法就是請兩邊的列席機關回去就"},{"start":6176.969,"end":6197.754,"text":"不得課徵自納金的部分來闡述提出他們的看法跟主張那今天會議開始我就報告了因為這第十條上次有較多委員有不同意見機關也有不同的看法所以我們就先從第十條第十項的爭點不過因為委員一到場的時候就有在就所謂的協力勿誤進行闡述"},{"start":6199.995,"end":6224.961,"text":"甚至對整個稅審法既然有行政訴訟法為什麼還有稅審法的專法的制定表達了意見所以就成如剛剛莊委員所說的有一點呢我們進入到第十條在關切第十項的時候有委員還是回到整個大體討論的思維裡面去討論本法跟行政訴訟法的一些關聯也才會有剛剛進入到第十條的"},{"start":6226.401,"end":6232.33,"text":"二項那麼所謂的這個依職權為什麼不見了因為在行政訴訟法是116條是有依職權可以提出我們這邊只剩下依申請來去討論說那到底未來行政法院在稅審法可不可以依職權"},{"start":6242.984,"end":6262.843,"text":"就有察覺到他有難以回復的損害因此就開始給他法院這個權利來停止執行是在討論這個爭點那麼因為現在有兩個一個是上次延續下來的財政部也準備好了一個是今天提出來的一個是第十條的第二項是否應該把"},{"start":6264.284,"end":6282.859,"text":"依職權或依申請同樣的融入到我們第十條第二項以及剛剛其實司法院也有講了就第十條的第十項為什麼不得課登自納金他們的原理是什麼也做了闡述了那現在就尋求委員會翁委員您是要就第二項還是就第十項好那麼就第十項的部分請"},{"start":6288.664,"end":6300.454,"text":"我不是第四 我是就第十條剛才是對就剛剛講的那個第二項其實雖然說剛剛主席有講說這個看起來我們剛討論似乎又回到之前的大體討論在比較稅審法"},{"start":6303.376,"end":6308.758,"text":"跟行政訴訟法之間的這個關係但是呢確實從第十條以下有諸多的條文的規定都是明顯和現在的行政訴訟法的規定有別那麼這也讓我們就認為說有沒有必要在稅審法這邊額外去做一些規定而且呢看起來有些規定呢是不見得是利於當事人的那以剛剛"},{"start":6329.984,"end":6345.71,"text":"大家討論的第十條的第二項的這個規定因為很清楚的在行政訴訟法的第116條裡面基本上就對於行政法院他是可以依職權或依申請裁定停止執行的而依"},{"start":6346.71,"end":6369.049,"text":"申請這個當然是可能是目前實務上面最常看到的狀況就是由當事人自己主動提出申請請求法院來裁定停止執行那麼可是呢如果說加上依職權的部分如果反正它也不見得會發生可是呢在整個的形式上來講會覺得對當事人是比較有利的如果這樣的一個角度來講的話是不是"},{"start":6373.573,"end":6402.581,"text":"行政法院也可以接受在第十條第二項這邊其實也可以再加上就行政法院得依職權或申請裁定停止執行那麼因為你這下面第一款第二款跟原來的116條的第二項裡面的規定基本上是相同執去對所以這個是我的建議就是如果說在這個議題上面因為我也相信大部分都是當事人提出申請的"},{"start":6403.749,"end":6419.045,"text":"可是如果多加兩條也不妨礙原來的規定的話其實剛綜合各位委員的意見那麼我是不是先這樣建議委員會我們第二項我們先擬一個就在第二項的第二行我們第十二頁這第十條第二項的"},{"start":6420.146,"end":6434.527,"text":"第二行行政法院得依職權或依申請加上依職權或這個四個字的一個修正動議我們先去擬一下那我們來處理那接下來就是剛剛第十項的部分"},{"start":6435.228,"end":6460.501,"text":"那麼不得課徵滯納金的部分因為那麼司法院已經表達了意見了但是呢行政院這邊財政部還沒有表達意見是不是財政部就第十項你們主張課徵滯納金的起點的範圍你們的意見主張跟基礎好不好那我們現在先請我們擬一個修正動議對第二項的部分財政部次長"},{"start":6462.213,"end":6491.281,"text":"好 謝謝主席財務這邊基本上是針對這個第十項的部分有關於就是前面行政法院裁定員處分或決定停止執行之期間不得課徵制納金這個部分我們沒有意見就是他已經開始停止執行了那當然這段期間不課徵制納金這部分我們沒有意見那我們比較介意的是說那如果這個納稅一輪最後敗訴那依照目前這個第十項的但書呢"},{"start":6491.741,"end":6507.908,"text":"他只是就這個呃他敗訴期呃就是原來應該課徵的稅捐或者是呃呃應該這個停止期間應該應該課徵的稅捐來加徵所謂的利息那我們是覺得基於這個租稅公平的考量如果這個納稅義務人他"},{"start":6510.849,"end":6533.999,"text":"在這個停止執行之前他就已經有這個像我們這邊提供的這張圖表就是講到說他如果是在複查決定之後然後我們已經發單那他有一些所謂的行就席還有就是如果他有預期沒有繳納就會有滯納金然後另外還有所謂的滯納利息"},{"start":6535.279,"end":6544.646,"text":"那這段是本來這個納稅一輪他如果今天要進入訴訟的程序的時候他必須因為他延遲繳納稅捐他必須要付一稅捐監法規定必須要繳納的滯納金或者是相關的稅法應該加徵的滯納利息"},{"start":6550.31,"end":6576.24,"text":"那如果今天納稅人已經敗訴了確定是他已經敗訴應該課徵的這個相關的本稅之外呢他原來已經預期繳納的這部分的滯納金跟滯納利息我們是財政部是覺得說基於公平課稅的原則應該要回復課徵所以我們的建議條文很簡單我們就是把原來他那個但書加息的規定呢我們今天也有擬一個修正條文就是直接把它改成"},{"start":6578.964,"end":6594.215,"text":"應該有在委員的手上來跟委員說明請大家注意到有一個應該是四頁四頁的文件上面第一行抬頭的部分寫財政部對第十條修正意見那翻到了第三頁"},{"start":6595.695,"end":6617.085,"text":"第三頁第十項我們是建議修正成行政法院裁定原處分或決定停止執行者不得課徵滯納金以及利息但經行政法院駁回納稅義務人本案請求確定者應追繳原加徵滯納金及利息"},{"start":6617.725,"end":6623.048,"text":"就是他原來該繳納的部分他原來預期繳納該負擔的這個滯納金跟滯納利息的義務我們是覺得如果他敗訴的話應該還是要仍然應該要追爭回來以上報告"},{"start":6631.735,"end":6652.662,"text":"好 那麼跟委員說明 目前我們剛剛有委員提到第二項 第十條第二項那麼行政訴訟提起前的第二行 行政法院得依職權或依申請因為依職權或這四個字 剛討論後覺得可以考慮納入我們就先擬一個修正動議目前在進行"},{"start":6653.402,"end":6671.791,"text":"那目前我們在進行的是第十項那麼剛剛因為司法院已經說明了他們的圖表的部分了那現在司法院他們認為呢他們也提出了一個圖表那也發了一個資料這個資料第三頁他們認為第十項的文字當中可以加入有底線那幾個字好 那麼剛剛黃委員請求發言 請"},{"start":6675.785,"end":6683.215,"text":"剛剛第十條處理完了第二項我們繼續往第三項下面走來看一下請司法院的代表"},{"start":6685.868,"end":6712.921,"text":"第三項的部分啦 黃委員因為剛剛您不在的時候大家有在處理要講到第十項那您要再回到第三項是嗎是我本來就是順著項次啊還是要跟委員說明一下因為上次我們處理到第十條的時候大家討論的是第十項那因為今天委員有對整個第十條表示意見所以我們就回到了第十條那麼剛剛第二項的部分意見也獲採納目前正在做修正當中那現在您要採第三項請"},{"start":6714.739,"end":6734.754,"text":"就一項一項來嘛來看一下前項請醒 行政法院於必要時可以依申請或依職權命一項原處分機關供擔保後停止執行好來把那個依申請或依職權劃底線好再看一下第六項"},{"start":6736.73,"end":6760.64,"text":"停止執行的裁定可以停止原處分或決定的效力處分或決定的執行或程序續行的全部或部分等於基礎處分做成後續處分應一併停止執行行政法院並得就後續處分的停止執行依申請並向原處分機關提供擔保把依申請三個字劃底線"},{"start":6762.739,"end":6778.685,"text":"來請說明一下就供擔保不供擔保這件事情第三項是依申請或依職權第六項是只能依申請說明一下區別對待的理由好請立軍代表針對第三項跟第六項的不同異同之處請做說明"},{"start":6784.963,"end":6809.592,"text":"第六項其實它的後段是在講說因為它會擴大機遇如果基礎處分被停止執行的話會給予到後續的處分一併要停止執行那關於後續處分停止執行的部分我們這邊確實是只有規定說依申請可以來向原處分機關提供擔保"},{"start":6812.589,"end":6830.857,"text":"至於為什麼做這樣一個區別的對待是因為我們這邊規定是說後續處分要一併停止執行這是法律明定的效果但是後續處分到底機關什麼時候做成何時做成"},{"start":6831.937,"end":6859.227,"text":"那做成之後有沒有停止執行的必要那其實法院端可能就不是那麼能夠確實掌握了那所以如果這個時候因為停止執行的效力會急於後續處分那認為後續處分也有提供擔保的必要的話其實他是可以主動向法院來申請的那本來就可以向法院主動申請啊你講了半天你仔細聽一聽你自己剛講過的話"},{"start":6861.038,"end":6883.72,"text":"他本來就可以向法院來申請,我從來沒有質疑這件事情啊你們在寫法條的時候啊,要特別的注意啊在每一個相同問題脈絡的時候你們所要採行的立法原則到底是什麼停止執行命公擔保的這件事情是發生在任何強制執行的脈絡裡面都會發生的"},{"start":6885.973,"end":6904.629,"text":"不管是民事的強制執行、行政的強制執行甚至在你們這邊所針對稅審法所為特別規定的行政執行我現在的問題非常的簡單停止執行了以後為什麼要命共擔保?你要從這個制度本身回去重新思考嗎?"},{"start":6905.748,"end":6921.014,"text":"停止執行之所以命共擔保是因為本來在強制執行的程序當中一開始的時候原則上是不停止執行的接續執行到整個執行程序終結實現執行的目的為止會停止是例外"},{"start":6924.088,"end":6945.54,"text":"當停止了以後我們就會擔心停止了以後那後續整個執行的目的如果當停止的原因消滅的時候到底能不能夠實現一開始所啟動的執行程序的目的所以會有命共擔保的制度你了解完了這整個脈絡了以後下一個最關鍵的問題如果"},{"start":6949.181,"end":6977.5,"text":"在命停止執行的時候為了擔心停止執行以後後續當停止的原因消滅繼續接續執行的時候沒有辦法達成那個執行的目的的時候那為什麼一個地方是依申請或依職權另外一個地方只有依申請我到目前為止沒有聽到區別對待的理由當事人本來就可以申請我沒意見啊那我現在的意見是什麼那法院為什麼不能依職權這是我的問題"},{"start":6979.4,"end":6980.431,"text":"好 請列心再把說明"},{"start":6981.874,"end":7010.793,"text":"報告委員 可能我剛剛說的不是很清楚我的意思是說因為法律明文規定它的效果停止的效果會急於後續處分但是機關它到底後續處分什麼時候做成它做成了沒有其實行政法院是沒有辦法很具體的掌握所以這個時候要求行政法院依職全面供擔保那我們是覺得說可能就在實務上操作上有比較困難因此在這裡是設計是說"},{"start":7012.014,"end":7026.947,"text":"是依申請因為想說當事人知之甚詳所以還是由當事人來發動這樣一個程序了解 那麼主席這邊也要做一個追問其實跟第二項的情況剛剛在委員會委員討論的其實是實際上的就是因為我們行政法院在實務經驗上當然知之甚詳了解說什麼情況之下當事人會有不得回復的損害那麼因此當事人會自然會提出申請"},{"start":7040.518,"end":7056.877,"text":"那您的所謂的後續處分相對的不是當事人的是機關那麼是機關什麼做出後續處分其實行政法院不了解可是當事人知道那當事人知道後續處分對他有損害他當然會提出申請所以你認為沒有加這樣的一個規定也可以"},{"start":7057.978,"end":7074.529,"text":"滿足但是呢我們目前我認為說那就把依職權或依申請把這依職權的放進去也有可能有用到的時候說不定行政法院在某些情況之下他得其後續處分可能"},{"start":7075.169,"end":7096.095,"text":"有必要停止執行就可以依職權來停止就跟剛剛第二項行政法院也可能依職權知道有一些不可恢復的損害就依職權來提起來提出來裁定停止執行那這跟我們行政訴訟法第116條的精神是相符的那麼這樣的一個委員的意見是不是聽起來列席機關並沒有"},{"start":7098.618,"end":7123.363,"text":"反對嘛是不是是不是我們目前呢也請比照第二項我們也加入了依職全貨這四個字放在第十條第六項最後倒數第二行的內容上那我們請做文字上的修正請問委員會其他委員覺得這樣的一個修正是否妥適那不然的話我們就先進行這樣的一個修正好那我們繼續下去那請問在場委員好請繼續 黃委員"},{"start":7126.4,"end":7129.128,"text":"那我們繼續往第八項走來看一下"},{"start":7130.902,"end":7153.395,"text":"第六項的情況原處分或決定以全部或部分執行或實現者除執行標的以拍賣或變賣為第三人或有其他依法或性質上不能回復形狀的情勢行政機關可以依申請撤銷全部或一部以執行的程序或實現之行為並命執行機關或回復原狀的必要處分"},{"start":7159.059,"end":7167.511,"text":"來 我們先從這裡來處理第一個 我們先講例外的狀況所謂例外的狀況是說"},{"start":7169.522,"end":7193.65,"text":"在執行法上有一個基本的原則也就是說我們一開始進行了執行程序了以後一開始進行了執行程序了以後啟動這個強制執行啟動這個強制執行的授權基礎這個授權基礎我們一般把它稱之為執行名義在行政訴訟的脈絡裡面就是行政處分好當"},{"start":7197.441,"end":7222.691,"text":"這個執行的基礎就是這個可以啟動國家公權力進行執行程序的這個基礎處分如果出現了一些狀況的話原則上這個執行程序因為欠缺授權基礎本身產生動搖那個時候原則上是要撤銷所有已為的執行處分"},{"start":7224.281,"end":7245.89,"text":"第二個層次那但是呢當你強制執行程序走到一個階段的時候因為牽涉到對第三人利益的保護對牽涉到利益的保護的時候已經做完的事情無從再回頭已經做完的事情無從再回頭所以在個別的強制執行程序終結的時候"},{"start":7247.651,"end":7264.443,"text":"已經終結的執行程序無從撤銷這個是第二個原則我相信我在說什麼司法院的官員應該都聽得很懂沒有什麼太大的問題好那現在到進入了這個條文的核心來我們先分兩個部分我先從最簡單的開始講"},{"start":7266.684,"end":7295.689,"text":"最簡單的是你們除外的例外事由因為除外的例外事由就是在反應上面我剛剛所講的就是說當個別的執行程序終結的時候他已經處於一個無從撤銷無從往回頭路走的一個狀態了那在這樣的情況之下你這裡所講的執行標的物以拍賣或變賣於第三人在這裡你講的以拍賣指的是拍定還是所有權移轉"},{"start":7297.902,"end":7322.664,"text":"這是我的第一個問題你在這裡講的已拍賣已拍賣指的是拍定還是完成所有權移轉這個在執行程序上是兩個不同的階段拍定是拍定所有權移轉是所有權移轉那你在這邊所講的已拍賣指的是什麼意思這個我要確定的第一個問題"},{"start":7327.128,"end":7345.839,"text":"好 