{"error":false,"id":["164598"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":164598,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164598","日期":"2025-10-22","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-4-20-3","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第4會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":4,"會次":3,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第4會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2025-10-22T12:05:52+08:00","結束時間":"2025-10-22T12:16:28+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:36","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/615807a88c5be4da2c8bf66f52a2d43fe29853ba2d60c06d2d78011594ec5757ddaafb66827a691f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"12:05:52 - 12:16:28","會議時間":"2025-10-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處、財政部就「中央對直轄市及縣（市）政府補助辦法修正後，一般性補助款審查與評比基準、財務計畫檢核基礎、撥款方式等規範及作業程序為何？修改財力級次計算公式之合理性及對各縣市補助款影響為何？計畫型補助款範圍與業務定義？對各縣市未來整體財政補助金額之影響」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.05221875,"end":29.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.97159375,"end":30.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.74346875,"end":31.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.384093750000005,"end":36.025343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.68721875,"end":40.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.885343750000004,"end":46.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.48346875,"end":53.507843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.98034375,"end":57.439718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.59159375,"end":60.190343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.96659375,"end":65.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.79284375,"end":66.51846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.80096875000001,"end":70.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.71159375,"end":78.80346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.71471875,"end":82.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.92096875,"end":84.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.48596875000001,"end":87.61221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.10159375,"end":89.50221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.15596875,"end":91.86471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.69159375000001,"end":95.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.11284375000001,"end":99.00284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.37409375,"end":102.58034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.44096875000001,"end":107.01846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.44034375000001,"end":116.97471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.76784375000001,"end":138.94596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.97534375,"end":141.93284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.47284375,"end":153.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.35284375,"end":158.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.92596875,"end":159.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.46159375000002,"end":162.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.72284375,"end":166.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.95846875,"end":169.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.78909375,"end":174.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.88971875000001,"end":175.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.27346875,"end":183.