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總裁我可以不可以講說它就是未來的數位新台幣是 可以 委員講得沒有錯就數位新台幣 對嘛是 我們央行的一個就是我們希望就是把它的一個那個政策面就是定格在這個地方是 沒有錯 那定格在這個地方的時候你希望就是說它會期待"},{"start":58.238,"end":68.254,"text":"以後的這個就是我們的那個零售支付的一個補充工具嗎是 沒有錯就是類似支付寶的一個概念對啦 應該是 對 對"},{"start":71.512,"end":74.073,"text":"所以我們這次現金的改版也有這樣的意思現金你們還是沒辦法取代的電子支付你還是沒辦法取代現金的"},{"start":93.301,"end":110.855,"text":"所以我們就說這一次的改版每一個國家的改版他也不會說因為現在的電子資物很發達所以他就不要獻金了 不是反而是應該要考量到我們的弱勢群體金融沒有普及的地方還有老年人他的數位的知識不足的"},{"start":114.881,"end":136.307,"text":"所以總裁 所以你有分階段那你CPTC已經在進行了這個策略已經在進行了那就是說已經在規劃了那你的新台幣還要再改版事實上也延續就是郭委員剛才質詢的內容他也必須要改版因為太久的時間了"},{"start":137.967,"end":154.621,"text":"那太久的时间还有就是说当今的环境其实大家在使用货币的习惯已经慢慢做了很大很大的一个改变不管是大钞还是这个就是说一百元有时候我们连那个纸那个就是铜板"},{"start":155.862,"end":159.263,"text":"不常用的時候還會有點搞錯不過銅板我們這一次不改版銅板這一次不改版為什麼不改版因為銅板第一個它面額小這是第一個第二個它改版了以後它的成本反而超過沒有改版的效益沒有改版的效益對 因為它慢慢的會淘汰掉"},{"start":182.335,"end":210.845,"text":"他慢慢會淘汰掉所以說我們可是如果我們就是在看全世界不管是歐美不管是日本的話他們的銅板他們其實還是一個非常流行的貨幣他還是有在流通但是他也沒有改版所以鄰近的國家他們基本上一般國家主要國家他在改版都是紙鈔沒有涉及到銅板"},{"start":212.836,"end":227.115,"text":"那我们很清楚就是说CPTC它可能是未来现今的一个数位化的替代品也可能是我们支付体系的一个改革最重要的工具那它跟比特币呢"},{"start":227.715,"end":247.34,"text":"它跟比特幣如果我做這樣子的一個比較的話 仲裁當然就是說你這一個CPTC是一個法定的貨幣它得到了國家的一個支持那它可以集中管理那它也是安全性是比較高的那它價值也是穩定"},{"start":248.4,"end":264.165,"text":"那日常的支付還有跨境的交易其實就是政府的資金的分配都是穩定的那成本也比較低那尤其是國內的一個交易那你認為就是說如果這兩個貨幣的話"},{"start":268.479,"end":273.484,"text":"你還可以突顯你的CBDC更優勢的地方在哪裡那當然第一個我想"},{"start":279.181,"end":295.995,"text":"央行的數位貨幣它在支付方面它是沒有問題的但是比特幣因為價格波動太大它沒有以前一開始的時候就說比特幣就是要來當支付它是一個虛擬的資產"},{"start":301.34,"end":308.806,"text":"它不是貨幣但是它一開始發展的時候它是想要變成一個支付的工具但是從它開始2008、2009一直到現在它都沒有實現也就是說它沒辦法因為它被太多人操縱了因為它基本上而且它也人為操縱第二個它也會洗錢什麼的之類的這些所以比特幣基本上當初就是說希望它作為一個支付的工具到目前為止都沒有"},{"start":331.262,"end":354.802,"text":"谢谢总裁我们再拉回来核心消费者的物价指数其实整体来讲都算是稳定可是通膨的风险跟利率政策的一个平衡这也考验着央行在整个政策面上如何的去执行我先用国泰金在10月份他有一个国民经济的一个信心调查这个民调里头"},{"start":355.462,"end":375.153,"text":"有六成的民眾認為物價偏高六成的民眾認為物價偏高總裁你有沒有這樣的感覺委員如果說這麼說的話我可以這麼說就是說基本上低所得的民眾"},{"start":376.434,"end":398.534,"text":"会觉得说我们的物价偏高是低所得那为什么说低所得的会比较认为物价会偏高因为低所得者呢他大部分的他大部分的收入来源呢很大一部分就是都是在那个什么民生用品方面没有错那民生的话那这个是波动是比较大"},{"start":400.509,"end":419.752,"text":"可是這個體感通膨已經衝擊到就是說我們的壽星家庭還有中產階級的家庭他的感受會比較大中產家庭其實這個體感通膨也影響到了因為我們可以期他可能會越來越貴所以有很多人"},{"start":420.833,"end":445.379,"text":"其實是沒什麼改善你看在家裡頭開火的人也越來越多了所以我也不問你說蚵仔蒸那個很多錢因為每一個區域性不同可是可預期就是我們感受到市場其實這個物價指數就是說像你講的這個吃的民生的吃的 