謝謝黃委員那因為後面有不能回復原狀那麼剛剛所說的拍賣跟拍訂都涉及到不能回復的情況那是不是就機關代表部分能夠做說明關於因為在實務上我想委員很多都有類似的接受陳情的案例那的確呢所謂的不能回復"},{"start":7347.701,"end":7361.489,"text":"這個到底是處在財產上的處分是什麼狀態因為用以拍賣或變賣這個時間點到底是切在哪裡可能聶錫光要做一個完整的說明那再跟委員會報告一下"},{"start":7361.949,"end":7380.93,"text":"目前我們在處理的是第十項那目前呢第十條那前面幾項我們已經有請做第二項還有第六項那以及剛剛有委員提出第八項都是認為在醫生請這三個字之前已加入醫職權或"},{"start":7382.692,"end":7401.651,"text":"這四個字把兩項的發動呢都能夠依行政訴訟法的116的精神域把它留存雖然在實務上可能行政法院不曾遇到過但是呢在理論上可能未來有用到的機會那立法者基於周延立法的考量我們在文字上做這樣的叫"},{"start":7402.532,"end":7426.102,"text":"完整的規範是有利於未來人民權利的保障我想這一點在場的委員都應該是肯認這個方向那是不是請剛剛的文事修正的部分呢可以趕快擬一下那我們可以做後續的修正我直接講是不是因為還沒完啦好那我這樣子有關條文內容的調整請司法院參酌討論過程中委員意見"},{"start":7431.387,"end":7450.476,"text":"進行修正提出意見的條文內容應送在場委員討論那剛剛講的就是把依職全貨這四個字呢加入那剛剛呢委員提到的以拍賣或變賣是拍定還是以轉完成這個部分時間點上請說明那委員在這段時間有沒有提他的意見來好請陳廷長"},{"start":7459.956,"end":7474.169,"text":"我們的這裡的拍賣應該是指拍訂然後取得權利移轉證書的時候就生效不好意思喔拍訂跟取得權利移轉證書是兩件事拍訂後取得權利移轉證書前中間會有個時間差"},{"start":7482.608,"end":7493.889,"text":"拍定是拍定取得權利預轉證書取得權利預轉證書所以我才特別問嘛那你指的是兩個都包括在裡面所以在解釋適用上如何解釋適用"},{"start":7496.287,"end":7517.427,"text":"這個我也要追問一下,因為實務上我們受理到陳情的確有這種情況因為法院的流程很長,在哪個時間點發生涉及到當事人的權利所以是不是請司法院這個部分好好的彙整那麼我也請侯委員會,因為這個條文剛剛經過大家的補充跟討論可能有些文字要修正形成"},{"start":7518.047,"end":7531.716,"text":"那是不是這個部分容許主席先就剛剛第八項提出的部分讓司法院去就文字的斟酌再去做一個比較完整的精確的表達那我們繼續討論 請黃委員剛剛這個是第八項的Part 1現在進入第八項的Part 2"},{"start":7539.98,"end":7564.736,"text":"回到本文原處分已經實現然後行政法院可以依照申請撤銷全部或部分已執行的行為這部分我就真的要請教一下停止執行只是停止執行喔並不代表原來距離啟動執行程序的基礎處分已經消滅了"},{"start":7566.966,"end":7595.605,"text":"如果原來據於啟動執行的基礎處分已經因為各種法律上的原因消滅的話那就不是停止的問題那是已經進行的執行程序整個都要撤銷掉了因為這個執行程序的基礎已經沒有了在法律上面被撤銷了那現在我的問題是在執行程序上在執行程序上如果原來啟動執行程序的基礎處分"},{"start":7597.571,"end":7621.89,"text":"他還存在那你只是擔心什麼你會停止執行是擔心說這樣子一直搞下去最後判決出來的時候如果原處分被撤銷事情就大了因為你全部都執行完了你原處分撤銷了要再回來已經回不來了那個時候要再回復原狀可能沒辦法回復原狀"},{"start":7623.254,"end":7650.449,"text":"那只能夠請求損害賠償請求損害賠償也沒有辦法充分的去滿足所謂損害填補的要求這個是停止執行制度之本質嘛這個我相信司法院的法官們大家都非常的清楚好那因此在停止執行的脈絡當中停止執行我不讓你繼續走下去我不讓你繼續走下去但是已經自為的"},{"start":7653.956,"end":7682.211,"text":"已經執行的程序已經執行的程序只是停止執行啊為什麼要把它撤銷掉啊為什麼要恢復原狀這個是我的問題啊你 我譬如說我完成查封我完成查封我完成查封停止執行是說不要再賣下去了但是我還是要保留那個財產凍結相對禁止移轉儲分的效力"},{"start":7683.174,"end":7700.707,"text":"因為我到最後訴訟終結的時候有可能是行政機關贏啊如果行政機關贏你前面只是停止就先撤銷已為的執行主份就起封了哇 那你如果起封了以後代表他就可以自由移轉喔他自由移轉了以後結果搞到訴訟到最後"},{"start":7702.461,"end":7728.814,"text":"是行政訴訟駁回 行政機關贏了然後行政機關再回頭過去進行查封的時候才發現哇 本來的查封處分前面已經被撤銷掉了這個整個第八項的設計到底那個理論基礎是什麼我完全沒有辦法理解這個是我針對第八項Part 2的問題"},{"start":7731.547,"end":7743.473,"text":"好 那麼這個部分可以回答嗎還是要委員有其他Part 3的部分一併回答好 那請就這個部分關於這個部分就是因為考量到就是"},{"start":7744.929,"end":7774.051,"text":"不是只是停止強制執行的程序而已是因為它原來處分的效力也已經被凍結了所以這個時候我們是參照德國財務法院法認為在這個時候其實它所停止的是一切可以用來實現這個債權也就是它原來基於這個科稅處分的一切的手段跟效果"},{"start":7774.491,"end":7802.4,"text":"通通不被允許了因此才在這樣一個立法上面明定說他可以除了是已經不能回復的情形之外這個時候是可以去撤銷他已經做成的這個執行的程序或實現的行為而且讓機關去回復原狀的必要處置這是這一條規定的一個理念"},{"start":7803.777,"end":7813.254,"text":"我可以追問一下嗎來來來我來問一下不好意思就是因為我們實務上會遇到的就剛剛因為黃委員的一個追問提到的"},{"start":7813.956,"end":7837.049,"text":"那如果因為之前在公聽會就在討論基礎處分跟後續處分有在討論這個內容那因為基礎處分跟後續處分這個是在我們稅審法當中一個概念提出來那麼也大家都很有興趣在公聽會的時候都還在討論那剛剛的提出說不太明白詢問一下那麼就那個"},{"start":7838.919,"end":7861.019,"text":"可以回復原狀的必要之處置對於不能回復的情況那麼剛剛所說的我就具體案例來請教那麼如果說因為欠稅然後他的房子就被查封那目前呢如果這個查封被撤銷但是最後還是當事人敗訴要繳很多的稅可是原來稅務行政機關所要"},{"start":7862,"end":7871.529,"text":"做來抵稅的這個標定呢已經被移轉了那會不會發生這樣的情況用很淺白的話詢問就剛剛黃委員所提出的那個情況的個案實務上會不會發生在你們這樣的條文設計之下"},{"start":7876.049,"end":7895.721,"text":"她如果因為欠稅去查封她的房屋如果是基於以這個原來欠稅的這個科稅處分做執行名義的話因此去執行她的房屋查封拍賣那因為她的這個執行名義這個處分如果因為法院已經把她裁定停止了"},{"start":7896.101,"end":7925.701,"text":"所以他的整個效力是被凍結了是沒有了所以這個時候回復原狀其實就應該回復到最初的原狀就是起封就沒有查封但是這個時候因為我們也明定說這個停止執行的效力也就是第九項的規定就是說停止執行的效力不會影響他做的保全措施如果你有另外像依照稅捐基準法24條什麼什麼你可以做一些保全措施"},{"start":7926.061,"end":7929.698,"text":"你還是可以通過保全措施的規定去做這個保全"},{"start":7931.072,"end":7957.942,"text":"謝謝 所以條文上第八項剛剛講的情況可能在第九項就做一個補充上的規定好 那麼委員對於第八項的部分我們剛剛大概有大家很一致性的比較接近就是在醫生請前面加醫職全貨這樣的一個概念那至於剛剛黃委員所垂詢的部分剛剛是業績官代表是說那在第九項的部分可以作為一個"},{"start":7959.082,"end":7985.73,"text":"對那種情況下的一個規範那請問委員那麼繼續請黃委員那個第八項Part 2的問題我老實講你剛剛的回答不是在回答我的問題啦我先做這樣的說明避免你們產生誤解認為你剛剛把條文再念一次已經回答了我的問題並沒有先留下這樣清楚的記錄好Part 3的部分再往下走"},{"start":7986.63,"end":8007.03,"text":"必要時可以命申請人向原署分機關提供擔保,那個得命申請人向原署分機關提供擔保,是依職權,依申請,還是不用寫?好,那麼機關代表請說明,第八項,倒數第四行,必要時"},{"start":8009.93,"end":8035.449,"text":"因為第八項前段我們本來是依申請因為本來就是前段的就是依申請那後段的話必要時也基本法院審酌必要時就可以命供擔保抱歉因為你們前面有寫申請人你這申請人是對應你前面的是依申請"},{"start":8036.161,"end":8059.464,"text":"那如果前面是依職權或依申請,後面的這個申請人就不報案全部啊?對啊,法院命,所以看起來應該是依職權所以這個藍方委員請我再回去想清楚如果這個時候必要時得怎麼樣就指的是依職權的話"},{"start":8060.973,"end":8084.045,"text":"那如果按照你這種立法體力前面只有一職權的統統把一職權三個字都刪掉因為你不要說同一部法典同一部法典有不同的寫法這我可以理解你不同的法典有不同的寫法我可以理解你現在不僅僅是在同一部法典有不同的寫法連同一個條文都有不同的寫法"},{"start":8088.696,"end":8111.551,"text":"你以後是要大家再猜喔要大家去想喔我必須要講在程序法上有沒有申請權很重要當我有申請權的時候你准不准法院就要針對我這個申請權為回應通常回應的方式是裁定"},{"start":8112.691,"end":8137.172,"text":"那個裁定可不可以事後就進 那是下一個層次的問題如果純粹是依職權的話那只是促請法院為職權之發動法官可以說 我聽到了 然後呢 沒有然後了為什麼沒有然後 因為你沒有申請權嘛要做不要做完全是我法官來決定的嘛我聽到了 我聽到了我也沒必要回應"},{"start":8138.732,"end":8166.92,"text":"因為你根本沒申請權嘛啊你們坐在同一項前面有一申請拜託第八項行政法院得一申請撤銷全部或部分的已執行程序主份誰會做這個申請就是被執行的那個人民嘛受到這個執行程序不利益的人民會申請嘛那誰會想要申請命單保是行政機關嘛"},{"start":8169.001,"end":8194.838,"text":"財務部的那個財政部的可能會講說欸欸欸 燒彈欸你現在把它撤銷了撤銷什麼意思啊前面做的執行處分啊全部丟到垃圾桶去啊當沒做過一模一樣喔啊當沒做過一模一樣啊你說雖然今天機關單開始緊張啦啊前面的全部撤銷啊也起風了欸 稍等一下 稍微等一下啊如果最後是我贏的話"},{"start":8196.878,"end":8204.244,"text":"你前面把那個執行處分全部撤銷掉你不是在協助他脫產嗎所以誰會想要醫生請命他擔保是稅政機關機關會想要醫生請命他供擔保嗎"},{"start":8210.478,"end":8234.78,"text":"所以你前面的那個依申請跟你後面說必要時可以命他向原處分機關供擔保這裡命是依職權還是他們也有權利依申請命他供擔保那個財政部的代表你們到底有沒有深刻理解這個條文對你們的影響你坐在那邊一句話都不講"},{"start":8237.327,"end":8253.049,"text":"我都幫你捏把冷汗你真的都OK喔來那個三中代表請說明如果我們行政法院得依職權或依申請後面的流程就有兩軌那你們說明一下剛剛黃委員的詢問"},{"start":8255.412,"end":8283.055,"text":"報告委員因為基本上我們如果納稅人形成欠稅的時候我們已經會先依稅監監法第24條進行相關的保全措施那如果是進行保全措施就是這個假設他是不動產的話當然我們就會禁止處分就是禁止處分那進行處分會不會走到這個所謂拍賣或變賣這種程序其實如果我們保全程序做得完備的話"},{"start":8284.036,"end":8311.651,"text":"照理說應該不會走到拍賣或變賣到第三人這個程序因為這個財產已經禁止儲分了所以如果他們司法院要這樣訂因為我們基本上如果稅務機關前面的擔保程序都做得很完備的話照理說這個程序不是會影響說萬一他哪一天敗訴以後我們後續的這些財產是不是欠稅我們辦法追回"},{"start":8313.866,"end":8342.205,"text":"好 黃委員請來看一下財政部的代表把法文看清楚喔把法條看清楚喔第八項在處理第六項的情況第六項的情況指的是什麼情況你原處分或決定的效力都被停止了喔好 你原處分的決定效力被延遲剛剛你所講的在你們行政機關裡面所做的那個保全處分"},{"start":8343.274,"end":8369.148,"text":"你們認為那個時候效力還會繼續存在因為在第九項他有特別提出說第六項停止執行是效力不影響我們的保全程序不是啊那如果是這樣子的話那我就要請教一下司法院那如果是這樣子的話他們前面的通通都有效你在後面的執行程序把它撤掉到底有什麼意義啊完全沒有意義啊"},{"start":8370.592,"end":8393.986,"text":"因為對於納稅義務人來講他唯一care的一件事情是什麼對我財產權所附加的限制是不是可以獲得解放嘛那你們在行政訴訟在所謂的稅務行政訴訟把它解放了那原來的沒有把它解放所以搞了半天對當事人的角度來講在稅務行政訴訟的時候"},{"start":8395.834,"end":8423.033,"text":"沒有去凍結我處分權能的問題但是在本來的稅務機關的原處分效率繼續存在那你在這邊規範的實意是什麼我現在越聽越不懂好那麼在第九項對稅務機關的一個強勢保障之下前面所提的第六七八這三個項目實務上到底對於"},{"start":8426.086,"end":8441.398,"text":"納稅醫護人或者當事人有什麼好處的確我也很好奇啦因為第九項已經給稅務機關那麼大的一個保障了嘛那你前面對於納稅醫護人678這三項你給他什麼樣的救濟的程序利益那第九項就發現前面678我們在處理的是什麼"},{"start":8478.081,"end":8493.991,"text":"要不要那個主席我可不可以提議休息10分鐘讓他們研究一下那不然全部的人坐在他們看他們在那邊交流頭接的大家都很害怕我們莊委員有不同意見嗎我們休息5分鐘休息可以啦但是我先談一下我早上聽到現在"},{"start":8497.173,"end":8514.201,"text":"其實還是沒有聚焦你整個其實我們我第一次在省的時候我就提出來了我們整部法令我們去接收了德國很多精華那這個精華裡面你去把它看我們"},{"start":8515.402,"end":8538.027,"text":"一般在看處罰的部分的話我們行政處罰那個部分我們其實是用行政程序那現在呢大家在看在談的有時候談到的是本稅的部分那有的是談到說這處罰的部分那你如果是要去記受它的經法的話那你現在用刑事訴訟的一個觀點來看德國確實是採這一部分"},{"start":8542.478,"end":8558.23,"text":"剛剛我們提到的就是說如果你是用刑事訴訟的觀點去看的話那確實是無罪推定那確實是當事人也沒有協力的義務那我們這整個行政法裡面我們確實是台灣我們自己去發展"},{"start":8560.431,"end":8578.659,"text":"那現在我們會覺得說國外的這個法制我們要去學習把它的精華弄進來可是我們又參差的太多太多不同的一個法制在裡面所以會扯不清啦所以我就看因為司法院剛剛廷長在回答的時候我很清楚你們都非常實務的一個經驗可是用抽象去講的話如果在立法院大家用"},{"start":8582.759,"end":8599.734,"text":"用整個不同的一個體力的一個概念去談回顧到整個幾乎是大體討論有時候你用形式說法的觀點去看甚至有時候你到細部的一個條文裡面你會認為說這個法院應該是用"},{"start":8604.358,"end":8621.378,"text":"職權去命令對整個訴訟裡面要讓他去發現一個真實可是你又會去卡到整個你的核心問題是什麼所以這個還是講不清啦我是認為這一部法令的時候我們剛開始在大體討論的時候就沒講清楚"},{"start":8621.918,"end":8639.833,"text":"那現在來進入到這整個個別的條文裡面我認為都一直會去卡關否則你看你這個第八項我來看的話你說必要時得命申請人向原儲分機關提供擔保那大家想說到底是當事人申請還是法案區一個職權那我來看的話"},{"start":8641.614,"end":8657.499,"text":"你確實到底有沒有急迫 或者說難以去做一個回覆那你法官在那邊審的時候 當事人沒講你光法官你自己也沒辦法去非常的一個清楚先休一下啦 先休一下 大家這樣不用在那裡雞湯鴨講好 謝謝 那我們休息五分鐘不是 剛剛有說要休息啊"},{"start":8668.415,"end":8669.158,"text":"沒關係啦 這個我主席說15分鐘啦 好不好"},{"start":9305.25,"end":9327.336,"text":"好 那麼繼續開會 請就座那因為剛剛我們在第十條各項 有的各項的增訂文字有共識有的部分可能還需要列席機關做充分說明那因為在場委員也一直有在關切包括到第十項的部分那是我們委員會"},{"start":9328.416,"end":9353.174,"text":"那麼在行政列席機關就剛剛第九項及之前的文字修正和相關的內容說明的部分呢我們繼續的趕快把文字完整化那我們也讓第十項的部分呢因為剛剛已經分別聽過了司法院及財政部的意見了那因為在場委員對於滯納金的利息的部分也要表達意見那我們先也就是同時就第十項的部分來進行討論好 