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3"},{"start":2461.291,"end":2471.596,"text":"不好意思請報告出席人數現在出席人數五人已達法定人數現在開會首先進行報告事項請宣讀上次會議議事錄"},{"start":2476.229,"end":2500.783,"text":"立法院國家發展基金不當投資暨管理師職調查委員會第二次全體委員會議議事錄時間113年12月18日星期三下午21分至3559分地點紅302會議室出席委員林思明委員等12人請假委員陳超明缺席委員吳思堯委員主席黃昭吉委員國昌報告事項宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定"},{"start":2503.204,"end":2521.679,"text":"针对本会第一次全体委员会议议事录因本会出席委员名单召集委员选举委名册及选举事项之结果和过程和结果均拥有一亿故就此部分之议事录记载与该次会议内容实际发生之事实不符应以更正或移除"},{"start":2522.58,"end":2523.661,"text":"請問各位委員上次會議議事錄有無錯誤"},{"start":2554.909,"end":2577.885,"text":"好那如果都沒有錯誤的話議事錄確定現在繼續進行討論事項請宣讀討論本會調閱文件與資料保管及查閱注意事項與其他相關事宜宣讀完畢好那我現在進行了處理那現在我們有收到由林思明委員葉元之委員等"},{"start":2580.535,"end":2591.445,"text":"七位委員共同提案你調閱的文件與資料那請問對於七位委員提案調閱文件與資料等事宜有無意見"},{"start":2594.789,"end":2619.165,"text":"來請沈伯陽委員沒有我是想說是不是要先說明先請林思敏委員說明主席我想我們第一次今天召開這個會議我們開始來進行整個對於國發基金不當投資以及管理失當的相關的這個職權的行使那我們今天開的會我想"},{"start":2619.605,"end":2646.946,"text":"我們首先就是要去調閱相關的文件與資料以利於我們未來的持續來進行整個基金投資由不當或者相關的人員有沒有管理失職的這樣的一個問題存在所以我們你請調閱行政院國家發展基金針對民國100就從民國105年起所投資的直接投資組合中重要新興事業"},{"start":2648.067,"end":2675.829,"text":"歷年持股的比例變化歷年投資金額歷年供股代表名單歷年投資績效以及他的虧損情形的相關的一個文件第二個我們這個擬調閱行政院國家發展基金對民國105年所投資的直接投資組合中重要新興事業的評選所召開的相關會議這包含了"},{"start":2676.73,"end":2692.996,"text":"那也包含但不限於行政院國家發展基金管理會創業投資審議會國發政策評估會以及投資評估審議委員會的會議記錄會議資料以及簽到部"},{"start":2695.418,"end":2709.553,"text":"民國105年起行政院國家發展基金依據行政院國家發展基金直接投資事業退場機制作業要點所造開的事故政策評估會議資料及簽到表"},{"start":2712.856,"end":2727.739,"text":"第四個我們擬請調閱國家發展委員會行政院國家發展基金管理會與民國105年起所投資的直接投資組合中重要新興事業所有"},{"start":2728.16,"end":2756.121,"text":"往來的韓文我想這些文件呢都跟我們要調查國發基金有沒有不當投資以及管理失職有相關連的一個議題所以我們認為這個有調閱的必要性那請各位委員支持好謝謝林世民委員那針對林世民委員提案的內容以及所做的說明那請問在場的委員有無意見來請沈伯陽委員"},{"start":2757.969,"end":2780.126,"text":"這個我先講一下比較程序上的問題就是說當然這個1234最主要一開始是跟歷年投資然後再來是他的這個入場跟出場最後是往來韓文那因為這一個範圍非常的大這個就牽涉到一開始我們在訂這個調查委員會的時候其實他的範圍就沒有特定然後變成說我們現在是到今天為止然後才看起來有特定但其實他範圍還是很大"},{"start":2781.307,"end":2800.389,"text":"這一看這個光是如果只是直接組合的重要新興事業應該有七八十家吧所以就是說如果我們用這樣的一個範圍大家當然有過大但我覺得我這個是等一下再要討論我現在想問的程序是說因為今天到底哪一些是他有辦法提供的哪一些提供了然後哪一些可能是有上市上櫃的這個是不是應該請"},{"start":2801.79,"end":2813.664,"text":"國發基金應該要來現場你說他如果現場來跟我們對這件事情我們在討論的過程當中就可以知道說我們這個範圍應該要怎麼限定嗎所以我想先問一下就是在程序上面我們是不是應該有國發基金的人來說明"},{"start":2816.905,"end":2830.976,"text":"主席先回覆一下沈伯陽委員我們目前這個國發基金調查委員會我們是按照通過的運作要點來加以運作的那當然在立法院執行刑事法"},{"start":2832.15,"end":2856.575,"text":"相關的規定當中他們有不提出的法定事由那國發基金或者是國發基金管理委員會他們在含附本調查委員會的時候他們本來就可以加以續名那過去既往在其他的調閱委員會有發生相同的狀況的時候也是做這樣子一併的處理所以程序上不會有什麼問題只是第一點先做說明"},{"start":2857.788,"end":2874.81,"text":"第二點剛剛那個沈伯陽委員有關心說這樣的調閱範圍是不是會過於廣泛等等的問題那在這邊跟委員會所有的委員做了一個先做一個簡單事實上面的說明因為"},{"start":2875.911,"end":2905.245,"text":"依照我們目前國發基金管理委員會從105年起直接投資組合的重要新興事業因為在今天提案的內容當中他已經明確的限定時間的範圍以及課題的範圍那目前為止按照統計從105年起所直接投資的新興事業總共34家以上說明請問其他委員有沒有意見"},{"start":2909.924,"end":2936.954,"text":"請沈伯陽委員這個是根據要點來做這個我沒有意見我剛剛的意見是比較簡單的我的意見是說效率上因為現在的範圍劃定是這個樣子因為他又有牽扯到一些上市上櫃所以我只是說在效率上面如果我們要等他函還不如說請他自己來說明速度會比較快我這時候要再講這一點謝謝沈伯陽委員的寶貴意見剛剛主席已經有說明過了我們按照這個運作要點發函去跟他們索取這些資料"},{"start":2937.725,"end":2958.954,"text":"那哪些資料是他們沒有的或是依法他們有法定的事由可以拒絕提供的包括了國發基金管理委員會包括了我們的國發會他們在函附的時候都可以具體的表明那我以一個例子來跟各位委員做參考當初在交通委員會"},{"start":2960.234,"end":2976.757,"text":"在針對淨電式的弊案成立調閱小組的時候那個時候交通委員會他也是去了一個函給NCC那要求他提供資料那NCC最後回覆了資料有些有提供有些沒有提供"},{"start":2977.398,"end":3004.768,"text":"那真的以實際上面的狀況來講是為了要節省大家的時間我們先按照這樣子一個1234客觀範圍非常明確的內容那調查委員會先去函請相關的主管機關提供等他們回覆來了以後有哪些提供有哪些沒有提供那沒有提供是不是有法定的適由還是有客觀上面的困難到那個時候"},{"start":3006.26,"end":3027.562,"text":"到那個時候我們再請行政機關的代表來練習國發基金調查委員會來說明跟全體的委員做說明哪些資料他們已經提出來那哪些資料他們基於什麼樣的理由沒有提出來這樣子的進行或許會更有效率一點那因為今天已經有委員正式的提案"},{"start":3028.223,"end":3048.993,"text":"那主席站在主席的立場還是要尊重提案委員的權益那以上針對剛剛委員所垂詢的事項做以上的說明那請問針對零四名委員等七名委員提案要調閱的文件跟資料的範圍請問在場的委員還有沒有其他的意見來請鍾嘉斌委員"},{"start":3051.178,"end":3059.074,"text":"主席 