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謝謝各黨團的幹部都已經到了我們現在就開始進行"},{"start":2243.683,"end":2255.327,"text":"先處理一下吧,在直播著要這樣嗎?我沒有什麼意見謝謝各位新聞記者,謝謝大家,謝謝市長院長未睡便院長殺手,走出去"},{"start":2277.789,"end":2296.393,"text":"我是院長二歲沒有錯,我是林委員總召院長各位委員同仁,今天好不容易因為近半年來小受傷第一次站在備訓台上,上面來執行本身在這裡主要談幾個問題,最主要談程序問題"},{"start":2300.216,"end":2308.472,"text":"那我為什麼要談程序問題呢我們沒有程序正義就沒有實質正義這個絕對的老同就在這個會議室"},{"start":2313.539,"end":2334.054,"text":"檢罷法加一在這個非日舉行在這個非日舉行的時候,國民黨把這門關起來,外面門關起來,然後在這裡開會沒有民進黨參加,那雖然程式上好像合法,程式上看起來合法但是事實上是一個非法,為什麼呢?"},{"start":2335.1,"end":2362.299,"text":"因為沒有讓民進黨參加,而且你們用強制的手段讓我們不能進來用強制的手段讓我們不能進來,然後就送出委員會,然後就出委員會出委員會以後,當然後來我們說我發言給你,說我們有意見他說有意見你再協商,那後來協商的時候大家不歡迎我和善"},{"start":2365.049,"end":2381.943,"text":"那我們同時在任康以前也詢問給你,說這個有問題然後也詢問給醫事處,也給內政委員會內政委員會有五六四要等,五六個林貴卿是上到"},{"start":2383.297,"end":2409.543,"text":"內政委會,給內政委會招委,說這程序有問題,假如這程序可以的話那以後我們業會你就把民進黨,關起來不讓民進黨來就好,法案就三無通過嘛又好像棒球比賽,第二名的把第一名綁架起來,他就比賽他就第一名了,院長這個可以嗎?全世界就,絕對說不通的啦,絕對說不通的,分析不要講話"},{"start":2411.961,"end":2432.166,"text":"你可以用表情表示憤怒,但是不要講話,好不好這哪一通,一來就可以關門了,這是第一點所以我向你抗議,我連日行了很多文言給你向你抗議,所以我說這有理,你說沒有關係"},{"start":2433.817,"end":2459.739,"text":"或者說你就習近平回來,我們就把你排上這個就在蔡偉強的時候,未來蔡偉強排在第一岸,那你講你說你決定接受結果呢,沒有排沒有排,這次習近平就不見了完整那時候他覺得他的審查報告已經出去了他就尊爍,尊爍尊爍沒關係然後"},{"start":2462.591,"end":2468.706,"text":"1月2號、1月3號、1月4號我一直新聞給你包括這個問題有關於這種"},{"start":2473.499,"end":2495.787,"text":"那種程序不正義這個問題 大家好好談一下至少我要結論今天我們那個周恩來怎麼沒有來周秘書長坐在那裡周秘書長這個可以嗎你的書寫不可以 結果你作為是可以我要問我們的藝術處處長高百強這樣可不可以問說這個"},{"start":2505.392,"end":2528.63,"text":"這兩個委員會的主意這樣可以嗎?我相信我相信經常一定會展開調查的我講公務人員法嘛彈劾以後我看退休金也會不見了而且還會有薪責我講公務人員法這個是很嚴肅的事情我在這裡言明在先"},{"start":2529.81,"end":2557.119,"text":"那我不希望就是說韓院長你好不容易當院長以後我們對你很大期待我們希望就是說就建立一個新的國會在你2月1號到3月的時候你跑到議長後面因為當天是我主持嘛我們兩個在院長室裡面聊了很多我有寫一篇臉書我還跟你講說羅宇雄啊"},{"start":2559.688,"end":2572.211,"text":"現在大家要看人家的腦氣,像你的臨床術學不成,我們要這樣去看,比較正經的這是恢復之言啦,我相信你也聽到了,我有寫在臨床上面那在越南31年來,剛才我進來的時候,沒去訪問我,說你還要罵名韓國瑜嗎?"},{"start":2583.083,"end":2605.749,"text":"我是當然罷免啦,民事不可違也要罷免啦,沒什麼麻煩罷免,這代表一個立場問題這是民主基金黨的價值和立場我要說台灣民主能夠往前走很可貴是什麼,很可貴就是說1993年我到立法院以後到2016年總共22年的時間"},{"start":2608.615,"end":2614.098,"text":"我在立法院呈交所有的表決不管委員會 程序委員會 藍綠議員會 僑會一般敗不可以贏到現在為止 很多人說柯總統你引導了民進黨一點用處都沒有表決在立法院表決不可以贏"},{"start":2628.953,"end":2657.599,"text":"這個阿摩事實我們就知道我們51席沒有過半當然一定會輸的嘛但是輸的時候要贏得什麼贏得弄數 贏得民心這是很重要的一個原則所以在22年來在立法院裡面我們從來沒有贏過但是我們堅持一個民主的程序堅持民主要往前走少數一定服從多數"},{"start":2658.991,"end":2683.992,"text":"包括蘇的耍,包括上禮拜前幾天我們為了朝夕協商包括副委員總召、黃文維委員以及林世民委員包括民眾黨我們都在為了建立立環的文化我希望不要再有過去那種的"},{"start":2685.643,"end":2703.095,"text":"沒有人敢做的事情,馬丁凡站你起來,然後點名表決,然後衝突把你丟下來,這都是危險的事情,這一定要結機,不應該再有了。過去,那次院長從劉昌一講,大家都有協商的,吳院長曾經為一個法案協商22次,但一個法案,"},{"start":2713.41,"end":2737.205,"text":"就刑法的扣納 扣納摸索 私民安全法也曾經為了一個法案 刑上二三次都有在場的 失業的管理法 有關永遠自由化的問題這是立法案 所有人都一直成長大家和學生都辯論了不是只有表決而已只有表決而已的話 再加以暗表依據小學生都會所以"},{"start":2742.283,"end":2759.688,"text":"從劉昌憶院長到王院長,王院長當然他是最徹底來進行的院長是喬爾丁萊葉環組織法第三條寫很清楚,院長必須行政忠義院長不能有黨職"},{"start":2766.184,"end":2794.068,"text":"所以韓院長你不可能是中常委吧但是你可以助選你不可能黨職就好了你不可能兼黨主席也不可能中常委這是院長唯一的條件所以助選是可以但是你是國民黨黨員當然所有的作為協商你會比較傾向幫助國民黨這有如何後悔但是那個線要踩得很死"},{"start":2796.375,"end":2822.808,"text":"不行就不行所以今天我在這裡講就是說後來包括蘇嘉嫻院長包括游區副院長至少會把這程序走完有西洋結論才有大家簽名就是說要幾個發言哪幾條條文密西表決要幾個人發言這樣才如果有效率"},{"start":2824.372,"end":2848.824,"text":"至於沒有詳情結論,當然也要說沒有詳情結論要簽一個,那就要依次程序處理什麼叫依次程序處理呢?就是沒有詳情結論的話,那每一個人大於討論都可以發言每一個人主條的討論都可以發言換言之就是說,我們假如沒有詳情結論的話,那警察人士條例大於討論,民進黨五十一個都可以發言"},{"start":2849.878,"end":2870.091,"text":"每一個條文我們可以講五十一個都可以講過去X法的時候當初X法當然我們表決都會輸但是呢,馬英九說可以全案表決,不可以除掉表決我反對"},{"start":2871.772,"end":2897.342,"text":"我說既然可以主張表決,為什麼不能主張表決呢所以我告訴王金平院長以及林義士政客執行長我說這個很簡單一個表決各自表述我們主張表決,你們主張表決所以一個表決各自表述一中就可以各表為什麼一個表決不能各自表述這是很重要的道理"},{"start":2898.925,"end":2924.013,"text":"然後今天我們期待中產生一個新的院長看我過去三十年來這個地方的期待發生很大的落差市民都是非常感傷的就說怎麼國會走到這裡來為什麼何以置之為什麼兩世的中央表演都會這樣反正打架,再打下去會出人命的"},{"start":2925.31,"end":2938.778,"text":"所以那天我一直在兩個禮拜以內在議場方面包括跟副委員長 包括跟國防委等等所有人講說我們醫療都不要受打我們醫療都不要做專業主義台"},{"start":2940.514,"end":2960.379,"text":"我會重塑御友園過去的文化打結束就算了,該實現就實現該實現就實現就是這樣,還沒好,這是引言而已後面有很重大的題目我只是覺得今天稍微想大家好好講一下所以今天"},{"start":2962.455,"end":2977.806,"text":"因為我要跟你講,你在討反自己說這可能你最後一次指揮朝廷的人,我不敢這樣講啦。反正我總是罵你說你是歷史罪人,你也說歷史罪人來了,我說沒有,你也可以變成歷史為人。"},{"start":2980.107,"end":2997.555,"text":"這個台灣自己這種幽默就是一個政治人物很重要最高超的境界台灣自己薄金以燦我非常了解你的心情,而且你的修養這一點我是肯定的我今天講了這麼多就是說我為什麼敢講這些話呢?"},{"start":3004.042,"end":3011.224,"text":"因為大家知道,我想周恩藍秘書長也知道,1999年1月的時候,國會無法公布了什麼叫國會無法?就是立委員組織法、立委員各委員組織法、政幫直接行事法、議事規則以及立委員行為法"},{"start":3026.596,"end":3050.067,"text":"所以才有國會的無法,國會無法就有國會圖書館等等那為什麼要有國會無法?因為1993年我們進來的時候,院長我們那時候進來的時候你當然不會忘記有個場景每次樓上院院長主席宴會的時候公共竊盡一失誤,從開始就晨曦花園大家全部上台排隊"},{"start":3051.243,"end":3065.153,"text":"登記排得很長每一個人都排隊那時候民進黨都排隊去程序發言有時候台商一直講說各位偉大政治家程序沒有問題啊請不要程序不要亂發言"},{"start":3067.165,"end":3084.767,"text":"他的國語是台南國語,請陳水扁隨便發言,那種場景大家都走過,所以後來朝野鄉才轉成一個就是說,大家也要發言"},{"start":3087.13,"end":3096.636,"text":"可是從一個國事論壇,才有國事論壇來演那時候因為沒有國會無法,越南的開會和民間團體開會一樣為什麼?一個人可以擋住全部,一個人就可以擋住整個議會所以以前江炳坤副院長說,他是東大博士"},{"start":3112.711,"end":3136.5,"text":"他以前一直跟我講說這個東西啊 利息消息都有問題大家都感覺立法牛步化 為什麼立法牛步化因為開始的時候一個人 經營大於討論的時候一個人可以擋住節目 他說清點人數一清點人數的時候 人已經不夠 就散會了那時候 那天在某些採訪的時候"},{"start":3141.277,"end":3143.632,"text":"能不能不在能不过"},{"start":3144.898,"end":3168.379,"text":"那你就停下來這個我都知道停下來然後能夠說說民進黨少四個說因為民進黨少四個所以不能說我們會贏不可能贏的因為主席是你你一定會等到暫停等到國民黨都叫回來再表決所以這個遊戲大家都知道所以發生新年新年是以後一個人黨中整個議會"},{"start":3174.067,"end":3192.213,"text":"後來才有直接申訴法,國會委員會直接申訴法直接申訴法就是說有超過28條,超過行政專章因為學生以後就有範圍人數要多少那有個結論,這樣才能夠把整個意識往前推"},{"start":3197.737,"end":3212.857,"text":"也可以說你黨兵去朝野鄉簽下了我不是黨兵的話我可以連署16個人買火車票同意再來他們有7個人被人死了三黨黨兵講好就好就不可抵抗"},{"start":3214.498,"end":3235.334,"text":"假如不是黨編的委員,他也可以說不行,在年九十六個中來所以另外一個執行法是大家設計的非常清楚而且一九九三年的時候,一月的時候這個執行法一直沒有改,只有小吳的修正"},{"start":3236.135,"end":3251.083,"text":"那今天我要談的就是說,我們在直接審查包括第33條,包括我也,等我來立完做國情報告,當初寫的坦白講都有違憲之疑,待會再說明給你聽。那今天我要談的就是說,要把程序性的問題先講好,其實今天關鍵是什麼?這個關鍵就是說,國民黨排了富裕案,明天就要表決。"},{"start":3266.138,"end":3294.055,"text":"那我跟你講說其實大家可以好好談哪一天要因為這個反應程序最後一天一定是16號嘛我們不可能違憲到16號還不讓他處理那把它破壞掉違憲變成我們要背我們不可能幹這種事情變成你民進黨以後抬不起頭來你們就會違憲嘛是不是這樣所以一定會如期不管怎麼樣16號一定要完成"},{"start":3295.418,"end":3309.636,"text":"這個我剛剛還去抓我們不可能一奔到去違憲然後永遠民黨永遠被攻擊那往回我在議員31年來我一直遵守法律遵守憲法"},{"start":3310.857,"end":3339.855,"text":"所以這個也有很重要的觀念我問分區委員其實大家可以我聽他早上四點半打電話給我他說今天要怎麼處理下雨我說讓我們老兄弟講的都直白話大家好好談一定什麼事情都沒有包括我剛剛講的包括會議案也是一樣一定是如期完成但是我們今天要談的是有五個事情一定要談"},{"start":3341.072,"end":3359.961,"text":"我說這個五個事情一定可以談不是不可以談第一個比較重要這個玩意什麼時候結什麼時候要休會韓院長和江副院長一定要到美國去還有我們一堆人要去美國而且是總統指派的"},{"start":3360.888,"end":3381.405,"text":"那我們一定要到10天後一定要結束,這大家要思考只要說美國只有韓院長去,其他人江委員不去,其他人不去的話21號也可以這大家來講都沒有,這都會講的所以這時間最重要第二個,復議案,復議案一定會如期處理"},{"start":3383.223,"end":3407.575,"text":"一定保證如期處理甚至可以提前一兩天才處理總運算要不要處理?前瞻運算要不要處理?台電的這一家運算一千億要不要處理?這都是民生的嘛是不是這樣另外最後一個我說會員選辦法加一要不要處理?"},{"start":3409.284,"end":3430.76,"text":"要處理我們都提早簽給你們提早表決沒有關係反正這個以後要實踐再去實踐嘛我說不要說請幫我加一加二都可以加三都可以所以我們講你這五個問題我們當然好好想好好協商好合而共那簽名節約專訴"},{"start":3433.594,"end":3451.767,"text":"尤其在一百二十幾年的党鞭,我從來用口頭承諾就算數了訪問簽名我從來沒有簽名就發掉的紀錄你去問過去的訪問院長,我從來沒有說蔡英雄簽名以後就跑去把他發掉"},{"start":3453.07,"end":3472.965,"text":"實在這樣常常搞這一套,黃國昌常常搞這一套,法廷,國安黨也常常搞這一套我連口頭表述都是酸素的,也不必錄音所以今天我在這個地方很誠懇的講說,為什麼我今天要好好做程序化"},{"start":3474.318,"end":3495.123,"text":"縱使整個立法院是大家的立法院,是人民的立法院不是韓院長一個人的武林,也不是國民黨一個人的武林,也不是誰黃國昌一個人的武林現在整個國民黨我們都很清楚,他除了沒有這幾個"},{"start":3496.806,"end":3520.189,"text":"民眾黨根本不可能執政嘛柯文哲一審只要判十年以上連選罷法他都不能參選了不想選什麼都不能選國民黨他擺明很清楚嘛大法官事件釋出來他也不承認所有違反亂紀他都認為應該的全部講謊話農民這些應該是人民的期待"},{"start":3521.759,"end":3545.976,"text":"難道你認為台灣的老百姓不是白癡嗎?看不懂立法院在做什麼現在整個國家大家都擔心連百民共產黨的百民也不可能執政也不想執政啊那當然為什麼?因為這國家教育了中國嘛就是大家很清楚所以現在是一個國家深入存活的關鍵就在這幾天"},{"start":3549.13,"end":3573.424,"text":"這老百姓都看得懂所以老百姓看得懂當然我這兩天講過一句話嘛會有罷免,選舉有選舉就有罷免嘛我們戴季武漢天天被國民黨勞令凌遲,因為黃國昌凌遲因為黃國昌亂罵,弄人起來,還陪笑臉為什麼?我們總希望這個很重要的這個很重要的所以說"},{"start":3579.468,"end":3585.553,"text":"沒有關係不要吵等一下你可以講我打補了時間我還要坐在這裡所以我今天要講的就是說我們感觸非常深刻當然我們想罷免但是民眾聲音更大民意已經起來了"},{"start":3599.844,"end":3611.691,"text":"我昨天和今天都講,美書上都寫過,包括胡適雅委員也講過,罷免不是一個人可以主導,不是我柯建民可以主導,也不是一個黨可以主導的。同時,罷免也不是一個黨可以主導的。"},{"start":3622.213,"end":3649.855,"text":"沒有一個人可以出黨也沒有一個人可以出黨因為都在民意都在民意讓民意來解決所以希望就是說在歲末立法院快要結束的時候我們也在這裡一年了應該大家做一個冷靜的總檢討那未來立法院又何去而從我希望今天整個曹雷祥院長你不要為了節省時間我們提了這麼多要請你協商的"},{"start":3652.369,"end":3672.36,"text":"包括總預算等等,包括今天這個請問也可以不談,有關要罷免你的問題也可以不談。但是至少要談一談,對於違法公務員後續他們難道不會怕嗎?以後還可以這樣嗎?這個東西還是實際的,是不是這樣?那為什麼我們連連提了?"},{"start":3678.354,"end":3699.865,"text":"從去年12月提到去年1月2號3號4號我們所提的要求你協商拜託你協商了全部不見今天只有一個題目就是護理案我跟護理員講過一句話假如你今天什麼都不談等一下一風而散排這個會議室就相當的惡意我為什麼要站在這裡"},{"start":3701.107,"end":3729.301,"text":"因為每一黨只有一個麥克風嘛那你沒有辦法壓下一個講話嘛所以我故意再處理一台再換一台講話假如是這樣的惡意的話待會我們的人還是會在誠意上面包括誠意問題上面做發言請韓院長你要包容這是我們一定要談清楚我跟副理講一句話小虎你今天沒有跟我們好好談"},{"start":3730.495,"end":3740.315,"text":"你副議案走得下去的話你自己試看看,明天你走得下去嗎?以後的副議案你走得下去嗎?我說我不是"},{"start":3743.72,"end":3766.426,"text":"我是在講實話,我是在講實話,因為大家不講好當然我們衝突底下,慈平,蘇曉潤藝術者不打,反而壞事情我不是在威脅黃毓民委員,你聽起來有點刺耳,但是你要聽我的內容大家好好講,一定沒問題,大家要揮揮手,大家都想揮揮手"},{"start":3773.568,"end":3784.495,"text":"會發展到什麼地方去?沒有一個人可以預料的謝謝柯總召的程序發言特別報告程序發言了32分鐘扣掉前面的走路大概"},{"start":3796.209,"end":3822.221,"text":"你一個程序發言大概已經25分鐘了好不好,我想以您表達非常,我們還是希望最資深的柯建民委員都是一言九鼎一言九鼎,講話對我們來講說,對對,我還是希望你你最資深的委員希望你一言九鼎,可是如果因為我們今天這個案子齁,是討論憲法輸送法,如果"},{"start":3823.524,"end":3842.317,"text":"偏離題目太多慢慢變成九言一鼎那就不好了總的來說我是良心的建議好不好我還是只要你講話我們都是尊重的因為立法院最資深就是你全立法院最資深就是柯建民委員全台灣最會開會就是我們周恩來秘書長大家都是公認的我們希望你講話還是一樣一言九鼎"},{"start":3842.577,"end":3854.548,"text":"好不好 謝謝那各位黨編我們今天談憲法訴訟法上次已經有非常透徹的討論但是民進黨團又提出希望再度協商所以召集各位黨團幹部來坐在這裡我們來繼續來進行憲法訴訟法復議案那請那個萊文的民進黨團請表達意見好嗎好 蔡 蔡署長請"},{"start":3867.071,"end":3884.386,"text":"國民黨團請準備好 謝謝院長院長一度要說我們柯總召會一言九鼎我想在這個前提之下柯總召講得很清楚他認為說我們大概立法院我們在處理復議案當然是要有復議案的一個程序的一個進行"},{"start":3885.026,"end":3892.828,"text":"那這個程序很重要的就是說他必須要有一個全院委員會那全院委員會要邀請行政院長列席然後我們應該要分頭去報告那這個報告是各個政黨對於復議案的內容那這一次就是我們憲法訴訟法大家會有針對這個條文會有意見那這個條文你怎麼可以說這個條文跟行政院沒有關係不是這樣的"},{"start":3910.652,"end":3933.45,"text":"因為憲法訴訟法涉及到的就是我們要申請釋憲我們要去申請這個憲法法庭針對我們認為有違憲的事宜我們有要提出釋憲的一個權利那這個權利本身行政院也是一個很重要的一個機關所以這個機關跟他有關那尤其這個憲法訴訟法涉及到的又不只是機關"},{"start":3934.631,"end":3957.437,"text":"他更重要的是人民要申請釋憲每一個人他的司法救濟的最終救濟權就是要靠憲法法庭那這個憲法訴訟法未來他這樣一旦讓他上路讓他生效之後他必須要有十個大法官才能召開要有九個大法官才能申請違憲這件事情對於人民的司法的救濟權影響太大"},{"start":3959.418,"end":3963.921,"text":"所以行政院秉持著這個理由他提出復議當然行政院長基於他憲法的職權基於他對於人民有這樣的司法救濟權不應該被法律被立法權把司法救濟權把他"},{"start":3975.787,"end":3993.075,"text":"把他傷害把他侵害所以基於這樣的理由行政院長當然要來立法院報告啊那我們過去在上一次協商的時候我有跟院長報告過在過去唯一有一次沒有邀請行政院長來立法院報告那就是在2013年會計法99之一"},{"start":3996.737,"end":4024.98,"text":"會計法99之一當年是因為立法過程可能在立法的一個瑕疵結果少了一個字一個教 教師的教少了這一個字咧讓當時的大學教授他們因為研究案然後在做這個財務的一個會計的申報的時候有瑕疵然後會被網羅入罪當年也包括柯文哲柯文哲在還在台大醫院服務的時候他也包括他也有陷入這樣的狀況"},{"start":4026.081,"end":4046.567,"text":"那但是那一次的會計法修法結果就把那個叫這個字遺漏掉了那遺漏掉了當然就會有很多人會受到影響啊所以當時馬英九總統他也對外表達歉意然後行政院用最快的速度提出復議那立法院也在朝野有充分共識之下那就沒有再邀請行政院長來"},{"start":4048.067,"end":4058.928,"text":"來立法院來報告那就直接就直接就處理復一案了所以那是那個時空背景但是那個時空背景至少有一個很大的原則就是朝野對於這個復一案有共識"},{"start":4061.462,"end":4083.412,"text":"那很明顯的我們現在民進黨我們對於這個限訴法的復議案我們的立場看起來跟國民黨跟民眾黨立場不一樣所以朝野沒有共識那既然朝野沒有共識的話我覺得院長你還是要履行整個程序的一個完備程序的完整然後讓行政院院長可以來立法院報告"},{"start":4084.332,"end":4091.616,"text":"然後讓我們每個人透過跟行政院長我們透過質詢的內容把我們認為我們對於會計法這一次復議案以及會計法上路後會對人民的這個訴訟權的傷害我們總是能通過這樣的一個這個詢答的過程再次表達我們的立場那這個詢答的人數我想我們可以朝野協商可以溝通"},{"start":4109.545,"end":4125.656,"text":"大家在溝通說好我們為了要卡在15天內一定要處理復議案那如果卡在15天內的話最後一天大概是1月16號所以我想我們可以在下個禮拜我們可以召開全院委員會我們也可以再用加開院會的方式然後我們來排這樣的一個把議程把它完備然後讓我們每個人都可以充分發言那如果院長覺得會不會程序上又被發言去卡住了那我們剛剛柯總召也說啊"},{"start":4140.025,"end":4164.678,"text":"他說他用他的人格保證他一定會讓整個復議案會讓他處理所以我們可以控制發言的人數就像我們之前在處理幾個法案的時候上禮拜五我們在處理法案的時候不管是551或者甚至條文的時候只剩下111但是那都是在朝野共識之下怎樣把時間控制在當天內可以處理法案"},{"start":4165.698,"end":4180.532,"text":"可以完整可以處理法案所以我覺得院長我們如果在秉持著這樣的一個精神那大家同意之下下個禮拜讓行政院長來列席讓我們可以質詢然後再用最快的時間安排最後復議案的表決那"},{"start":4182.216,"end":4204.281,"text":"就像我們總召說的如果表決民進黨還是輸了那我們自己再尋求之後的救濟途徑那就變我們自己黨團的後續的決策但是至少立法院我們展現的就是說我們對於程序應該怎麼走這件事情是有堅持的那過去有太多的復議案的前例在前面那唯一一個沒有邀請"},{"start":4206.536,"end":4223.9,"text":"行政院長還報告的就是只有那一個狀況那一個狀況是朝野有共識朝野對於復議案的內容有共識那我們今天是沒有共識的好不好 院長我們再當還是希望可以照程序來進行謝謝蔡書記長發言請國民黨團發言台灣民眾黨請準備好 謝謝院長首先我要對蔡宇宜書記長針對說要不要邀請行政院長來這一點那我想剛才柯總早講很清楚"},{"start":4235.973,"end":4256.799,"text":"程序正义我们一定要遵守今天为什么我们不邀请我们认为不用邀请行政院长来这完全依照我们立法院职权行使法第33条的规定这是依法有据的那我们认为行政院长他今天也表达在该记者会表达非常清楚他的对整个复议案他的看法"},{"start":4257.864,"end":4283.429,"text":"那在现在这个时期就现在我们的总预算很迫在眉睫要省的这个阶段是不是我们在复议案要花那么多的时间我想我们各党真的要慎重的思考如果说我们还在拖拖到最后一天16号然后21号我们就要这个休会了你再拖我们总预算真的省不完"},{"start":4284.653,"end":4305.745,"text":"我想三档对于总预算赶快在这个会期就尽数把它就在休会前把它三度通过这也是全国民众因应期期盼的所以我们搞不清楚为什么民进党一直坚持要在16号这有什么意义呢我们真的搞不清楚所以我其实我是觉得说"},{"start":4306.909,"end":4328.579,"text":"柯总召在上次院长我们在这个院会的后面那个小协商室的时候他就提到啊他说行政院长不用来报告他他没问题他有做这样的承诺所以今天又讲说行政院长该预讲一定要请行政院长来我想程序上是没有问题的那"},{"start":4331.147,"end":4339.826,"text":"這個院長也已經記者會講那麼清楚了所以我覺得我們整個不要請來不要請他來絕對站得住腳啊這第一點第二點哦"},{"start":4341.377,"end":4364.549,"text":"我想我們這個整個在復議的程序裡面就說如果要找那是不是我們希望就在明天盡速來處理明天盡速來處理那我們希望民進黨這個一言九鼎就讓整個復議案我們就依照相關的規定我們來做這個表決碼所以剛才聽到你們又恐慌說什麼不去試試看你們如果這樣做不去試試看"},{"start":4367.771,"end":4395.951,"text":"这种恐吓的你一开始就讲说这个程序正义很重要实质正义很重要我们照程序走你又恐吓我们这个真的无息中我们在之前还是怎么样听到在资深的前辈一下子讲这样子一下子讲那样子前后都都不起来了所以我觉得说如果真的要让立法院往前走的话让意识能够和谐的话大家就"},{"start":4397.233,"end":4405.631,"text":"柯總常常講叫不來啊就不要再佔主席台了嘛不要再破壞整個投票的程序了嘛大家叫不來嘛"},{"start":4407.979,"end":4431.206,"text":"既然程序的规定那么清楚我们就请这个议事处安排整个投票的流程让我们尽速让复议案把它完成然后未来我们对于我们的总预算我们赶快的来把总预算省完因为我们剩下下个礼拜的时间而已我们还要二轮的这个这个二轮的协商我们党团的协商那我预计时程"},{"start":4431.986,"end":4452.961,"text":"一定要在下个礼拜二以前把这个二轮的那个党团的提案处理完毕才会会诊然后开始我们就要一系列的挑灯夜山进行党团的协商啊这协商完毕我们最多只能剩几天可以表决只有下下礼拜一跟二这整个时程非常的紧凑"},{"start":4454.002,"end":4471.811,"text":"所以你要到16號16號才處理附議案那我們總計算怎麼審得完所以我們建議就是明天明天就來處理以上謝謝院長謝謝林市民署長表達的意見接下來請台灣民眾黨團請吳春城幹事長請表達意見好吳春城那個幹事長請發言"},{"start":4486.125,"end":4491.628,"text":"剛才我們柯總召講到要重塑國會的文化不要打架"},{"start":4501.994,"end":4526.914,"text":"昨天我也陪韓院長接待日本的台橋的聯合會總會很多人都在反應 其實他們講其實也給院長有一點不太有面子因為他們說他們真的是在海外看他們都很熱愛台灣但是真的會覺得每天看到國會"},{"start":4528.464,"end":4553.252,"text":"在打架 真的讓他們在國外感到很丟臉我們的國家 我們的祖國怎麼是這樣子所以非常呼應剛才柯總召所提的的確是應該重塑我們的國外文化就是大家能夠和諧像撞促法在通過的時候"},{"start":4553.732,"end":4566.998,"text":"三檔那個畫面如果能跟我回應都是說三檔大合影然後大家一起喔看到了真是很感動的說很久沒看到很久沒看到這樣啦但現在是這樣子啦現在是這樣子啦就是說對啦現在就是說我們現在喔"},{"start":4580.591,"end":4587.224,"text":"不要這樣一直吵啦就是說立法院然後憲法的訴訟案訴訟的這裡"},{"start":4590.666,"end":4611.807,"text":"其實這個我們都很用心去研究是用比較國際各國的比較憲法其實現在這個版本提出來的其實是符合國際的這個我們花了很多心思才開研討會事實上是沒有不是一個擴權的一個法案"},{"start":4612.568,"end":4626.649,"text":"是一個大家因為憲法都是何等的要慎重我們現在的憲法法庭真的是也沒有獲得人民的信任那成為一個政治鬥爭的一個"},{"start":4628.371,"end":4645.306,"text":"一個舞台的確是這個的確要檢討了的確是這樣子所以我們本黨這個回應的一個就是覺得行政院不該提出復議"},{"start":4646.787,"end":4675.378,"text":"那既然提出復議我們就是依照這個立法院的行持職權議事規則來處理基本上是認為那個行政院不要越處代跑不要把司法院變成司法科司法局不能就行政院擴權那比立法院擴權還厲害的什麼事情立法院通過了都不執行這個非國家之福這個是民眾黨的基本立場"},{"start":4677.873,"end":4681.661,"text":"謝謝吳村城幹事長的發言接下來吳世堯幹事長請發言公民黨團請準備"},{"start":4690.133,"end":4707.406,"text":"謝謝院長首先就今天的協商主題只排一案就是限訴法覆議案的處理日程黨團還是覺得非常的好奇為什麼只排這一案事實上民進黨團行文給韓院長認為我們朝野協商要進行的議案很多"},{"start":4708.186,"end":4712.928,"text":"包括呢這個前瞻基礎建設的預算包括台電追加減的預算包括公平會人事同意權的預算也包括民進黨團提案立法院政府院長改選的案子被程序委員會一再的阻擋這些案子等等呢都是在我們發文希望一定要透過朝野協商來進行但今天只排這一案我們覺得非常的這種選擇性排案實在有備常理哦"},{"start":4735.538,"end":4761.173,"text":"那第二个呢回到今天的主题就限诉法的复议案的部分那本席这边还是要再说明一下就限诉法他影响的是所有的国人的权利宪法救济的权利他同时也当然影响着国家最高行政机关行政院的权益所以"},{"start":4762.458,"end":4790.358,"text":"行政院基于对于限诉法他本身也是stakeholder他也必须为人民来寻求救济的手段所以行政院来提请这个复议案而且卓院长愿意负责任到立院来寻答让整个限诉法的复议案就是重新审视重新讨论再行重新议决这是整个复议案在宪法制度上的设计"},{"start":4791.138,"end":4818.308,"text":"如果一个重新审视议案是不是至爱难行而不透过讨论直接表决这完全是颠覆推翻了复议案重新审视议案的宪政设计的原理那讲到过去的惯例刚私名委员一直说立职法的规范复议案不必然一定要求来询答"},{"start":4819.068,"end":4834.43,"text":"我想史上唯一就立法院职权刑事法一九九九上路到现在几次的复议案的行使唯一的例外极端的例外而且是就会计法刚刚易宇委员已经说过了而大家不要忘记"},{"start":4835.291,"end":4852.337,"text":"会计法之所以没有进行询答就进行复义案的表决它有几个前提第一个它本身是单一条字单一文字的缺漏它的很单纯很简单不需要再讨论"},{"start":4853.325,"end":4875.08,"text":"大家都理解第二该次2013会计法不进行询答直接处理复议案的投票也是经过行政立法两院的共识协商决议说这个案子行政院他觉得他也可以不用来询答立法院也同意"},{"start":4875.74,"end":4902.007,"text":"而在立法院的内部各党团也有共识都说好那这个案子各党都不询答大家都OK所以他的前提除了是法案复议案的内容相对单纯第二他是在行政立法的共识下立院各党团的共识下做成不询答的决定除了那个极端例外的例子之外"},{"start":4902.927,"end":4921.238,"text":"从2002年才化法的复议案有寻达15个人次2003年公投法的复议案有寻达23个朝野立委寻达2004年319枪击事件真相调查委员会的复议案"},{"start":4922.645,"end":4948.084,"text":"有询答23个委员询答第四次是农会法渔会法在2007年的复议案朝野各推五位立委询答再来地政事法第五条之一的修正案的复议案2014年同样的朝野共推17位不同党派的委员经过协商上台询答"},{"start":4949.185,"end":4976.841,"text":"再到上个会期的国会扩权法案也是在韩院长主持的朝野协商里头大家都认为这么重要的复议案涉及宪政层级的一定要透过询答所以朝野民进党11位国民党11位民众党两位总共24位上台询答所以从立法院职权行使法上路到现在总共有"},{"start":4978.934,"end":5002.883,"text":"七次对不起六次的复议案都是经过完整的询答程序所以这才是惯例这才是常态请不要把会计法那个极端特殊的案例把它归类为这是复议案不询答就表决的合理化的常态的理由这完全说不通"},{"start":5003.783,"end":5023.971,"text":"所以说我们看到卓永泰院长他愿意来询答我们看到在野党委员像刚刚几位委员都说的村长委员也提到限诉法真的有剥夺人民的权利吗有这么严重吗好大家询答的时候吴春成委员可以就您想探寻的问题跟卓院长直求对决"},{"start":5025.786,"end":5037.54,"text":"國民黨的委員更是如此憲法訴訟法是你們提出來的版本你們要捍衛你們的版本你要認為你們的版本沒有違憲你們勇敢的站上質詢台一起來對話卓院長都願意來你們在害怕什麼"},{"start":5042.68,"end":5060.235,"text":"這是第一個不要剝奪行政院長他擁有的憲政權利立法院沒有那麼大不是立法院叫你來你就來叫你不來你就不能來這是人家憲法機關的憲政權利第二個講到立法院內立法院有三個主要政黨民進黨是少數黨但我們也有51個席次"},{"start":5065.404,"end":5087.274,"text":"民进党的委员针对复议案非常的慎重因为是重新审视reconsideration的过程我们想再跟行政院长来透过对话来针对宪法诉讼法是否有至爱难行之处是否有违宪之余来充分对话我们有我们的权利"},{"start":5088.294,"end":5116.439,"text":"所以民進黨的委員也要求我們要那今天少數黨發聲的權利不應當被多數黨予以閹割跟剝奪如果你們不想尋答OK啊我們協商啊像上個會期排24個啊國民黨11個民進黨11個民進黨2個你們國民黨不想你們放棄你們尋答的權利那你排定你不來你不問就好了我們常常總質詢不都這樣嗎你改書面質詢也也可以啊"},{"start":5117.279,"end":5142.312,"text":"民進黨委員我們想認真的對話我們不想能撈就撈能混就混不好意思我必須這樣講那為什麼要剝奪我們認真要尋答的權利呢如果你們放棄我們把協商的人次順序排好那我們要問啊時間還給我我的權利所以說時間上也是足夠的從今天開始到"},{"start":5147.287,"end":5174.949,"text":"宪法赋予的复议案的15天议决的期限还有total5个4days5个全日当中有两个是院会的时间我们还可以把其他委员会的时间来调整议程把它改开全院委员会还有5个时间5天的4days在担心时间不够吗"},{"start":5176.229,"end":5183.255,"text":"我不懂啊然後在野島委員現在說會延宕到總預算審查的期程就實在讓我覺得"},{"start":5185.114,"end":5204.521,"text":"倒果為因耶總預算是誰當初我們8月30送來的時候擋了70天11月8號才讓他附委總預算是哪一個委員會現在還沒有排審完就在樓上司法法治委員會吳宗憲委員排的最後一個最末班是誰在延宕總預算啊"},{"start":5207.882,"end":5225.544,"text":"我們一定會努力如期不管是照原定1月21號休會日完全總預算的期程這本來就是立法院各黨都應當善盡的我們的忠誠義務啊或者是院長要到美國去我們甚至加班再加班讓院會要提早"},{"start":5226.645,"end":5243.38,"text":"結束也可以但是完全總預算我們都有信心啊你開會到12點我們奉陪啊開會到5點我們也奉陪啊我們要把該交的作業寫出來這才是立法院的工作不要拿總預算來阻擋復議案的詢答程序"},{"start":5247.993,"end":5260.168,"text":"這是慣例這是常態這是憲政的原則這是行政院擁有的憲法權利也是立法院各個立委享有的問政的權利不要用多數黨"},{"start":5262.059,"end":5277.198,"text":"的意志就来剥夺没收我们想要行使我们职权的权利所以报告院长时间是够的还有5个4days到距离1月16号复议案的最后一天"},{"start":5278.516,"end":5300.263,"text":"表決書我們認了可是這當中的對話重新審視真理越辯越明這一定要進行所以思銘委員我們都是私自背的我們都是要重新思考透過思考才能夠來確認夫一案是不是合理對不對所以不要害怕直球對決謝謝謝謝思瑤思銘堂兄妹接下來我們請王浩衛委員發言民眾黨團請準備"},{"start":5308.786,"end":5330.274,"text":"好謝謝主席我想先講一下就說有關於國會和諧的問題沒有人想要打架我們又不是神經病老講我都覺得我是氣質美女我也不想到這邊來潑婦罵戒也不想動手但是我們要想看誰是始作俑者我們這個從上個會期到現在"},{"start":5335.236,"end":5354.456,"text":"每一次在兩黨都有霸佔主席台我承認兩黨都有霸佔主席台但是問題是霸佔主席台的目的完全不一樣啊不管是在委員會裡面或在院會裡面民進黨的霸佔主席台的目的是讓會開不成"},{"start":5357.515,"end":5386.662,"text":"不管是在内政委员会或在院会里面就是让你的会议开不成所以我想请问一下这样是一个合理的国会吗这是一个符合民主程序的国会吗我想不管院长副院长或者我们秘书长或者所有议事人员也很感慨也很为难大家谁不想好好的坐在那里开会呢"},{"start":5388.437,"end":5401.75,"text":"對 大家都是正常的嘛 大家都是正常人我們沒有想要打架而國民黨有沒有霸佔主席台 也有但是國民黨的霸佔主席台是為了讓會議能夠進行不得不 迫不得已 實在不得不為"},{"start":5410.6,"end":5432.288,"text":"所以我要講就說國會和諧是大家的責任我同意然後我們現在國會紛紛擾擾那確實讓很多民眾會擔心我也同意但是我們必須把它釐清責任誰是始作俑者好這一點不要各打五十大板或者把責任推給在野黨錯"},{"start":5434.42,"end":5439.321,"text":"我們是為了讓會議能夠召開這一點我們必須要很清楚的來說明接下來我們今天其實重點就是我們限訴法的附議案我們在上一次的協商雖然我們覺得其實這個協商已經經過院長的開會協調但是院長很尊重民進黨"},{"start":5460.928,"end":5482.036,"text":"而國民黨跟民眾黨我們今天也都坐在這邊我們也很尊重民進黨再次提出所以我們也願意在這邊再做協商那包括剛才光是柯總召一個程序發言漏漏長將近30分鐘我們也非常的尊重就讓他發言"},{"start":5483.897,"end":5487.78,"text":"所以我必須要講即便在我們的協商的過程裡面我們也表達了充分尊重那至於就是說我們現在就是處理復議的時間因為確實我們接下來只剩下四個院會那當然我們也可以去協商加開院會但是呢也不要這個忘記因為我們在復議案的過程裡面"},{"start":5512.72,"end":5517.205,"text":"必須除了院會來處理這個表決案之外也要召開那個全院審查會那這樣的一個過程就是我們不然的話我們就是占有委員會的時間所以確實我們的時間已經非常非常的緊迫"},{"start":5530.78,"end":5553.976,"text":"只有四个院会的时间那我们到目前为止我们现在中央政府总预算我们还没有进行协商因为我们协商也要花时间即便虽然我们都已经做好要甚至挑灯夜战马拉松式的协商但是我们也要考虑就如同刚才柯总统也讲到院长要去美国参加就职典礼"},{"start":5560.98,"end":5580.572,"text":"那么江副院长当然我们情商啊为什么要让江副院长留下来因为柯总召已经对外说了说如果院长不在副院长也不在就由他来主持会议那我们听了以后呢会有一点害怕所以我们还是希望至少我们的江副院长来主持会议"},{"start":5581.753,"end":5586.938,"text":"所以我們現在這個時間點來說的話只剩下四次院會也許要加開院會但是我們能不能處理中央政府總預算有時候我覺得很荒謬照理說比較著急總預算的應該是執政黨"},{"start":5605.069,"end":5609.071,"text":"通過了其實是執政黨在這個行政部門在使用可是我覺得好奇怪我覺得這幾天給我的感覺是為什麼反而是執政黨不急著不急著來處理總預算反而急著要花很多的時間來處理復議案如果按照如果按照說由行政院長來報告"},{"start":5632.364,"end":5655.616,"text":"然後11 11加224位那請問一下我們要花多少時間來做就是院長的報告跟院長的答詢等一下我剛剛沒有打斷你們待會就可以提出來嘛你們的版本啊對不對那今天其實院長報告這個平台老講現在是一個資訊網路極為發達的時代"},{"start":5661.391,"end":5687.224,"text":"站在立法院的这个议事厅里面来报告跟他今天在行政院召开记者会报告他的诉求也都可以充分的让国人知道不是吗好当然刚才在讲说呃我那个吴思瑶干长说这叫做宪政权利什么叫宪政权利啊请问一下宪法里面有规定吗"},{"start":5688.514,"end":5705.436,"text":"憲法裡有規定說立法院處理復議案必須要請行政院長來報告嗎憲法裡面沒有任何的明文規定啊沒有任何規定啊那請問憲政權力不是今天一人一黨"},{"start":5707.49,"end":5721.896,"text":"說了算嗎或醫院說了算嗎他的憲政權利所有人民憲政權利不是用憲法保障就是法律上來保障好那剛才我們的書記長秦思明書記長也講得非常清楚依照立法院職權行使法33條也是德嘛"},{"start":5726.84,"end":5733.023,"text":"也是德所以在最好的狀況之下如果今天我們的院會我們整個的立法院的議事程序是足夠充裕的話那當然我們就請院長來報告但是現在眼看的是極為極為的急促"},{"start":5747.21,"end":5775.593,"text":"在中央政府总预算部分也可以跟大家报告因为我们也很着急所以我们在以我们国民党团来讲我们在下个礼拜一就停止收件然后我们希望充分配合因为恐怕这个院长在出国之前也要花很长的时间来做协商对不对我们也要给院长和各政党各提案的委员各委员会"},{"start":5776.974,"end":5787.974,"text":"有充分的中央政府总预算说明跟讨论的时间嘛复议案这么重要也重要但是老实说复议案越来越成为家常便饭了嘛"},{"start":5788.752,"end":5808.382,"text":"我們早就已經開了憲政的這個前例嘛現在我們已經是最短時間裡面行政院提出復議案啊短短在在幾個月七個月時間吧搞不好以後會更更更短喔兩三個月就來一次兩三個月就來一次"},{"start":5809.222,"end":5829.968,"text":"这个都变成家常便饭了嘛我们预算一年省一次不重要吗所以为什么我们在极短的时间里面是不是可以留给中央政府总预算比较充裕的时间来做讨论你们一直在指责说我们司法法制委员会其他委员会都完成了"},{"start":5831.738,"end":5838.985,"text":"對不對 那在這樣的狀況之下我們21號 21號我們表定時間 21號要休會那還要拖什麼呢好 那剛才也講 我非常我非常感謝我們剛才柯總召說 他說他發誓他說他發誓 反正我們都有直播啦我相信我沒有講錯"},{"start":5857.483,"end":5863.849,"text":"他說啊一定要要完成這個憲政的程序不會違憲他說否則的話民進黨也要被罵會被罵死啊沒錯啊不只民進黨被罵我們都要被罵死啊怎麼可以怠惰成這樣好但是為什麼要16號才來完成呢為什麼我不懂啊這個"},{"start":5878.978,"end":5882.622,"text":"很多人家在民間都可以加班對不對為什麼我們要等到16號16號完成醫事人員還要我們為什麼要讓醫事人員那麼過勞這樣我們是霸凌醫事人員"},{"start":5894.193,"end":5899.257,"text":"因為他感知說不要到時候我們說我們完成了我們就回家睡大覺了意思人員要整理啊你當我們完成之後這個就生效了嗎 