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那是電子勞務但是服務這個貨物的部分確實是如同剛剛我們部長講他們並沒有在這邊登記但他是因為貨物進來他是一個平台所以這個部分呢"},{"start":644.908,"end":651.144,"text":"目前來說我們可以看看再跟經濟部再會後再來聯繫怎麼處理不是研究我跟你講消費者保護法第九條"},{"start":652.369,"end":679.418,"text":"很清楚跟你講消費者培訓法第九條現行條文輸入商品或服務之企業經營者視為該商品之設計生產製造者或服務之提供者負本條第七本法第七條的責任就是要負連帶損害賠償的責任所以你如果硬要去給他切割界定他把拼多多他們是平台服務他們不是商品的輸入者這我不能接受啦"},{"start":680.94,"end":685.306,"text":"我看這樣子 現在目前最緊急的就是這個豬瘟所以我們會全面查緝"},{"start":687.082,"end":712.222,"text":"之後查緝同時啊我要求經濟部跟數化部我們研究如何要他限期落地他如果限期不落地登記不納入管制的話那這個平台數化部要求把他讓他下架讓他沒有辦法再做同樣的行為我們盡快會來完整我剛剛有跟你提供幾個法律的他山之石可以攻錯有歐盟有日本有韓國"},{"start":713.51,"end":737.111,"text":"美國為什麼我們要講美國也是這樣要求但是因為美國有50個州他每一個州的法令不一樣所以很難在這邊統一解釋但是原則上也是必須要落地當然啦這些大型的這個網路購物這個平台網路購物的這些商店他可能瞧不起你台灣啊你這個規模太小啊我不要來你這邊落地啊你們沒有法律啊你奈我何啊"},{"start":738.331,"end":765.692,"text":"這個都是不正確的態度啦台灣不是這樣漫無法紀的國家我們會堅持但是我們現在在這方面的法令比西方還有周遭的國家都落後所以這個我非常要求第二個他們這樣之後因為免去非常多的責任成本是減輕的所以他可以用很低的價格來跟你拼價格戰這對台灣的製造商非常不公平"},{"start":766.704,"end":779.942,"text":"台灣的製造商 台灣的實體商店他們是要繳貨物稅 要繳各種稅金還要養員工 還要養店主還要出店主 賺了錢之後還要繳稅結果這些網路購物的這些"},{"start":781.394,"end":805.25,"text":"完全不用負責任然後它相對的成本就低所以就會造成非常多的問題競爭上的不公平我們如果要保護台灣的製造商這也是一個很重要的課題最近一段時間一直在觀測網路上的一個訊息我對於有一家廠商剛剛提到的拼多多那種廣告的手法怎麼有辦法投注那麼大的廣告的"},{"start":806.155,"end":834.322,"text":"能力那表示說他是用低價或是另外一種這個不法的競爭在國內會造成競爭上的不公平那這個部分我覺得我們這整個相關的法律也要來保護合法的廠商才對 中國的商業習慣先用低價把對手都拼倒了人家都關閉了之後我再來想辦法再來拉高價格這他一貫的手法好那我們現在進行剛剛你講的初分的第二個問題居然有人在網路上面發視頻說逃避"},{"start":835.963,"end":845.156,"text":"機場進出的時候的這個手提行李的檢查有人網路上拍視頻在教這個不知道你有沒有看過部長不知道你有沒有看過"},{"start":848.612,"end":875.754,"text":"但是我們現在對高風險區來的手提行李是百分之百的都要經過X光檢查同時有防檢局那邊提高這個開箱的查驗同時有檢疫權在做我們知道有這個規定但是我就跟你講說連網路上都有人做視頻在跟你講說要逃避檢查這個如果涉及到災害防救的過程我們有相關的法律 散佈不實的謠言我們要強力來調查是不是不實我不知道但是就是有這個網路我還可以找出來給你看"},{"start":876.749,"end":902.212,"text":"所以我是跟你講說就是會有少數人他不遵守法令然後還要這樣子惡搞所以你們那個檢查現在當然因為過去陳平日久你嚴格的檢查有人會不耐煩說這個實在是太麻煩但是事情一發生才發生對台灣造成這麼大的損害所以現在應該如果你要求嚴格的檢查國人都會支持的"},{"start":902.861,"end":914.376,"text":"我全力要求因為過去七八年我們嚴守邊境非常的嚴謹一定要更嚴不能放鬆那請莊部長跟陳部長先回座請這個交通部陳部長麻煩請交通部長備詢"},{"start":923.717,"end":950.204,"text":"院長跟部長謝謝你們昨天來這個國道1號的五股交流道北出閘道進到新莊這邊來的這個等於是啟用昨天下午四點啟用很辛苦但是我還是有其他交通要求我們現在新北市政府急於要去定案這個泰山到板橋的捷運輕軌其中我們新莊後港跟西勝20個里沒有捷運"},{"start":951.705,"end":959.429,"text":"這裡有十