那麼我們剛剛看到了提案委員所擬的擬調閱文件與資料那麼這裡面的四點"},{"start":3060.345,"end":3080.684,"text":"那因為可不可以請提案委員說明一下那當這些是林思明委員啦OK好那就是請教提案委員包括林委員在內的提案委員那這裡面的四點當中我看第一點啦這個部分呢應該國發會本身它所謂的105年起歷年持股比例變化我想這個國發應該有"},{"start":3082.405,"end":3101.514,"text":"歷年投資金額應該也有歷年公股代表名單應該不難查到然後歷年的投資績效及虧損情形這個他們要應該要時間去算應該要有那接下來呢您提到的這個第二點第三點第四點我先從後面來第四點這裡105年起這裡的所有往來韓文的這個部分"},{"start":3107.864,"end":3126.28,"text":"因為我是不太了解這個韓文的範圍的內容根據檔案法這105年以後的都應該都有留存所以這些韓文應該有保留這應該不成問題那至於說這些直接投資組合中的重要新興事業"},{"start":3127.501,"end":3141.349,"text":"那這裡面呢所謂的重要新興事業如果我們有更明確的名單那這樣要調的時候呢就會更明確啦我是跟提案委員做這樣的一個建議啦你這裡的直接投資組合嘛這是一個投資當中的一個類型"},{"start":3143.61,"end":3170.08,"text":"那所謂的重要新興事業這個重要新興事業恐怕這個在定義上就會有一些討論那這是就第四點的部分那第三點的部分您這裡所說的召開事故政策評估會議會議資料及簽到表這個可能也要了解它的範圍內容然後再往前第二點第二點的內容當中寫括號"},{"start":3171.34,"end":3179.967,"text":"包含但不限於這個目前我們最近常常看到包括但不限於這裡面包括創業投資審議會還有這個國發政策評估會以及投資評估審議委員會的會議紀錄會議資料及簽到表我這裡只是有一個疑惑"},{"start":3189.614,"end":3215.197,"text":"因為過去我們作為民意機關民意代表有些民眾他們陳情我們略略會涉獵到這些內容他們所陳情的內容可能跟這些有關那這裡面有時候不只是陳情者有時候我們去查詢會對應到說相對者譬如說其他的這些公司他目前他這些公司的內容是否公司有"},{"start":3216.218,"end":3229.957,"text":"有同意國發會他可以提供這個我不是很清楚所以我是覺得這個提案委員是不是可以就這些內容上可以有更具體的描述那我們再來評估"},{"start":3232.546,"end":3257.623,"text":"謝謝鍾嘉賓委員在請提案委員為進一步的說明前主席針對剛剛我已經說明過的事項我理解因為鍾委員很辛苦剛剛在司法法制委員會召委主持重要法案的審查會議可能在途上所以我再跟各位委員再做一次清楚的報告這一次由林志明委員所提出來的這個調閱的文件資料"},{"start":3259.584,"end":3275.716,"text":"那那個第一點的部分剛剛鍾委員的說明應該也蠻清楚的這些都是國發會他本來現在應該就要有的東西了那至於二三四點剛剛鍾委員所垂詢的直接投資組合中重要新興事業那我跟各位委員報告這個"},{"start":3278.118,"end":3291.934,"text":"因為我收到了這個提案的時候那我自己來開會以前我也做了一個基本的功課我發現提案委員所講的直接投資組合中的重要信心事業這個用詞完全是依照國發會"},{"start":3293.636,"end":3316.193,"text":"完全是依照國發會他們的描述國發會對於什麼是直接投資組合的重要新興事業他們自己已經有一個清楚的定義也正是有一個清楚的定義所以目前國發會跟國家跟國發基金所謂直接投資組合的重要新興事業總共"},{"start":3317.054,"end":3345.019,"text":"有70家總共有70家那但是我們如果按照提案委員他們提案說明當中的限於民國105年也就是2016年才發生的現在的目前總共就是34家總共就是34家那這34家的名單這34家的名單在目前國發基金的年報當中都有清楚的列出來那現在總委員可能怕說這樣子如果還不夠具體的話"},{"start":3345.979,"end":3368.673,"text":"那是不是我們等一下就請議事人員就有關於國發基金他們在年報上面所清楚揭露的符合由國發會他們自己所定義的直接投資組合中的重要新興事業而且是在105年以後的列表可以把它清楚的列的出來看要另外做成副表"},{"start":3369.473,"end":3395.961,"text":"還是用念的方式做成會議記錄這個我都尊重我都尊重提案委員的意見但我就是說以主席目前的立場我看了這個提案的內容那我來開會以前我自己先做了功課做完功課了以後要特定所謂的直接投資組合中的重要新興事業在105年以後總共這34家那事實上在客觀上面是沒有什麼特定的困難"},{"start":3396.781,"end":3412.287,"text":"那不好意思因為主席前面已經有宣告過的事項再予以說明一次讓全體的委員都可以理解那針對剛剛中委員所表示的意見那看李世民委員接下來有沒有要什麼補充 請好 謝謝主席"},{"start":3414.147,"end":3436.353,"text":"好 可以啦 我們一起把他講完就是說因為剛剛有提到嘛譬如說你這個歷年投資基金他不是可能要計算嗎什麼等等之類的啊他一定要時間嘛所以我還是要回過頭去就是當然因為我們沒有給一個具體的時間但我還是想要講就是說如果剛剛中文有問一些問題如果國發基金來的話他現場就可以回答我覺得這樣比較有效率啦但是我只是追問這個還有期間的事情好 謝謝"},{"start":3439.749,"end":3454.577,"text":"先針對中委員的一個詢詢,我想也謝謝主席,我這個提案主席有很詳細的一個做那個功課,就是直接投資組合中的重要新興事業,我想剛才主席回答得非常清楚,其實這個都是國發會的定義,"},{"start":3456.718,"end":3472.493,"text":"所以這不會說因為我們這個韓文區他不曉得要調哪幾家所以他可以很具體的就我們這個所謂的重要新興事業這幾家他可以做很直接具體的來提供我們要的一個資料至於說這個"},{"start":3473.694,"end":3489.519,"text":"10成的部分我們什麼樣委員所擔心的10成的部分其實我想我們在這個你調研文件與資料裡面我們是並沒有很這個給他要求他說他要多久來提供所以其實我們也給他一個非常寬裕的一個時間那我對那"},{"start":3491.039,"end":3515.155,"text":"是 當然我們也希望說國發會所有的相關的單位能夠盡速的提供我們立法院我們要求我們調查委員會要求的相關的一個資料所以我們認為說整個這個文其實國發會的人員要不要來我想剛才主席也回答非常清楚就是等到他們把我們這個文他收到"},{"start":3515.475,"end":3541.887,"text":"他回文之後如果我們認為有不清楚或不明白的地方那我們依照我們相關的要點有沒有再請他提出補充資料那我想我們到時候再來做具體的一個建議跟要求我想這樣也是很有效率的不是一定要讓官員坐在這邊來救我們所要求的資料請他再做回答書面已經表示得很清楚就可能不用請他來"},{"start":3543.048,"end":3545.273,"text":"這樣也是很有效率的OK 好 謝謝"},{"start":3555.359,"end":3572.349,"text":"還有在場的委員我今天看到這個市民委員去你調閱文件資料列了一二三四我相信在場也很多位都是很資深的我們在食物界大家都很有經驗"},{"start":3573.71,"end":3602.489,"text":"申請調查證據裡面我們第一個要看的就是我們要帶證事實是什麼然後最主要你至少你也要先去釋明就是說你想做些什麼那我們從整個國家基金來看的話不管是整個重要新興事業的投資或者專案的一個投資我到從這四點裡面我還沒有去看到說你這四點裡面你稍微有比較"},{"start":3603.57,"end":3624.484,"text":"具體的來去簡單的去敘述你發現哪一些地方我去調查這些資料那我要來證明些什麼這個我沒看到那就是說你從105年開始就是2016嘛這個當然是非常政治性的啦就從2016年你就把它劃設成民主金服黨執政開始"},{"start":3625.905,"end":3636.757,"text":"那就當然立法院要劃定一個時間哪一個政黨開始執政去做一個查起這個我沒有意見但問題就是說你總要有一個原因"},{"start":3638.09,"end":3643.933,"text":"總不會說啪啦啪啦你認為說全部都不當你至少要稍微來釋明說哪一個部分不當那你要調閱的到底是哪一部分那現在不是現在變成說你全部這個只要是民進黨執政的任何國發基金的一個投資不管是哪一家你賺錢虧錢或者是任何一個事股那這些政策這評估的過程全部都是幣"},{"start":3659.682,"end":3672.392,"text":"我想這也不對這個就是變成說由委我們整個立法院這次成立國家發展基金不當投資跟管理私子調查委員會的運作要變你要發現了哪一項"},{"start":3674.528,"end":3680.77,"text":"那你再來去做一個調查這個社會大臣可以接受那你現在不是就是說我也不曉得他到底有沒有不當或者他這個事故到底是政策的評估裡面有沒有人模不章我全部都不知道反正你就全部給我來看一看我再來找找看這個我想可能失去我們整個當初在野黨的朋友要來成立這樣的一個調查委員會它的一個核心的一個價值"},{"start":3702.915,"end":3710.218,"text":"現在變成 我先來設飛鏢看看你就拿過來 拿過來 拿過來這個就失去了我們整個調查委員會這個整個成立的一個目的啊那不然我很想聽聽看那個林士明委員你來告訴我說我1234我剛好 我可以摸到哪一點聽聽看我來支持你你現在沒有你現在不是說 