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法務部部長鄭明謙等人主席 中招救援嘉賓報告事項一 宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定二 邀請司法院法務部帥所屬相關單位列席就號召民眾上街對抗司法審判者為妨害司法公正罪之限刑犯進行專題報告並被質詢決定報告及詢討完畢討論事項 並二審查行政院行刑審議律師法第九條條文修正常案等三案"},{"start":1854.235,"end":1883.935,"text":"本次会有委员黄国昌等12人提出质询,文林思明等2人提出书面质询。决议一报告及询答完毕,进行逐条审查。二,第九条,除第六项手续修正为律师于本法中华民国108年12月13日修正之条文施行前,有第五条第一项第一款情形者外,于照行政院提案通过。三,本案审查完毕,拟据审查报告提请论会公决,不需交由党团协商,因为讨论时由中交协员嘉宾出席说明。"},{"start":1884.555,"end":1885.716,"text":"請問各位就上次會議的議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏"},{"start":1904.887,"end":1931.203,"text":"沒有的話 一速確定 接著我們介紹在場委員及應邀列席官員首先我們介紹的是羅志強委員黃國昌委員接著我們介紹思考院副秘書長 王梅英副秘書長法務部行政訴訟及懲戒廳廳長陳怡怡憲法法庭書記廳廳長楊皓青"},{"start":1935.081,"end":1959.223,"text":"法務部政次 黃士傑政次法務部法制司司長 洪嘉元司長本次議程排定司法訴訟事務上有關預防性權力救濟適用專題報告並被質詢現在進行報告發言時間五分鐘 請司法院副秘書長王梅英報告"},{"start":1967.11,"end":1973.016,"text":"好 主席各位委員和各位先進大家早安那今天很榮幸的奉邀"},{"start":1974.986,"end":2003.806,"text":"來報就那個司法訴訟實務上關於預防性權力就界適用來為本院做說明那請請大家指教這個起源是因為憲法十六條呢他保障了人民有訴訟權那所以在權力受到侵害的時候呢可以跟法院提起訴訟救濟那因此呢權力的救濟他原則上是要權力已經受到侵害為前提但是"},{"start":2004.646,"end":2019.874,"text":"在有特別權力保護必要的情況下那在權力還沒有發生損害也就是說將來很有可能會發生的時候呢這時候會例外的給予救濟那這就是學理上所稱的預防性權力救濟制度"},{"start":2020.974,"end":2035.139,"text":"在各個訴訟程序還有暫時權力保護的制度在個案中可以在提起本案訴訟緩不濟急的時候可以停止執行定暫時處分的狀態來填補一直到本案訴訟判決前一段時間的保護"},{"start":2042.282,"end":2063.099,"text":"那以下緊究就是各個那個訴訟來分別做說明民事訴訟法呢是在246條它規定了一個這個將來解副之訴就是說請求權雖然還沒有到期可是在欲有請求的那個必要的時候可以提起之那另外在民事訴訟法538條它也定了一個這個暫時狀態的那個處分那家事"},{"start":2070.744,"end":2086.491,"text":"訴訟 家事事件法它有那個准用到民事也有這些相關的規定那它在家事事件法中就這個暫時權利的保護也有書面以上所說的就是各種的這種機制那行政訴訟那個部分行政訴訟法115條它准用"},{"start":2089.392,"end":2111.145,"text":"民事訴訟246條的這個將來給付之訴那另外呢就是行政法院的實務還有學說呢都認為在行政訴訟法第8條它所規定的這個一般給付訴訟呢它有包括到了這個預防性的不作為訴訟那這個也是預防性權利救濟最重要的一種那個類型"},{"start":2112.466,"end":2139.464,"text":"那人民呢可以請求行政法院判決命令行政機關在將來不可以做成損害他權利的的這個處分那當然就是說這是一個很特殊的一個情形所以說他的要件非常的嚴格一定要有特別權利保護的這個必要性那在這邊呢有舉了一個那個例子就是說"},{"start":2141.485,"end":2161.546,"text":"最高法院曾经有一个判决中华民国那个红十字总会呢他先