沒有啊所以我們不要霸凌意思人員嘛為什麼一定要16號才能完成我不懂欸我不懂這個期程到底是什麼意思呢要讓大家最後壓線嗎我們可以提早完成就提早完成"},{"start":5922.874,"end":5935.597,"text":"所以在明天我們因為事實上我們把在星期二的時候我們幾乎把押箱的很多的法案都清倉了嘛好都也清倉的差不多好所以我們在明天星期五所以我為什麼提出星期五我們可以大家全力來處理這個復議案我們把復議案處理完成之後大家沒有後顧之憂了吧對不對"},{"start":5947.799,"end":5953.444,"text":"那而且在一定要開審查會嘛一定要一定放心啦也會一定讓你們講話啦齁那麼這樣子明天我們把它做好我們下禮拜全新的來去處理這個預算案你們本來民進黨團也提出有關中央政府總預算的問題嘛對不對還前瞻台電反正一頭拉骨啦"},{"start":5969.958,"end":5988.291,"text":"一一拖拉鼓所以我們要處理的真的非常非常多我們下禮拜我們騰出手來騰出時間好好的去處理中央政府總預算這不是然後即使是如此我們也要加班下禮拜我們也要加班我都已經決定我不要戴隱形眼鏡來了"},{"start":5989.612,"end":6007.334,"text":"大家受不了了好所以在这样的状况之下所以我们还是觉得既然柯总召这么是大体是大局觉得说不会把他拖延为限那我们就星期五我们努力星期五把它完成下礼拜大家"},{"start":6007.854,"end":6012.657,"text":"都可以好好處理政府總預算那我真的覺得就是說如果今天民進黨團的立場是我們不能違憲我們只要把這個相關的憲政的處理程序把它處理完那麼我們就把它處理完但是我覺得放到16號完成我不懂這個到底是什麼意思是要讓我們提心吊膽還是我們要去霸凌議事人員呢對不對"},{"start":6036.013,"end":6051.43,"text":"好這個這個就拜託一下好對不起那個主席讓我再補充一下因為我我覺得一直都在講一些有的沒有的事情也就是限速法就是說啊這個限速法怎麼自愛難行怎麼自愛難行其實我們過去提過"},{"start":6055.174,"end":6078.834,"text":"我们现在宪法法庭确实我们九成以上的案件是来自于受理民众的来提示宪案但是你知道吗事实上我们不受理的比例就是民众没错大部分九成是来申请但是根本不受理的高达九成五啊"},{"start":6080.12,"end":6099.376,"text":"即便最近不是高鴻安的案子後來法官說不要審了暫時停止審理說要去提釋憲但是很多人都認為很可能他也不受理因為他每個月都是上百件財政就不受理不受理不受理所以你一直在那邊講對民眾的程序怎麼樣權益影響多大多大多大你去問一下那你為什麼要駁回九成五呢你根本沒有在受理嘛"},{"start":6107.503,"end":6113.328,"text":"那所以我們這部分就是因為你們講我們必須要做一些回應嘛所以這點一定要再做一些回應所以在這邊呢還是請大家能夠去能夠大家支持啦就是我們在明天在我們法案裡都清倉差不多的狀況之下我們抓緊時間趕快把賦予案趕快完成"},{"start":6132.685,"end":6141.332,"text":"那行政院長今天都報告啦 媒體都報 我都拜讀啦 對不對 我都很清楚啦 好不好那然後我們各黨團 還是可以去充分的發言這樣就好了 好不好 謝謝謝謝黃威偉 那台灣民眾黨還要再發言嗎李昆仁委員請準備"},{"start":6153.714,"end":6174.033,"text":"剛剛施堯說林思敏是四字輩我發現林思敏很多交集他跟柯建銘也是明字輩的你們是明字輩的那我們兩個是成字輩所以事實上是很容易達成共識的"},{"start":6176.096,"end":6183.66,"text":"我看了半天 我一直很認真在看我就是看不懂這個自然難行的理由當然可以請教"},{"start":6194.525,"end":6214.535,"text":"第四條第三項裡面現在的修正條文說大法官就是如果未滿人數總統應該在兩個月內補足提名行政院自然難行的理由說這樣子只片面要求總統兩個月內來補提名"},{"start":6218.369,"end":6225.317,"text":"違對與提名後立法院應與何時期限來行使同意權均未有規定"},{"start":6226.977,"end":6249.492,"text":"就是我提名但是你們沒有什麼同意啊我這也未免太沒有信任感的這個就是叫政治責任嘛那你總統的一個責任就是不足你趕快給他提到足但現在的就是提出好人選然後你就向考試委員提出大家可接受的人選"},{"start":6251.173,"end":6265.509,"text":"草野不是很快的就過關了嗎 都沒有問題嘛那也不要就說 所以就趕快大家解決問題提出了你的好人選這樣子馬上解決問題了 不要再用釋憲的方式來解決"},{"start":6269.053,"end":6285.912,"text":"再來的話就是對於第30條這裡說現在參與評議的修正案裡面的大法官人數不能低於10人然後如果宣告違憲不可以低於9人行政院的一個"},{"start":6287.393,"end":6301.537,"text":"說這個提高這個判決的門檻會造成少數意見主導憲法法庭 我這個也聽不懂提高門檻反而會變成少數那我要問 那個憲法法庭廢死的時候用一字決"},{"start":6303.658,"end":6328.283,"text":"那一字決不是一個人就可以主導整個的憲法法庭每一個案子的理由都不一樣我覺得這個也很不合理而且現在來講現在我們這個參考像美國大法官九位他要釋憲的時候必須要六位就三分之二美國韓國大法官九位"},{"start":6330.813,"end":6353.961,"text":"他要開會要七個人九個人要有七個人三分之二加一喔三分之二加一喔然後呢 南非也是三分之二加一喔所以我們現在呢 這樣子呢應該是符合國際大家常態的法規啦OK OK 好好好謝謝村長那個李昆仲委員請麻煩掌握一下時間對焦 謝謝"},{"start":6356.922,"end":6367.467,"text":"為什麼我講的時候才叫我掌握時間他們講的時候都沒有說要掌握時間主席對不起主席主席對不起主席我要會議詢問主席其實我們大家都互相尊重可是我們過去也講就是說我們在協商的時候我們今天協商的氣氛其實是算非常好對不對但是我們本來就是都是山長發言"},{"start":6384.275,"end":6394.921,"text":"對不對民進黨團三長都發言過了是不是那所以我現在你是要限制我發言嗎我還在會議許願中我還在會議許願中我剛就講說我們都已經都已經非常的大家都已經非常尊重這樣講有失氣質啊"},{"start":6409.188,"end":6411.591,"text":"我有什麼失氣質我氣質就這樣然後我一直就說喔就說大家互相尊重你態度好喔我就睜一隻眼閉一隻眼啊"},{"start":6420.302,"end":6446.535,"text":"态度不好那我们过去这个不是由你来评断谁的态度好谁的态度不好好不好那请问你现在有什么你现在有什么我为什么不能来发言院长可以让我发言我就发言了啊他们只有一个人为什么你要发言四个人你想吵架是不是我就一直希望说大家互相尊重不要吵架对不对不要吵架你吵骂安"},{"start":6447.876,"end":6449.778,"text":"現在是實質問題不是誠信問題所以實質問題討論的時候大家可以發言"},{"start":6464.469,"end":6482.325,"text":"沒有 所以尊重那個主席主席所以我意思說齁我們其實我們過去就有講就是說我們其實基本上是那個三長嘛 對不對那如果你不是三長我們真的我也可以叫一堆人我們就不停的冗長發言了嘛 是不是這樣子不好嘛 是不是好 所以我就覺得各黨團要有互相的尊重"},{"start":6485.428,"end":6510.145,"text":"對我來講有超出時間很長的但是呢我覺得只要這個氣氛融洽這個態度不要太惡劣我們都願意尊重所以我講了嘛你態度好我就睜一隻眼閉一隻眼你態度不好我就只好提出來所以主席這個院長其實我尊重院長的才是但是不要讓人家覺得得了便宜還賣乖今天我們是三長嘛"},{"start":6514.778,"end":6525.266,"text":"川產只有一個人來嘛是不是所以態度好一些尊重大家一些基本的尊重不會嗎你不要再講話我跟紅衛委員報告一下我也跟各位黨團幹部報告一下"},{"start":6535.074,"end":6559.088,"text":"目前為止,今天開會到現在,他這個run是順暢的那柯總召,感覺上民進黨發言三個,但柯總召他很聰明他一開始用程序發言,所以他是用了一個很技巧等到柯總召發言完畢之後,我立刻請國民黨團開始詢現在吳思瑤跟蔡宜兩位都講完了國民黨團林思明跟洪維偉也講完了所以我特別請吳春城委員,他講了兩次"},{"start":6560.559,"end":6573.071,"text":"兩次,這一點就是要跟大家報告,我們一定是照過去的慣例,讓三個黨團不管人多人少能夠平均公平發言,這一點一定要讓黨團能夠量度"},{"start":6575.794,"end":6582.178,"text":"你不能再發,因為現在要李昆成委員發,我已經講了王宏偉提出會議詢問,所以讓王宏偉先會議詢問我一開始講說是程序問題或是前因問題前因問題是讓會議能夠開得下去"},{"start":6603.069,"end":6624.116,"text":"那黃文威講的話我也聽得懂啦李紛呈也有他的道理他剛才吵起來也有道理吵起來也有道理啦我現在嚴閉稱讚黃文威嚴閉稱讚黃文威總可以吧但是我要講一個比較實際的問題我們現在講的不是只有實質的問題只有誠信的問題因為這個牽涉到整個"},{"start":6632.086,"end":6658.048,"text":"憲政裡面的大問題我常常講說要當一個立法委員乃至於當官員都要有國務法及憲法上的常識我今天講的這是一個國家憲政體制上非常重要的問題同時我要談一個就是說實質問題的時候當然誰都可以講話純為成績問題就三掌來就過了我們以前都這樣講"},{"start":6659.437,"end":6685.526,"text":"那還有一個就是說,我們大家翻一翻,所有的法令,八六、全書以及職業信訊法、義務規則等等,有沒有哪一條規定,花你的吃吃飯時間?沒有。這是民主的展示啦。但是我還是覺得大家氣氛好,慢慢講沒有關係。所以我一直很,講話的時候,我一直看,"},{"start":6687.026,"end":6687.427,"text":"我絕對不是,請我可以講話嗎?好,謝謝院長"},{"start":6704.755,"end":6719.75,"text":"這個剛剛這個春辰兄我們陳志備的那剛剛對於這個限訴法有很多的意義很好有很多的意義就等這個行政院院長這個來這個立法院來跟這個不管是春辰兄或是說國民黨跟民進黨所有的委員講清楚嘛"},{"start":6720.47,"end":6737.972,"text":"這就是附議嘛那提附議的話那行政院一定有他的話想講嘛有他的話想講就在立法院講是最正式的嘛那所以剛剛這個村城兄的這些問題跟質疑沒有關係我相信我們這個卓院長一定會講得很清楚但是講呢一定是在立法院講"},{"start":6738.553,"end":6751.823,"text":"因為他是對立法委員來做負責的不是說這個你們說現在開記者會啦在臉書上面有寫啦就講得很清楚了其實今天主院長他在臉書上面或是記者會講的他就是講很遺憾啊他是很遺憾啊他連最基本的說明的機會都被剝奪了而且是絕非遺憾兩個字可以形容比遺憾更遺憾啊那所以院長真的"},{"start":6763.612,"end":6783.506,"text":"這個您是立法院院長那邀請行政院院長來這個立法院做這個復議案說明我認為這個是行政院長的這個義務不是只有權力而已那剛才這個國民黨委員有講啊這個明天是院會啊這個要審法案啊那所以呢這個那最好復議案的時候一起講"},{"start":6784.346,"end":6805.138,"text":"如果說明天這個院會一起處理復議案的話那才是真正是在阻擋法案的進行因為院會本來就是有什麼法案我們就來審查但是這個行政院院長要來立法院做這個復議案的說明那是要開這個立法院的這個全院的委員會"},{"start":6806.533,"end":6828.702,"text":"那你要開全委員會我們就是另外再訂個時間也不會影響到這個院會的進行嘛所以說如果說明天就要排這個院會然後就把這個附議案把它排進去然後馬上就要表決這才是占用時間啊所以院長按照慣例行政院院長來這個立法院就附議案的說明過去都是全院的委員會來做說明"},{"start":6830.603,"end":6848.564,"text":"所以应该是说在下个礼拜排个时间来做这个全院的委员会请行政院院长来做复议案的说明这才是正办而且现在我看除了这个司法委员会现在还在审预算之外其实很多的委员会预算都已经审完了"},{"start":6849.085,"end":6868.562,"text":"那其實是有時間來開這個不論是這一個全院的委員會來處理這個復議案或是說剛剛國民黨的這個委員有講那現在總預算很重要那沒關係啊我們也可以加開院會再來講總預算的事情因為這一根究底啊是誰在擋這個總預算是國民黨在擋總預算啊"},{"start":6871.705,"end":6892.094,"text":"擋了六次耶 這程序委員會就把他擋掉了耶行政院是在八月底的時候就把總預算送到我們立法院來了但是我們立法院是哪時候才開 才開始把總預算附委是在十一月五號耶 十一月八號耶十一月八號才把這個整個總預算來附委所以是誰在擋總預算 是國民黨在擋總預算啊"},{"start":6894.895,"end":6910.567,"text":"擋了兩個多月11月8號才讓整個總運算來覆尾才交付審查那現在國民黨就說哎呀總運算很重要總運算當然重要所以呢這個我們都可以加開用會來處理但是不要忘了當初為什麼總運算省那麼久"},{"start":6911.528,"end":6928.545,"text":"因為國民黨在11月8號才把總預算整個再復違那另外呢其實我們今天的這個朝野協商本來也有提到協商的部分呢除了這個限數法之外我們還有這一個114年度中央政府的總預算"},{"start":6929.793,"end":6946.698,"text":"還有這個前瞻預算這些特別預算追加預算等等本來也想說今天朝野協商的時候請院長來做處理但是今天沒有今天就只有談這個限訴法好啦那現在還有就是說國民黨最常用的理由就是說啊這限訴法關行政幹什麼事情"},{"start":6947.618,"end":6974.804,"text":"當然關行政院的事情嘛這個剛剛大家講很清楚了99以上的這個案子都是人民的釋憲案那按照這個司法院所提供的資料現在還有400多件啊還在這個司法院裡面等待這個憲法法庭來做這個審理那如果按照這個國民黨邏輯憲訴法司法院關行政院什麼事情為什麼要行政院院長來做這個復案說明"},{"start":6976.664,"end":6994.715,"text":"那為什麼立法院職權行使法這個擴權法案通過之後那行政院有沒有提復議有啊那行政院院長有沒有來做說明也有啊那為什麼那時候國民黨就沒有說啊這是立法院職權行使法關行政院什麼事情沒有嘛還是來做說明因為跟行政院也有相關嘛"},{"start":6995.535,"end":7013.374,"text":"限訴法也是一樣啊也是跟行政院有相關代表這麼多的人民來做這個限訴法的復驗的說明相當的合理嘛所以說當初是誰把手伸進到這個司法院不是行政院是立法院立法院你把手伸進去了限訴法"},{"start":7014.435,"end":7033,"text":"憲法訴訟法就好像是這個憲法法庭的這個職權行使法就好像是我們自己的立法院職權行使法如果按照憲法第四條規定要怎麼審理人數都是由大法官自己來決定的不是你立法院定了一個法把手伸進去司法院來決定他要怎麼開會幾個人可以開會幾個人可以評審可以評理"},{"start":7036.361,"end":7061.758,"text":"這完全是立法權深進到司法權裡面了嘛所以今天行政院來做這個復議案的報告絕對不是說行政院把手伸到了司法院不是是立法院是國民黨通過了限訴法先把手伸進去了伸進到司法院裡面去了行政院才被迫必須來做復議案的說明跟報告我把這個話要把它講清楚我看這個院長已經點頭微笑了"},{"start":7065.066,"end":7091.05,"text":"好 那我們現在先說到這邊 謝謝任長謝謝李昆城委員的發言各位黨黨幹部我特別報告剛剛民進黨團兩次提出所有所提出來要求朝野協商的議案包括國民黨團 台灣民眾黨團就大家意見提出來我們都會鬧朝野協商所以下星期我們會繼續朝野協商這一點跟各位報告請大家務必不要存有疑心不是閃躲 是因為限訴法明天就要審查了所以今天才特別排這個案我們沒有"},{"start":7091.63,"end":7119.538,"text":"包括我本人立法院長、副院長的改選案,我們都會面對問題不會閃躲,這一點要特別報告明天是一個很重要的...我知道第二個就是各黨團都做發言有的黨團希望行政院長來報告有的黨團希望明天就處理我們這個憲法第2次協商上一次也已經做出我們一切一規定處理可是呢,民進黨團又提出來我們也覺得很重視所以今天又再一次下午又來協商所以這樣的話,我想我們就"},{"start":7120.854,"end":7135.216,"text":"一切還是一樣,我們就依照規定好不好,明天沒有辦法達成共識嘛這要朝野寫上來決定啊那要不然我們就休息五分鐘讓他來寫上來好不好,休息一下"},{"start":7145.779,"end":7174.683,"text":"會不會過到總預算 總預算接下來是協商啊那協商跟台那個全院委員會又不衝突還有副院長這一組織啊好 那我不是 你們要不要私底下處和漢典都不夠風向你院長要來跟他們說OK SHORT PASS 等一下誰要我講完一定有錢齁 好不好你們要不要來"},{"start":7187.305,"end":7196.072,"text":"不要緊張,我一定有解方市長明天來,下禮拜就處理,一樣是可以表決的到啊我們的行政院長來,下禮拜就可以處理了啊"},{"start":7205.719,"end":7233.408,"text":"然後你喊總預算 總預算接下來是協商協商院長主持 看一邊副院長一邊院長就好了對啊 又不衝突對啊 跟總預算沒有關係不會壓線才處理啦紅圍委員 我很期待你可以氣質的在詢問行政院長大家不要緊張 我一定有解方而且讓大家非常愉快"},{"start":7254.32,"end":7271.533,"text":"氣質美女不要走啊 紅衛氣質美女不要走我很怕氣質走了我們氣質要留住 我很怕氣質走了來來來 氣質要留下來 氣質一定要留下來"},{"start":7273.103,"end":7300.089,"text":"不要讓氣質落跑了事實上他跟總預算的程序一點都沒有關係因為總預算接下來就是總預算接下來就是協商嘛他跟兩件事是分開的我是覺得說你們下禮拜一定有時間可以處理16號之前啊"},{"start":7301.448,"end":7323.106,"text":"阿所以你們下禮拜有充裕的時間如果明天我們明天就可以把尋答結束了阿明天才10號阿我們明天就可以讓他尋答結束阿奇怪阿就大家按照程序這樣不是很好嗎"},{"start":7331.32,"end":7340.526,"text":"總預算委員會處理完院長召集協商協商程序又不影響其他的程序加開一次 全院委員會不會再要到院會的時間"},{"start":7360.814,"end":7366.399,"text":"有没有逆转?"},{"start":7404.497,"end":7420.263,"text":"這裏有一個很重要的地方,就是這裏。"},{"start":7434.019,"end":7461.544,"text":"謝謝觀賞"},{"start":7463.373,"end":7477.862,"text":"我一定要上來講話?你講,一定要你講,重點是你先把時間解放告訴我我用查理常定下來就好了12日時間定下來,念過去了比如你怕16號,14號已經完成了,請查理常拿念過去"},{"start":7492.202,"end":7496.327,"text":"那我們怎麼組旗號 這樣都可以談了啊你明天走得過去我從不走你走不過去的那個好"},{"start":7512.345,"end":7522.112,"text":"這個倒著去講話"},{"start":7547.103,"end":7547.123,"text":"謝謝觀看"},{"start":7563.083,"end":7582.331,"text":"現在剛好是半天了啊我們沒有啊我們同樣是一個什麼環境"},{"start":7588.643,"end":7614.445,"text":"對,對"},{"start":7618.88,"end":7619.2,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":7661.311,"end":7676.003,"text":"有嗎?有嗎?"},{"start":7692.312,"end":7696.734,"text":"就有任何"},{"start":7713.012,"end":7733.268,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":7741.598,"end":7746.14,"text":"你都不公說話 上去又沒有解駁一點輿論空間都沒有你們先溝通 讓他不夠"},{"start":7773.784,"end":7782.651,"text":"講完就"},{"start":7784.471,"end":7805.976,"text":"不是他跟高雄一點關係都沒有不是他還沒有說完是我想的是我想的你剛剛說我告訴你王文威跟他一點關係都沒有他下半輪他有下半輪"},{"start":7821.864,"end":7838.053,"text":"你要不要去念召一大堂?我們想之後把他去念召一大堂為什麼要去念召一大堂呢?我們想去念召夢眠夢想去念召夢眠夢想去念召夢眠夢想去念召夢眠夢想去念召夢眠夢想去念召夢眠夢想去念召夢眠夢"},{"start":7845.397,"end":7861.766,"text":"院長,我希望你承諾諾言好不好對啊,我希望你承諾諾言我講一句話大家都聽得懂,但是我會把道理講清楚不必溝通,我講話絕對算數,好不好"},{"start":7870.464,"end":7897.663,"text":"來,那個啊,蔡英雅蔡英雅沒關係啦,我講得大家清楚啦你給我講完我到現在為止,我不想要服辱你賣什麼藥對啊,也應該你要講得很明確喔人家要很明確我在合氣的搭這個橋兩邊,走路走不下去沒有把那個橋挖斷我是把橋搭起來,好不好,大家請坐好"},{"start":7898.339,"end":7920.751,"text":"好,現在我們繼續開會,那柯建民總召請求發言,我們請柯總召那門關起來好不好?等一下總席是我發言,這個一定要感謝一下"},{"start":7931.431,"end":7932.372,"text":"來,院長、各位委員同仁,我等一下,"},{"start":7937.25,"end":7959.703,"text":"我跟各位保證,請大家注意聽,保證我講的方式,大家聽了洪威所講的就是說我到底賣什麼葫蘆,我是要把事情解決,而且很圓滿,就如此而已那請大家,希望我把整個論述講完"},{"start":7961.328,"end":7966.59,"text":"對於各位所提的問題我一一回答不是博士我一一回答這才是正辦這是溝通第一個針對吳征程委員"},{"start":7974.875,"end":8001.483,"text":"第一句話你所講的那大海灣會議沒有什麼公信力你講的那就是說你沒有沉默上不了解第二個你說大海灣會議以後是十比九十比九為什麼憲法訴訟法用十比九"},{"start":8002.823,"end":8023.967,"text":"國民黨要把通殺變成八個而已這一定有道理那現在我們也知道新法訴訟法從什麼時候開始呢因為當年是大法官審理案件法民國93年我進來的時候到了民國108年1月1號通過然後延三年反通期所以111年1月1號"},{"start":8031.755,"end":8056.657,"text":"因為要司法節才開始那麼很公私的後退式司法節111上街頭要1月上街頭這法案司法公認罪這很公私的柯文哲現在有問題你要有耐心好不好"},{"start":8060.006,"end":8086.543,"text":"我這個法學教育啦,大家搶個空來吳征仁,吳征仁當然好朋友嘛,交換一下意見司法協商協討,實質上這樣的行為司法一時當然當年從大審法改到限訴法的時候是108年1月1號,有三年法律公職,所以1111是這樣的意思"},{"start":8090.205,"end":8115.092,"text":"但是一一一不是定國機也不是打錢架人家要了解這個所以你們的邏輯完全錯亂那黃國昌天天在演笑話給大家聽我在臉書上寫過一句話就是說請大家不要再討論柯文哲事件了那是一個民主國家諷刺"},{"start":8116.291,"end":8136.342,"text":"反正柯P再怎麼樣,天天在演消化也不是天天在追逐他的消化沒有漏氣媒體上不知道應該再談了,因為他沒有翻身的餘地啦沒有翻身的餘地好官,簡單話很有技巧的求情28.5年其實28.5年等於30年啦柯P未來再判"},{"start":8142.887,"end":8168.803,"text":"三個28.5或三個無期徒刑合併執行還是28.5年但是你沒有繳還犯罪所得的話是關滿期的所以這個官司是非常嚴峻的然後每天在電視上包括提訊的時候亂講話前言不得後語我認為這個案子已經很清楚了"},{"start":8169.884,"end":8189.546,"text":"所以大家要來思考什麼在一個民主化這麼充足的台灣民主化走了三十年那為什麼台灣會發生這種事情也就是柯文哲用他的騙術可以騙得這麼久那台灣社會應該反思這個事情反思為什麼要反思這個事情就是民粹嘛"},{"start":8191.792,"end":8218.283,"text":"他跟柯文哲結一起嘛要弄顏聖文嘛顏聖文因為他是前櫃後裔嘛所以他有他原罪 大家滿意大家滿意就一直排山倒海 造成柯文哲當選他不是說要推倒藍衣人技巧嗎但是他今天把自己推倒了"},{"start":8219.758,"end":8246.315,"text":"所以這個東西很弔詭所以我呼籲大家應該來檢視這個事情為什麼台灣會發生這種事情這比較重要我希望大家把眼球轉到另外一個方向來反正我們今天講的限塑法講到我們現在台灣民主是不是會被摧毀台灣未來是不是會被中共佔領台灣未來還有未來嗎"},{"start":8247.799,"end":8269.585,"text":"所以所有民間大家都很擔心,這國家醫療又有國家嗎?我們還有2028的選舉嗎?這台灣聽說在考慮這個問題,所以這個比較重要至於吳征平所講的,因為限數法,我不知道大家有沒有了解限數法我還要再強調一次"},{"start":8271.513,"end":8295.755,"text":"不管任何政治人物乃至於政務官都要基本的公法及憲法上嘗試這樣才整個國家想往前進否則的話完全沒有公法及憲法上嘗試這國家非常危險所以我對憲法上坦白講我對憲法花了很多時間研究那時候分歧就講說"},{"start":8297.876,"end":8322.847,"text":"說叫我大好官其實不是因為我對這個非常在意就是說新的體制要靠大家遵守憲法來維持的那今天講的就是說歐小英提出所謂的憲訴法看起來沒有什麼問題但是有一個很大機關他就是要十個九個嘛十個九個"},{"start":8324.619,"end":8343.959,"text":"要開會的時候至少十個,平的時候要九個,那奇怪,開會十個人,微信審查只要九個人,那一個人沒有來的話,一個人我覺得全部嘛,三八個就全部,說他訂了訂了,他根本訂一個八個就可以,他現在通過你把"},{"start":8345.522,"end":8373.409,"text":"我們同意前前通殺15生的8個8個根本沒有辦法滿足10個9個嘛那黃國昌也是一樣嘛他知道柯國昌容我提醒你剛剛講那個solution解決我回頭拜託我幫黃國昌講清楚大家都很清楚就是說我這邏輯理論是哪一來的好不好院長對不起喔今天可能反正現在3年多而已現在3年多了至少"},{"start":8374.713,"end":8399.168,"text":"那法定人還可以開到五點半嘛,不是可以開這麼久啦,等一下我講完就結束啦,好不好我要把一月一月拆開,好不好?院長,你今天央聽還不錯啊?沒有,央聽還不錯但是你沒白的啦,好不好?我現在沒有在講我看到你常常很注意在聽,但是要吸收進去,好不好?不要一直叫我說不要講了我看你眼睛就不大對"},{"start":8402.8,"end":8426.697,"text":"關其某之人因所在所以我今天要講的就是說歐小英提的案子坦白講我不知道我當然知道她憂鬱然後她提的要十個九個嘛那十個九個當然是定額我們講很清楚定額沒有錯但是她把大法官三分之四只剩下八個那你沒有辦法釋憲嘛"},{"start":8428.54,"end":8435.064,"text":"這個作用在什麼?吳俊仁跟委員剛剛有講到,你賴總統應該再補,當然賴總統應該補,那賴總統補的時候,假如賴總統所補的你就砍掉的時候,當然最後會面臨到義務問題嘛,義務就是人家說你是要怎麼解?"},{"start":8449.793,"end":8469.683,"text":"你是會談到所謂政黨比喻的名額嘛他們的戰略是在這裡要有人進去大法官要有人來進大法官但是呢 胡文綺也曾經講過大法官應該照政黨比喻來我說什麼時候大法官照政黨比喻來你馬英九有沒有照政黨比喻來大法官從來以前到現在都是用審見委員會來審見"},{"start":8472.133,"end":8495.227,"text":"各方推薦然後審議委員通過總統看過總統當然有最後的權力的調整這是我們整個大法官人事審查就是如此包括這次賴總統所提的院長、副院長乃至於大法官我們就弄憲法上他的權力這是他權力所以他提誰我們都不知道"},{"start":8496.147,"end":8497.771,"text":"但是審查是在國會,國會是自主"},{"start":8507.044,"end":8526.384,"text":"劉教授有意見,那黨團是要一致解的所以我們是什麼?七個裡面有六個贊成,一個很對如果我們老是通殺,完全不一樣的味道所以你現在講說我們和我們黨一起聯合對抗那種完全錯誤"},{"start":8527.865,"end":8546.998,"text":"我們是六個同意,一個不同意,一定要一次解嘛你們是七個同意不同意,所以在這裡亦以序名,請不要進行查證,完全毫無道理所以對於吳征文委員,吳征文委員講的就是這個道理他們後面戰略目的,其他價值在什麼,這樣當然我很清楚嘛這黃鑾昌和胡文綺"},{"start":8549.68,"end":8567.388,"text":"去設計,後面還有孫永青一大堆TALK的人,乃至於北京都有可能所以我最近可能會寫一篇文章,來談陳昌文、孫永青等人,包括李建柱等人"},{"start":8567.768,"end":8592.376,"text":"柯總早,時間我現在不可以講,你繼續走沒事,那我們要走囉你走沒有關係,我這還是錄音啊我是要留下紀錄的我一個一個講,大家才會清楚嘛好,來,董事長,我來歐盟會要走以前,我一一給你駁斥"},{"start":8595.77,"end":8615.002,"text":"我們在總預算很重要當然很重要一定能如期完成但是今天吳少偉乃是我們所有委員講的今天在樓上還在審查法務部預算是吳宗憲是國民黨策略性的在卡雖然很清楚"},{"start":8617.52,"end":8620.202,"text":"所以很清楚就是說因為海岸長島就跟我講過"},{"start":8637.398,"end":8656.687,"text":"假如他十天要到美國的時候,我們都可以加開宴會到晚上十二點第二個我們可以加開宴會,所以完全不影響總預算總預算困難點在什麼地方?困難點就是說,他可能可以要這個禮拜五"},{"start":8660.678,"end":8677.127,"text":"他們報上來,完畢以後馬上報上來,因為會交互相依才可以開始協商,才可以叫各黨提出新的意見,提出新的案子。通常這樣的時候大概有七八千案。"},{"start":8678.988,"end":8707.229,"text":"然後再叫行政部門去一一溝通一溝通以後當然有時候就改為什麼改為組結議或改為輸入報告就可以這是整個過程最後回來報告王院長蘇前院長以及游賢院長在最後寫上說車案運得很快所以這樣才能夠完成但是這裡面有一點重點就是說"},{"start":8709.191,"end":8723.803,"text":"一定要曹海祥簽下來,某年某月一定要完成而且要談三檢總署多少三檢總署出來以後就迎刃而解,如包賓檢有,這是總運算的問題所以我要在這裡告訴王國樂委員他所談的,院長,你曾經在山上"},{"start":8738.325,"end":8764.973,"text":"不可能去菩薩的廟裡面坐禪十幾年你應該很有修養我今天早上來的時候我還先練觀世音菩薩普門經好不好大家都要修養那你相當有修養的人嘛那聽了這些話也被你的修養上面不會有破壞一定有加成作用好不好"},{"start":8766.653,"end":8794.995,"text":"那接著要談,接下來要談就是說王偉文企業差異那他講了一句話,包含林世民剛才講了一句話說我在在院長室的時候有時候談到其實院長來不來這可以討論但是呢,這是我的想法那院長堅持要來當然我們必須尊重而且這是現任城市的問題我為什麼要這樣講呢剛才剛才那個蔡宜宜有談到有關於"},{"start":8797.315,"end":8820.183,"text":"2013年5月31號快去我修正因為公教人員叫,找打一個叫那個案子是我自己在現場的,所以我最清楚那個案子的原因就是說曾經有一個庫裔,庫裔叫做黃世民天天要把人抓去關"},{"start":8822.143,"end":8832.192,"text":"要有關於大學教授、院長以及教授、助教等等他們的協助去申請協助的違反計畫但是呢"},{"start":8838.618,"end":8864.208,"text":"用假的錢用到以上邊去那其實這只是偽造文書而已他用南部智慧條例要把所有大學教授全國大學教授抓去關以南部智慧條例抓去關這何等大事啊所以我當時在我辦公室裡面常常有人來哭訴甚至坦白講一位大學教授翹樓自殺因為南部智慧條例是七年以上的"},{"start":8865.805,"end":8872.475,"text":"其實這個就是這樣的由來所以當初後來2013年5月31號的時候因為還連任黎世嘉找王院長那時候有親民黨還有我們"},{"start":8881.314,"end":8899.151,"text":"那台南林士嘉是一屆聯盟的秘書長台大院長楊半職教授他身上掛著所有的委辦計畫四億多科技多了柯恩哲只有十萬而已所以這個律師工業上必須解套"},{"start":8900.427,"end":8919.438,"text":"所以大家談好了我們也開過黨黨會議說這一定要解套國民黨也開黨黨會議說要解套李公子還跟我講說我說這個一定要委員會然後在院會經過正常程序不可以朝一朝這樣簽就算了所以大家走正常程序委員會的時候沒有人有意見沒有意見於是到院會的時候當然大家要簽名那時候我們委員長主持"},{"start":8929.246,"end":8949.602,"text":"台聯簽 簽我們兩人簽了 新黨簽了我和當初的幹事長是誰 潘文安書記長是邱怡銀我們最後才去簽在簽以前我們開過黨的會議告知每一個黨員的成員但是這裡面有一個就是說要為民進代表一起解套"},{"start":8950.68,"end":8975.837,"text":"因為國立計畫會,因為特別會都已經出罪法了那這個也已經出罪法,就是歷史公約所以民運代表的時候的助理費用也應該解套當初就是這樣子走下來所以通過以後柯文哲的案子也解套了因為他教授1450,他有10萬塊"},{"start":8978.442,"end":9005.865,"text":"大家知道通過以後第一個打電話給誰是打給柯文哲我說這個沒問題了那當然有很多民進代表也要解套當然解套就沒有今天的高安事件很多助理會的事情但是今天再也沒有辦法回溯了再修改也沒有辦法收集計畫所以今天要談的就是說有些歷史過程是這樣過來了"},{"start":9008.064,"end":9023.85,"text":"我們新竹也有因為這樣,這樣本來以為可以解套那被起訴120年,後來也抓去關當然合命之心,合命之心以後當然不到10年內,後來關了也出來了所以這個歷史過程是這樣的"},{"start":9025.307,"end":9052.722,"text":"那為什麼要談這個東西呢?用所謂的會計法因為我是在現場的人王崇士明那時候因為大家學長以後簽名然後叫行政拿回去再重新打一個案子回來因為行政的案子是供教漏打的大家以為行政送來一定不穩的就簽下去然後就王崇士明搞過了把教略漏掉"},{"start":9053.763,"end":9079.698,"text":"所以馬英九大家請我法人嘛請我法人剛才我那時候還講說中國市會原金標寫這套我錯了就是原金標已經抓去關了所以我們敢出於民意代表的事情所以請我法人的時候馬英九我把它停下來要提復議案復議案的時候當然少一個字而已再加回去這都沒問題所以剛才"},{"start":9083.146,"end":9094.681,"text":"蔡議員所提的就是如此其他所有的復議案全部行政長要來那為什麼行政長應該來呢我們要了解我們另外通過法案"},{"start":9096.004,"end":9121.25,"text":"要走富裕的行政要走因為法案預算自然難行的時候當然他要提復原然後來立法院說明說明要表決然後復原一定不會夠那他就必須付出然後對比付出然後送給總統去公告所以一定走這個法律程序的民進黨不可能不付出或是做違憲動作"},{"start":9123.103,"end":9138.437,"text":"報告我們都是謹守憲法的今天我要談的就是這個事情所以忽然沒有過行政長必須復組當然復組的時間當然他可以這個就是內閣制的精神內閣制的精神是什麼呢"},{"start":9140.72,"end":9167.327,"text":"假如說另外三名通過法案假如行政院認為認為說還有其他配套法案要重新要一起通過的話在下一次宴會的時候通過一期才送來這是可以的所以呢行政院長他可以當然可以可以賣可以他有有一定要一定要付出那今天不是說所謂的專案委員所談的"},{"start":9168.632,"end":9180.454,"text":"因為朝偉就可以不送出來所以這個差很多,意思差很多今天要談的這個先人理論另外一個呢,並不是所有事件都要走副業案子"},{"start":9181.576,"end":9200.242,"text":"事實上很多事件都沒有走負擬案子但是上次因為國會改革的時候上次當然總統的行政院以及立法院同時都是暫時出院以及釋憲其實很多法案都可以立法院直接聽"},{"start":9202.143,"end":9210.09,"text":"立法院行政院都可以直接提法提暫時處分以及釋憲這樣就沒有這個程序了所以兩條路是不一樣的我只要這樣說明你懂嗎"},{"start":9218.237,"end":9238.338,"text":"他們已經聽我講好幾次了我們都有親人教育然後呢這是什麼我們國大先生提示是什麼提示是混合制而且有總統制以及內閣制的精神所以總統制是什麼總統是負責國家安全其他就是內閣制所以內閣制上面"},{"start":9239.605,"end":9263.707,"text":"我們知道憲法五十二條行政院是國家最高行政機關當然他負責整個國家政策的最高他必須負責所以這內閣制的精神所以給行政院院長有如美國的總統一樣美國總統是他特別設計什麼川普對於國會送來法案他會為法案退回"},{"start":9265.305,"end":9281.957,"text":"所以內閣是用這樣的精神,他是行政院長,這件法案假如對國內有傷害,他可以不服輸我們今天看,你們連這個招委就可以不送"},{"start":9283.174,"end":9308.75,"text":"不送出來院長在新人體制上立法會所設計的當然他必須一定要附屬啦但是他附屬的時候要什麼時候附屬他一定會在適當時間一定會附屬所以各位放心不會違憲的今天我要講這個道理那今天其他以外我們要談的就是說關於林思明"},{"start":9310.191,"end":9329.817,"text":"因為所談的話,坦白講喔,你是寫法的人,要國立黨,但是金牌寫良情則無惡氣,你跑國民黨去的時候,你必須去國民黨亂講話,這樣你的律師資料會,人家不敢找你當律師。"},{"start":9335.422,"end":9339.095,"text":"人家到民進黨來,民進黨的好處就是,總而言之好笑"},{"start":9342.441,"end":9369.755,"text":"怎麼還沒說好小孩,包括那天的小牛也是一樣人模人樣的,留英國牛喜廷留英的,也是林鄭月娥說事那國民黨在害他,當他來講,警察在那邊挑釁所以他造狗練得很快,他因為一直在做排血,就是害死民族幼苗"},{"start":9370.922,"end":9394.761,"text":"所以國民黨整個黨要重新在思維上重新思考這個黨已經一百多年能夠有支持到現在還活著我都覺得是奇蹟但是各位不要擔心很快會走入歷史馬路化成一股青煙消失掉在這樣的情形底下"},{"start":9396.087,"end":9414.347,"text":"那今天我不是用這個機會在揶揄國民黨,我講的是實情,良藥苦口,你是好人啊所以包括吳征宅也是一樣,但是他聽得懂我講的話,而且他是值得respect的人"},{"start":9415.305,"end":9438.561,"text":"因為她講她說她的壯士在她來找我我說我一半時間在床上臥病但是我能夠下床的時候我已經找你她來跟我談我能仔細聽她講得很好而且她是個合理性會說話這個法案應該怎麼修我們比較能夠完善而且可以亂所以她跟大家一起照相嘛"},{"start":9439.501,"end":9462.836,"text":"這就是立法院一個國會的政治生態但吳征峰委員比較可惜,他過去媒體人,政治他不是很熟悉包括立法院的遊戲規則,乃至於法案內容,包括資源刑罰等等,包括憲政問題,包括公安問題他是說來立法院每天像什麼?你說來立法院每天像這樣講?"},{"start":9468.137,"end":9493.147,"text":"沒有,你說藍營有藍營,今天好像暴風雨啊那也是你可以在暴風雨找到一個鄰近你有藍營不是暴風雨,你有藍營裡面都是牛尾蛇腎但是哪一個講真話,你應該要看對面那一組就知道了對面這一組吳慈儀、蔡依儀、呂崑禎你看這個好像都尊嚴啊好像尊嚴"},{"start":9497.004,"end":9510.839,"text":"不會像郭文綺那樣親面咬牙然後然後呢今天我解密到最後要講同一句話這些話我都跟郭文綺講過我們今天所有事情都要解決"},{"start":9512.222,"end":9529.77,"text":"甚至簽一下草野協商你怕1月16號太急我們請1月14號給你草野協商 院長來簽讀我早上三點讀取怎麼讀取我教大家不是解一個就讀取那周環環理事長和那個醫術組長就知道這不太簡單就有了那大家要拼"},{"start":9532.546,"end":9551.475,"text":"協商到晚上12點也在協商,應該要趕進度嘛這個東西是一個技術性問題只要不懂的話,我們衛明很清楚,台東我給他看起來他是負責預算的,我們的預算中心主任所以這個很專業的"},{"start":9553.596,"end":9569.355,"text":"所以大家要有誠意,把這個問題解決我有跟副理講說,第一個哪一天要休會,你講就算數,16號就16號,把所有都完成包括閒罵、加一我提前表決就好,加二也可以"},{"start":9571.497,"end":9597.886,"text":"副議案哪一天我寫清楚14號也可以總運算要怎麼完成包括前瞻包括台電專案運算但是有一點我們之間有差異所以他不敢來面對我他說他有危機問一下我說我只有要求一點潛艦運算一定要讓他過不可以讓他干擾"},{"start":9601.077,"end":9622.626,"text":"這個東西假如你們沒有答應我很難面對我們黨主席變成總統所以假如這個沒有答應的話有可能破局只是這個問題而已他說他在這溝通他在溝通的時候我打電話給他他說藏起來氣泡檢討氣泡檢討很奇怪所以大家這個想一想"},{"start":9623.986,"end":9647.639,"text":"潛艦這個東西很重要保護國家只要國民黨把潛艦弄不見的話各位民意的反應會多大所以希望國民黨在這一地方能夠突破什麼時候就迎刃而解國會長長的話是一個非常誠懇我們都可以親下來16號就16號都如期完成"},{"start":9651.789,"end":9680.094,"text":"副議案前十四法沒有關係蔡偉昌唸過還可以不遵守法,不可能的事情嘛總預算如期完成總預算要加長審查那前瞻那個都要...院長我知道你很關心總預算跟這家預算所以你每次都要提出來但我今天就是說這個有裡面的一個名義告別那個很環雜所以可能那時候蘇家前院長常常做到晚上十二點"},{"start":9680.954,"end":9708.231,"text":"上個月起我們也是 主要這個地方七月十二 主要晚上十二點所以這些東西 都沒有問題包括拉法 選辦法 加一加二都沒有問題反正都要釋憲的 我們不會打架嘛我們從此以後 立法院都不打架我們重新來建立 重塑一個新的文化讓韓院長最遠變成民主的英雄"},{"start":9709.434,"end":9735.937,"text":"好不好讓海南黨得到應該得到的尊重Respect這是我一直在想朝野和解這是很重要好不好所以以上只是那一點大家可以想一想好謝謝柯總召等一下我再一分鐘已經講了四十一分鐘了我可以講四十四個小時但是我很簡單的講因為我常常"},{"start":9737.038,"end":9748.925,"text":"跟我們的團隊都很清楚這也是他們的挑戰所以所以我講的話我也不必代表我就這麼講清楚就是說大家想一想"},{"start":9750.117,"end":9767.888,"text":"保齡檢測才能夠迎刃而解這個東西米港處理好我們明天大家簽一簽那我們請韓院長李育謙副院長長他很尊重你的你也跟你們的黨主席朱主席講一下"},{"start":9769.049,"end":9798.082,"text":"這是對大家好啊假如破局的話我不知道國民黨能不能承擔這種這種把國家 國會國家都不要了連前任都不要了我相信國民黨很難承擔好 以上是終於希望你們不用膩了謝謝柯總召謝謝各位 謝謝謝謝您42分鐘只有我最專心聽你的真的 我憑良心講我眼睛都看著你的"},{"start":9800.456,"end":9822.491,"text":"謝謝大家,我本來想上次蔡議員書記長講的話我也很感慨希望蔡議員協商大家把自己意見表達完畢,黨團立場顧到以後黨團的理想性大家能達成共識,不要各說各話其實這個話就是我內心所想,總是希望我們花了這麼多時間今天馬上承認這麼多責任,總是希望能夠往好的方向發展"},{"start":9824.076,"end":9851.936,"text":"那很抱歉連續兩次協商到截至目前還是沒有辦法達成三檔的共識其實我是有點遺憾因為剛才一度曙光已經露出來了那本案沒有獲得共識我們就提送院會依議事規定來處理我們現在散會哪裡沒有共識啊 院長14號刑事復議案的投票在憲法的期限裡面還有時間啊 明天早上再來談"},{"start":9855.546,"end":9862.27,"text":"院長你根本就是有聽沒有進去耶"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-09T14:07:15.398000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:07:20.602000+08:00","text":"謝謝，各黨團的幹部都已經到了，我們現在就開始進行……敬禮。不敢！","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-09T14:07:48.866000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:07:49.486000+08:00","text":"院長未遂變院長殺手了，來，坐、坐。","quality":0.538},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:08:15.789000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:08:18.450000+08:00","text":"我是院長未遂沒有錯，我是臨危總召。","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:08:20.030000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:08:21.911000+08:00","text":"院長、各位委員同仁。","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:08:22.931000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:08:31.073000+08:00","text":"今天好不容易，因為近半年來腳受傷，第一次站在質詢臺上面質詢。","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:08:32.713000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:08:39.559000+08:00","text":"本席在這裡主要談幾個問題，最主要談程序問題，我為什麼要談程序問題？","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:08:40.901000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:08:44.207000+08:00","text":"沒有程序正義就沒\n有實質正義，這個是絕對的。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:08:46.211000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:09:12.034000+08:00","text":"就在這個會議室，選罷法加 1 的案子在這個會議室舉行，在會議\n室舉行的時候，國民黨把外面的門關起來，然後在這裡開會，沒有民進黨參加，雖然程序上好\n像合法，程序上看起來合法，但實質上是非法，為什麼？","quality":0.831},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:09:13.100000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:09:20.465000+08:00","text":"因為沒有讓民進黨進來參加，而且你\n們用強制的手段讓我們不能進來。