那請陳委員"},{"start":9357.466,"end":9378.367,"text":"好 謝謝主席對於那個滯納金需這個加收利息的部分我想說因為剛剛聽了我們財政部的這個意見那依我們這個4-746號慈嚴利息可以這個再加收利息嗎這個部分我想說"},{"start":9379.591,"end":9404.361,"text":"之前有民眾的這個釋憲的一個案子他針對這個部分那大法官會議指出在那個稅捐激增法第20條裡面有規定那依這個稅法的內容預期繳納這個稅捐應加增滯納金則每餘兩日可是我剛剛聽我們那個我們庭長講的是我們"},{"start":9408.503,"end":9434.29,"text":"那個陳警長講的是三日嘛齁那我看到的是兩日齁按滯納這個數額加增一趴的滯納金那這個最主要是要督促齁我們國人對於法定的這個期限內齁應該要履行繳稅的一個義務的一個手段齁那為看起來就是為違反這個憲法的一個保障財產權和比例原則的一個規定"},{"start":9438.803,"end":9466.965,"text":"就這個納稅款的部分我們要加徵利息跟憲法保障這個財產權的部分也沒有衝突那大法官會議對於這個滯納金再加徵利息的部分也認為說這個滯納金是政府為了要督促而設立的並不是再加徵利息的這個方式來讓民眾好像多一個這個"},{"start":9470.019,"end":9491.002,"text":"繳稅的一個方式那這個滯納金遲延的這個利息的性質如再加增利息看起來就是重複計算不符合這個憲法比例的原則那個大法官也很明確的講說這是違憲那應立即失效"},{"start":9492.045,"end":9502.8,"text":"那換言之有這個遲延的利息性質的這種滯納金不可以再加收利息不然重複計算的話欠缺合理性也不符這個比例原則"},{"start":9504.383,"end":9526.827,"text":"在這個滯納金的利息加徵的部分就等同是重複的處罰我們的國稅局除了加收滯納金當作懲罰以外還要再加收稅額以外的利息並且再加收滯納金的利息"},{"start":9528.134,"end":9552.628,"text":"那這樣子等同一釋三法一釋三法所以大法官也認為說這個滯納金的利息分兩種嘛一種是稅額的利息一種是這個納稅金滯納金的一個利息就兩種嘛那設立這個我們還是再重複一次他認為就是要督促人民按時的來繳納這個稅額本來就不應該"},{"start":9558.148,"end":9575.597,"text":"這個計算利息況且我們滯納金的本身就具有這個遲延利息的性質如果再針對滯納金再收取利息等於重複計算一次兩法三法認為多收的這個滯納金的利息違背憲法所以"},{"start":9578.382,"end":9601.831,"text":"我們是認為說因為剛剛我聽我們司法院還有財政部這邊的講法好像是有不同的意見我們應該是司法院這邊好像是比較傾向就是可能自殺金再加收利息的部分比較沒有表示意見可是剛剛次長的部分好像是就針對這個部分有講所以我想說這個部分是不是可以把意見做一個整合"},{"start":9604.276,"end":9626.605,"text":"民眾的這個聲音我覺得我們也應該要去重視你如果說假設像民眾認為說這個一事三法的話這也會對民眾的這個繳稅的意願會產生不利的影響那是不是等一下請我們司法院跟財政部這邊再做一個完整的一個說明好 那麼列席機關代表是不是司法院先"},{"start":9630.093,"end":9643.686,"text":"其實我們第十項的規定是規定不科偵制納金我們是認為說因為如果你回復原狀之後是你之前繳的稅款啊什麼全部通通要還給納稅義務人"},{"start":9647.711,"end":9675.78,"text":"而且這一段時間因為裁定停止我們也不會再去科徵20條因為你預期繳納稅款而要繳的滯納金我們認為說滯納金這一塊是不科徵的取而代之的我們是用利息來計算也就是其實它的利息標準是跟目前稅捐基增法38條規定的利息是一致的那所以"},{"start":9676.32,"end":9695.996,"text":"沒有委員剛才所謂的科徵的滯納金又要科徵滯納金的利息的這個問題我們認為前面滯納金全部都不用了取而代之的你只要敗訴確定之後你只要去跟他追這一段期間的利息就可以好 那個財政部代表請"},{"start":9697.535,"end":9716.53,"text":"謝謝主席 我補充說明一下就是我們這邊寫的這個滯納金是它按照稅捐基金法第20條就是原來應該繳納的期間所預繳的這個部分我們現在修法是改成三天 三天加1%所以總共是10% 最多加到10%"},{"start":9717.751,"end":9745.578,"text":"然後呢 滯納金不會再有利息不會再有按滯納金去計算利息這件事情那我們這邊講的滯納利息是說我們其他的稅法像我們所的稅法裡面也會有講說你預了原來的繳納期限以後我們會按照原來的繳納期預期的天數再去計算一個利息那個是另外就本稅部分計算的滯納利息跟滯納金沒有關係這邊我要說明一下就是說我們不會再針對滯納金去加計利息"},{"start":9747.498,"end":9751.882,"text":"沒有這件事情也就是不會走那個司法院已經解釋我們是違憲那件事情本來就違憲那個我們不會再加徵所以現在所加的只是說他因為複查階段如果他複查階段決定以後我們國稅局會發一個稅單給他"},{"start":9764.494,"end":9767.136,"text":"會依照稅運檢法第38條的規定加一個行就席然後另外會發一個稅單給他那稅單會有一個現繳日期那如果你預了這個現繳日期的話就進入滯納金的計算期限就每預三日加1%最多加到10%"},{"start":9781.969,"end":9789.494,"text":"至於所謂的滯納利息是依照其他的稅法各個稅法各個稅法像我們所謂的稅法有另外講說你超過了你原來應該繳納的期限之後呢我們會按日另外計算所謂的滯納利息它跟滯納金是沒有關係的那我們這邊是建議說因為既然納稅人已有人敗訴了當然司法院這個條文是講說他如果敗訴的話我們是就他原來從他"},{"start":9809.426,"end":9828.399,"text":"停止執行期間該繳納的利息部分一併加徵但是主要是因為考量滯納金跟利息的計算畢竟有一些差異因為滯納金基本上我們是按照本稅的10%來計算但是司法院這個條文它是按照一年期定期儲金"},{"start":9829.54,"end":9837.573,"text":"的固定利率來計算那我們初步計算的結果是兩者之間可能會有將近7%到8%的差異那如果是一個納稅義務人他欠繳的稅款金額比較巨大"},{"start":9844.127,"end":9855.771,"text":"然後呢他可能比較有這個故意去延遲繳納這種意圖的話有可能因為這樣這個會鼓勵納稅人將來呢他都可以進入只要進入這個執行行政輸送程序的話他們都可以不要去繳這個相關的滯納金或滯納利息延遲繳納因為他未來即使敗訴他也只有加計利息的負擔而已所以我們是覺得基於公平課稅的考量似乎如果他如果敗訴的話"},{"start":9872.778,"end":9884.24,"text":"應該他原來應該要加徵的滯納基因還有滯納利息或者是刑救利息都應該在一併來依法規定來繳回在依稅基金法的規定來追徵回來這是我們建議的條文"},{"start":9885.168,"end":9907.642,"text":"好 謝謝 在吳昭偉說明之前請提醒委員會目前剛剛次長講的是他們提供的財政部意見的建議修正的第三頁那裡面是寫應追繳原加徵滯納金及利息那這裡的利息是指本稅的利息那這裡的滯納金就是原儲分的滯納金來 請吳昭偉"},{"start":9910.677,"end":9922.663,"text":"好謝謝那我先請問一下因為我有一個地方不是很懂就是因為這個部分應該是屬於程序法嘛對不對就我們這次審的這個草案那因為我看的"},{"start":9924.178,"end":9951.676,"text":"因為其實我們第10條第10項它有一個就是說就是不得克徵那如果用一個程序法去免除掉稅增基增法的義務這當然可不可以這樣我覺得這是我們一個思考不過這幾年確實我們立出來的法律很多都把程序法跟實際法全部混在同一個法律裡面那這樣子其實是跟早年的立法技術是不太一樣"},{"start":9952.896,"end":9979.548,"text":"這我先說第一個那第二個當然後來今天那個財政部的修正我是蠻認同的因為原本你們的草案其實他會造成的就是將來一定會有這個納稅的義務人他會藉由這提起一些訴訟然後來停止相關的執行那你們今天提出來的這個我剛剛把整個仔細看我覺得你們提這是有道理"},{"start":9980.248,"end":9997.266,"text":"就用之後追針追腳的模式去把它處理完所以這一塊如果你們後續修正的文字我是認同的只是我覺得用我們這次的稅務行政事件審理法"},{"start":9998.247,"end":10011.704,"text":"來去排除掉稅增基增法的義務就是第10條第10項這個我總覺得有一點怪怪是不是可以請行政機關說明一下好 請陳廷長說明"},{"start":10013.226,"end":10039.185,"text":"是 報告委員其實這一條主要是規定就是停止執行的規定那行政訴訟法是規定在126條的規定那所以因為針對稅務的特性所以在這裡我們又做了一些特別的一些的處理那跟委員報告就是我們為什麼不科徵滯納金其實就是基於我們認為"},{"start":10040.206,"end":10056.995,"text":"法院裁定停止執行委員可以看第二條第一款跟第二款的要件其實第二項第一款跟第二款的要件其實是非常的嚴格的必須是原處分合法性顯有疑義"},{"start":10058.315,"end":10076.38,"text":"就是說不用經過很仔細的調查看起來原處分的合法性就顯有疑義那這時候要讓原處分的效力繼續存在嗎要讓相關的執行行為繼續存在嗎那當事人如果提起行政徵送還要科徵他的滯納金嗎"},{"start":10077.78,"end":10093.258,"text":"那我們是認為說其實在效率這麼嚴的情形之下你若違法性先有疑義那我們就法院真的裁定認為你符合要件裁定准許你停止執行而且我們停止執行不僅僅是停止他的"},{"start":10094.099,"end":10114.66,"text":"強制執行程序而已我們還停止了他的效力原來處分的效力所以我們是才效力說就是因為你原來的這一個處分的效力就都已經被凍結被停止了那我們進而就認為說如果按照這樣子一個理論推論下來那當事人他就"},{"start":10115.2,"end":10143.155,"text":"沒有所謂預期繳納稅款啊那他為什麼要繳滯納金呢那因此如果法院真的裁定准許之後而且他也申請法院去測了他的一些的執行執行程序會以實現的行政行為並且法院命他回復原狀因此回復原狀以後之後如基於這些這個效力說基於效力說其實他"},{"start":10143.795,"end":10172.24,"text":"就根本沒有這些問題如果他真的最後敗訴了敗訴了他要繳納這些稅款那只是我們認為說這個回頭所以設計了一個特別的一個利息那只是因為你遲延繳納嘛你到敗訴確定之後你真的敗訴你還是要繳納這筆稅款所以我們在這邊才會去加徵一個利息那所以其實我們認為我們司法院的版本是對納稅義務人比較有保障的"},{"start":10172.6,"end":10192.877,"text":"而且重點是這裡的遲延利息就是指因為你預期繳納的遲延利息的滯納金而且這個滯納金目前按照稅捐基增法的規定它是非常的高的30天就要課你滯繳金額的10%那所以我們才有這樣的一個設計 謝謝"},{"start":10194.939,"end":10202.368,"text":"我意思是這樣就是說我是認同你們所以我剛有說我認同你們後來的文字上面的修正"},{"start":10203.215,"end":10230.511,"text":"那我覺得那個也是比較合理嘛這部分我OK但我剛剛的問題是在於說我雖然可以認同你們這樣的修正因為這樣可以避免到有一些人會去利用訴訟然後來不用繳這些錢所以你們的這個文字上的修正我支持但是我是說回過頭去思考一個點就是因為你剛剛有提到《稅務基金法》二十條就是每三日加徵一趴的這個規定"},{"start":10232.392,"end":10258.97,"text":"但是這個部分我們是不是可以用一個審理法的草案審理法 這個程序法的東西我們回過頭去免去這個稅政基金法20條的這個義務可以這樣做嗎我只是說這是法律立法上面一個技術面的問題因為這樣我們立出來變因為這幾年我們很多法律其實搞到最後程序法司法全部混在一起"},{"start":10259.75,"end":10274.122,"text":"跟我們早年所理解的程序法就程序法實例法就實例法不一樣用一個程序法去去推翻掉碎片計算法20條的這個義務這個邏輯我是不太能理解請說明"},{"start":10276.949,"end":10297.412,"text":"報告委員其實這個還是我們認為是基於停止執行這個程序或者是這個制度它的法律效果做完整的配套的規定所以我們才會議題規定所以它還是屬於停止執行的一個效果的規定"},{"start":10300.842,"end":10321.997,"text":"我想剛剛經過吳釗偉的提出跟葉啟光的說明我們都理解今天從最早一開始到現在今天討論的都有提到關於納保法的精神哪些部分會在我們稅審法當中呢大家會認為有重疊的部分那聽起來稅審法不純粹是程序的規定因為有些部分是在納保法當中"},{"start":10322.717,"end":10335.421,"text":"他那個精神 但是呢 我們的睡神法要在落實大概有這樣的一個體力這樣的爭議那請問目前因為關於前面的第我看第八項第八項的部分那麼因為剛剛我收到了"},{"start":10342.853,"end":10357.726,"text":"司法院他們的對於一開始委員所提到的依職權或依申請字樣有一個修正的動議但是我細讀之下主席這邊細讀之下發現在第八項的部分呢並沒有做任何的調整"},{"start":10358.547,"end":10383.412,"text":"是否這個部分因為剛剛在休息之前黃委員有垂詢過那麼這裡面呢提到第八項當中也是有一個一申請撤銷那後面呢又有一個必要時易得命申請人那這樣的一個軌跡如果說有要調整那勢必前後都可能會有需要調整那目前你們送到主議台的這邊是都沒有調整這個部分要不要說明一下"},{"start":10387.577,"end":10404.928,"text":"我們目前就是停止執行這裡是指他的本案執行也就是基於那一個原處分就是科稅處分所做的執行那如果今天這個原處分已經被法院裁定停止執行之後"},{"start":10405.328,"end":10430.106,"text":"因為效率說的影響它整個效率是被凍結的所以我們這個時候因為它前面可能已經進行了本案的一些強制執行的程序甚至已經實現了它的債權所以我們這裡就明文規定就是說你可以來跟法院申請因為你的裁定已經你申請法院停止執行已經被准了"},{"start":10430.546,"end":10447.081,"text":"那你要不要進一步申請法院去撤銷已經執行的那些執行程序命機關把已經收的相關的稅款返還我們是認為尊重當事人的程序選擇權那所以"},{"start":10448.022,"end":10473.631,"text":"當事人你要不要進一步做這樣申請我們才會規定說是依申請當事人可以依申請那當事人依申請要進一步去撤銷執行行為或者是要並且命機關為回復原狀的處置的時候這個時候法院必要的時候如果法院認為說要准"},{"start":10475.111,"end":10494.311,"text":"那他認為有必要因為返還之後會不會造成本案的債權日後無法確實實現所以他這個時候是法院認為必要的時候是可以命申請人向原處分機關提供擔保的"},{"start":10494.972,"end":10513.521,"text":"那這個時候因為是申請人申請嘛那法院認為必要時候可以這樣做但是根據我們本法的第五項的規定就是法院在做准許停止執行的時候其實都會先遵循當事人的意見所以"},{"start":10514.201,"end":10539.127,"text":"基增機關這個時候我們也會徵詢基增機關的意見如果基增機關知道當事人有申請進一步來申請要去撤銷執行程序而且要做回復原狀的話那機關其實也可以利用徵詢的程序來促使法院提醒法院說看法院是不是要命公擔保那以上的報告 謝謝好 那麼五不曉得 