前依中华民国那个红十字会法取得了那个法人资格那这个法呢在105年公告的时候废止了那中华民国红十字总会呢他怕他之后呢会遭到内政部"},{"start":2162.567,"end":2180.819,"text":"廢止他的登記所以呢他就預先提起了這個不作為訴訟請求法院判令內政部呢不可以廢止他的人民團體那個登記那這就是一個就是典型的一個案例那另外行政訴訟法298條也規定了這個暫時處分"},{"start":2187.694,"end":2208.451,"text":"那至於在那個憲法訴訟法的那個部分呢憲法訴訟法第一條它規定了憲法法庭它可以審理的各種案件類型那它並沒有直接明文規定就是以預先與預防性的權利救濟作為審理的案件類型這是第一點齁"},{"start":2209.352,"end":2233.648,"text":"那第二點還可以討論的就是說 憲訴法的46條它規定說行政訴訟法的規定除本法或者是審理規則別有規定之外呢和本法性質不相抵觸的時候準用之所以呢憲法法庭在審理案件的時候呢如果說性質不相抵觸的範圍內它是可以準用"},{"start":2234.268,"end":2254.317,"text":"行政訴訟法的那至於說在個案中呢行政訴訟法它有關這個預防性權利救濟的規定到底和憲訴法的性質有沒有相抵觸呢那這個部分或者是說有沒有准用這個部分因為是屬於憲法法庭它個案審理的審判核心事項"},{"start":2255.517,"end":2278.648,"text":"這部分本院作為司法行政我們尊重大法官獨立審判另外在限訴法中有關於權力保護的部分就是暫時處分規定在限訴法43條相關的適用也是基於以上的說明以上報告敬請各位委員先進指教謝謝大家"},{"start":2281.462,"end":2306.48,"text":"好 謝謝 那現在為我們麻煩法務部政次 黃政次報告主席 各位委員 各位女士先生今日奉邀列席貴人會就司法訴訟實務上關於預防性權利救濟之適用請代表法務部列席並被質詢之報告說明如下"},{"start":2308.161,"end":2330.009,"text":"關於這個預防性權利救濟的具體的法律條文從這個歷史的眼光來看最早是在民事輸送法的規定那麼現行的246條規定這個所謂的將來給付之數事實上這個條文在民國19年的時候就已經有訂定了那麼在民國89年的時候修正如目前這個條文所示"},{"start":2330.749,"end":2356.181,"text":"那當時是為了擴大將來給付之數的適用範圍參照日本德國的立法例修正為有預為請求之必要者均得提起將來給付之數那當然他有一定的這個書上這個適用的所寫的這個法律要件包括代替性補充性或者是判決宣示後使刀騎士繼續性給付這樣子的情形才可以來提起這個將來給付之數那麼在"},{"start":2360.348,"end":2386.367,"text":"這個實務上有累積了很多的判決包含書面報告所載最高法院109年度台上至第2778號民事裁定以及台灣高等法院104年度上至第1279號民事裁定等等但是將來警務指數在民事訴訟上呢雖可避免原告權力實現之時機延後但亦可能增加被告事後究竟的困難及負擔"},{"start":2387.108,"end":2387.348,"text":"那如果這個"},{"start":2404.336,"end":2419.097,"text":"實務上的例子認為說如果預約請求者有對待給付制限制的話呢就不能夠提起那麼誠如剛才司法院副秘書長的報告行政訴訟法也有准用民主訴訟法前階條文的規定那麼是以在這個"},{"start":2421.48,"end":2436.73,"text":"一般學理上認為行政訴訟法第八條所謂的給付訴訟包含這樣的一個學理上稱為預防性不作為訴訟那麼書面報告引述最高法院"},{"start":2438.131,"end":2456.322,"text":"103年度判製第329號判決裡面其實將這一個訴訟的要件做了相當程度的具體化包含了很多要件,比如蓋然性、重大損害性以及特別權利保護之必要性等等請參閱書面,因為有點多,時間不夠另外在"},{"start":2463.567,"end":2489.744,"text":"事用上要注意的就是說人民向行政法院請求判命行政機關未來不得做成損害及權利之行政行為之不作為訴訟也就是稱為這個預防性不作為訴訟用這個行政訴訟所禁止的行為除了行政機關的行政處分之外也可以包含事實行為或其他可能侵害其權利之一切行政行為那麼預防性不作為訴訟因為具有