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二一一"},{"start":2263.343,"end":2289.89,"text":"九千三百九十万九千三百九十万九千元照列本项通货决议三项第九项国家人权博物馆四一二千零七十五万九千元照列本项通货决议三项第十项国立台湾历史博物馆三一一千七百二十三万八千元照列本项通货决议一项第十一项国立台湾文学院二一六千二百八十六万七千元照列本项通货决议五项二一一百一四年度专注总议策案有关文化博物主管"},{"start":2290.49,"end":2317.824,"text":"國立文化機構作業基金附屬單位預算案審查完略審查結果如下國立文化機構作業基金專案通過決議四項文化發展基金專案通過通過決議五項自一百一四年度行政法人國家表演藝術中心預算案審查完略凝聚審查報告提報院會不許介入黨員協商願意討論時有萬召集委員美齡補充說明審查結果如下國家表演藝術中心一百一四年度預算書案"},{"start":2318.764,"end":2325.71,"text":"除業務總收入原列3310448000元增列500萬元改列為3315448000元本期短處原列2114336000元減列500萬元改列為219336000元外給予均專案通過通過決議六項為114年度行政法人文化內容策進院"},{"start":2342.423,"end":2364.289,"text":"審查完略 凝聚審查報告提報議案不需交由黨團協商因為討論時由萬召集委員美琳補充說明審查結果如下文化內容策進院一百一四年度預算書案照案通過通過決議十一項六一百一四年度行政法人國家電影集視廳文化中心預算人審查完略凝聚審查報告提報議案不需交由"},{"start":2365.589,"end":2390.459,"text":"黨團協商議會討論時由萬昭級委員美玲補充說明審查結果如下國家電影集視聽文化中心一百一四年度預算書案主要業務總收入延列三億九千八百一十七萬二千元增列一百萬元改列為三億九千九百一十七萬二千元本期短數延列四千五百三十九萬七千元減列一百萬元改列為四千四百三十九萬七千元及與軍招案通過"},{"start":2391.559,"end":2405.795,"text":"通過決議三項 七一隊委員要質詢要求提供相關資料 勿違及答覆不分請相關機關借書與書面答覆八 在不影響文藝前提下 授權一時人員因114年度中央政府總議院三案審查報告與黨團協商之犯例處理"},{"start":2407.777,"end":2423.614,"text":"9.114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部及所屬單位預算案國立文化機構作業基金附屬單位預算案文化發展基金附屬單位預算案行政法人國家表演術中心文化內容測鏡院國家電影及視聽文化中心預算案全部審查完據"},{"start":2424.916,"end":2447.991,"text":"10.本会主审中华民国114年度中政府总预算案公寓预算及非营业基金预算部分均已审查完据有关证识别岁数预算随同以上机关别审查结果调整凝聚审查报告含附财政委员会审查结果需交由党团协商议会讨论时由万昭及委员美林补充说明宣布完毕"},{"start":2458.192,"end":2475.085,"text":"各位委員 因為范雲召委有點受傷 現在去擦藥 所以由我先暫停一下首先請教各位委員 上次會議事錄有錯誤或遺漏之處"},{"start":2476.724,"end":2495.604,"text":"若沒有好那我們議事錄確定那我們今天的議程是繼續審查不依依止保存條例草案相關的修正草案總共有12案第一繼續審查行政院函請審議不依依止保存條例草案"},{"start":2497.096,"end":2512.874,"text":"第二继续审查委员范芸等17人拟据不宜遗址保存条例草案第三继续审查委员郭天才等18人拟据不宜遗址保存条例草案"},{"start":2513.755,"end":2542.177,"text":"第四 繼續審查委員林益錦等27人擬拒不義遺址保存條例草案第五 繼續審查委員蔡易瑜等18人擬拒不義遺址保存條例草案第六 繼續審查委員吳佩義等24人擬拒不義遺址保存條例草案第七 繼續審查委員黃婕等18人擬拒人權紀念長址保存條例草案"},{"start":2544.479,"end":2552.141,"text":"8.審查委員郭玉琴等17人米據不依依止保存條例草案9."},{"start":2552.141,"end":2559.124,"text":"審查委員陳培宇等18人米據不依依止保存條例草案10."},{"start":2559.124,"end":2565.667,"text":"審查委員林坤成等19人米據不依依止保存條例草案11."},{"start":2565.667,"end":2570.789,"text":"審查委員張雅玲等23人米據不依依止保存及教育推廣"},{"start":2571.929,"end":2574.632,"text":"第十二案未獲議事處來函則不予審查進行逐條審查"},{"start":2591.653,"end":2617.583,"text":"本案已於113年10月30號詢答完畢新增委員郭玉琴等五個提案版本不再進行詢答並入本次共同審查好那我們先來進行提案說明首先先請范雲委員"},{"start":2626.072,"end":2641.888,"text":"好谢谢以井代主席那转型正义一直是我担任立委的核心关怀不会一直保存也是其中重要的一环那我是立院上一届第一个提出版本的立委我的版本有三大特色第一个特色是"},{"start":2642.408,"end":2662.707,"text":"除了保存不移植也要推动转型正义的教育第二个是保障多元族群的参与涉及原民个案我希望能够另外增加领选的代表第三个是如果因为重大灾害需要紧急修复所有者使用者管理人都应该要提报抢修计划"},{"start":2663.648,"end":2677.424,"text":"轉型正義的目的是一個社會由威權過渡到民主時期後要求國家對大規模侵害人權的事件進行平復和反省而不一致就是國家威權侵害人權的地點"},{"start":2678.285,"end":2696.184,"text":"這些地方正面臨破壞甚至永遠無法修復的困境所以我們急需要一個母法作為比較細緻的法源依據那文化部才能夠依據這樣子的一個母法進行對這些遺址的妥善保存"},{"start":2696.844,"end":2719.979,"text":"沒有記憶就沒有真相也不會有復原和爭議我呼籲我們所有的跨黨派委員不要再企圖操弄威權時期的定義淡化自己的不義那當然我想我們本條例很多人關心原住民族在國民黨威權統治時期受侵害的歷史場景那其他時期的歷史爭議長指在國民黨威權統治時期"},{"start":2724.822,"end":2748.405,"text":"當然一定能夠在這個法當中保存所以其他時期的歷史正義長治已經有文資法底下的相關法規可以保護根本條例並不衝突所以我也要再重申轉型正義不分黨派呼籲朝野一起推動立法保存不移植那我這邊準備了一個我今年到"},{"start":2749.497,"end":2753.14,"text":"那我給大家很簡單的看一下幾秒鐘的影像可以看到這個館他們花多少心力做轉型正義"},{"start":2776.193,"end":2800.027,"text":"這牆上都是受難者的照片下面則是他的一個重要的傷害事件的圖片再往下 請幫忙放一下還有幾張照片這是他入場的地方 這樣各位可以看到他的規模還有其他照片嗎?"},{"start":2801.575,"end":2824.789,"text":"那另外我想在那裡你可以看到就是每位受難者我們只要按一個鍵那他的後代或者是我們其他人都能夠知道當事人的生平故事因為對方不是只是一個受害者他是有活生生有血有肉的人那我用這個影像是要讓大家知道其實智利跟我們一樣他是新興民主國家"},{"start":2825.229,"end":2846.274,"text":"发生这些事情的有些时间甚至比台湾还晚那他的GDP也不如台湾可是当这样一个国家都花这么大的规模做转型正义的话那我们真的需要就是这样的一个母法能够让我们更多的心力放在不一致的保存也能让记忆那让下一代子孙都能知道以上谢谢"},{"start":2857.293,"end":2884.606,"text":"那我先介紹一下在場委員待會請林議警委員做提案說明林議警委員柯之恩委員萬美玲委員林倩琦委員郭育晴委員葉元芝委員陳秀寶委員"},{"start":2886.858,"end":2915.425,"text":"張雅玲委員那個原住民那個誰鄭天才委員高金素美委員洪孟台委員在場我們介紹現場的官員文化部的部長李遠文化部的政務次長王石思原住民組委員會教育文化組專門委員馬樂福樂福杜坦利茂"},{"start":2917.659,"end":2938.476,"text":"教育部學生事務及特殊教育司副司長許家倩國家發展委員會檔案管理局組長陸文玉內政部民政司副司長劉立芳內政部警政署後勤組副組長黃維銘內政部國土署都紀組副組長廖建順"},{"start":2940.56,"end":2955.5,"text":"法務部參事汪南君行政院人權及轉型正義處處長賴俊照好 謝謝好 而且因為剛剛那個我們還沒有介紹到在場委員再來請我們林議警委員做提案說明"},{"start":2963.579,"end":2980.278,"text":"謝主席 各位同仁轉型正義不是特定政黨的議題積極面對國家人權曾經造成的重大傷害是跨黨派立委都應該承擔的責任也是面對歷史與民主最基本的尊重"},{"start":2981.079,"end":3002.049,"text":"去年10月30日我們針對不以一指保存條例展開立法詢答但是國民黨的委員卻接連發言宣稱不以一指的認定不該僅限於1945年到1992年間的威權統治時期應往前追溯到清帝國、日本等政權的統治"},{"start":3003.53,"end":3018.733,"text":"台灣歷經連續的殖民這是歷史的事實殖民創傷必須被修復這也是被肯定的但是轉型正義處理的並不是殖民問題而是國家的人權侵害與暴力"},{"start":3019.514,"end":3027.86,"text":"清帝國是我們的國家嗎?日本是我們的國家嗎?中華民國才是至今統治這塊土地的政權國家的不法與暴力當然要針對中華民國的威權統治做檢討檢討國家暴力和檢討過去的殖民政權是兩回事必須被分開處理"},{"start":3042.389,"end":3068.36,"text":"再者 每一個時期有每一個時期的獨特性不同暴力的形式的檢討與療癒的方式各不相同如大雜匯般不明就裡的將各時期的人權侵害一併納入不以一止保存條例不但對歷史極度不負責任而且破壞轉型正義工作的推進不利於對至今統治台灣的中華民國國家暴力作出檢討"},{"start":3069.62,"end":3084.167,"text":"今天我們有機會審查不義遺址保存條例背後是長年的倡議研究與論述跟很多行政工作的累積建立在這樣深厚的基礎上才能夠負責任地提出這部法"},{"start":3084.847,"end":3102.744,"text":"至於部分委員提到的日本親帝國對人權的迫害一方面本質上與中華民國的國家不法不同另一方面更應當經過研究與論述的累積而不是活輪吞找不分青紅皂白的就要全部塞進不以一止保存條例當中"},{"start":3104.145,"end":3117.057,"text":"最後還是請我們黨的同仁正視中華民國的歷史錯誤而不是到現在還在跟其他的殖民者比爛企圖用其他殖民者的暴行沖淡中華民國的暴行以上"},{"start":3120.9,"end":3148.01,"text":"謝謝林一錦委員那我們現在審查不易移植保存條例草案相關修正草案進行逐條審查請議事院宣讀條文內容並進行討論與協商討論時如有新增還有對不對抱歉那個沒有就是願意的人講一下因為剛剛抱歉抱歉我的錯那鄭天才委員是不是要做提案說明抱歉因為我剛剛只有聽到林一錦委員抱歉"},{"start":3162.959,"end":3188.806,"text":"主席 各位委員 部長 還有文化部的所有的官員我本來沒有想要提案說明本來想說早一點審查 早一點完成但是既然前面兩位 包括召委包括剛才提案說明的委員特別特別特別地強調第一個 說原住民族在台灣這個時"},{"start":3190.68,"end":3205.244,"text":"在這個國土上之前的不義遺址都不是不義遺址說是文化資產保存法就可以去仔細看文化資產保存法怎麼會是文化資產呢不義遺址就是不義遺址啊第二怎麼會說只有中華民國之後呢"},{"start":3219.81,"end":3231.892,"text":"中華民國之前台灣的原住民族在這塊土地上所受到任何一個統治者的侵害這不是侵害嗎這不是不義遺址嗎還有切割怎麼會這樣子切割非常非常的"},{"start":3250.452,"end":3251.712,"text":"難以接受這樣還能審嗎我本來希望很快的審查通過有這麼困難嗎把清朝時候的不義遺址列入進去把日據時代的不義遺址就怎麼樣了嗎就知愛難惜了嗎就要復義了嗎莫名其妙"},{"start":3283.68,"end":3286.441,"text":"把台灣的原住民族放在哪裡我們的痛你們可以知道嗎從斯卡羅事件台灣的原住民族跟美國人打仗接下來牡丹社事件台灣的原住民族為了保護台灣跟日本人打仗"},{"start":3313.932,"end":3335.946,"text":"這個都不叫轉型正義這些都不叫不義遺址一開始為什麼要起這個衝突啊去年的事情每個人 每個委員 諮詢有每個委員的諮詢發言的"},{"start":3340.277,"end":3345.419,"text":"潛力我尊重但是今天是開始審查條文了我們可以到威權統治還是極權統治還是要用什麼我們可以討論嘛怎麼會一開始就去責怪我們的條文呢我的條文也是去年就提了不是今年提的"},{"start":3368.666,"end":3384.895,"text":"所以我希望大家互相尊重原住民族在這塊土地上保護台灣從來都是第一個 以上 謝謝"},{"start":3388.948,"end":3399.413,"text":"謝謝鄭天才委員再來因為高金素美委員的版本沒有獲到議事處來函所以沒有審查但是他已經有提出所以我們讓他也說明一下"},{"start":3408.924,"end":3430.141,"text":"謝謝各位剛剛聽到有一些提案委員的發言其實我有一些心裡面的感觸尤其聽到鄭天才委員的發言我更感到難過大家如果回想起來在前一屆民進黨就欠原住民一個道歉跟一個公道"},{"start":3432.091,"end":3448.076,"text":"當時在立法院的時候我們談轉型正義條例的時候當時在野黨的委員人數少很多我印象非常的深刻在委員會討論轉型正義條例的時候段怡康委員"},{"start":3450.26,"end":3478.515,"text":"還有我們行政院版本把原住民的轉型正義也切割了時間依然是從國民政府來到之前當時我提的轉型正義條例一樣時間點應該是在1895年就是日本殖民政權殖民台灣的時候大家看一下這本書這叫《還我祖靈》"},{"start":3480.003,"end":3494.897,"text":"孟楷手上也有一本書我今天特別帶來那是1930年日據的軍政府如何的對台灣的主人原住民進行三光政策"},{"start":3496.348,"end":3517.36,"text":"我們不僅僅是保衛和為了這塊土地用我們的頭大家看這張照片這個不是劇照這個不是斯卡羅的我們文化部拍的劇照這個是日本隨軍團的攝照師為了要回去"},{"start":3519.037,"end":3536.009,"text":"領他們的戰功 而隨軍拍攝下來的照片這個部分已經由我們的中研院的老師把它整理出非常多的歷史的照片這是一個泰雅族人 也是我的祖先"},{"start":3541.124,"end":3550.749,"text":"在佳陽部落因為要捍衛我們的土地而被日本的軍人用一把非常鋒利的武士刀現場砍斷了我們的頭"},{"start":3556.929,"end":3580.769,"text":"這個難道不是轉型正義而今天我們要談的不易已止我很遺憾我的版本呢也在這個大院的時候被否決掉但是我今天依然提了修正動議我要來談的就是什麼為了反省台灣歷史不同時期統治者為了鞏固"},{"start":3581.926,"end":3600.493,"text":"所謂對人權或族群的侵害事件然後要彰顯它發生的歷史價值以及轉型正義的意義促進多元保存文化要制定這個條例這個條例不僅僅是人權它還有土地權"},{"start":3602.199,"end":3629.873,"text":"待會每一條在談到的時候尤其所謂的不義遺址怎麼可以又切割原住民族怎麼又可以切割台灣的主人原住民族的土地被這些日本政權不義所掠奪的土地呢我感到不可思議原來你們的轉型正義的價值人權的價值只停留在中華民國啊"},{"start":3631.414,"end":3644.946,"text":"而民進黨政府 小英總統跟原住民族道歉 跟原住民族要和解但是你們在法律案上面卻不支持原住民族提的時間點這叫什麼正義 這叫什麼不義以止"},{"start":3651.372,"end":3656.215,"text":"所以今天我們站在這裡在審這個條例的時候審法案的時候請大家不要切割原住民族的人權土地正義以及我們的轉型正義謝謝大家我的修正綜藝的版本應該也已經引到大家的手上了待會竹條的時候我還會再繼續發言"},{"start":3673.485,"end":3684.501,"text":"如果大家有興趣媒體們有興趣可以看一下我今天帶來的兩本書一本在侯孟凱委員的手上一本在我的手上這裡面就是血跡斑斑的歷史以上 謝謝好"},{"start":3689.757,"end":3699.8,"text":"謝謝高金素美委員那我們現在審查不議一致保存條例草案相關修正草案進行逐條審查請議事員宣讀條文內容並進行討論與協商討論時如有新增修正動議請議事員一併宣讀我就下去了"},{"start":3713.706,"end":3736.879,"text":"新增院凡嫌審議不依依之保存條例草案委員范玲等十七人凝聚不依依之保存條例草案委員鄭天才等十八人凝聚不依依之保存條例草案委員林英檢調二七人凝聚不依依之保存條例草案委員蔡易宜等十八人凝聚不依依之保存條例草案委員吳佩玉等十二四人凝聚不依依之保存條例草案"},{"start":3737.398,"end":3738.238,"text":"好待会就不再念了好"},{"start":3753.705,"end":3779.793,"text":"我們從那個名稱開始總共目前有行政院版、范雲等版、鄭天才等版、林一景等版、蔡宇等版、吳佩儀等版、黃婕等版、郭玉琴等版、陳培玉等版、李坤臣等版、張雅玲等版那總共有11個版本那以下我就不再重複有哪些版本了那我們就先從名稱開始那個是柯真委員要發言"},{"start":3781.987,"end":3804.805,"text":"我想从这个名称开始应该会非常多人有意见那我想我们应该先从正名开始因为呢不光是我们还有包括立法院的法治局跟监委都认为不义这个名词听起来是非常负面的而且容易造成反弹而且讲到遗址根据国语词典的定义通常认为是考古学家研究之地"},{"start":3805.445,"end":3830.035,"text":"所以我很直接的建議改成人權事件紀念場域保存條例我覺得這個部分比較是一般大家可以接受的而且我那時候在質詢我們小野部長的時候我記得部長說這個可以再做討論那我覺得面對歷史的真相的確大家都需要面對但是我覺得不應該一開始就在名稱上引起反彈而且監察院曾經在報告中寫說"},{"start":3831.175,"end":3858.346,"text":"就人權侵害事件發生地進行始機點的調查與清查當然是文化部之後就把它變成不義遺址對不起這是文化部自己寫的叫不義遺址雖然這不是在小野部長任內但是文化部自己把它變成不義遺址這是文化部發明的而且我覺得以小野部長的卓越的文字能力是否應該可以考慮改變一個更妥善的字眼"},{"start":3858.666,"end":3885.277,"text":"这个部长这是发挥你的文字的最好的时间而且世界各地没有人用不义这两个字而且在面对很多真相的时候也没有人用这样的一个名词那我还是要强调很多国家在使用转型正义这一词上就会非常遇到很大的困难那经纬范迅日也认同社会的理解是必须要从和解开始有正义的一方必定有不正义的另外一方面"},{"start":3886.017,"end":3913.516,"text":"與其使用不義這個名詞我還是強烈認為人權歷史場域實在是一個更為妥善的一個中性字眼謝謝好 謝謝柯之恩委員那在這邊羅廷維委員好 我想剛剛柯之恩委員的部分我們也非常的認同那基本上大家網路上搜尋一下有人權博物館也有人權委員會但我們更希望在這個部分上能夠用人權事件紀念場域這個部分我們一起來響應謝謝"},{"start":3916.4,"end":3936.801,"text":"那這個部分是那個張雅琳委員我想因為其實不一一指雖然之前大家剛有提到很多不同的討論但是這個今天的重點其實在這個脈絡上它其實是放在轉型正義指的是從一個威權的體制轉到民主的政體"},{"start":3938.242,"end":3961.467,"text":"那其實在國際上面有非常多的國家都有同樣的事件那大家也都是用injustice就是不義這兩個字所以呢我想這是世界上通行的一個方式那過去我們在相關的法例不管是促短條例等等也好都是使用這樣子的一個名字因為它就是要反映這個土地上面曾經發生的不義事件"},{"start":3962.327,"end":3977.936,"text":"政府這些威權政府對人民所做的不法行為在我們的現代價值觀是必須被否定的所以我們必須要去陳述才能夠去彰顯我們對過去的威權有所反省我們才能夠去確保過去的威權在反省之後不會再發生謝謝"},{"start":3981.072,"end":4000.564,"text":"好 謝謝張雅琳委員再來哪位委員針對名稱要說明或發表意見林建啟委員各位委員 大家好對於名稱 我也是呼應剛才柯委員的建議"},{"start":4001.805,"end":4026.489,"text":"因為根據聯合國的宣言我們在這個概念下其實在人類不至於人類因為被壓迫而停而走險來面對暴政或者是壓迫進行反叛然後有必要用人權受法治的保護那鑑於這樣一個原因我們來設定各個不同族群在"},{"start":4026.929,"end":4050.991,"text":"面對被壓迫的這樣歷史的階段當中的事件我想這個相對是比較中性的因為當我們談不義那你這個不義究竟是誰的不義可能整個討論就很難進入很公允或相對客觀的一個討論當中所以這個是我的一個建議謝謝好 謝謝那張雅琳委員"},{"start":4052.59,"end":4072.546,"text":"因為我想我們講人權的話那就會談得非常的空泛因為很多人權女權不同種族的不同性別的不同年紀的人權或是移工的人權都可能會被包含在這個非常大的架構之下那這個我們要講的這次的重點其實是在不義的部分是威權體制轉型到民主政權的這個過程"},{"start":4074.327,"end":4090.308,"text":"這段時間如果在人權的架構之下它就會完全被稀釋掉所以我覺得這個還是要去堅持它是一個不義遺址的部分而且因為這些地方它的確是發生了一些不義的事件我們今天才去做相關的清點跟盤查嘛好 