請換委員"},{"start":10541.807,"end":10553.378,"text":"第一個在程序法上面有沒有申請權跟你們表達意見的機會是兩個完全不同層次的問題你怎麼會把它混在一起講呢我這樣講聽得懂嗎"},{"start":10559.386,"end":10587.937,"text":"其實主席也是要請教一下因為剛剛就剛剛司法院的意見你們認為本來在其他各項當中依申請前面我們也可以遵御行政法院依職權去進行必要的處分但是在第八項剛剛你們的意見認為在第八項它的所涉及的含釋的範圍內純粹只有納稅義務人覺得有必要的時候才會提出申請也才有行政法院去命其做一些處置那不至於會有"},{"start":10588.777,"end":10604.167,"text":"法院依職權要去進行的這些部分的必要是這樣的意思嗎好那不過呢顯然那個委員還有其他意見是不是那剛主席那個歸納就不對嘛你們坐在那邊呆若木雞這樣好不好那麼"},{"start":10611.414,"end":10623.785,"text":"如果是這樣的話我看這樣子因為第10條我們花了很多時間那其實我現在手上這個修正動議如果說剛剛就有意見的第8項並沒有做必要的調整那這個修正動議也無從對第10條進行調整後就能夠做處置那同時另外第11項的部分"},{"start":10631.952,"end":10655.104,"text":"那委員會還是有不同委員有不同意見因為有的委員認為第10項的部分呢是認為應該不得課徵滯納金但是有委員也認同財政部的意見認為呢可以做第10項的部分做部分的修正那這樣好不好那我們第10條我們就把這些意見都先暫時保留因為我們今天本來是要處理上次完全會處理的11到16"},{"start":10657.685,"end":10675.874,"text":"這是屬於協力義務也是重中之重還有第25條稅審官那稅審官設置也跟我們協力義務有關於到達稅義務人的權利的保障那是不是委員會同意我們第10條還是暫保留我們因為有委員吳昭偉他希望能趕快進入到11條到後面的討論他請是我想要釐清的就是說剛講第10條的第二項後來有修有要但是因為"},{"start":10685.595,"end":10706.921,"text":"因為你剛剛只有講到第十條的第八項那第二項的部分呢我幫他說明一下好了因為目前有送上來要做文字修改的的確有包括問員所說的第二項第二行行政法院得依職權或依申請把依職權放進去了然後再來第三項也是一樣得依"},{"start":10708.441,"end":10736.297,"text":"職權或依申請也放進去了然後請看第六項第六項它也是說停止執行制裁定後面的倒數第二行也是可以依職權或依申請那麼目前我們剛剛的討論中已經有把它納入了只是說這些的修正意見因為後面有第八項的部分以及第十項的部分並沒有共識所以這個修正動議變成說我們只處理了有共識的部分沒有處理有"},{"start":10737.017,"end":10763.174,"text":"無共識的部分所以本條沒有辦法完全一次處理所以還是先暫保留那我們還是尋求後續如果有提出文字上完整的說明我們再拉回來請求委員會能夠對第10條的修正部分都予以肯認那因為剛剛有吳釗緯提到那我們就先進行11條到16條那個那個主席怎麼樣因為我另外還有一個會議齁那我我請那個黃國昌委員幫我提出就好所以你不用急著我了解"},{"start":10766.095,"end":10789.387,"text":"黃委員會幫我提出好那我們第10條暫保留那從第11條到第16條來請表示意見第一個我是建議第10條就直接喊宣告保留不要暫保留啦我們還是會處理謝謝委員沒有我再說一次我現在我今天早上發言我想非常清楚了啦"},{"start":10790.782,"end":10802.672,"text":"我對於這個法案到目前為止搞了二三十條它到底能夠發揮什麼規範的功能我是打一個超級大問號在這個疑慮消除以前針對這個法律立法的必要性"},{"start":10817.014,"end":10833.673,"text":"我基本上還是抱持一個高度保留的態度我先說清楚啦那至於說前面可能有一些條文你們在用詞上前後不一致的部分我看了也是覺得非常的困擾"},{"start":10835.014,"end":10859.006,"text":"我為什麼說用詞前後不一致的部分看了非常的困擾我走到後面的條文有時間的時候再來弄我走到後面的條文有時間的時候再來弄那第十條的部分那也請司法院在你所謂的修正文字的時候一併去考慮清楚如果你們在第十條的部分"},{"start":10860.046,"end":10887.973,"text":"保留了剛剛財政部所講的那樣的一個條文的話那他們前面的保留處分的措施效率都還繼續存在那我們前面規定這一拖拉鼓到底是在幹嘛我也完全看不懂啊在行政訴訟上面法官當事人全部都在瞎忙瞎忙了半天"},{"start":10889.711,"end":10904.036,"text":"對行政機關來講我只要後面我本來的保全措施的效率不受任何影響我們前面在訴訟程序上面搞這一堆不是都在瞎忙嗎"},{"start":10907.421,"end":10931.612,"text":"好 謝謝黃委員的寶貴意見我們都一向尊重委員會各委員對於全案的意見但因為之前我們已經包括名稱已經通過了21個條文跟名稱了那麼本草案有33條文那我們盡量的能夠在委員會善盡委員的職責將整個法案充分的由委員會表達意見後能夠達成共識的我們就通過"},{"start":10932.392,"end":10946.425,"text":"那麼三位能達成共識的我們也盡量的將爭點釐清那接下來我們就進行十一條那因為十一條到十六條都是協議義務的相關規定那麼就請委員會可以從十一條開始進行表示意見"},{"start":10948.895,"end":10962.288,"text":"縣市機關有需要先做11條到16條已經就委員因為委員今天在上午的部分呢又對協力義務提出了一個概括性的質疑那不是先請列席機關就這個部分加以說明"},{"start":10967.691,"end":10989.176,"text":"我想關於協力義務的規範我就是除了援引之前報告的之外想補充一點的就是說其實我們整部不管是行政訴訟法或者是我們本法案機關負有舉證責任當事人有協力義務法院"},{"start":10996.656,"end":11010.946,"text":"有職權調查的責任我想這是不會這是很明確的一件事也不會變動那剛才只是討論到協力義務只是因為我們特別就協力義務這一塊來講"},{"start":11013.368,"end":11032.088,"text":"好像會讓人誤認為說我們只側重在當事人你要負協力義務那我想其實不是這麼一回事的那因為其實納保法就已經明確的規定就是機關負的舉證責任並不會因為當事人負有協力義務而免除"},{"start":11033.089,"end":11057.816,"text":"那所以我想這是大家各盡本分各司其職的問題那至於協力義務的違反是不是一定會導致說他判決就會被敗訴我想這是不一定的因為協力義務的違反我們本條雖然有規定的一些的法律的效果例如你不來我可以處罰還"},{"start":11059.356,"end":11080.421,"text":"你不提出帳部憑證,那我可以以裁定命強制處分但是這個只是手段之一,我們也不排除可以我們也會回歸適用到行政訴訟法的相關規定例如我們可以用證明度降低"},{"start":11081.782,"end":11092.613,"text":"你不提出帳不憑證我們最後是用推計科稅的方式來核定稅額所以不一定就會導致當事人敗訴的這樣一個結論以上補充 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":11099.305,"end":11124.038,"text":"請問委員會對第11條的內容或者到16條有什麼意見來 請黃委員第一個 第11條的部分就有關於11條裡面所規定的各項就11條裡面所規定的各項因依職權調查事實關係不受當事人事實主張及證據聲明的拘束那這個不是本來就是行政訴訟的基本原則嗎"},{"start":11126.545,"end":11153.132,"text":"再寫一次的意義是什麼?我看不懂法官要適當的行使採名權或者是反過來講法官的採名權不僅僅是權利,更是法官的義務他要履行他的採名義務不是本來就這樣嗎?再寫一次是在幹嘛?是因為發現這個法典這部所謂的特別法"},{"start":11155.411,"end":11179.389,"text":"條文太少了行政訴訟的部分在超級條上來衝衝場面是這樣嗎我看不懂啊第二個唯一會讓我注意的就是當事人協力為之 前項調查當事人因協力為之所以你現在要把他連結的是證明度降低嗎"},{"start":11180.779,"end":11205.974,"text":"那你如果要把它連結的是證明度降低的話在有關於稅務處分之外的裁罰處分的這件事情我就不贊成如果會產生你所講的剛剛那個法律效果的話那我第十一條第一項第三項第四項第五項全部都是罪文全部都是罪文更沒必要寫啊"},{"start":11210.014,"end":11214.797,"text":"你寫這條要幹嘛?那行政訴訟法不就規範在那邊嗎?那全部再抄一次是在幹嘛?怎麼會有這麼拙劣的立法?規範的必要性在哪裡?唯一讓我看了覺得這個條文比較危險的就是有關於裁判處分的部分"},{"start":11235.816,"end":11252.618,"text":"如果你要連結的是說當事人的協力義務包括裁判處分然後會進一步連結他的法律效果是證明度降低那證明度降低當事人敗訴的風險就大幅的提高啊所以我反對第11條的條文"},{"start":11255.131,"end":11281.199,"text":"好謝謝那因為剛剛委員有提到包括裁罰的規定是在第13條那因為剛剛主席這邊已經說了接下來有關於當事人協力義務的部分含釋的範圍從11條到16條如果列席機關代表認為有必要你們可以就相關條文關係到的其他條文一併做說明那剛剛有委員垂詢到裁罰的必要的情況之下那規定在13條那是否有委員所提的情況請說明"},{"start":11294.674,"end":11320.063,"text":"主席的問題是可不可以再讓我們更明確一下因為剛剛有委員提到11條的內容就是重述行政訴訟法的內容那麼但是你們又列了到16條相關部分那因為呢關於當事人的協力義務之外因為當事人要承擔敗訴之風險嘛那這種情況之下對於他不配合或不盡協力義務的時候的裁罰的規定你們是規定在13條嘛"},{"start":11321.644,"end":11329.165,"text":"是不是那這個剛剛有委員在提到說你們這整個六個條文的規定的必要性嘛所以就請你們做說明來黃委員要先請這個剛剛這個黃委員其實已經講了第十一條的規定基本上是跟行政訴訟法第125條的規定一模一樣那有沒有在這裡多多寫一次的必要"},{"start":11349.727,"end":11375.705,"text":"那麼看起來如果說在當時的立法設計上面要特別再把第11條寫出來可能是跟第12條跟第13條的相關的規定有關因為在第12條裡面其實有對於就是持有資料的這個當事人如果說無正當理由不從提出之命的話是可以做強制處分而且也可以進行罰款那第13條的話也是針對"},{"start":11381.226,"end":11395.715,"text":"這個沒有正當理由不到場的話等等的這些有這樣的行為是可以處以罰緩的那麼所以就是說這裡可能還是有要再講一次就是如果說這一條不定的話那麼會影響到第12條跟第13條的規定嗎好 那麼列基官代表請說明"},{"start":11402.557,"end":11425.122,"text":"其實因為我們當時也是有討論過說11條要不要訂只是為了基於體力的完整性因為在講到說協力義務這一塊那所以認為說目前行政訴訟法125條第二項就有一般性協力義務的這樣一個規定所以我們才為了體力的完整性把它訂上來"},{"start":11426.522,"end":11450.732,"text":"那如果剛才委員講說11條不定那因為11條目前的條文是跟行政訴訟法125條是一樣的那我們相關的規範就可以適用回行政訴訟法的規定那所以後面如果沒有11條的把行政訴訟法125條移進來那你們後面的12條13條14條到16條都還可以附著嗎"},{"start":11459.914,"end":11472.672,"text":"那我們11條如果說不予增列的話那後面的條文可以繼續推進囉因為是跟125請說明"},{"start":11476.038,"end":11497.968,"text":"報告主席就是因為我們11條除了規範協力義務之外其實還有明定就是法院職權調查的義務那還有像第四項就是第三項就是審判長的產名義務跟第四項是訴訟照料的義務所以其實在這裡我們認為說還是如果規定"},{"start":11502.15,"end":11517.58,"text":"進來的話其實是比較完整,因為它不僅僅是規範協力義務而已然後更賦予法院有明確的揭露說法院有職權調查跟訴訟照料等相關義務請問就是你這個11條跟125條的文字是一模一樣吧應該是一模一樣對不對"},{"start":11529.326,"end":11556.574,"text":"好那這個確實就可以討論就是有沒有必要這個當然就是剛剛因為黃委員他有對這條到底要不要定有些疑慮嘛那我個人是認為說其實反正可定可不定定的話也許對於當事人來講可能看起來比較完整但是如果說認為不需要定的話那麼直接12 13條其實也不會影響到這個整部法律的體力"},{"start":11556.923,"end":11563.752,"text":"那重點我覺得還是在第12條跟第13條裡面涉及到有關於處罰的問題這才是大家最有爭議的"},{"start":11565.302,"end":11586.818,"text":"好 那麼翁委員的意見 就是說11條跟刑事訴訟125條一模一樣那如果我們在 因為我們本法 稅審法是新訂法所以沒有所謂的免於增列的問題他就是說 如果認為沒有這個條文的必要那有可能後面的條文 條次上如果有引述到11條 都可能因此而調整"},{"start":11587.839,"end":11602.07,"text":"那這個部分請趕快示範看一下那不然我們第十一條先暫時先暫保留我們先從十二條因為十一條可能就整個拿掉了那後面的條文會不會因此而受到影響十一條是不是在做一些補充數好來請副名長"},{"start":11603.271,"end":11624.806,"text":"其實有關於十一條要不要保留 當時在委員會的時候也把它當作一個議題 討論了很久可是最後很懸殊的十一票比一票大家都認為 絕大部分人都認為要保留那為什麼 就是說因為就是說十二條以下談的都是協力義務那是稅審法的一個特點沒錯那但是剛才那個廳長有講 那個"},{"start":11627.288,"end":11640.113,"text":"當事人協力義務跟法院那個職權調查事實上他們是互相補充的那如果說11條不定的話大家會不會誤解說那個職權不在了對所以說他是從這樣子就是說11條呢他雖然說是一個重複的一個條文但是是整個體系是這樣子下來的先把那個11條就是開宗明義還是講了"},{"start":11649.617,"end":11673.345,"text":"行政法院他有那個職權調查事實在下一個協力義務是擺在這邊的那個角色那以下那個協力義務呢都還是在整個這個體系底下開展下來的也因此大家認為說如果不這樣子的話是不是還要再怎麼樣的那個說明就是大家才會了解說這個關係那以上做一個補充報告"},{"start":11674.244,"end":11700.571,"text":"好謝謝副秘書長也容主席這邊說明從稅申法我們從詢答還有公聽會大體討論一直以來那包括今天委員上午在委員會的各種討論雖然司法院在新訂法上都強調了這也是關係到納稅義務人本身的權利的保障透過程序上來完整化他的規定但是文字上呢包括剛剛在第十條是否要依職權"},{"start":11701.611,"end":11711.048,"text":"的文字要不要納入這樣的事項上相對於行政法院所刻意的義務包括依職權來調查的義務你們也覺得如果沒有放這11條那麼因為11條關於的是"},{"start":11715.267,"end":11735.76,"text":"那個行政法院有他的議職權應該的義務那納稅義務人也有協力之義務但是呢你剛剛也說了從12條以後都是在規範納稅義務人的協力義務所以難免會讓委員覺得說整個稅審法有點像不要說像行政機關啦有點像行政法院像"},{"start":11737.475,"end":11754.783,"text":"司法機關來傾斜啦就是同樣的都要求行政法院要議資源要去做什麼什麼事情也要求納稅一輪要什麼什麼的事情但是對於納稅一輪做或不做你們有規定很多那麼對於行政法院本身應職權應作為的事情就只有個概括性的描述而已所以從11條到第16條11條你們也是象徵性的"},{"start":11758.805,"end":11772.151,"text":"行政訴訟法第125條搬進來然後表達說有職權的行政法院有職權的義務納稅義務人也有協力義務可是後面的條文都是在規範納稅義務人我只是說一般外界從條文的設計觀感上來講會有點對於納稅義務人比較嚴苛啦"},{"start":11777.993,"end":11803.482,"text":"我想這是今天一直主席以來一直聽到現在以來的感覺難怪委員一直對於說這個稅審法的設置到底有沒有有利於納稅藝人他的權利的保障的部分才會不斷的提出納保法的一些精神才會提出說我們這樣的一個程序性的規定可不可以去侵犯到其他實體法的規定我想這個都可以在後面的闡述請你們一一補充那因為委員的提議那我們就先從第12條繼續好不好來 翁委員請"},{"start":11806.4,"end":11819.951,"text":"建議就是說你們在第11條的立法理由裡面因為在第一點裡面說參考行政訴訟法第125條第一項但是其實你們是參考整個行政訴訟法的125條所以我建議說第一項的這個可以刪除"},{"start":11824.995,"end":11851.233,"text":"是不是 你們是整個就參考 因為你們的條文是跟行政訴訟法一模一樣的所以多 