我也不知道我就是全部不知道你說拿過來我慢慢看搞不好被我看到"},{"start":3730.866,"end":3758.195,"text":"這個不是一個法律人該有的態度啊我相信你在申請調查證據的時候你不會這樣寫啦你這樣寫如果不管我是檢察官或法官馬上把你駁掉了你的證據我根本完全就不會去調查一個沒有一個簡單的一個市民嘛你現在就是設飛鏢嘛就是說任何政府就劃下了一個政黨誰哪一個政黨他所做的一個投資全部都是不當全部都是有弊那任何的一個事故那全部都是裡面都有弊端"},{"start":3759.775,"end":3787.29,"text":"也許會有喔可是你沒講因為你也不知道所以寫這四點你調閱的跟我們整個運作的一個要點你去看我們的要點你看第十一項我們第一個國發基金之投資有無不當外力介入你現在就說我不知道我怎麼會知道有沒有外力的介入你資料給我來我來看看而做出不當的投資決策我不知道"},{"start":3788.342,"end":3811.696,"text":"你要給我來我看看我才知道那這個有點開玩笑啦這個在各委員會裡面啦反而你可以做初步的去做一個努力或者說像黃國昌委員他的天線就比較高一點很多人會提供他一些數據然後去做一個追蹤這個我又認為合理的那一些不是現在是漫無目的的我管你全部給我調過來我慢慢來找找看這個會被笑"},{"start":3817.889,"end":3841.02,"text":"謝謝莊惠泉委員的意見我想從會議主席的立場先做一些客觀事實的描述沒有什麼評價第一個是時間範圍因為提案委員是限制在民國105年以後我剛剛跟大家報告過了按照國發基金他們自己所自我定義的這個範圍"},{"start":3843.442,"end":3862.639,"text":"105年後總共有34家那現在就看說是不是有其他的委員認為有必要把時間範圍給擴大如果有必要把時間範圍給擴大說不要限105年如果不要限105年的話到目前為止我所看到國發基金的資料如果不要限年限那總共有70家"},{"start":3863.84,"end":3878.345,"text":"總共有70家70家老實來講也不是一個什麼太多大的範圍但是是不是時間的範圍有必要進一步的再予以變更或更動主席這邊是尊重各位委員大家提案去變更的權利"},{"start":3879.005,"end":3904.23,"text":"那第二個部分要說明的事情是說因為今天林世民委員等七月委員的提案在客觀的範圍上是完全落入當初我們在院會決議通過這個調查委員會的調查事項的範圍在客觀範圍上是完全落入在那個範圍上面那第三個部分在整個描述的方式上"},{"start":3904.87,"end":3923.431,"text":"跟我們之前本院所成立的調查委員會或是本院所已經有調閱小組的那個前例基本上是一樣的也就是說並沒有預設的採行一個立場所謂採行一個立場是說因為本委員會的目的就是調查事實有不當"},{"start":3924.272,"end":3944.007,"text":"是不是有不當那如果我們已經先認定這個委員會先直接認定就有不當的話那當然那就可能就喪失了這個委員會我們一開始成立的時候最重要的一個宗旨跟目的所以反而林思敏委員她這樣子的寫法不僅在客觀上面符合當初院會決議的調查事項的範圍"},{"start":3946.349,"end":3958.716,"text":"那在主觀上面也沒有看到有什麼太強烈預設的立場那我想我先做這樣一個簡單的補充那不曉得是不是在場還有其他委員有其他的意見來請沈博洋委員"},{"start":3960.342,"end":3987.258,"text":"因為我剛剛在問的是程序問題啦所以我現在進入實質問題因為剛剛那個張瑞雄委員已經提了我覺得這個不是斯民委員的問題這非戰之罪啦為什麼就是因為這一個一開始這一個主題的設計就是說發展經濟不當投資管理失職調查委員會是因為這個一開始就是一個沒有好好特定範圍的主題所以導致這個斯民委員他要提這個的時候呢他就只能變成你只能這樣寫啦那"},{"start":3989.119,"end":3994.16,"text":"這個中性跟這個無關嘛,我今天也可以講說,我認為國科會有弊案,我來成立一個108年到現在,國科會所有不當合作學者調查委員會,然後全部叫過來,也很中性啊,也很中性啊,對不對。我也是中性的在描述一個事實而已啊,反正我就是覺得這一段時間有問題,我就把這一段時間的資料全部調出來嘛。"},{"start":4011.204,"end":4037.13,"text":"所以 我說這個非佔之罪就是因為它一開始就是一個錯誤的成立的調查委員會只是我現在不爭持這一點是因為它已經成立了我們也沒辦法雖然我們有表達過我們的反對意見所以現在即使在這個錯誤的前提下如果我們要好好來做調查我們現在站在調查委員會的這個角度來出發剛剛這個第一個就是因為是先調查了投資績效啊 虧損啊那是不是能夠 譬如說我們先把這第一個"},{"start":4037.87,"end":4043.068,"text":"做出來之後呢我們就可以知道說原來可能是107年對哪一家的公司出現問題了"},{"start":4044.312,"end":4067.935,"text":"然後呢我們再來針對這個來做詳細的調查這樣聽起來就合理多了嘛那不然的話我們現在的困境就會是因為一開始沒設計好我們也就找大範圍的調查那調查完之後呢反正一定會有問題沒有問題我也要想辦法找出問題那這個話就已經失去了真正的調查委員會的意義嘛那不然的話這樣說真的我們不用任何的合理懷疑啊我們只要任何的想要調查的事情全部都成立調查委員會"},{"start":4068.616,"end":4077.584,"text":"所以一開始這個前提有點錯誤啦但我不是在怪罪說這四點而是說那如果我們現在站在調查委員會的角度來處罰我們來聚焦的話那是不是可以從第一點來做一個聚焦然後他們把這個資料提出來之後我們發現哪一個問題再聚焦譬如說這個黃委員最愛講的這個聯合再生還有什麼之前還有什麼公司就是他特定的哪一家公司哪一個問題我們再來做調查嘛"},{"start":4091.537,"end":4113.096,"text":"不然的話這個也會形成一個一堆大家都要去提供這些會議資料啊、簽到表啊、往來的韓文啊那可能到最後也失去了這樣的一個意義那個謝謝沈博安委員,請問還有沒有其他委員的意見那個陳超明委員請其實這個主題非常的明顯那個超明兄你還要說多少?我才有說"},{"start":4119.194,"end":4124.84,"text":"那個協助一下,是不是那支麥克風壞了?那個請委員會的恢復同仁協助一下"},{"start":4132.509,"end":4154.541,"text":"其實這個問題很簡單啦大家也不要複雜化只有34家而且他規定的是直接投資照剛剛主席講的是34家那國外會裡面有一種直接投資有一種是跟那個"},{"start":4156.562,"end":4178.489,"text":"創投公司投資的還有一個是小型企業他投資了幾種那現在這個範圍已經很縮小了那34家你說今天我們要針對子體我是建議這樣把這34家先列出來每一個人認為這家公司有問題的話列出來我們就調查這樣很公開的嘛"},{"start":4180.35,"end":4209.731,"text":"他絕對有問題嘛 三十家沒多少啦這裡面我們大概看過了有很多都是老舊一直留下來的那我相信以這樣大家就不用爭執了等一下說範圍小 等一下又範圍擴大三十四間委員你們大家覺得哪一家有問題去做決定再來選出來 這樣比較不會亂啦選的委員裡面他自己會去主席研究啊"},{"start":4211.499,"end":4225.582,"text":"主席主席好那個謝謝陳昭明委員請問在場還有委員誰有意見來請莊瑞雄委員我的看法是這樣子啦你像比如說你說像陳昭明委員你說有34家嘛"},{"start":4227.037,"end":4242.893,"text":"立法委員對於公帑去投資哪裡那本來就可以監督本來一定可以監督這個我們都不反對我的意思就是說哈利三十四家是用我們這個調查委員會你三十四家都給我拿來我們就有點開玩笑"},{"start":4244.124,"end":4265.193,"text":"你應該是說我立法委員我在問政的時候我基於監督我去關切然後呢我去監督這個國家基金你去投資的時候到底這個政策你來跟我講清楚那這個部分我認為是每一個立法委員可以去做的事情那你因為去監督了你發現了我來在調查委員會裡面我來提案我針對這一家或者拿兩家來調查我又覺得這是非常合理啦"},{"start":4271.016,"end":4281.521,"text":"你現在不是 我就不知道 我怎麼會知道你有合法嗎 你資料沒上來 我怎麼知道那代表你這就是無中生有的我們就是漫無目標的就是說 我在亂射你 全部給我拿過來你資料都給我上來 我有錢沒錢 我辦公室有錢 還是我禮物要找到沒有不用你給我管 我就放下去就好假設"},{"start":4295.663,"end":4298.244,"text":"我今天是投資你索羅門,你們家的,就這麼簡單?國安基金應該投資就好,你會覺得你是在笑嗎?你覺得我對索羅門和國安基金有什麼利益勾結來調查不對嗎?你什麼都不問,總之是要跟我說我很害怕嗎?"