吃新的是一直都起來"},{"start":446.179,"end":460.059,"text":"是 没有错最近就是说在很多房间的一个民调他认为央行是双杀我们的首购主还有换屋主怎么讲"},{"start":462.923,"end":466.348,"text":"沒有啦 總裁 你就說沒有啦我聽你這個笑聲就有點心虛啦因為你在笑 你不會喔如果你是很有自信 你會笑到那麼大聲你現在笑到小聲小聲這個是有點壯膽"},{"start":480.945,"end":494.573,"text":"有沒有這樣的一個意味沒有 我覺得我們的選擇信用管制你看看我們選擇信用管制我們都強調我們的信用資源要給所購足"},{"start":495.734,"end":500.958,"text":"要給都耕者 要給社會住宅的我講一個案例給你聽這一家人本來是要換房子"},{"start":513.528,"end":530.524,"text":"结果他因为你的豪宅贷款的一个限制结果被逼上了节颅这个是小市民的心声他投到我的粉专上头来我跟委员报告事实上有一些"},{"start":531.866,"end":536.553,"text":"事實上他都認為就是說他是我們選擇信用管制的一個被我們選擇信用管制到了事實上我們有很多的case去了解事實上不是"},{"start":547.77,"end":552.815,"text":"所以大家都認為他借不到錢是因為中央銀行的關係是央行卡死了啊為什麼不是炒房是換屋結果被豪宅線卡死了呢我今天買一個4500萬的房子就是說我在台南我預約了一個3800萬的地售屋"},{"start":570.672,"end":597.25,"text":"結果交屋的時候銀行的建價是四千兩百萬結果被認為是豪宅那貸款從原來的預期的七成降為三成況且這個三成還是企業價是本來的三千八百萬的企業價那你看來去就差了一千一百四十萬那資金的切口就變成一千五百萬"},{"start":598.11,"end":625.916,"text":"你想這麼差大的一個差異誰有這麼大的一筆錢可是如果你讓我慢慢繳的時候我是買得起這個3800萬的房子所以你的當然就是被你卡死了不過我跟委員報告事實上建商跟我們的預購房屋的消費者他們之間也有一個定型化契約"},{"start":627.304,"end":636.338,"text":"那個定型化契約裡面他就有定的就是說在不可規則的因素之下如果說他的貸款跟他的貸款跟他房子要購物的"},{"start":643.388,"end":661.16,"text":"你如果把它講到這個定型業那個定型性的一個企業這個是另外那我來跟你討論的就是你豪宅的認定標準已經十幾年你根本都沒有調整那你那個央行的標準脫節了這麼久你看你在101年的時候"},{"start":666.277,"end":691.193,"text":"你要不要让我讲好 我能讲所以就是说我希望也建议你是不是这个豪宅在台北市我们可以调整为9000万是不然你看整个台北市每一个人都是住豪宅怎么会是这个样子呢少数人不住豪宅绝大部分的人在台北市都住豪宅因为都超过7000万是"},{"start":692.654,"end":709.099,"text":"那新北市我們調整為七千五百萬其他的縣市是不是可以調整為五千五百萬你拿回去做參考好不好美人的建立我們拿回去參考好不好我想這個已經造成名焰相當深那我們還是要充分的研究謝謝總裁 謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":682,"blocks":[["賴委員惠員：（10時1分）謝謝主席。有請央行總裁。"],["主席：好，請楊總裁。"],["賴委員惠員：楊總裁早安。"],["楊總裁金龍：賴委員早。"],["賴委員惠員：我想從數位貨幣到選擇性的信用管制，今天跟你探討這幾個議題。"],["楊總裁金龍：好。"],["賴委員惠員：有關CBDC，總裁，我可不可以講它就是未來數位新臺幣，我可以這樣講嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：可以，委員講的沒有錯，就是數位新臺幣啊！"],["賴委員惠員：對嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["賴委員惠員：央行把政策面就是定格在這個地方？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯，委員講得不錯。"],["賴委員惠員：定格在這個地方的時候，你希望它會取代以後零售支付的補充工具嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["賴委員惠員：就是類似支付寶的一個概念？