第11條的立法理由的第一點 立法理由的第一點報告委員 我們會引127條第一項是因為它針對第一項 本草案本條的第一項因為委員可以看一下我們的說明五 說明五最後"},{"start":11851.673,"end":11866.439,"text":"他也說訂定第四項是參考行政訴訟法125條第四項的規定所以我們是是拆開來對啦我知道你們是拆開來每一項每一項但是其實你們其實就是把這個條文就是整個行政訴訟法125條就搬到這邊的第11條"},{"start":11868.76,"end":11892.423,"text":"OK這是立法理由給你們一點建議或許可以把它講得更清楚就是你整個就是參考一二五條好那麼我們第十一條還是先暫保留那我們繼續往十二條以後推進那麼先處理一個程序上的宣告由於上午會議截止時間將屆我們先處理會議時間上午會議時間繼續進行至議程所列事項告一段落為止謝謝那我們繼續那請就十二條來表示意見"},{"start":11904.333,"end":11920.988,"text":"12條的規範目的是認為說行政法院為了要認定事實是可以命納稅義務人或者是他的代表人管理人或者是有權代表之人"},{"start":11921.849,"end":11945.4,"text":"提出其依法應提供的這些相關資料那第三項是考慮到境外的資料那如果涉及到境外的資料而且這個資料是納稅醫務人員委託第三人第三人保管的話那這個時候是可以命第三人然後提出這個境外的相關資料"},{"start":11946.44,"end":11972.72,"text":"那第四項的規定當然就是說賦予它一個法律效果就是如果你沒有正當理由不提出的話法院於必要時得以裁定為強制處分那在跟委員報告的是說這裡我們雖然是規範納稅義務人的協力義務但是其實當事人的另一兆也就是稅捐機關"},{"start":11973.641,"end":11990.937,"text":"因為他根據行政訴訟法164條的規定他本來如果他是機關為當事人的時候他本來就他所長有的這一些的文書資料他就是有提出的義務所以機關的提出義務已經明定在"},{"start":11992.478,"end":12016.269,"text":"這個行政訴訟法的規定那這是跟委員報告的那我們有比較過就是說當事人資料提出的義務那相關的義務其實都是行政訴訟法有規範那唯一不一樣的是第四項的部分就是我們這個時候除了法院如果在當事人"},{"start":12017.049,"end":12036.682,"text":"不從提出文書之命他除了可以適用行政訴訟法165條的規定去做一些這個判斷之外他還有如果認為必要的時候在這裡我們賦予他是說可以以裁定為強制處分"},{"start":12038.383,"end":12054.037,"text":"那所以跟委員報告的就是這裡以裁定為強制處分是目前行政訴訟法所沒有的規定但是也要同時跟委員敘明就是說這一條的規定仍然有行政訴訟法165條規定的適用"},{"start":12062.435,"end":12076.002,"text":"好 那麼請委員會注意剛剛列席官代表提到第12條的第4項的時候有特別提醒大家看我們立法說明了第5項那裡面有援引行政書長第165條的一些規範好 那麼請問委員會對於第12條或者說後續12 13 14 15 16都可以一併表示意見"},{"start":12091.718,"end":12119.057,"text":"好來 翁委員請其實從12條之後呢其實就是我們剛剛所討論的裡面會克與就是當事人的協力義務而且對於違反這樣的協力義務行政法院其實有蠻大的權力不僅可以做強制處分甚至還可以對違反協力義務者然後進行處罰那但是呢這就讓我又回想到我們在國會改革釋憲案裡面"},{"start":12121.274,"end":12144.371,"text":"那麼其實對於行政官員到立法院來備詢來接受質詢我們針對如果說無故缺席或是沒有配合立法院委員的要求要提出相關的一些資料證據然後除以"},{"start":12147.208,"end":12160.513,"text":"處罰那麼大法官都認為說其實這些官員是沒有配合的義務沒有配合立法院的義務沒有法律的義務那麼如果說真的看到這些官員那麼他們說謊"},{"start":12162.494,"end":12182.865,"text":"無故缺席提供虛偽資料那可以透過其他的手段然後去制裁他們但是不能夠科與處罰那同樣的邏輯就在第12條第13條等等這些規律對於當事人他們如果沒有配合行政法院的要求提供相關的"},{"start":12185.561,"end":12208.188,"text":"這個資料證據或是沒有出席但其實法院也可以依照他們的這個行為就科與他們就不利的這個裁判那麼有沒有必要要到就是要去科處罰緩的這件事情而且剛剛聽起來像是第12條的第4項"},{"start":12211.521,"end":12239.727,"text":"這個強制處分的規定也是不同於現在行政訴訟法裡面的規定這是你們這次特別這個新立的新增訂的這樣的一個規定所以這個整個的整體來說就行政法院的手段會不會太強了那在這次的稅審法的草案其實已經有不少的"},{"start":12241.243,"end":12259.154,"text":"外界的專家學者也認為說在這個稅審法裡面有很多的規定是像是行政訴訟法的一個特別規定那麼如果說要整個要拉高整個行政訴訟法裡面對於行政法院"},{"start":12260.409,"end":12288.934,"text":"在進行裁判的時候一些他的這個行為的這個效力的話那應該要整體的去檢討行政訴訟法相關規定可是呢在稅審法裡面卻又定了不少是有別於行政訴訟法的規定所以對於第四條第四項現在12條第四項這裡有沒有必要以裁定要為強制處分這個部分我是有疑慮的"},{"start":12296.016,"end":12310.486,"text":"這條規定對於當事人違反資料提出義務的話他的法律效果是可以得以裁定為強制處分或者是如我剛才講的就用到行政訴訟法165條也就是"},{"start":12312.788,"end":12341.61,"text":"可以斟酌情形認為他照關於該文書的主張或該文書陰證的事實為真實那只有在第三人違反這一項協力義務的時候才會有多一個罰還的處分所以罰還是指罰第三人在當事人納稅義務人的這一個部分是沒有罰還的規定的在這裡的話罰第三人合理嗎"},{"start":12343.066,"end":12359.483,"text":"好請說明這第三人可能是配合的是處分機關還是指的是當事人因為其實我們不罰當事人是因為說是說用行政訴訟法165條的規定因為他是訴訟的當事人嘛"},{"start":12362.847,"end":12387.869,"text":"那如果斟酌證據的結果認為他不提出結果認為他照主張該項文書為真實其實他是敗訴的責任因為他可歸則但是第三人因為他不是訴訟當事人我們沒有辦法運用這樣的規定因為第三人不提出就導致原告納稅一文的訴訟遭受不利益的結果因此才會在科與一個罰緩處分"},{"start":12389.27,"end":12395.877,"text":"那這個也是目前行政訴訟法相關的規定也是這麼規定的關於第三人的部分好 關於第12條委員垂詢的部分以及第四項那麼都有做回應了還有 委員要繼續追問嗎"},{"start":12411.218,"end":12435.459,"text":"對我這裡其實我還就是能不能舉一個例子或是不知道次長這裡有沒有在過去你們的實務案例上面有沒有可能會是有這個第三人不配合然後而要受到處罰這個翁委員你的科稅資料就放在我這邊了假設當然了這個牽扯到整個協力義務"},{"start":12439.002,"end":12452.797,"text":"我就說我從第一天到剛剛我在談的時候還沒離開本委員到別的委員會之前我現在談的是說我們既然去把德國這些精華把它給移過來 寄授過來的話"},{"start":12454.358,"end":12476.33,"text":"那本來這個就是一個觀念的一個變革啦否則的話你如果剛剛像黃國昌委員在我相信他也受到很多不一樣的團體的一些請託那那一些也倒也不是說沒有道理但問題就是說涉及到你變成整個制度小怕電啦 小怕電啦"},{"start":12477.25,"end":12493.406,"text":"你如果認為你要嚴格去採行整個用整個刑事訴訟法的觀點去看待他的話那確實是你連協力義務都沒有可是你如果看這個人有時候觀念就看你怎麼樣去看待一個"},{"start":12494.467,"end":12508.003,"text":"一個整個像進入到訴訟案件裡面你說國家就要去科稅那像譬如說要跟公務員你科稅可是你的基本的資料你要委託放在我這個地方"},{"start":12509.144,"end":12516.448,"text":"我這個地方如果說完全都沒有任何的協力的義務的話這個案子又會開花你去看整個行政訴訟法裡面165條跟到169條169條的部分他是在講說可以第三人的罰款的部分這個本來行政訴訟法本來就有這樣的規定"},{"start":12527.515,"end":12541.42,"text":"那你如果認為說這部法令我們這個稅務行政審理法的部分它是它的特別法的話那你去准用到169這個是又合理啦但是在第三人的部分"},{"start":12544.975,"end":12568.656,"text":"我是認為是有道理啦 我是認為是有道理啦但是你的疑慮 你剛提到的是說那我們在整個前面 大法官世事會議裡面的解釋其實大法官 憲法庭那一號的一個解釋是在講說對第三人這個裁罰 那這個是專屬於就司法機關啦到認為立法機關沒有這樣的一個權限"},{"start":12569.817,"end":12580.623,"text":"所以這樣的一個比喻 這個我當然尊重但是我是認為比較 跟這個地方比較是無關只是涉及到第三人部分不知道咧 大家再討論看看"},{"start":12586.837,"end":12606.597,"text":"好 這樣好不好 那麼在場委員 因為事實上第11條到第16條上次是應委員請求我們就先不處理那今天本來要處理 但是處理起來似乎有不同意見者 或者有保留意見者仍然沒有參與審查"},{"start":12607.958,"end":12626.765,"text":"所以我是不是建議這樣我們先就今天在場委員之前的暫保留條文當中有在場的部分我們先處理好不好因為這樣子才能把握各位委員在場時間我們做有效率的推進那我是不是建議委員會我們先11到16因為剛剛11條已經表達意見了12條已經表達意見了但是接下來13 14 15 16"},{"start":12628.806,"end":12650.979,"text":"感覺上還是暫時先因為我們等於是啟動處理但是有相關委員的意見沒有進來那我們先進行27條好不好因為27條是上次翁委員在場翁委員非常關心的第27條行政法院認同原處分複查決定或訴願決定之理由者得於裁判中"},{"start":12652.298,"end":12677.193,"text":"引用之那您提出說這個是不是行政訴訟法當中應該也要有但是那時候沒有那我們現在在這個特別法先這樣規定是否恰當上次我記得討論是到這裡那是不是今天可以就這個部分繼續闡明是否我整理一下上次的爭點上次爭點是這個條文的規定在原來行政訴訟法當中並沒有"},{"start":12679.634,"end":12697.973,"text":"那我們現在在特別法當中先把它規定了這是可能對於納稅義務人士有利的那但是呢我們要等到行政事務手法有了這邊就不用規定了還是這邊可以先規定未來我們行政事務手法認為有道理再把它補充進去大概是這樣子 我覺得上次討論的內容那請教在場委員跟公務委員"},{"start":12704.246,"end":12711.893,"text":"那個列席機關有可以就這部分的一個有一個什麼樣的說法可以讓委員會覺得我們就在稅審法當中先於規範"},{"start":12715.701,"end":12741.708,"text":"報告委員們那其實這一條就是因為目前行政訴訟法的規定只能夠是上級審跟下級審法律見解一樣的話他可以引用下級審裁判的理由那這一條是針對我們稅務訴訟尤其是像原處分複查決定跟這個訴願決定的理由在目前行政訴訟法的規定是沒有辦法引用的那"},{"start":12742.468,"end":12770.49,"text":"之前也有跟委員報告其實這一條除了是我們是希望能夠其中一個目標是希望能夠減輕法官的負擔簡化判決書的製作那因為去年其實發生了一件法官的一個不幸事件那我們也很感謝委員們都很關心法官過勞的工作的狀況那所以也督促司法院要採行檢法工程"},{"start":12771.19,"end":12785.684,"text":"所以司法院在這裡也做了一些檢法的工程我們也是希望如果委員能夠支持如果這部法案能夠通過就先在這裡通過我覺得對法官來講那個意義應該也是不一樣的"},{"start":12789.187,"end":12811.345,"text":"就是可以感受到各界委員的關心那如果之後有機會我們行政訴訟法或相關的法律我們再逐步來採取同步的修正那以上 謝謝謝謝莊委員我有一個問題要問因為有時候司法實務上你常常會碰到那個判決"},{"start":12813.82,"end":12823.748,"text":"或者說你那個原來行政部門的處分看起來是結果你的判斷法官判斷是對可是那個理由也是很瞎"},{"start":12831.765,"end":12860.604,"text":"你們不是那個你們現在講的是處分我現在講的是理由對 是說裁判是我們希望能夠在法官的裁判書類可以用那可以用就是代表他所表示的一些的見解你把他的理由這邊去做一個引用是已經在稅務訴訟這一塊是普遍共同都認同的見解那我們在講說那法官在判決時"},{"start":12861.084,"end":12867.255,"text":"可是你進行到你到稅務輸送的時候你搞不好當事人又提出新的供給防禦方法"},{"start":12868.516,"end":12892.929,"text":"對 那就要寫啊但是現在是說如果訴願決定或複查決定他的理由啊我們認為是可採的 合理的或他表示法律見解我們認為就已經是通實務通一般性的見解了那我們是不是就可以直接引用那當然如果他寫得不好我們當然不會用法官就會自行在裁判書理由裡面來交代好 好"},{"start":12894.312,"end":12922.043,"text":"好 謝謝喔 那個跟委員說明因為我們可以參考行政訴訟法第261-1它是指最高行政法院可以如與高等行政法院判決相同的引用之啦那麼這個在行政法院有這樣的規定是在最高跟高等之間那現在呢 行政法院可不可以也是一樣認同原處分機關的這些相關的內容好 那我這樣好不好 那個委員因為上次您表達這樣意見之後呢他們也經過了解了"},{"start":12922.443,"end":12938.171,"text":"那剛剛我聽起來司法機關也表達說是為了減少我們法院的負擔在書寫相關的內容的時候呢可以對於適當的內容就直接引用那這個程序上是有助於我們"},{"start":12939.54,"end":12965.87,"text":"審判品質的提升啦那是否呢這一條喔老實說從今天一直到現在大家都充分發言嘛那主席這邊也很希望說上市站保留這個部分如果大家覺得經過了一段時間的沉澱是否可以因為他的關係到我們今天的增點的部分不大幾乎沒有涉及到相關的所謂的協力義務啦還是稅審官的部分純粹只是就法院他要在做在做"},{"start":12967.03,"end":12976.276,"text":"這個裁判的時候呢他可以減少他的負擔那是否可以請求我們委員會這一條是不是可以來予通過好不好來請翁委員"},{"start":12980.515,"end":13004.446,"text":"其實還是這個回到我們之前所講的就是其實稅審法裡面有一些規定它確實是看起來想要當成是行政訴訟法的一個特別的規定那麼剛剛講的不管是27條或是前面的條文如果說真的認為有必要"},{"start":13007.412,"end":13034.411,"text":"是为了要减轻法官的负担简化判决书的自作然后有必要检讨的话我认为还是要整体的检讨整体的检讨你就是直接去修行政诉讼法就好了这是我们在上次的时候就讲的而且你27条你有规定没规定其实这个对于法官来讲当然可能他就少一些裁判所的作业可是那为什么在原来的行政诉讼法里面他没有规定"},{"start":13035.231,"end":13061.431,"text":"就沒有要求就是說可以解免這個法官的製作判決書的這樣的一個這樣的責任一定也有他的道理好 