謝謝"},{"start":4091.903,"end":4107.059,"text":"好那因為這個部分行政院有提案是不是文化部看哪位是次長嗎說明一下就是說你們的版本好嗎名稱的部分謝謝所有委員的說明是這樣文化部還是做行政院的院版做一個說明"},{"start":4108.52,"end":4122.787,"text":"當初這個名字是從當時的處長會之後那是針對所謂負面歷史的價值來做定義所以才會有所謂不義遺址所以Injustice是當時所謂不義遺址名稱的來源"},{"start":4123.507,"end":4140.253,"text":"那在這件事上要特別說明的是不義已止的這個不義其實它不是用來做控訴的不義已止的不義指的是政權的自我反省也就是說在台灣這個政權上它不能再犯過去同樣的錯不管未來執政者是誰"},{"start":4141.133,"end":4155.985,"text":"所以他並沒有針對任何特定的政黨或特定的對象而是在談說作為一個民主自由的憲政體制不可以犯同樣的錯誤所以才會有不義遺址那第二個當然是說如果叫做人權紀念長旨"},{"start":4156.966,"end":4180.532,"text":"它會有正向跟負向全部都會列在裡面就有些人是為了人權犧牲有些人是為了人權被侵害那博弈遺址的立法裡面呢講的很特定的是指侵害人權的發生地也就是說它有特定指的是負向歷史的這個意義在所以我們還是希望能夠維持原版的名稱以上說明"},{"start":4181.832,"end":4182.672,"text":"教育推廣"},{"start":4202.208,"end":4225.761,"text":"最主要是說我希望我們的不義遺址並不是只是保存而已我們應該要有更積極的一些行為去教育我們才能去推廣過去因為這些國家不法的行為跟威權的歷史讓我們的每一個人還有我們的孩子知道我們國家的民主從何而來為何而來所以這部分我希望我的教育推廣的這個名詞呢也可以被保留在這個法案名稱裡面謝謝"},{"start":4228.963,"end":4256.018,"text":"好 那針對這個教育推廣的部分因為剛剛文化部王字導要沒有說明你可不可以也再說明一下謝謝委員的指教 我說明一下這個因為對於整體不管是不義遺址或者是轉型爭議或者是人權教育是所有部會都要擔任的責任那像以不義遺址跟轉型爭議來說不管是在文化部"},{"start":4256.658,"end":4271.431,"text":"或者是教育部衛福部國防部法務部都有各自的教育推廣的責任所以我會建議把這個項目放在條文中即可我們可以做教育推廣但在名稱上希望還是可以維持原版名稱"},{"start":4273.163,"end":4297.43,"text":"所以我想確認一下因為剛剛有提到說在後續的條文因為其實我也有提到教育推廣所以這個部分文化部是可以支持的嗎後續的部分後續的條文可以在我們的任務上面把教育推廣放進去好 了解 謝謝所以張雅玲委員針對教育推廣這部分你就不堅持放在名稱是不是好"},{"start":4297.93,"end":4326.683,"text":"那如果這樣子的話其實我們就有兩種意見嘛齁我剛剛算了一下因為有提案的版本裡面有九個都是不移植的那人權這邊有提案的其實只有黃婕委員一人那我昨天好像聽到是張亞玲委員說黃婕委員她其實她可以跟大家就是可以支持院版的不移植那其他因為支持希望放人權的委員好像都沒有提案版本那我們是不是尊重有提案的是以不移植為主好不好"},{"start":4326.983,"end":4341.67,"text":"因為現在後面那個時期大家還可以在後面再爭論那個葛如君委員謝謝昭偉我覺得這個題目的名稱應該還是要多加審慎的來研議跟使用"},{"start":4342.915,"end":4361.505,"text":"因為你在裡面這個威權統治所以把威權統治時期剛剛有委員發言威權統治時期我們要來反省政權的反省這個部會的發言也是如此那所以才把它叫做不義那威權統治的時期是民國34年到81年之間"},{"start":4364.506,"end":4388.204,"text":"戒嚴也是發生在這個時候嘛 對吧 趙薇也點頭了所以我們應該要來反省 我們也不應該要回到過去那我想要請教相關的部會剛剛有做這個定義的同仁 次長那網路上關於戒嚴的這種挺戒嚴的言論不管是政黨"},{"start":4390.673,"end":4408.439,"text":"黨團或者是民眾我們能不能說他們是不義發言如果我們可以同意有這樣的共識我認為這個我們當然是有共識的空間如果沒有那這就是選擇性的文字定義這是一種雙標的文字定義所以我的問題很清楚"},{"start":4409.522,"end":4428.715,"text":"我們如果網路上有人在講威權時代的言論想要做威權時代的復辟想要挺戒嚴這是不是不義發言我們可不可以這樣界定請教次長或者其他的委員同仁或請教召委這個是我們的意見 謝謝是不是 次長是不是回應一下"},{"start":4431.935,"end":4457.284,"text":"這位委員說明喔第一個就是戒嚴對於民主憲政來說當然是對民主憲政的一個威脅那至於在網路上去主張我想那現在在台灣的民主政體裡面屬於言論自由的範圍那所以他是不是不意就由我來這邊做定義以上好那因為好那個葛國軍委員這個我"},{"start":4458.84,"end":4482.078,"text":"我不批評這個回應但是網路有言論的自由我們在表示說這個應該要保留一個中性的空間我們不應該有法條的定義的名稱來為這段時間做了一個名稱的定義但是我們卻又不用這樣的定義來套用到其他人的發言"},{"start":4483.261,"end":4509.319,"text":"這個我們覺得這是一個社會會非常錯亂沒有辦法理解為什麼我們不會去講說這樣子的戒嚴挺戒嚴的言論是不義言論不義發言或不義的討論但是我們自己行政院送來的版本在討論威權時期的法制在討論威權時期的戒嚴我們卻給他扣上不義的帽子"},{"start":4511.397,"end":4527.539,"text":"我們挺言論的自由言論的空間可是我們竟然在立法院由行政院送來的法條是縮小了言論的空間甚至去做自我定義這樣子是我們在定法律的做法嗎"},{"start":4530.126,"end":4554.631,"text":"那個我想我們還是回來針對那個名稱那我剛剛就是覺得因為行政院版是這樣然後那個委員的版本裡面幾乎都是提不以一指的那是不是我們這個人權的相關說明可以列入那個就是立法說明裡面讓這些意見可以被接受然後我們就直接進入第一條好不好"},{"start":4555.391,"end":4582.31,"text":"因為我覺得主席做這樣的才是因為待會我們還可以繼續爭論那個時期的部分就第一條跟第三條的部分那個林建啟委員我想請教一下那個次長你們在做這個所謂不義遺址名稱的時候那請問全世界的一些不義遺址您這邊有一些範例嗎那這樣好了我直接提議這個名稱做保留"},{"start":4584.393,"end":4585.914,"text":"我們先進入第一條是不是我們就先請那個"},{"start":4607.155,"end":4634.88,"text":"除了剛剛是一個版本之外還有陳秀寶委員的版本 萬美玲委員版本還有林建啟委員的修正動議 三個那這部分我們是不是就先請文化部這裡也是次長先說明一下我們再進行讓大家發言好了先講一下好 那有哪位要發言 針對第一條好 陳秀寶委員先 然後鄭天才 萬美玲"},{"start":4637.816,"end":4663.128,"text":"謝謝主席我有向修正動議那在第一條的部分是關於我們的立法目的那以文化部這邊的部分它是說未反威權統治時期國家未達成鞏固威權統治之目的所謂侵害人權事件彰顯其發生地之歷史價值及轉型正義的意義促進多元保存活化制定特質"},{"start":4664.028,"end":4686.875,"text":"制定本條例那我的修正動議裡面我是在促進多元保存活化這後面加一句深化人權教育推廣其實不義遺址的保存很大一個重點是為了讓我們記得過去的歷史並且不要再重蹈覆轍那在威權統治的時期呢掌權者為了鞏固政權"},{"start":4687.435,"end":4707.669,"text":"不管是用高壓獨斷的方式來壓迫人民造成許多人留下了悲痛的記憶甚至付出慘痛的代價那隨著時代的變遷雖然許多不義遺址的原有建物已經改建但是在不義遺址上面發生過的事情是不應該被遺忘的也應該融入轉型正義人權教育來提醒我們民主得來不易"},{"start":4708.209,"end":4719.294,"text":"所以我認為說要在第一條這上面再加上深化人權教育推廣的部分讓我們的人民都可以知道台灣這段的歷史 以上我的第一條的條文"},{"start":4732.836,"end":4750.939,"text":"是寫為反省台灣歷史不同時期統治者為鞏固統治所謂對人權或族群之侵害事件這個部分我跟行政院的版本不一樣的地方"},{"start":4752.701,"end":4767.895,"text":"大家可以發表意見之後我認為還是要先保留因為這會涉及到這個第三條到底是要用威權統治時期然後這個時間這個部分然後因為我的第三條是寫極權統治時期"},{"start":4770.798,"end":4782.065,"text":"所以這個也不一樣所以這個都會相關聯所以為了這個節省時間大家可以先表示意見之後我建議這個也是先保留 以上謝謝"},{"start":4782.796,"end":4807.073,"text":"好 謝謝鄭天才委員 再來萬美玲委員好 謝謝 在這個第一條的部分我來說明一下我想不義遺址的保存條例是根據促進轉型正義條例而來的那麼在這個整個充滿正義的促轉會在111年5月退場之後有許多的業務都回到各部會去其中不義遺址保存的工作落在文化部的身上但是呢 我認為其實我們要反省或是面對所謂的威權的歷史"},{"start":4808.294,"end":4827.703,"text":"其实绝对是不应该只有狭隘的局促的在某一个时期的这个相关的人权侵害而且应该是要扩大到台湾历史不同时期的威权统治者对人权或者族群的一个侵害这样是比较完整的那么尤其其实我觉得要特别提到一下当然今天我们有好几位我们原民的委员在这里"},{"start":4828.443,"end":4844.485,"text":"那在日本在台灣半世紀殖民的威權的統治在日本對台灣統治的時期對台灣各族群的迫害不管是在1895年日本接收台灣主權在我們桃園平鎮發生的安平鎮之役屠殺了不滿的客家藝民"},{"start":4846.587,"end":4865.797,"text":"1913、1914泰鲁格事变日军屠杀拒绝臣服的泰鲁格族1896年云林大屠杀3万人惨遭日军的杀害1930年赛德克巴莱的电影里面的误射事件赛德克族各部落几乎要遭到灭族以及强征台湾慰安妇等等"},{"start":4866.317,"end":4894.893,"text":"我想這一些其實都是一些所謂的威權都是一些不義所以我在第一條的部分我把它念一下我把它修正動議是為反省台灣歷史不同時期統治者為達成鞏固威權統治所謂對人權或族群之侵害事件彰顯其發生地之歷史價值及轉型正義意義促進多元保存活化"},{"start":4895.433,"end":4897.78,"text":"特制定本條例那我希望改成這樣"},{"start":4901.221,"end":4924.158,"text":"謝謝萬美林委員再來我們請張雅琳委員好 第一條我的部分呢基本上現在院版是大致相同啦不過我還是強調就是說在倒數第二句的部分我強調了一個教育推廣啦就是說跟我剛剛的說明是一模一樣的我們應該要讓這些珍貴的歷史地點呢更有積極的意義讓它能夠走進我們的生活那就如同說剛剛在講這個不抑止轉型條例剛剛有委員發言說"},{"start":4929.055,"end":4956.477,"text":"為什麼我們這個針對網路上的這些戒嚴論我們不能講它是不易發言因為我想今天我們審查的主體還是剛剛也講審查的這個主體它是針對於國家而不是針對於個人啦所以我想這就代表了教育非常的重要我們才能夠讓大家更清楚的知道威權在對台灣的民主過去有多大的傷害那民主的重要性這樣 謝謝好 謝謝張雅玲委員再來林益菁委員"},{"start":4960.259,"end":4986.746,"text":"謝主席我這一條的條文我也呼應一下雅琳委員就是說我也是就是在促進多元保存活化後面有加上並積極提升教育意義因為事實上目前不管是國家人權博物館或台灣共生青年協會或者很多的社大的團體"},{"start":4987.606,"end":5010.953,"text":"有一直在辦理不義遺址的走讀的教育活動所以也希望說能將這個文字入法加強這個不義遺址保存活化的教育意義所以有加上那個積極提升教育意義那雅琳是教育推廣那意思是一樣的以上 請大家討論好 謝謝林怡君委員那針對這第一條 那葛如君委員"},{"start":5012.478,"end":5039.447,"text":"謝謝邵委那我想因為部長今天在現場我還是需要跟部長做一些詢問那首先第一點我想請教部長因為我們這個是教文委員會您今天也列席做這個不易以止保存條例的審查我想請教部長您覺得文化應該是要走兼容擴大的路線還是走壓制固化縮小的路線"},{"start":5040.799,"end":5064.201,"text":"我們剛剛已經提了 其實我是比較客氣啦我說是網友在講挺戒嚴的言論但顯然不只是網友那我們不願意我就想要請教部長如果有人或者有單位甚至有政黨的組織在挺戒嚴的言論這是不是不義言論這是不是不義發言"},{"start":5067.307,"end":5096.229,"text":"如果您覺得要走兼容擴大的路線要有言論的自由我們不應該把它扣這個帽子為什麼我們要為這些地點扣上這些帽子呢我覺得這是我的第一個問題部長請待會一定要回應喔第二點我想部長您是電影圈出身賽德克巴萊這部電影上映的時候有沒有觀賞過同為文化人我是阿宅但我也非常敬重文化"},{"start":5097.352,"end":5121.325,"text":"但是今天我看見文化部提出的版本如同剛剛都會委員所說的完全沒有對抗日先烈的尊敬甚至不把日據時期所發生的一些事件納入這個所謂的人權事件的遺址所承認的時期難道文化部不認為我們剛剛甚至也有執政黨的委員提到"},{"start":5122.683,"end":5149.373,"text":"關於侵害人權的事件其實是有非常多種類的這些東西都不需要去被列入來討論嗎我們為什麼是用縮小我們為什麼是用固化我們為什麼是用壓制的方式來討論這些地點跟時期呢那如果我們要更嚴格的定義我們可以把它叫做訓政威權啊"},{"start":5150.888,"end":5178.594,"text":"不然威權有很多種啊日治也發生了很多人權的事件也有非常多種類的威權啊所謂的不公不義第三件事情我一樣要問所謂的不公不義所謂的壓迫國家侵害人權的事件無時無刻都在發生剛剛次長也說了但這題我是問部長的那近日勞發署發生長官霸凌下屬導致下屬輕生的事件這是一種內在的權利"},{"start":5181.482,"end":5209.261,"text":"的霸凌的案件這也是用國家的公權力來侵害人權的事件啊如果要講國家侵害人權就不應該限縮在任何時期過去的發生的事件當然值得我們來討論現在發生的案件也更應該警惕所以本席認為整部法從第一條開始就是在縮小就是在固化就是在壓制部長您能不能回應一下謝謝"},{"start":5212.507,"end":5237.668,"text":"那個部長要回應嗎我逐一回答那個委員的詢問就是文化是不是兼容並蓄然後包容 OK 完全答對但是文化也有它的價值跟批判我們從過去到現在 各位剛剛從清朝日治到國民政府來"},{"start":5238.849,"end":5260.295,"text":"大家都在講一些被迫害的過程你就可以知道台灣人過得多麼辛苦了這一點就知道台灣人多麼辛苦現在還要面對中國的這個侵略台灣人一路走在歷史都是非常辛苦的但是剛剛一直提到文化文化兼容必須可是文化它有一個高度它有能力反省它有能力批判"},{"start":5261.115,"end":5279.505,"text":"我覺得我們今天在談這個條例的時候大家不要惡分法說好像我們民進黨是要故意用這個條例來固化跟控訴國民政府來台灣的我希望不要這樣想如果這個法令通過你為什麼不倒過來想是國民政府能夠自我反省"},{"start":5280.385,"end":5303.48,"text":"他能夠面對這關非常痛苦的事情我講的是促轉條例之下的這個威權時代不包括前面的時代是因為我們今天審的法案是來自促轉條例所轉型的東西我覺得一個政權能夠自我反省是非常重要的怎麼樣對 我要回答你"},{"start":5308.795,"end":5322.739,"text":"人群基本上在我們的定義上是非常進步的,比如兩性、移工、原住民、族群、同婚,它是非常進步的觀念為什麼轉型不易移植這麼重要,我講我自己的故事好了"},{"start":5324.366,"end":5352.896,"text":"我如果去馬場廳去經過那邊我一定會繞著馬場廳三圈因為我的舅舅就在那邊被槍決了我舅舅23歲被槍斃所以不義遺址對某些人來講是非常重要的我本來不想講得這麼沉重但是一路聽來我覺得作為台灣人真的蠻辛苦但是我們能不能夠抱著一個自我反省接受曾經發生的事實這件事情心平氣和的來討論今天的不義遺址保存條例以上"},{"start":5360.292,"end":5376.909,"text":"非常抱歉,我非常尊重以前的小夜,也就是現在的我們的部長部長,你有些某些言論,我沒有辦法贊同那我也想請你解釋一下,剛剛民進黨林英堅委員在提案說明的時候,他說"},{"start":5378.348,"end":5385.767,"text":"在這塊土地上其他國家所造成的不義行為不關我們的事我要請教部長還有請教民進黨"},{"start":5387.669,"end":5409.677,"text":"過去這塊土地上遭受到其他國家暴行對待的人是不是我們的人民今天我真的見識到了民進黨你們偉大的發明原來其他國家欺負我們的人民竟然可以說不關我們的事情所以你們切割所以你們有有有你剛提到帶他回去放回去聽你說這個是"},{"start":5410.757,"end":5426.206,"text":"那個清末跟日據時代不屬於我們國家我們國家叫中華民國你是這樣子說的所以我有感而發今天在這一條的時候我必須要提出我自己的看法還有我心裡面的難受第二個"},{"start":5427.387,"end":5449.427,"text":"至於部長剛剛的說明 部長 我很遺憾您是一個文化人 您居然也是要切割歷史第一條行政院的版本是說 為了反省台灣歷史不同時期統治者 為了鞏固統治所為對人權或族群的侵害事件"},{"start":5450.908,"end":5469.593,"text":"彰顯它發生地的歷史還有價值以及轉型正義的意義促進多元保存活化特制定本條例我有兩個部分想請教一下小野部長您剛剛說馬場兵是的 那是台灣的歷史傷痛"},{"start":5470.333,"end":5489.81,"text":"您剛剛又講到歷史轉型正義裡面沒有談到的你似乎在你今天不想談但是別忘了今天我曾天才委員還有外美林委員以及這個倩琦委員我們所提的時間點待會我們會一一談到所以您剛剛的大致的回答我遺憾我也難過身為文化人的您"},{"start":5498.237,"end":5514.228,"text":"您還停留在切割掉了這塊土地的主人的人權這塊土地應該要反省的不同時期的統治者的人權或族群的侵害事件如果"},{"start":5515.109,"end":5536.287,"text":"您可以繼續接受我的討論的話我相信待會我們在於第三條實質介入到這個時間點的部分我希望您也能夠接受雖然轉型正義條例的時候您不在這個位置上可是現在不會以致您就是文化部部長了"},{"start":5537.288,"end":5563.824,"text":"所以我希望您把您的視野把你的心打開而不是在某個政黨的思維底下而是要把時間點把它拉到在這塊土地上所共同的痛苦的記憶包括客家族群包括原住民族群這些是活生生活在還活在這塊土地上的人以上 謝謝好 再來是郭玉琴委員"},{"start":5568.991,"end":5576.016,"text":"我問一下就是活生生還活在這塊土地上的人也包含我的家屬我的長輩在228事件"},{"start":5578.522,"end":5606.335,"text":"我們講的這個不義遺址其實我們就是定義在228事件跟白色恐怖的一個時期就是1945年到1992年這個時期我再喚醒一下大家對這段歷史的一個記憶如果大家不願意去面對的話1947年當年的3月8號當7000名的國民黨的軍人登陸基隆之後還沒靠岸就已經先對岸上的所有穿著木屐的台灣人開始掃射"},{"start":5609.674,"end":5633.893,"text":"我只是喚醒大家的回憶喔好 那我想尊重我的發言可以嗎好 我們尊重那個郭玉琴發言有不同的發言待會再講好嗎好 當年的基隆港一片死屍參加讀書會甚至知識分子只要提到228就像現在在中國你提到六四天安門是一樣的一個經濟話題就會被槍斃"},{"start":5636.195,"end":5654.984,"text":"我想這個是我們在面對最近期的1945年中國國民黨他們來到台灣的威權統治那只要是被證實當時包含刑求審判刑刑的地方都被定義為不義於止injustice"},{"start":5655.464,"end":5680.058,"text":"所以在一般的國際我們用injustice來定義為什麼我們不能把這個叫做不義遺址硬要扯到清朝硬要扯到日本殖民時代那我們再往回推你要不要連唐代你要不要連好啊如果大家要這麼廣如果大家要這麼的無限上綱的話那我想這個請尊重我的發言好嗎可以嗎"},{"start":5684.636,"end":5704.775,"text":"可以嗎 可以尊重一下我的發言嗎可以尊重一下我的發言嗎我們在講轉型正義公民教育的融入非常的重要要讓大家知道我們晉級台灣在爭取民主自由的過程有多麼的艱辛包含現在在立法院的現在"},{"start":5706.577,"end":5725.967,"text":"大家都知道我們請大家尊重有不同的意見就舉手等一下發言請大家尊重發言的人中間先不要插話因為很多名團在看我們的直播拜託大家再來是葛如君下一個林怡瑾再來是洪孟楷謝謝我首先也是表達"},{"start":5727.512,"end":5752.947,"text":"在特定時期在威權時期的不義行為不義的行動的受害者我相信所有人都非常的難過我們也應該要討論我們應該要反省那如果沒有這段大家的這個努力的過程我想我們也不會有今天"},{"start":5754.082,"end":5778.68,"text":"像昭偉可以用民主的制度來召開這樣的討論所以我想這一點是我們應該都是有共識的那剛剛為什麼我現在要補充發言是因為剛剛我想部長沒有回答到我的問題就是定義一個行為行動用法條其實非常嚴肅的是它會影響社會"},{"start":5781.875,"end":5805.129,"text":"對於這些文字的理解跟觀感那我們現在是某種程度的限縮了我們在名稱上限縮我們在法條的細節裡頭限縮可是我們在解釋不義的時候我們又同意這跟人權有關人權有非常多種的侵犯的事件"},{"start":5807.079,"end":5829.791,"text":"那我們定義了威權的時期其中有戒嚴的這個狀態那我剛剛詢問部長的是如果有政治人物甚至是政府做挺戒嚴的發言我們能不能說他是不義發言這一點我想文化部部長您沒有回答所以我希望部長可以回答 謝謝好 謝謝葛無菌委員再來林益菁委員"},{"start":5835.302,"end":5864.472,"text":"待會兒都發言完之後 部長再回覆好 謝謝主席我先回應一下高金委員高金委員 你要修正你的發言因為我並沒有主張清帝國跟日本殖民帝國他們的迫害不是迫害我只是要說台灣歷經連續跟多重的殖民那每一個時期有每一個時期的獨特性那不同的暴力形式的檢討也各不相同"},{"start":5864.972,"end":5886.599,"text":"所以不應該是這樣好像大雜燴的這樣不明就裡的全部納入我的意思是這樣不是說他們的迫害不是迫害只是我強調是說現在中華民國確實是統治我們這塊土地的政權那所以我們現在要追究過去的不法跟暴力當然就是要對中華民國的威權統治做檢討好 以上好 