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:09:20.465000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:09:26.590000+08:00","text":"用強制的手段讓我們不能進來，然後就送出委員會。","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:09:26.970000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:09:40.059000+08:00","text":"那時候\n就出委員會，出委員會以後，當然後來發言的時候也說我們有意見，他說有意見你再來協商，\n而這陣子協商的時候大家鬧得不歡而散。","quality":0.719},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:09:43.269000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:10:13.720000+08:00","text":"同時我們在跟你抗議以前也行文給你說這個有問題，也行文給議事處，也給內政委員會，由\n吳思瑤等 5、6 個，親自送到內政委員會給內政委員會的召委說這個程序有問題，假設這個程序\n可以的話，那以後院會你就關起來不讓民進黨進來就好了，法案就三讀通過嘛！","quality":0.708},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:10:14.900000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:10:23.282000+08:00","text":"就好像棒球比\n賽，第 2 名的把第 1 名綁架，比賽他就第 1 名了，院長，這個可以嗎？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:10:23.282000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:10:25.342000+08:00","text":"在全世界，這絕對說不\n通的！","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:10:26.142000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:10:26.242000+08:00","text":"絕對說不通！","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:10:27.423000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:10:34.562000+08:00","text":"傅崐萁，你不要講話，你可以用表情表示憤怒，但是不要講話，好不好？","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:10:34.782000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:10:42.064000+08:00","text":"這個如果說得通，立法院就可以關門了，這是第一點。","quality":0.619},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:10:42.064000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:11:02.026000+08:00","text":"所以我向你抗議，我連續行了很多文\n給你，向你抗議，就是說這個有問題，你說沒有關係：柯總召，你就行文來，我們就把你排在\n……就是在朝野協商的時候，未來朝野協商排在第一案，讓你講。","quality":0.689},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:11:02.026000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:11:04.588000+08:00","text":"你說你絕對接受，結果呢？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:11:05.248000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:11:05.488000+08:00","text":"沒有排。","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:11:06.770000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:11:17.659000+08:00","text":"沒有排，這件事情幾乎就不見了，那時候是他覺得審查報告已經出去就算了，算了就\n算了，沒關係。","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:11:17.659000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:11:35.040000+08:00","text":"然後 1 月 2 日、1 月 3 日、1 月 4 日我們一直行文給你，包括這個問題，就是有\n關於這種程序不正義的問題，大家好好談一下。","quality":0.795},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:11:36.121000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:11:43.704000+08:00","text":"至少我要詰問，今天周萬來怎麼沒有來？","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:11:43.704000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:11:45.764000+08:00","text":"周秘\n書長坐在那裡。","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:11:45.764000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:11:48.625000+08:00","text":"周秘書長，這個可以嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:11:48.625000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:11:50.766000+08:00","text":"你的書上面寫不可以，結果作為是可以。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:11:51.747000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:11:52.007000+08:00","text":"我要問議事","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:11:52.687000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:11:53.767000+08:00","text":"這樣可以嗎？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:11:53.787000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:12:08.716000+08:00","text":"我還要問這兩個委員會的召委、主秘：這樣可以嗎？","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:12:08.716000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:12:13.239000+08:00","text":"我相信監察\n協 2\n院一定會展開調查的！","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:12:15.421000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:12:17.202000+08:00","text":"違反公務人員相關法令嘛！","quality":0.545},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:12:17.403000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:12:22.206000+08:00","text":"彈劾以後，我看退休金也會不見，而且還會\n有刑責。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:12:22.446000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:12:24.928000+08:00","text":"違反公務人員相關法是很嚴肅的事情！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:12:25.549000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:12:26.610000+08:00","text":"我在這裡言明在先。","quality":1},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:12:29.691000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:12:46.656000+08:00","text":"韓院長好不容易當上院長以後，我們對你有很大的期待，我們希望可以建立一個新的國會，\n在你 2 月 1 日上任的時候，你跑到議場後面去，因為當天會議是我主持嘛！","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:12:48.017000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:12:55.099000+08:00","text":"我們兩個在院長休\n息室聊了很多，我也寫了一篇臉書，我還跟你講說：國瑜兄啊！","quality":0.781},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:12:57.688000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:13:05.650000+08:00","text":"現在大家都要看你漏氣，認為\n你會喝酒胡來，我們要做給人家看，要正經一點。","quality":0.452},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:13:05.790000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:13:09.351000+08:00","text":"這是我的肺腑之言，相信你也聽到了，我也\n寫在臉書上面。","quality":0.696},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:13:09.511000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:13:10.211000+08:00","text":"我到立法院 31 年了，剛才進來的時候，媒體訪問我，說：「你還要罷免韓國瑜嗎？","quality":0.655},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:13:21.083000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:13:21.763000+08:00","text":"」我說：\n「當然罷免啊！","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:13:23.084000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:13:24.284000+08:00","text":"明知不可為也要罷免啊！","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:13:25.604000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:13:25.604000+08:00","text":"不成也要罷免！","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:13:25.964000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:13:31.386000+08:00","text":"」這是代表一個立場問題，這是民主\n進步黨的價值和立場。","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:13:31.766000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:13:35.387000+08:00","text":"臺灣民主能夠往前走，很可貴的是什麼？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:13:35.387000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:13:49.437000+08:00","text":"很可貴的就是 1993 年我到立法\n院以後，到 2016 年，總共 22 年的時間，我在立法院參加所有表決，不管委員會、程序委員會\n，乃至院會，超過 1 萬次，都沒有贏過。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:13:49.517000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:13:52.098000+08:00","text":"現在很多人說：柯總召，你領導的民進黨一點用處都\n沒有，在立法院的表決沒有贏過。","quality":0.794},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:14:06.953000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:14:12.734000+08:00","text":"阿拉伯數字一算就知道，我們 51 席，沒有過半，一定輸的嘛\n！","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:14:13.554000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:14:21.516000+08:00","text":"但是輸的時候要嚴格論述、贏得民心，這是很重要的一個原則。","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:14:21.516000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:14:35.599000+08:00","text":"所以之前有 22 年，我們在立\n法院表決從來沒有贏過，但是我們堅持一個民主的程序，堅持臺灣民主要往前走，少數一定服\n從多數，表決輸就算了，一定服從多數。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:14:40.674000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:15:16.192000+08:00","text":"前幾天的朝野協商包括傅崐萁總召、王鴻薇委員以及\n林思銘委員，還有民眾黨的委員，我們都在，為了建立立法院的文化，我希望不要再有過去那\n種沒有人敢做的事情，把立法院占領起來，然後點名表決，那種衝突、把人丟下來是多危險的\n事情，這個一定要絕跡，永遠不應該再有。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:15:17.373000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:15:44.278000+08:00","text":"過去的院長從劉松藩以降，大家都是用協商的，王院長曾經為一個單一法案協商 22 次，這就\n是刑法的擴大沒收（和食安法有關），也曾經為了一個法案（石油管理法有關油品自由化的問\n題）協商 23 次，我都有在場。","quality":0.61},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:15:44.398000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:15:54.985000+08:00","text":"立法院之所以能夠一直成長，就是大家用協商、用辯論的，不是\n只有表決而已，如果只有表決而已的話，在家裡按表決器就好，小學生都會，其他的都不用了\n！","quality":0.532},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:15:54.985000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:16:26.126000+08:00","text":"所以，從劉松藩院長到王院長，王院長當然是最澈底來踐行的，院長是調和鼎鼐，立法院組\n織法第三條寫得很清楚，院長必須行政中立，不能有黨職，所以韓院長，你不可能是中常委嘛\n！","quality":0.795},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:16:26.966000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:16:29.889000+08:00","text":"但是你可以助選，只要沒有黨職就好了。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:16:30.469000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:16:54.895000+08:00","text":"你不可能兼黨主席，也不可能是中常委，這是院長\n唯一的條件，所以助選是可以的，但是你是國民黨的黨員，當然所有的作為、協商，你會比較\n傾向幫助國民黨，這也無可厚非，但是那個線要踩得很死，不行就不行。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:16:55.755000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:17:20.788000+08:00","text":"所以今天我在這裡講\n，後來包括蘇嘉全院長、包括游錫堃院長，至少會把這個程序走完，有協商結論才有大家簽名\n，就是要幾個人發言，哪幾條條文必須表決、要有幾個人發言，這樣才能夠有效率。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:17:22.372000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:17:29.956000+08:00","text":"至於沒有\n協商結論，當然也要說沒有協商結論，要簽一個，那就照議事程序處理，什麼叫照議事程序處\n理呢？","quality":0.767},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:17:30.596000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:17:52.881000+08:00","text":"就是沒有協商結論，那麼每一個人大體討論都可以發言，每一個人逐條討論都可以發言\n，換言之，我們假如沒有協商結論的話，警察人員人事條例大體討論，民進黨 51 個都可以發言\n，每一個條文，我們 51 個都可以講。","quality":0.869},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:17:52.881000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:18:08.091000+08:00","text":"過去 ECFA 的時候，當初我就是說 ECFA 當然我們表決都\n協 3\n會輸，但是馬英九說可以全案表決，不可以逐條表決，我反對！","quality":0.706},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:18:09.772000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:18:12.353000+08:00","text":"我說既然可以全案表決，為什\n麼不能逐條表決呢？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:18:13.213000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:18:35.322000+08:00","text":"所以我告訴王金平院長以及林益世政策會執行長，我說這個很簡單，一個\n表決各自表述，我們逐條表決，你們全案表決，所以一個表決各自表述，一中都可以各表了，\n為什麼一個表決不能各自表述，這是很重要的道理。","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:18:37.185000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:18:55.751000+08:00","text":"今天我們期待中產生一個新的院長，和我過去 30 年來這個地方的期待發生很大落差，持平而\n論，我是非常感傷的，就是整個國會走到這裡來，何以致之？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:18:56.591000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:18:58.452000+08:00","text":"為什麼兩次重要的表決都會這樣\n？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:19:00.332000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:19:01.993000+08:00","text":"發生打架，再打下去會出人命的。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:19:03.310000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:19:34.958000+08:00","text":"所以我兩個禮拜以內，在議場後面包括跟傅崐萁、包括王\n鴻薇等等所有人講，我們以後都不要打架、我們以後都不要占領主席台，我們可以重塑立法院\n過去的文化，表決輸就算了，該釋憲就釋憲，就是這樣……\n還沒好，這只是引言而已，後面有很多重大題目，我只是覺得今天朝野協商，大家要好好講\n一下。","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:19:35.998000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:19:45.158000+08:00","text":"所以院長，我要跟你講，你在調侃自己，說這可能是你最後一次主持朝野協商。","quality":0.677},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:19:46.960000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:19:55.786000+08:00","text":"我不敢\n這樣講，反正我常常罵你，說你是歷史罪人，你也說歷史罪人來了，我說沒有，你也可以變成\n歷史偉人。","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:19:58.428000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:20:12.974000+08:00","text":"調侃自己這種幽默是一個政治人物很重要、最高超的境界，調侃自己博君一粲，我\n非常了解你的心情，而且你的修養，這一點我是肯定的。","quality":0.855},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:20:13.214000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:20:15.535000+08:00","text":"回來講，我今天講了這麼多，我為什麼敢講這些話呢？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:20:22.042000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:20:26.844000+08:00","text":"因為大家知道，我想周萬來秘書長也\n知道，1999 年 1 月的時候，國會五法公布了，什麼叫國會五法？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:20:26.904000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:20:49.658000+08:00","text":"就是立法院組織法、立法院各\n委員會組織法、立法院職權行使法、立法院議事規則，以及立法委員行為法，所以才有國會五\n法，國會五法就有國會圖書館等等，為什麼要有國會五法？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:20:49.938000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:21:23.133000+08:00","text":"因為 1993 年我們進來的時候，院長\n，我們那時候進來的時候，你大概不會忘記有個場景，每次劉松藩院長主持院會的時候，光確\n定議事錄，從開始就程序發言，大家全部上臺去排隊登記，排得很長，每一個人都排隊，那時\n候民進黨都排隊去程序發言，劉松藩就在臺上一直講：各位偉大的政治家，程序沒有問題，請\n不要亂發言。","quality":0.803},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:21:25.165000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:21:31.953000+08:00","text":"他的國語是臺灣國語，請陳水扁委員「隨便」發言。","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:21:35.698000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:21:47.612000+08:00","text":"那個場景大家都走過，所以\n後來朝野協商才轉變成大家如果要這樣一直發言，可以弄一個國是論壇，才有國是論壇的來源\n，那時候因為沒有國會五法，立法院的開會和民間團體開會一樣，為什麼？","quality":0.747},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:21:47.612000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:22:17.994000+08:00","text":"一個人可以擋住全\n部，一個人就可以擋住整個院會，包括以前江丙坤是副院長的時候，他是東大的博士，他以前\n一直跟我講說這個東西議事效率都有問題，大家都感覺立法牛步化，為什麼立法牛步化？","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:22:19.034000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:22:23.396000+08:00","text":"因為\n開始的時候，要進入大體討論的時候，一個人可以擋住全部。","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:22:26.237000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:22:30.999000+08:00","text":"清點人數，一清點人數的時候，\n人不夠就散會了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:22:32.179000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:23:01.735000+08:00","text":"但是那一天在表決財劃法的時候，國民黨人不在、人不夠，你就停下來，這\n個我都知道，然後等人夠的時候，他說民進黨少 4 個，因為民進黨少 4 個，不然我們會贏，不\n可能贏的，因為主席是你，你一定會暫停，等到國民黨都叫回來再表決，這個遊戲大家都知道\n。","quality":0.79},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:23:02.756000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:23:17.029000+08:00","text":"所以發生清點人數以後，一個人擋住整個院會，後來才有國會五法裡面的職權行使法。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:23:17.569000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:24:03.827000+08:00","text":"職權行使法第六十八條有朝野協商專章，因為協商以後就有發言人數要多少以及有沒有結論\n，這樣才能夠把整個議事往前推，也可以說你黨鞭去朝野協商簽下了，我不是黨鞭的話，我可\n以連署 16 個人把你否決掉，重新再來，它有 check and balance，不是三黨黨鞭講好就好，就不\n可以抵抗，假如不是黨鞭的委員，他也可以說不行，他連署 16 個就可以重新來，所以立法院的\n協 4\n職權行使法設計得非常清楚。","quality":0.565},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:24:04.548000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:24:24.881000+08:00","text":"而且 1993 年 1 月的時候，職權行使法一直沒有改，只有小幅的修\n正，那今天我要談的就是說，我們這個職權行使法包括第三十三條，包括總統來立法院做國情\n報告，當初寫的坦白講都有違憲之虞，待會兒我再說明給你聽。","quality":0.756},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:24:24.881000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:24:28.103000+08:00","text":"那今天我要談的就是，要把程序性問題先講好，其實今天關鍵是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:24:28.103000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:25:07.072000+08:00","text":"最關鍵就是國民黨排\n的覆議案明天就要表決，我跟傅崐萁說其實大家可以好好談，因為這個法定程序，最後一天一\n定是 16 號，我們不可能違憲到 16 號還不讓它處理，我們把它破壞掉，變成違憲我們要背，我\n們不可能幹這種事情，變成民進黨以後永遠抬不起頭，就是違憲嘛！","quality":0.843},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:25:07.852000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:25:08.933000+08:00","text":"是不是這樣？","quality":1},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:25:08.933000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:25:30.258000+08:00","text":"所以一定會\n如期，不管怎麼樣 16 號一定要完成，這個我敢發誓，我們不可能愚笨到去違憲，然後民進黨永\n遠被攻擊，那枉費我在立法院 31 年來我們一直遵守法律、遵守憲法，所以這是一個很重要的觀\n念。","quality":0.823},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:25:30.978000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:25:53.492000+08:00","text":"我說傅崐萁委員，其實大家可以……他早上十點半打電話給我，他說今天要怎麼處理，我\n說我們都是老兄弟，講的都是直白的話，大家好好談一定什麼事情都沒有，包括我剛才講的覆\n議案也是一樣，一定是如期完成。","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:25:55.093000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:26:03.934000+08:00","text":"但是我們今天有 5 個事情一定要談，我說這 5 個事情一定可以談，不是不可以談。","quality":1},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:26:03.934000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:26:10.477000+08:00","text":"第一個比\n較重要，立法院什麼時候要休會？","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:26:10.477000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:26:36.142000+08:00","text":"韓院長和江副院長一定要到美國去，還有我們一堆人要去美\n國，而且是總統指派的，那我們到 16 號一定要結束，這個大家要思考，假如說美國只有韓院長\n去，江副院長不去、其他人不去的話，那 21 號也可以，這個大家來講都沒關係，這都是可以講\n的，所以這個時間最重要。","quality":0.858},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:26:37.283000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:26:45.405000+08:00","text":"第二個是覆議案，覆議案一定會如期處理，一定保證如期處理，甚\n至好好談也可以提前一、兩天來處理。","quality":0.805},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:26:48.927000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:26:56.050000+08:00","text":"第三個，總預算要不要處理、前瞻預算要不要處理，以\n及台電的追加預算 1,000 億要不要處理？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:26:57.091000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:26:57.831000+08:00","text":"這些都是民生的嘛！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:26:59.112000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:27:00.172000+08:00","text":"是不是這樣？","quality":1},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:27:00.172000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:27:05.555000+08:00","text":"另外，最後一個，我說傅委員，選罷法加 1 要不要處理？","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:27:07.284000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:27:14.129000+08:00","text":"要處理，我們都提早簽給你們，提\n早表決，沒有關係，反正以後要釋憲再去釋憲嘛！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:27:15.410000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:27:28.740000+08:00","text":"不要說選罷法加 1，加 2、加 3 都可以，所以\n國民黨對這 5 個問題當然要好好想、好好協商、好好地說，簽名絕對算數。","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:27:31.594000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:28:01.218000+08:00","text":"尤其我在立法院 30\n年，當了二十幾年的黨鞭，我從來沒有……我用口頭承諾就算數了，我簽名絕對沒有簽完名又\n劃掉的紀錄，你去問過去的王院長，我從來沒有在朝野協商簽名以後，又跑去把它劃掉，但時\n代力量常常搞這一套，黃國昌常常搞這一套，國民黨也常常搞這一套，我連用口頭表述都算數\n，也不必錄音。","quality":0.715},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:28:02.559000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:28:10.725000+08:00","text":"所以今天我在這個地方要很誠懇地講，為什麼我今天要好好做程序發言？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:28:12.318000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:28:44.976000+08:00","text":"縱觀整個立法院是\n大家的立法院，是人民的立法院，不是韓院長一個人的武林，也不是國民黨傅崐萁一個人的武\n林，也不是黃國昌一個人的武林，現在整個國民黨，我們都很清楚，它已經不打算執政了，民\n眾黨也根本不可能執政，柯文哲一審只要判 10 年以上，連選罷法都不能參選，後來不管要選什\n麼都不能選。","quality":0.863},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:28:44.976000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:29:05.903000+08:00","text":"國民黨擺明得很清楚，大法官釋憲釋出來還不承認，所有違法亂紀都認為是應該的，全部講\n謊話，認為這是應該的，認為這是人民的期待，難道你認為臺灣的老百姓都是白痴，看不懂立\n法院在做什麼嗎？","quality":0.802},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:29:05.903000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:29:15.410000+08:00","text":"現在整個國家大家都很擔心，國民黨擺明不可能執政，也不想執政了，為什\n麼？","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:29:15.410000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:29:17.311000+08:00","text":"因為要把國家交給中國嘛！","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:29:19.312000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:29:28.071000+08:00","text":"大家很清楚，所以現在是國家生死存亡的關鍵，就在這幾天，\n協 5\n這些老百姓都看得懂。","quality":0.853},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:29:30.192000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:29:48.362000+08:00","text":"當然，我這幾天講過一句話，有選舉就有罷免，我們在立法院天天被國\n民黨蹂躪、凌遲，被黃國昌委員凌遲、亂罵，我不只要忍起來，還要陪笑臉，為什麼？","quality":0.729},{"speaker":"處處長高百祥","start":"2025-01-09T14:29:48.362000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:29:49.043000+08:00","text":"我們總\n是希望……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T14:29:49.043000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T14:29:50.043000+08:00","text":"柯總召講 30 分鐘了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:29:49.163000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:29:50.664000+08:00","text":"這個很重要。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T14:29:50.664000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T14:29:57.468000+08:00","text":"剛才我已經很禮貌地提醒你……","quality":0.083},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:29:57.468000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:30:00.631000+08:00","text":"沒有關係，不要吵，等一下你可以講我 double 的時間，我還會坐在這裡。","quality":0.742},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:30:01.231000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:30:02.932000+08:00","text":"我今天要講的就是，我真的感觸非常深刻，當然我們都想罷免啊！","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:30:03.033000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:30:29.671000+08:00","text":"但是民間的聲音更大，民\n意已經起來了，我昨天跟今天在臉書上都寫過，包括吳思瑤委員也講過，罷免不是一個人可以\n主導，不是我柯建銘可以主導，也不是一個黨可以主導的；同時罷免不是一個人或一個黨可以\n阻擋的。","quality":0.831},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:30:40.213000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:30:51.762000+08:00","text":"沒有一個人可以主導，也沒有一個人可以阻擋，因為都是在民意，就讓民意來解決，\n所以希望在歲末立法院快要結束的時候……","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:30:51.942000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:30:57.527000+08:00","text":"我們也在這裡一年了，大家應該要做個冷靜的總檢討。