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.49159375000002,"end":185.84159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.92159375,"end":189.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.49471875,"end":192.57471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.57034375,"end":195.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.70034375,"end":199.74659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.65784375,"end":202.15971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.49721875,"end":210.15846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.79971875,"end":212.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.82034375,"end":215.67659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.75659375,"end":217.00971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.43159375000002,"end":218.89971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.33846875,"end":220.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.64596875,"end":223.74284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.43034375000002,"end":226.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.18096875,"end":236.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.90534375000001,"end":239.25096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.68971875000003,"end":246.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.84034375000002,"end":249.84846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.28721875000002,"end":251.60346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.80159375000002,"end":253.32471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.89846875,"end":255.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.66596875,"end":260.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.08721875000003,"end":262.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.16284375000004,"end":263.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.68596875000003,"end":266.95971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.29721875,"end":268.12409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.96784375000004,"end":271.95471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.70971875000004,"end":276.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.16909375,"end":278.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.31221875,"end":282.04596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.02471875000003,"end":287.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.10409375,"end":290.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.69846875,"end":292.66034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.93034375,"end":299.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.71409375,"end":302.36346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.55721875,"end":305.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.88596875,"end":307.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.69159375000004,"end":309.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.26096875,"end":311.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.35346875000005,"end":316.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.10784375000003,"end":319.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.72346875,"end":323.17034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.44034375,"end":325.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.00096875,"end":339.48846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.11284375,"end":341.53034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.06596875,"end":347.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.17471875,"end":350.