謝謝林益錦委員再來請洪孟楷委員"},{"start":5894.814,"end":5917.183,"text":"各位委員第一次發言我們討論到所謂不管是不義遺疾藥或是我們柯之恩委員主張的人權紀念的相關場域條例重點在什麼第一條其實重點在於如果說我們要來拿核心精神跟價值的話第一條的重點就只有兩個字反省"},{"start":5918.567,"end":5937.843,"text":"重點是反省嘛反省什麼反省過去的錯誤反省的作為目的就是我們記取過去的錯誤記得人類曾經做過那麼愚蠢的事情並且不要再犯未來我們的後代子孫孫都不要再犯"},{"start":5938.703,"end":5958.648,"text":"我想那是當初我們在條例審查的時候我也直接跟部長來請教我就說觀今宜見古無古不曾經人類可以創造很輝煌的歷史跟價值人類可以創造很多的文化文明但是人類也很愚笨所以人類也做了很多的錯誤那我們現代人的"},{"start":5961.25,"end":5968.961,"text":"責任使命就是我們要記取過去的錯誤把它釐清之後不帶情緒的因為"},{"start":5970.311,"end":5997.291,"text":"實在話講當初的犯刑者已經不在人世了當初的被害者也不在人世了但是該予予的回覆我們要給予回覆該予予的譴責我們要給予譴責好但是重點在什麼重點在於是時間可以一刀切嗎有任何不義的事情不公不義人類的錯誤人類的愚蠢可以一刀切嗎我今年"},{"start":5998.547,"end":6025.449,"text":"一個時間點切下去民國34年以前犯的我們在今天討論的完全不討論到他即便他發生的是台灣的同胞即便受害是台灣的人民即便他生活的也是我們的祖先但是他所受的謀難所受的責難我們不理他即便這件事情血淋淋活生生的發生在台灣這塊土地上如同剛剛"},{"start":6026.874,"end":6050.894,"text":"高尖素美委員給我看這個非常珍貴的史料1930年我特別有感啊 為什麼我曾經當過嘉義市的文化局局長我知道1930年對於台灣平地上來講是一個多輝煌的一年如果沒有記錯的話陳承波先生那個時候如果沒有記錯的話"},{"start":6052.745,"end":6058.513,"text":"KANO那部電影KANO拿到日本甲子園第二名是1931年"},{"start":6060.956,"end":6086.041,"text":"所以當那個時候1930年1931年台灣曾經KANO台灣的棒球在日本甲子園拿到第二名還被拍成電影的時候同一時間在台灣這塊土地上是有原住民的朋友被屠殺被暴力殘害甚至裡面寫得很清楚他是以疑制疑的"},{"start":6087.304,"end":6099.815,"text":"手法日本是以移植的手法是驅動莫納努道的敵對部落來去攻擊莫納努道讓他們自相殘殺然後日軍再來做後面做接收所以"},{"start":6104.042,"end":6123.883,"text":"我覺得在第一點的一個部分我絕對支持反省反省才是重點如果我們這一輩的人連反省都不會的話那愧對於人所以大家今天也真的不用有任何的情緒我想每一個人的發言都是希望能夠針對自己所在乎的那一塊來去做反省"},{"start":6124.423,"end":6149.169,"text":"但重點在於是時間我看得出來民進黨的朋友還是延續的是促進轉型正義條例下來所以是民國34年到民國81年那我們其他在野黨的委員的主張其實我們沒有不同從促進轉型正義那個時候我們就有主張應該是要台灣這塊土地上從過去日據時代到"},{"start":6151.723,"end":6174.6,"text":"81年這邊都應該要納入包括我最重視的慰安婦的議題那只是講實在話第九屆在野黨人數不夠所以我們是因為表決表疏你們我們並不是我們沒有那個時候就沒有堅持說我們是要從日據時代就要放進來我們只是表決表疏了可是有沒有這些事情發生 有"},{"start":6175.831,"end":6199.037,"text":"那現在我沒有說要訴諸 直接說表決可是因為看起來分歧很大 很有爭議所以我的主張 我的堅持是依照我們的修正動議把反省台灣歷史不同時期統治者相關做的人權及族群的侵害事件來做這一個條例的時間範圍"},{"start":6201.4,"end":6223.459,"text":"這跟第三條是連動的所以我把它講得比較清楚一點如果說在時間點的任續上面大家沒有一個共識的話我建議是保留否則的話我們再吵下去可能沒有意義但是我肯定至少我們坐在這邊的每一位委員以及部長 次長 局長大家都對於反省這件事情我們是有一致的共識的以上 謝謝"},{"start":6225.239,"end":6239.979,"text":"好 那這題第一條這還有沒有哪位委員要發言的那因為這條我也有我的版本那榮友也發言一下那我想就是我這條我對定義因為我們現在想的是到底是要反省威權統治時期國家"},{"start":6242.262,"end":6265.181,"text":"還有譬如說鄭天才委員他的是為反省台灣歷史不同時期的統治者那我的為什麼會放在威權統治時期國家那第一個當然是因為原本的促轉條例的時間就是指這段時間那為什麼我支持促轉條例而是因為說我們現在如果要處理的是轉型正義那他講的就是從威權轉型到"},{"start":6267.242,"end":6289.685,"text":"民主的這個國家它對過去威權時期以國家系統性的力量迫害人民的部分進行反省代表這個民主國家是有反省力的那如果清朝或者日本後來在台灣轉型成民主國家那當然我們可以定義可是那是不同時期由不同的法源不同的地方來處理我非常的贊成"},{"start":6290.606,"end":6313.732,"text":"慰安婦的就是或者是戰爭性奴隸的他每次的議題我都有去也幫忙向文化部爭取相關的資源文化部也都有支持他有一個小小的紀念館那以我剛講智利為例智利當然也有原住民的議題有不同時期的殖民的議題他們國家也很重視可是當我看到的轉型這樣的博物館"},{"start":6314.192,"end":6334.625,"text":"他就是針對Pinochet這個威權民主的這段時期那個國家政治性的迫害人民甚至那個體育館都有留下一個大規模屠殺的時候有留下一個小小的紀念式我想我們現在講的是這個部分所以如果有不同的法要有一個婦女人權就是紀念空間或者是"},{"start":6335.666,"end":6361.303,"text":"我都很支持可是應該是不同的法我們現在針對的就是政治學者定義的轉型正義就是威權國家轉型到民主化對之前的國家系統性的侵害人民所以清朝當時沒有變成民主那日本這個殖民我都支持我們反省可是是不同的法源而且其實文化部或相關的部會都有在努力"},{"start":6362.043,"end":6377.149,"text":"好 那支持我的發言那再來剛剛是有叫請文化部這邊有要再回應嗎還是我們就第一條就保留因為我想這個部分那個吳佩儀委員還沒發言我們先給吳佩儀委員她這條還沒發言她有版本 OK"},{"start":6378.973,"end":6404.417,"text":"好 謝謝教委我想因為剛剛今天的這個不一直保存條例我也有提案也有一個版本那剛剛聽到前面的幾位委員的發言其實從第一條開始就已經喊出了暴流那我其實感受到的是我們今天在場的委員之間是高度的沒有共識那例如剛剛一直在討論這個年代的問題我是認為因為我們今天在"},{"start":6408.998,"end":6437.637,"text":"討論的不是一個概念不是一個理論不是一個議題而是我們要立一個法修一個法所以法律的立法技術它當然需要有明確的定義倘若今天我們沒有明確的定義是剛剛有立委提到說不要限縮但其實限縮它同一個意思也就是必須要定義你沒有定義的話未來在執行上面是沒有辦法操作那我個人認為其實我們在談的不易移植它也就是轉型正義它不是"},{"start":6438.317,"end":6460.43,"text":"在不是一個族群的議題例如說我們講的國民政府威權統治時期事實上白色恐怖的受害者他是含瓜不同族群的剛剛我們在場也有委員是非常熟悉嘉義的例如我們高醫生在阿里山州族曾經是老師曾經是鄉長"},{"start":6462.438,"end":6479.313,"text":"那他是不是威權時期擺設恐怖的受害者當然是那他在什麼地方被槍決在安坑的刑場那我們需不需要為這樣的不義遺址來進行檢討來進行反省來進行教育跟推廣呢我認為是要的"},{"start":6480.88,"end":6507.407,"text":"剛剛提到的嘉義和孟凱文有談到的陳承波先生陳承波先生的故事是不是值得讓我們後代更多的我們的年輕時代來認識了解記憶才有可能進一步的來檢討跟反省呢那也就是在嘉義什麼樣的年代1947年因為當時陳承波先生是228事件的一個談判代表那他就在嘉義火車站一樣"},{"start":6509.059,"end":6534.513,"text":"因為威權的統治喪失了他的性命這是不是一個不義遺址他是不是應該要被認識是不是應該要被記錄所以我們其實在談論的是一個政權系統性的對不同族群的個人的生命造成的迫害那以及在這些場所今天我們討論的是不義遺址在這些場所我們透過立法來進行"},{"start":6536.514,"end":6560.202,"text":"保存、進行教育、進行推廣那我相當的贊成原住民族所遭受的不義絕對也應該要受到國家的重視而原住民族所遭受到的不義它是更多面向、更全面的所以它不能只有一個法律來處理我們要從不同層面包括政治、文化、經濟、歷史的不同的法條"},{"start":6560.822,"end":6584.069,"text":"都應該要來處理原住民族所遭受到的不義但我們今天在談論的不是不義的概念而是不義已止一個可操作化的這個立法那從第一條光是這個法律的名稱其實就我剛剛聽到其實就是完全不同的史觀不同的認識也沒有共識我其實我很抱歉因為我知道朝偉是"},{"start":6585.189,"end":6594.418,"text":"非常地尊重我們有很多的民間團體其實對這個條例也抱著很深的期待因為我們希望轉型正義在做的都是跟時間在賽跑當然我們希望可以趕快讓我們的這些轉型正義的工作能夠具體地來落實但是"},{"start":6602.565,"end":6620.742,"text":"我其實會蠻希望說我們是不是可以再來排公聽會那每一位委員都應該要可以去充分的發言因為我們如果現在進入每一條的這個細節其實大家在談論都是背後對於整個立法的背景其實是都是有不同的想法"},{"start":6621.443,"end":6624.284,"text":"所以我想如果我們有公聽會也讓民間團體可以來這裡來充分的發言充分的表達再進入到主條到法律的這個討論的話我覺得會不會我們可以比較好好來談論這個議題因為從第一條開始其實我認為不是只有文字上面的意見不同那是對於整個轉型正義它到底定義為何大家其實有很多不同的想法好 謝謝"},{"start":6648.514,"end":6675.627,"text":"謝謝吳佩儀委員的發言再來是高金素美委員要發言嗎好 非常好我也同意佩儀委員所講的也謝謝您其實原住民在那段時間遭受的迫害我們現在原民會手上也都有資料而且他的後代也都還在謝謝您也把我們看到裡面但是第一條的部分我也同意孟愷所說的其實第一條重點是"},{"start":6676.667,"end":6689.771,"text":"反省台灣歷史反省這個字很重要既然是要反省台灣歷史的話我就期盼大家不要切磕因為在我們現行規範把威權統治時期"},{"start":6694.032,"end":6717.97,"text":"這樣子的名稱僅僅限縮到民國三十四年以後這的確是忽略了日據時期原住民族所遭受的威權迫害這個根本沒有辦法全面呈現臺灣這塊土地上的人民以及他曾遭受到的歷史真相剛剛孟懇委員講得非常的好"},{"start":6719.671,"end":6747.249,"text":"我也正同佩玉委員所說的如果大家把這個時間點沒有辦法有一個定調跟討論成一個時間點的話我覺得大家就開公聽會吧要不然今天逐條的話我們會一直第一條你不要說什麼我們光是名稱就已經保留了第一條光是這個討論了那麼久然後實質第二條"},{"start":6748.209,"end":6773.682,"text":"要不要關中央園民會因為涉到原住民的權益中央園民會要不要進來涉足到客家族群的客家委員會要不要進來然後再來就是第三條的核心了第三條的核心就是時間點了所以其實光是前面這三條就已經討論我相信大家都不會有一個結果所以我也同意配意"},{"start":6775.363,"end":6780.468,"text":"剛剛委員所提的 我們還是在召開公聽會今天沒有急著要逐條的來討論 好嗎 以上 謝謝"},{"start":6791.553,"end":6808.534,"text":"那个有没有开公听会我尊重啦但是我还是要提醒大家讨论非常久了请大家回归到我们今天所讨论叫不易移植保存条例刚刚大家特别提到不易移植指的是个发生地好不好不管是反省不管什么它都是额外所延伸"},{"start":6808.874,"end":6824.661,"text":"也是非常重要的精神主軸但是呢你如果是要來根據我們這個條文是不易移植的保存那我覺得太多犯精神化的東西我們還是要把它聚焦舉例來說如果它是一個地點的話我根本就是認為你的第一條改變就是應該為保存活化威權統治時期侵害人權事件發生地"},{"start":6835.405,"end":6856.818,"text":"并粘结纪念它的历史价值跟人权及法治教育的意义请把那个发生地当作个组轴这才有办法符合我们刚刚所提到的至于繁醒至于其他的它都可以类归到你里面我刚刚所提到的彰显纪念价值跟人权及法治教育的意义来特别制定本条例"},{"start":6857.618,"end":6880.488,"text":"為什麼我要特別強調因為我發現大家都有太多自己懷抱的一些的想法過來所以對於是不是要開公聽會我也不覺得公聽會開多次會解決這個問題但是很顯然因為我們這是第一次坐在這個地方大家各自拿出版本還有很多修正動議終於可以聚焦在這個地方所以在今天之後所開的公聽會勢必會比過去開的公聽會更加的一個聚焦因為版本已經擺在這個地方了"},{"start":6886.431,"end":6910.16,"text":"所以呢我个人认为说公听会是一个选择的方法否则的话今天应该是从第三条开始来解决为什么因为第二条里面有人有文化部有人课委会有人有原住民那都是完全直至于你第三条里面你怎么样来定义你的时间点你怎么样定义你所谓的私有公有的这个部分你没有把范围把它界定清楚的话你没有办法回应到第二条第一条"},{"start":6910.82,"end":6934.1,"text":"所以如果说你要让他更有效率的方法从第三条开始讨论然后第二条第一条如果没有办法共识的话就各自拿着版本大家再透过一场或两场的公听会把它聚焦不是再发散性的再讲到各自的意识形态等等这样子对这个其实没有本席诚恳提出这样的建议好谢谢柯真委员张亚林委员然后第二吴佩玉委员"},{"start":6936.365,"end":6955.631,"text":"其實我的想法也跟柯知恩委員是相同我覺得說因為過去我們可能都比較是大家各自表述但是這次有版本我們就應該基於版本上面這一次的第三條來開始來檢視我們是不是還有相當的歧義那再去開公聽會的時候我覺得大家才能夠聚焦才能夠真正的把不移植這個條例可以來去推進"},{"start":6958.152,"end":6980.801,"text":"謝謝張雅玲委員再吳佩儀委員我只是要表達就像剛剛講的第一條我對剛剛柯子恩委員的意見我跟他就非常的不同我同意說他應該是聚焦在發聲的但是如果你把不義遺址把它變成是這個人權事件然後跟紀念這個我覺得完全已經違背了轉型正義它本身的初衷"},{"start":6982.782,"end":6999.35,"text":"請問馬搶定在我的選區啊 多少的人只是因為他想要追求自由在馬搶定被槍決被判處死刑 被國家跟政府的暴行奪去生命這個叫做人權紀念 紀念什麼啊"},{"start":7000.441,"end":7023.133,"text":"我們這樣子要教育傳達給我們的孩子什麼樣的概念跟價值呢所以像我就會堅持說他必須要是補益移植才能夠去清楚跟精確的產名那我要回復一下剛剛高金素梅委員的那沒有錯像對於高醫生這樣子的前輩跟鬥士我們"},{"start":7025.68,"end":7044.049,"text":"不應該用族群來去區分我們對於轉型正義過去威權歷史的反省那高醫生在給他妻子的家書裡面他尊尊的叮嚀水田不要賣水田不要賣"},{"start":7045.37,"end":7073.315,"text":"所以我同意剛剛高慶淑美委員所講的我們當然不能跟原住民族切割我們也不該之前鄭天才委員說如果沒有國民黨當年的戒嚴沒有今天的台灣我要說如果沒有原住民族一直守護在這個土地上沒有今天的台灣所以我們當然國家跟政府要來重視原住民族的權利那今天我很高興我們現場有國民黨的委員說我們每一個"},{"start":7074.545,"end":7092.733,"text":"人都要對過去的歷史要能夠檢討跟反省個人國民黨的委員個人願意來去檢討過去國民黨的威權統治對人權的迫害我覺得我們都要予以肯定但是我們今天討論這個立法我們要求誰來檢討我們是要求行政院"},{"start":7093.453,"end":7109.783,"text":"我們是要求國家要求政府是現在的左榮泰院長所帶領的行政院我們要求他們必須要檢討代表中華民國政府來對所有曾經遭受中華民國政府迫害的各個族群"},{"start":7110.697,"end":7124.896,"text":"每一個個人每一個家庭要進行檢討我們要求的是國家跟政府的檢討好謝謝那個吳佩玉委員因為那個吳佩玉委員剛有一點有一點誤解我的意思我剛只是說"},{"start":7125.697,"end":7141.407,"text":"不義遺址保存條例這是我們今天的既然叫不義遺址它應該強化的是發生地但是並沒有否定發生地背後所涵蓋的這樣的精神的價值所以我剛剛特別要澄清我認為因為你要呼應不義遺址保存這六個字"},{"start":7142.327,"end":7163.386,"text":"所以你第一条应该是保存活化这些侵害人权事件的发生地请注意我后面有特别提到了是要彰显纪念其历史价值跟人权及法治交易的意义所以千万不要误解我只强调所谓的发生地发生地纯粹只是配合我们刚刚的部分后面的意旨那个精神还是保留我一定要做这样的一个澄清"},{"start":7164.206,"end":7174.21,"text":"那請問你認為把不義兩個字放進去有什麼不妥呢我沒有說不行啊我現在只告訴你我強化的是發聲帝你不能因為這個部分你就否定兩個字為什麼不能去不妥請大家尊重主席因為剛剛葛如君要發言那我建議葛如君發言完之後除非這條沒有發言過的否則我們第一條就保留然後進入下一條好不好"},{"start":7185.114,"end":7202.182,"text":"好 謝謝 我想我還是要再次也感謝這個吳佩玉委員有提到我們是有共識的剛剛洪孟楷委員也提到了反省是我們的共識那但是剛剛吳佩玉委員我們也可能有不一樣的想法像吳佩玉委員說為什麼不義有問題那我剛剛一直有問部長說這個不義這兩個字"},{"start":7207.904,"end":7224.665,"text":"他可以這樣一刀切用我們行政院我們的立法直接在名稱上面說不義然後在細節裡面去定時期不義可以一刀切嗎不義應該是任何的言論都應該是不義啊所以我想現在是有同有義啦"},{"start":7225.546,"end":7254.602,"text":"所以我是支持剛剛有多位委員不管是什麼政黨都有提到我們現在有版本了其實我們是可以也許來辦公聽會可能就可以更聚焦那其實同一個政黨的內部也有不同看法像其實民進黨的委員黃婕委員的提議其實就是人權紀念長旨所以人權紀念長旨的這個提議並非只有柯志恩委員提出並非只有國民黨的委員提出所以這一點"},{"start":7255.202,"end":7281.769,"text":"我相信是有同有異所以我們純同化異我想我是支持我們用公聽會的形式來做更廣泛的討論謝謝好 謝謝葛國軍委員那那個部長說他可以那個簡短回應一下那我最後很快的這個講一下那個簡短喔好 謝謝召委我很具體的我呼應那個剛才吳佩穎委員跟葛國軍委員還有幾位委員這邊其實也有提"},{"start":7282.409,"end":7286.274,"text":"因為今天針對定義 針對精神 針對長指我們大家都有不同的看法跟意見那我提議是不是我們走起來召開公聽會讓大家對於這個法條的內容有比較深刻而且更聚焦的一個討論這是我的一個提議 謝謝先讓部長回應"},{"start":7303.6,"end":7311.85,"text":"謝謝葛禄君委員一直要我回答這個問題就是說他認為說在這個時代如果有人說要挺戒嚴算不算不義言論對不對 你的問題是這樣"},{"start":7313.598,"end":7338.519,"text":"我覺得這個問題對我來講都不是問題的原因是我舉一個韓國的總統他突然要喊戒嚴之後他是個總統他要逮捕議會的議員他都做不到因為韓國已經走到一個民主時代韓國的這個整個從威權到民主的過程是靠大學生衝在第一線被殺被抓我都在現場被噴過那個噴過那個催淚彈我心裡想韓國今天能夠走到"},{"start":7342.608,"end":7350.098,"text":"威權走到民主是靠大學生這麼勇敢的爭取來今天任何一個總統他要喊我要戒嚴他做不到"},{"start":7351.007,"end":7375.06,"text":"那就是一個時代的進步所以我剛才抱歉打斷部長他戒嚴成功了只是時間很短我要correct一下但是你要知道一個時代做不到他做到了沒有一個時代走到一個程度的時候他如果能夠倒退回去是個悲劇所以你剛才講說有人挺戒嚴我根本沒有感覺到這句話存在是你來問全台灣的人來大家投票你站不站成戒嚴"},{"start":7376.79,"end":7392.984,"text":"一定是非常非常少的人赞成所以当有一个人发言这样的时候他有什么意义他有没有你认为那个语言是不义吗那个一点都没有意义的话就是他随口讲的啊那个东西不代表整个时代走到一个就像我们今天可以在这边聊这么多我是"},{"start":7393.644,"end":7419.194,"text":"我是覺得他是一個很進步的觀念重新再反省台灣的歷史被迫害但是我不希望這樣的談話變成互相把倉巴再一次暴露出來大家互相又掀起大家的仇恨我覺得那不是我們今天想要的我們今天想要的是一個反省所以這是我個人的表達就是我們都是在很勇敢的反省過去所有發生的事情而沒有帶有任何的仇恨或者是要控訴這是我個人的想法 謝謝"},{"start":7424.955,"end":7446.604,"text":"主席裁決我們第一條就先保留好不好我們就往下走看能夠走幾條那工地會的事情我們可以到最後的時候來討論那第二條第一條保留那第二條條例主管機關為文化部這個部分有哪位委員要發言嗎那我看都是文化部只有鄭天才委員多了一個文化部之外"},{"start":7447.484,"end":7469.873,"text":"第二條有三個修正動議陳秀寶、萬美玲跟林倩琦林倩琦早晚也有我的你有修正動議是吧有啊修正動議還有那個就是林倩琦委員一起的還有林益菁委員那個張雅玲那個林益菁委員先張雅玲、陳秀寶、鄭天才"},{"start":7474.128,"end":7502.728,"text":"謝謝主席第二條我除了跟院版一樣以外還有另加就是說院版是本條例主管機關文化部那我還有加本法所定事項涉及其他目的事業主管機關執掌者由主管機關會同各目的事業主管機關辦理那為什麼會這樣子加這些所以我鑒於文資法它就是針對一般"},{"start":7503.789,"end":7523.158,"text":"文化資產的保存那主管機關拆分成中央的文化部跟地方的文化局那可是不義遺址不一樣就是說就院版的條文來看全國的不義遺址好像就是有單一有中央部會就是文化部來統籌保存跟活化的事物可是我必須要注意強調的一點是說"},{"start":7524.398,"end":7547.514,"text":"不移植實際上牽涉到各種不同機關的管轄權那文化部真的有能力獨當一面來統籌全國管理全國的不移植嗎這當然要好好的思考那根據文化部之前回覆本席有關於不移植盤點的臨時提案我們就可以看到促轉會先行審定的42處的不移植中"},{"start":7548.214,"end":7563.528,"text":"明確表達不願意設置標示牌的各種理由推脫設置標示牌的就有18處那管轄的機關從國防部法務部到各地方縣市政府都有那所以這個條例如果完成立法之後文化部"},{"start":7564.673,"end":7581.103,"text":"就能自動取得這些遺址的管轄權不用理會之前我說的那些反對或消極作為的相關的機關嗎所以這個部分可能還是請文化部說明說如果這個法令通過之後然後由文化部作為"},{"start":7581.903,"end":7606.526,"text":"唯一的主管機關的時候那這個跟各部會跟各機關的溝通文化部要怎麼樣處理那另外我將這個東西入法就由主管機關會同各目的事業主管機關辦理就是希望說文化部能積極強加強部會之間的橫向連結而不是因為涉及其他部會的權責就兩手一攤不關我自己的事"},{"start":7607.026,"end":7623.501,"text":"所以意思就是說本質上這就是一個要跨部會合作的推動的工作那所以不一一指的保存跟不一一指的教育其實也都是一樣的意思那這一點也請大家來一起討論好 