},{"start":4313.541,"end":4334.152,"text":"會讓人家覺得我們有一點開玩笑不然國家基金你去投資立法院當然可以監督那都是國家的錢那我的意思是可以監督跟提到本委員會來認為你就是我的調查的對象裡面是有不當投資或者說你這一些會在投資的時候是一個不當的決策"},{"start":4335.493,"end":4340.538,"text":"你總要去釋明我發現了什麼,我再來申請調查這一些法案裡面叫申請調查證據嘛,檢察官看到什麼我要去查我們現在不是,現在就變成說,我都不用,我的心情這個道具要變成政黨惡鬥,這也不好"},{"start":4355.427,"end":4381.823,"text":"委員會裡面變成是大家合意來組成啦那應該你去譬如陳昭明你發現國際基金你投資哪一個我認為那個四股是不對的然後我那個決策是不對的或者認為我這個錢丟到哪一個公司去怎麼到最後全部都虧損了講這些就很具體大家會覺得很合理啊那現在不是是漫無目的的是你有投資的全部好啦我們講台積電就好了沒台沒機你叫台積電傳來要幹什麼"},{"start":4385.982,"end":4389.085,"text":"大家都覺得他賺錢 大家都覺得賭注料很好你說沒有 我管你 你都給我拿來我們這個要幹什麼我們的目的在這裡沒有講清楚會變成政治惡鬥啦"},{"start":4401.882,"end":4419.408,"text":"謝謝莊委員的寶貴意見先跟莊委員報告您剛舉的最後一個例子台積電不在34家的範圍之內我想怕有誤會先跟大家做一個清楚的說明接下來還有其他委員有意見嗎來請陳昌明委員"},{"start":4422.485,"end":4447.511,"text":"我想我們莊委員誤會我的意思我是要簡單又有效你都把我解釋扣到好像掉了34家假設這34家是105年以後我們所有的調查委員你覺得再生人員要調查你指定為什麼要調查這家旅遊血出來像我陳昌明如果要調查別家我一定有寫過旅遊出來這樣來做才會贏"},{"start":4453.626,"end":4463.061,"text":"我建議34家名單先出來然後看哪一些委員要調查哪幾家公司他們自己決定我們再來"},{"start":4464.591,"end":4483.724,"text":"成立這個調查委員會我相信我們就跟委員不會亂撕來說每天就要去調查啦台積電最重要他不曉得是幾年他當初的事故撕給那個荷蘭的那什麼匯率府那一次的事故撕得很大如果那個股份留下來今天不得了啦"},{"start":4485.053,"end":4501.001,"text":"但是在那個時候有一段時間事故之際到底的原因是怎樣我們也不清楚嘛我是覺得給各個委員 認為哪一家公司有問題你提出來我要調查這家公司這樣比較簡單啦 三十四個不是很多啦"},{"start":4508.182,"end":4536.401,"text":"謝謝主席的確剛剛委員的指教因為這個委員會議上次的後續的情況我們所知較少那也經過剛剛委員剛剛主席的提醒之後我們就目前公開資料比較好奇的是105年這條界線因為目前我們看到這105年符合這個標準的大概包括上市商會公司像陽明海運它就列在裡面然後呢"},{"start":4538.843,"end":4553.792,"text":"這個趙偉所關心的爐芯、聯合再生能源也都在這裡面那當然也有一些我們不太能理解的為什麼會在105年裡面譬如說台灣中小企銀我們就奇怪台灣中小企銀它是一個公股銀行"},{"start":4554.83,"end":4573.92,"text":"那他如果要進行了解的話其實不難那的確剛剛有提到所謂的台積電台積電很早啦台積電是在75年12月大概我們韓社範圍不會跑那麼遠但是有一家也不再這麼早也不是這麼近它叫理想大地它是在民國90年的時候"},{"start":4574.622,"end":4592.488,"text":"那這一家為什麼剛好是在105年這一條線之前我也不理解因為他也不是像台積電那樣很早很早了那至於這當中還有一些公司過去大家有在關切的好像一卡通票證又有人討論那這是沒有列入顯然認為他不是有問題那有些的確我們去看到一下財經版裡面過去曾經有在關切的像我因為"},{"start":4603.735,"end":4623.653,"text":"接觸一些陳情就看到譬如有三顧有樂嘉再生那因為這兩家公司呢的確我們看到的有些財經版當中的確有一些公司的新聞出來那如果這兩家因為委員們看到了新聞報導覺得要來調查我覺得就很明確的把它列出來我不是說我個人"},{"start":4624.494,"end":4638.945,"text":"我只是說從這34項名單當中就我們去判斷為什麼提案委員會列105年這條線在這105年之前的台積電不用講75年不用講那理想大地沒有列入為什麼"},{"start":4639.673,"end":4656.518,"text":"那在這一條線之後的有包括了台灣中小企銀台灣中小企銀其實公股銀行為什麼要列入有什麼問題之前不能透過其他對於委會當中對於金管會對於財政部的監督拿不到"},{"start":4657.518,"end":4676.838,"text":"那在當然在這後面當中有幾個又是我們最近比較常大家因為某些重大的國家政策而浮出檯面的像台灣國際造船這在107年像隆德造船在108年那如果大家我所記印象沒有錯的話這些都是涉及到我們國建國造潛艦國造當中"},{"start":4678.9,"end":4699.114,"text":"或者說不見得是潛艦國造是包括了我們的海巡包括了我們海軍的相關的巡防艦艇的公司那如果這些公司有問題那就問題很嚴重了那如果說針對這些問題我們質疑國艦國造過程當中是不是有什麼弊案那這樣我們就很明確所以我是覺得說這105年這一條線劃的"},{"start":4702.276,"end":4713.444,"text":"因為從剛剛到現在因為提案委員有七位嘛那領銜的林思敏委員思敏委員還沒有來得及說明那我希望說剛剛幾位委員的詢問詢詢都是關切到這34家當中有我們覺得疑惑為什麼納入的是在105年之後"},{"start":4720.129,"end":4735.159,"text":"有些是在165年之前為什麼沒有納入如果這樣講就講不完所以我們很希望說是不是具體的聚焦說如果是34家哪幾家什麼問題我們或許在委員會進行的時候可以請相關的國發會就相關的這些的韓文相關的檔案相關的會議紀錄這些委員會想知道的才有辦法請他們來提供來印證我們的懷疑是不是有事實根據以上說明"},{"start":4752.491,"end":4765.679,"text":"謝謝中央嘉賓委員主席剛剛宣告過的事情我再重複講一次給各位委員做參考目前我們在處理的是由林思敏等七位委員他們所提出來的調閱事項的範圍"},{"start":4768.18,"end":4782.195,"text":"那不管就客觀的範圍還是就時間的範圍其他委員會的委員如果有不一樣的看法都歡迎大家可以提案出來這樣我們有一個比較具體明確的目標或者是標的可以來加以"},{"start":4783.596,"end":4810.377,"text":"教育處理沒有啊我說在場的其他委員如果譬如說你認為105年不對應該要往前三年往前五年往前十年在本委員會裡面委員們大概都有相同平等可以去提案的機會因為我剛已經做過了宣告我想說再提醒我們所有與會的各位委員那請問還有其他委員有意見嗎來請莊烈雄委員"},{"start":4814.988,"end":4836.955,"text":"那個 市民先來不好意思 我剛剛沒有看到那個市民委員有舉手那我致謝 那個 先停一下莊委員您是不是同意我先讓林市民委員發言好 謝謝你 來 請林市民委員謝謝莊業熊我想我都充分尊重我們今天在場所有委員大家的一個發言喔那就是說"},{"start":4838.075,"end":4848.203,"text":"為什麼從105年開始其實該主席就講過了就是我們的整個國發基金他所謂的直接投資組合的重要新興事業是在105年開始國發會有這樣子的一個定義所以我們當然就是從這個時候來開始做這個調查"},{"start":4859.412,"end":4886.242,"text":"那我想就說該什麼委員的指教就是說那是不是從第一項開始就一年投資績效及虧損情形如果相關回覆我們察覺到有哪幾家有這種情況之後我們再來接下來做第二第三第四點我們再來做這個相關的調查這個當然這也是不無道理啦其實我想我們就是剛才基於說效率的問題其實我沒有預設立場說我已經一定要調查哪一家"},{"start":4887.242,"end":4890.565,"text":"那我們認為說要更有效率的讓我們調查委員會來了解所有這34家在整個這個國發基金投資他哪裡有不當或有沒有什麼相關的這些人有失職的地方那我們認為說整個會計錄整個這些整個當時投資過程的相關的這些會議資料我想我們都一定要去了解"},{"start":4912.242,"end":4928.24,"text":"你充分了解之後我們才能整理出我們調查委員會才能整理出相關的大概釐清相關的一個事實的一個的一個元貌我們才能做進一步的調查所以我想這也是基於效率上的一個考量"},{"start":4929.441,"end":4952.617,"text":"所以我們該主席也體會到我的用意我們真的是很中性的很客觀的希望我們的調查委員會我們不針對哪一個公司有疑問所以剛才瑞雲講說你是不是應該這個市民說哪一家公司有疑問啊所以我剛才就講了我們沒有針對哪一家公司所以我們不會去特別說哪一家公司怎樣那因為剛才講了"},{"start":4953.638,"end":4963.466,"text":"因為我們只有從報載裡面去了解說有時候哪一家公司虧損是不是有怎麼樣怎麼樣怎麼樣相關的一些弊端所以我們現在就是說我們不去預設立場那個不好意思喔 主持差一下話我們很不預設立場那個水泳啊 抱歉你先不說話等一下就換你了你這樣說 