幾萬人口本席過去曾經對前交通部長要求請他評估作為一個後港犧牲的支線現在台北新北市政府完全不願意我拜託你要定案的時候一定要留下預留的總統他不要將來別的市長的時候至少我們還有一個資格的資金如果你是定案一個完全沒有一個可以接口的話那這個我們不能容許後港跟犧牲十萬居民會對這個"},{"start":989.992,"end":990.012,"text":"好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":2,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（14時31分）主席，麻煩請行政院卓院長，還有財政部莊部長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長、財政部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：吳委員好。"],["吳委員秉叡：院長好、部長好，辛苦了。"],["卓院長榮泰：不會。"],["吳委員秉叡：最近為了各種天災，包括非洲豬瘟要如何趕快清零，解決問題，費了很大的力氣，團隊也很辛苦。"],["卓院長榮泰：大家通力合作，我們來面對共同的挑戰。"],["吳委員秉叡：但是有人說非洲豬瘟有各種管道會傳進來臺灣，除了從疫區回來的旅客所攜帶的個人行李，另外還有一個很大的可能性，就是從外國的小包裹郵件寄進來。依照中華民國的法律消費者保護法，我們如果在一般的實體店面買到一個商品，結果這個商品對人體造成危害，譬如買一個充電器結果爆炸，把我的手炸斷了，這個在法律上叫「加害給付」，依照消費者保護法所該求償的對象，除了賣東西的店家，還有製造商，甚至有負責任的廣告商廣告這個商品，都有可能會要進到損害賠償的範圍。不過現在對於這些網購電商，目前臺灣最大的三間有淘寶、蝦皮，還有韓國的酷澎，這些在臺灣都沒有實體的落地，也就是我們的消費者如果在網路上看到一個淘寶的中國商品，用網路下單後，小包裹寄過來臺灣就可以領到了，沒有下地。","請教院長，我們要來了解，如果這個商品對人體發生了危害，舉剛剛那個例子，或是說寄進來的食品裡面是有非洲豬瘟的病毒，結果造成這麼大的損害，要向誰求償？賣東西給你的製造商大部分在中國，賣東西給你的通路淘寶，在臺灣沒有落地，請問要向誰求償呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，如果沒有落地的話，真的是求償無門，所以對於剛剛委員所說的這幾家網路通路商，包括蝦皮跟酷澎，目前都有分公司或是直接的投資商有在臺灣落地，但是淘寶跟現在漫天廣告的所謂拼多多，目前是完全沒有落地。"],["吳委員秉叡：就是要跟你講，現在拼多多因為中國低價商品內捲的關係，大量製造、傾銷全世界，對全世界造成非常大的傷害，它現在還在網路上做英文廣告，說它要獎勵、便宜幾百億幾百億，讓拼多多的商品可以到全世界去。","我們來看看全世界其他的國家，大部分的國家是怎麼處理？歐盟規定要有落地，而且要代扣稅，否則的話，這個東西不可以進到歐盟的領域裡面，這是最嚴格的，一定要這樣實施，然後還要稅的代扣都一起處理，這個當然需要很強的行政分工，包括所有商品的追蹤、檢驗都要有，但是這有一個好處，誰賣東西給我，將來出了問題，誰該負責任跑不掉，這是歐盟的狀況。看看日本，日本接近歐盟，比歐盟稍微慢一點，但是目前進行也是照這樣的狀況。最後再講隔壁的韓國，韓國現在也要求，從今年開始實施去的電商一定要落地，網路購物商一定要落地，是不是買的人扣稅，那是另外一回事，但是電商一定要落地。","所以從剛剛跟我的對話，院長是非常同意這些網路電商必須要落地吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，納入管理。"],["吳委員秉叡：請問你要如何做？部長，你認為應該要如何做？你們行政團隊如何落實？"],["卓院長榮泰：先請龔部長。"],["吳委員秉叡：請經濟部部長。"],["主席：時間暫停。吳委員請教一下，要不要請農業部跟數位部備詢？"],["吳委員秉叡：沒有，我現在在問電商的事情，農業部只是一個商品而已，你們其他部長先請回。"],["主席：好，兩位部長請回，農業部、數位部請回。時間繼續。"],["吳委員秉叡：你如何要求讓它落地呢？"],["龔部長明鑫：因為我們現在還不允許中國在我們這邊經營電商，所以……"],["吳委員秉叡：問題是淘寶、拼多多，我們臺灣人一直買，你不允許它經營電商，它還是一直進來啊，這不是掩耳盜鈴嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：現在淘寶只能在我們這邊發類似廣告傳單這樣子，不能經營平臺買賣。"],["吳委員秉叡：院長，依社會的經驗，淘寶、拼多多的商品不停地進到臺灣啊，光這幾個月就幾萬件從中國過來的小型包裹，結果我們經濟部龔部長說不能經營電商，所以這個不算，這不算嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是不算，我們現在也很積極，尤其是現在這個時間點……"],["吳委員秉叡：所以我問說如何落實？