謝謝林怡婧委員再來張雅玲委員下一個陳秀寶委員"},{"start":7627.901,"end":7640.089,"text":"然後再增添採購金那這一條呢其實我是跟那個議員有意見類似就是說我增加了第二項就是本條例鎖定設項涉及各目的世界主管機關業務時各該機關應配合辦理"},{"start":7644.372,"end":7669.472,"text":"因為之前呢在促轉會解散之後呢其實各項主管機關包含文化內政教育等等都要去承接相關的業務所以還是回到我講的我們必須積極的去活化積極的去做一些教育推廣不然就只是保存那個空間他並沒有辦法再把相關的一些意義讓後代子孫可以去理解那也成如剛剛已經講了就是說其實我們42處審定的名單其實現在掛牌的也不"},{"start":7674.415,"end":7700.4,"text":"那其實有很多的機關都非常的消極也不願意積極的來去配合辦理所以如果只有文化部在投入的話那我認為我們的相關教育工作會非常難進行所以我這個提案不是要否定文化部而是說我們可以增加更多的工具讓文化部可以來使用也可以希望讓更多的部會一起來投入那這個部分"},{"start":7701.5,"end":7722.751,"text":"也希望待會文化部可以來說明一下您的想法 謝謝謝謝 再來我們請陳秀寶委員謝謝主席 我這邊也呼籲以井跟雅玲的說法的看法其實博弈一職的保存管理跟推動轉型正義人權教育可能涉及的是文化部以外的各行政機關像法務部教育部等等都可以有"},{"start":7723.391,"end":7752.791,"text":"因此应该明定涉及其他目的事业主管机关的相关事务的话应该由文化部会同其他机关来办理来一例相关事项的推行所以我在第二条的部分有增第二项就是本条例所定是向涉及其他目的事业主管机关执掌者由主管机关会同各目的事业主管机关办理以免说只有文化部这样子来办理的话不够周全不够全面以上"},{"start":7754.072,"end":7755.013,"text":"第二條的部分"},{"start":7772.534,"end":7793.451,"text":"我所提的條文是針對原住民族的部分那剛才聽了很多委員的發言之後可能不是只有涉及到原住民還有客家甚至像雅琳都一直提到教育的那個部分所以我是可以支持這個"},{"start":7795.012,"end":7810.72,"text":"林怡瑾還有雅琳他們所提的這個第二項本法所定四項涉及其他目的事業主管機關執掌者由主管機關會同各目的事業主管機關辦理這個部分以上"},{"start":7813.053,"end":7828.919,"text":"謝謝再來高津庶民委員好謝謝剛剛對於這個第二條的部分這個條例的部分那個我也補充說明一下我的部分因為是有針對園民會的事務所以我特別提了就是園庶民委員會的角色"},{"start":7830.079,"end":7847.436,"text":"原住民族委員會作為政策統籌還有統合機關其實他們對日據時期日本政權對原住民族的迫害有很深入的理解相比之下文化部對於這樣子的歷史尤其剛剛李部長所講的"},{"start":7848.857,"end":7872.987,"text":"主說提出來的這個切割時間點的部分我們認為您對這個歷史的階段認識相對不足所以是我有點擔心所以我在第二條裡面要把園民會放下來當然萬美玲委員也把客家委員會然後怡錦委員是把其他有涉及到其他目的樹葉子管機關都放進來我覺得這是好事那我還是要特別提一下"},{"start":7873.587,"end":7898.815,"text":"原民會其實已經出版非常多關於原住民族重大歷史事件的研究的資料所以這個可以作為重要的參考所以我會建議一定要把原民會還有其他相關的機關納入相關的作業來確保歷史調查還有政策制定的完整性跟正確性以上的說明 謝謝"},{"start":7899.923,"end":7923.257,"text":"好 謝謝再來萬美玲委員好 謝謝朝委其實第一條以後說真的我都不知道要怎麼發言因為光提到不易以止四個字但我們其實在第一條是保留的所以我想我這邊這樣子來說明好了在這個第二條的部分本是認為其實要把威權時代擴大到這個日本的威權統治時期的"},{"start":7924.338,"end":7945.22,"text":"不管是现在的不育遗址或是我们要说的人权纪念场域的保存其实都会涉及到其他的族群这是我们刚刚所有的委员都有发言过的所以其实我认为其实我们应该不管是在会同这个援助民族或者是客家的这个主管机关来严商办理其实会比较周延那我举个例子"},{"start":7945.78,"end":7970.438,"text":"其實就是本席先前提到在1895年那胡家游率領客家義民跟日軍的安平鎮之役因為在我們桃園的平鎮的這個戰場上這個地址其實就是現在的平鎮區新光路六段那現在我們也把它立了一個胡家游以為抗日紀念碑那當時的這個壕溝那現在變成一個皮堂也就是現在的八角堂"},{"start":7971.078,"end":7986.375,"text":"所以其實像這些是不是其實都應該納入所謂的不義遺址或是人權紀念場域那這個呢就是涉及了客家族群所以主管機關文化部就應該要會同客委會一起來保存所以我想"},{"start":7986.995,"end":8009.247,"text":"在第二條的部分的話我跟高新素美委員在這條的主張比較類似就是我希望就是如果有涉及我們客家族群原住民這個族群的事務的那應該要由主管機關會同中央客家跟原住民族主管機關來辦理 以上好 再來郭玉琴委員"},{"start":8018.163,"end":8028.957,"text":"主管機關是文化部那當然剛剛其實很多委員他們有提到很多的這個狀況就是要有其他的這些部會相關部會一起來做這樣子的一個統合"},{"start":8029.718,"end":8053.96,"text":"我幫原住民講一下然後剛剛也接受這個鄭天才委員他的這個道歉然後我想這個如果說要一直在溯及到所謂的日治時代那我想原住民其實最有關係的其實應該是荷蘭人對台灣的統治當時其實在1635年到1645年這個小琉球島的對原住民的趕盡殺絕是荷蘭人那我想這個部分是不是也要納入啊"},{"start":8054.38,"end":8074.859,"text":"如果要一直不斷的在擴大這樣子的話題的話那我在另外228事件當中其實一樣也有受害的原住民包含林瑞昌事件、林昭明事件、林永明事件等等這個不易講的其實是殘餘的歷史記憶被栽贓下的一個苦難的日子"},{"start":8075.399,"end":8101.047,"text":"那我想這個在原住民在這個菁英他們在228事件之後也就是1950年被戒嚴的時候被羅織入獄其實也是都有這樣子所以我覺得我們就focus是不是能夠把這個事件就集中在集合在我們講的這個博弈移植的這幾年當中這樣子的一個時間點可能會更清楚好那個謝謝郭議員張雅琳委員"},{"start":8103.046,"end":8128.995,"text":"我再補充發言一下就是說其實在這個戒嚴時期威權統治的時期這個國民政府當時傷害的不僅只是台灣人嘛那其實是有非常多的族群都受害啦不管是原住民也好或各家民其實是相關的族群應該都在這個時期這邊遭受到一些迫害所以我還是希望說文化部可以來做一下說明喔因為你們原本訂的是主管機關為文化部嘛"},{"start":8129.395,"end":8147.62,"text":"但現在聽起來委員的意思都還是希望是說相關涉及的各目的事業主管機關都能夠來配合辦理這一點待會可不可以再做個說明謝謝好 謝謝張雅玲委員那我想就是有提案的委員都說明過那是不是文化部市王實施次長說明一下"},{"start":8148.28,"end":8165.045,"text":"好 非常謝謝委員的關心大概分兩個部分說明第一個在這裡面寫的主管機關的意思是我們是主管機關那各相關的事業或者相關的部會或者是地方政府它是所謂的管理機關因為它是所有權人也就是說它原來法定的設計是"},{"start":8166.385,"end":8195.326,"text":"由文化部來主管要求這些管理機關來執行這個不議職的保存任務這是這個當時設計的目的那第二件事是關於委員推詢到客委會員住民委員會這件事情那因為當初這個立法的時候我們認為在侵害人權的這件事上它其實是沒有分族群的但是在審議委員會就是在不議職的審議的時候審議委員會因為它的歷史而加入不同的"},{"start":8196.127,"end":8225.867,"text":"专业需求所以他如果是原住民的或客会的他在审议委员的时候会加入这样子的族群背景那这个部分在执法定定就可以就没有在无法定定但是因为刚刚的讨论之后我想委员比较关心的是说文化部有何德何能管理所有的不义遗址所以我们想我们可以支持的是在这个张雅玲的委员的这个版本里面有一个要求就是说本条例锁定的事业跟各目的事业主要机关的时候他们要配合办理"},{"start":8226.187,"end":8233.937,"text":"那如果這樣當然就強化了文化部作為主管機關的管理效果那如果是能有這樣的版本我想文化部是可以支持的以上說明"},{"start":8235.014,"end":8262.401,"text":"好 謝謝所以文化部可以支持那個張雅玲委員的版本就是涉及不管是客家原住民的時候該主管機關應配合辦理不知道這樣大家覺得可以嗎好 高精素美委員抱歉 我不接受次長你的說法其實在我們立法院裡面立法只要有關係到原住民事務的其實都會會同原民會這是立法體力所以您剛剛所提的那個部分我都不同意所以我會比較支持林一錦委員提的部分"},{"start":8263.021,"end":8278.56,"text":"就是本條例主管機關是文化部本法所定的事項只要是涉及其他目的事業主管機關執掌者由主管機關會同客目的事業主管機關辦理我認為這個部分是比較完整的謝謝"},{"start":8280.201,"end":8309.181,"text":"文化部次長跟部長都點頭這樣很高興那我們是不是就以林一金委員的版本通過第二條好 謝謝那我們就進行第三條我是直接建議第三條就保留好不好因為跟剛剛大家的議題是一樣的時期的定義我想要請教一下雖然我知道要保留但是我還是想要聽一下文化部的意見就是說因為我的這一條裡面大致和院版是相同的但是我在第一項第三款我新增了學校法人"},{"start":8310.661,"end":8335.048,"text":"因為其實很多學校其實也有不義遺址嘛像是說台大城汶城事件啊或是二八的顏平學院高雄中學學校法人還有淡江大學的軍訓科槍支等等等等涉及學校的部分是不是也可以說明一下你們的想法那個文化部這邊是不是說明然後待會那個政天才在高清說明"},{"start":8335.948,"end":8350.69,"text":"先跟委員做回覆我針對學校法人的部分因為我們在法文裡面已經寫了公法人所以學校法人基本上已經算進去那導致剛剛委員我們剛剛因為第一條保留我們就沒有回覆的就是在第一條裡面有幾位委員都很關心那個"},{"start":8351.997,"end":8369.378,"text":"教育文化推廣的事情那這部分其實在第一條裡面如果加入的話我們認為是可以接受的但是因為其實地點有些是私立學校嘛那私立學校也是有領政府的補助這些是不是也可以來作為一個不易移植地區型的基地呢這個部分"},{"start":8370.493,"end":8397.527,"text":"跟委員做說明因為在本法裡面我們只針對公有的不義遺址私有的不義遺址原則上我們沒有強制他被放進範圍所以只要是公法人就會有公立的學校但他如果是私立的學校基本上會尊重他們的意願會在對財產傷害最小的原則下才會執行所以在這裡面是沒有放進司法人的部分好 那個鄭天才委員然後再高清順便委員"},{"start":8401.71,"end":8413.361,"text":"這個第三條的部分這個行政院版還有其他委員的版本是用威權統治時期那我的用詞不叫威權統治時期是極權統治時期第三條"},{"start":8426.023,"end":8436.656,"text":"那個不一樣是不好意思是打錯了吧是打錯了好沒關係修正就好是打錯了這一本最早的這一本"},{"start":8439.617,"end":8466.696,"text":"是用集權統治時期集體的集那我思考了很久到底是要用集體的集還是要用中級的集我思考了很久啦所以這個部分是大家可以去參考我的條文那個集權齁雖然我不是政治學但我是政治社會學齁集權是像習近平那種我怕那個國民黨會不同意過去被定義成集權啦沒關係我尊重您的版本"},{"start":8467.366,"end":8476.277,"text":"跟國民黨沒有關係所以這個部分因為我的時間點是從清朝清朝清朝"},{"start":8479.53,"end":8502.535,"text":"極權統治時期指自清代至中華民國八十一年十一月六日指這個部分是這樣所以這個部分這個大家可以討論那為什麼呢剛才也很多委員有提到像荷蘭荷蘭就是清朝時期就是清代時期所以這個部分是這個是一個"},{"start":8504.436,"end":8523.533,"text":"這樣真話會更完整了那高金素美委員所提的那個1918那個也是清朝是不是不是日本我的是清朝我的是清朝以上請大家能夠支持謝謝曾天才委員高金素美委員"},{"start":8524.634,"end":8547.139,"text":"它的版本裡面第二項也有一個不易移植指威權時期它是第二個也是同步都改嗎?是全部都改嗎?剛剛鄭天才委員說它原來的版本是集權啦對 所以所有裡面的威權的字都改成集權式老師想確認一下它的確是最早的版本是集權啦你們整理的時候文化部整理版本可能整理錯誤了沒關係 那它已經澄清了那高金素美委員請發言"},{"start":8548.499,"end":8575.147,"text":"好第三條這個部分除了時間點之外呢他也有講不義遺址的這個定義還有公有不義遺址的定義還有一個那所以我還是必須等一下發言一下就是呢日令第26號剝奪了原住民的土地權也就是1895年也就是明治28年日本是以日令第26號發布官有林業以及樟腦製造業取締的規則"},{"start":8576.767,"end":8590.703,"text":"以法律無名文寫法律手段來剝奪了原住民族的土地權把原住民不可以證明所有權的山林原野化為關有地"},{"start":8591.844,"end":8606.482,"text":"連珠民族賴以維生的180萬公頃的傳統領域的土地我們現在只剩下了20萬公頃的準純質領域第二個我要談的是愛永縣愛永縣裡面有內藩界土地調查"},{"start":8607.043,"end":8622.73,"text":"也是從1908年開始日本展開了愛永縣內藩界土地調查五年事業他們宣稱全台灣的藩地均可視為官有地並成為日本帝國的財產這個完全剝奪了原住民的土地權第三個我要談的是"},{"start":8628.853,"end":8651.38,"text":"軍事討伐跟禮番計劃 這個都有非常多的地點還有歷史事件從1910年開始 日本實行以軍事討伐為目的然後禮番五年計劃 佐久間總督他親自率領了軍警對北部一直到中南部的山地進行了討伐跟掃蕩"},{"start":8652.56,"end":8681.135,"text":"它的核心的目的除了要征服原住民族當然還包括了要把原住民當時所謂的翻地收歸國有上述的歷史事實是日本威權統治時期對原住民族還有國人的迫害我認為應該要受到高度的重視並且必須要納入現行的轉型正義的處理範疇那這個部分呢我未來也會提案"},{"start":8681.855,"end":8700.154,"text":"然後我們來看一下日據時代它用於的法律依據是日據時代為什麼從以前到現在我從來不用日字這兩個字我用日據這兩個字因為完全不一樣我會提到日據時代這個一個名詞是言又從"},{"start":8701.175,"end":8723.062,"text":"民國89年制定的日據時代諸事會社台灣銀行海外分支機構存款還有匯款處理條例它是具有法律依據的所以今天我們要談到的所謂的不義遺址不管是您的威權統治不管是土地的問題不管是事件我認為只要有關"},{"start":8724.709,"end":8741.375,"text":"原住民跟日據時代我應該認為用日據比較相關歷史描述而且它是具有法律依據的那在這邊也提醒一下文化部部長這句話其實是講給您聽的請您未來您作為一個首長"},{"start":8742.728,"end":8763.418,"text":"您非常的重要如果用日治的話其實第一它沒有法律依據第二它是合法的統治事實上原住民族從來沒有離開過抵抗所以我們認為應該用日治這兩個字所以以上的補充說明謝謝"},{"start":8764.985,"end":8788.333,"text":"謝謝高津素美委員的發言我想第三條跟剛剛前面一樣是涉及到外民林委員要發言是吧對 我有一個部分我覺得可能要請那個昭偉這邊先釐清一下因為我不太了解因為我們一開始的時候就在提名稱的問題那我們現在不義遺址或者是人權紀念場址或者人權紀念場域這個部分我們現在是保留對不對"},{"start":8789.522,"end":8800.457,"text":"是確定保留送協商您稱就是保留這樣 對那這樣多數委員的版本是不一致啊就您剛剛好像有宣告嘛就是這個部分我們是保留送協商嘛那是確定保留送協商"},{"start":8801.988,"end":8826.975,"text":"名稱我剛剛是說暫時保留暫時保留的意思是什麼就是我們最後再回來看名稱要不要一致改最後還要再回來看就是我們已經照一條一條下來我兩個問題第一個就是說如果名稱我們是保留送協商那就是要保留送協商那我就不了解什麼叫暫時這第一個暫時是像我們委員會有時候就是全部審完之後看來大家是要把名稱一起送協商那我想這個我了解"},{"start":8828.595,"end":8842.76,"text":"我現在的意思是說因為為什麼這個名稱很重要你現在後面每一條我真的不知道怎麼審下去他們每一條都是不管在什麼地方通通有不予以止四個字那如果名稱都沒有定的話我後面到底要怎麼去審呢後面的每一條"},{"start":8843.2,"end":8870.048,"text":"我們其實最後的時候可以來討論這個部分那我覺得要不要就先討論如果說我們這個地方還是不能達成共識是要保留送協商事實上後面這一些就沒辦法審是不是要一起保留送協商這我提議召委來處理我建議我們就繼續走看能走多少如果到那一條大家覺得不一致這四個字就是我們最後審完之後再一起來看是這四個字一致保留送協商的話我們可以那個時候確定好不好"},{"start":8870.788,"end":8892.765,"text":"但是我覺得這個名稱很重要如果說重要假設但是假設有版本的十一個版本幾乎都是一人嗎你可以讓我把它說完嗎不意義只好您講你讓我把它說完一下就因為這個名稱很重要如果說現在召委的裁定裁釋是我們現在就是先把它審完避免前面在這個名稱上面的耽擱最後還是要回來討論這個議題為什麼不秀先也討論如果您今天就是要把這個議題要討論出來確定的話否則後面每一條通通"},{"start":8899.77,"end":8918.118,"text":"有不義遺址那這樣是要怎麼審不是 那周偉認為我們會越討論大家想法越清楚啦那因為其實大家都尊重而且每一位都認為不管你要叫他不義遺址或者有人要叫他人權傷害遺址都值得保留的話後面涉及到怎麼保留的部分應該共識性就比較高嘛"},{"start":8920.319,"end":8943.456,"text":"我们只是对于就是说他最后的名称跟这个时期要拉到所有的统治时期还是针对中华民国威权统治时期我觉得还是有一点点不一样的地方就是说我们现在如果不管是用哪一种名称然后呢假设今天即便你回过头来还是没有共识的情况之下我们是不是还是一样保留送协商嘛对啊"},{"start":8944.156,"end":8960.024,"text":"因為這個機會是很大的嘛那這樣子的話我們後面所有今天討論的個條裡面只要有不予以止那這樣不是很奇怪嗎名稱保留送協商沒有確定那後面我們照一個沒有確定的最重要的名稱然後一直把它審下去然後這個部分保留送協商後面難道就要出國園會嗎我認為"},{"start":8961.405,"end":8980.838,"text":"因為政黨協商他們不如我們對於文化部如何保留遺址這件事情專業我們應該把這個能數也都處理完只把比較政治性到底這個是要專法要針對中華民國威權時期還是要連荷蘭清朝都放進去那個可能是比較政治性議題那個再送政黨協商"},{"start":8981.658,"end":8996.989,"text":"所以我覺得如何保留這個部分我看版本最後後面其他條文的差異非常小那是不是我們就繼續往下走那我們第三條就保留有時候我還是歡迎一下那個魏委員這邊的講法因為這個東西在一開始我們名稱的保留"},{"start":8997.589,"end":9004.052,"text":"但是我們其實在剛才的討論我們知道大家對於族群然後事實上還有空間那這個議題如果在一開始沒有聚焦的話我們後面的這個討論幾乎就像剛才萬委員講的通通都牽扯到不義然後在不義我們其實一開始就討論到究竟是要正面表列還是負面表列那這其實也會牽扯到剛才有一些委員談教育的這個部分"},{"start":9021.3,"end":9045.376,"text":"那我覺得這個部分如果在一開始沒有共識那我們在一個很奇怪的完全沒有共識崎嶇的平台上討論下去我不認為這整個法是有系統的跟有邏輯的這是我以上那主席裁決我們休息五分鐘我們討論一下思考一下好不好休息五分鐘"},{"start":9373.456,"end":9395.468,"text":"好 那個我們休息完後那我們第三條保留好 那第四條我們針對第四條討論那有哪位委員要發言第四條修正動議有那個陳秀寶委員然後萬美玲委員 林建啟委員第四條主管機關的推動執行下列事項陳秀寶委員先發言"},{"start":9398.508,"end":9424.198,"text":"謝主席 在這第四條的部分是主要推動業務那本席認為說 定定不易移植個案資料保存及活化我認為應該主要是要如何連結不易移植跟歷史轉型正義跟人權教育的連結才是重中之重那如果只是保存不易移植把它當作一般的文資我們也失去了維護不易移植這個重要的意義"},{"start":9424.878,"end":9444.578,"text":"所以我希望文化部呢要會同教育部辦理相關教育事項所以我在第一項的我增訂了第六款的部分第六款我是增訂推廣不易移植相關之轉型正義及人權教育我會希望說除了說我們把這個長子"},{"start":9445.839,"end":9458.868,"text":"保留下來之外我們必須去連結相關於這個人權教育的部分這樣子才有本身我們去維護博弈子這個本身的這個意義以上好 謝謝林益菁委員"},{"start":9460.746,"end":9476.564,"text":"謝謝主席第四條我的版本跟院版的不同在於就是把推廣不義遺址相關之轉型正義教育納入主管機關依推動執行的項目之中"},{"start":9477.345,"end":9499.947,"text":"因為實際上不論是文化部主管的國家人權博物館又或者很多的民間團體其實都有在舉辦不遺址的解說小旅行介紹該場址相關的人權侵害事件那這塊土地曾發生的人權破壞其實必須要搭配歷史記憶的教育才會讓不遺址的保存價值更加彰顯"},{"start":9501.388,"end":9526.228,"text":"那所以剛剛秀寶委員的意思也是一樣就是好像也是把教育也加進去所以我想說是不是把這一條加進去那也彰顯說我們其實重視教育的主題性質然後讓這個教育的這個意義在這個裡面被彰顯以上謝謝 