我這樣說一段我就需要回答沒有啦 我就隨便回聽"},{"start":4976.417,"end":4995.638,"text":"那個那個 也請市議院委員稍微停一下啦就是我 就還是請各位委員尊重其他委員發言啦 水泳 先拜託先讓他講啦 講完你有意見都會給你時間講好 來 請所以我的意思說 我們把整個資料調來我們把事情的原貌大概去了解一下"},{"start":4996.058,"end":5015.787,"text":"我們不針對哪一個特定的公司他是不是有弊端我們去馬上就是司令還沒調來我就說他有問題所以我想我這是一個很客觀的提案所以我剛才講希望大家支持好 以上 謝謝主席好 那個謝謝市民委員接下來請莊銳雄委員這個林市民委員這個講法我實在聽不下去他叫做笨蛋你知道嗎"},{"start":5024.551,"end":5029.993,"text":"剛剛林士敏委員的意思是說因為我沒有預設立場啊這34家裡面我也沒有講你是哪一家啊不然你要幹什麼我們這個調查委員會就是要針對特定的哪幾家不是嗎你要針對34家我沒有意見但是你至少你是個法律人你要先釋明我發現了些什麼"},{"start":5047.057,"end":5049.278,"text":"所以我一定要調查你這個就聚焦囉你現在不是你剛剛的講法就是說我沒有特定立場我先調來看看你這個話講出來就是說我比較有預設立場我也沒有說你現在有投資有弊端啦"},{"start":5062.365,"end":5078.762,"text":"所以嘛我的意思就是說你這個叫懶惰嘛這個真的沒有效率嘛你本來該去監督的你應該是發揮你立法委員的職權你去監督他你發現了說國發基金你放了多少錢多少錢在哪幾家公司裡面是不當的"},{"start":5083.986,"end":5100.758,"text":"你聽不懂我的意思你跟廣告長對他如何你講我跟他講一句話他就叫我不要跟你講你跟他講多久莊惠雄委員我必須要持平的講因為他沒有按麥克風阿姑仔你有請麥克風所以我善意提醒你一下來繼續請莊惠雄委員沒有請麥克風叫他善意喔沒有請麥克風叫他騷擾你知不知道來 這樣"},{"start":5106.763,"end":5110.945,"text":"我不會說出來這個市民委員你講的越講越心虛啊你怎麼會不心虛你辦過的案子裡面你哪一個案子在調查證據的時候你不需要去市民整個代證事實的哪有說好啦這個案子給你審啦不管你是做法官還是做檢察官給你審啦現在一個人跟他說你給我調查調查他會說你是要叫我查什麼"},{"start":5132.495,"end":5158.524,"text":"你這個哪叫準備程序調查委員會不是在準備調查委員會不是說你不能針對目的調查委員會本來就是要針對特定的目的哪一些投資會有弊端哪一些決策有錯啊你現在又告訴我說我沒有預設立場34家我都沒有說他有問題你這個很可怕你這種態度很可怕"},{"start":5159.898,"end":5178.749,"text":"不不不不不我們這個叫做調查委員會你要針對失職的那你告訴我嘛你現在的前提是說我們要調查他有沒有這些官員投資有沒有失職嘛啊你現在告訴我說我哪知道他有沒有失職你又沒有給我資料你代表我毫無發現的時候"},{"start":5182.344,"end":5193.594,"text":"你那個叫做國會議員該去監督到底哪一些官員有沒有失職那個可以去做那立法院我都沒有意見那我現在跟你講的就是說你現在放了34家那34家裡面你要來告訴各位成員說你看這34家好可惡喔這些官員給我拿去亂投資績效這麼差事故這個決策是有錯誤你跟我講這個我會支持你耶"},{"start":5206.886,"end":5223.338,"text":"啊你現在告訴我說我又沒有說這34家有問題但是你要調來看看我才知道有沒有問題你這叫做搞政治鬥爭而已嘛你具體去指涉幾家然後搞不好讓你摸到了也不一定啊你現在不是亂打亂射飛鏢你說查調過來我看看是啊你這句話對啊那你就把有問題的列出來啊"},{"start":5236.511,"end":5244.956,"text":"所以說嘛 所以說嘛我們要調查的是有問題的你現在是說我哪知道哪裡家有問題全部都先當有問題這樣對不對我這個不是立場這是基本常識好不好來來來 你先看看我們這個名稱我們成立這個委員會的名稱叫做什麼"},{"start":5265.612,"end":5269.574,"text":"不是調咱們投資不當,是不當投資我們要把那些人給揪出來那個我想請教一下莊委員,您發言完了嗎?可以了齁,好來我們接下來請崇嘉賓委員"},{"start":5286.206,"end":5313.023,"text":"好謝謝主席那個謝謝主席三番兩次幫我們提案人市民委員做說明啦那我終於知道34家來源了也確定了新興事業那新興事業可能我這樣講剛剛市民委員在強調說105年之後的是新興事業這是國發會的定義但是我不能理解為什麼原因讓你覺得這些新興事業有問題"},{"start":5314.404,"end":5326.994,"text":"因為我們在這個本委員會成立的提案案文在院會的時候是寫說有包括爐心包括了聯合再生那這一個是在106年一個107年那是否因為他們是106年107年落在新興事業的範圍所以你就全部的新興事業都有嫌疑舉個例子啦"},{"start":5339.324,"end":5354.575,"text":"阿伯阿公他腳踏車沒了啦警察問他說你有沒有看到什麼異常看到兩個年輕人有鬼鬼祟祟的那糟糕了這年輕人的定義是幾歲那警察就說好吧那我們就附近的只要是95年次的通通找來問"},{"start":5357.068,"end":5372.231,"text":"我不知道這樣可不可以啦又或者說呢這個我看到人個子很高糟糕了個子高這個定義在我們這些那個年代175沒有175你不要說你高個子現在年輕人不得了啦185才算高個子啊"},{"start":5372.711,"end":5378.953,"text":"那你叫這個警察怎麼辦案如果阿伯跟你說那個腳色不見之前看到兩個年輕人鬼鬼祟祟個子很高那到底要從幾年次開始調查從幾公分開始調查還是說就明確的我看到那個是張三跟李氏我們家隔壁的那兩個小貓頭那警察當然先去說從張三跟李氏找來問嘛"},{"start":5393.596,"end":5421.965,"text":"那今天我們的題外我們就講很清楚啦就是盧興跟聯合再生這明明有子民道姓有張三有李氏很明確的這兩家你不能因為他們兩個張三跟李氏長得有185公分年紀又在95年次以後你就說那個全部我們村裡面所有這個年次以後生的所有這個身高以上的通通找來調查都已經告訴你名字了嘛盧興也講了嘛聯合再生也講了嘛那這樣子我們"},{"start":5423.12,"end":5441.565,"text":"沒有具體的理由的就以這兩家公司是在105年之後被投資的而且呢他們就是剛好這105年也是事後去知道說國發化有一個105年的就有一個類別叫做新興投資範圍那如果明明知道班上哪兩個同學可能有什麼問題"},{"start":5443.106,"end":5469.524,"text":"你就把那兩個早學找到訓導處問啊怎麼會把全班全班都找去你們這個班叫做三年假班人家說跟三甲有關的那三甲的張三理事不只全部通通調去問所以呢我這裡是要跟林士明委員請教說既然提案文已經明確的講到盧興跟聯合再生那為什麼我們不第一個階段先請個提案文的1234把盧興跟聯合再生都找來"},{"start":5470.385,"end":5489.166,"text":"然後好好的看當中哪些數據剛剛莊委員說的他的不當投資是誰有責任這兩家公司投資的管理失職是哪些會議上所做的錯誤決策是要就較於提案委員這個問題不是在質疑你為什麼是新興公司也不是在質疑你為什麼是105年剛剛我們沒有在質疑105年"},{"start":5492.209,"end":5513.782,"text":"沒有在指100年你也可以化成90年啊你也化成是100年啊但是問題是你講的類別是剛好新興事業是105年那剛好如新跟聯合再生是繞在這個範圍內於是呢你全班同學都找來問就告訴你是張三跟李氏了為什麼不先問張三李氏就這樣的意思而已嘛所以市民委員我們並沒有說"},{"start":5515.703,"end":5538.732,"text":"懷疑您的用意那你說那因為你把全部的新興資料都調出來我們那麼就疑惑倒不是質疑你的105年的界限範圍啦是說為什麼不先聯合再生跟爐心先來查好不好那個我要先不好意思喔那個林思敏委員因為剛剛沈伯陽委員先舉手所以我要先尊重他那我們先請沈伯陽委員"},{"start":5540.342,"end":5566.809,"text":"我還是要強調我覺得這個林思敏委員真的是被這個前面的這個前提害了啦那這個前提因為我剛又去拿這個原本我們院會做成的決議那他一開始提的是如新跟聯合再生嘛那時候在調查委員會的時候我就有發言過我就有講說這感覺好像已經調查完了嘛因為這個已經是已經在檯面上大家現在已經說如新怎樣聯合再生怎樣那我們現在要連結的就是說呢我們會認為說可能投資都有相關的爭議但"},{"start":5568.909,"end":5588.795,"text":"假設像如昕跟聯合再生都是因為有人爆料有人陳情等等之類的把這個嫌疑拿出來然後說所以我們要調查我覺得這個聽起來是正當的但現在第一個就是我們剛講有34家嘛那到底是哪幾家有那個一開始初始的那個不管是陳情啊嫌疑啊等等之類的如果有的話我們可以很快的就說"},{"start":5589.575