你剛剛講的必須落地啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：違法的肉品不能進來，而在這個時候，我們更要強力來查緝，全面……"],["龔部長明鑫：的確就是……"],["吳委員秉叡：我現在講的不是只有肉品啦。"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["龔部長明鑫：是、是、是，報告委員……"],["吳委員秉叡：譬如我剛剛講的充電寶，那不是肉品，但是有可能對人身造成傷害，是造成加害給付的貨品。我是舉這個例子，如果不落地，部長，你能夠保證拼多多跟淘寶網買的東西不能進來？不然的話，你說它不經營電商，臺灣不承認，結果每天這麼多的包裹一直進來，那到底算什麼？如果照你這樣的邏輯，那個算什麼？"],["龔部長明鑫：因為現在消費者也不一定只跟中國買，他跟全世界的平臺都在買，如果要求所有的……"],["吳委員秉叡：是啊，如果你的邏輯是這樣講的話，財政部的海關是不是要把所有中國來的沒有落地電商的這些包裹，全部都要退運，不准它進來啊？照經濟部部長講的是這樣啊，它不可以在這裡經營啊！當然不是這樣嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我看我們分三個層次：第一個，現在就是全面查緝這些違規違法的。第二個，沒有在這裡落地的，我剛剛說的，除了蝦皮跟酷澎之外，淘寶跟拼多多，我們是不是要求它必須限期完成法律上的要求，它一定會繞道來落地，如果它想做的話，如果繞道符合我們的法規，那至少納管，如果限期連這個都不行，那我們就要下更大的力道了。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以我今天就是要問你，你如何準備落實這件事情？因為不是只有光落地，我們政府應該要考量一個足夠的資本額，我舉個例子，我落地拿個100萬臺幣來臺灣註冊……"],["卓院長榮泰：一定要相符，一定要和他營業的項目、範圍相符。"],["吳委員秉叡：假設他一年做100億臺幣的生意，他在臺灣的分公司資本額至少也要10億，這樣萬一發生損害的時候，你才有辦法要求損害賠償啊！才有辦法去求償啊！所以我現在除了要求落地之外，落地的時候必須要有足夠負擔責任的資本額作為擔保，如果不用資本額的方式，那是不是要提供其他的擔保，或簡單講，他要不要買保險？"],["卓院長榮泰：我了解委員的意思，就是他在這裡的商業行為，必須有為以後發生的各種責任負擔得起的資力才可以。"],["吳委員秉叡：因為我一開始開宗明義就跟你講，中華民國是有消費者保護法的，行政院有義務去執行消費者保護法，消費者保護法對於實體也好、通路也好，商品如果對於消費者構成損害，製造商跟經銷商是要負連帶損害賠償責任的，這法有明文啊！你如果放任淘寶、拼多多這一類的電商不來臺灣落地，但是拼命寄小包裹進來，消費者如果發生要求償的狀況，照目前的法律，只能去中國告他耶！中國的製造商你也找不到，中國大型的網購、中國的法院會理你嗎？你認為中國會這樣執行法律嗎？部長，你怎麼講？怎麼落實？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想這個部分，第一個在電子勞務的部分做稅籍登記已經非常明確……"],["吳委員秉叡：那個是服務啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：對，但是貨物的部分確實如同剛剛龔部長講的，他們並沒有在這邊登記，他是因為貨物進來，是一個平台，所以這個部分，目前來說，我們看看會後再跟經濟部聯繫怎麼處理。"],["吳委員秉叡：不是研究，我跟你講消費者保護法第九條現行條文規定得很清楚：「輸入商品或服務之企業經營者，視為該商品之設計、生產、製造者或服務之提供者，負本法第七條之製造者責任。」就是要負連帶損害賠償責任，所以你如果硬要去切割、界定淘寶、拼多多都是平台服務，他們不是商品的輸入者，這我不能接受啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我看這樣子，因為現在最緊急的就是豬瘟，所以我們會全面查緝，查緝的同時，我要求經濟部和數發部研究如何要他們限期落地，如果限期不落地登記，不納入管制的話，那這個平台，數發部要讓它下架，讓它沒有辦法再做同樣的行為，我們會儘快來完成這個工作。"],["吳委員秉叡：我剛剛有提供幾個法域的他山之石可以攻錯，有歐盟、有日本、有韓國，為什麼我沒有講美國也是這樣要求？因為美國有50個州，每一個州的法令不一樣，所以很難在這邊統一解釋，但是原則上也是必須要落地。當然這些大型的網路購物平台、網路商店可能瞧不起你臺灣，說你規模太小，我不要來你這邊落地啊！你們沒有法律，你奈我何？