跟翁偉遠說明要不要請稅務機關表達意見因為他們上次是提到說複查決定這在其他行政訴訟完全沒有的其實不少法官其實也是會援引這個行政處分裡面的一些理由啊那麼請那個翁偉遠我們請那個稅務機關請財政部代表說明"},{"start":13065.848,"end":13081.318,"text":"主要是27條因為他這邊的規範他有引用到他提到就是複查決定或訴願決定因為行政訴訟法一般我們稅務事件的審理只有稅務事件的審理有複查決定這個程序"},{"start":13082.102,"end":13108.988,"text":"所以在這邊把複查決定寫進來那將來如果在行政訴訟碼要修的話會變成可能要特別強調特別強調是稅務事件才有複查決定它這個複查決定是行政訴訟法裡面沒有的啦是只有我們稅捐積增法裡面的稅務訴訟的程序有這個程序這樣子其實就譬如說像教育教育事務裡面它也有所謂再申訴吧"},{"start":13110.39,"end":13127.876,"text":"它也是兩個管道一個訴願管道一個是申訴再申訴其實如果說就這樣子一個法理來說如果我們認為說它是未來是有效可以減輕法官的負擔然後簡化判決書製作的話行政訴訟法的修正應該要整體的檢討修正包含原來的處分"},{"start":13132.937,"end":13157.782,"text":"然後複查決定或是再申訴的決定等等的那麼我覺得還是應該要一併來檢討會比較好就有這條跟沒這條會影響到稅務行政現在就是在這個稅務行政審理法來說的話我覺得應該沒有差別太大這點應該比較沒爭議它是把行政訴訟法裡面沒有你那個複查決定你放在整個稅務訴訟法裡面你把它給放進來不可以"},{"start":13159.602,"end":13163.224,"text":"就是沒有允許行政法院可以將原處分我的疑慮就是說行政訴訟法我都認為我可以理解啦但是27條這個部分我看來是比較沒有爭議而且對訴訟當事人來看的話他權益也不會去受損反而是比較在於"},{"start":13181.736,"end":13187.342,"text":"在整個法官他整個書類的製作把它做簡化的問題其實現在書類製作會增加有多少負擔嗎會喔我覺得要不要再解釋清楚一點請說明 解釋清楚"},{"start":13199.695,"end":13227.682,"text":"對就是說如果說你不直接引用的話是你要重新再審理各個不同的理由再把每個理由你為什麼支持原處分的理由再寫一遍的意思嗎不用寫就不用寫就是說關於這一個部分的爭執就是理由就如這個訴願決定或者複查決定的記載這樣子是但是現在不是也都會在這個訴願決定跟原處分決定也都會列在那個判決理由啊在前面的幾項裡面"},{"start":13233.072,"end":13242.998,"text":"所以交代過也是有它的好處因為它可以讓當事人還有最後在研究法院判決的專家學者們可以更了解它整個脈絡"},{"start":13245.263,"end":13254.227,"text":"那你去看喔 那個歐元這個書類的簡化那確實是幫助很大喔你看以前那個解說書喔 那大本啦現在這樣簡單寫著以後 後面的證據清單證人的證人名什麼的寫下來以後 代證資質什麼的以後不是貼上 很快的"},{"start":13264.032,"end":13284.023,"text":"確實這個部分我認為27條啦27條是到不會涉及到你所擔憂的說被對當事人來講會有什麼樣的一個不利益啦是單純的書類的一個簡化這個我們在社會法制委員會裡面我們一直在支持他們的事情我反而在整個稅務訴訟法裡面把它放進去是一個進步的啦"},{"start":13285.144,"end":13311.503,"text":"應該這麼說我當然是支持任何可以去減輕法官負擔裁判書簡化的這個規定的修正只是認為說在這件事情上面應該是要讓司法院去積極的去研修行政訴訟法而不是說他們這個現在修了這個訴審法之後那行政訴訟法然後之後呢也沒修更何況我還是認為說就整個的法院"},{"start":13312.304,"end":13316.205,"text":"法官在做相關判決的時候還是要有一個一致性的標準我認為這比較好更何況就現在的法官的這個因為數位化電子化他們的這個裁判的製作應該是比早期還用手寫的時候要這個要簡單一些了那麼如果說從對於當事人還有對於就是外部的這個人士對於這個判決有興趣要研讀的話那當然還是"},{"start":13342.37,"end":13358.088,"text":"法院在判決書裡面能夠完整呈現他所做成的理由我覺得這個是比較重要的所以第27條的部分我建議如果我是認為說應該就還是回到原來行政訴訟法相關規定是沒有必要在這裡有多規定這一項"},{"start":13360.579,"end":13385.827,"text":"謝謝翁委員的寶貴意見那麼容本席主席這邊稍微描述一下過去當立法委員期間我們受理陳情的情況可能大家在剛剛的討論中以為只有簡化書狀只是減輕法官的裁判負擔那讓那個審判書的內容不要負擔那麼重不要那麼厚一本那其實呢就我們過去在受理民眾民眾常常覺得法院的判決書"},{"start":13387.347,"end":13398.991,"text":"他們真的覺得要能從頭讀到尾的耐性實在是理解力上是有限所以往往都要聽從訴訟代理人或請求專業律師的協助當我們拿到民眾陳情給我們看一本厚厚的判決書的時候我們就會發現有時候呢的確就成如剛剛莊委員所說的一個簡單的判決他引用了原來的這個處分或者是複查決定我們還要回去翻查我們的確要翻查原來"},{"start":13415.436,"end":13437.849,"text":"陳先生所提供的那一落落場 我們就告訴他說這就是當初是就應該跟你講過了就是這樣理由 現在換他判了也是這個理由當時人還是會覺得說這些是在講什麼這我也是提出說這個我們的本法剛在第一條都提到就是整個的程序經濟那其實呢 如果這27條的內容上他會讓我們的審判判決書比較經濟比較讓"},{"start":13443.832,"end":13449.234,"text":"接到判決書的當事人他能夠去理解原來就是那一句話就是行政法院的判決就是如複查決定你就回去看你的複查決定這個其實就我們在處理陳情的時候呢也是很有幫助啦我只是說明說這個事情上不涉及到我們今天法案那幾個大家關注的爭點只是為了未來的書類啦"},{"start":13468.661,"end":13473.404,"text":"法官的書寫負擔還有包括接到判決書等的閱讀的負荷都有改善的餘地不過既然翁委員這麼堅持我們也沒有辦法往前推進還好黃委員回來了因為我們剛剛處理到第11條的部分那12條也表示意見了不過剛剛主席這邊請求委員會同意的處理方式就是11到16委員就這個整個核心"},{"start":13497.939,"end":13504.25,"text":"納稅義務人的協力義務的部分來進行意見表達那接下來呢我們還是一樣27條委員堅持我們還是暫保留那請黃委員"},{"start":13507.808,"end":13537.408,"text":"那個11條到16條我都有意見啦所以我的意見很清楚全部保留剛剛我說過了第二個部分現在已經是12點16分了嘛原例之前在處理妨礙司法公正罪的時候民進黨的委員都要求中午要休息嘛那請原例請主席宣告休息看你要休息到一點半休息到兩點通通都可以是不是針對我這個會議程序上面的事情請主席先處理"},{"start":13539.289,"end":13562.039,"text":"跟委員說明剛剛已經有做宣告了本來我們就是說會告一段落後繼續處理那因為剛剛我們在處理11條到16條的時候黃委員不在那上次也是應黃委員的表達所以我們把11條到16條保留到本次會議進行處理那我們今天處理的時候您又剛好不在那現在您一回來就是希望說"},{"start":13565.081,"end":13582.549,"text":"您說的保留是指條文保留可能是以送出委員會之後再協商的意思但是今天大家都很誠懇的想要聽有不同意見委員對於11條到16條協力義務的看法那是不是這個部分委員有要表達意見"},{"start":13586.318,"end":13615.469,"text":"先做一個程序上的說明啊我在立法院裡面的工作啊是沒有在閒著的我剛離開做什麼我先去交通委員會質詢質詢完以後我又去經濟委員會質詢兩場質詢趕完以後我人就回來現場了那你如果要問我的話到目前為止稅務行政事件審理法我只能夠說啦整個立法上面能不能夠達成立法的目的"},{"start":13616.482,"end":13623.548,"text":"都已經有一個很大的問號從今天討論的過程當中更是坑坑巴巴的"},{"start":13624.639,"end":13648.233,"text":"一條一條下去實際上面的討論才知道當初司法院所提出來的條文有多麼的粗糙至於說今天早上稅務行政事件審理法裡面本司法法治委員會的委員誰認真在審法案誰是連來都沒有來每一個公民眼睛都有"},{"start":13649.393,"end":13676.016,"text":"會看這整個會議的歷程所以我還是回來請主席按照上一次民主進步黨委員在處理妨礙司法公正罪的時候要求會議審理的原則中午的時候是不是可以請主席針對這個程序上面的事項先宣告先休息下午看幾點要再繼續開始審查是不是可以請主席先處理這件事情"},{"start":13678.507,"end":13704.576,"text":"謝謝 那麼我想本來主席就對於今天議事的推進就是希望早上整天的討論能夠有所進展那既然我們上午努力的就原來的第10條的處理內容廣泛的交換意見那也沒有辦法達成共識 也是暫保留那麼上次委員有意見的第27條我們經過了雙方意見的陳述有希望能夠處理 那也是沒有辦法推進"},{"start":13705.436,"end":13729.333,"text":"那至於上次委員會所未處理的第11條到16條以及第25條的部分那因應委員今天在上午的討論當中大部分都在處理第10條那麼我們本來希望進行的11到16條的處理由於時間所限現在也見中午休息時間了所以主席在這裡宣告"},{"start":13729.813,"end":13736.439,"text":"我們休息到下午一點半後我們繼續開會希望下午能夠繼續處理關於我們的協力義務以及我們關於稅審官的設置的問題那現在我們休息"},{"start":18350.967,"end":18367.886,"text":"好 繼續開會繼續進行討論事項第一案之逐條審查好 請問請教一下現在兩個人可以開會我們只是做討論而已沒有要做出處理要到人數夠才能處理所以其實還是尊重委員"},{"start":18483.375,"end":18497.166,"text":"請問在場委員會在場委員因為我們接下來上午已經有討論到12條那麼上午的進行的進度呢是到16條之前都有委員來提出他們對於包括"},{"start":18498.846,"end":18512.836,"text":"當事人協同義務的 協力義務的部分那協力義務的部分因為散見在每個條文的規定那麼上午的部分有討論到十二條的部分那麼後續我們還是繼續由委員們就這個協力義務的部分進行表示意見還請黃委員我先確認一下現在是會議進行中哪一種嗎"},{"start":18524.23,"end":18538.59,"text":"現在是繼續開會因為我們會議是成立的那麼但是呢如果現場要做任何條文的處理一定要人數到達法定額數但是討論是可以進行只是條文的處理一定要符合規定"},{"start":18539.929,"end":18562.918,"text":"但是我們可以做意見的討論不是啊 那現在代表是現在都沒辦法處理就對了嗎譬如說啦是 請我現在要求第十一條保留那主席可以財事保留嗎沒有辦法那沒辦法 那這樣講下去有什麼意思各位委員報告因為我們還有十三 十四 十五 十六都是上市保留未經處理的暫保留未經處理的"},{"start":18857.329,"end":18858.711,"text":"有沒有對於11條 因為我現在不能說謝謝"},{"start":18909.858,"end":18935.833,"text":"好那麼謝謝委員那現在我們上午已經處理到第不是處理已經討論到第12條那事實上呢從11條12條的部分呢我們都是進行意見交換那麼在場的委員對於11條到第16條"},{"start":18939.526,"end":18958.027,"text":"當事人協力義務的部分有沒有需要我們行政機關在座闡明的來請黃委員第11條的部分我已經清楚表達我反對的意見了那我是提議第11條保留我們一條一條往下走"},{"start":18960.756,"end":18981.556,"text":"謝謝委員的意見那事實上上午委員會我們也都是就11條到第16條都做意見交換11條的部分上午是先暫保留那下午的部分12條也討論了討論到一部分那但是就是尊重委員會的意見那麼是否我們因為當時12條也沒有做成任何的決定那還有13條14條15條那麼"},{"start":18985.459,"end":19002.385,"text":"還有到16條是不是請委員會委員對於這相關條文因為要說明一下上次我們要處理要進行審查的時候有委員提出就是在場的黃委員提出11條到16條以及第25條11條到第16條是當事人的協力義務25條是稅審官的設置那麼這已經在委員會重複表達過多次了那麼應由委員要求所以我們將它沒有處理"},{"start":19014.289,"end":19027.2,"text":"那沒有處理就是連討論都沒有討論那因此今天上午我們除了第10條進行討論之外那麼還有第27條上市委員討論的部分似乎有可能在得到共識那麼因此有在做處理做討論"},{"start":19029.742,"end":19047.24,"text":"那麼接下來我們就是進行11條到第16條的討論那11條的部分委員有表示一些意見不過今天上午的委員有對11條表示意見的委員目前不在有陳委員有在陳委員就有這個表示意見那12條的部分"},{"start":19049.022,"end":19068.863,"text":"也有委員表示意見但是委員也不在所以是不是請就12條到16條的部分因為這是剛剛才開始處理的所以委員會希望委員可以就這個內容上表達具體意見那麼就算是最後的處理我們也很清楚可以知道提交給院會之前我們具體的建議是什麼來 請歡迎委員"},{"start":19073.67,"end":19088.796,"text":"為什麼說我建議一條一條來啊那十一條的部分不是沒討論啊上午就討論啊我發言還發言了不少啊那我現在要求的就是按照我們本委員會過去在處理相關法案的時候我們處理的基本原則啊委員有意見就保留啊我做的只有這樣子的要求而已啊是不是第十一條的部分"},{"start":19101.804,"end":19128.498,"text":"我請求11條的部分保留是不是可以請主席先處理好 那麼11條的確上午委員表示意見的時候是認為跟行政訴訟法當中是重複那請問機關有沒有要再表示意見說這裡面因為後面你們有講到12條的部分有涉及到如果沒有11條那麼12條全部都是就當事人的部分的指導那麼對於11條的部分只有"},{"start":19129.588,"end":19156.29,"text":"就是重複而已是不是機關可以再讓你們表達意見我們就處理好不好請主席跟各位委員那我們就重申我們的立場就是11條如果留下來的話它整個體系體力上看起來是會比較完整比較漂亮那如果就是說要保留的話這我們也尊重委員會的決定好謝謝那我們11條就保留接下來我們進行12條請"},{"start":19159.522,"end":19183.699,"text":"12條的部分一樣我們一項一項來先就12條第一項當事人就與裁判有關係的事實因為真實及完全的陳述就這個部分當事人真實完全陳述的義務跟目前行政訴訟法的規定到底有什麼不一樣請市法院說明好請陳庭長這目前是跟行政訴訟法122條的第二項規定是相同的"},{"start":19189.471,"end":19200.809,"text":"等一下喔 來來來行政訴訟法不好意思喔 你稍微等我一下因為我行政訴訟法的條文沒有那麼熟第一次"},{"start":19206.937,"end":19221.815,"text":"行政訴訟法122條第二項第二項當事人應就訴訟關係為事實上及法律上的陳述拜託拜託真實完全陳述的義務跟行政訴訟法122條第二項一樣"},{"start":19224.5,"end":19241.175,"text":"你是講錯還是沒講錯啊 拜託你們好不好真實完全陳述的義務行政訴訟法準用民事訴訟法195條來來來 我帶司法院的官員看一下條文 先翻一下132條132條準用民事訴訟法195條的規定"},{"start":19254.751,"end":19268.346,"text":"來看一下195條的規定當事人就其所提出的事實因為真實及完全的陳述這個才是真實完全陳述義務的條文啊啊你們行政那你們司法院的官員怎麼對行政訴訟法會這麼不熟亂引條文啊"},{"start":19279.724,"end":19291.629,"text":"要答覆嗎?