郭益勤委員"},{"start":9532.277,"end":9549.737,"text":"這一條的第五款我是特別新增在推廣不義遺址的轉型建議的教育那我剛剛有提到其實這個公民的教育其實非常重要也希望大家能夠藉由這樣子的一個教育的推廣來了解台灣在民主的過程當中的不容易"},{"start":9550.558,"end":9578.645,"text":"那我舉個例子其實去年2024年這個國家人權博物館的參觀人次大概只有23萬多人那分別是這個景美園區11萬還有一個綠島的園區12萬對比之下很多人都視為所謂的威權象徵的中正紀念堂它有404萬的參觀人次那可見就是我們這些遺址的活化跟教育的推廣的部分其實還是需要有很大的進步空間那主要的部分是在這裡以上"},{"start":9580.05,"end":9581.463,"text":"好 謝謝再來萬美玲委員"},{"start":9583.446,"end":9611.659,"text":"好 謝謝昭緯我還是有一點不太理解想要請昭緯或者是看誰能夠來說明跟解釋一下你看像現在我們來審到剛剛的第三條現在是第四條我回頭再講第二條的部分你看我們大家經過討論以後不管是誰的版本我們發現有好的版本我們大家都能夠接受的其實今天就不分黨派我們就同意了所以剛剛第二條是用移情的版本也很和諧所以"},{"start":9613.14,"end":9627.931,"text":"不會有什麼意識形態或者在這邊爲了爭鬥而爭鬥其實沒有但是真的我要回頭看我們不管第三條、第四條以及以後的每一條那幾乎都有提到不義於子的部分"},{"start":9630.213,"end":9654.284,"text":"那目前因為我們對於不議職這個名稱我們其實是沒有共識的不能說現在這個是好或不好那或者是我們有決定要用它不用它那就是還沒有共識還需要經過討論那既然是在名稱上都已經保留了我就不太知道雖然我這是第二屆當立委了可是我不太理解可以這樣子嗎就是現在我們討論到第三條第四條然後第三條剛剛是整條保留對不對"},{"start":9655.724,"end":9667.857,"text":"對 那OK 這我就沒有意見但第四條的部分現在有一些內容剛剛因為Joey來溝通的時候是說有一些內容我們其實沒有太大的問題我們是不是要讓它先過但是我理解到的我們在審這個法條的時候比較沒有這樣子說"},{"start":9670.72,"end":9692.223,"text":"這一條讓他過其中一個名詞我們把它保留下來再做更換那這個我不太理解為什麼可以這樣做那如果說按照我們名稱都還沒有確定的情況之下那是不是只要後面每一個條文裡面那遇到剛剛在第一條保留的部分我們變成要全部保留了所以我希望這個部分可以有在更明確的這個定義來我們才能夠往下走好不好"},{"start":9693.769,"end":9714.749,"text":"那我想 昭緯過去記得有經驗過就是說名稱大家有些不同意見可是其他的部分都有都有一致性的還是可以往前走因為最後要保留的時候我們可以知道就是說保留的是什麼原因只是名稱還是像現在零零幾五元或者是我的增加一個第六項要不要會同教育主管機關這個部分"},{"start":9715.329,"end":9736.487,"text":"所以我想因為我們的發言都有會議記錄都會很清楚知道我們保留的原因是什麼就算每一條都保留那如果我們知道後面只是因為名稱名稱解決了其實大家就只要協商名稱就好了那其他就可以請就是我們的法條整理人員處理啊所以我想我們到底保留的原因是什麼應該也都會被記錄"},{"start":9738.528,"end":9764.639,"text":"林建齊委員針對您剛才講的這個部分我不知道你們先前保留了說對名稱有意見是什麼樣子的狀況但是這個名稱是我們從一開始針對這個不義遺址的名稱大家就已經有意見了幾乎每一條都會牽扯到這一件當我們現在討論到第四條還有更有影響更大的是還有一個教育的推廣"},{"start":9765.399,"end":9781.626,"text":"那這個是對大家的觀念影響甚重的一件事情所以假設這個部分沒有共識而且也已經保留了那未來在這個地方它確實是一個主軸就是說我們如果還要再推廣我們還要再教育那這個主軸如果沒有定"},{"start":9783.167,"end":9801.859,"text":"對於要怎麼推廣這個對於正面或負面或者是在教育的這個觀念層次上它是最重要的一個核心如果從頭我們這個部分就沒有共識那後面的一個延伸出去的網路我們怎麼去確認它是我們原本要的立法議職呢所以我還是建議這個名稱沒有定這條還是保留"},{"start":9810.257,"end":9838.344,"text":"我知道你主張保留那我們看有沒有別的委員要發言好吧高金素梅委員我的修正版本就是按照行政院版本我有幾個問題想問一下文化部部長所謂的保存活化是什麼概念是什麼意思因為這裡面我們從來都沒有看到但是在這幾年當中我們卻看到了非常多的"},{"start":9839.344,"end":9851.684,"text":"以前留下來的不管是這個軍事的這個土地好像的活化大概都是有很大的爭議那中正紀念堂如果我沒有記錯的話"},{"start":9853.55,"end":9871.145,"text":"好幾屆大家都在談中正紀念堂未來把它卸除叫做不叫中正紀念堂叫做民主廣場但是呢曾經有聽說過所謂的不義遺址呢其實就是針對中正紀念堂"},{"start":9871.966,"end":9883.281,"text":"我提醒大家中正紀念堂那塊土地在台北市政府是核心地的蛋黃區所以我覺得所謂的保存活化"},{"start":9884.639,"end":9904.351,"text":"部長您應該要說清楚講明白第二件事情呢我其實對於剛剛怡瑾所談的條文就是推廣不義遺址相關的轉型正義教育我想請問一下其實現在在行政院裡面也有人權處他有針對人權教育也在做一些推廣"},{"start":9905.471,"end":9933.9,"text":"監察院裡面也有人權委員會針對這個部分也有在做教育推廣請問一下未來文化部要增加是不是在我們的行政體系裡面已經有三個教育推廣了那你們要做的跟他們會有些什麼不一樣那當然我的版本是沒有把教育放在裡面那麼對於儀錦的版本有放一個教育推廣我也沒有意見"},{"start":9934.52,"end":9962.199,"text":"但是我就是希望部長或者是次長你們能夠講清楚一下因為大家都說尤其趙薇說今天非常多的團體在透過我們今天的協商大家在看這件事情所以我不得不把大家的疑慮還有外面的傳說對於所謂的自由廣場所謂的活化你們要怎麼活化會不會又是另外一個財團"},{"start":9963.78,"end":9983.953,"text":"要進去了然後又會不會又會有一些問題存在我們當然不希望又有人因為那塊土地然後要活化然後呢就會有相關的一些貪汙啦一些法律上的這個違法事件那麼我想這個部分必須要說清楚好嗎謝謝"},{"start":9985.868,"end":10012.068,"text":"好 那針對這一條還沒有人要發言或是疑問的如果沒有的話我們是不是請文化部看哪一位做說明那個部長我先解釋一下那個活化其實活化是一個蠻中性的名詞它可能是利用這個地方在教育等等它不會是那個變賣財產什麼不是這個意思所以原來我們有把教育的目的定在這個活化裡面"},{"start":10013.406,"end":10040.914,"text":"中央建议团其实原来是在日本时代是个炮兵部队后来国民政府也是进驻军队所以它不是它不是不义遗址它现在只是因为把它定义成威权象征它不是不义遗址所以这点你不用担心说将来要怎么活化财团等等我想不是这个意思自我解释了对不起威权象征也在我们不义遗址里面吗请问部长没有"},{"start":10042.85,"end":10061.913,"text":"所以中正紀念堂就不在這個不義遺址的討論範圍之內跟委員做說明中正紀念堂始終不是不義遺址因為它是侵害人權的發生地那中正紀念堂並不是侵害人權的發生地所以它不是不義遺址好 不會來侵權的什麼什麼你剛剛說什麼 抱歉 次長"},{"start":10062.935,"end":10081.273,"text":"侵害人權的發聲地在不在不義遺址裡面我們未來會處理的部分不義遺址的定義就是侵害人權的發聲地對所以就是回歸到剛剛萬美玲一直在講的我們連這個名稱都沒有討論的時候其實呢這個我的建議也是保留謝謝"},{"start":10083.054,"end":10109.779,"text":"能討論的部分我還是做一個簡單的回覆因為包括林益菁委員 郭玉琴委員陳秀寶委員都有提議就是增加這個教育的部分那教育的部分就是我在一開始就說明其實轉型正義的教育是各部會都要負擔任務那但是如果要在這裡面強化文化部也要負擔這個任務我們是可以接受那不過只是要跟大家說其實每個部會都有在做所謂轉型正義或人權教育的推廣以上補充"},{"start":10111.792,"end":10136.15,"text":"雖然剛剛第三條我們保留可是大家其實版本都一樣除了時期不同可以看一下第三條第二項不議之旨行政院版本是威權統治時期國家為達成鞏固威權統治之目的所謂侵害人權事件之發生地具有歷史價值與轉型正義教育意義者鄭天才委員只是把那個時期加上一些還有原住民的部分強調可是大家都是強調侵害人權的發生地"},{"start":10140.273,"end":10167.664,"text":"那這條其實我也有版本那我的版本就是多了一項惠同教育主管機關推廣相關的轉型正義教育那為什麼我希望惠同那在這部分我也尊重文化部的看法那我想跟大家分享就是政治犯魏廷潮的兒子魏興勤他有寫過針對發生地怎麼火化的說法他說對我來說景美看守所龜山監獄土城的人愛莊等"},{"start":10169.125,"end":10186.702,"text":"都弥漫着窒息般的哀伤和一种很异样感的幸福在家人们悲伤愤怒以外其实他们给我们这两个孩子非常温暖的儿时回忆像是偷来一样的幸福和快乐让我忘记要走好远坐好久的车因为看得到爸爸笑眯眯脸庞的开心"},{"start":10187.222,"end":10210.243,"text":"如果你問我這些遺址要不要保留我希望能好好修整成一個和當地居民與國民們共生共好能永續經營的樣態建築物不一定要全部保留應該要朝永續經營的概念來思考他們存在越久越多人喜歡造訪越好我希望這些補遺址可以多元開放他們可以是小朋友奔跑玩耍的秘密基地"},{"start":10210.623,"end":10228.573,"text":"是藝術家使用的聚落空間地方李明來泡茶聊天的乘涼場所體驗政治受難者感受的教育場所他的父親就是未停朝政治犯我記得他是坐牢超過20年就是因為他寫了一個台灣人民自救宣言針對第四條第四條還有沒有要發言的"},{"start":10238.136,"end":10248.149,"text":"剛剛就是大家有不同的版本其實差異很小像我們我跟秀寶委員的我們的就是多了一個教育那這邊是不是文化部第四條"},{"start":10249.465,"end":10271.807,"text":"第四條我剛剛是回來提醒大家第三條雖然是保留我們只是時期有不同的看法可是不亦以止就是人權傷害人權的發生地是有一定的為什麼我們要再詢問一下因為我剛剛第三條處理完了因為回頭你又說第三條算是保留所以今天我都不太知道到底它就是保留還是算是保留它到底是個什麼情形"},{"start":10272.868,"end":10288.834,"text":"所以那是不是可以我們比較肯定的就是第三條現在是全條保留嘛第三條確定保留對對對但是我還是挺善心保留讀一下嘛因為它還是有定義所以中文紀念堂就不是這個遺址啊因為是傷害人權因為剛剛第三條已經處理完了啦對"},{"start":10294.838,"end":10323.954,"text":"那第四條文化部可不可以回應一下就是大家不一樣的部分好嗎對啊文條還是保留吧因為第三條也保留了第四條會連動的所以還是保留那文化部回應完之後我們就裁定一下要不要保留好不好第四條其實大家的意見沒有太大差異那關鍵就是要不要把轉型正義跟人權教育放進來那這一條文化部其實是覺得可以接受雖然其實各部會都有負擔這個責任但如果要在這裡特別強調我們也沒有意見"},{"start":10326.044,"end":10355.343,"text":"那所以文化部可以把教育的部分放進來是不是因為目前現在幾位委員的版本主要的差異就只有這個部分那這樣子大家還是覺得要保留嗎因為文化部可以接受因為我一直不認我還是沒有接受到所謂保存活化的意思是什麼未來而且還有那麼多個那麼多的地點嘛對不對所以呢必須要保留所以第三條是保留第四條當然也要保留第三條"},{"start":10355.523,"end":10381.312,"text":"我們要不再回應一下好不好 活化的部分你們可不可以說明一下不好意思 剛剛沒有回應委員針對保存活化第四條啦第三條有保留啊 次長我知道 我是說第四條對 第四條我建議也是要保留我是要回答委員對於保存活化的詢問因為我剛剛好像沒有回答這一題所以不用再回答了 好因為第十條也有特別針對保存活化做定義好"},{"start":10383.098,"end":10398.535,"text":"那第四條如果如果沒有委員要發言的話我其實是覺得可以不用保留但是委員一定要保留我們就保留好不好最後也許那我們進入第五條"},{"start":10400.297,"end":10423.921,"text":"第五條 除了我們11個委員之外還有林倩琦委員有修正動議第五條有哪位委員要發言好 高金素美委員好 第五條我們看到這個是主管機關為了要保護和審議不亦以止可以依照他的職權或接受提報進行調查所以他是調查的"},{"start":10424.421,"end":10444.074,"text":"但是我在裡頭跟行政院版本比較不一樣的就是說這個土地或者是這個要建物要接收的日本財產者應該也要配合調查那我的依據是什麼在這邊跟大家說明一下我們根據財政部財政史料層列示的資料"},{"start":10444.634,"end":10469.942,"text":"民國34年8月15號日本宣布無條件投降那麼他在台灣的公司產業歸中華民國政府來接收由於日本統治台灣大概達了50年之久中華民國政府為了要妥善接收日本財產由台灣行政長官公署跟警備總司令部他們共同組成了一個台灣省"},{"start":10471.182,"end":10487.434,"text":"軍事接收委員會並且他設立了日產處理委員會來專責處理日本財產的事宜第二個我要說明的是接收日產的類型分為三大類第一大類是日本政府的公有財產"},{"start":10489.295,"end":10509.407,"text":"第二個是日本人私有的財產以及企業財產例如台糖公司的大部分土地來源是接收於日本財產但是這些日本財產多數源自於原住民族的傳統領域土地"},{"start":10510.087,"end":10532.377,"text":"基于原住民族土地转型正义的立场对私人所有并且受调查的土地或者的建物应该视为接收日本财产理当纳入规范跟处理的范围而还有原转会就是在总统府里面有一个原转会的土地小组的历史调查"},{"start":10533.237,"end":10557.651,"text":"原住民族土地轉型正義委員會土地調查已經針對林業署、台堂、退府會等等機關取得原住民族傳統領域土地的歷史來進行調查並且已經提出報告了這些資料對於釐清相關歷史脈絡非常的重要這個也助於推動原住民族土地轉型正義的"},{"start":10558.992,"end":10573.329,"text":"進程然而接收日本財產跟原住民土地的關聯性有兩個例子我現在也說明給大家聽第一個就是台糖公司台糖公司它成立在1945年上海成立接收了日據時期的土地"},{"start":10573.849,"end":10589.644,"text":"然而原住民族傳統生活領域在當時被視為無主地我還是要把歷史遠遠講一下它直接歸給台唐土地1953年到1973年之間台唐公司辦理了五次的工地放領"},{"start":10591.005,"end":10615.75,"text":"因此原住民的土地因此大量流失這對原住民族的傳統領域的完整性造成非常重大的影響第二個例子就是日東紅茶1923年日本在今日的也就是現在的桃園大阪跟溫泉森林度假村一帶設立了東亞第一大的自茶廠"},{"start":10616.73,"end":10643.729,"text":"叫做大鲍茶厂同时在三的另一侧大鲍社传统领域的边界还设立了大辽茶厂这两间茶厂生产的日东红茶曾经名扬东亚但是它生产的基地实际上它是占用了原住民族传统领域所以我们这说明了殖民政策对土地资源的剥夺跟利用"},{"start":10644.329,"end":10673.464,"text":"以上我提的幾個例子充分的顯示日據時期日本財產的取得跟原住民族傳統領域的侵佔密切的相關所以我們應該要納為土地轉型正義的處理範疇來進一步還原歷史事實並且保障族群的權益以上做一些稍微長一點的歷史陳述也希望大家了解謝謝高金素美委員林一金委員要發言"},{"start":10677.071,"end":10703.547,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝主席第五條喔我跟院板的差異是院板是主管機關為保護及審議不遺址得依職權或接受提報是得那我是改成因喔那因為我想不遺址的保存經不起我們消極拖延那物理上不遺址可能會沒有及時保存而被破壞"},{"start":10704.247,"end":10726.039,"text":"那思想上我覺得歷史教育的推行也會因為拖延而受到阻礙甚至被遺忘所以我覺得這個積極度要有所以得要改成贏才能把轉型正義這個完整來做好 以上好 那第五條如果沒有別人要發言的話是不是請文化部回應一下"},{"start":10727.689,"end":10755.951,"text":"謝謝委員的指教這邊做個說明這一條的目的其實是在規範主管機關依職權接受提報之後進行調查所以對範圍的問題倒是沒有在這一條有所規範它應該是在剛剛的第三條跟第一條的部分來進行規範至於余經衛委員提到就是得改成因這件事因為整個對於保存活化的方式其實並不是以硬體的保存為主要的目標"},{"start":10756.631,"end":10779.58,"text":"就是在整個不易遺址的保存活化裡面它包括可以未來會在第十條看到它的保存方式包括這個樹立紀念碑或者是立下解說或者是數位虛擬的重建或者是辦理儀式因為有些地方它根本就沒有建物或遺構了那所以它其實比較不像文資就是有一個緊急性就是說如果你的"},{"start":10780.882,"end":10810.702,"text":"因為它不是以有形的這個建物作為保存的標的那我們為什麼建議還是用德是因為現在很多提報進來的其他並不太具有所謂我們在這裡定義的不移植的意義譬如說像現在很多它是用墓園那但是因為墓園並不是侵害人權的發生地它其實算是一個紀念場所我們就會用其他的法規用具有轉型正義其他意義去支持它但它就不會被列在所謂的不移植所以如果有一個德我們的主管機關在認定上面"},{"start":10811.302,"end":10832.554,"text":"會比較有空間去做適合他的認定所以我們比較是建議這個先不要改成因不然就是進來的案子我們都一律要展開調查會可能在人力上跟資源上會比較沒有辦法支撐以上說明 謝謝好 所以那個一經人可以接受還是用德是不是對"},{"start":10833.354,"end":10850.403,"text":"好 那這條黑魔委員要發言有啊 我剛剛 次長剛剛的說明對不起 我講了那麼長一段就是要讓大家知道它的因果所以呢 你們看一下第五條是主管機關為了要保護和審議不易以止"},{"start":10851.604,"end":10878.112,"text":"依職權或接受提報進行調查然後要建立個案資料然後再來接下來就是調查的土地或建物如果是私人所有要尊重他的意願所以要用適當的方式為之這些我都沒有意見但是我剛剛講了那麼長一段根據財政部史料層列式的資料非常多的土地是接收日本財產的"},{"start":10879.992,"end":10908.491,"text":"我認為這個都應該要配合調查而且這些資料都有所以在我的修正動議裡面但私人所有之受調查土地或建物為接收之日本財產證不在此限講白的意思就是說這個土地或者是建物如果它是接收的日本財產證也要配合調查所以這個部分如果有意見的話我認為也要保留謝謝"},{"start":10910.212,"end":10915.033,"text":"五條的部分我再說明一下它就是用促進轉型正義條例14條到17條來進行調查但是我們先決前提就已經錯誤了我們當初講說促進轉型正義那個時候就是因為"},{"start":10935.854,"end":10959.414,"text":"你們只有匡列到民國54年到民國81年嘛那你現在你第五條你又用這個你用促進轉型戰役那個時候的匡列的時間就已經跟我們一開始第三條也好或是說第一條也好我們討論的已經是不同了所以說我沒有辦法接受你用這樣子的部分應該是重啟全部的調查如果說我們在這一次所謂的不管是不義遺址或者是人權場域"},{"start":10961.913,"end":10989.012,"text":"這個條例通過之後那我們當然應該要重啟相關的一些調查部分那個時間點的格局要放大嘛所以在這一個部分上面我覺得這完全沒有辦法接受啊那你我不知道說公佈人這邊要怎麼樣去做調整因為你的本職行政院的版本你的先決框架你已經把自己框住就是民國34年以後嘛"},{"start":10989.537,"end":11000.41,"text":"但我們就一直強調從一開始今天早上九點到現在討論都已經是是不是要再更放遠所以說在這一條部分我覺得還是只能保留 謝謝那個郭育晴委員"},{"start":11001.892,"end":11026.25,"text":"好 這第五條剛剛就是文化部這邊有講那個因改就是還是用德啦就是基於這個資源跟人力的一個關係的配置但我發現其實我們大家其實在討論是不在同一個點上欸就是又有委員說要還是要再把這個日治時代再拉進來那其實根本跟我們講的所謂的不異議值的定義是完全不一樣的一個時間序啊"},{"start":11026.73,"end":11050.487,"text":"所以我不知道這個討論到底有沒有一個焦點然後再來我再說明一下我剛剛會用中正紀念堂是因為它是威權時期的象徵我講的是象徵並不是我把它解釋成它是不義遺址不是刑求也不是所謂的刑罰或者是執行審判的一個地方我沒有這樣講所以不要曲解我的意思以上"},{"start":11052.718,"end":11066.557,"text":"好 謝謝那個郭玉琴委員那這條如果沒有委員在發言的話那我看來我們就是 不會一直四個字喔就是說這個部分大家有不同的意見然後保留然後那我們第五條就保留"},{"start":11068.872,"end":11092.688,"text":"還有那個你是說還有高精素棉有一段也是跟時期有關因為它涉及到接收日本財產的私人所有財產者也一定要被調查嗎而且本來討論這個條例我之前就問過請教過部長部長也講是說它就跟促進轉型正義條例它其實是脫鉤的它沒有那麼直接的一個它不是延續性的立法"},{"start":11093.428,"end":11112.317,"text":"所以既然不是延續性的立法的話那我們當然不是說針對沒有 部長那時候回應的時候並不是延續性的立法所以說它是獨立的立法那既然是獨立的立法我們就需要好好的去來檢視就是說所謂的不義遺址或者說人權保障的一個部分好不好好 那個這部分部長有要回應嗎"},{"start":11126.288,"end":11138.356,"text":"剛才講說我曾經說過促進轉型正義條例跟這個脫鉤我沒有講過因為我知道我們這個法案是在促進轉型正義條例之下的執法我沒有講過"},{"start":11140.578,"end":11157.958,"text":"我想我們回去看促轉條例的話他其實就把相關這些保存不一直保存是交給文化部可是相關保存涉及到非常多的細節然後公有物跟私人財產這些都要明確的區分所以才會有今天這個法所以是不可能脫鉤的因為"},{"start":11160.3,"end":11186.645,"text":"促轉條例到現在為止並沒有修法嘛所以當然我們就還是就是依照他的定義國際的學者轉型的定義不過當然我知道有委員不同的意見那我們第五條就很明確知道是因為這樣所以我們第五條保留好嗎好那我們現在進入第六條第六條有那個三個修正動議是陳秀寶委員 