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:30:57.687000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:31:00.209000+08:00","text":"未來立法院要何去何從？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:31:00.209000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:31:21.475000+08:00","text":"我希望今天的朝野協商，院長不要為了節省時間，我們只有\n這麼多要請你協商的，包括總預算等等，包括……今天這個題目也可以不談，有關要罷免你的\n問題也可以不談。","quality":0.866},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:31:21.475000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:31:27.538000+08:00","text":"但是至少要談一談違法公務人員，他們後續難道不會怕嗎？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:31:27.538000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:31:28.158000+08:00","text":"以後還可以這樣\n嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:31:28.158000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:31:29.719000+08:00","text":"這個東西都是很實際的，是不是這樣？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:31:29.999000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:31:43.378000+08:00","text":"為什麼我們每次提的，從去年 12 月提到今年 1 月 2 號、3 號、4 號我們所提的，要求你協商\n、拜託你協商的全部不見？","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:31:43.378000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:31:46.179000+08:00","text":"今天只有一個題目，就是覆議案。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:31:47.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:31:57.865000+08:00","text":"我跟傅崐萁講過一句話，假如你\n今天什麼都不談，等一下一哄而散，排這個會議室就相當惡意，我為什麼要站在這裡？","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:31:59.107000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:32:22.639000+08:00","text":"因為每\n一黨只有一個麥克風，讓你沒有辦法壓下去就講話，所以我故意在發言臺講話，假如是這樣的\n惡意的話，待會我們的人還是會在程序上面，包括權宜問題上面做發言，請韓院長要包容，這\n個事我們一定要談清楚。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:32:22.959000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:32:35.309000+08:00","text":"我跟傅崐萁講一句話，我說小傅，你今天沒有跟我們好好談，你的覆\n議案走得下去的話，你自己試看看，明天你走得下去嗎？","quality":0.837},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:32:35.309000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:32:36.692000+08:00","text":"包括以後的覆議案你走得下去嗎？","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T14:32:36.692000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T14:32:40.446500+08:00","text":"不要威脅啦！","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T14:32:40.446500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T14:32:44.201000+08:00","text":"柯總召，真的不要威脅人啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:32:44.201000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:32:50.422000+08:00","text":"我是在講實話，因為大家不講好，在大家互相衝突底下，持平而論……","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-09T14:32:50.422000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T14:32:53.923000+08:00","text":"謝謝，32 分鐘了，柯總召，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:32:53.923000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:33:01.746000+08:00","text":"欲速則不達，反而會壞事情，我並不是在威脅，王鴻薇委員，你聽起來有點刺耳，但\n是你要聽我的內容，大家好好講……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T14:33:01.746000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T14:33:02.746000+08:00","text":"我一直認真在聽……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:33:01.746000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:33:03.026000+08:00","text":"大家好好講，一定沒問題……","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:33:03.026000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:33:12.389000+08:00","text":"如果大家要胡鬧，立法院大家都很會胡鬧，胡鬧下去，會發展到什麼地方去？協 6","quality":0.484},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:33:13.930000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:33:15.210000+08:00","text":"沒有一個人可以預料的，好不好？","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-09T14:33:16.391000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:33:18.132000+08:00","text":"謝謝柯總召的程序發言。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-09T14:33:18.432000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:33:20.333000+08:00","text":"特別報告，這個程序發言發言了 32 分鐘……感謝。","quality":0.647},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-09T14:33:20.333000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:33:36.970000+08:00","text":"扣掉前面的走路，你一個程序發言大概 25 分鐘了，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-09T14:33:37.130000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:33:41.592000+08:00","text":"我想你已經表達非常清楚，我\n們還是希望最資深的柯建銘委員是一言九鼎。","quality":0.806},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-09T14:33:49.056000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:34:08.769000+08:00","text":"柯總召，你是最資深的委員，希望你一言九鼎，\n可是因為我們今天是討論憲法訴訟法的覆議案，如果偏離題目太多，慢慢變成九言一鼎，就不\n好了，總召，我良心地建議，好不好？","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-09T14:34:10.030000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:34:21.618000+08:00","text":"只要你講話，我們都是尊重的，因為立法院最資深的就\n是你，全立法院最資深的就是柯建銘委員，全臺灣最會開會的就是我們周萬來秘書長，大家都\n是公認的，我們希望你講話還是一樣，一言九鼎，好不好？謝謝。","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-09T14:34:21.718000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:34:31.247000+08:00","text":"各位黨鞭，我們今天談憲法訴訟法的覆議案，上次已經有非常透澈地討論，但是民進黨黨團\n又提出，希望再度協商，所以召集各位黨團幹部坐在這裡，我們繼續來進行憲法訴訟法覆議案\n的協商。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-09T14:34:31.407000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:34:32.108000+08:00","text":"請來文的民進黨黨團表達意見好嗎？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-09T14:34:32.148000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:34:46.472000+08:00","text":"請蔡書記長，國民黨黨團請準備。","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2025-01-09T14:34:46.933000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:34:47.913000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2025-01-09T14:34:47.913000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:35:09.668000+08:00","text":"院長，你剛才說我們柯總召會一言九鼎，我想在這個前提之下，柯總召講\n得很清楚，他認為立法院在處理覆議案當然要有覆議案程序的進行，這個程序很重要的就是必\n須要有一個全院委員會，全院委員會要邀請行政院長列席，然後我們應該要分頭去報告，這個\n報告是各個政黨對於覆議案的內容（這一次是憲法訴訟法修正條文）會有意見。","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2025-01-09T14:35:09.848000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:35:10.728000+08:00","text":"這個條文，你怎麼可以說跟行政院沒有關係？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2025-01-09T14:35:10.728000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:36:00.773000+08:00","text":"不是這樣的，因為憲法訴訟法涉及到的是我們\n要聲請釋憲，針對我們認為有違憲的事宜，我們有向憲法法庭提出釋憲的權利，就這個權利本\n身，行政院也是一個很重要的機關，所以跟這個機關有關，尤其憲法訴訟法涉及到的不只是機\n關，更重要的是人民要聲請釋憲，每一個人司法救濟的最終救濟權就是要靠憲法法庭。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2025-01-09T14:36:01.834000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:36:15.417000+08:00","text":"這個憲\n法訴訟法未來一旦上路生效之後，它必須要有 10 個大法官才能召開，要有 9 個大法官才能宣告\n違憲，這件事情對於人民司法的救濟權影響太大！","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2025-01-09T14:36:17.418000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:36:40.410000+08:00","text":"所以行政院秉持著這個理由提出覆議，行政\n院長基於憲法的職權，基於人民有這樣的司法救濟權，不應該被立法權侵害，基於這樣的理由\n，當然要來立法院報告。","quality":0.985},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2025-01-09T14:36:42.171000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:37:32.283000+08:00","text":"在上一次協商的時候，我有跟院長報告過，過去唯一有一次沒有邀請行政院長來立法院報告\n，就是在 2013 年會計法第九十九條之一，會計法第九十九條之一當年是因為立法過程中可能有\n一個瑕疵，少了一個字，少了教師的「教」這個字，讓當時的大學教授因為研究案在做財務、\n會計申報的時候有瑕疵，因此被網羅入罪，當年也包括柯文哲，柯文哲還在臺大醫院服務的時\n候，他也有陷入這樣的狀況，但是那一次的會計法修法，就把「教」這個字遺漏掉了，遺漏掉\n之後，當然就會有很多人受到影響。","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2025-01-09T14:37:32.683000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:37:49.855000+08:00","text":"所以當時馬英九總統也對外表達歉意，然後行政院用最快\n的速度提出覆議，立法院也在朝野有充分共識之下，就沒有再邀請行政院長來立法院報告，直\n接就處理覆議案。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2025-01-09T14:37:50.315000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:37:56.928000+08:00","text":"所以那是那個時空背景，但是那個時空背景至少有一個很大的原則，就是朝\n協 7\n野對於這個覆議案有共識。","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2025-01-09T14:37:59.582000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:38:10.147000+08:00","text":"但很明顯的，現在民進黨對於憲訴法的覆議案，看起來我們的立場\n跟國民黨、跟民眾黨立場不一樣，所以朝野沒有共識。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2025-01-09T14:38:10.327000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:38:28.575000+08:00","text":"既然朝野沒有共識的話，我覺得院長還是要履行整個程序的完備、程序的完整，讓行政院院\n長可以來立法院報告，讓我們每個人可以透過質詢的內容，把我們認為我們對於憲訴法這一次\n的覆議案以及憲訴法上路後會對人民訴訟權的傷害，總是能透過這樣一個詢答的過程再次表達\n我們的立場。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2025-01-09T14:38:28.595000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:39:02.455000+08:00","text":"至於詢答的人數，我們可以朝野協商、可以溝通，大家來溝通說：為了要卡在 15\n天內一定要處理覆議案，如果卡在 15 天內的話，最後一天大概是 1 月 16 日，所以我們可以在\n下個禮拜召開全院委員會，也可以再用加開院會的方式來排案，把議程完備，然後讓我們每個\n人都可以充分發言。","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2025-01-09T14:39:02.495000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:39:03.216000+08:00","text":"如果院長覺得會不會程序上又被發言卡住了？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2025-01-09T14:39:03.476000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:39:22.207000+08:00","text":"剛剛柯總召也說，他用他的\n人格保證，他一定會讓覆議案處理。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2025-01-09T14:39:22.588000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:39:45.500000+08:00","text":"所以我們可以控制發言的人數，就像我們之前在處理幾個\n法案的時候，上禮拜五我們在處理法案的時候，不管是 5、5、1，甚至條文的時候只剩下 1、1\n、1，但是那都是在朝野共識之下，怎樣把時間控制在當天內可以完整、可以處理法案。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2025-01-09T14:39:45.960000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:40:16.359000+08:00","text":"所以院長，我們如果秉持著這樣一個精神，在大家同意之下，下個禮拜讓行政院長來列席、\n讓我們可以質詢，然後再用最快的時間安排最後覆議案的表決，就像我們總召說的，如果表決\n結果民進黨還是輸了，我們自己再尋求之後的救濟途徑，那就變我們自己黨團後續的決策，但\n是至少立法院展現的就是，我們對於程序應該怎麼走這件事情是有堅持的。","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2025-01-09T14:40:17.280000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:40:35.359000+08:00","text":"過去有太多覆議案\n的前例在前面，唯一一個沒有邀請行政院長來報告的就只有那一個狀況，那一個狀況是朝野對\n於覆議案的內容有共識，但我們今天是沒有共識的，好不好？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2025-01-09T14:40:35.479000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:40:38.799000+08:00","text":"院長，我們還是希望可以照程序\n來進行。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-09T14:40:39.140000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:40:39.280000+08:00","text":"謝謝蔡書記長的發言。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-09T14:40:39.420000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:40:39.580000+08:00","text":"請國民黨團發言。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-09T14:40:39.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:40:39.960000+08:00","text":"台灣民眾黨請準備。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:40:40.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:40:40.240000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:40:40.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:40:57.774000+08:00","text":"首先，針對蔡易餘書記長提到要不要邀請行政院長來的這一點，剛才柯總\n召講得很清楚，程序正義一定要遵守，今天為什麼我們不邀請行政院長？","quality":0.712},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:40:58.474000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:41:27.706000+08:00","text":"因為我們認為不用邀\n請行政院長來，這完全是依照立法院職權行使法第三十三條的規定，這是依法有據的，行政院\n長今天在開記者會時，也非常清楚的表達他對整個覆議案的看法，在現在這個時期，現在是總\n預算迫在眉睫要審的階段，我們是不是要在覆議案上花那麼多的時間？","quality":0.544},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:41:28.646000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:41:30.707000+08:00","text":"我想各黨真的要慎重的\n思考。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:41:31.567000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:41:59.943000+08:00","text":"如果我們還在拖，拖到最後一天 16 日，然後 21 日我們就要休會了，你再拖，我們總預\n算真的會審不完，我想三黨對於在這個會期休會以前儘速把總預算三讀通過，這也是全國民眾\n殷殷企盼的，所以我們搞不清楚，為什麼民進黨一直堅持要在 16 號，這有什麼意義呢？","quality":0.534},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:42:00.523000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:42:01.483000+08:00","text":"我們真\n的搞不清楚。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:42:06.990000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:42:21.196000+08:00","text":"上次院長跟我們在議場後面小協商室的時候，柯總召就提到行政院長不用來報告\n，他說他沒問題，他有做這樣的承諾，剛剛卻講一定要請行政院長來。","quality":0.492},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:42:24.158000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:42:36.042000+08:00","text":"我想程序上是沒有問題\n的，院長也已經在記者會講那麼清楚了，所以我覺得我們不邀請他來，絕對站得住腳。","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:42:37.104000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:42:37.605000+08:00","text":"這是第\n一點。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:42:37.605000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:42:48.202000+08:00","text":"第二點、我想在覆議的程序裡面，如果要早，我們希望是不是就在明天儘速來處理？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:42:51.243000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:42:59.628000+08:00","text":"我們也\n希望民進黨一言九鼎，就讓整個覆議案依照相關規定來表決。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:43:00.088000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:43:06.452000+08:00","text":"剛才聽到你們又恐嚇說「不然你\n協 8\n試試看」、「你們如果敢這樣做試試看」，用這種恐嚇的方式。","quality":0.694},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:43:06.592000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:43:26.285000+08:00","text":"你一開始說程序正義很重要、\n實質正義很重要，但我們照程序走，你又恐嚇我們，真的有時候我不曉得是我們資淺，還是怎\n麼樣，聽到資深的前輩一下子講這樣，一下子講那樣，前後都兜不起來。","quality":0.545},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:43:27.546000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:43:43.611000+08:00","text":"我覺得如果真的要讓\n立法院往前走、讓議事能夠和諧的話，柯總召常常講「照步來」，就不要再占主席臺了、不要\n再破壞整個投票的程序了，大家「照步來」。","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:43:45.979000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:43:54.662000+08:00","text":"既然程序的規定那麼清楚，我們就請議事處安排\n整個投票的流程，我們儘速把覆議案完成。","quality":0.676},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:43:55.442000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:44:22.675000+08:00","text":"未來對於總預算，我們趕快來把總預算審完，因為\n我們剩下下個禮拜的時間而已，我們還要二輪的黨團協商，預計時程一定要在下個禮拜二以前\n，把二輪的黨團提案處理完畢，讓財委會彙整，然後我們就要開始一系列的挑燈夜戰進行黨團\n協商。","quality":0.505},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:44:24.176000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:44:30.361000+08:00","text":"協商完畢，我們最多只剩幾天可以表決，只有下下禮拜一跟二，所以整個時程非常緊湊\n。","quality":0.657},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:44:32.122000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:44:37.104000+08:00","text":"你要到 16 號才處理覆議案，那總預算怎麼審得完？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:44:38.085000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:44:42.727000+08:00","text":"所以我們建議就是明天，明天就來處理。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:44:43.307000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:44:44.668000+08:00","text":"以上，謝謝院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-09T14:44:44.668000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:44:46.369000+08:00","text":"謝謝林思銘書記長表達意見。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-09T14:44:46.369000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:44:47.389000+08:00","text":"接下來請台灣民眾黨團吳春城幹事長表達意見。","quality":0.45},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-09T14:44:47.389000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:44:47.930000+08:00","text":"吳春城幹事長，請發言。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-09T14:44:49.110000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:44:49.791000+08:00","text":"吳春城幹事長來看\n主席這裡，看一眼，不要被分心了，請。","quality":0.318},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2025-01-09T14:45:04.125000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:45:36.027000+08:00","text":"剛才柯總召講到要重塑國會文化、不要打架，昨天我也陪韓院長接待日本臺灣商會聯\n合總會，很多人都在反映，其實也讓院長不太有面子。","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2025-01-09T14:45:36.568000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:45:55.147000+08:00","text":"他們說他們在海外都很熱愛臺灣，但是\n每天看到國會在打架，真的讓他們在國外感到很丟臉，我們的國家、我們的祖國怎麼是這樣子\n？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2025-01-09T14:45:56.347000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:46:09.511000+08:00","text":"非常呼應剛才柯總召所提的，的確是應該重塑國會文化，就是大家能夠和諧。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2025-01-09T14:46:09.511000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:46:18.375000+08:00","text":"像壯促法通過\n的時候，很多人回應我那個畫面，都說三黨大合影，然後大家一起……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T14:46:19.436000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:46:19.776000+08:00","text":"看了會流眼淚。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2025-01-09T14:46:19.916000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:46:21.556000+08:00","text":"看了會流眼淚，真的很感動，很久不曾看到這樣的畫面。","quality":0.455},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2025-01-09T14:46:21.637000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:46:42.479000+08:00","text":"但現在是這樣子……不要這\n樣一直吵，就是說……","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2025-01-09T14:46:42.479000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:48:13.378000+08:00","text":"就是立法院對憲法訴訟法，其實這一個我們是用各國的比較憲法很用心去研究，所以\n現在這個版本提出來，其實是符合國際的例子，我們花了很多心思開研討會，事實上它並不是\n一個擴權法案，因為憲法是何等的需要慎重，而我們現在的憲法法庭真的也沒有獲得人民的信\n任，成為一個政治鬥爭的舞臺，這的確是要檢討，的確是這樣子，所以本黨的回應就是，我們\n認為行政院不該提出覆議，既然提出覆議，就要依照立法院職權行使法、議事規則來處理，基\n本上我們認為行政院不要越俎代庖，不要把司法院變成司法科、司法局，不能行政院擴權比立\n法院擴權還厲害，什麼事情立法院通過的都不執行，這個非國家之福，這是民眾黨的基本立場\n。","quality":0.847},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-09T14:48:15.873000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:48:17.015000+08:00","text":"謝謝吳春城幹事長的發言。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-09T14:48:17.176000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:48:19.661000+08:00","text":"接下來吳思瑤幹事長請發言，國民黨黨團請準備。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-09T14:48:28.133000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:48:29.154000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-09T14:48:29.154000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:48:39.201000+08:00","text":"首先就今天的協商主題只排一案，就是憲訴法覆議案的處理日程，本黨團\n還是覺得非常好奇，為什麼只排這一案？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-09T14:48:39.862000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:48:50.888000+08:00","text":"事實上，民進黨黨團行文給韓院長的，我們認為朝野\n協 9\n協商要進行的議案很多，包括前瞻基礎建設預算、台電追加減預算、公平會人事同意權，也包\n括民進黨黨團提案改選立法院正副院長的案子，這個案子在程序委員會一再被阻擋，這些等等\n的案子，都是在我們的發文裡希望一定要透過朝野協商來討論的，但今天卻只排這一案，我們\n覺得這種選擇性排案，實在有悖常理。","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-09T14:49:13.738000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:50:26.284000+08:00","text":"第二，回到今天的主題憲訴法覆議案，本席還是要再說明一下，憲訴法影響的是所有國人憲\n法救濟的權利，同時也當然影響國家最高行政機關行政院的權益，所以行政院對於憲訴法，本\n身是 stakeholders，它也必須為人民尋求救濟手段，所以行政院提請這個覆議案，而且卓院長願\n意負責任到立院來詢答，讓整個憲訴法覆議案可以重行審視、重行討論，再重行議決，這是覆\n議案在整個憲法制度上的設計，如果一個要重行審視是不是窒礙難行的議案，不透過討論而直\n接表決，這完全顛覆、推翻了覆議案要重行審視議案的憲政設計原理。","quality":0.558},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-09T14:50:27.685000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:51:12.286000+08:00","text":"講到過去的慣例，剛剛思銘委員一直說立職法規範的覆議案，不必然一定要求來詢答，我想\n就立法院職權行使法於 1999 年上路到現在，幾次的覆議案行使，史上唯一的例外、極端的例外\n就是會計法，剛剛易餘委員也說過了，大家不要忘記，會計法覆議案之所以沒有進行詢答就進\n行表決，它有幾個前提，第一，它本身是單一條次、單一文字的缺漏，很單純、很簡單，不需\n要再討論，大家都理解。","quality":0.597},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-09T14:51:13.206000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:51:41.722000+08:00","text":"第二，2013 年該次會計法覆議案不進行詢答，直接處理、投票，是經\n過行政、立法兩院的共識協商，針對這個案子，行政院覺得可以不用來詢答，立法院也同意，\n而且在立法院內部，各黨團也有共識表示同意，所以這個案子各黨就都不詢答，大家都 OK。","quality":0.608},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-09T14:51:42.542000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:51:55.526000+08:00","text":"所\n以前提除了覆議的法案內容相對單純外，第二，它是在行政、立法的共識下、在立院各黨團的\n共識下，作成不詢答的決定。","quality":0.653},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-09T14:51:56.366000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:53:09.117000+08:00","text":"除了那一個極端例外的例子之外，從 2002 年財劃法的覆議案，有\n詢答，15 個人次；2003 年公投法的覆議案有詢答，23 個朝野立委詢答；2004 年三一九槍擊事\n件真相調查委員會的覆議案有詢答，23 個委員詢答；第四次是農會法、漁會法在 2007 年的覆議\n案，朝野各推 5 位立委詢答；再來 2014 年地政士法第五條之一修正案的覆議案，同樣地，經過\n協商，朝野共推 17 位不同黨派的委員上臺詢答；再到上個會期的國會擴權法案，也是在韓院長\n主持的朝野協商裡頭，大家都認為這麼重要的覆議案，涉及憲政層級的，一定要透過詢答，所\n以民進黨 11 位、國民黨 11 位、民眾黨 2 位，朝野總共 24 位上臺詢答。","quality":0.589},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-09T14:53:09.898000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:53:40.863000+08:00","text":"所以從立法院職權行使\n法上路到現在，總共有 6 次的覆議案都是經過完整的詢答程序，這才是慣例，這才是常態，請\n不要把會計法那個極端特殊的案例，把它歸類為這是覆議案不詢答就表決的合理化的常態理由\n，這完全說不通。","quality":0.674},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-09T14:53:42.343000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:53:52.447000+08:00","text":"我們看到卓榮泰院長願意來詢答，我們看到在野黨委員，像剛剛幾位委員都\n提到，春城委員也提到，憲訴法真的有剝奪人民的權利嗎？","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-09T14:53:53.287000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:53:53.928000+08:00","text":"有這麼嚴重嗎？","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-09T14:53:54.648000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:54:15.540000+08:00","text":"好，大家詢答的時\n候，吳春城委員可以就您想探詢的問題，跟卓院長直球對決；國民黨的委員更是如此，憲法訴\n訟法是你們提出來的版本，你們要捍衛你們的版本，你認為你們的版本沒有違憲，你們勇敢地\n站上質詢臺一起來對話，卓院長都願意來，你們在害怕什麼？","quality":0.877},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-09T14:54:20.680000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:54:34.112000+08:00","text":"這是第一個，不要剝奪行政院長\n擁有的憲政權利，立法院沒有那麼大，不是立法院叫你來，你就來，叫你不來，你就不能來，\n這是人家憲法機關的憲政權利。