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.07284375,"end":354.38909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.03034375000004,"end":360.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.18971875,"end":363.14721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.93159375000005,"end":366.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.88909375000003,"end":368.59784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.04909375,"end":375.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.10284375000003,"end":378.58784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.16159375,"end":381.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.70534375,"end":388.00409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.22346875000005,"end":394.33221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.95659375,"end":397.53846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.01096875,"end":398.26409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.83784375000005,"end":400.84596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.75284375,"end":408.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.11471875,"end":412.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.41346875000005,"end":415.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.35409375,"end":421.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.56846875,"end":422.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.61034375,"end":426.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.90909375,"end":429.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.15784375000004,"end":430.57971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":432.25034375,"end":433.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.71409375,"end":437.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.93284375,"end":442.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.37096875000003,"end":448.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":448.72034375000004,"end":450.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.25159375000004,"end":457.57971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":458.00159375000004,"end":459.16596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":459.63846875,"end":462.67596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":462.81096875000003,"end":464.88659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.62909375000004,"end":467.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":467.67096875000004,"end":469.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":470.08409375,"end":473.50971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":474.67409375000005,"end":475.45034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.72034375000004,"end":477.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.79159375,"end":479.66909375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.73221875,"end":481.17096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":481.55909375000005,"end":483.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.77846875000006,"end":483.17909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.31409375000004,"end":483.66846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":483.66846875000005,"end":510.53346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.68534375,"end":483.70221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":506.43284375,"end":507.12471875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":508.55909375000005,"end":512.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":514.0603437500001,"end":519.