,"end":5617.506,"text":"我就認為陽明海運106年這個投資的因為有人爆料說怎樣怎樣所以我們要特別針對這個我覺得這樣才會是一個比較好的啟動方式而且因為這個我是自己再去看這個國家發展的記報雖然他後來這個重要新興事業投資的定義是105以後開始但因為他可以回溯以前他也會說哪些是重要新興的事業投資所以變成說只要是按照他這個新的定義加起來他自己列的是70"},{"start":5619.567,"end":5643.585,"text":"剛剛好70家那我就會覺得說那是不是這70家其實我們都要注意如果說按照一樣的邏輯的話但是就算我們認為這70家我們都應該要注意譬如說理想大地我們認為要注意我們認為Gogoro要注意元晶太陽能我們應該要注意那一定是因為有一個初始的嫌疑嘛那不然的話呢我們畢竟我們在做的這個調查按照我們上次通過的要點"},{"start":5644.446,"end":5667.964,"text":"其實某種成立是一種公權力的形式這個公權力的形式我想中憲委員會也很熟悉警察在做這種事情的時候他一定有一個合理的懷疑我們現在不是在做臨檢不是說什麼就是這個路口封起來只要經過的人全部都給我過來然後我們看到底哪一個人有嫌疑我們應該我們以我立法院調查委員會的層級好像不應該是做類似臨檢的動作而是應該有一定的懷疑"},{"start":5668.484,"end":5687.515,"text":"那因為有一定的懷疑我相信不管是我們的這個主席或者說國民黨的一些委員可能本來就有接到一些可能爆料啊或者什麼等等之類的我覺得這可以當作第一個標準嘛就是列一個標準第二個標準就是我剛剛講的在你寫的那個第一點市民委員寫的那個第一點就是什麼"},{"start":5688.476,"end":5702.393,"text":"投資績效啦 虧損情形啦這感覺應該也是可以作為一個標準那我們可以把這些標準列出來之後呢然後再說我們根據這個標準我們挑來哪些公司然後我們來做相關的調查這樣反而好像也不一定要限在105這一個時間點這是我的一個建議"},{"start":5710.717,"end":5724.123,"text":"主席我想我再做最後的發言其實我想謝謝大家的指教其實我要再重申我想我的立場非常明確我沒有任何預設的立場說對34家IT是哪一家有問題"},{"start":5725.504,"end":5741.713,"text":"那其實我是依照我們這個通過的運作要點第11條就是我們本會調查的對象就是國家發展委員會他的所屬以及行政院國家發展基金管理委員會等有關機關我們對他的這個調查事項的範圍我們做出今天這一個這個這個擬調閱文件與資料的這樣子的一個提案"},{"start":5755,"end":5771.212,"text":"所以我想我並沒有逾越整個我們運作要點做出這樣的提案當然大家的意見我想我充分與你尊重但是我還是要重申今天做這樣子的一個提案完全是基於一個我覺得我們既然要成立調查委員會那我們對於說國發會"},{"start":5774.414,"end":5795.232,"text":"他這個所直接管投資主要所管理的重要的新興事業那我們以免掛一漏外我們就希望說每一家每一家我們都能夠提供請他提供相關的他的這些這個投資的績效以及虧損的情形作為我們日後再進一步調查的一個依據那絕對沒有預設立場"},{"start":5797.794,"end":5812.09,"text":"不要去報宅說哪幾家哪幾家我們就一定要限於只調查哪幾家也請各位委員能夠了解我的用意以上 謝謝好 謝謝林思明委員請問在場委員還有沒有意見來 請莊瑞雄委員"},{"start":5814.472,"end":5839.032,"text":"謝謝 市民委員這樣的講法我還是跟你再來做一個聚焦啦不預設立場是好事啦但是總是有一個合理的可疑再來在一個至少有一個合理的可疑然後在整個調查委員會裡面來提案這個才會社會上想看到的是調查委員會發揮這樣的一個功能嘛你說有弊端或者亂投資執政黨都不會去包庇的 你放心啦"},{"start":5843.991,"end":5857.475,"text":"我也不會去包庇啊我都認為我會支持你啊老百姓的錢國家的錢拿去亂投資裡面有人模不章那當然不只是要追究還要移送法辦像我的意思就是說你反而把它講反了你說34家我不預設立場好 不預設立場就好事但是我只要你告訴我說哪一些蛛絲馬跡我認為裡面涉及到弊端將來提案這樣子的意義才"},{"start":5873.979,"end":5875.64,"text":"才是調查委員會裡面我們要來調查的不然你說把我覺得全部一網打盡先來篩篩看"},{"start":5882.905,"end":5893.231,"text":"國會可以監督喔我認為國會可以監督你時間夠的話你可以這樣去玩喔但是我們既然是一個調查委員會的話我們是不是可以聚焦你比如說聯合再生這黃委員常常在講的他也舉了一些證據或者說你說盧興這個我都尊重像你講的很具體了那你說這個國會裡面我們去反對你說可以調閱這些資料那我們沒有道理我們沒有道理但是你說要把它一網打盡"},{"start":5908.659,"end":5922.464,"text":"你又告訴我說我沒預設立場我也不知道沒看到資料以前我不知道他有沒有弊端這樣又把我們整個委員會又落掉了就變成說你該監督的前階段你譬如說各委員會你可以去做成決議的要求官員我要做一個強力的監督你要來告訴我哪一些是什麼或者說你發現了說我這怎麼公帑投資下去了那怎麼是虧損連連這有問題"},{"start":5934.688,"end":5954.604,"text":"那這個有問題我來指明了我要來調查這個沒有人會認為說你這樣不管是問政或者調查有任何的一個不當可是你現在又告訴我說我不預設立場我都不知道我要先看資料以後才說所以調查委員我們就來調查這些怪啦我是告訴你說這個在我聽起來就覺得很奇怪以上好不好再一次的奉勸好 謝謝莊瑞璇委員那請問在場委員有無意見來請吳思亞委員"},{"start":5967.905,"end":5987.787,"text":"那這樣子對不起我更正一下那我們請陳超明委員其實這樣討論討論不完民進黨執政黨在房子調查105年那我是提示一個我們對一個今天有34家當然要針對對象第一個他的股權"},{"start":5989.909,"end":6004.341,"text":"國發會投資的比例多少它歷年的績效如何是賺錢還是虧損還有它的股東名冊那這裡面其實你看到一個台三顧問台三基金當初也在立法院裡面"},{"start":6006.087,"end":6024.334,"text":"大家講了很久,也催促了很久,但是它有一點你沒有辦法去監督、去了解。因為它的政府國外的投資沒有超過50%屬於民間企業,你只能說曉得它投資,你沒有辦法監督。"},{"start":6025.234,"end":6040.586,"text":"我一直在說這件事啦,大家都在我委員會,都很公平。那把這個資料看完,每一個委員認為哪一家有公司有問題的話,他就提起一個視訊出來跟大家報告,這樣就好了,不然這個會不會完啦。"},{"start":6043.763,"end":6071.735,"text":"34家不多很容易看啦請會計師一看就馬上瞭解啦所以你先給34家的基本資料出來就好了嘛那下一支開會的話每一個委員提出他要監督哪一家公司要看哪一家公司有問題但是要提出他的證據出來啦不然今天這樣說不算好建議是這樣好謝謝陳昌明委員那我們接下來請吳志耀委員發言"},{"start":6073.603,"end":6088.922,"text":"謝謝大家辛苦了,第一次發言。誠如我在這個調查委員會成立之初,我就提出大概如同剛剛本黨幾位委員的見解,這是一個調查的主體不明,包山包海。"},{"start":6089.463,"end":6113.946,"text":"沒有辦法精準打擊的調查委員會那直至於我今天手上看到的這個提案其實坦白講這個調閱的文件跟資料經濟委員會的委員平常都可以去調閱都可以去了解透過你的質詢透過你在對於國發會行使立委的監督職責的時候其實都可以去關心國發基金的很多投資的政策執行"},{"start":6115.407,"end":6136.778,"text":"所以今天既然是一個調查委員會人家說不管是先射箭或畫再畫把或是先畫把再射箭我不知道這個是屬於哪一種狀況就是全部掉來然後你沒有辦法去精準的去mark去target你認為有問題的部分"},{"start":6140.222,"end":6165.283,"text":"那我們大家坐在這裡都是這個調查委員會的成員請問調來的資料可能疊得多高我不知道會不會像我們每年審預算預算書疊得那麼高我不知道我們作為一個負責任的或者是要能夠在我們的職權範圍有能力去吸收資料"},{"start":6166.084,"end":6190.24,"text":"翻閱資料 解讀資料的這個權限的形式上來看你掉了這一拖拉庫34家加起來105年到現在當然我也很質疑啦你的target是105年開始而105年以前就沒有問題105年以後就有問題也OK啊 那你指出哪些間有問題嘛或是哪一個年度 