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-09T14:54:34.672000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:55:31.958000+08:00","text":"第二個，講到立法院內，立法院有三個主要政黨，民進黨是少數黨，但我們也有 51 個席次，\n協 10\n民進黨的委員針對覆議案非常地慎重，因為是重行審視、reconsideration 的過程，我們想再跟行\n政院長透過對話，針對憲法訴訟法是否有窒礙難行之處、是否有違憲之虞來充分對話，我們有\n我們的權利，所以民進黨的委員也要求我們要，今天少數黨發聲的權利不應當被多數黨予以閹\n割跟剝奪，如果你們不想詢答，OK 啊，我們協商啊，像上個會期排 24 個，國民黨 11 個、民進\n黨 11 個、民眾黨 2 個，你們國民黨不想，你們放棄你們詢答的權利，那你排定，你不來、你不\n問就好了，我們總質詢不都常常這樣嗎？","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-09T14:55:31.958000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:55:34.419000+08:00","text":"你改書面質詢也可以啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-09T14:55:35.279000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:55:48.426000+08:00","text":"民進黨委員我們想認真地對\n話，我們不想能撈就撈、能混就混，不好意思，我必須這樣講，為什麼要剝奪我們要認真詢答\n的權利呢？","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-09T14:55:49.146000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:55:57.130000+08:00","text":"如果你們放棄，我們把協商的人次、順序排好，我們要問啊，時間還給我，那是我\n的權利。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-09T14:55:58.091000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:56:32.488000+08:00","text":"所以時間上也是足夠的，從今天開始到憲法賦予覆議案的 15 天議決期限還有 total 5 個\nfull days、5 個全日，當中有兩天是院會的時間，我們還可以把其他委員會的時間調整議程，改\n開全院委員會，還有 5 個時間、5 天的 full days，在擔心時間不夠嗎？","quality":0.598},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-09T14:56:34.229000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:56:34.750000+08:00","text":"我不懂啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-09T14:56:35.891000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:56:52.257000+08:00","text":"然後在野黨委\n員現在說會延宕到總預算審查的期程，這實在讓我覺得倒果為因，總預算當初我們 8 月 30 日送\n來的時候，是誰擋了 70 天，11 月 8 號才讓它付委？","quality":0.881},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-09T14:56:53.678000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:56:56.259000+08:00","text":"總預算是哪一個委員會現在還沒有排審完？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-09T14:56:56.659000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:57:02.501000+08:00","text":"就在樓上，司法及法制委員會吳宗憲委員排的最後一個、最末班，是誰在延宕總預算啊？","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-09T14:57:05.882000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:57:33.353000+08:00","text":"我們\n一定會努力如期，不管是照原訂 1 月 21 號休會日完成總預算案的期程，這本來就是立法院各黨\n都應當善盡的忠誠義務；或者是院長要到美國去，我們甚至加班再加班，讓院會要提早結束也\n可以，但是要完成總預算，我們都有信心啊，你開會到 12 點我們奉陪，開會到天亮 5 點我們也\n奉陪啊！","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-09T14:57:34.133000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:58:06.046000+08:00","text":"我們要把該交的作業寫出來，這才是立法院的工作，不要拿總預算來阻擋覆議案的詢\n答程序，這是慣例、這是常態、這是憲政的原則、這是行政院擁有的憲法權利，也是立法院各\n個立委享有的問政權利，不要用多數黨的意志就來剝奪、沒收我們想要行使我們職權的權利！","quality":0.908},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-09T14:58:06.927000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:58:24.979000+08:00","text":"所以報告院長，時間是夠的，距離 1 月 16 號覆議案的最後一天還有 5 個 full days，表決輸我\n們認了，可是這當中的對話、重行審視、真理越辯越明，這一定要進行！","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-09T14:58:25.579000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:58:35.782000+08:00","text":"所以思銘委員，我們\n都是思字輩的，我們都是要重行思考，透過思考才能夠來確認覆議案是不是合理，對不對？","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-09T14:58:35.782000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:58:37.342000+08:00","text":"所\n以不要害怕直球對決。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-09T14:58:37.342000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:58:37.543000+08:00","text":"謝謝，謝謝思瑤、思銘堂兄妹。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-09T14:58:37.563000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:58:38.263000+08:00","text":"接下來我們請王鴻薇委員發言，民眾黨團請準備。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T14:58:47.866000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:58:48.107000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T14:58:49.507000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:59:32.436000+08:00","text":"我想先講一下，有關於國會和諧的問題，沒有人想要打架，我們又不是神\n經病，老實講，我都覺得我是氣質美女，我也不想到這邊來潑婦罵街，也不想動手，但是我們\n要想想看誰是始作俑者，我們從上個會期到現在，兩黨都有霸占主席臺，我承認兩黨都有霸占\n主席臺，但問題是霸占主席臺的目的完全不一樣，不管是在委員會裡面或在院會裡面，民進黨\n霸占主席臺的目的是讓會議開不成！","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T14:59:35.515000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:59:41.156000+08:00","text":"不管是在內政委員會或在院會裡面，就是讓會議開不成！","quality":0.609},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T14:59:42.257000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:59:45.958000+08:00","text":"所以我想請問一下，這樣是一個合理的國會嗎？","quality":0.579},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T14:59:48.098000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T14:59:49.738000+08:00","text":"這是一個符合民主程序的國會嗎？","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T14:59:51.199000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:00:04.642000+08:00","text":"我想不管院\n長、副院長、秘書長或者所有議事人員也很感慨、也很為難，大家誰不想好好的坐在那裡開會\n呢？","quality":0.721},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:00:06.437000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:00:06.437000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:00:06.437000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:00:09+08:00","text":"大家都是正常的嘛，大家都是正常人！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:00:09.981000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:00:14.285000+08:00","text":"我們沒有想要打架；而國民黨有沒有霸占\n主席臺？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:00:14.685000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:00:19.750000+08:00","text":"也有，但是國民黨的霸占主席臺是為了讓會議能夠進行，不得不、迫不得已、實在不\n協 11\n得不為！","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:00:28.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:00:44.686000+08:00","text":"所以我要講的是，國會和諧是大家的責任，我同意；然後我們現在國會紛紛擾擾，確實讓很\n多民眾會擔心，我也同意，但是我們必須釐清責任，誰是始作俑者？","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:00:45.747000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:00:50.288000+08:00","text":"這一點不要各打五十大板\n或者把責任推給在野黨，錯！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:00:52.420000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:00:53.840000+08:00","text":"我們是為了讓會議能夠召開，這一點我們必須要很清楚的說明。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:00:53.860000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:01:40.016000+08:00","text":"接下來，我們今天的重點就是憲訴法的覆議案，我們在上一次的協商，雖然我們覺得這個協\n商已經經過院長的開會協調，但是院長很尊重民進黨，而國民黨跟民眾黨今天也都坐在這邊，\n我們也很尊重民進黨再次提出，所以我們也願意在這邊再做協商，包括剛才光是柯總召一個程\n序發言落落長將近 30 分鐘，我們也非常的尊重、就讓他發言。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:01:41.897000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:01:43.498000+08:00","text":"所以我必須要講，即便是在協商\n的過程裡面，我們也表達了充分尊重！","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:01:43.638000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:03:02.883000+08:00","text":"至於我們現在處理覆議的時間，因為確實我們接下來只剩下 4 個院會，當然我們也可以去協\n商加開院會，但是也不要忘記，因為我們在覆議案的過程裡，必須除了要開院會來處理這個表\n決案之外，也要召開全院審查會，這樣的一個過程，不然的話，我們就是占用委員會的時間，\n所以我們的時間已經非常非常的緊迫，只有 4 個院會的時間，到目前為止，中央政府總預算還\n沒有進行協商，因為我們協商也要花時間，即便我們都已經做好甚至要挑燈夜戰、馬拉松式的\n協商，但是我們也要考慮，就如同剛才柯總召也講到院長要去美國參加就職典禮，當然我們情\n商江副院長，為什麼要讓江副院長留下來？","quality":0.788},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:03:03.683000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:03:18.191000+08:00","text":"因為柯總召已經對外說了，他說如果院長不在，副\n院長也不在，就由他來主持會議，我們聽了以後會有一點害怕，所以我們還是希望至少江副院\n長來主持會議。","quality":0.641},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:03:19.753000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:03:23.156000+08:00","text":"所以現在以這個時間點來說，只剩下 4 次院會，也許要加開院會，但是我們能不能處理中央\n政府總預算？","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:03:23.276000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:04:25.191000+08:00","text":"有時候我覺得很荒謬，照理說，比較著急總預算的應該是執政黨，這個預算通過\n了，其實是執政黨給行政部門在使用，可是我覺得好奇怪，我覺得這幾天給我的感覺為什麼反\n而是執政黨不急著來處理總預算，反而急著要花很多的時間來處理覆議案，如果由行政院長來\n報告，然後 11、11 加 2，24 位，那請問一下，我們要花多少時間來做院長的報告跟院長的答詢\n？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-09T15:04:25.191000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T15:04:26.191000+08:00","text":"時間可以縮短啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:04:25.191000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:04:30.594000+08:00","text":"等一下，我剛剛沒有打斷，你們待會就可以提出來你們的版本，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:04:30.774000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:04:51.597000+08:00","text":"今天其實院\n長報告這個平臺，老實講，現在是一個資訊網路極為發達的時代，他站在立法院議事廳裡面來\n報告跟他今天在行政院召開記者會報告，他的訴求也都可以充分的讓國人知道，不是嗎？","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:04:52.998000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:05:01.382000+08:00","text":"當然\n剛才吳思瑤幹事長說這叫做憲政權利，什麼叫憲政權利？","quality":0.44},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:05:02.722000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:05:05.004000+08:00","text":"請問一下憲法裡面有規定嗎？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:05:06.514000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:05:15.526000+08:00","text":"憲法裡\n有規定立法院處理覆議案，必須要請行政院長來報告嗎？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:05:15.526000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:05:28.131000+08:00","text":"憲法裡面沒有任何的明文規定，沒有\n任何規定，那請問一下憲政權利不是今天一人一黨說了算或一院說了算嗎？","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:05:28.131000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:05:33.714000+08:00","text":"他的憲政權利、所\n有人民憲政權利，不是用憲法保障，就是法律上來保障。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:05:34.814000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:05:39.876000+08:00","text":"剛才我們的林思銘書記長也講得非常\n清楚，依照立法院職權行使法第三十三條也是「得」嘛！","quality":0.811},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:05:44.840000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:06:27.668000+08:00","text":"也是「得」，當然最好的狀況之下，\n如果今天我們的院會、整個立法院的議事程序是足夠充裕的話，當然我們就請院長來報告，但\n是現在眼看的是極為地急促，在中央政府總預算部分也可以跟大家報告，因為我們也很著急，\n協 12\n以我們國民黨團來講，我們在下個禮拜一就停止收件，然後我們希望充分配合，因為恐怕院長\n在出國之前，也要花很長的時間來做協商，對不對？","quality":0.776},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:06:27.908000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:06:39.502000+08:00","text":"我們也要給院長和各政黨、各提案的委員\n、各委員會有充分的中央政府總預算說明跟討論的時間嘛！","quality":0.659},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:06:40.765000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:06:41.426000+08:00","text":"覆議案重不重要？","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:06:41.666000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:06:45.954000+08:00","text":"也重要，但是老\n實說覆議案越來越成為家常便飯了嘛！","quality":0.682},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:06:46.752000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:07:00.719000+08:00","text":"我們早就已經開了憲政的前例，現在已經是在最短時間\n裡面行政院提出覆議案，只有短短七個月的時間吧！","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:07:01.579000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:07:09.523000+08:00","text":"搞不好以後會更短，兩、三個月就來一次\n，這都已經變成家常便飯了嘛！","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:07:10.363000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:07:12.403000+08:00","text":"我們預算一年審一次不重要嗎？","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:07:14.784000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:07:21.546000+08:00","text":"在極短的時間裡面，是不是可\n以留給中央政府總預算比較充裕的時間來做討論？","quality":0.606},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:07:22.746000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:07:30.559000+08:00","text":"你們一直在指責司法及法制委員會，其他委\n員會都完成了啊，對不對？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:07:30.719000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:07:33.361000+08:00","text":"在這樣的狀況之下，我們表定 21 號要休會，那還要拖什麼呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:07:34.803000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:07:59.988000+08:00","text":"我非\n常感謝剛才柯總召說他發誓……反正我們都有直播，我相信我沒有講錯，他說一定要完成這個\n憲政的程序，不會違憲，否則的話，民進黨也要被罵、會被罵死，沒錯啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:08:00.008000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:08:01.029000+08:00","text":"不只民進黨被罵，\n我們都要被罵死，怎麼可以怠惰成這樣！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:08:01.089000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:08:01.469000+08:00","text":"但是為什麼要 16 號才完成呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:08:01.489000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:08:01.549000+08:00","text":"為什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:08:01.549000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:08:01.829000+08:00","text":"我不懂啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:08:17.419000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:08:18.420000+08:00","text":"人\n家在民間都可以加班對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:08:18.420000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:08:19.281000+08:00","text":"為什麼我們要等到 16 號才完成？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:08:19.441000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:08:20.622000+08:00","text":"我們為什麼要讓議事人員那麼過\n勞，這樣我們是霸凌議事人員耶！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:08:32.814000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:08:33.814000+08:00","text":"到時候我們說我們完成了，我們就回家睡大覺了，但議事人\n員要整理啊！","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:08:33.834000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:08:34.155000+08:00","text":"你當我們完成之後這個就生效了嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:08:34.155000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:08:35.195000+08:00","text":"沒有啊，所以我們不要霸凌議事人員嘛！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:08:35.255000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:08:35.876000+08:00","text":"為\n什麼一定要 16 號才能完成，我不懂耶！","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:08:36.036000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:08:36.456000+08:00","text":"我不懂這個期程到底是什麼意思呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:08:36.556000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:08:36.776000+08:00","text":"要讓大家最後壓線\n嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:08:36.776000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:09:13.597000+08:00","text":"我們可以提早完成就提早完成，所以在明天……事實上在星期二的時候，我們幾乎把很多\n壓箱的法案都已經清倉得差不多，所以我們為什麼提出星期五大家可以全力來處理覆議案，我\n們把覆議案處理完成之後，大家沒有後顧之憂了，對不對？","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:09:26.079000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:09:31.284000+08:00","text":"而且一定要開審查會嘛，放心啦，\n一定會讓你們講話，這樣子明天我們把它做好，下禮拜我們全心處理預算案，本來民進黨團也\n提出有關於中央政府總預算的問題，對不對？","quality":0.928},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:09:31.284000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:10:01.507000+08:00","text":"還有前瞻、台電等等「一拖拉庫」，所以我們要\n處理的真的非常非常多，下禮拜我們騰出手、騰出時間，好好去處理中央政府總預算，即使是\n如此，我們也要加班啊！","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:10:02.248000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:10:08.152000+08:00","text":"下禮拜我們也要加班，我都已經決定我不要戴隱形眼鏡來了，大家受\n不了了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:10:09.594000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:10:26.915000+08:00","text":"在這樣的狀況之下，所以我們還是覺得既然柯總召這麼識大體、識大局，覺得不會把\n它拖延違憲，那麼我們就努力在星期五把它完成，下禮拜大家都可以好好處理中央政府總預算\n。","quality":0.671},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:10:27.075000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:10:29.437000+08:00","text":"我真的覺得如果今天民進黨黨團的立場是我們不能違憲，我們只要把相關的憲政程序處理完\n，那麼我們就把它處理完。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:10:29.457000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:10:30.617000+08:00","text":"但是我覺得放到 16 號完成，我不懂這到底是什麼意思，是要讓我們\n提心吊膽，還是我們要去霸凌議事人員呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:10:30.637000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:10:30.657000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:10:55.355000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:10:56.336000+08:00","text":"這個就拜託一下了。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:10:57.257000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:11:24.383000+08:00","text":"對不起，主席，讓我再補充一下，因為我覺得一直都在講一些有的沒有的事情，就是說憲訴\n法怎麼窒礙難行又怎麼窒礙難行，其實我們過去提過，現在憲法法庭確實有九成以上的案件是\n來自於民眾所提的釋憲案，但是你知道嗎？","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:11:25.464000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:11:36.814000+08:00","text":"事實上我們不受理的比例……沒錯，九成是民眾來\n聲請，但是根本不受理的高達九成五啊！","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:11:38.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:11:56.435000+08:00","text":"即便最近高虹安的案子，後來法官說不要審、先暫時\n停止審理，說要去提釋憲，但是很多人都認為很可能他也不受理，因為它每個月都是上百件，\n反正就不受理、不受理、不受理，所以你一直在那邊講對民眾的程序怎麼樣、權益影響多大、\n多大、多大，你去問一下，那它為什麼要駁回九成五呢？","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:11:56.656000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:11:57.356000+08:00","text":"它根本沒有在受理嘛！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:12:05.843000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:12:34.948000+08:00","text":"所以我們在這\n個部分，因為你們講了，所以我們必須要做一些回應，因此這一點一定要再做一些回應，在這\n協 13\n邊還是請大家能夠支持，在明天法案也都清倉差不多的狀況之下，我們抓緊時間，趕快把覆議\n案完成，行政院院長今天都報告了，媒體也都報導了，我都拜讀了，對不對？","quality":0.838},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:12:34.948000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:12:36.389000+08:00","text":"我都很清楚，好\n不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:12:36.850000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:12:38.771000+08:00","text":"然後我們各黨團還是可以去充分發言，這樣就好了，好不好？謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-09T15:12:38.771000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T15:12:39.771000+08:00","text":"謝謝王鴻薇委員。","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-09T15:12:38.911000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:12:39.232000+08:00","text":"台灣民眾黨還要再發言嗎？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-09T15:12:39.232000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:12:39.332000+08:00","text":"李坤城委員請準備。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2025-01-09T15:12:51.714000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:13:12.013000+08:00","text":"剛剛思瑤說跟林思銘是「思」字輩，我後來發現林思銘有很多交集，他跟柯建銘也是\n「銘」字輩，你們是「銘」字輩的，那我們兩個是「城」字輩，所以事實上是很容易達成共識\n的。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2025-01-09T15:13:14.096000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:13:46.152000+08:00","text":"我就行政院所提出憲訴法窒礙難行的條文，我看了半天，我一直很認真在看，我就是看不\n懂窒礙難行的理由，當然可以請教，第四條第三項裡面，現在的修正條文是大法官如果未滿人\n數，總統應該在兩個月內補足提名。","quality":0.761},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2025-01-09T15:13:47.072000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:14:03.297000+08:00","text":"而行政院窒礙難行的理由是，這樣子只片面要求總統於兩\n個月內補足提名，惟對於提名後，立法院應於何期限來行使同意權均未有規定。","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2025-01-09T15:14:04.977000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:14:06.979000+08:00","text":"就是他提名，\n但是你們沒有什麼同意啊！","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2025-01-09T15:14:07.719000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:14:13.463000+08:00","text":"這個也未免太沒有信任感了，政治已經……這個就是叫政治責任嘛\n！","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2025-01-09T15:14:15.464000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:14:34.379000+08:00","text":"總統的責任就是不足趕快提到足，現在就是提出好人選，就像考試委員，提出大家可接受的\n人選，這樣朝野很快就都過關了，都沒有問題嘛！","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2025-01-09T15:14:36.982000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:14:43.509000+08:00","text":"所以大家就趕快解決問題，提出好的人選，\n這樣就馬上解決問題了，不要再用釋憲的方式來解決。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2025-01-09T15:14:47.053000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:15:01.610000+08:00","text":"再來，對於第三十條，在修正案裡面提到，參與評議的大法官人數不能低於 10 人，如果宣告\n違憲，不可以低於 9 人。","quality":0.814},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2025-01-09T15:15:02.991000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:15:12.175000+08:00","text":"行政院表示提高判決的門檻會造成少數意見主導憲法法庭。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2025-01-09T15:15:12.355000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:15:13.136000+08:00","text":"我這個也\n聽不懂耶！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2025-01-09T15:15:13.776000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:15:16.677000+08:00","text":"提高門檻反而會變成少數主導？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2025-01-09T15:15:16.677000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:15:25.139000+08:00","text":"那我要問，憲法法庭廢死的時候是用一致決，一致\n決不是一個人就可以主導整個憲法法庭了嗎？","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2025-01-09T15:15:28.719000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:15:46.263000+08:00","text":"每一個案子的理由都不一樣，我覺得這個也很不\n合理，而且以現在來講，我們參考其他國家，像美國大法官是 9 位，要釋憲的時候必須要 6 位\n，就是三分之二；而韓國是大法官 9 位……","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-09T15:15:46.263000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T15:15:50.934000+08:00","text":"它要二分之一……","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2025-01-09T15:15:50.934000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:15:51.714000+08:00","text":"它開會要 7 個人喔！","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2025-01-09T15:15:52.355000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:15:54.635000+08:00","text":"9 個人要有 7 個人，三分之二加一喔！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2025-01-09T15:15:58.097000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:16:00.637000+08:00","text":"然後南非也是三分之二加\n一喔！