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，應該是。"],["賴委員惠員：如果比較老的人要怎麼辦？像是我們鄉下的長輩怎麼辦？"],["楊總裁金龍：委員考慮得很周到，事實上我們這一次現金改版也有這樣的意思，現金還是沒辦法取代的，電子支付還是沒辦法取代現金的。所以我們這一次要改版，每一個國家的改版也不會是因為現在電子支付很發達，所以就不要現金了，不是！反而應該要考量到我們的弱勢群體，還有金融沒有普及的地方，還有就是老年人的數位知識不足的。"],["賴委員惠員：總裁，所以你有分階段嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：那當然！"],["賴委員惠員：CBDC已經在進行了嘛？這個策略已經在進行了？"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["賴委員惠員：已經在規劃了？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["賴委員惠員：所以你的新臺幣還要再改版嘛？"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["賴委員惠員：事實上也延續郭委員剛才質詢的內容，它也必須要改版，因為太久的時間了。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["賴委員惠員：已經太久的時間了，還有當今的環境，其實大家在使用貨幣的習慣已經慢慢做了很大的改變，不管是大鈔還是100元，有時候銅板不常用的時候還會有點搞錯了。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，不過銅板這一次不改版。"],["賴委員惠員：銅板這一次不改版？為什麼不改版？"],["楊總裁金龍：因為銅板第一個，面額小；第二個，它改版了以後，成本反而超過……沒有改版的效益。"],["賴委員惠員：沒有改版的效益？"],["楊總裁金龍：它慢慢會淘汰掉。"],["賴委員惠員：它慢慢會淘汰掉？"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["賴委員惠員：可是我們看全世界，不管是歐美、日本，他們的銅板其實還是非常流通的貨幣。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，它還是有在流通，但是它也沒有改版。"],["賴委員惠員：它也沒有改版？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，它也沒有改版。"],["賴委員惠員：所以鄰近的國家基本上就是……"],["楊總裁金龍：一般國家改版的都是紙鈔，沒有涉及到銅板。"],["賴委員惠員：好，我們很清楚，CBDC未來可能是現金的數位化替代品……"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒有錯。"],["賴委員惠員：也可能是支付體系改革最重要的工具。它跟比特幣，如果我這樣比較……當然，總裁說CBDC是一個法定貨幣，得到了國家的支持。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒有錯。"],["賴委員惠員：它可以集中管理。也是安全性比較高的。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒有錯。"],["賴委員惠員：它的價值也穩定，日常的支付還有跨境的交易及政府資金的分配都是穩定的，成本也比較低，尤其是國內的交易。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["賴委員惠員：你認為如果這兩個貨幣相較，還可以凸顯CBDC更優勢的地方在哪裡？"],["楊總裁金龍：當然。第一個，因為央行的數位貨幣在支付方面是沒有問題的，但是比特幣的價格波動太大。以前一開始的時候就說比特幣是要當作支付，而它是虛擬的資產，不是貨幣。它一開始發展的時候是想要變成一個支付的工具，但是它從2008、2009開始一直到現在都沒有實現，也就是它沒辦法成為……"],["賴委員惠員：因為它被太多人操縱了。因為它基本上就是……"],["楊總裁金龍：對，它會被人為操縱，第二個，它也會被用來洗錢之類的。基本上，當初希望比特幣作為一個支付的工具，到目前為止都沒有實現。"],["賴委員惠員：謝謝總裁。我們再拉回來談核心消費者的物價指數，其實整體來講都算是穩定，可是通膨的風險跟利率政策的平衡，也考驗著央行在整個政策面上如何執行。我先用國泰金10月份的國民經濟信心調查，在這個民調裡頭有六成的民眾認為物價偏高，你有沒有這樣的感覺？"],["楊總裁金龍：我可以這麼說，基本上，第一個，低所得的民眾會覺得我們的物價偏高，為什麼低所得的比較會認為物價偏高？因為低所得者收入來源有很大一部分都是用在民生用品方面。"],["賴委員惠員：沒有錯，當然。"],["楊總裁金龍：民生用品的波動比較大。"],["賴委員惠員：可是這個體感通膨已經衝擊到受薪家庭，還有中產階級家庭。