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":519.71346875,"end":523.3415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":524.1684687500001,"end":534.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":535.0190937500001,"end":536.0147187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":536.45346875,"end":537.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":537.9553437500001,"end":539.0690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":539.6428437500001,"end":541.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":542.49471875,"end":552.3328437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":552.51846875,"end":554.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":553.1259687500001,"end":554.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":554.9653437500001,"end":556.8047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":555.4209687499999,"end":558.7790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":559.38659375,"end":559.4878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":559.4878437500001,"end":562.1709687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":559.55534375,"end":559.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":562.5422187500001,"end":562.5759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":562.5759687500001,"end":564.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":563.0990937500001,"end":568.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":564.61784375,"end":565.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":565.6303437500001,"end":565.9678437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":568.29659375,"end":572.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":573.62909375,"end":576.5147187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":576.5990937500001,"end":583.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":584.0747187500001,"end":587.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":584.73284375,"end":587.9897187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":587.9897187500001,"end":588.0403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":588.0403437500001,"end":593.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":593.9128437500001,"end":598.5534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":599.4140937500001,"end":608.6953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":602.16471875,"end":602.5359687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":603.5990937500001,"end":605.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":605.9953437500001,"end":614.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":614.82096875,"end":614.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":614.93909375,"end":618.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":620.28846875,"end":628.5403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":627.8147187500001,"end":628.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":628.5403437500001,"end":635.1553437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":635.6953437500001,"end":637.16346875}],"whisperx":[{"start":26.57,"end":30.734,"text":"謝謝主席 請主席長還有阮市長請陳主席長還有阮市長委員好今天討論這個一般性補助款跟計畫性補助款剛剛王世堅 王委員質詢完"},{"start":48.324,"end":70.027,"text":"這兩個對地方政府跟一般人民都是非常重要的如果套用王世堅的那個歌這本來應該是匆匆容容可以游刃有意要討論的啊結果現在行政院把他搞得變成是匆匆忙忙連滾帶爬甚至到現在都還在睜眼說瞎話昨天財政部邀了各個地方政府"},{"start":72.765,"end":95.692,"text":"美企也說是協調可是看起來好像就是地方政府一定要接受的市長我看了你們昨天的一個講話你們說你們保證統籌款跟一般的補助款不會比去年還要少"},{"start":97.205,"end":116.653,"text":"事實上你們昨天都在討論的是各個縣市之間的這個水平分配現在問題不在那裡嘛財化崴最重要精神是什麼就是以前的錢 