當然啊不是啊 官員坐在這邊列席法條做說明要負責任的啊真實完全陳述的義務怎麼會是行政訴訟法122條第二項好 請列席一貫代表說明"},{"start":19297.591,"end":19322.952,"text":"我們這一條是綜合了122條跟民事訴訟法195條還有德國財務法院法76條的規定所做的你不是說什麼叫做綜合規定然後就這樣子就過去了先看一下行政訴訟法真實完全陳述的義務是准用民事訴訟法195條的規定"},{"start":19325.697,"end":19345.302,"text":"民事訴訟法195條的規定當事人就其提出的事實因為真實及完全的陳述然後你們現在是當事人就裁判有關的事實因為真實及完全的陳述那我的問題來了行政訴訟法准用民事訴訟法195條第一項的規定"},{"start":19348.072,"end":19366.79,"text":"跟你們現在在稅務行政事件審理法裡面第十二條第一項前段的規定法條所用的文字顯有不同你們是有意做特別規定嗎如果有意做特別規定的話理由何在說明一下"},{"start":19369.932,"end":19388.04,"text":"主席這邊也問一下因為122條第二項是寫事實上及法律上之陳述那剛剛機關代表說是寫真實及完全之陳述用詞是不太一樣那你們意思是一樣的意思嗎不一樣啦不一樣你去看嘛"},{"start":19389.797,"end":19408.888,"text":"行政訴訟法的122條第二項當事人應就訴訟關係為事實上及法律上面的陳述這一個陳述之本身這一個陳述之本身跟我們在講的當事人就事實上面應有真實及完全陳述之義務是兩回事情是兩回事情這沒有真的 我覺得有點混淆了因為12條的文字跟"},{"start":19417.441,"end":19423.754,"text":"行政署長122條的文字不太一樣那請機關長明確說明是一樣還是不一樣還是哪裡不一樣"},{"start":19425.516,"end":19453.726,"text":"就是法條的用語沒有完全的一致但是我們的立法的目的跟精神都是一樣那當時人到法院來做的陳述當然應該是要做一個真實的陳述不可能做一個虛偽的陳述那所以我們在這邊而且是就與裁判有關的事實那我們還就事實的部分在限定是限定與裁判有關的事實那這是以上不同的地方 謝謝"},{"start":19454.446,"end":19481.402,"text":"不是啊 請你們解釋並不是進行法條進行說文解釋嘛剛剛我就講了啊目前行政訴訟法準用的是民事訴訟法195條的規定嘛民事訴訟法195條第一項之規定當事人就其所提出之事實因為真實及完全的陳述這個在行政訴訟的領域裡面有適用我的第一個問題是那你在稅務行政事件審理法裡面"},{"start":19482.762,"end":19501.384,"text":"第十二條的第一項前段再寫一次寫的方法不一樣本來用行政訴訟法準用民事訴訟法的規定會有什麼問題第二個在法條的文字上是有意的區別對待還是無心為之"},{"start":19505.31,"end":19531.08,"text":"這個是不是容我說明一下那個民事訴訟法195條它的那個用語說當事人就其提出了事實那這個事實上是在那個民事訴訟辯論主義底下就只有那個當事人他所提出的那個事實呢法院才能夠斟酌那所以就是在這邊的那個文字它是就是因為行政訴訟採的是那個職權主義"},{"start":19533.681,"end":19557.074,"text":"所以他並不是說就只有限於當事人他自己要提出來的而是就那個裁判有關的事實啊那再來就是說為什麼會跟行政訴訟的這個條文不一樣呢他是有業區別行政訴訟這邊呢就是完整完整陳述的這個範圍呢除了事實還有有關於法律所以等一下我看一下條文"},{"start":19560.456,"end":19574.785,"text":"就是122條第二項就是就訴訟關係為事實及法律上的陳述那這個地方是把那個法律呢這個地方就是有意的把它那個排除掉就只有涉及到裁判的事實請換委員我就跟你們講你們在引的那個行政訴訟法122條"},{"start":19586.892,"end":19599.896,"text":"第二項的規定來看一下民事訴訟法193條第一項當事人應就訴訟關係為事實上及法律上的陳述不是長得一模一樣你行政訴訟法122條你剛剛所講的122條第二項的規定跟民事訴訟法相對應的條文哪是195條是193條第一項"},{"start":19620.376,"end":19637.688,"text":"你法條文字一看不就知道了嗎啊也沒有做清楚完整的理解啊在立法院這邊在那邊穿鑿附會隨便亂講第二個部分啊剛剛副秘書長所指教的請容我再說一下"},{"start":19647.796,"end":19666.255,"text":"民事訴訟前面通則性的規定不管是採取辯論主義還是職權探知主義除非在職權探知的部分有排除要不然通通都有適用民事訴訟不是只有採取辯論主義原則採取辯論主義沒有錯例外的時候還是採取職權探知主義"},{"start":19671.941,"end":19698.602,"text":"剛剛在那邊所講的當事人為真實完全的陳述跟辯論主義以及職權探知主義的區別毫無關係啊那你就從辯論主義的三個命題開始講嘛當事人所沒有主張的事實法院不可以引為判決的基礎當事人所不真實的事實法院必須要引為判決的基礎當事人所沒有聲明的證據法院不可以依照職權來加以調查"},{"start":19700.675,"end":19721.22,"text":"這是古典辯論主義的三命題嘛在職權探知主義的時候這三個命題就變更了當事人沒有主張的事實法院也可以引為判決的基礎當事人所自認的事實法院也不受拘束當事人所沒有聲明的證據法院也可以依照職權加以調查這是辯論主義跟職權探知主義的區別啊"},{"start":19726.493,"end":19746.499,"text":"這個區別跟195條第一項當事人就其所提出的事實因為真實且完全的陳述一點關係也沒有啊第二個最好的印證是什麼就如同您所講的啊在行政訴訟職權主義的色彩重即使職權主義的色彩重民事訴訟法195條第一項一樣準用啊行政訴訟啊職權主義的色彩重啊"},{"start":19755.925,"end":19780.463,"text":"所以就直接准用民事訴訟法195條第一項的規定啊完全的印證我剛剛所提出來的說明那你們現在要說明的是什麼行政訴訟准用民事訴訟法195條第一項稅務事件審理法你們認為有必要做特別的規定那個特別的規定是相對於行政訴訟"},{"start":19782.761,"end":19800.873,"text":"稅務行政事件相對於一般的行政訴訟在行政訴訟所准用的195條第一項的規定在稅務行政事件到底有什麼特殊性要針對行政訴訟所准用的那個條文去做法條上面的區別對待這是我的問題"},{"start":19806.65,"end":19811.641,"text":"你如果真的聽得懂我剛剛所講的問題你就會發現你剛剛的回答根本就不是回答"},{"start":19816.287,"end":19843.458,"text":"好 謝謝黃委員講得非常精闢那麼在這裡呢可能也引發我們在場其他委員我先就本席部分因為你們的12條就我文字上來解讀第一項是寫真實及完全之陳述那行政訴訟法第122條第二項談的是為事實上及法律上之陳述那這個文字內容呢比較接近於民事訴訟法的"},{"start":19844.338,"end":19844.719,"text":"第193條193條民事訴訟法193條"},{"start":19852.785,"end":19880.611,"text":"事實上及法律上之陳述嘛那是然後到195條才是寫真實及完全嘛那麼真的也有點疑惑我們不是法律科班的193條的事實上及法律上之陳述和民事訴訟法第195條因為真實及完全之陳述那這兩個語句呢對應到目前我們稅審法當中你們用的文字是真實及完全之陳述是比較接近於"},{"start":19881.351,"end":19909.579,"text":"民事訴訟法195條但是你們的條文說明說你們又是參考了行政訴訟法第122條第二項那個文字上又接近於我們民事訴訟法的193條那剛剛黃委員指教的就是說這有學理上的差別那老實說這個學理上的差別在實務上的應用上會產生什麼樣的效果的確會是讓在場委員聽了之後至少本席會認為是很想要了解的那請問這個部分機關代表是不是有什麼說明"},{"start":19925.308,"end":19949.8,"text":"其實我想我還是回歸到我剛才講的就是說當然法條的用語文字或有一些的不同但是我們這裡所希望在稅務行政訴訟事件就是科與當事人真實完全的陳述的義務我想這一點應該是毋庸置疑的那至於第一項的後段"},{"start":19950.38,"end":19974.623,"text":"就是對於他照當事人所提出的事實及證據應為陳述這個就是相對陳述或答辯的義務這一部分的規定就是跟民事訴訟法195條的第二項的規定是相同的"},{"start":19975.123,"end":19995.255,"text":"那也許我們參考的法條立法理由所寫的參考的法條那只是就是說我們是參考了這一些的條文的規定然後融合了它的規範的意旨然後行諸於在我們條文的文字"},{"start":19996.944,"end":20021.18,"text":"龍主席這邊先也是建議啦過去在之前的審查當中也的確在立法說明的部分也引起委員的一些質疑那麼後來呢機關代表也有就委員的質疑後你們去修正了你們的立法說明那如果你們立法說明目前強調的行政訴訟法第120條第二項以及民事訴訟法第195條對應到你的12條第一項的"},{"start":20026.203,"end":20054.366,"text":"前半段跟後半段是有不同對應的時候那可能你們在立法說明上是不是完整的充分的表達因為你們很精簡那麼讀起來可能就有一些奇異或混淆好那這個部分提醒你們那請黃委員繼續我想討論到這邊有學過訴訟法的人都聽懂了我到底在說什麼我再強調一次第一個這跟立法理由的說明一點關係都沒有"},{"start":20055.359,"end":20071.28,"text":"這跟立法理由的說明一點關係都沒有會回到我今天早上問你們甚至是上一次會議問你們稅務行政事件審理法你們在炒你這個法典的時候在炒你這個法典的時候你們基本上面"},{"start":20072.927,"end":20098.689,"text":"是本來就用行政訴訟法嘛現在 此時此刻 right now我們在行政法院處理稅務行政事件就是用行政訴訟法嘛完全就是用行政訴訟法那一套現在不是法律真空啊現在稅務行政事件審理法就是用行政訴訟法那既然就是會用行政訴訟法你們另外就審理要搞一個特別法"},{"start":20099.417,"end":20107.66,"text":"那我要看到的就是到底特別在哪裡特別的理由是什麼嘛那否則你何必再抄一次現在就用行政訴訟法啦我有說錯嗎第二個回到12條我先講簡單的後項對於他照所提出的事實及證據因為陳述"},{"start":20123.778,"end":20141.904,"text":"當事人對他照所提出的40級證據因為陳述現在行政訴訟法不就是這樣規定嗎那你重寫一次有什麼意義我不懂啊你重寫一次有什麼意義這根本不是特別規定啊一模一樣的規定你再寫一次啊"},{"start":20143.1,"end":20170.791,"text":"那真的有意義的地方看起來好像要有意義的地方在在第一項的前段啊現行法的規定是當事人就其提出的事實證據因為真實及完全的陳述現在的行政訴訟法 right now用的就是這個條文啊你們要做特別規定把它特別變成什麼樣子變成當事人就與裁判有關的事實因為真實完全的陳述那如果按照你剛剛的說法你完全沒有要"},{"start":20172.148,"end":20180.914,"text":"有什麼特別區別對待的理由啊你只是在形成當初法條的文字的時候忽略了或者是忘記了現在真實完全申訴的義務就規範在行政訴訟法裡面準用民事訴訟法的條文啊"},{"start":20191.309,"end":20213.34,"text":"你這樣子在寫這個特別的審理法那不是置私欲焚嗎沒有必要特別規定的你也把它寫進來寫進來又跟現在的法條文字不一樣那你除了造成了未來解釋上面的混亂到底還有什麼積極的功能這個是我針對12條第一項的問題我到目前為止沒有聽到答案"},{"start":20216.296,"end":20231.932,"text":"機關代表請說明其實12條第一項就是把目前目前相關行政訴訟法有關的規定關於當成協力義務的規定把它規範進來然後用於做更"},{"start":20232.572,"end":20260.878,"text":"精進的一個用於因為我們的想法是說就像11條雖然它跟行政訴訟法125條規範一樣但是我們是認為說從整個體力或者是法條的完整性來講我們能夠把現行行政訴訟法已經附科與當事人的協力義務在這邊做一個統合性的規定並且把它就真實完全陳述是"},{"start":20261.878,"end":20276.604,"text":"就與裁判有關的事實那我想我們是做一個更進步性的一個立法就是就既有的規範之下然後為了體力的完整性然後在文字上也著作一些的匡正這樣子好請黃委員"},{"start":20283.562,"end":20306.581,"text":"我必須要老實講啦剛剛你說什麼更親近更進步親近在哪裡進步在哪裡可能我比較奴頓一點我從訴訟法學的角度來看我完全看不出來親近在哪裡進步在哪裡我完全聽不出來那當然我這樣子的評論公平或不公平還是一樣要接受公眾監督嘛"},{"start":20315.751,"end":20335.143,"text":"來第一個我反對第一項去調整憲刑法的規定除了造成未來解釋論上面的混淆之外我完全看不出到底有何精進或進步之處第二點第二點就是"},{"start":20338.294,"end":20353.019,"text":"因為第二項的部分跟行政訴訟法裡面令第三人提出文書的第三人文書提出義務兩者之間的差別在哪裡這個第二項跟第三項的部分一模一樣"},{"start":20354.25,"end":20378.564,"text":"因為這個有命第三人提出文書義務的問題嘛你抽象的來講就是要給第三人文書提出的義務嘛那可以第三人文書提出的義務你們目前12條第二項跟第三項跟目前行政訴訟法裡面命第三人提出文書的義務這是補充還是特別是補充規定還是特別規定"},{"start":20380.236,"end":20397.49,"text":"那用了這個是要排除行政訴訟法第三人文書提出義務的適用然後要給他做一個給他做一個特別的規定要取代第三人文書提出義務的一般性規定是這樣嗎"},{"start":20400.822,"end":20424.419,"text":"我們這一條規定尤其是第三項的規定是針對第三人提出資料的義務那其實是考慮到稅捐訴訟的特性因為很多是要有海外的資料它如果涉及在中華民國境內的盈利事業它是要科全球所得的資料"},{"start":20424.839,"end":20441.213,"text":"那有一些境外的資料其實是不易取得的尤其是所以在這裡才特別講說如果這一些資料是納稅議員所持有或者是受他委託保管的第三人"},{"start":20442.113,"end":20469.088,"text":"持有這些資料那我們是命他提希望他命他提出於境外境外而且是與科稅事實有關的必要資料因此是針對就境外的資料而且這裡也做一個要件的線說必須是與科稅事實有關的必要資料黃委員詢問那我也想追問來請黃委員請"},{"start":20471.946,"end":20492.732,"text":"對不起啊 你把法條的文字再念一次 還是沒有回答我的問題啊那看一下行政訴訟法好不好行政訴訟法除了當事人的文書提出義務 也有第三人的文書提出義務啊第三人的文書提出義務 他有限定文書所在地嗎他有提出義務 他就是有提出義務啊"},{"start":20493.502,"end":20520.021,"text":"我管你那個你的文書藏在什麼地方法院命你提出你就要提出啊你不提出了以後接下來法律效果就會繼續的延續下去啊所以我的問題還是一樣啊你們針對第12條第二項第三項的文書提出義務相對於目前行政訴訟法裡面的文書提出義務到底是一個什麼關係啊是特別規定"},{"start":20521.67,"end":20549.448,"text":"要排除行政訴訟法有關文書提出義務的一般性規定還是怎麼樣因為你剛所講的狀況我看起來似乎好像已經落在了本來行政訴訟法的文書提出義務的設成範圍之內還是我的理解有錯誤我們目前行政法院對於行政訴訟法第三人文書提出義務有限縮在那個文書限在本國境內嗎"},{"start":20552.062,"end":20567.023,"text":"我從法條上面看不出這樣的限制還是最高行政法院有什麼裁判力可以提供我們大家做參考好請機關代表先就黃委員的追問回應那待會本席也會想要請教一些問題請"},{"start":20568.912,"end":20598.392,"text":"是這一條是針對就第三人而且是境外的資料所以就如果是在這種情形之下他會優先於行政訴訟法相關規範的適用因為在這裡我們特別點出說第三可以命第三人提出境外與科稅事實有關的資料而且還有做一些附帶性的規定就是說如果這個資料提供已經提供給境外政府的話可以命他提出副本而且"},{"start":20599.533,"end":20613.363,"text":"命第三人又把它限縮也就是但書規範的情形就是以無法自納稅一文取得者為限所以做了一些有別於行政書送法關於命第三人提出文書的規定"},{"start":20617.539,"end":20640.329,"text":"本席這邊也要請教一下因為畢竟不是科班出身的剛剛就幾位在言辭當中所用的法條不太理解那麼因為剛剛在討論到第三人義務我們這邊看到的行政訴訟法當中你們條文所援引的是第164條可是剛剛提到的第三人義務的部分我看到這裡面從"},{"start":20642.391,"end":20659.442,"text":"行政訴訟法166一直到後面的好幾條到168、169、170、171都有類似這樣的規定那我這裡有兩個疑惑就是因為它這裡面有往前提出到"},{"start":20662.745,"end":20692.181,"text":"行政訴訟碼144條到147條那這些條文內容呢這邊講的很多是公務員那因為這裡有一個疑惑啦因為呢剛剛說到第三人之義務有的是規範非公務員的那有的你們引述的是164條是公務員的那能不能稍微回應一下到底這兩者的區別作為當事人協力之義務以外的第三人他如果有區分成是公務員跟非公務員那有什麼差別 