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有錯，低所得者的感受會比較大。"],["賴委員惠員：對，其實這個體感通膨也影響到中產家庭了，因為我們可預期它可能會越來越貴，所以有很多人其實不太敢花錢，你看在家裡開伙的人也越來越多了。我不問你蚵仔煎一份多少錢，因為每一個區域不同……"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["賴委員惠員：可是我們感受到物價指數就像你講的，吃的、民生用品都一直漲上來了。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["賴委員惠員：最近很多坊間的民調認為央行是雙殺首購族還有換屋族，怎麼講呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，首購族不會啊！"],["賴委員惠員：總裁一定會說沒有，我聽你的笑聲就是有點心虛。"],["楊總裁金龍：不會！"],["賴委員惠員：因為你在笑，如果是很有自信，你會笑得比較大聲，你現在笑得小小聲，就是有點壯膽。"],["楊總裁金龍：不會！我還是那麼大聲。"],["賴委員惠員：有沒有這樣的意味？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有！你看看我們的選擇信用管制都強調我們的信用資源要給首購族、要給都更者、要給社會住宅。我們強調的是這樣，怎麼會壓垮首購族？"],["賴委員惠員：我講一個案例給你聽，這一家人本來是要換房子，因為豪宅貸款的限制，結果被逼上了絕路。這是小市民的心聲，他投到我的粉專。"],["楊總裁金龍：有一些人都認為被我們的選擇性信用管制打擊、管制到了，我們有去了解很多的case，事實上不是……"],["賴委員惠員：不是，我也有很多例子，我覺得是你卡死……"],["楊總裁金龍：大家都認為借不到錢是因為中央銀行的關係……"],["賴委員惠員：是央行卡死了！為什麼不是炒房是換屋，結果被豪宅線卡死了呢？比如在臺南預訂了一個3,800萬的預售屋，結果交屋的時候，銀行鑑價是4,200萬，被認為是豪宅，於是貸款從原來預期的七成降為三成，況且三成還用本來3,800萬的契約價計算，你看來回貸款降到1,140萬，資金缺口變成1,520萬。你想這麼差大的差異，誰有這麼大一筆錢？如果你讓我慢慢繳，我是買得起這個3,800萬的房子，所以這當然就是被你卡死了！"],["楊總裁金龍：事實上，建商跟預購房屋的消費者之間有一個定型化契約，那個定型化契約裡面就有訂定，在不可歸責的因素之下，如果貸款跟房子要過戶……"],["賴委員惠員：你如果把它講到定型化契約，這是另外一個階段……"],["楊總裁金龍：對，它本來就要適用那個……"],["賴委員惠員：而我要來跟你討論的是豪宅的認定標準已經十幾年都沒有調整，央行的標準脫節了這麼久，你看這是你們在101年訂的，我希望也建議你，豪宅在臺北市是不是可以調整為9,000萬？"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["賴委員惠員：不然你看臺北市每一個人都是住豪宅，怎麼會是這樣呢？少數人不住豪宅，絕大部分的人在臺北市都住豪宅，因為都超過7,000萬。新北市調整為7,500萬，其他縣市是不是可以調整為5,500萬？你拿回去參考，好不好？"],["楊總裁金龍：好。委員的建議我們拿回去參考，好不好？"],["賴委員惠員：是。"],["楊總裁金龍：好，謝謝你。"],["賴委員惠員：我想這個已經造成相當深的民怨，你們還是要充分的研究。"],["楊總裁金龍：好。"],["賴委員惠員：謝謝總裁，謝謝主席。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝。"],["主席（李委員彥秀代）：謝謝，賴惠員委員的質詢結束。","接下來請林思銘委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":150,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-4","speakers":["林思銘","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","李坤城","鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","王世堅","陳玉珍","葉元之","謝衣鳯","邱志偉","葛如鈞","羅明才"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2025-10-23"],"gazette_id":"1148901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1148901_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}