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2025-01-09T15:16:01.138000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:16:06.199000+08:00","text":"所以我們現在這樣子應該是符合國際常態的法規。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-09T15:16:09.100000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:16:09.100000+08:00","text":"謝謝春城。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-09T15:16:10.061000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:16:11.961000+08:00","text":"請李坤城委員麻煩掌握一下時間，對焦，謝謝。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-09T15:16:14.922000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:16:16.783000+08:00","text":"為什麼我講的時候才叫我掌握時間？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-09T15:16:16.783000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:16:19.084000+08:00","text":"他們講的時候都沒有說要掌握時間耶！","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:16:19.084000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:16:19.764000+08:00","text":"主席，對不起……","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-09T15:16:19.764000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T15:16:21.385000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:16:21.385000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:16:21.645000+08:00","text":"主席，對不起……","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-09T15:16:21.645000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T15:16:22.645000+08:00","text":"輪到我發言，為什麼又輪到他講話？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:16:22.486000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:16:22.946000+08:00","text":"沒有，等一下，我要會議詢問。","quality":0.545},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:16:22.946000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:16:24.847000+08:00","text":"主席，其實我們大家都互相尊重，可是我們過去也講，就是我們在協商的時候，我們\n協 14\n今天協商的氣氛其實是算非常好，對不對？","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:16:24.847000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:16:46.357000+08:00","text":"但是我們本來就都是三長發言，民進黨團三長都發\n言過了，是不是？","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:16:47.118000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:16:47.678000+08:00","text":"所以我……","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-09T15:16:48.078000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:16:49.379000+08:00","text":"你現在是要限制我發言嗎？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:16:49.379000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:16:49.679000+08:00","text":"我還在會議詢問中。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-09T15:16:49.679000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T15:16:50.679000+08:00","text":"坤城兄，你不要激動，他現在問的是會議詢問。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:16:49.739000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:16:49.999000+08:00","text":"我還在會議詢問中。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:16:49.999000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T15:16:50.999000+08:00","text":"請院長回答……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:16:50.039000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:16:52.480000+08:00","text":"我剛剛就講說我們大家都已經非常尊重、互相尊重。","quality":0.762},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-09T15:16:52.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:16:52.901000+08:00","text":"這樣講有失氣質啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:17:07.188000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:17:07.629000+08:00","text":"我有什麼失氣質？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:17:07.629000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:17:07.789000+08:00","text":"我氣質就這樣子，好嗎？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-09T15:17:07.789000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T15:17:08.789000+08:00","text":"那就沒有氣質了啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:17:08.229000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:17:20.703000+08:00","text":"我的意思是大家互相尊重，你態度好，我就睜一隻眼閉一隻眼；態度不好，我們過去\n……","quality":0.788},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-09T15:17:21.304000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:17:24.665000+08:00","text":"這個不是由你來評斷誰的態度好，誰的態度不好，好不好！","quality":0.609},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:17:25.406000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:17:27.147000+08:00","text":"那請問你現在用什麼……","quality":0.444},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-09T15:17:27.147000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T15:17:28.147000+08:00","text":"你是學校老師嗎？","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-09T15:17:28.147000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T15:17:29.147000+08:00","text":"你是訓導主任嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:17:29.147000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T15:17:30.147000+08:00","text":"請問你現在用什麼身分在發言？","quality":0.154},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-09T15:17:29.007000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:17:30.508000+08:00","text":"我為什麼不能來發言？","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-09T15:17:30.568000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:17:32.069000+08:00","text":"院長可以讓我發言，我就發言了啊！","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:17:32.069000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T15:17:33.414750+08:00","text":"我們都有 3 個人，他們只有 1 個人，為什麼你們要發言 4 個人？","quality":0.136},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-09T15:17:33.414750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T15:17:34.760500+08:00","text":"李委員，他現在是會議詢問，等一下我會回答。","quality":0.056},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:17:34.760500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T15:17:36.106250+08:00","text":"民進黨團特別大是不是？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-09T15:17:36.106250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T15:17:37.452000+08:00","text":"這個不是由他來評斷的，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:17:37.452000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:17:39.253000+08:00","text":"你想吵架是不是？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:17:39.653000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:17:41.674000+08:00","text":"我就一直希望大家互相尊重，對不對？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-09T15:17:41.794000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:17:42.174000+08:00","text":"不要吵架！","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-09T15:17:42.174000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T15:17:43.174000+08:00","text":"不要吵架！","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-09T15:17:43.135000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:17:43.555000+08:00","text":"不要吵架！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:17:43.555000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T15:17:44.555000+08:00","text":"你態度不好，你找罵挨啦！","quality":0.1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:17:44.555000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T15:17:45.555000+08:00","text":"院長，我講個話。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-09T15:17:45.555000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T15:17:46.555000+08:00","text":"不要吵架！","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:17:46.555000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T15:17:47.555000+08:00","text":"你找罵挨啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:17:47.555000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T15:17:48.555000+08:00","text":"你找罵挨，我就罵你！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-09T15:17:48.555000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T15:17:49.555000+08:00","text":"你要吵架，吵架，你就要離開啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:17:49.555000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T15:17:50.555000+08:00","text":"坤城，你不要講話。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2025-01-09T15:17:50.555000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T15:17:51.555000+08:00","text":"大家照順序啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:17:51.555000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T15:17:52.555000+08:00","text":"大家不要講話，我講句話良心話。協 15","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-09T15:17:52.555000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T15:17:53.555000+08:00","text":"王委員……\n請等一下，現在是會議詢問，柯總召請稍微等一下……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:17:45.876000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:17:47.758000+08:00","text":"現在是實質問題，不是程序問題，所以實質問題討論的時候，大家都可以發言。","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:18:02.469000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:18:12.098000+08:00","text":"沒有，請尊重主席，我的意思是其實我們過去就有講，就是我們基本上是三長嘛，對\n不對？","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:18:12.278000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:18:17.383000+08:00","text":"如果你不是三長，真的，我也可以叫一堆人，我們就不停地冗長發言了嘛，是不是？","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:18:17.963000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:18:19.244000+08:00","text":"這\n樣子不好，是不是？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:18:19.845000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:18:32.714000+08:00","text":"所以我就覺得各黨團要有互相的尊重，對我來講有超出時間很長的，但是\n我覺得只要氣氛融洽，態度不要太惡劣，我們都願意尊重。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:18:33.575000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:18:40.820000+08:00","text":"所以我講了，你態度好，我就睜一\n隻眼閉一隻眼；你態度不好，我就只好提出來。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:18:40.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:18:55.740000+08:00","text":"所以我尊重院長的裁示，但是你不要讓人家覺\n得得了便宜還賣乖，今天我們是三長嘛，春城只有 1 個人來，是不是？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:18:56.321000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:18:59.003000+08:00","text":"所以態度好一些，尊重\n大家一些……","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2025-01-09T15:18:59.003000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T15:19:00.003000+08:00","text":"大家還是要照順序。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:18:59.684000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:19:00.644000+08:00","text":"基本的尊重不會嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-09T15:19:00.644000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T15:19:01.644000+08:00","text":"什麼叫做態度好一點？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:19:01.644000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T15:19:02.644000+08:00","text":"連尊重的 ABC 都不會嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:19:02.644000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T15:19:03.644000+08:00","text":"不要講話，不要講話，大家不要講話！","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2025-01-09T15:19:03.644000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T15:19:04.644000+08:00","text":"我們還是照順序……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:19:01.025000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:19:01.025000+08:00","text":"坤城不要講話。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-09T15:19:01.025000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:19:03.246000+08:00","text":"我跟鴻薇委員報告一下，我也跟各位黨團幹部報告一下……","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-09T15:19:03.246000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T15:19:14.155000+08:00","text":"照順序啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-09T15:19:14.155000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:19:16.736000+08:00","text":"今天開會到現在目前為止，剛剛 run 是順暢的。對啊。","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-09T15:19:18.277000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:19:27.963000+08:00","text":"感覺上民進黨發言 3 個，是柯總召很聰明，他一開始用程序發言，所以他是用了一個很技巧\n的方式，等到柯總召發言完畢之後，我立刻請國民黨團開始。對啊！","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-09T15:19:29.043000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:19:50.851000+08:00","text":"現在吳思瑤跟蔡易餘兩位都講完了，國民黨團林思銘跟鴻薇委員也講完了，所以我特別請吳\n春城委員，他講了兩次，這一點就是要跟大家報告，我們一定是照過去的慣例，讓三個黨團不\n管人多人少，都能夠平均、公平的發言，這一點一定要請各黨團幹部能夠諒解。","quality":0.858},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:19:50.851000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T15:19:52.322500+08:00","text":"院長，我給你按讚，好不好？來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:19:52.322500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T15:19:53.794000+08:00","text":"院長，讓我講 1 分鐘就好了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-09T15:19:53.794000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:19:57.737000+08:00","text":"不、不、不，我已經講了，你不能再發言，因為現在要李坤城委員發言，我已經講了，然後\n王委員提出會議詢問，所以讓王鴻薇委員先會議詢問……\n協 16","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:19:57.737000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T15:19:58.737000+08:00","text":"我提權宜問題可以吧？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:19:58.737000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T15:19:59.737000+08:00","text":"院長、各位委員同仁。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:19:57.737000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:19:59.658000+08:00","text":"我一開始講就是程序問題或權宜問題，權宜問題是什麼？","quality":0.696},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:19:59.758000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:20:26.611000+08:00","text":"讓會\n議能夠開得下去，王鴻薇講的話我也聽得懂，李坤城也有他的道理。","quality":0.828},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:20:28.672000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:20:31.253000+08:00","text":"他剛才吵起來也有道理，吵起來也有道理啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:20:32.213000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:20:37.295000+08:00","text":"我現在稱讚王鴻薇總可以吧？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:20:38.375000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:20:52.708000+08:00","text":"但是我要\n講一個比較實際的問題，我們現在講的是實質問題，沒有程序問題，因為這個牽涉到整個憲政\n裡面的大問題。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:20:52.708000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:21:16.048000+08:00","text":"我常常講說要當個立法委員，乃至於當個官員，都要有公法及憲法上的常識，\n我們現在講的是一個國家憲政體制上非常重要的問題，同時我要談一個，就是談實質問題的時\n候，當然誰都可以講話，程序問題就三長來就夠了，我們以前就這樣講。","quality":0.888},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:21:17.857000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:21:29.341000+08:00","text":"還有一個，我們大家翻一翻所有的法令，包括六法全書、職權行使法以及議事規則等等，有\n沒有哪一條規定發言的次數和時間？","quality":0.706},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:21:29.341000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:21:29.561000+08:00","text":"沒有啊！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:21:30.461000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:21:45.146000+08:00","text":"這是民主的展示嘛，但是我還是覺得大家氣氛好\n，慢慢講沒有關係，所以我講話的時候一直看王鴻薇臉龐有沒有笑，眼睛有沒有笑，怕得罪他\n，怕講不下去，然後吵起來，所以我希望和諧，和諧就好了，好不好？","quality":0.476},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-09T15:21:45.266000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:21:45.386000+08:00","text":"我可以講話嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-09T15:21:45.386000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:21:45.427000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-09T15:22:02.755000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:22:19.151000+08:00","text":"剛剛春城兄，我們「城」字輩的，對於憲訴法有很多\n的疑義，很好，有很多的疑義，就等行政院院長來立法院跟不管是春城兄，或是國民黨跟民進\n黨所有的委員講清楚，這就是覆議嘛！","quality":0.873},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-09T15:22:19.712000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:22:26.100000+08:00","text":"提覆議的話，行政院一定有話想講，有話想講就在立法\n院講是最正式的嘛！","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-09T15:22:26.601000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:22:43.839000+08:00","text":"所以剛剛春城兄的這些問題跟質疑，沒有關係，我相信我們卓院長一定會\n講得很清楚，但是講一定是在立法院講，因為他是對立法委員來做負責的，不是像你們說的開\n記者會、在臉書上面有寫就講得很清楚了。","quality":0.965},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-09T15:22:44.479000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:22:48.022000+08:00","text":"其實卓院長在臉書上面或是記者會講的，他都是講\n很遺憾，他是很遺憾啊！","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-09T15:22:48.442000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:22:49.683000+08:00","text":"他連最基本說明的機會都被剝奪了，而且絕非是遺憾兩個字可以形容\n，比遺憾更遺憾啊！","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-09T15:22:49.723000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:23:11.659000+08:00","text":"所以院長，真的，您是立法院院長，邀請行政院院長來立法院做覆議案的\n說明，我認為這個是行政院長的義務，不是只有權利而已。","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-09T15:23:12.580000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:23:49.415000+08:00","text":"剛才國民黨的委員有講，明天是院會要審法案，所以最好覆議案一起講，如果明天院會一起\n處理覆議案的話，才真正是在阻擋法案的進行，因為院會本來就是有什麼法案就要來審查，但\n是行政院院長要來立法院做覆議案的說明，是要開立法院的全院委員會，那要開全院委員會，\n我們就是另外再訂個時間，也不會影響到院會的進行嘛！","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-09T15:23:50.015000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:23:57.979000+08:00","text":"所以如果明天就要排院會，然後就要\n把覆議案排進去，馬上就要表決，這才是占用時間啦！","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-09T15:23:58.819000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:24:17.454000+08:00","text":"所以院長，按照慣例，行政院院長來立\n法院就覆議案說明，過去都是在全院委員會來做說明，所以應該是在下個禮拜排個時間開全院\n委員會，請行政院院長來做覆議案說明，這才是正辦。","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-09T15:24:18.355000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:24:38.996000+08:00","text":"而且我看除了司法委員會現在還在審預算之外，很多委員會預算都已經審完了，其實是有時\n間來開不論是全院委員會來處理覆議案，或是剛剛國民黨的委員有講，現在總預算很重要，那\n沒關係啊！","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-09T15:24:39.536000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:24:45.722000+08:00","text":"我們也可以加開院會，再講總預算的事情，因為追根究柢，是誰在擋總預算？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-09T15:24:45.882000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:24:46.542000+08:00","text":"是國\n民黨在擋總預算啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-09T15:24:49.705000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:24:50.365000+08:00","text":"擋了 6 次耶！","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-09T15:24:50.866000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:24:52.626000+08:00","text":"程序委員會就把它擋掉了耶！","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-09T15:24:53.447000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:25:00.610000+08:00","text":"行政院在 8 月底的時候就把總\n協 17\n預算送到我們立法院來了，但是我們立法院是哪時候才開始把總預算付委？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-09T15:25:01.850000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:25:02.811000+08:00","text":"是在 11 月 8 號耶！","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-09T15:25:03.571000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:25:08.854000+08:00","text":"11 月 8 號才把整個總預算來付委，所以是誰在擋總預算？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-09T15:25:09.074000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:25:10.074000+08:00","text":"是國民黨在擋總預算啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-09T15:25:12.895000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:25:18.499000+08:00","text":"擋了兩個多\n月，11 月 8 號才讓整個總預算來付委、才交付審查。","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-09T15:25:18.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:25:28.547000+08:00","text":"現在國民黨就說總預算很重要，總預算當\n然重要，所以我們都可以加開院會來處理，但是不要忘了當初為什麼總預算審那麼久？","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-09T15:25:29.528000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:25:33.712000+08:00","text":"因為國\n民黨在 11 月 8 號才把總預算整個付委。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-09T15:25:34.753000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:25:58.396000+08:00","text":"另外，其實我們今天朝野協商本來也有提到，協商的部分除了憲訴法之外，還有 114 年度中央\n政府的總預算、前瞻預算這些特別預算、追加預算等等，本來也想今天朝野協商的時候請院長\n來做處理，但是今天沒有，今天就只有談憲訴法。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-09T15:25:59.836000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:26:04.678000+08:00","text":"現在國民黨最常用的理由是憲訴法關行政院\n什麼事情？","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-09T15:26:05.618000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:26:06.578000+08:00","text":"當然關行政院的事情嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-09T15:26:08.179000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:26:25.182000+08:00","text":"這個剛才大家講得很清楚了，99%以上的案子都是人民的釋\n憲案，按照司法院所提供的資料，現在還有四百多件還在司法院裡面，等待憲法法庭來做審理\n。","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-09T15:26:26.102000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:26:31.383000+08:00","text":"如果按照國民黨的邏輯，憲訴法是司法院，關行政院什麼事情？","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-09T15:26:31.703000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:26:32.784000+08:00","text":"為什麼要行政院院長來做覆\n議案說明？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-09T15:26:34.664000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:26:40.988000+08:00","text":"那立法院職權行使法這個擴權法案通過之後，行政院有沒有提覆議？有啊！","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-09T15:26:41.668000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:26:43.689000+08:00","text":"行政院\n院長有沒有來做說明？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-09T15:26:44.110000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:26:44.410000+08:00","text":"也有啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-09T15:26:45.510000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:26:49.213000+08:00","text":"為什麼那時候國民黨就沒有說這是立法院職權行使法，關行政\n院什麼事情？