沒有"},{"start":20692.801,"end":20715.568,"text":"這一點本席也很好奇報告主席因為您剛才講說我們立法理由有引到164條那引到164條我們這一段的說明只是要說明說如果是機關是當事人的時候他就所保管的這一些的文書資料"},{"start":20716.408,"end":20736.033,"text":"它本來就有提出的義務我們是在強調這裡就是說不光是納稅義務人而且根據164條第一項的前段規定就是公務員或者是機關掌管的文書行政法院是可以調取的"},{"start":20736.593,"end":20754.586,"text":"那也就是說我們在這裡所規範當事人要提出的資料其實就是他原來依照法律規定本來就應該提出給機關的或稅捐機關的資料如果他踐行的話其實我們按照164條的規定就不用他進這樣一個協力義務"},{"start":20758.109,"end":20787.549,"text":"我們可以直接去跟機關調取這些資料那今天就是因為他沒有遵照相關法律的規定先行提出這些資料給機關所以我們調不到那所以才會在這裡希望他能夠提出他依法原來應該要提供給稅捐機關或者是其他主管機關的資料我們這一點的說明是在闡述這一個的部分"},{"start":20788.609,"end":20801.077,"text":"那另外就是我們目前第三人提出文書的相關的規範就是規範在行政訴訟法166到168條"},{"start":20806.741,"end":20829.329,"text":"都有相關的規範那169條就是第三人如果不提出的話那是可以做罰款必要時得為強制處分這是既有的行政訴訟法的規定那麼關於那個你們立法說明說的行政訴訟法164條部分剛剛的回應大概我理解了那繼續追問"},{"start":20831.286,"end":20844.828,"text":"因為剛好之前在去年有一個實例原理上有點類似那麼對照雖然不是機關它是一個工協會是個工會但是這個工會它握有"},{"start":20846.155,"end":20861.651,"text":"他們當事人的這個相關的契約文書那當我們行政執行處依法院的立場去跟他調用的時候那麼讓對方似乎有不得不提出的義務好了我講白一點就是保單"},{"start":20863.51,"end":20879.191,"text":"在之前我們處理保單抵稅的時候有發生過債權人要去申請強制執行那要去申請執行的時候呢執行處就會要求理解那個債務人本身有參與哪些保險"},{"start":20881.68,"end":20908.589,"text":"債務人所擁有的保單他的資料呢通常都會在保險工會上有留存那保險工會留存的這個資料那麼是屬於當事人或者說契約保險人跟被保險人之間他們的一個邀保人之間的契約文書可是因為工會有但是當我們法院要求他們提供的時候應債權人要確保債權而提供的時候"},{"start":20909.269,"end":20933.984,"text":"那這個時候是不是就是你們這裡面條文所說的它不是機關喔它不是你們164條的這個機關喔它是一個民間的團體的工協會喔那這個時候呢它是不是有類似你們這裡面166條開始所說的你們要辦理執行強制執行那你們要求它執行處呢要求它提供那它是否有義務提供這個"},{"start":20936.198,"end":20956.45,"text":"是否為這樣的義務因為這個涉及到說我們在理解納稅義務人因為他或許有些資料沒有交給稅宣計政機關那他可能保存在其他的商業公司裡面那當你們命期要他提供的時候第三人的義務是不是類似像我所理解的保險公會接到法院這邊要求他們提供"},{"start":20957.21,"end":20981.91,"text":"那他們要提供那這個提供是完全義務的提供還是什麼樣的情況因為在該案當中呢公會在意的是他們是可供查詢但是查詢要付費那請問在這種情況之下你們命期他要提供他有義務提供但是他如果要收費呢那又如何去處理這個剛好在實際案例上呢之前有處理到所以也很好奇想進一步追問跟"},{"start":20988.578,"end":21014.253,"text":"我先提一個程序上的事項因為那個國發基金調查委員會我是召委我排的議程是兩點半要開始我是提議啦從早上討論到現在可以看得出來我們司法院的官員對於這部法律的準備嫌有不足我是建議另外擇期再審請他們回去好好準備好再來這個是我的建議因為"},{"start":21016.354,"end":21040.486,"text":"那個世化法治委員會 鍾嘉賓 趙偉寧也是委員之一所以我是建議我們今天這個法案是不是就先審到這個地方擇期再繼續 這個是我的建議謝謝委員的提議那因為有兩位委員我剛剛看到較遠的是沈委員 較近的是林委員那好吧 我剛剛的問題先放著先讓沈委員講完 再讓林委員講"},{"start":21043.186,"end":21064.135,"text":"我想我大致上大概同意黃委員剛剛所做的提議我們則期再審但是我主要是要提醒我們司法院的部分其實你看今天從一整天我們坐在這裡大家一直看大概其實我們今天整個討論的焦點大概就是說我們這一部稅審法"},{"start":21069.002,"end":21082.348,"text":"如果沒有遂審法的話就適用行政訴訟法這次黃委員一直在主要講這個所以他每一個條文他都希望你們提出說你們在這裡列這個他的特別"},{"start":21083.408,"end":21102.089,"text":"規定的意義在哪裡那事實上有一些是有但是你們寫的可能你們寫的方向像你剛剛所提的那個境外的那些問題你可能有這個意義但是在條文上面大家無法理解說你如果沒有這一條為什麼行政事務法不能夠適用他為什麼"},{"start":21103.09,"end":21114.198,"text":"如果沒有速審法這個規定的話為什麼不能直接援引行政速審法我想未來我們在續審的時候大概焦點後面這幾條焦點一直都每一條每一項焦點都會是這個你這一條"},{"start":21117.284,"end":21141.629,"text":"你定義在這個稅審法裡面定義這一條它的特別規定它的用意它要取代這個行政輸送法它的不足的哪一些部分我想這個是下一次我們續審的時候我覺得這個才是你們應該要回答委員會的最重要的問題那這個部分我提醒司法院希望說我們下次如果續審的時候你們在這個部分的資料"},{"start":21145.79,"end":21163.637,"text":"也許當初你們在做這個法案,畢竟新的法案也許當初沒有那麼嚴謹,有一些條件也許真的是可以不用,那你們在那些部分也不用堅持,我們大家覺得可以不用另行規定了,我們就不要另行規定,這部分我們是不是希望司法院回去檢討一下"},{"start":21165.979,"end":21188.039,"text":"謝謝 林委員也是類似嗎 請我想今天在討論的整個過程中也感受到其實司法院對於稅務行政 到底公民一般行政訴訟它的特別在哪裡好像不是很熟悉因為剛才從第二條的第一項整個詢答的過程中我們就發覺整個條文"},{"start":21190.161,"end":21211.354,"text":"到底為什麼要就裁判有關的事實因為真實完全的陳述班主席的詢問我想司法院都沒有辦法做很明確的回答其實如果說你看民事訴訟法裡面規定所謂當事人的陳述再延遲辯論他的陳述就訴訟關係它應該為事實及法律上的陳述"},{"start":21212.074,"end":21235.245,"text":"但是就他主張的事實他有真實的一個陳述的義務那在稅務行政你把它改成說當事人就與裁判有關的事實又改成說與裁判有關的事實但是你裁判有關的事實跟我們民事訴訟法裡面所謂的跟訴訟關係有關的事實有什麼不一樣其實就一樣啊"},{"start":21235.965,"end":21263.258,"text":"那在民事事務法的規定它是只有事實上及法律上的陳述的義務但是你在稅務行政你又改成說它是有真實陳述的義務你好像要准用那個就是引用行政事務法應該講的122條第二項的一個規定喔所以這聽起來就很混淆啦所以是不是說我們這部法案我們希望說就是請司法院再準備充分一點啦我們繼續再來討論啦"},{"start":21265.852,"end":21291.014,"text":"好 謝謝 幾位委員的意見其實主席在推進議程的過程當中也都是希望讓審查的過程列席機關能夠有充足的準備做完整的說明那不過呢 當我們在進行討論的時候呢還是會有插出一些火花引發一些有益的討論那這樣討論也有助於列席機關就提案機關回去再做充實跟補充那我想呢 因為其實呢 我們委員會"},{"start":21292.475,"end":21315.073,"text":"大家認真討論議案那委員各自有其他不同的重要任務這裡主席也都尊重所以我原則上會盡量尊重有重大不同意見的委員的意見我們不會在那個時候做這些處理的所以委員請放心也跟委員報告像一再聲明的在上次第一次審查的時候有委員表示這個11到16"},{"start":21317.434,"end":21340.279,"text":"25無 這個是非常堅持所以我們上次審查完全就沒有處理那今天因為有時間有在場我們就往前推進那剛剛對12條的部分也有委員提出一些重大的寶貴意見那事不上 剛剛幾個程序上的提醒也提醒完了可否呢 我們還是就12條有提出的部分讓列席官進入說明"},{"start":21340.859,"end":21359.902,"text":"那如果在場委員有其他的重大會議也沒問題我們會呢尊重委員之前在離開之前所表達的意見我們在處理的時候一定會考量到這個應該本席在主席的時候啊都有充分的說明了好不好那我們是不是就讓機關可以進行剛前面的詢問的回答那黃委員請"},{"start":21362.019,"end":21377.68,"text":"剛剛我就提議嘛今天這個法案就到這邊請他們回去做比較聰慧的準備再來啊 審發委員也都同意啦我這樣子主張 審發委員也同意林思敏委員也同意那只剩下主席一個人你要自己往前推進 這樣好嗎"},{"start":21380.467,"end":21398.033,"text":"請方委員注意剛剛我這邊是有一個意見要請他們回答他們還沒回答那因為委員有不同意見我讓大家先就程序上表示意見嘛那終究是已經提出了問題讓列席機關回答並不妥而且也不會因為有人離開我們委員會做不同的冒進不會"},{"start":21399.193,"end":21425.046,"text":"那也不是說現在全體都要離開到其他的委員去開會事實上主席在這裡待會也有其他的重要會議就陳如剛黃委員所說的但是呢已經提出來問題也讓行政機關在現有的時間繼續進行答覆再一次的跟委員保證我們今天呢在調色的處理上只要委員有表達我們應該還沒有形成共識一定不會處理的您放心好不好"},{"start":21425.566,"end":21430.469,"text":"那因為剛剛這邊追問的部分還沒回答剛剛我提出了保單結構部分 請回答那個保單的部分 那個保險公會的部分 社會保險公會的部分會員 我要請他們先說明 因為這是剛剛有問到的報告主席 我們的12條第三項所規範的這個第三人是受納稅義務人委託保管的第三人"},{"start":21456.01,"end":21474.752,"text":"所以他持有管領這一些的資料跟納稅藝人之間是有一個受託保管的法律關係在的至於委員剛才講保險工會持有的一些資料因為我不曉得保險工會持有這些依據的"},{"start":21475.613,"end":21500.65,"text":"是不是符合我們這一邊就是說必須是納稅義務人跟第三人之間有一個受託保管的這樣一個基礎的法律關係存在抱歉因為剛剛我講的不是說我們稅審法的稅務行政事件而是說你們這邊援引的行政訴訟法當中第三人的義務那在目前沒有稅審法之前那之前我們在金錢債務關係上那麼"},{"start":21503.252,"end":21519.281,"text":"作為債權人可否對於債務人他所進簽訂的保單的契約內容要求其他第三方提出相關的內容供我們法院進行執行主要是這一個因為這個是行政訴訟法現在就有的規定那剛剛"},{"start":21520.362,"end":21546.782,"text":"本席的詢問也很清楚如果他有義務 那這個義務的執行過程中如果有付費的需求那是否他盡他義務的同時相對照也應該付繳費的義務這個是很明確的說明的我想呢 今天因為副秘書長之前並可能沒有受理到 事實上台北地院啦我講的就是台北地院但是後來呢 台北地院的處理方式"},{"start":21548.472,"end":21576.69,"text":"並沒有這一部分做明確的處理所以是不是可以請副秘書長這邊您做個簡要的說明那我們再把事情的這邊議程這邊可以做一個告一段落 請主席所垂詢的那個部分不在那個稅審法這個條文裡面因為你們這裡原以行政訴訟法嘛那你們行政訴訟法有這個第三方的義務嘛我才說第三方義務當中如果涉及到付費的部分那你們怎麼處理"},{"start":21579.676,"end":21606.217,"text":"那個部分那個民事執行的這一個部分民事執行的這個部分這個部分我想我還是得回去問一下那個民事廳跟那個台北地院他們實際上的那個處理的方式啊是對所以說您的意思是說今天我們談到稅審法第12條談到了這個協力一五五當時的協力一五五又提到了第三人的"},{"start":21607.267,"end":21635.726,"text":"提供文件的義務那這邊的正點是在現在的行政訴訟法當中如果第三人有提供文件的義務在提供文件的同時如果他們本身有收費的規定那這個收費如何處理這個是很清楚的詢問是就現在的行政訴訟法那同樣的為什麼要就這點處理因為如果未來到稅審法第12條如果第三方提供文書有他的義務那他提供文書有他的成本"},{"start":21636.806,"end":21660.877,"text":"那這個成本這個要誰來執行這個部分是不是請陳警長你了解意思因為接下來有委員是希望說後面的續省我們提案機關能夠更完整的說明那這個部分能不能先做初步的因為委員也要趕快要去主持其他會議了有委員要主持我希望今天的議程能夠順利的告一段落"},{"start":21669.076,"end":21690.416,"text":"委員垂詢的是關於第三人提出文書所產生的費用那按依照行政訴訟法第170條的規定它是說第三人得請求 如果符合啦就是說第三人得請求提出文書之費用第155條的規定"},{"start":21692.998,"end":21715.596,"text":"於前項情形準用155條的規定就是有一些相關法院要發給這個日費旅費或者是證人詢問的一些的這個相關的費用那目前我們的在行政訴訟法的這個領域是規範在170條的"},{"start":21719.261,"end":21739.209,"text":"好 那所以呢 就這個部分 既然廳長也做事 那副秘長了解齁那這個部分呢 如果是你們是這樣處理 那後續如果在稅審法還沒徵定完成之前 行政訴訟有情況 委員希望司法院相關機關應該按照這個精神來處理 好不好同意嗎再回去研究好嗎好 副委員來你們齁 好 來 黃委員請"},{"start":21749.575,"end":21771.292,"text":"具體的講,請你們回去準備的時候,下面的事情請一定準備我剛剛講得很清楚,11、12、13、14、15、16我都有意見,我要求表,我要求保留你們再回去處理的時候,第18條的部分注意就有關於當事人訴訟促進的義務當事人訴訟促進的義務現在行政訴訟法是準用民事訴訟法的規定"},{"start":21776.236,"end":21795.995,"text":"那在準用的情況之下你們這邊還做特別規定的理由在什麼地方那第二個部分在性質方面上面法院因應職權調查的事項法院因應職權調查的事項為什麼在這裡還有事實提出主意的適用你甚至在違反事實提出主意的時候會產生失權效的效果"},{"start":21797.096,"end":21812.129,"text":"這個部分請你們一併回去做準備最後我還要再跟你們提醒一件事情就是你們在整個法典裡面有的時候用程序標的有的時候用訴訟標的"},{"start":21813.61,"end":21839.904,"text":"那是有區別的理由如果區別的話區別理由到底在什麼地方在有一些脈絡的時候用程序標的在其他的脈絡的時候是用訴訟標的區別的理由到底在哪裡我老實說我看了不是非常的懂最後善意的提醒司法院善意的提醒司法院你們如果要我們支持你們過這個特別法那請你們回去重新思考"},{"start":21841.267,"end":21869.512,"text":"這個特別法到底給目前的稅務行政訴訟在實務上面產生的問題對於人民所造成的困擾到底解決了什麼事情我到目前為止看到的沒有解決什麼事情感覺好像是為利而利甚至在一些特別規定上面是對人民造成更大的不利益"},{"start":21870.68,"end":21887.666,"text":"在這樣的情況之下,我是沒有辦法支持你們這部法律繼續推進好,以上好,請問在場委員,有沒有還有其他意見另外沒有,沒有好,那跟委員說明,因為剛剛"},{"start":21890.061,"end":21909.828,"text":"稅審法審理到今已經是第二次進行逐條討論了那麼委員如果對於條文的內容之前暫保留的部分那希望提案機關能夠更為周延的就委員所提出的部分做好準備好 那目前我們目前推進到部分是到第"},{"start":21911.869,"end":21937.179,"text":"第十條上次暫保留那十一條的部分也是十一條是保留十一條是保留那十二條部分呢目前並沒有進行處理那所以呢在徵得我們剛剛委員的這樣的一個意見表達呢主席在那邊做這樣的宣告本次會議進行到此議程未及處理部分均另定期繼續審查現在散會 謝謝大家"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}