這都是不正確的態度。"],["卓院長榮泰：臺灣不是這樣漫無法紀的國家，我們會堅持。"],["吳委員秉叡：但是我們現在在這一方面的法令比西方還有周遭國家都落後。"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以這一點我非常要求。第二、他們這樣之後，因為免去非常多的責任，成本是減輕的，所以可以用很低的價格來跟你拼價格戰，這對臺灣的製造商非常的不公平。臺灣的製造商、臺灣的實體商店要繳貨物稅等各種稅金，還要養員工，還要出店租，賺了錢之後還要繳稅，結果這些網路商店完全不用負責任，然後相對的成本又低，就會造成非常多的問題。"],["卓院長榮泰：競爭上的不公平，最近……"],["吳委員秉叡：我們要如何保護臺灣的製造商，這也是一個很重要的課題。"],["卓院長榮泰：最近一段時間，我們一直在觀測網路上的一個訊息，我對於有一家廠商，就是剛剛提到的拼多多，它那種廣告的手法，怎麼有辦法投注那麼大的廣告能力，表示它是用低價或利用一種不法的競爭，在國內會造成競爭上的不公平，這個部分，我覺得我們相關的法律也要來保護合法的廠商才對。"],["吳委員秉叡：中國的商業習慣是先用低價把對手都拼倒了，人家都關閉了之後，他再來想辦法拉高價格，這是他一貫的手法。","再來討論剛剛提到的豬瘟的第二個問題，居然有人在網路上面發出逃避機場進出時手提行李檢查的視頻，有人網路上拍視頻在教這個耶！不知道你有沒有看過？部長，不知道你有沒有看過？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們現在對高風險區來的手提行李是百分之百地都要經過X光檢查，同時由防檢局那邊提高開箱的查驗，同時有檢疫犬在做……"],["吳委員秉叡：我們知道有這個規定，但是我就跟你講，連網路上都有人做視頻在跟你講要怎麼逃避檢查。"],["卓院長榮泰：這個如果涉及到災害防救的過程，我們有相關的法律，散布不實謠言，我想我們要強力……"],["吳委員秉叡：是不是不實我不知道，但網路就是有這個，我還可以找出來給你看。我跟你講，就是會有少數人不遵守法令，然後還要這樣子惡搞，所以你們那個檢查，因為過去承平日久，你嚴格的檢查，有人會不耐煩說這個實在是太麻煩，但是事情一發生對臺灣造成這麼大的損害，所以現在如果你要求嚴格檢查，國人都會支持的。"],["卓院長榮泰：我全力要求，因為過去7、8年我們嚴守邊境，非常嚴謹，一定要更嚴，不能放鬆。"],["吳委員秉叡：請莊部長跟陳部長先回座，請交通部陳部長。"],["主席：麻煩請交通部部長備詢。"],["吳委員秉叡：院長跟部長，謝謝你們昨天來參加國道1號五股交流道進到新莊的北出匝道的啟用，昨天下午4點啟用，很辛苦，但我還是有其他的交通要求，現在新北市政府急於要定案泰板（泰山到板橋）的捷運輕軌，其中新莊後港跟西盛有20個里沒有捷運，這裡有十幾萬人口。本席過去曾經對前任交通部長要求，請他評估做一個後港西盛支線，現在新北市政府完全不理我們！我拜託你要定案的時候一定要預留窗口，他不要，將來別的市長的時候，至少我們還有延伸的可能性……"],["卓院長榮泰：有一個達到……"],["吳委員秉叡：如果你是定案一個完全沒有可以接軌的，這個我們不能同意喔！"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["吳委員秉叡：後港跟西盛的十萬居民會對政府提出抗議。所以我希望我的這個要求，拜託你一定要接受。"],["陳部長世凱：好，這個我會要求。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：交通部有在做到這一點。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳秉叡委員質詢，謝謝卓院長、相關部會首長備詢。","報告院會，議場二樓旁聽席上，又來了一批臺北市興隆國小的同學們，我們掌聲歡迎各位同學。","接下來請涂權吉委員質詢，林淑芬委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":79,"meet_id":"院會-11-4-6","speakers":["韓國瑜","林俊憲","陳雪生","羅明才","吳秉叡","涂權吉","林淑芬","徐巧芯"],"page_start":23,"meetingDate":["2025-10-28"],"gazette_id":"1148301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148301_00002","1148301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期第6次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1148301_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}