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-09T15:26:49.773000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:26:52.695000+08:00","text":"沒有嘛，還是來做說明，因為跟行政院也有相關。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-09T15:26:53.835000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:27:01.924000+08:00","text":"憲訴法也是一樣，也是跟行政\n院有相關，因為是代表這麼多人民來做憲訴法覆議案的說明，相當的合理。","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-09T15:27:02.665000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:27:05.708000+08:00","text":"所以是誰把手伸進\n司法院？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-09T15:27:06.129000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:27:08.171000+08:00","text":"不是行政院，是立法院！","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-09T15:27:08.892000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:27:10.333000+08:00","text":"立法院把手伸進去了！","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-09T15:27:12.435000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:27:18.897000+08:00","text":"憲法訴訟法就好像是憲法法庭的職權\n行使法，如同我們自己的立法院職權行使法。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-09T15:27:19.697000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:27:37.323000+08:00","text":"按照憲訴法第四條規定，要怎麼審理人數，是由\n大法官自己決定的，不是立法院定了法把手伸進司法院決定要怎麼開會、幾個人可以開會、幾\n個人可以評審，這樣完全是把立法權伸進司法權了！","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-09T15:27:38.304000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:27:44.668000+08:00","text":"今天行政院來做覆議案的報告，絕對不是\n行政院把手伸到司法院！不是！","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-09T15:27:45.528000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:27:56.716000+08:00","text":"是立法院、是國民黨通過的憲訴法先把手伸進司法院了，行政\n院才被迫必須來做覆議案的說明與報告，我把話講清楚。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2025-01-09T15:27:56.836000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:28:05.608000+08:00","text":"我看院長已經點頭微笑了，我先說到\n這邊，謝謝院長。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-09T15:28:05.608000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:28:06.469000+08:00","text":"謝謝李坤城委員的發言。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-09T15:28:06.869000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:28:17.039000+08:00","text":"各位黨團幹部，我特別報告，剛剛民進黨團兩次提出所有有關朝野\n協商的議案，包括國民黨團、台灣民眾黨團大家所提出的議案，我們都會納入朝野協商。","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-09T15:28:17.499000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:28:22.844000+08:00","text":"所以\n下星期我們會繼續朝野協商，這一點跟各位報告，請大家不要存有疑心。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-09T15:28:23.324000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:28:28.429000+08:00","text":"這不是閃躲，是因為\n憲訴法覆議案明天就要審查了，所以今天才特別排這個案。","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-09T15:28:29.630000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:28:33.471000+08:00","text":"包括我本人在內的什麼立法院長、\n副院長改選案，我們都會面對問題，不會閃躲，這一點特別報告。","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2025-01-09T15:28:33.631000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:28:34.331000+08:00","text":"院長，明天是很重要的程序……","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-09T15:28:36.532000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:28:36.772000+08:00","text":"我知道。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-09T15:28:37.232000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:28:43.554000+08:00","text":"第二個，各黨團都做了發言，有的黨團希望行政院長來報告，有的黨團希望明天就\n處理。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-09T15:28:44.974000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:28:54.677000+08:00","text":"由於憲訴法已經是第二次協商，上一次也已經決定一切依規定處理，但民進黨團又提出\n來，我們也很重視，所以今天下午又再一次協商。","quality":0.764},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-09T15:28:55.637000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:29:00.797000+08:00","text":"這樣的話，一切還是一樣，我們就依照規定\n，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:29:00.797000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T15:29:02.640000+08:00","text":"等一下，你不要搞這一套……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-09T15:29:02.640000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T15:29:04.483000+08:00","text":"覆議案不是一般議案，依什麼規定？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-09T15:29:04.483000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:29:06.987000+08:00","text":"沒有辦法達成共識嘛！協 18","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-09T15:29:07.287000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:29:08.729000+08:00","text":"這要朝野協商來決定啊！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-09T15:29:09.811000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:29:12.595000+08:00","text":"要不要我們就休息 5 分鐘來協商一下，好不好？","quality":0.722},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-09T15:29:12.796000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:29:13.196000+08:00","text":"休息一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-09T15:29:13.196000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T15:41:56.679000+08:00","text":"休息（15 時 29 分）\n繼續開會（15 時 41 分）","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-09T15:41:56.679000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:42:01.422000+08:00","text":"現在我們繼續開會，柯建銘總召請求發言，我們請柯總召。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:42:01.422000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T15:42:17.911000+08:00","text":"我先行個禮！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:42:17.911000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:42:18.731000+08:00","text":"上帝賜我吃的，韓院長賜我發言，這一定要感謝一下。","quality":0.524},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:42:29.431000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:42:30.012000+08:00","text":"院長、各位委員同仁。","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:42:30.232000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:42:38.232000+08:00","text":"等一下\n，我跟各位保證，請大家注意聽。","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:42:38.232000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:42:46.517000+08:00","text":"保證我講的方式大家聽了……王鴻薇講說我葫蘆裡到底賣什\n麼？","quality":0.76},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:42:47.577000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:42:50.999000+08:00","text":"我是要把事情解決，而且很圓滿，就如此而已。","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:42:55.342000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:43:04.190000+08:00","text":"希望讓我把整個論述講完，對於各位所提\n的問題，我一一回答，不是博士，但我一一回答，這個才是正辦，這才是溝通嘛。","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:43:04.290000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:43:18.097000+08:00","text":"第一個，針對吳春城委員第一次發言時所講的，他說大法官會議沒有什麼公信力，對不對？","quality":0.639},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:43:19.677000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:43:26.339000+08:00","text":"這是你講的，也就是說，你有程度上的不瞭解。","quality":0.611},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:43:28.359000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:43:44.144000+08:00","text":"第二個，你說大法官會議以後是 10 比 9，為什\n麼憲法訴訟法用 10 比 9，但國民黨要把它通殺，變成 8 個而已？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:43:45.364000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:43:46.064000+08:00","text":"這一定有其道理嘛。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:43:47.965000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:43:51.265000+08:00","text":"現在我們\n也知道，憲法訴訟法是什麼時候開始的？","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:43:52.506000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:44:12.718000+08:00","text":"因為當年是大法官審議案件法，民國 93 年我進來的時\n候，到民國 108 年 1 月 1 號通過，然後有三年的緩衝期，從 111 年 1 月 1 號的司法節才開始實施\n。","quality":0.827},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:44:14.139000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:44:20.004000+08:00","text":"很諷刺的，後天是司法節，你們 111 要上街頭，是吧？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:44:23.127000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:44:26.850000+08:00","text":"111 上街頭，這是妨害司法公正罪，這\n很諷刺耶！","quality":0.588},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:44:29.833000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:44:31.595000+08:00","text":"柯文哲現在有問題……","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2025-01-09T15:44:31.595000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T15:44:32.595000+08:00","text":"講重點啦。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:44:31.595000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:44:34.637000+08:00","text":"我跟你講，一個一個來，你要有耐心，好不好？","quality":0.471},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:44:38.006000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:44:48.413000+08:00","text":"我這個是法學教育啊，大家參考看看\n嘛，吳春城，大家是好朋友嘛，交換一下意見。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:44:48.413000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:45:04.523000+08:00","text":"司法節上街頭，實質上，這樣的行為，司法已\n死，當然當年從大審法改到憲訴法的時候是 108 年 1 月 1 號，而且有三年的緩衝期，所以 1111\n是這樣的意思。","quality":0.764},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:45:08.205000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:45:23.529000+08:00","text":"但是 111 不是「釘孤枝」，也不是打群架，你要了解這個，所以你們的邏輯完全\n錯亂，黃國昌天天在演笑話給大家聽。","quality":0.884},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:45:23.529000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:45:47.178000+08:00","text":"我在臉書上寫過一句話，就是說，請大家不要再討論柯文哲事件了，那是一個民主國家的諷\n刺，反正柯 P 再怎麼樣，天天在演笑話，也不必天天去追逐他的笑話，要給他漏氣，媒體上不\n應該再談了，因為他已經沒有翻身的餘地了，沒有翻身的餘地。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:45:48.479000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:45:53.381000+08:00","text":"檢察官很有技巧的求刑 28.5 年\n，其實 28.5 年等於是 30 年啦。","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:45:54.002000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:46:13.775000+08:00","text":"柯文哲未來再判三個 28.5 年或三個無期徒刑，合併執行還是\n28.5 年，但是你如果沒有繳回犯罪所得的話，是要關滿期的，所以這個官司是非常險竣的。","quality":0.847},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:46:15.316000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:46:30.427000+08:00","text":"然\n後他天天在電視上，包括提訊的時候亂講話，前言不對後語，我認為這個案子已經很清楚了，\n所以大家要來思考什麼？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:46:30.427000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:46:38.096000+08:00","text":"在一個民主化這麼充足的臺灣，民主化走了 30 年，為什麼臺灣會發生\n這種事情？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:46:38.616000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:46:46.905000+08:00","text":"也就是柯文哲用他的騙術可以騙得這麼久，臺灣社會應該反思這個事情，為什麼要\n反思這個事情？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:46:47.166000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:47:11.481000+08:00","text":"就是民粹嘛，因為民粹的關係造成柯文哲崛起嘛，其實是因為要弄連勝文嘛，\n因為連勝文他是權貴後裔，所以他有他的原罪，大家都罵他，大家都罵他，結果一直排山倒海\n而來，造成柯文哲當選。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:47:11.481000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:47:14.402000+08:00","text":"他不是說要推倒藍綠的巨牆嗎？","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:47:14.402000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:47:20.840000+08:00","text":"但是他今天把自己推倒了，所以這個\n協 19\n東西很弔詭。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:47:20.840000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:47:25.503000+08:00","text":"所以我呼籲大家應該要來檢視這個事情，為什麼臺灣會發生這種事情？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:47:26.344000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:47:26.724000+08:00","text":"這比較重\n要。","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:47:27.925000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:47:44.315000+08:00","text":"我希望大家把眼球轉到另外一個方向來，轉到我們今天要講的憲訴法，講到我們現在臺灣\n的民主是不是會被摧毀，臺灣未來是不是會被中共占領，臺灣的未來還有未來嗎？","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:47:46.099000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:47:51.340000+08:00","text":"所有民間大\n家都很擔心，這個國家以後還有國家嗎？","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:47:51.340000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:47:54.121000+08:00","text":"我們還有 2028 的選舉嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:47:54.121000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:47:58.542000+08:00","text":"臺灣天空在討論這個問題，所以這個比較重要，這一點比較重要。","quality":0.577},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:47:59.403000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:48:25.788000+08:00","text":"至於吳春城所講的，因為憲訴法，我不知道大家有沒有了解憲訴法，我要再強調一次，不管\n任何政治人物乃至於政務官，都要有基本的公法及憲法上的常識，這樣整個國家才能往前進，\n否則的話，完全沒有公法及憲法上的常識，這個國家非常危險。","quality":0.838},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:48:27.369000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:48:46.421000+08:00","text":"坦白講，我對於憲法花了很多\n時間研究，那時候傅崐萁就說要叫我大法官，其實不是，因為我對這個非常在意，就是憲政體\n制要靠大家遵守憲法來維持的。","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:48:47.641000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:49:05.682000+08:00","text":"今天要講的就是說，翁曉玲提出所謂的憲訴法，看起來沒有什麼問題，但是有一個很大機關\n，就是要 10 個、9 個嘛，要開會的時候至少要 10 個人，評議的時候要 9 個人。","quality":0.855},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:49:05.862000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:49:13.750000+08:00","text":"奇怪耶，開會要\n10 個人，違憲審查只要 9 個人，如果有一個人沒有來的話，就等於一個人否決全部嘛！","quality":0.684},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:49:14.511000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:49:16.754000+08:00","text":"只剩下\n8 個人，就等於否決全部了！","quality":0.385},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:49:17.034000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:49:28.443000+08:00","text":"定了就定了，但她根本定一個 8 個就可以否決全部，現在通過了，\n然後你們把大法官同意權全部通殺，是不是就剩下 8 個人，8 個人根本沒有辦法滿足 10 個、9\n個嘛！","quality":0.525},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:49:29.764000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:49:31.784000+08:00","text":"黃國昌也是一樣嘛，他知道……","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-09T15:49:32.104000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:49:38.166000+08:00","text":"柯總召，容我提醒你，你剛剛講那個 solution、解決，我拜託你一下！拜託！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:49:38.166000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T15:49:39.166000+08:00","text":"要出來了、要出來了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:49:38.166000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:49:43.827000+08:00","text":"我把道理講清楚，大家會很清楚我這個邏輯理論是從哪裡來的\n，好不好？","quality":0.759},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:49:43.987000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:49:57.456000+08:00","text":"院長，對不起喔，反正現在才 3 點多而已，至少法定開會時間還可以開到 5 點半嘛\n，不必開這麼久啦，等一下我講完就結束了，好不好？","quality":0.843},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:49:58.136000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:49:59.537000+08:00","text":"我要把一個一個拆開來，好不好？","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:50:00.057000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:50:01.318000+08:00","text":"院長\n，你加減聽一點，不錯啦！","quality":0.545},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:50:01.318000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T15:50:03.909500+08:00","text":"對你沒有壞處啦！","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:50:03.909500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T15:50:06.501000+08:00","text":"你加減聽一下啦！","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:50:06.501000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:50:12.385000+08:00","text":"我有看到你常常很注意在聽，\n但是要吸收進去，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:50:12.485000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:50:21.361000+08:00","text":"不要一直叫我不要講了，我看你的眼睛就不大對，觀其眸子，人焉\n廋哉！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:50:23.382000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:50:44.677000+08:00","text":"所以我現在講的就是說，翁曉玲提這個案子，坦白講，我當然知道他的用意，他提的是要 10\n個、9 個嘛，10 個、9 個當然是定額，我們講的很清楚，定額沒有錯，但是他們把大法官刪成只\n剩下 8 個，根本沒有辦法釋憲嘛！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:50:46.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:50:48.001000+08:00","text":"這個作用在什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:50:48.001000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:50:53.044000+08:00","text":"吳春城委員剛才有講到，賴總統應該再補\n提名嘛，當然賴總統應該補提名，但是賴總統補提名的時候，假如賴總統補提名的人你們又都\n砍掉了，當然最後還是會面臨到一個問題嘛，就是沒有跟我們藍白說好要怎麼通過？","quality":0.629},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:51:07.933000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:51:25.602000+08:00","text":"於是會談\n到所謂政黨比例的名額嘛，他們的戰略是在這裡，要有人進去當大法官，傅崐萁也曾經講過大\n法官應該照政黨比例來，我說什麼時候大法官要照政黨比例來，馬英九有沒有照政黨比例來？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:51:25.602000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:51:55.570000+08:00","text":"大法官從以前到現在都是用審薦委員會在審薦的，由各方推薦，然後審薦委員通過，總統看過\n，總統當然有最後的權力來調整，我們整個大法官人事審查就是如此，包括這次賴總統所提院\n長、副院長乃至於大法官，我們尊重憲法上他的權力，這是他的權力，所以他提誰我們都不知\n道，但是審查是在國會，是不是這樣？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:51:55.570000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:52:17.437000+08:00","text":"國會是自主，我們黨團對於劉教授有意見，黨團就是要\n一致決的嘛，所以我們是 7 個裡面有 6 個贊成、1 個反對，國民黨則是通殺，完全不一樣的味道\n協 20\n。","quality":0.741},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:52:18.498000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:52:36.072000+08:00","text":"所以傅崐萁在講說我們和國民黨一起聯合對抗賴總統，完全錯誤，我們是 6 個同意、1 個不同\n意，一定要一致決嘛，你們是 7 個全部不同意，所以在這裡予以敘明，請不要見縫插針，完全\n毫無道理。","quality":0.747},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:52:37.033000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:52:55.504000+08:00","text":"所以對於吳春城委員，我跟你講的就是這個道理，他們後面戰略目的跟價值在什麼\n地方，當然我很清楚嘛，這是黃國昌和傅崐萁設計的，後面還有所謂的蘇永欽「一拖拉庫」人\n，乃至於北京都有可能。","quality":0.722},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:52:56.704000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:53:05.068000+08:00","text":"所以我最近可能會寫一篇文章來談陳長文和蘇永欽等人，還包括李念\n祖等。","quality":0.774},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:53:05.768000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:53:09.009000+08:00","text":"柯總召，時間。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:53:09.009000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T15:53:10.009000+08:00","text":"好，在 5 點半以前會結束。","quality":0.111},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:53:09.409000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:53:13.710000+08:00","text":"不行，那我們要走囉！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:53:13.710000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T15:53:14.710000+08:00","text":"那我們要走囉！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:53:13.710000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:53:16.351000+08:00","text":"沒有，你走沒有關係，我這個還是有錄音啊！","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:53:16.351000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T15:53:17.351000+08:00","text":"那你就講吧！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:53:16.531000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:53:17.312000+08:00","text":"我主要是要留下紀錄的。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2025-01-09T15:53:17.312000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T15:53:21.193000+08:00","text":"不能這樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:53:21.193000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:53:23.053000+08:00","text":"我一個一個講，這樣大家才會清楚嘛！","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:53:28.575000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:53:30.356000+08:00","text":"在王鴻薇要走以前，我一個一個給你駁斥。","quality":0.647},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:53:33.770000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:53:39.874000+08:00","text":"王鴻薇講我們的總預算很重要，當然很重\n要，一定能夠如期完成嘛！","quality":0.741},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:53:40.754000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:53:49.920000+08:00","text":"但是今天吳思瑤委員乃至於我們所有的委員講的，今天在樓上還在\n審查法務部的預算，是吳宗憲耶！","quality":0.78},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:53:49.920000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:53:51.301000+08:00","text":"是國民黨策略性的在卡嘛！","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:53:52.622000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:53:52.982000+08:00","text":"這個很清楚。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:53:52.982000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T15:53:53.982000+08:00","text":"王鴻薇，奉送啟程\n啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:53:53.982000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T15:53:54.982000+08:00","text":"等一下你再看我……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-09T15:53:54.982000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T15:53:55.982000+08:00","text":"有氣質的，不要走啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:53:55.982000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T15:53:56.982000+08:00","text":"先退駕沒有關係，等一下你再看我發言的影片。