哪個月份有問題嘛"},{"start":6191.861,"end":6206.552,"text":"那都沒有辦法我真的可以預測這個調來資料可能是像預算數一樣高請問我們在場這些委員不管各黨誰有能力誰有餘裕誰有專業一張一張會議記錄翻著看一頁一頁投資的績效來核對我覺得是實質上執行上也有相當的困難那"},{"start":6220.33,"end":6246.981,"text":"所以提案委員是私名大哥嘛我也不知道提案委員您示意一下要來的你的第一點歷年持股比例變化歷年投資金額歷年公股代表名單歷年投資績效及虧損情形好啊你有辦法我們要花多少時間幾天幾夜對不對我們還有我們各自委員會的本務嘛第二點裡頭更要細到他們的會議紀錄會議資料及簽到表"},{"start":6251.906,"end":6274.672,"text":"第三點一樣又依據事故政策評估的會議記錄會議資料跟簽到表你如果覺得幫助國發會人家可以精準的提供資料哪一個月份哪一筆的投資哪一個公司的哪一個個案的執行你們認為顯有疑義可能涉及弊端這樣大家是不是"},{"start":6275.911,"end":6303.908,"text":"省市清楚明白否則你現在是從空泛的當中去找問題那不需要成立調查委員會你就回到經濟委員會去行使你的職權在我來看這是經濟委員會的委員每年在執行的他的監督要項那這個調查委員會有什麼特別之處所以我們一直希望說到底對於哪一個哪一間公司有異議"},{"start":6305.802,"end":6309.389,"text":"而且一直在說我們不能這樣漫無目的的去質疑"},{"start":6313.154,"end":6336.099,"text":"因為這當中可能會涉及哪些公司就像我們講不管是聯合再生或者是如昕曾經在提案委員的這個提案書裡頭寫的有的是監察院在查有的是檢調在查我們把手伸到了司法體系或監察院裡頭其他的憲法機關的權力核心領域我們也沒有這個權力啊"},{"start":6338.246,"end":6347.039,"text":"所以我看國發會的同仁看到這個可能整個過年在家裡抱頭痛哭好了光整理這些資料不曉得用幾個卡車運過來"},{"start":6349.416,"end":6367.852,"text":"請問我們我之前也在司法法治委員會我也詢問過這個問題我也想請這個主席或是我們調查委員會的這些幕僚同仁我很想了解我們的各黨委員成員非常明確但是呢依據一個立法院職權新施法"},{"start":6368.939,"end":6385.226,"text":"多數被宣告違憲一個拼裝車不完整的立法院的調查權的行使所組成的調查委員會請問我們在場的議事人員辛苦你們了你們各來自於立法院的哪一個編制你是經濟委員會派來的還是你是財政委員會的專委就是說就這些我們的幕僚同仁他們怎麼分工他們怎麼去cover怎麼去處理應對"},{"start":6398.309,"end":6423.505,"text":"這一個調查委員會要進行的事務我在審議立法院的預算的時候我也問啊我也問說我們現在這麼多雨後春筍的調查委員會一個一個成立那立法院未來怎麼針對每一個調查委員會你是要增加人力或者是說你從哪裡來組建這個各個調查委員會的同仁好那你的"},{"start":6424.905,"end":6442.117,"text":"這個人事費是不是足夠都反映在預算上因為這對我們的議事人員就增加非常多的業務的時間跟負擔所以我想問一下等一下或許是主席可以跟我們示意一下要這麼多的調查文件跟資料"},{"start":6443.072,"end":6470.364,"text":"好我們姑且不要論我們的立委有沒有這個心思餘裕或是這個真心誠意或這個專業真的要來解讀這些資料我很想知道本調查委員會的議事人員的組成有多少位他們來自於哪些委員會的組成那就他們的評估這些資料怎麼樣來分工消化怎麼提供在未來的會議上能夠讓幫助委員們一起來進行了解"},{"start":6474.065,"end":6501.117,"text":"所以結論就是 我不知道到底要查什麼誰可以告訴我要查什麼議事人員麻木得修啦不只這個國發會提供這些資料的同仁真的是很難過年我看我們立法院這些議事人員麻木得修很難過年所以主席可以幫我們回答一下嗎我們調查委員會這些議事同仁有多少人員我們很想替他們爭取合理的"},{"start":6502.556,"end":6507.692,"text":"對 工作時間的增加 工作loading的增加這個東西是主席可以回覆一下嗎謝謝"},{"start":6512.071,"end":6538.436,"text":"謝謝吳士堯委員的發言針對吳委員剛剛所提到的幾個事項在我會議主席可以處理到的職權範圍當中我跟委員會的委員們做報告第一個本委員會有關議事人員人員資調派完全是由秘書處在秘書長的分配下面來加以進行對我個人而言我不認識"},{"start":6539.716,"end":6555.119,"text":"任何的一個議事人員這個是本委員會的成立是因為院會已經做成了決議在院會做成了決議了以後秘書長就顯院長之命那針對必要議事人員的分派"},{"start":6555.74,"end":6576.513,"text":"那我相信在立法院裡面有關於議事人員在處理的事項從來也不是接受個別委員的指揮是由秘書處這邊來加以處理的那首先就議事人員的部分在我執掌範圍之內可以理解的我先說明如上那個不好意思請委員那個麥克風按掉因為我話還沒有說完"},{"start":6578.954,"end":6601.308,"text":"那第二個部分當然吳委員也垂詢了那個資料量會不會很大如何如何那這個我可能沒有辦法幫國發會來回答但是我可以依照既有的經驗以我自己個人過去既有的經驗來提供給各位委員做參考這個資料量絕對不像各位委員所想像當中的大"},{"start":6602.188,"end":6629.362,"text":"那為什麼我會這樣子說呢?請容我說明第一個我第一次當立委的時候深入去挖的是盧興的弊案盧興的弊案今天那個市民委員如果按照市民委員所提的那個1234那個1234的東西我幾乎都調到幾乎幾乎但是不是全部送來的大概就三個資料夾沒有別的送來的就三個資料夾"},{"start":6630.882,"end":6659.731,"text":"沒有別的那第二個部分是說那經濟委員會都可以去調那我自己第二個經驗我也跟大家分享我第二次回到立法院以後我再去跟國發會調其他投資案一模一樣的資料國發會就拒絕提供國發會就拒絕提供那當然我從一個個別立委的角度來講我是充滿了困惑我那時候2017年要調爐心的調得到"},{"start":6660.816,"end":6685.224,"text":"我再回來以後一模一樣的東西因為我請我辦公室的同仁把我以前的檔案找出來我只有改公司名其他的敘述都沒改變一模一樣的發給我們的國發會我們的國發會是拒絕提供拒絕提供那拒絕提供的範圍到什麼程度呢拒絕提供的範圍是開會委員的名單跟簽到簿都不給"},{"start":6686.414,"end":6711.975,"text":"那個東西我以前就要過啊但他們現在就不給我也覺得很困惑當然我也有在反省在思考是不是我在調盧星案的時候因為那些會議紀錄跟簽到簿被我調出來社會大眾普遍知道原來我們那個國發基金相關的審查委員會不是請假就是代理一拖拉鼓的人通通都沒有來所以導致出來所呈現的荒謬的狀況是什麼"},{"start":6713.556,"end":6735.983,"text":"荒謬的狀況就是主席這樣子講他那個會就只是過個水因為我這些過去在爐心相關質詢的帶子目前在網路上面都可以搜尋得到那我今天以就是說過去的 既往的個人的一些小小的經驗提供給各位委員做參考的是不是符合客觀描述的事實當然社會大眾"},{"start":6736.863,"end":6756.62,"text":"都可以去做檢驗所以如果說是以去調的話那我就真的要跟大家講我的經驗我之前調爐心的時候很多都還調得到當然不是全部當然不是全部有很多他們也不給我那但是到現在再回來立法院以後一模一樣的東西再去調"},{"start":6759.443,"end":6773.601,"text":"國發會國發基金就不給了那說不給就不給我拿他們也沒有辦法人家就不給我能夠怎麼辦呢那第三個部分是說是不是有監察院在悉數當中的案子如新"},{"start":6775.123,"end":6804.093,"text":"就我自己個人所知的部分我跟大家報告因為我那個時候人不在立法院的時候我人在民間社會的時候我擔任台灣公益階屏存在保護者協會的理事長那那個時候的監察院他為了要去調查這個案子曾經有發函本協會那希望本協會派專家過去協助那基於公益的目的我們也做了這一件事情那到目前為止就我所知"},{"start":6805.093,"end":6825.578,"text":"就是監察院有在調查的盧興、東北跟聯合再生那這三個調查目前監察院已經調查完畢了已經調查完畢了調查報告跟糾正報告都在監察院的網站上面大家都可以看得到所以也沒有什麼侵奪監察院職權的問題因為監察院已經調查完畢了"},{"start":6828.459,"end":6852.199,"text":"那當然從立法院的角度來講從我個人的角度上面來講我看了監察院的那個調查報告那我就必須要老實的跟大家分享我的看法就是失望透底就是失望透底一個堂堂的監察院認為他們有很多調查的權限有很多調查的人員還有調查官配合監委在行使職權"},{"start":6853.48,"end":6867.315,"text":"調查出來的東西就只有長成這個樣子最後做一個不痛不癢的糾正半個人都沒有被彈劾我個人對於監察院說已經終結的調查報告跟糾正報告我主觀個人的評價是這個樣子"},{"start":6869.758,"end":6896.094,"text":"那我還是要回到今天會議主席的身份因為今天我是以主席的立場來主持這一場會議那我還是要尊重在場委員今天因為已經由林世民委員他已經提了具體的案子出來了那當然其他的委員如果等一下針對林世民委員等七位委員所提出來的要調閱的範圍大家有不同的意見認為105年以後範圍太窄"},{"start":6898.915,"end":6922.669,"text":"應該再往前10年從95年開始或者是認為客觀範圍太多那應該要限縮那我都歡迎各位委員然後依照林思敏委員所提出來的提案來進行修正那以上先跟各位委員做如上的說明那現在目前有林思敏委員等"},{"start":6924.079,"end":6927.49,"text":"人見請本案停止討論 