中央集權嘛我一直在強調好的財政就是像不倒翁下面一定是要過的結果不是我們剛好是倒三角形"},{"start":118.007,"end":138.632,"text":"頭重腳輕所以就出現很多地方自治沒辦法推動很多照顧人民的事情沒辦法做所以才修了財化法財化的精神就是把中央的拿的太多的錢要下放給地方嘛你昨天開會應該是要討論中央要落實財化法把該有的四千多億落實下放給地方結果不是你們去討論說各個縣市要怎麼分"},{"start":140.012,"end":165.708,"text":"搞錯重點 第二個是更嚴重的目前我發現一個非常離譜的事情你們現在行政院好像變成土房地了你們不只坐在金山上面裝乞丐還在喊窮你們還在從地方挖錢這是財化法本來修正完下放地方是4100多億 對不對結果我現在發現一個很嚴重的你們是以修辦法你們從地方又搶了2646億回去"},{"start":171.096,"end":189.045,"text":"搶了三分之二我們給大家清楚看一下中央這次要到地方的錢一個是統籌款一個是一般補助款一個是計劃型補助款現在最嚴重的計劃型的補助款今年2954億你們大到一砍砍到剩下308你們總會這樣子"},{"start":200.84,"end":219.985,"text":"這個地方很多施政怎麼做等一下我進一步來講這個是影響影響到一般民眾最基礎的這個需求影響到我們很多的基礎建設了第二個影響也是很大的你把一般性的這個補助款你竟然要變成是要去做審查我先問你一下8月28號"},{"start":228.246,"end":255.22,"text":"朝野協商的時候就發現說你們竟然做了這麼離譜的這個事情因為一般性的補助款很多都是法定預算嘛法定的義務支出嘛包括那個薪資啊什麼退伍那些你怎麼可能要去審查呢所以那一天朝野協商各黨團三長都在喔你看那個文這個文是不只是通過喔總統府公告的喔好要求行政院"},{"start":256.724,"end":281.787,"text":"不能夠將明年的一般性補助款改為申請制上面不是只有國民黨跟民眾黨包括我三長簽名我簽起來的柯建銘 吳思瑤 陳培宇都在上面你現在怎麼樣 你是打臉柯建銘他們三長打臉總統府嗎怎麼可以做這樣的事情好啦 更嚴重的 你看右下角"},{"start":283.083,"end":302.278,"text":"你現在馬上把原來的一般補助款砍掉是什麼教育部分的有659億全部都砍喔這裡面要做什麼基本的教育人員的辦事費營養午餐水電冷氣退伏支出限職的待遇調整這錢怎麼能砍呢第二個"},{"start":309.217,"end":324.684,"text":"蘇進清一 砍了24億 他要做什麼河川的清一跟蘇進10億內政部下水道14億現在紅台低天災那麼多如果因為你把這個錢砍掉 要出了狀況你良心會安嗎"},{"start":327.048,"end":345.787,"text":"一般型的補助款怎麼可以這樣改這樣砍呢你這個等於是辦法已經凌越了整個財化法當初的修正啊而且你是打臉了整個朝鮮協商的結論打臉了總統府接下來看更嚴重的計劃型補助款你砍了這2646億這多嚴重的事情桃園市直接跟你講"},{"start":353.117,"end":362.54,"text":"他們桃園力推的珍珠海岸計畫被砍了以後還有校園的無障礙這個補助被砍了以後這全部都出狀況了然後台中市60億本來明年要給人家的60億的藍線的這個捷運砍到整家1.6億然後基隆跟彰化縣長跟這個縣長他們跑出來講說"},{"start":383.028,"end":411.841,"text":"這次如果本來立法院通過這個財務法修正本來他們的地方的經費是增加的結果你知道裡面乾坤大農以下像這個土匪這樣像土房廳這樣亂砍砍到後來他們的計畫型的這個他們這整個收入啊欸搞不好比財務法修正以前還要少欸連立營我給你看一個連你們民進黨的而且你以前服務過的你長久在台南服務的連台南的財政稅務局都在說啊"},{"start":414.431,"end":426.139,"text":"他說拜託中央我們有很多計劃型的這個補助款是已經實施多年他是一個跨年度的他說不要減要不然的話連台南的這個水利建設都受影響耶主委長跟次長我今天執行一畫面我要提醒幾個第一個現在問題不在不在縣市之間的這個移動是垂直"},{"start":443.41,"end":460.944,"text":"而且是財化法本來的精神請回到你該給的錢要給地方你不要像土匪 像土房地你又搶回去了2000多億你現在就搶回去三分之二而且我今天很明確跟你講它已經影響了治水的這個問題教育的問題 薪資的問題基礎建設的這個問題各個縣市政府都出來 拜託了"},{"start":465.663,"end":479.469,"text":"拜託你們你們這段時間不要一直在搶錢萬一天災來了你連治水的錢都砍掉了良心何在小孩子的營養午餐被你們砍掉了你疑心何忍"},{"start":480.768,"end":507.691,"text":"好不好 回過頭去想因為115年預算的籌備是很困難的那我們當初去檢也是不得已所以我們本身是把原來一般性補助和計畫性補助都是屬於縣市應辦的事項所以我們把一些它屬於基本它應辦的事項歸給縣市然後把一些屬於需要中央政策引導性的部分來繼續編列而且我們還簡化"},{"start":508.632,"end":522.674,"text":"你現在就是坐在金山上面在裝乞丐啦中央政府這麼有錢中央政府現在目前的總預算一年光是一年三兆欸歷年來最有錢的明年還變到三兆一千億欸"},{"start":524.209,"end":541.314,"text":"你當主機人也那麼久我跑預算新聞那麼久我們以前的預算中央政府兩兆就不得了了短短這幾年攀升到三兆了你這麼有錢你是大富豪我們的地方政府要嘛小康要嘛就小平跟赤平"},{"start":542.54,"end":557.805,"text":"就好不容易 財化法過了 錢要下放了可以落實地方自治 可以照顧地方建設 照顧地方的人民你又 乾坤大樓又去搶錢 搶了兩千多億回去不是 我乾坤大樓要搶 妳現在裝窮不是 事實上是 第一個我再給妳看一個 來 主席我再給妳看一個專業的數據"},{"start":559.565,"end":572.547,"text":"民國八十八年 你看我的圖民國八十八年的時候 金手之前中央政府佔所有稅數是多少六十點一到現在 經過財務法你如果四千多億都下放"},{"start":574.023,"end":597.932,"text":"4000多億都下放 還有65.6比以前多的比例 比例仔細看還多耶絕對仔細看3兆多耶你都是一個大富翁耶 你現在一直喊窮報告委員 這裡面包含整個政府11%的業務馬英九 陳水扁都不要實施那個整個業務都沒辦法推動了人家1兆多 2兆多都實施得好好的你3兆多結果還在裝乞丐"},{"start":599.451,"end":615.477,"text":"主委長你是不是都用書面答覆好不好好不好 最重要我剛剛講的最重要 對 我一句話就好最重要的不要把計畫型補助款砍那麼多該給地方的 你不能夠2900多億 砍了2600多億砍掉十分之九"},{"start":620.356,"end":636.115,"text":"那這個影響的是地方很多很多的這個建設我剛講的然後一般性補助款你怎麼可以把它變成是審查這兩個趕快改回來 謝謝好 處理長你要 你的答覆就這個書面去答覆好了OK 謝謝三委員接下來我們請書記"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1136,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（12時6分）謝謝主席，請主計長和阮次長。"],["主席：請陳主計長和阮次長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：今天討論一般性補助款跟計畫型補助款，王世堅王委員剛剛質詢完，這兩個對地方政府跟一般人民都是非常重要的，如果套用王世堅的那首歌，這本來應該是可以從從容容、游刃有餘來討論的，結果現在行政院把它搞得變成是匆匆忙忙、連滾帶爬，甚至到現在都還在睜眼說瞎話。","昨天財政部邀各地方政府，美其名說是協調，可是看起來好像就是要地方政府一定要接受。次長，我看了你們昨天的講話，你們說你們保證統籌款跟一般的補助款不會比去年還要少，事實上你們昨天都在討論各縣市之間的水平分配，現在問題不是在那裡嘛，財劃法最重要的精神是什麼？就是以前的錢是中央集權。