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2025-01-09T15:53:56.982000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T15:53:57.982000+08:00","text":"他走了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:53:57.982000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T15:53:58.982000+08:00","text":"沒有啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:53:58.982000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T15:53:59.982000+08:00","text":"他聽不下去了，他覺得漏氣所以聽不下去了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:53:55.520000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:54:22.321000+08:00","text":"所以很清楚的就是，總預算當然審得完，因為韓院長早就跟我講過，假如他 16 號要到美國了\n，我們都可以加開院會到晚上 12 點。","quality":0.673},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:54:24.162000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:54:31.605000+08:00","text":"開會時間可以到晚上 12 點，第二個，我們可以加開院會，所以完全不影響總預算，\n總預算的困難點在什麼地方？","quality":0.744},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:54:32.446000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:55:04.113000+08:00","text":"總預算的困難點就是可不可以開始朝野協商，要這個禮拜五……\n他們審查完畢以後馬上報上來，院會交付下去才可以開始協商，才要叫各黨提出新的意見、新\n的案子，通常這樣的時候大概有七、八千案，然後再叫行政部門去一一溝通，等一一溝通以後\n，當然有的案子就改為什麼？","quality":0.793},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:55:04.113000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:55:08.757000+08:00","text":"改為主決議或改為書面報告就可以，這是整個過程。","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:55:09.878000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:55:23.288000+08:00","text":"那最後回來\n，大家都有看到，包括王院長、蘇前院長以及游前院長在最後協商的時候，喊撤案、撤案、撤\n案，處理得很快，所以這樣才能夠完成。","quality":0.582},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:55:23.588000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:55:39.661000+08:00","text":"但是這裡面有一個重點就是，一定要朝野協商簽字說\n在某年、某月、某日一定要完成，而且要談好刪減總數是多少，等刪減總數出來以後就迎刃而\n解，如庖丁解牛，這是總預算的問題。","quality":0.671},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:55:39.661000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:56:10.589000+08:00","text":"所以我要在這裡告訴王鴻薇委員，院長，你曾經在山上\n協 21\n，去菩薩那個廟裡面坐禪十幾年，你應該很有修養，我今天早上要來的時候還有先念「觀世音\n菩薩普門品」經文，好不好？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:56:11.790000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:56:22.953000+08:00","text":"大家都是要有修養，那你也是相當有修養的人，那聽了這些話對\n你的修養上面也不會有任何破壞，一定有加乘作用，好不好？","quality":0.82},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:56:24.653000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:56:28.056000+08:00","text":"那我最後要談的就是，王鴻薇委員其言差矣！","quality":0.389},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:56:29.157000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:56:46.850000+08:00","text":"那他講了一句話，包括林思銘剛才講了一句話\n，說我在院長室的時候談到其實院長來不來這個可以討論，這是我的想法，但是院長堅持要來\n，當然我們必須尊重，而且這是憲政層次的問題。","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:56:46.850000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:56:47.751000+08:00","text":"我為什麼要這樣講呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:56:48.732000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:57:50.223000+08:00","text":"剛才蔡易餘也有談到\n，有關於 2013 年 5 月 31 號會計法的修正，因為公教人員少打了「教」這個字，那個案子是我\n自己有在現場，所以我最清楚，那個案子的緣由就是說，曾經有一個酷吏叫黃世銘，偏偏要把\n人家抓去關，就是有關於大學教授、院長以及一些教授、助教等等，他們去申請學術的委辦計\n畫，但是把甲的錢用到乙上面去，其實這只是偽造文書而已，他卻要用貪污治罪條例把全國所\n有的大學教授以貪污治罪條例抓去關，這何等大事啊！","quality":0.736},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:57:51.564000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:58:31.145000+08:00","text":"所以當時在我的辦公室裡面常常有人來\n哭訴，甚至坦白講，也有大學教授跳樓自殺的，因為貪污治罪條例是七年以上，其實這個就是\n這樣的由來，所以後來 2013 年 5 月 31 號的時候，因為臺聯的林世嘉找王院長，那時候有親民\n黨，還有我們，臺聯林世嘉是醫界聯盟的秘書長，臺大院長楊泮池教授身上掛著所有的委辦計\n畫四億多，何其多！","quality":0.841},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:58:32.026000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:59:53.837000+08:00","text":"柯文哲只有 10 萬而已，所以這個歷史共業必須解套，所以大家談好了，我\n們也開過黨團會議說這一定要解套，國民黨也開黨團會議說要解套，林鴻池還跟我講說，我說\n這個一定要委員會然後再院會，要經過正常程序，不可以朝野協商這樣簽了就算，所以大家就\n走正常程序，在委員會的時候沒有人有意見，沒有意見的話，於是要到院會的時候，當然大家\n要來簽名，那時候是王院長主持，臺聯先簽，國民黨也簽了，親民黨也簽了，我和當初我們的\n幹事長潘孟安、書記長邱議瑩，我們最後才去簽，在簽以前我們開過黨團會議，告知每一個黨\n團成員，但是這裡面有一個，就是說要為民意代表一起來解套，因為國務機要費……因為特別\n費都已經除罪化了，那這個也應該要除罪化，這就是歷史共業，所以民意代表的助理費用也應\n該解套，當初就是這樣子走下來，所以通過以後，柯文哲的案子也解套了，因為他是教授，\n1450，他有 10 萬塊。","quality":0.823},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:59:56.442000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T15:59:59.364000+08:00","text":"大家知道，通過以後，第一個打電話給誰？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T15:59:59.364000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:00:01.927000+08:00","text":"是打給柯文哲，我說，這個沒\n問題了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:00:04.048000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:00:41.830000+08:00","text":"當然有很多民意代表也要解套，假如當年解套了就沒有今天的高虹安事件，很多助理\n費的事情，但是現在也沒有辦法回溯了，再修法也沒有辦法溯及既往，所以今天要談的就是說\n，有些歷史過程是這樣過來的，我們新竹也有因為這樣，本來以為可以解套，被起訴了 120 年\n，後來也抓去關，當然合併執行，合併執行以後，當然不到 10 年內，後來關了也出來了，所以\n這個歷史過程是這樣的。","quality":0.855},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:00:44.107000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:00:44.668000+08:00","text":"為什麼要談這個東西呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:00:45.888000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:01:14.064000+08:00","text":"因為所謂的會計法，因為我是在現場的人，黃世銘那時候……因為\n大家協商以後簽名，然後叫行政院拿回去再重新打一個案子回來，因為行政院的案子只有公教\n漏打了，大家以為行政院送來的一定沒有問題，就簽下去，那就是黃世銘搞鬼的，把「教」故\n意漏掉，所以全國譁然嘛！","quality":0.706},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:01:17.406000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:01:49.257000+08:00","text":"柯文哲那時候還講說，這個是為顏清標解套，錯了，顏清標已經抓\n去關了，所以我們不敢處理民意代表的事情，所以全國譁然的時候，馬英九把它停下來，要提\n覆議案，進行覆議案的時候，當然少一個字而已，再加回去，這都沒問題，所以剛才蔡易餘委\n協 22\n員所提的就是如此，其他所有覆議案全部行政院長要來，為什麼行政院長應該來呢？","quality":0.776},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:01:50.118000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:02:36.417000+08:00","text":"我們要了\n解，我們立法院通過的法案要走覆議，行政院認為法案、預算窒礙難行的時候，當然他要提覆\n議案，然後來立法院說明，說明以後要表決，然後覆議案一定不會過，那他就必須副署，都必\n須副署，然後送給總統去公告，所以一定是走這個法律程序的，我們民進黨不可能不副署或是\n做違憲的動作，包括我們都是謹守憲法的，今天我要談的就是這個事情，所以覆議案沒有過，\n行政院長必須副署，那副署的時間，這個就是內閣制的精神，內閣制的精神是什麼呢？","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:02:39.920000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:03:14.266000+08:00","text":"也就是\n說，立法院三讀通過的法案，假如行政院認為還有其他配套法案要一起通過的話，在下一次院\n會的時候通過，一起再送來，這是可以的，所以行政院長當然可以慢，一定要副署，那今天不\n是說所謂委員所談的，一個召委就可以不送出來，這個差很多、意思差很多，今天要談的這個\n憲政理論。","quality":0.831},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:03:14.266000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:03:34.881000+08:00","text":"另外一個，並不是所有的事件都要走覆議案，事實上很多事件都沒有走覆議案，但上次是因\n為國會改革的時候，總統、行政院以及立法院同時都是暫時處分以及釋憲。","quality":0.881},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:03:34.881000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:03:47.649000+08:00","text":"其實很多法案，立\n法院、行政院都可以直接提暫時處分以及釋憲，這樣就沒有這個程序了，這兩條路是不一樣的\n。","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:03:47.830000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:03:48.090000+08:00","text":"院長，不知道我這樣的說明，你懂嗎？懂。","quality":0.533},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-09T16:03:48.090000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T16:03:56.237000+08:00","text":"全場只有我一個在聽你講，你們黨團都沒聽……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:03:56.237000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:03:59.200000+08:00","text":"他們已經聽我講好幾次了，我們都有行前教育。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:03:59.200000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T16:04:06.388000+08:00","text":"我們國家的憲政體制是什麼體制？","quality":0.214},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:04:06.388000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:04:09.972000+08:00","text":"是混合制，也就是有總統制以及內閣制的精神。","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:04:10.692000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:04:13.135000+08:00","text":"所\n謂總統制是什麼？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:04:13.135000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:04:14.697000+08:00","text":"總統是負責國家安全，其他是內閣制。","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:04:15.297000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:04:38.043000+08:00","text":"所以內閣制，我們知道憲法第五十二\n條，行政院是國家最高行政機關，當然他負責整個國家政策，他必須負責，這是內閣制的精神\n，所以行政院院長跟美國的總統一樣，美國是總統制，但它特別設計什麼？","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:04:38.043000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:04:52.352000+08:00","text":"川普對於國會送來\n的法案，他可以把它退回，所謂內閣制就是這樣的精神，他是行政院院長，這件法案假如對國\n家有傷害，他可以不副署。","quality":0.782},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:04:55.494000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:05:11.801000+08:00","text":"我們今天看，你們連召委就可以不送出來，院長在憲政體制上，內\n閣制所設計的，當然他必須、一定要副署，但是他要什麼時候副署？","quality":0.808},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:05:12.401000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:05:19.526000+08:00","text":"他在適當時間一定會副署\n，所以各位放心，不會違憲的，今天我要講這個道理。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:05:21.847000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:05:47.557000+08:00","text":"今天其他的，我們要談的就是，關於林思銘，你今天所談的話，坦白講，你是學法的人，你\n也是老實人，但不好意思，良禽擇木而棲，你跑到國民黨去的時候，你必須替國民黨亂講話，\n將來你的律師執照，人家找律師不敢找你。","quality":0.655},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:05:54.445000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:05:54.726000+08:00","text":"良禽擇木而棲，你應該到民進黨來啊！","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:05:54.726000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:06:00.941000+08:00","text":"民進黨的好\n處就是從來不會說謊。","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"蔡委員易餘","start":"2025-01-09T16:06:00.941000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T16:06:02.602000+08:00","text":"起義來歸，裝熟。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:06:02.602000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:06:27.735000+08:00","text":"包括那天小牛也是一樣，人模人樣地，牛煦庭留英的，也是倫敦政經學院碩士，而國\n民黨在害他，叫他來講什麼警察人員人事條例，他照稿唸得很快，因為他實在是很不好意思，\n這會害死民族幼苗。","quality":0.577},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:06:28.922000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:06:35.487000+08:00","text":"所以國民黨整個黨在思維上要重新思考，你們這個黨已經一百多年，淪落至此！","quality":0.781},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:06:37.889000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:06:41.412000+08:00","text":"到現在還活\n著我都覺得是奇蹟。","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:06:41.412000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:06:44.674000+08:00","text":"但是各位不要擔心，很快會走入歷史焚化爐！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:06:48.577000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:06:52.740000+08:00","text":"很快走入歷史焚化爐，化成\n協 23\n一股輕煙消失了，假如在這樣的情形底下。","quality":0.517},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:06:54.227000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:07:00.714000+08:00","text":"今天我不是用這個機會在揶揄國民黨，我講的是實\n情，良藥苦口！","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:07:00.714000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T16:07:01.715000+08:00","text":"良藥苦口。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:07:01.715000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:07:04.158000+08:00","text":"你是好人哪！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:07:06.741000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:07:23.752000+08:00","text":"包括吳春城也是一樣，但是他聽得懂我講的話，他是值得 respect 的人，因為他講他的壯世代\n法案，他來找我，我說我一半的時間在床上臥病，但是我能夠下床的時候我一定找你。","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:07:24.152000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:07:28.895000+08:00","text":"他來跟\n我談，我很仔細聽，他講得很好，而且他是很理性、可以討論的啦！","quality":0.607},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:07:31.057000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:07:33.899000+08:00","text":"這個法應該怎麼修我們比\n較能完善，而且可以 run。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:07:33.999000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:07:36.541000+08:00","text":"所以那天大家一起照相嘛！","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:07:37.501000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:07:41.203000+08:00","text":"這就是立法院、國會的政治生態。","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:07:41.203000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:07:59.655000+08:00","text":"但是吳\n春城委員比較可惜，他過去是媒體人，政治他不是很熟悉，包括立法院的遊戲規則，乃至於法\n案內容，包括職權行使法等等，包括憲政問題，包括攻防的問題，他是說來立法院每天像什麼\n？","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:07:59.655000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:08:00.816000+08:00","text":"你說來立法院每天像……","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2025-01-09T16:08:00.816000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T16:08:06.137000+08:00","text":"高手雲集。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:08:06.137000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:08:07.558000+08:00","text":"沒有，你說來立法院天天好像……","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"吳委員春城","start":"2025-01-09T16:08:07.878000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:08:09.498000+08:00","text":"像暴風雨啦！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:08:09.498000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T16:08:11.039000+08:00","text":"暴風雨啊？對啊！","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:08:11.039000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:08:12.660000+08:00","text":"但是你可以在暴風雨中找到一點寧靜。","quality":0.688},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:08:14.720000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:08:22.163000+08:00","text":"立法院不是暴風雨，立法院裡面都是牛鬼蛇神\n，但是哪一個講真話，你看對面那一組就知道了！","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:08:23.184000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:08:37.006000+08:00","text":"對面這一組像吳思瑤、蔡易餘、李坤城，你\n看這個法相多莊嚴啊，不會像傅崐萁那樣青面獠牙。","quality":0.541},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:08:38.428000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:08:58.326000+08:00","text":"然後今天我要解密，到最後我要講一些話，這些話我都跟傅崐萁講過，我們今天所有事情都\n要解決，甚至簽下朝野協商結論，你怕 1 月 16 日太急，我們簽 1 月 14 日給你，朝野協商結論\n由院長來宣讀。","quality":0.773},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:08:59.386000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:09:01.007000+08:00","text":"總預算如期要怎麼如期，我教大家，不是寫一個日期就能如期。","quality":0.44},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:09:02.308000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:09:12.987000+08:00","text":"周萬來秘書長\n和議事處處長就知道，這沒那麼簡單，大家天天都要「拚」，協商到晚上 12 點也在協商，因為\n要趕進度嘛！","quality":0.622},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:09:13.808000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:09:22.992000+08:00","text":"這個東西是一個技術性問題，假如不懂的話，我們桂茗很清楚……","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:09:23.672000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:09:27.674000+08:00","text":"他就是負責預算的，是我們的預算中心主任……","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:09:29.295000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:09:34.620000+08:00","text":"這是很專業的，所以大家要有誠意把這個問題解決。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:09:34.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:10:01.321000+08:00","text":"我也跟傅崐萁講說，第一個，哪\n一天要休會，你講就算數，16 日就 16 日，把所有的都完成，包括選罷法「加一」，進行表決就\n好了，「加二」也可以；覆議案哪一天處理寫清楚，14 日也可以；包括總預算要怎麼完成，包\n括前瞻，包括台電追加預算。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:10:01.641000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:10:07.923000+08:00","text":"但是有一點我們之間有差異，所以他不敢來面對我，他說他要回\n去問一下。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:10:09.524000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:10:30.582000+08:00","text":"我說我只有要求一點，潛艦預算一定要讓它過，不能有任何干擾，這個東西假如你\n們沒有答應，我很難面對我們黨主席，也就是很難面對總統，所以假如這個沒有答應的話，有\n可能破局，就是這個問題而已。","quality":0.829},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:10:30.742000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:10:36.164000+08:00","text":"他說他去溝通，在他去溝通之後，我打電話給他，他就藏起來\n，「棄保潛逃」！","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:10:38.765000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:10:39.065000+08:00","text":"很奇怪！","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:10:39.625000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:10:44.448000+08:00","text":"所以大家自己想一想，潛艦這個東西何其重要，保衛國家！","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:10:45.668000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:10:52.072000+08:00","text":"假如國民黨把它弄不見的話，各\n位，民意的反彈會多大？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:10:52.872000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:10:58.255000+08:00","text":"所以希望國民黨在這些地方能夠突破，這樣什麼都會迎刃而解。","quality":0.808},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:11:00.056000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:11:13.650000+08:00","text":"我以\n協 24\n上講的話非常誠懇，我們都可以簽下來，16 日就 16 日，都如期完成；覆議案簽 14 日沒有關係\n。","quality":0.694},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:11:14.530000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:11:16.890000+08:00","text":"朝野協商結論唸過了還能不遵守嗎？","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:11:17.150000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:11:17.970000+08:00","text":"不可能的事情嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:11:18.751000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:11:23.071000+08:00","text":"總預算如期完成，但是總預算要加場\n審查，包括前瞻那個都要。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:11:23.411000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:11:43.657000+08:00","text":"院長，我知道你很關心總預算、前瞻和追加預算，所以你每次都有\n提出來，但我今天就是說，這裡面有個「眉角」在，那個很繁雜，所以那時候蘇嘉全院長常常\n跟我坐到晚上 12 點，上個會期 7 月 12 日，我們也是在這個地方坐到晚上 12 點。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:11:43.657000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:11:53.443000+08:00","text":"所以這些東西都沒問題，包括選罷法加一、加二都沒有問題，反正都要釋憲了，我們\n不會打架嘛！","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:11:54.604000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:11:56.725000+08:00","text":"從此以後立法院都不打架了嘛！","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:11:57.706000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:12:08.195000+08:00","text":"我們重新來建立、重塑一個新的文化，讓韓院長\n罪人變成民主英雄，好不好？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:12:08.335000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:12:13.199000+08:00","text":"讓韓院長得到應該得到的尊重（respect）。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:12:13.319000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:12:18.003000+08:00","text":"這是我一直在想的，朝\n野和解確實很重要，好不好？","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:12:18.624000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:12:22.247000+08:00","text":"所以以上只有那一點，大家再回去想一想，不然的話……","quality":0.619},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:12:24.869000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:12:26.451000+08:00","text":"等一下，我再 1 分鐘……","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:12:28.432000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:12:55.882000+08:00","text":"我可以講 4 個小時，但是我很簡短地講，因為我們團隊都很清楚，我常常接受他們的\n挑戰，所以我講話也不必帶稿，我就這麼講得很清楚，就是大家想一想，庖丁解牛才能夠迎刃\n而解，這個東西「眉角」處理好，我們明天大家簽一簽。","quality":0.811},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:12:56.062000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:13:08.690000+08:00","text":"我們請韓院長去勸傅崐萁總召，他很\n尊重你的，你也跟你們的黨主席朱主席講一下，這個是對大家好啊！","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:13:08.850000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:13:19.715000+08:00","text":"假如破局的話，我不知道\n國民黨能不能承擔這種國家，保衛國家都不要了？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:13:20.435000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:13:21.135000+08:00","text":"連潛艦都不要了？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:13:21.455000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:13:23.376000+08:00","text":"我相信國民黨很難承擔。","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:13:23.736000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:13:24.897000+08:00","text":"以上是忠言啊！","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:13:26.258000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:13:27.138000+08:00","text":"希望你們不要逆耳。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2025-01-09T16:13:28.138000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:13:29.819000+08:00","text":"謝謝各位，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-09T16:13:29.819000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:13:33.921000+08:00","text":"謝謝您，42 分鐘，只有我最專心聽你的，真的！","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-09T16:13:34.061000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:13:36.062000+08:00","text":"我憑良心講，我眼睛都看著你的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-09T16:13:38.456000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:14:00.470000+08:00","text":"謝謝大家，我本來想，上次蔡易餘書記長講完後，我也很感慨，希望朝野協商，大家把自己\n意見表達完畢，黨團立場顧到以後，黨團的理想性，大家能夠達成共識，不要各說各話，其實\n這個話就是我內心所想，總是希望我們花了這麼多時間，肩膀上承擔這麼多責任，總是希望能\n夠往好的方向發展。","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-09T16:14:02.076000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:14:12.203000+08:00","text":"那很抱歉，連續兩次協商，截至目前，還是沒有辦法達成三黨的共識，其\n實我是有點遺憾，因為剛才一度曙光已經露出來。","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-09T16:14:13.124000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:14:17.127000+08:00","text":"本案沒有獲得共識，我們就提送院會依議事\n規定來處理……","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-01-09T16:14:17.127000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T16:14:18.127000+08:00","text":"等一下、等一下，沒有、沒有……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-09T16:14:17.567000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-01-09T16:14:18.468000+08:00","text":"我們現在散會。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-01-09T16:14:18.968000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-01-09T16:14:20.110857+08:00","text":"散會（16 時 14 分）","quality":0.25}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}