萬美玲委員跟林建啟委員那有哪位委員要發言"},{"start":11188.422,"end":11212.728,"text":"好那個陳秀寶委員先然後那個張雅玲然後在那個高金素梅委員謝主席在這個第六條的部分是關於審議會成員的組成那我的修正綜議題的是在裡面要增加就是有涉及原住民主義的個案的時候審議會應該在額外的遴選在遴聘個案所屬原住民"},{"start":11213.208,"end":11242.508,"text":"主的代表那原民会代表以及原住民族文化相关的学者的来一起参与审议会能够更全面的观点来审议不议以此相关事项哦那我在这边增订的文字是涉及原住民族之个案时应在联聘个案所属原住民族代表原住民族主管机关代表及原住民族文化相关学者专家审议会委员任意性别不得少于三分之一以上"},{"start":11243.328,"end":11260.719,"text":"好 謝謝陳秀寶委員再來請那個張雅玲委員這條我的版本比較複雜啦就是我的第一項其實是正院版的第二項那我只是新增了因已主管機關作為審議會召集人的這一點那我的第二項也就是正院版的第一項"},{"start":11263.001,"end":11279.896,"text":"支援版的條文將審議會的功能劃分在審議不義一直和保存活化那我的條文還是加入了這個教育推廣的部分那我的條文後面有涉及到比較高強度的第十一條就是政府優先收購權那我認為就是執行重大工程的時候呢都也應該要經過審議會審議"},{"start":11283.959,"end":11307.304,"text":"那第十一條部分我待會在後面仔細說明那不過第三條也是我認為是最重要的部分因為今天鄭天才委員或是高金委員還有林倩琦委員都再三的強調原住民的這個重要性在我們的歷史上面的一個重要性那我也認為我們必須要從原住民的視角來去檢視這一段歷史也要去找原住民族一起來參與"},{"start":11308.644,"end":11336.48,"text":"所以呢也就是說當不義遺址涉及到原住民族時應該要比照原住民族的文化資產的處理辦法的第八條來邀請我們原住民族和相關的團體參與調查和審議的過程這一點我是非常的堅持因為政院的決議將不義遺址和既有的文化資產法規系統來分開處理的時候那麼在處理原住民族相關的不義遺址的"},{"start":11338.487,"end":11355.829,"text":"如果沒辦法用原住民族的文資法來處理的時候就會變成我們在審議原住民族相關不義子時法規沒有規定我們要質詢原住民族意見的時候那我就很有擔心他到時候可能會被審略所以這一點我是覺得非常重要的謝謝"},{"start":11356.55,"end":11375.357,"text":"好 謝謝張雅琳委員再來我們請高津素美委員等一下林怡婧好 第一條謝謝雅琳委員的重視還有您的建議我也認同那在我的修正動議條文裡面既然是這樣我把文字就寫得非常的清楚前項審議會由主管機關林聘歷史案件受難者具有轉型專業文化資產我們都發現"},{"start":11377.958,"end":11406.505,"text":"原住民族的歷史相關專業的人其實目前已經非常多了但是只要一談到不管是轉型任意原住民的議題這些人都沒有參與所以我在那個條文裡面就直接加了一個原住民族歷史相關的專業或實務經驗的社會公正人士或者是學者專家然後接著下來就是不具官方身份的代表人數不得已少了委員總人數的二分之一"},{"start":11407.225,"end":11430.055,"text":"然後涉及到原住民族的博弈遺址原住民的代表總人數不得少於我原總人數的三分之一然後接著再來就是博弈遺址是只要是涉及到原住民族重大歷史事件它的相關事項辦法應該要由主管機關會同原民會主管機關來定之這個不是有案例所以我要請大家看一下"},{"start":11431.575,"end":11458.241,"text":"這個案例就是我們最近才剛剛審照的海洋保育法的第八條這個法裡面就規定了在海洋庇護區的審議會裡面原住民的代表總人數寫得非常清楚是不得於少於委員總人數的三分之一這樣子的規範其實就是為了要平衡族群代表性而且也是一個成功案例所以也可以作為制定相關法案時的重要參考"},{"start":11459.381,"end":11480.06,"text":"所以我認為把這些元素明文規定還有這個名稱寫得非常清楚有助於來彌補歷史的遺漏然後增強原住民族參與的代表性跟專業性我們可以讓這個轉型正義的推動更加全面性而且具包容性以上的說明 謝謝好 謝謝林議員請發言"},{"start":11483.943,"end":11508.825,"text":"謝謝主席第六條本席這裡是有文字的修正建議就是說在臨聘審議會委員的部分希望在政治案件受難者的文字前加上威權統治時期所以具體的建議就是威權統治時期政治受難者以求這個定義的明確以上 謝謝好 謝謝再來請鄭天才委員請發言"},{"start":11510.386,"end":11526.546,"text":"我的版本這個是在第二項的部分跟行政院版本不一樣那也謝謝雅琳有特別把原住民族的部分納入進去我的第二項是前項審議由主管機關臨聘"},{"start":11528.548,"end":11553.697,"text":"歷史案件 我是寫歷史案件行政院的版本是政治案件歷史案件受難者 既有轉型正義文化資產原住民族群歷史相關專業或實務經驗之社會公正人士或學者專家及官代表組成任意性別不得少於三分之一那這個第三項的部分 我在後段的部分"},{"start":11554.497,"end":11569.01,"text":"特別提到不宜以此涉及原住民族重大歷史事件其相關事項辦法由主管機關會同中央原住民族主管機關定之請大家能夠支持以上謝謝好 謝謝羅廷薇委員請發言"},{"start":11572.179,"end":11593.438,"text":"好那第六條這個部分剛剛大家都在討論有關於就是代表的部分那我想包括秀寶委員還有其他委員有提到這個原住民增加原住民的一個代表那當然我們認同那但第二個我要跟大家特別報告的是包括228其實在客家政治的一個案件也是非常的多數不勝數"},{"start":11594.639,"end":11614.446,"text":"所以我也要拜託就是如果有牽扯到客家的部分希望有客家代表那這個部分也希望大家一起來支持謝謝好謝謝羅廷輝委員那這個部分我也說明一下我的版本我的版本也是在任意性別不得少於三分之一之後就是院版這個之後加了一個審議"},{"start":11615.506,"end":11630.957,"text":"一涉及原住民族之個案時因額外聆聘個案所涉原住民族之代表據點其他部分跟院版的是一樣的所以針對大家不同的部分是不是文化部哪一位要說明一下"},{"start":11632.881,"end":11651.747,"text":"跟委員周說明委員剛所提到的針對審議委員會的組成包括有原住民客家或者是性別這些原則其實我們有立一個執法它跟我們當初在文字法審議委員會的做法是類似的就是會有一個不一一指審議作業及審議會組織運作辦法所以在那個辦法裡面是規範"},{"start":11656.769,"end":11681.491,"text":"這個組織成員的背景那所以我的建議會是說是不是這個對於成員的背景因為本來我們在辦法裡面也是這樣規定就是他牽涉到誰那這裡面的審議委員就要有誰譬如他牽涉到原住民他就要有原住民他牽涉到客家就要有客家他如果牽涉到政治受難者譬如說228的政治受難者那就要有228最好是有政治受難者的家屬或代表那如果沒有也要這方面的學者他本來在"},{"start":11682.563,"end":11701.981,"text":"组成的背景内容上面就是这样去规范的所以我是建议说这一条是不是可以类似像做成附带决议让我们在定定执法的时候把这个部分都放进去这样子我们不用在母法里面就写得非常的清楚那包括各目的事业主管机关因为刚刚我们在第二条的讨论已经把各目的事业主管机关放进来"},{"start":11702.361,"end":11728.067,"text":"所以更目的是業主管機關在這一條如果牽涉到原則上他就會被放進審議委員會那至於官方代表少於二分之一或者是性別比例不得超過任意單一性別不得少於三分之一這大概都是基本的他本來就一定會在這一類的審議委員會裡面一定做成規範所以我的建議是不是可以變成是一個附帶決議或者是說明讓我們在執法裡面以這一條做拘束去訂定執法的組成成員的內容"},{"start":11729.672,"end":11758.753,"text":"所以文化部這裡是告訴大家說其實他們的執法涉及不同族群不管是剛剛羅廷偉講的客家或者是我們很多委員關心的原住民的就會有那個族群的代表在審議委員這是他的一個基本的規定那如果大家不放心的話可以用附帶決議或者放在法條說明中處理那不知道大家對這樣高金素美委員我有一件既然你們這辦法跟裡面都有的話為什麼不在法條上就沒有規定了呢"},{"start":11759.413,"end":11782.897,"text":"好不好我的建議如果在法體上沒有任何的你就就針對這我是不是就是針對大家包括客家的這個就是把它放在裡面好不好看一下文字怎麼怎麼說把大家的意見這個大概可能感覺上是比較沒有意見把客家也好原名也好還有人數也好或者是有原住民族歷史相關專業實務經驗的社會工作這好像沒有意見"},{"start":11786.078,"end":11812.456,"text":"那是不是看文字把大家一直把它放進來然後整理成一條好 那那個羅廷威委員好 那基本上我的態度也是一樣既然你的附帶決議跟執法你有說到已經有這樣子的一個原本的一個辦法了那就把它入母法嘛並不會造成說變成母法就會自愛難行那當然我要再另外提出我希望我們對於這一個"},{"start":11814.857,"end":11840.451,"text":"當事者不管是原名客家性別我們都關注希望他們能夠為其發聲我們也希望這個審議委員會裡面的政黨代表不能有可以更多元性讓各個聲音少數的政黨任何的政黨都有發言的機會我也希望能夠寫在這個裡面政黨的代表是不是能夠也多元然後不要有特定"},{"start":11842.725,"end":11849.039,"text":"好 這部分還有沒有人要發言好 那個林倩琪再講雅玲"},{"start":11850.458,"end":11877.294,"text":"好 謝謝教委我這邊也是呼籲一下剛才羅委員這邊所講的但是我還是回到原本我們剛才討論的這個部分第一這個部分還是討論到這個所謂不義於止那雖然這個文化部這邊有談到說相關的這個法律裡面比如說文資法可能有一些訂定那如果是這樣子我們其實又回到那這整個在文資法裡面去做討論也是一個類別嘛所以今天我們討論的"},{"start":11878.234,"end":11893.953,"text":"在一個重要的主旨上就是我們這個名稱未定就會牽扯到剛才文化部這邊所談到的這個政治案件的受難者那這個其實羅委員這邊講的也很有道理如果你們的版本是談到政治那這個"},{"start":11895.074,"end":11915.264,"text":"政黨比例被列入進去應該是很基礎的考量可是如果考量到剛才我們政委員這邊的版本他談到的是歷史事件這其實就呼應到我們從一開始在討論的在時間軸上還有主體性上還有這個族群上其實我們在這個部分還是回應到"},{"start":11916.277,"end":11935.506,"text":"我們講的這個法條最重要的一個基礎嘛到底你是要談這個整個歷史事件不同時期發生的被壓迫那還是針對某一段事件然後有某一些立場上不同所謂的正義或不義這還是回到基本的問題所以我的訴求還是保留"},{"start":11936.586,"end":11953.639,"text":"好 那個張雅玲委員要發言好 那其實我自己也是蠻希望就是說這個東西原住民的部分我還是希望可以入法那我想我唸一下第三項讓相關的委員可以聽聽看我是不是接受我的這個版本就是說當然不議職的部分大家都有各自的爭議但是我想"},{"start":11954.48,"end":11968.086,"text":"後面就是說審議涉及原住民組織事務時因會同原住民族主管機關並邀請所屬的原住民族部落其他傳統組織及利益團體原住民族文化資產相關專家學者及審議會委員辦理現場會刊或訪查"},{"start":11973.628,"end":11997.46,"text":"來彙整意見做成現場勘查或訪查結果記錄及邀請前述團體及個人參與審議程序但無法知悉所屬部落或其他傳統組織及利益團體者不在此限我覺得這個版本可能會相對來說是更完整的去保障原住民的發聲的這個權利啦所以我也希望說在這個部分如果在除了名詞的爭議之外後面的部分是不是大家可以一起來支持這樣"},{"start":11999.824,"end":12015.432,"text":"謝謝張雅玲委員那如果沒有其他委員在發言我們再請文化部回應一下謝謝各位委員的關心先跟各位說明其實這一條誠如各位所說的它的問題會發生在到底那個範圍的界定因為這一條我們並不是以這個"},{"start":12017.393,"end":12044.247,"text":"這要是純粹規範程序而不據論它是哪個族群或者因為什麼理由那它的規範程序的意思就是說只要有牽涉到這一個類型的人權侵害案件那就要有這個類型的代表來進入審議委員會那所以我們為什麼是說在這個審議會組織辦法裡面在做第一個當然就是說母法跟子法它本來就有法系架構的橫平性那如果在母法裡面就規範審議運作的細節就反而會表"},{"start":12047.208,"end":12071.233,"text":"變成掛一漏完就會變成說如果我在無法裡面沒有規範的那我是不是就可以不用遵守那只有在執法裡面才需要遵守那這樣其實是沒有什麼道理應該是把強勁的規範都放進執法的運作規範裡面使得它的在代表跟組成的決定上是比較清楚的那另外特別有提到就是說因為政黨並不被我們當作一個族群那因為"},{"start":12072.193,"end":12097.218,"text":"做出侵害人權的執政者有可能是任何一個政黨那所以我們並沒有把政黨作為一個代表比例放進去因為在做侵害人權的時候政黨不管是哪一個黨可能都會是一個需要反省跟檢討的對象所以是不是可以懇請委員支持我們把這些文字我們做一個確認就是我們做一些作業然後我們把這些文字放進這個組織運作辦法裡面去做規範這樣子在"},{"start":12101.539,"end":12125.587,"text":"明確度上跟執行上 因為它是執行法這個執法基本上就是運作的執行的執法那它會比較有完整詳盡的去規範真正可以執行的方式是不是可以拜託委員好 文化部還是希望說能夠授權他們放在執行的辦法中那因為他們現在本來就是這樣在執行那那個 張雅琳委員要發言"},{"start":12127.649,"end":12146.17,"text":"我想我的部分如果要把一些的內容落入執法我沒有意見但是我希望精神上我們是不是還可以去彰顯這些原住民族的意志我們這個精神是不是還可以怎麼樣去縮減濃縮把這個精神可以呈現在母法上面好 這個部分我們可以做到"},{"start":12147.145,"end":12166.241,"text":"OK那所以做到所以是文化部等一下會給我們一個文字嗎把這些文字做一些精簡之後看是不是大家都如果同意的話我們就讓他把它放進執法裡面可以嗎但是或者是說要用附帶決議來做不急著現在提文字當然對我們來說更好那個高精素美委員要發言嗎"},{"start":12168.427,"end":12185.897,"text":"我的建議是這樣子我認為就是曾天才委員的第二項那個部分歷史這個部分因為我們也談到不僅僅是原住民包括客家族群所以是不是用各族群的歷史相關然後第三項部分我覺得雅琳的那個不錯"},{"start":12187.337,"end":12214.389,"text":"不錯但是啞鈴那個但無法知悉所屬部落或其他傳統組織及利益團體則不再此現這個在部落是不會發生的但你前面那個文字社可以都按照您的那個本本所以我的建議是不是參照這個鄭天才委員的那個部分我們把它列為各族群然後第三項部分用啞鈴的部分但啞鈴的部分那個但無法知悉那個部分可以刪掉"},{"start":12215.924,"end":12243.849,"text":"我建議還是在法條裡面訂定啦不是在附帶決議或者是辦法裡面謝謝那看起來這條大家對於要不要把就是說族群就是要放在那個條文中就是有不同的意見那這部分我們是不是其他的部分好像看起來都有共識嘛就是族庭的部分那我們是不是這個第六條也先保留"},{"start":12245.663,"end":12260.872,"text":"好 OK好 那我們進入那個因為其他的有討論過大家至少更有共識了好 我們現在進入第七條第七條修正動議有那個陳秀寶委員跟林倩琦委員的那第七條有哪位委員要發言陳秀寶委員然後等一下是張雅玲委員"},{"start":12267.217,"end":12284.217,"text":"謝謝主席第七條是關於不義移植審議通過去公告及救濟那不義移植其實經審議會審議通過後由文化部公告那但是如果這個場域是私人所有也會影響到當事人的權益因此呢將私有的不義移植所有人"},{"start":12284.517,"end":12304.89,"text":"或是内涵关系人对于被认定为不一只是行政处分如果有不符的时候他们可以依法的提起救济民定于这个条文里面让民众知悉就是他们相关的权益也落实民众财产权的保障所以在第七条的部分我对说中间更容易提的版本是"},{"start":12305.931,"end":12307.733,"text":"就把这个相关的权益明定在里面以上"},{"start":12325.692,"end":12341.53,"text":"好謝謝秀寶委員再來張雅玲委員好那其實我的部分也是去強化了啦就是有關於教育推廣的五個字那一樣就是來去希望去彰顯推廣不移植的積極性謝謝好謝謝高金素美委員"},{"start":12342.151,"end":12362.717,"text":"我簡單講一下第七條跟我修正動議第五條一樣原因是因為接收的日本財產自然是要納入規範的範圍所以我在後面有加第二項第二項裡面有私人不義遺址未接收之日本財產者依公有不義遺址規定來辦理但是行政院版本是輔導"},{"start":12365.718,"end":12392.206,"text":"謝謝高精素美委員那如果這條沒有別的委員要發言的話是不是請文化部也回應一下這些版本跟委員做報告這一條修法委員在提到公告的這個部分可以依據就提起行政訴訟這件事情有兩件事要說明第一個對於私有的不予移植的公告因為我們在第九條有規範因為它是考慮所謂公益性與必要性而且是尊重"},{"start":12393.646,"end":12419.994,"text":"現況的土地漁或建築所有人意願在對財產權侵害最小的情況下為之所以他原則上很可能只做公告而沒有其他的動作如果這個財產權的所有人並不同意的話那第二個就是說本來行政訴訟這件事情就是人民的權益他只要不服他都可以提起那在這裡面明文規定會有一個狀況可能要請委員幫忙橫著的就是說"},{"start":12420.894,"end":12441.588,"text":"意思就是說如果他對公告本身都可以提起行政訴訟也就是我們對歷史事實的陳述因為公告基本上他可能就是在網站上做個公告在這個我們的論述上或者是未來我們的出版品上可能會列出但他如果可以對公告本身就提出行政救濟的話意思就是說他是可以把這個史實抹消的"},{"start":12442.088,"end":12463.309,"text":"就是他可以說沒有我不願意接受這個公告那所以這個行政訴訟是不是要這樣規範可能請委員再做審酌那其他對於教育推廣的部分我想我們就跟前例一樣我們其實是可以支持的那你要不要回應高金素美委員的那個日治時期財產的那個部分"},{"start":12465.287,"end":12492.634,"text":"第五條跟第七條其實呢我都放了日據時期的因為我剛剛已經講過了接收日本財產可以分為日本政府和公有財產日本人的私有財產還有企業財產這三種那這三種呢如果要歸咎我們的那個傳統領域的部分的話是要講得非常的清楚所以呢接收的日本財產自然當然要納入規範的範圍以上謝謝那個等神秀堡委員講完再一起回應秀堡委員"},{"start":12493.832,"end":12510.608,"text":"謝謝主席那我再問一次就是說剛才次長您的回答就是說這個不義遺址他如果審議過後他只是公告他並不是一定會實質上的對這個財產所有人有他的權益或侵犯檔他只是公告而已"},{"start":12513.647,"end":12526.024,"text":"私有的部分有可能因為私有的部分會尊重財產所有權人的意願而且他是對財產侵害最小的方式所以如果他都拒絕的話有可能職能公告了解那我這樣接受你們的說明謝謝"},{"start":12528.667,"end":12551.29,"text":"所以關於私人財產的部分 秀寶委員接受文化部的解釋跟版本那關於就是 現在就是高金素美委員這邊有那個關於接收日本財產者要依公有不義遺址規定辦理這部分那個文化部有沒有回應如果他一旦是接收變成公有的部分他就會變成是公有的 他就會是強制的"},{"start":12554.008,"end":12567.515,"text":"但是私有的部分我們還是會建議是尊重財產權所有人不然的話如果是私有的部分我們會變成是侵害財產權那這件事在法議上面有點難以好理解所以我剛剛才會花很多的時間把這個"},{"start":12569.136,"end":12593.881,"text":"国业财产局的历史的公告让大家清楚知道我还是在讲一下不管台坛公司或者是我刚刚提的一个例子叫做日东红茶就是大报社的茶厂大家都知道这段历史小树那个头目其实现在这个茶厂就是他的土地他的子女都清楚知道所以你说他现在是不是失言是他是因为他被转手卖了三五次"},{"start":12594.961,"end":12613.716,"text":"那我們要找誰呢 現在是變成私人的啊所以我才會說 如果有意見的話就保留嘛好不好 謝謝那第七條喔 我們其他大家都有共識那就是高清素美委員那個要不要規範喔接收日本財產 依公有不依止規定那個部分我們因為這樣保留好嗎第七條我們就很知道保留原因了好那個保留之外 法務部能夠研究嗎法務部是不是可以回應一下"},{"start":12625.421,"end":12637.576,"text":"好 那我聽 好 他們聽到了他們在場好 那再來我們進入第8條第8條只有林建基委員一個人修正動議那其他的都已經整理在這裡第8條有沒有哪位委員要發言如果沒有的 林益勤委員 好"},{"start":12646.582,"end":12667.081,"text":"對 第八條我是在第三項喔跟院版不同喔只差在我的那個第三項裡面的文字是第一項保存活化計畫知擬定這是院版那我是知擬定與執行因自主管機關公告怎樣怎樣就是說公告"},{"start":12667.861,"end":12684.393,"text":"兩年內完成那本來院版是只有在擬定要公告兩年內完成我是加執行那當然我是覺得擬定計畫我們被規定要在程序內完成時間內完成那執行也應該要儘速辦理"},{"start":12687.595,"end":12707.697,"text":"不然然後我說擬定計劃有限定時程然後在執行的部分卻沒有被規定時程所以這個其實也是期待說整個工有補益於止的保存跟活化的執行進度要加強以上好 謝謝郭玉琴委員 下一個張雅琳委員"},{"start":12709.655,"end":12734.401,"text":"這個部分我跟這個易經委員是一樣的就是擬定之後我多了一個執行啦那還是要提醒這個文化部在審定作業的規範跟人力要逐步的到位所以這個部分其實就是希望在預計115年能夠完成全處大概有64處的這個不易移植的一個公告然後也希望資源用在對的地方就是時間不要計畫不要拖延以上"},{"start":12736.44,"end":12749.7,"text":"好 謝謝張雅玲委員好 那這一條我的其實大致相同啦只是我一樣是在第一項加了教育推廣和符合轉型正義的精神那為什麼要特別強調符合轉型正義的精神是因為防止"},{"start":12750.942,"end":12772.927,"text":"防止有不孝业者或是申请人透过申请补助的方式却执行与转型正义或不义遗址无关之活动甚至对遗址有伤害跟损害的装修方式这部分应该要透过法条来去做限制那第二项的部分呢其实在后面的条文都有规定主管机关可以补助"},{"start":12773.587,"end":12785.247,"text":"那這邊多一項我是不特別反對啦只是提醒大家後面其實已經有授權你們可以訂立補助規範了那第三項我一樣是加入了教育推廣的計畫另外也在條文中加入要經審議會審議"},{"start":12787.901,"end":12816.149,"text":"好 