進行處理請問在場委員有無意見"},{"start":6931.314,"end":6950.909,"text":"有意見好那我們因為現在主席必須要依照提案的內容來加以處理那現在進行本案停止討論來加以處理所以調查委員會也是不討論只表決就對了立法院上上下下從各委員會不好意思討論很久了不好意思請各位委員尊重一下"},{"start":6954.412,"end":6964.585,"text":"主席在主持會議林志明是不是可以稍微跟我們講一下你要證明什麼主席在主持會議如果這樣調查委員會你也不用調查了主持會議我全部都順中問題是你要調查什麼你不告訴我們"},{"start":6974.025,"end":6976.188,"text":"林師明我發現了哪一家公司這家公司因為我掛進去投資我虧損了好多 指名我就說確實這個貸政事實是有必要的"},{"start":6990.169,"end":7009.245,"text":"什麼時候來 你在告狗這件事就是說一個犯罪調查先把全部人都調查一遍然後最後再來找他我還是要跟所有委員會的委員稍微說明一下我現在是按照議事規則在主持整個議事那剛剛我也都給各位委員充分發言的機會那現在"},{"start":7012.627,"end":7027.043,"text":"建請本案停止討論進付表決請問在場委員有無異議有異議有異議那我們現在就進行處理來請議事人員現在請點分數你只要你最後用表決的方式認為你想修理的人是誰"},{"start":7028.044,"end":7033.131,"text":"你都不需要有任何明確的好 那個議事人員請點人數在場幾位委員 總共有九位這個立法院就是只會表決平主討論的提案的請舉手就是只會表決"},{"start":7045.117,"end":7060.37,"text":"你還消音嗎 就是只會表決好 現在贊成的有1 2 3 4 5 6反對的請舉手這個表決院就是只會表決反對的有三位這調查委員會就是表決委員會嘛那現在林思琳委員進行反檔進行討論進覆表決6票 站隊數同步那接下來我們進行"},{"start":7070.057,"end":7076.221,"text":"針對有關於林思敏委員針對調閱的資料來進行處理那請問針對林思敏委員的提案在場委員有無異議有異議我們進行處理請請點在場人數在場人數有9位來在場的請提出按照院會按照要點"},{"start":7095.552,"end":7101.776,"text":"黃國昌是只會表決嗎剛剛這句話正正講的四次都沒有回答問題啊你如心怎麼調查跟我們現在討論的有什麼關係對啊而且現在是我要問你要調查的是如心嗎要調查的是誰講要調查的是誰講黃國昌沒有比較高明啦黃國昌還是一樣只會表決啦黃國昌就是一樣嘛"},{"start":7126.413,"end":7127.194,"text":"請尊重會議主席"},{"start":7144.956,"end":7150.262,"text":"只會消音 只會消音前面都好好講欸 程序問題只會消音 程序問題要處理啊"},{"start":7162.903,"end":7189.039,"text":"請你們尊重會議主席你有沒有尊重我們參與的委員我們今天都好好講如果要提什麼東西就正式提出來不要一直按著麥克風進行意識的干擾請提議委員提出來請提議委員提出來還要調查哪一間公司哪一個年哪一季有虧損有弊端有不當投資在本委員會當中不是這樣"},{"start":7190.48,"end":7213.462,"text":"委員彼此之間沒有相互執行的權利而且剛剛已經提了兩個標準市民委員也認為很有道理啊那為什麼就變停職討論了那這個因為我要尊重其他委員提停職討論的權利人家書面已經拿來就要進行處理了我再講一個程序問題好不好拜託程序問題程序問題是在那個要點裡面那一個"},{"start":7213.922,"end":7241.406,"text":"要把資料放在哪裡這個還沒有講清楚這個等一下就是馬上要處理的所以我說程序問題嗎所以先請你把麥克風按掉我們等一下就會請議事人員跟大家解釋程序問題為什麼要麥克風按掉好來我們先讓齊會表決不討論要調查說不清楚要調查什麼然後主席不爽就消人家的陰這是什麼調查委員會不好意思啦我們不是要委員我們一開始是"},{"start":7242.126,"end":7260.491,"text":"你昨天根本不在我們討論了多久啊吳思耀委員一直以三三來齊你三三來齊的時候前面的委員的答案前面委員的討論你通通都沒有參與所以你們沒有必要在這邊進行咆哮所以吳思耀委員都選擇了委員沒有必要在這邊進行咆哮"},{"start":7270.314,"end":7278.866,"text":"我不是王國昌跑去直播喔王國昌只會山山來遲跑去直播喔你完全不尊重每一個參與的委員第二天都不說明市民委員你為什麼不說明"},{"start":7287.617,"end":7293.543,"text":"你要調查哪一間你要調查哪一間提案的事件那每一年每一個月每一季都好那哪一間你認為有問題你要有調遞你認為哪一間的投資有問題"},{"start":7305.414,"end":7328.357,"text":"依照本調查委員會調閱所列的相關文件資料來提供給本委員會接下來有關針對調查委員會查閱注意事項請議事委員簽讀這有沒有過棒的行使我們的調查權限啊調查委員會查閱注意事項考量本會工作人員之人力配置相關文件資料與調查期限"},{"start":7329.478,"end":7338.023,"text":"那可以預告這個調查委員會未來不需要實施調查直接表決只要黃國昌認為哪一家有問題表決決定就好了如此而已"},{"start":7356.503,"end":7381.37,"text":"請問在場委員有無意見沒有我要先跟在場委員報告一下就是說因為查閱的時間如果按照以前的慣例應該是禮拜一到禮拜五上午上班然後到下午下班為止但是我們也體恤到我們議事人員的辛勞我之前有請教過他們的意見所以在調閱的時間上我們目前"},{"start":7382.35,"end":7399.101,"text":"就是只有禮拜一跟禮拜四上午九點到下午五點陳列在群閑樓的502會議室那至於說禮拜二禮拜三禮拜五委員們如果希望二三五來看的話那可能就麻煩委員們事先一天"},{"start":7400.442,"end":7425.459,"text":"先跟我們的議事同仁這邊做個通知讓我們的議事同仁他們時間好調度那因為這個調查委員會我們調查的時間跟以前的調閱小組相對而言是比較限縮但是也要體恤我們議事人員的辛勞跟工作的調度再請各位委員能夠量查那非常感謝各位委員也都同意了這個調查委員會查閱的注意事項"},{"start":7427.065,"end":7445.81,"text":"那是不是各位委員都已經同意同意那最後那個主席要宣告一下就針對我們所發函給國發會跟國發基金調查委員會請他們提供的文件跟資料這一件事情那我們的時間上面我們也不要讓"},{"start":7446.71,"end":7462.146,"text":"好像有一些委員不明就裡的指控我們要給國發會或國發基金的同仁過重的工作負擔大家都不能過年有的時候在這邊不按照議事規則來發言其實已經很不可取了"},{"start":7463.087,"end":7489.31,"text":"那如果有一些昧於事實的指控那我當然也是不會輕易的就這樣子接受那我想說時間上面因為其實客觀的範圍市民委員等人的提案已經很清楚了就34家我自己過去也有看過其中一家東西的經驗那讓他們準備上面是不是給他們一個月的時間也比較能夠充裕因為我們接下來"},{"start":7490.731,"end":7516.078,"text":"這個調查委員會我們當初成立的時候就是會延續到下個會期嘛那給一個月的時間讓我們國發會國發基金的同仁可以充分的做準備那等他們提供了以後那各位委員年後過完新春也可以來看一看這些資料那我們繼續的工作那下個會期的時候就真槍實彈的進入我們所調閱的資料是不是進一步的"},{"start":7516.758,"end":7541.749,"text":"還要再請他們提供資料甚至進一步的要求國發會、國發基金或是相關的政府官員來出席本調查委員會我想這是我們下一次開會的時候的正式的議程以上針對今天會議的內容跟大家做這樣子的說明最後請問各位委員還有沒有什麼其他的意見"},{"start":7543.902,"end":7548.085,"text":"沒有 那本日的議程就處理到此完畢謝謝各位 散會"},{"start":7577.522,"end":7578.727,"text":"私下的兵和物是幹嘛的謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}