我一直在強調，好的財政就像不倒翁，下面一定是要夠的，結果不是這樣，我們的財政剛好是倒三角形，頭重腳輕，所以就出現很多地方自治沒有辦法推動，很多照顧人民的事情沒辦法做，所以才修了財劃法，財劃法的精神就是要把中央拿得太多的錢下放給地方嘛。你昨天開會應該是討論中央要落實財劃法，把該有的四千多億落實下放給地方，結果不是，你們去討論各縣市要怎麼分，搞錯重點。","第二個是更嚴重的問題，目前我發現了一個非常離譜的事情，現在行政院好像變成土皇帝了，你們不只坐在金山上面裝乞丐，還在喊窮，你們還在從地方挖錢，這次財劃法本來修正完以後下放地方的錢是四千一百多億，對不對？結果我現在發現一個很嚴重的問題，你們自己修辦法，你們又從地方搶了2,646億回去，搶了三分之二耶！來，我們給大家清楚看一下，中央這次向地方要到的錢，一個是統籌款，一個是一般補助款，一個是計畫型補助款，現在最嚴重的問題是，計畫型補助款今年是2,954億，你們大刀一砍，砍到剩下308億，你們怎麼可以這樣子呢？地方很多施政要怎麼做？等一下我會進一步來講，這個影響到一般民眾最基礎的需求，影響到很多基礎建設。第二個影響也是很大的，一般性的補助款竟然變成要審查。主計長，我先問你一下，8月28日朝野協商的時候我們就發現你們竟然做了這麼離譜的事情，因為一般性補助款很多都是法定預算嘛，法定的義務支出嘛，包括薪資、退輔那一些，怎麼可能要去審查呢？那一天朝野協商各黨團三長都在，你看，這個文不只是通過，還是總統府公告的喔！要求行政院不能夠將明年的一般性補助款改為申請制，上面不是只有國民黨跟民眾黨的三長簽名，包括我在內，三長都有簽名，我簽了，民進黨的柯建銘、吳思瑤、陳培瑜的簽名都在上面，你現在是怎麼樣？你是打臉柯建銘他們三長，打臉總統府嗎？怎麼可以做這樣的事情？更嚴重的是，你看，你現在馬上把原來的一般補助款砍掉，砍掉的是什麼？教育部分的有659億，全部都砍了，這部分要做什麼？基本教育人員的辦事費、營養午餐的費用、水電費、冷氣、退輔支出、現職的待遇調整，這個錢怎麼能砍呢？","再來，疏濬清淤砍了24億，這些錢是做什麼的？河川的清淤和疏濬，經費是10億元，內政部下水道的經費是14億元，現在颱風、天災那麼多，如果因為你把這個錢砍掉而又出了狀況，你良心會安嗎？一般型補助款怎麼可以這樣改、這樣砍呢？你這個等於是辦法已經逾越了整個財劃法當初的修正了啊，而且你是打臉了整個朝野協商的結論耶！打臉了總統耶！","來，接下來看更嚴重的，計畫型補助款你砍了2,646億，這多嚴重的事情！桃園市直接跟你講，他們桃園力推「珍珠海岸計畫」被砍了，還有校園無障礙設施的補助被砍了，全部都出狀況了。本來明年要給臺中市捷運補助60億元，砍到只給1.6億。基隆縣長跟彰化縣長跑出來講說，本來立法院通過財劃法修正，他們地方的經費是增加的，結果乾坤大挪移，行政院像土匪一樣，像土皇帝一樣亂砍，砍到後來，地方計畫型補助的收入搞不好比財劃法修正以前還要少耶！我給你看一個，連你們民進黨的，而且是你以前服務過的地方，你長久在臺南服務，連臺南的財政稅務局都說，拜託中央，他們有很多計畫型補助款是用在已經實施多年的計畫，是跨年度的計畫，他們希望不要減少，要不然的話，連臺南的水利建設都受影響耶！主計長跟次長，我今天質詢，一方面我要提醒幾個事情，第一個，現在問題不在縣市之間的水平分配，而是垂直分配，而且財劃法本來的精神就是該給地方的錢要給地方，中央不要像土匪，不要像土皇帝，又搶回去了兩千多億，現在是搶回去三分之二，而且我今天很明確地跟你講，這件事已經影響了地方治水的問題、教育的問題、薪資的問題、基礎建設的問題，各縣市政府都出來拜託了，拜託你們這段時間不要只有一直搶錢，我剛說過，萬一天災來了，你連治水的錢都砍掉了，良心何在？小孩子的營養午餐費被你們砍掉了，你於心何忍？好不好？回過頭去想一下。"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員，因為115年預算的籌編是很困難的，我們當初減也是不得已，原來一般性補助和計畫型補助都是屬於縣市應辦的事項，我們把一些基本上屬於應辦的事項回歸給縣市，然後把一些需要中央政策引導性的部分繼續編列，而且我們還簡化整個計畫型補助申請的……"],["張委員啓楷：你現在就是坐在金山上面裝乞丐！中央政府這麼有錢，中央政府目前的總預算光是一年就有三兆，是歷年來最有錢的，明年還編到3兆1,000億耶！你當主計人員那麼久，我跑預算新聞那麼久，以前中央政府的預算兩兆就不得了了，短短這幾年攀升到三兆了，你這麼有錢，你是大富豪，我們的地方政府要嘛是小康，要嘛是小貧，要嘛是赤貧，好不容易財劃法過了，錢要下放了，可以落實地方自治，可以照顧地方建設、照顧地方的人民，你又要使出乾坤大挪移，去搶錢，搶了兩千多億回去。"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是我乾坤大挪移要搶……"],["張委員啓楷：你現在裝窮！主計長，我再給你看一個專業的數據。"],["陳主計長淑姿：它實質上會超過公債款的補助……"],["張委員啓楷：民國88年的時候，中央政府分配到的統籌款是多少？占60.1%。到現在，經過財劃法修正，如果四千多億都下放，還有65.6%，比例比以前還多，以絕對值去看是三兆多耶！你是一個大富翁耶！你現在一直在喊窮如果照你這樣，我跟你講……"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員，這裡面包含省政府11%的業務……"],["張委員啓楷：以前蔡英文、馬英九、陳水扁時期都不要實施，難道整個業務都沒辦法推動了？人家預算一兆多、兩兆多都實施得好好的，你預算有三兆多，結果還一直在裝乞丐。"],["主席：主計長，你都用書面答復，好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["主席：OK。啓楷，後面的部分請他用書面答復。"],["張委員啓楷：抱歉、抱歉，我說最重要的一句話就好了。最重要的是，不要把計畫型補助款砍那麼多，該給地方的，你不能夠兩千九百多億砍了兩千六百多億，砍掉十分之九，這個影響的是地方很多很多的建設，如我剛剛講的，然後一般性補助款，你怎麼可以把它變成是審查？這兩個趕快去改回來。謝謝。"],["主席：主計長，你就用書面去答復好了。","OK。謝謝張委員。","接下來我們請蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉委員不在。","請楊瓊瓔委員，楊瓊瓔委員，楊瓊瓔委員不在。","請鄭天財委員，鄭天財委員，鄭天財委員不在。","請謝衣鳯委員，謝衣鳯委員，謝衣鳯委員不在。","請何欣純委員，何欣純委員，何欣純委員不在。","請王鴻薇委員，王鴻薇委員，王鴻薇委員不在。","請高金素梅委員，高金素梅委員，高金素梅委員不在。","接下來我們請洪孟楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":398,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-3","speakers":["林思銘","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","李坤城","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","羅明才","王世堅","張啓楷","洪孟楷","陳玉珍","楊瓊瓔","高金素梅","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":333,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148701_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處、財政部就「中央對直轄市及縣（市）政府補助辦法修正後，一般性補助款\n審查與評比基準、財務計畫檢核基礎、撥款方式等規範及作業程序為何？修改財力級次計算公式\n之合理性及對各縣市補助款影響為何？計畫型補助款範圍與業務定義？對各縣市未來整體財政補\n助金額之影響」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148701_00014"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}