這是因為我把後面的保存活化的計畫應將這個審議會審議的條文定錄在這一條裡面這樣子謝謝好 謝謝那第八條如果沒有委員要針對自己版本發言的話是不是請文化部那個林倩琦委員抱歉好 謝謝昭緯那我還是一樣在這個定義上不輕那剛才這個活化的這個計畫文化部講的好像也跟我們文資法沒有太大的差異的話那我覺得這個部分我還是"},{"start":12817.389,"end":12844.66,"text":"建議保留那我們是還是先請那個文化部回應好 針對委員的幾個提案先做說明第一個就是林基委員跟郭慧琼委員針對這個執行變成是擬定的部分加上執行那這部分特別說明一下因為它跟文資的不同是在於說它其實不是以有形資產為保護的關鍵那所以它的執行是不是要"},{"start":12845.6,"end":12860.157,"text":"要怎麼列入這個擬定跟執行2加1的這個規範裡面其實即使是在文資都沒有這麼高強度的一個規定就連文資都沒有加入執行那原因是說譬如說它的保存方式如果是虛擬的重建"},{"start":12862.259,"end":12886.184,"text":"這也是可以被允許的在這裡但是如果它是毀損的話就剛剛委員有關心就是有其他的張海琳委員有關心那如果是毀損的話基本上毀損會有罰則包括它是一個刑事的責任所以它是一個很高強度的毀損的懲處那所以在這裡在執行上我們的判斷是即使這樣規範了恐怕就會使得很多的管理機關"},{"start":12888.965,"end":12913.279,"text":"他就更没有意愿提出一个愿意好好规划跟花时间去处理的保存文化计划他可能就会提出一个比较低强度的很容易的比如他就设立告示牌就结束或者是他就写一篇解说就结束那这个是我们比较不希望看到的我们比较希望可以辅导这些管理机关都可以有相对应比较完整跟具有推广跟扩散教育价值的这一类的方案"},{"start":12913.719,"end":12943.039,"text":"所以其實請委員考量是不是不要把執行跟計劃擬定的這個年限綁在一起這樣那另外那個對於範圍的部分我就不再重複就是的確就是我們希望我們現在目前的脈絡都是在既有的不易移植跟的定義之下所做的一些規範的範圍好那這個部分那個剛剛張雅玲委員這些有版本可以接受文化部的解釋嗎就是執行的部分張雅玲委員"},{"start":12945.964,"end":12956.961,"text":"喂 抱歉所以聽起來就是維持原提案嘛不建議再加上這些條件嘛這樣才能夠去增加更多的可能大家更積極的作為是嗎 是這樣子嗎這是我們的判斷 對"},{"start":12959.574,"end":12979.601,"text":"好 謝謝所以你們都同意嗎 那個林怡婷兩位同意所以我們第八條還是有委員希望保留就除了不亦以此定義之外其他的委員都對條文接受文化部的版本但是我們第八條因為不亦以此四個字定義跟其他條文一樣我們因為這個原因保留 這樣清楚了我們現在進入第九條"},{"start":12984.261,"end":12996.308,"text":"第九條是關於私有不義遺址的保存活化第九條那個張雅玲是第九條跟第十條其他委員的版本都是第九條那林建啟委員有修正動議"},{"start":12997.984,"end":13022.21,"text":"好 那第九條針對私有那個高金素美委員要發言好 親戚委員那個修正動議就是我們一起的所以第五條 第七條 第九條都保留了所以我認為第五 第七條都保留第九條一樣保留對於私人不義遺址為接收之日本財產證準用前條之規定所以它是有聯動的以上 謝謝好 那個張雅玲委員請"},{"start":13023.61,"end":13052.873,"text":"好 我的這一條呢主要是在第二項我新增了專業諮詢和協助擬定執行計畫可以委任民間團體來辦理一方面我認為是可以減輕行政部門的人力負擔因為隨著我們未來可能會有越來越多的這些不義遺址那我希望是可以來在法規裡面訂的這個部分那第二個方面也是讓我們的民間有更多的機會和管道可以來參與相關的不義遺址保存工作同時也可以讓公民團體擔任第三方的監督計畫角色"},{"start":13054.255,"end":13061.292,"text":"那我的修改的部分大概是这样谢谢谢谢张亚玲林一经委员要发言"},{"start":13064.873,"end":13086.975,"text":"第九條 私有不義遺址的保存跟活化是不義遺址保存跟標示上稍微困難的地方那畢竟它涉及人民的財產權那我認為基於不義遺址保存的歷史教育意義我們應該以利多的方式來鼓勵私有不義遺址財產所有人"},{"start":13088.815,"end":13106.381,"text":"並在文化部的監督下進行標示所以本席認為如果可行的話是否能將給予獎勵或補助的條文文字改為因著予獎勵或補助之而不是用"},{"start":13107.541,"end":13132.969,"text":"得選擇性的決定要不要給獎勵或補助當然這一切還是要經過審議才能發放獎補助只是希望可以透過更大的誘因來鼓勵私有不義遺址財產所有人來提報以求這個不義遺址建立的完整性另外如果參考文資法第27條第二項的規定本席的版本有新增第九條對 第五項這一條的第五項"},{"start":13136.191,"end":13162.292,"text":"內容是私有不義以止之所有人使用人或管理人提出第二項之計畫有困難時主管機關應主動協助擬定保存活化計畫所有人對於其財產被主管機關認定為不義以止之行政處分不符時得依法提起訴願及行政訴訟"},{"start":13164.994,"end":13188.869,"text":"這部分就是剛剛我提及的畢竟私有不義遺址日常的管理維護是它能否永續保存跟活化的重要關鍵簡單來講我還是希望主管單位文化部在處理不義遺址的態度要認真積極至於在第六項的部分是考量到私有不義"},{"start":13189.67,"end":13206.513,"text":"以止這個財產所有人的行政救濟因為雖然文化部有回應說這部分應該不用徵定可是我想說跟我參考文資法第九項的這個案例有關於私有產權如果需要行政救濟的部分那建議也明定入法以上"},{"start":13207.779,"end":13230.925,"text":"好 那針對這個第九條私有不移植部分保存文化那如果沒有別的提案要說明的話文化部是不是回應一下好 謝謝委員在這一題我們大概幾項一起說明第一個是詹哈林委員這邊提到協助擬定執行計畫或委辦等等那這個我們的建議是說是不是能夠讓我們提供諮詢或者是這個保存文化的這個"},{"start":13234.265,"end":13249.234,"text":"執行的範例就好原因是因為說如果我們這樣寫下去的話就會變成各管理機關可能都覺得擬定這個計畫是文化部的責任那事實上那個範圍的大小跟他要執行的範圍恐怕不是文化部單一可以去執行的"},{"start":13249.634,"end":13267.983,"text":"那至於說可以去委辦地方自治團體或者委託這個是當然的本來他們就可以委託其實即使沒有這個文字本來就活化保存幾乎也都是透過很多只要他如果真的要營運的話幾乎都是要透過委託來進行的那另外就是因為如果我們明顯在這裡就會變成說我們會出現一批中間團體"},{"start":13271.024,"end":13282.901,"text":"那我們覺得其實沒有這個必要 因為本來現在就有關係的民間團體是適合做這件事的不用再出現一個中間團體的代理 這樣會多了一關那第二就是在 已經委員提到就是"},{"start":13284.504,"end":13311.67,"text":"並因著於獎勵或補助我們還是建議不要這樣寫為什麼是因為這樣寫的原因這樣寫的狀況就是他只要提我就非得補不可就是我沒有不補他的空間就是我著於我只能說補多補少但我不能不補所以那我們本來寫的就是本來我們就要得提供獎勵或補助那基本上會有一個判準所以我們會建議保留這個判準讓我們可以來做一些確認它是不是適合這個"},{"start":13312.87,"end":13318.825,"text":"而不移植的狀態的條件然後第三個就是在對第五項第六項的部分"},{"start":13320.1,"end":13348.768,"text":"第五項跟雅琳委員提的是類似的就是都希望說我們可以主動協助那我在這裡一樣就是我希望說那個主動協助指的是我們提供諮詢或者是範例那不要直接寫說是我們協助擬定因為這個狀況真的很容易變成都是我們在擬定那這個我們其實對在地的這個條件不理解的話或者是這個研究不完整的話其實那個任務會沒有辦法擴散反而是更集中向文化部那量能上會受到比較大的影響"},{"start":13349.608,"end":13368.903,"text":"那另外對於行政的訴訟就剛剛已經有做過說明不過在這一題上請大家稍微看一下第九條的法文第九條法文在私有的部分它的條件限制非常嚴格它要考量公益性、必要性而且是尊重現況土地進入所有全人意願而且是對財產權侵害最小的原則"},{"start":13369.443,"end":13386.253,"text":"所以他鎖定的條件強度非常的高那如果在這些條件下還有行政訴訟的話在這裡的法文脈絡下好像是變成保存活化計畫如果我們要求他修正或否定他的保存活化計畫他也可以提起行政訴訟那這樣的危機就會有點大就變成是說他如果說主管機關認為這保存活化計畫"},{"start":13391.556,"end":13408.352,"text":"不qualify那他還可以提起行政訴訟說不行我就一定要這樣那這個恐怕會造成在管理權上面的一個混亂所以這個部分我們導致建請可以不用再把行政法的行政訴訟放在這裡因為他本來就是他人民應有的權利以上"},{"start":13412.043,"end":13432.377,"text":"好 謝謝張雅玲委員跟林英杰委員對於剛剛文化部的說明有沒有要回應的我想因為在這個剛剛諮詢的部分感謝文化部接受不過我覺得後面這一段我不堅持但是我還是希望可以去強調一個概念就是說如何讓第三方的公民團體可以一起來監督"},{"start":13433.738,"end":13452.08,"text":"因為事實上現在的確是稍微整個時程上面行政流程上面大家態度上面都會有一點點推脫跟怠惰啦所以我們還是希望說有一個第三方的單位可以進來讓公民團體可以持續的來監督所以這部分看要怎麼樣的去做調整"},{"start":13454.673,"end":13477.458,"text":"我的建議是我們是不是可以在立法說明裡面加入第三方團體那我也建議把那個監督改成參與可以嗎因為對於民間團體來說我們比較希望的是我們成為夥伴關係一起做那有他們的參與不管是任何形式的參與我想都是可以的那如果直接用監督的話會形成一個直接就是對立的關係那也會造成管轄權上面的一些混淆以上"},{"start":13479.653,"end":13499.313,"text":"就是加在立法說明的意思那所以就是張雅玲委員那個部分就第三方文化部建議加在立法說明當中這樣是否我再想一下好不好你再想一下沒關係那那個林益菁委員針對剛剛文化部的說明就是那個訴訟的部分還有那個要不要鼓勵獎勵私有財產的人的部分"},{"start":13504.482,"end":13516.433,"text":"他尊重那高精順美委員我再有不同的意見就是針對那個日製日本接收日本財產的部分你還是堅持嘛對不對那因為張阿玲委員要想一下那我想我們就"},{"start":13518.171,"end":13539.321,"text":"好 等一下再回來好 那反正我們第九條也就是先保留啦 好不好好 那對我保留那我們很清楚就是張阿玲委員那個部分第三方的部分還有那個高新樹委員那個私人不亦以止為接收之日本財產者就是那其他的部分就是大家都同意文化部的版本我們這樣清楚一點 好"},{"start":13539.941,"end":13565.682,"text":"那我們現在有一條第11條是張雅玲委員的版本是插在這中間的請大家看一下那張雅玲委員要不要說明好我來說明一下就是說在這一個版本裡面呢我們是在因為這條我們是在談公司有不義一直保存活化和教育推廣計畫的公開補助執行等等的辦法授權主管機關可以來去決定嘛"},{"start":13567.375,"end":13571.525,"text":"那第十條怎麼好像…原本不是有第十條嗎?"},{"start":13573.035,"end":13597.087,"text":"第十條怎麼不見了你的第十條剛剛併在前面喔因為我以為抱歉我以為你沒有特別要發言抱歉抱歉因為剛剛我有宣告你的是九跟十在前面我剛剛沒有聽到併在第十條了好那第十一條來那第十一條就是說最主要是參考了文資法第32條是指說我們私有的文化資產在所有權轉讓前要先通知主管機關啦而除了繼承之外政府可以以相同的條件優先購買"},{"start":13598.268,"end":13613.19,"text":"不移植因為它現在的一些現存和保存條件其實和文化資產不太一樣所以才需要訂特別的一個條例但是不移植和文化資產也有一些狀況是很類似的就是有很多所有權是在私人手上就例如是台中的和平這個"},{"start":13620.213,"end":13635.297,"text":"這部分我不建議採取徵收的手段而是採取文化資產的優先承購權的一個概念只有當所有權是以繼承方式以外進行轉移的時候政府才可以優先承購那當然這一條也是給予主管機關彈性"},{"start":13637.037,"end":13651.218,"text":"因為是用得而不是用因決定權還是在主管機關手上如果主管機關評估不應成構也不一定要發動這一條只是當私有的不移植要被買賣的時候呢讓主管機關有一個法源可以來行動"},{"start":13652.648,"end":13667.815,"text":"所以這一條的原意呢重點就是在於尊重私有的財產權跟保存不義遺址之間試圖找到一個平衡點讓政府有工具可以來去保護不義遺址同時也尊重了所有權者的產權"},{"start":13670.049,"end":13684.425,"text":"那個第十一條這個部分因為文化部版本沒有你們要不要回應一下能不能接受張雅玲委員這個建議加入這個跟委員說明這個我知道委員在這個版本是利益良善是為了要怕這個不一致受到受到遺忘但"},{"start":13685.786,"end":13712.681,"text":"我要誠實的說其實有這個法條我們恐怕也很難執行因為當這個德醫同樣條件購買其實我們在文資法裡面有類似的情況其實你是沒有預算購買因為民間開出來的這個以市價開出來的條件你說要編列預算書把它優先購買幾乎是很難達到所以可以請我一點考量就是說一定要放當然就放了但它恐怕很難執行那也會變成有一個狀況是說大家都會覺得說那是不是這一類的"},{"start":13713.641,"end":13739.906,"text":"文資或者是不義遺址都要由政府主管機關來購買恐怕會形成財政上比較大的對立以上說明所以聽起來文化部是說其實精神上你們支持只是你們擔心那個放了之後實質上沒有購買那可是它這個是說得嘛對不對所以文化部如果接受的話那這條大家沒有異議的話也許我們這條就通過了好 大家都同意嗎"},{"start":13741.42,"end":13760.92,"text":"我們就多通過一條等一下 我知道雅玲莉主席不好意思我可以發言一下嗎我知道雅玲莉良好啦可是我要說過去在處理很多文資case的時候困境真的就是她用德這個字她還是可以一直罵行政機關喔所以次長你自己說好的喔"},{"start":13761.994,"end":13779.02,"text":"妳確定妳要說好喔沒有沒有要說好我是希望委員想一下因為我們過往在民間做類似的工作我可以理解但我只是要跟妳說次長妳真的有確定妳要說好喔妳剛剛說好因為我剛剛昭偉已經說就通過我沒有我們也是要保持一個彈性嘛對啊讓妳有個工具可以去使用妳也可以選擇不用使用嘛"},{"start":13780.061,"end":13798.261,"text":"這個會跟現在文資的狀況很相同就行為人考慮的是說他其實是會強化民間跟主管機關的衝突因為民間就認為說有這條法條順你應該買啊可是他不能理解說如果以這個標準那我們所有提出來幾乎都要買那以公務預算來說不太可能去購買私人"},{"start":13799.229,"end":13815.299,"text":"沒有 我只是跟委員說如果列了這一條我們事實上是做不到但是它會強化民間跟政府的衝突因為它會認為你可以做但你不做但事實上我們其實就做不到那我們是不是要把一個做不到的事情放在法案裡面要懇求委員是不是可以"},{"start":13816.48,"end":13835.261,"text":"不用這樣子但是在我們現在的文資法也是有一樣的條例嗎類似的條例對嗎對第一個是文資法當然也因為這樣有多了很多衝突那第二我覺得還是要強調一下文資法它畢竟是以有形的文化資產作為保存的標的可是不以一止始終並不是以有形的文化資產保存為目標"},{"start":13836.863,"end":13853.257,"text":"如果它具有文化資產的價值它就會進入文資法在這裡不一一指一直強調的都是歷史記憶的重建跟反省跟永不再犯跟教育推廣這個性質所以為什麼我們不會把有形的文化資產作為保存標的原因是在這裡"},{"start":13854.648,"end":13879.974,"text":"所以還是希望委員可以支持我們好沒關係這個我再想一下好不好那我們這個就先保留讓那個張林委員再想一下大家也有空間再思考好那我們現在進入第10條第10條有陳秀寶委員的修正動議跟林建啟委員的修正動議那其他人的版本都在這第10條是關於那個不移植整體的那個公告以樹立標誌等等請大家自己看一下哪位委員要發言"},{"start":13881.394,"end":13885.28,"text":"那個秀寶委員跟倩琦委員有沒有要發言好 郭玉琴委員先發言"},{"start":13893.956,"end":13922.671,"text":"好 這個第十條的部分就是明定將設置這個歷史標誌侵害人權的事件解說然後配合這個數位的虛擬重建等等那我想國家人權管提供不易移植的線上3D環境的一個導覽但事實上這個在地方政府的一個配合度好像也會直接影響到這個工作上的一個成效所以在質詢的時候其實文化部也表示過這個涉及地方權責的一個部分要用個案協調的方式來做處理"},{"start":13923.491,"end":13952.575,"text":"這部分是也一定要如實的執行好 以上好 那再來是陳秀寶委員謝謝主席在第十條的部分是關於不義遺址的修復方式那這個部分呢我在這個法條的後面我是參佐文資法第24條我們將不義遺址的保存活化在必要的時候的採用現代科技與工法但一定要以維持不義遺址的原貌為主"},{"start":13953.215,"end":13977.414,"text":"那歷史價值跟轉型正義這個原則也要保持住所以我在後面增加的文字是在原句的後面增加是必要時得採用現代科技與工法以增加其抗政防災防潮防住等機能及存續年限但應維持其歷史價值與轉型正義意義以上"},{"start":13980.334,"end":13983.777,"text":"謝謝陳秀寶委員那有沒有其他那個張雅琳委員"},{"start":13985.731,"end":14012.95,"text":"那这一条呢我的版本和行政部门的差异是我参考了文字法的第24条第二项让修复时的时候呢可以去采取现代的科技和工法但同时维持不易移植的历史价值那参考这个文字法当时的修法理由是说修法修复文化资产应该要尊重维持原有的形貌并且采取适当的工法修复我认为在不易移植的修复上确实也需要这样子的规划"},{"start":14013.67,"end":14030.811,"text":"去活化我們的不遺址但我想因為剛剛之前其實也有討論就是說我是擔心說有人會以活化之名將不遺址修整成完全不符合原本的歷史的樣貌所以才會增加最後一行的一個條文"},{"start":14032.213,"end":14048.075,"text":"我覺得最後一行的條文我是不堅持我是不堅持啦主要是做個說明 謝謝好 謝謝張雅玲委員那如果沒有別的委員號那這條我也有版本那我的版本其實就是跟張雅玲委員一樣我們是參考文資法就是除了原本說的以樹立歷史標誌"},{"start":14049.537,"end":14070.174,"text":"解說數位虛擬重建等等辦理歷史事件紀念儀式或活動等方式為原則外那其他我們在修復的部分是希望說能夠得採用現代科技與工法以增加其抗震防災防潮防築等機能及存續年限但因維持其歷史價值跟轉型正義意義"},{"start":14071.054,"end":14092.729,"text":"但是後來我去跟文化部請教了解到其實就像剛剛次長說的它還是跟文資不太一樣因為比較不是在強調實體建築的部分而且本來工法上就沒有需要用傳統工法的問題所以其實我就不堅持可以以文化部的版本通過"},{"start":14093.53,"end":14111.308,"text":"好 那這部分沒有委員們要發言的話就請林倩記委很抱歉好 謝謝昭緯那這一條其實還是在這個基礎的定義上會影響到後面其實這個公法技術我們想為了不管是有刑或無刑假設這個部分確定的話那"},{"start":14112.089,"end":14140.907,"text":"當然現在的公法應該都對於我們保存跟整體的歷史記憶都是正面的一個的發展但是最重要的是那還是在這個基礎的界定上它其實是可以有後面有關於有形跟無形上的一些不同的這個定義所以這個部分我還是建議保留好 那文化部先說明之後我們再處理那個要不要保留的事情"},{"start":14142.568,"end":14167.102,"text":"好 謝謝委員其實這個案子包括范議員 郭育群委員 曾雅琳委員陳秀寶委員的提案的說明都是在針對公法的部分做了一個強調那就像剛剛范議員的說明一樣其實本法並沒有規範它的公法的方式就是並沒有說它不可以用現代科技它跟文資它需要使用所謂的古蹟修復或者歷史建物的修復方式並不相同所以其實"},{"start":14168.523,"end":14187.825,"text":"原則上不太需要規範說他需要他可以採取什麼工法因為原本就不禁止他採取任何的工法那大家可以看在第十條裡面我們的範圍是比較大的第一個是他是優先評估適度的實體修復或重建也就是說修復成原貌或者是重建是他第一個"},{"start":14188.706,"end":14212.362,"text":"考量但是如果沒有辦法做到的話那也因應因為現在的不移植很大多數都已經是已購或者是根本沒有建物地表上已經是消失的狀態所以它會有這些梳理活動啊虛擬重建啊或者是用開放譬如像定期開放有些譬如它是在國防的安全的範圍裡面我們仍然要求它定期或者依照申請開放那為什麼有些是歷史事件的"},{"start":14212.922,"end":14235.316,"text":"這些紀念儀式或活動那因為考量到有些原住民的場所它並沒有硬體建物但是它有紀念儀式大家是有這類的顧慮所以我們的建議是說在公法的這一部分其實應該是可以不用再列但委員如果特別擔心說它在修復之後是不是能維持它的這個歷史價值跟轉型陣營的意義的話這一句話倒是可以加入我們沒有意見"},{"start":14237.185,"end":14259.668,"text":"好 那所以你是說哪一句話可以加入不好意思大家的最後一句話維持其歷史價值與轉型正義好啊 那這部分文化部接受大家的建議就是把最後這個文字加入請記錄一下那其他的部分但是剛剛那個林倩琦委員還是希望保留我們就是還是一樣是不亦已止的那個歷史時期定義的部分不同"},{"start":14260.228,"end":14279.364,"text":"那除了這個之外大家文字上有就是接受文化部的版本但是增加最後委員們都有的那句話好 那我們第10條就這樣保留好 那我們現在進入第11條第11條只有林建琦委員有修正動議那其他委員的版本已經整理了那高金素美委員請發言"},{"start":14282.006,"end":14307.722,"text":"好 謝謝大家這個部分我在第二項裡面是涉及西元1895年日據時代的相關事項應該優先獎勵或補助為什麼會這樣呢?是因為我剛剛講到了那麼多的歷史留下了非常多的不易的足跡其實這一段時間長期以來其實它是記錄了原住民族受壓迫的歷史可是因為時代久遠"},{"start":14308.743,"end":14325.068,"text":"然後長期以來我們的政府並沒有明確的保護或者是推廣的策略所以這些遺址可能因為缺乏關照而逐漸消失了這也是事實所以為了要保存這些具歷史意義的遺址我們應該列為優先獎勵或輔助的範圍"},{"start":14330.069,"end":14356.801,"text":"然後我們政府應該要提供資源來支持相關的研究保護跟教育推廣的工作來確保我們這一段歷史可以被完整的保存並傳承為什麼會特別提到應該要優先來原住民的1895年的原因我相信這個文哲菌應該很清楚知道我們原住民的歷史保存其實也很少"},{"start":14358.281,"end":14365.129,"text":"數件已經很少不要說這些不義遺址所以我們希望對於原住民的1895年這些相關的不義遺址能夠來優先處理以上 謝謝"},{"start":14372.858,"end":14400.123,"text":"因為我看別的委員的第十一條條文都跟院版一樣那文化部針對剛剛高精素美委員的這個有沒有要回應因為如果沒有要回應的話那我們就很明確就是要保留那保留原因就是說就是前項就要不要加入陳上涉及西元1895年日據時代之相關事項應優先獎勵或補助 好不好這樣我們就知道保留原因了那第十條保留那我們現在進入第"},{"start":14402.308,"end":14424.306,"text":"講錯了 11條保留那我們現在進入第12條第12條也 哪位委員要發言有一樣是林倩琦委員有那個修正動議所以是不是高金淑美委員要不要有要說明嗎這個我就不要說明因為我的修正動議第12條跟行政院的版本條文是一樣的那我們是不是就依第12條"},{"start":14428.177,"end":14442.778,"text":"是因為後面有不一指四個字是不是是好 那第十二條大家都跟行言版本一樣那現在就是不一指這四個字有不同的見解那我們十二條因為這樣保留好 那我們現在進入第十三條第十三條"},{"start":14445.783,"end":14473.439,"text":"有一樣是林倩琦委員有一個修正動議那跟剛剛一樣嗎對就是在第二項裡面是1895年日據時代的潛在不義遺址應該依照本條例的規定優先審議是一樣的好那第13條其他委員的版本都跟文化部的一樣那就是我們因為最後要不要加西元1895年日據時代之潛在不義遺址應優先審議這些文字那我們第13條因此保留好"},{"start":14474.099,"end":14501.839,"text":"那我們現在進入第14條第14條有林益菁委員不是 講錯了陳秀寶委員有修正動議還有林倩琦委員還有張雅琳委員先發言再來高金素明委員還有秀寶委員好 這一條是在討論不義指責修護管理責任歸屬那這邊我也是參考了文資法新政的第2、3、5項分別是主管機關應定期巡查主管機關可以令不義以指所有機關"},{"start":14504.301,"end":14520.763,"text":"對他們來針對要求他們做這個不易移植進行收復還有緊急收復的一個相關規範因為我認為我們還是要原本的版本裡面只有採取必要維護措施但我覺得我們應該要有更積極的一個行動跟要求謝謝"},{"start":14523.78,"end":14546.98,"text":"好 謝謝再來是高金素美委員第二陳秀寶委員謝謝第14條是講說這個管理機關或者是機構或者是所有人要善盡管理維護的責任同樣的在14條裡面我一樣是要把私人接收至日本財產者也是要放在裡頭所以我的文字是有這幾個跟大家不一樣的也像 謝謝好 謝謝那陳秀寶委員"},{"start":14550.154,"end":14572.924,"text":"現在就寫第14條的部分是關於不預止受破壞之必要處理方式那我這邊有提案就是要增訂第三項的部分其實也是參考文資法的部分在不預止因重大災害有辦理緊急修復必要的時候管理機關所有人所有人使用人或是管理應該在30日以內提報搶修計畫6個月以內提出修復計畫並因"},{"start":14577.766,"end":14600.727,"text":"經主管機關核准後使得為之來因應不抑制有重大的災害必要及時強修的這個情況那我這邊增加的文字是不抑制是原件物或遺構因重大災害有辦理緊急修復之必要者其管理機關機構所有人使用人或管理人因於在後30日內"},{"start":14602.008,"end":14620.875,"text":"提报抢修计划并于在后6个月内提出修复计划均以主管机关核准后为之因为这个提这样的文字增修是因为考量到安全的维护因为这个博弈椅子选定之后呢其实也会有我们"},{"start":14621.055,"end":14633.684,"text":"一般的民眾會過去那如果說它有這個災後的受損的狀況我沒有及時的去修復它在對於說使用上這個安全的疑慮會比較高所以我增訂了這樣的文字以上"},{"start":14634.775,"end":14656.385,"text":"好 謝謝秀寶委員那第14條沒有別的委員要發言了那是不是文化部這裡回應一下就是剛剛秀寶委員的那個修正動議針對這個其實也跟秀寶委員說明我們的理由大概跟之前相同這個部分大概就是針對以文資的方法來規範做緊急修復那因為我們原先的判斷是在"},{"start":14657.225,"end":14685.318,"text":"不易移植的部分比較不會有這一類的所謂的緊急狀況但如果要列入也沒有關係啦我們還是可以依照這個緊急修復的狀況來做當然它跟文資是不一樣的我是說它參考文資的這個規範但是你要是說有緊急的災害它導致說它有一些損害可能會有一些安全上的疑慮還是要處理啊對就是因為沒關係因為它大概就會有所謂公有私有公有的部分它就有修復跟維護的義務啦那大概在私有的部分就會又面臨到說"},{"start":14686.52,"end":14691.257,"text":"當事人的意願跟對他財產的影響如何但我想列在這邊也沒有太大的問題"},{"start":14693.183,"end":14716.263,"text":"所以那個文化部可以接受是不是對 就是修復的部分我們可以那修復部分就陳秀寶委員的那個文字納入那如果沒有其他意見的話因為高精素美委員剛剛我那邊還有增加了文資法的那個235項這個部分的話是不是也可以來回覆一下 謝謝張雅琳委員的版本是不是也請文化部這邊回應一下"},{"start":14717.917,"end":14745.893,"text":"還是跟委員說因為委員的版本裡面是主管機關淨為管理維護修復會變成那大家就不要管理維護就好啦因為文化部就都會淨為管理維護所以我們比較建議可以不要這樣規範因為這樣子有點是有點是負面的卸除了管理機關的責任但是前面的文字所以前面的文字是可以但是只是希望不要把所有的權責都掛在主管機關上面對嗎"},{"start":14748.075,"end":14771.017,"text":"對就是後面的這一塊就是主管機關得通知但是沒有得通知管理機關或所有人借其改限其改善我們本來就這個部分就會其實這個我們我們在後面因為有刑責有罰則就是管理機關如果有不作為的情況我們是會處罰他的所以這本來我們就可以所以這部分的文字是可以後面不要敬畏改對這部分這樣是是是"},{"start":14771.758,"end":14783.894,"text":"因為定期巡查跟審議我們本來也都是會做的關於那第三項的部分就是說就是跟秀巴文人的類似我們把文字調整一下就可以原則上就是緊急修復的狀況"},{"start":14785.71,"end":14814.215,"text":"那我的版本其實跟張雅玲跟秀寶委員都一樣精神一樣文字我還沒有時間check那都是文資法那部分那就很高興文化部會接受緊急修復的部分抱歉那我再確認一下就是於策定重大營建工程計畫前來通知我們召開審議會協調這個部分呢這個部分您的想法是跟委員報告因為我們本來的文字就有啦就是重大營建工程計畫前通知主管機關這個我們本來就有"},{"start":14819.066,"end":14827.618,"text":"所以這個第14條的部分高經事務委員是不是有文字"},{"start":14829.093,"end":14848.335,"text":"等一下那我想很高興就是文化部有接受一部分就是我們先以秀寶委員那個部分的部分文字那另外就是高金素美委員那邊有是私人接收是日本財產者跟剛剛我念一下就是要增加那個在中間多一句就是"},{"start":14850.498,"end":14865.298,"text":"是属公有或私人接收之日本财产者是的那我们因为这个部分大家不同的意见那我们保留其他的部分很高兴大家有共识然后文化部有接受那个部分陈秀宝委员的文字"},{"start":14865.538,"end":14882.516,"text":"好 還有一個部分是他剛剛有提到就是經主管機關查認因管理不當之不義以止及潛在不渝止有蔑視或減損價值之餘者主管機關得通知管理機構或所有人限期改善這個部分其實也是可以融入在現有的文字上面去強化這個精神對 這個部分"},{"start":14883.717,"end":14909.887,"text":"我們剛剛有說我們可以容慮我們只有最後那一段就是敬委管理維護那部分的刪除好 那這部分就張雅玲委員也有我的跟她一樣我們就是參考文字法的好 那就請文化部去處理文字的部分那我們現在進入就是只有那個林怡瑾跟郭育群委員的15條請大家看一下這個整理的大本在第24頁跟25頁的部分那林怡瑾委員要先發言"},{"start":14914.476,"end":14914.7,"text":"地鼠"},{"start":14916.699,"end":14943.915,"text":"第15條我是新增的啦因為我的16條跟原版的15條是一致的那等於是可是我現在有個修正動議有改一些我原本15條的文字我原本是寫直轄市縣主管機關依本法應作為而不作為怎樣怎樣怎樣可是我現在修正動議是"},{"start":14945.336,"end":14949.767,"text":"改成公有不易以止及潛在不易止之管理機關"},{"start":14951.107,"end":14979.417,"text":"或購 括號或購依本法應作為而不作為那為什麼改這樣 基本上當然就是說因為現在我們舉例來講像說國防部跟法務部它就表明了不願配合 很明顯是這樣那國防部的理由是說不便開放參反及什麼設置告示牌那法務部的理由是已無遺構的存在那可是我們不以此的標示"},{"start":14980.799,"end":14987.928,"text":"根本無關有沒有移購或能不能開放參觀的問題那所以其實這兩個機關這兩個單位他們管轄的場域他們其實都是這樣的一個說法所以我覺得是不是就法令上去規範他們"},{"start":14999.281,"end":15019.273,"text":"如果說因作為而不作為致危害不易移植保存時得由行政院中央主管機關命期一定時間內為之如果多增加了這些可能也會讓文化部在做事情的時候比較好做不然有些部會確實他們對於不移植的想法或者他們的態度不能"},{"start":15028.138,"end":15045.026,"text":"太消極了 所以我覺得這個部分那也是希望參照文資法第110條的規定就讓主管 中央主管機關或行政院能夠代行處理不移植保存或活化的規定那這個我想這個請大家參考一下"},{"start":15045.836,"end":15060.782,"text":"好 那個林益謹委員有個修正動議要他把他的原來的第15條的直轄市縣主管機關改成公有不義遺址及潛在不義執管的機關好 那個郭益謹委員你跟林益謹是一樣 請發言下一個是那個柯真委員"},{"start":15061.542,"end":15085.98,"text":"好 這一條其實我們也是參照這個文子保存法的第111條跟地方制度法的這個76條第一項的一個規定啦只是說新增條文規定就是如果地方主管機關應作為而不作為的時候中央主管機關的代行處理那這個部分其實有特別講到是情況急迫的一個狀況所以以上跟大家報告"},{"start":15086.42,"end":15105.588,"text":"好謝謝那柯真委員好不好意思因為這個第15條是有關於罰則的部分我還是要強調一下等一下我們現在不是到那個是到林怡瑾跟郭育群的第15條好那我是本文第15條那你等一下那這個部分是不是請文化部回應一下"},{"start":15106.596,"end":15123.065,"text":"好 謝謝委員關心這一條應該委員的用意是在說萬一遇到因作為而不作為的主管機關那我們的建議是這樣因為因作為而不作為的本來在行政執行法裡面就有罰則就是說它不作為的話主管機關是可以罰他30萬到5000萬的"},{"start":15125.026,"end":15149.74,"text":"代金而且就是他不作為甚至是可以重複裁罰所以我們的建議是說是不是在這一條加上的就是說如果這個主管機關不作為的話就依照行政執行法來予以裁罰因為第一個就是說代行這個部分可能沒有辦法在法條裡面訂定因為代行是地方自治法裡面的一個專有名詞就是說代行要有代行的條件所以他可能"},{"start":15150.34,"end":15169.905,"text":"不建議是直接代刑但是我們建立法則可不可以建立一個共識就是說如果他有應作為不作為的機關的時候不管他是中央主管機關或地方主管機關管理機關那我們都可以用刑政裁罰的方式要求他執行並且懲罰他的代金"},{"start":15172.352,"end":15187.962,"text":"是不是可以這樣文化部是希望最後那個屆時仍不作為者依什麼行政執行法第35條行政執行法第35條有一個他可以懲罰他30到5000萬元的代金而且要求他執行"},{"start":15189.053,"end":15202.444,"text":"好 那郭玉琴委員跟帶多的帶 帶多的帶可是文資法第110條確實是規定可以帶行那是因為它是地方政府 它是地方自治法對 但是這裡我們並沒有這一類的關卡關係可是如果說我們"},{"start":15207.228,"end":15226.327,"text":"直接寫就是公有不一一止的這些管理機關那你的意思說跟他們的管理機關有可能是法務部那你跟他們是沒有直接的管理關係你的意思是這樣因為地方自治對於代行是有定義的就是你要有這樣的權責代行一定是中央對地方對"},{"start":15227.608,"end":15251.477,"text":"所以文資是中央對地方是有代行它是針對地方政府而且這裡是這樣我們還是比較不主張用代行來做因為代行很可能就是卸除了原管理機關的責任因為他就覺得說那就給你代行就好我就不要做所以我們的建議是有懲處的罰則就變成是有罰則他一定要做你改成 沒有"},{"start":15253.168,"end":15270.716,"text":"文字我們可以再提供那聽起來就是說這個新增以景跟育行委員的第15條文化部可以接受但是文字上得代行處理的話文化部會再修正文字好不好那這個我們也先保留但大家知道精神上接受等到那個文字確定之後是OK的"},{"start":15272.537,"end":15283.994,"text":"好 那我們就進入到很重要的罰則因為沒有罰則的話就第15條 大家的第15條柯政委員要發言林議警跟林倩琪都有修正動議"},{"start":15288.783,"end":15317.821,"text":"好我们就是讨论第15条罚则的部分我还是要特别请教一下利用这今天请教一下这空总军事法庭还有康处所是促转会公告的不亦已止就文化部自己把其中一栋给拆了而且在去年使者任内为什么基于什么理由若该罚谁我不晓得这个本法如果没有说及既往的话那文化部为什么要自己拆那我想文化部应该是应该自己先罚2000万然后把原来的部分把它弄回来这个部分请解释一下好不好"},{"start":15318.661,"end":15341.745,"text":"而且呢有关于你们这个标识牌的费用啊我还是要特别利用这机会讲一下为什么不公开招标而且呢你看一个标识牌要花多少钱谭南市做一块是八万块行政院做三块却要七十万然后呢同样一家公司然后呢不同的不同的标价然后呢这难道是有特殊的工法吗我觉得利用这个机会再谈到筏子的部分我请文化部给一个交代好不好"},{"start":15342.205,"end":15358.811,"text":"然后到底这个有没有特殊的技术有没有不涉及专利为什么价格会这样背离行情那为什么不能公开招标我觉得这是在讨论罚则的部分里面应该一并来做说明特别是对于空种已经被认定是不易移植的部分为什么文化不要拆"},{"start":15360.393,"end":15382.679,"text":"那第15條院版15條罰則的部分有沒有其他委員要翻譯我看大家都好像都一樣那是不是就請文化部針對剛剛柯之恩委員的疑問第一個空總的部分的那個所謂不一己的拆除我們是不是可以由李政策來做說明然後第二就是對於罰則的部分法務部也有意見可能也要請法務部表示意見"},{"start":15383.951,"end":15405.733,"text":"然後最後我回答的是標示牌的部分標示牌的部分基本上是由管理機關來執行那管理機關他要用什麼方式執行我們基本上只有輔導我們沒有要求但是他的金額會決定他是不是必須採用公開照表那所以這個可能管理機關如果是行政院的話應該是人轉人權處吧"},{"start":15409.947,"end":15429.141,"text":"跟柯委員報告一下空總的部分被列為不易移植的是在舊辦公樓舊辦公大樓的部分我們在去年所拆除的是沒有文資身份也沒有不易移植身份的新辦公大樓這個部分要拆除因為它跟舊辦公大樓"},{"start":15432.385,"end":15455.655,"text":"前面紅色右手邊的那個就是舊辦公大樓那後面的這個是新辦公大樓雖然新辦公大樓沒有文資身份可是它因為跟舊辦公大樓非常的靠近所以要拆除新辦公大樓我們依然有通過台北市文化局文資審議委員會的委員到場去現刊同意我們做拆除"},{"start":15456.255,"end":15470.602,"text":"整個程序都是按照那個行政的相關規定去進行的跟委員說明那個是不是要請剛剛有問題要請人權及轉型正義處處長賴處長回應然後等下法務部請回應那個罰則的部分"},{"start":15482.672,"end":15489.809,"text":"市長 剛剛是說招標的部分嗎剛剛是說有那個標示牌招標啊 價格啊 就是說多少錢啊"},{"start":15492.113,"end":15515.397,"text":"那這樣子法務部先回應那個罰則的部分你們有沒有意見第15條罰則跟委員們報告15條的罰則這一部分我們看那個構成要件是有幾個問題第一個就是因為這個條文的訂定目的應該一直是在避免不義遺址或者是遺構遭受不到的破壞公有不義遺址而已公有不義遺址那這有"},{"start":15516.878,"end":15538.574,"text":"幾個問題 第一個就是私有不義遺址的保護排除在這個地方當然是尊重私人財產的意願但是這個是為了保管保護保管維護墓地的刑法手段有需要把它排除嗎因為我們的想法是假設這個私有遺址一夠私有財產權他想把它督根變成蓋大樓那這樣的話"},{"start":15540.475,"end":15564.913,"text":"一定得破壞這樣的一個遺構或私有遺址那這樣的話我們政府機關的立場所以你已經在實質上要大家把私有放進來我們現在是問你針對公有的這個罰則是不是OK公有的罰則沒有問題但是就是那個五十萬以上跟兩千萬這個級距是有一點寬啦就是太級距很大因為通常我們那個那你們建議是怎麼樣"},{"start":15566.334,"end":15589.634,"text":"五倍 通常是五倍但是當然也有看情況 個案的狀況不同的具體情況差很大的也是有也是過去曾有這樣的例子也是有這個例子對好那我想因為我們每個委員的版本都是五十萬到兩千萬那當然就是說法務部也提供意見就是比較少但是也有這樣的例子"},{"start":15590.274,"end":15611.295,"text":"那我想如果沒有特別的意見的話我想私有那個我們應該沒有人要放進來嘛因為沒有人有這個版本那我們是不是第15條就基本上就是以那個文化部的版本通過那當然不易移植的那個15條還是那個不易移植的部分對 不易移植我們保留但是我們文字的部分大家都接受了發責內容好不好我剛剛講很清楚"},{"start":15613.737,"end":15629.184,"text":"好那第15條一直保留但保留的原因就是因為那四個字啦不移植的那個名詞這整個整個概念我想確認一下15條裡面剛剛有講到帶墮的部分是不是也要把它也會把它納入修正的文字裡面增列嗎已經增列了"},{"start":15630.069,"end":15634.033,"text":"那個是在林議警的第15條我們現在講的是院版15條那個部分是議警跟疫情委員的15條那我現在講的15條是罰則的院版15條那我們進入那個第16條很簡單只有那個林倩琪委員有修正動議委員"},{"start":15651.149,"end":15675.284,"text":"有關那個私有的移購這個部分因為那個條文文字看起來不是很明確因為第幾條就是15條罰則的部分第15條我們沒有私有啊我們全部都在公有啊因為我們那個公有不易移植後面加個移購所以這完全是指公有移購不含那個私有移購嗎對啊它是公有不易移植原件或移購那個移購是包含公有跟私有"},{"start":15676.204,"end":15700.041,"text":"我們剛剛都在講公有那這樣的話可能需要在那個說明裡面要說明清楚說明他們在講清楚我們都懂說這是講公有好那個沒關係吼那是第16條吼那個有沒有人要發言沒有的話第16條是不是就照行政院版本通過文化部的因為這個很簡單啦完全沒有剛好沒有不義者這幾個字"},{"start":15701.325,"end":15724.938,"text":"好 那現在我們處理附帶決議 請宣讀介於台灣威權統治時期 人權破壞事件層出不窮除了關押秘密審訊與處決場所已納入不予以致保存條例保存與紀念 人若諸如逮捕場所遭約彈處 受害者故居等處"},{"start":15726.059,"end":15748.609,"text":"具有歷史保存意義及教育價值,對此,台南市政府文化局即出版《台南人權歷史常識》系列重書,詳實記載威權統治時期大台南地區曾發生之人權破壞事件及其相關場所之歷史故事,為前接地點,應不符無意以指保存條例中人權侵害處所之定義,"},{"start":15749.569,"end":15771.893,"text":"意味必符合文資法紀念建築或歷史建築的資格建請文化部參考台南人權歷史長址系列重書盤點全台例如重書中之長址進而規劃如何紀念與保存並於114年5月前已書面回覆前述規劃或進度提案人林盈瑾 陳培宇 張雅玲 修讀完畢"},{"start":15775.382,"end":15798.499,"text":"好 那文化部是不是回應一下這附帶決議好 那個島嶼第二行那個盤點全台如從事這個我們改成協助相關單位進行紀念與保存然後必於14年5月前提出書面報告這樣子就修正這兩句修正後照案通過 好"},{"start":15800.701,"end":15803.903,"text":"這個附帶決議是很好但是如果能夠接受本席的條文從清朝時期就開始算的話"},{"start":15823.99,"end":15840.317,"text":"這個當然就在那裡面了不用附帶結議了所以這個部分是這樣所以跟會會有相關會有相關然後這裡面也是因為寫不亦以止保存條例因為既然法例名稱也還沒有定所以說一併一併送協商謝謝"},{"start":15844.67,"end":15860.168,"text":"那我想我們這個就是因為名稱的緣故一起保留那其他的內容都已經修正通過這樣OK嗎 我們就一起保留附帶決議因為你剛剛意見也是關於不一致保全條例那個名稱嘛好"},{"start":15862.745,"end":15890.418,"text":"那就一起保留今天的審查結果免於重複宣讀在不影響條文文藝前提下文字條次其標點符號為統一體例授權意識人員修改列入紀錄未予採納條文授權意識人員確認關於今天會議作以下決議對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答覆部分請相關機關盡速以書面答覆"},{"start":15891.178,"end":15906.864,"text":"那不議之保存條例相關草案另定期繼續審查報告委員會今天議程處理完畢現在散會謝謝各位辛苦了就是下次因為保留這麼多我們下次留在委員會裡面再拿出來審查"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}