事前審查性質"},{"start":2490.704,"end":2517.327,"text":"為了避免司法權過早介入行政權的決定空間以規避訴訟宣言前之程序之可能故僅在人民將因行政機關做成之行政主憤或其他公權力行為而有發生重大損害之餘或無可回復之重大不利的時候且須在事後究竟已無失意或無期待人民等到行政行為做成後再尋行政究竟途徑的情形下"},{"start":2517.927,"end":2535.983,"text":"才具有所謂的特別保護權力的必要性那麼司法權在這個情況底下時可事前介入審判換言之只有在訴願跟撤銷訴訟不能達成有效權力保護的情形權力無從及時受到保護時才例外的來允許提起此類訴訟"},{"start":2537.544,"end":2561.785,"text":"那麼由於這個民事適用法、行政適用法並非本部所主管之法規那麼本部即所屬機關亦非適用上開機關做成裁判或決定之機關是以相關條文之要件含涉範圍及在實務個案之具體適用本部均尊重司法院及各級法院基於這個法規主管之用之地位"},{"start":2562.305,"end":2572.917,"text":"或個案審判的這個審判機關之地位本與審判獨立所作之解釋以上報告進行指教謝謝謝謝次長機關報告完畢相關書面內容列入公報記錄我們補充介紹中嘉賓召委"},{"start":2581.77,"end":2596.481,"text":"現在開始進行詢答本會委員詢答時間為8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為5分鐘並不再延長上午10點30分截止發言登記現在請登記第一位委員黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":2611.171,"end":2619.62,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩有請我們司法院的副秘書長憲法法庭書記廳廳長法務部政務次長好 麻煩上台"},{"start":2628.238,"end":2648.756,"text":"三位好,時間的關係不宜問候老實說今天召委也很辛苦竟然就所謂的司法訴訟實務上預防性權力救濟的應用排了一個專題報告老實說這個專題報告之所以會發生就是民進黨的官員為了要去貫徹民進黨的意志"},{"start":2653.766,"end":2663.487,"text":"把腦袋動到憲法法庭裡面所想出來的一個怪招為了要處理這個怪招我必須要老實講"},{"start":2665.499,"end":2691.229,"text":"預防訓的全力救濟這也不是什麼深奧的大道理所有大三修過訴訟法的人通通都知道是怎麼回事民事訴訟法246條將來幾付之數什麼是有預為請求之必要修過大三民事訴訟法的人心裡都很有數那重點是什麼重點是這樣子的東西把它放在憲法訴訟的脈絡當中嗎我們一步一步來看"},{"start":2694.315,"end":2712.709,"text":"行政院 政委林明欣是不是有找人送案來 請司法院標題是司法院曖昧吧 有還是沒有跟委員說明 目前沒有收到行政院送的案子他有找其他的案子的訴訟代理人在其他案子裡面申請"},{"start":2714.926,"end":2738.218,"text":"暫時狀態的處分嗎林政委有沒有找別人這個我毫無所惜那目前有人民就原本已經申請細數的案件申請暫時處分好說得很好有人名就申請細數的案件申請暫時處分申請暫時處分的那個案件從提出一開始的事先申請到現在有多久了"},{"start":2740.512,"end":2754.313,"text":"跟委員說明這個部分的案件的類型跟時間都不一樣有的是最近才提出的申請案有的是之前就已經申請的案件之前申請的案件最早的有多久委員稍等我一下我核對一下資料回覆"},{"start":2757.424,"end":2775.743,"text":"根據我目前手上的資料目前有提出申請案暫時處分的部分最草的本案系署日 以我手邊目前掌握的資料應該是111年的2022年嘛對 111年的9月好 2022年到現在多久啦"},{"start":2777.827,"end":2798.593,"text":"呃兩年多兩年多了嘛我為什麼問你這個問題定暫時狀態的處分除了必要性以外還有急迫性嘛這個案子在憲法法庭睡了兩年多之前都沒有急迫性啦現在急迫性突然發生啦為什麼在法界淪為笑話這就是道理嘛再往下看啦李明欣說啊"},{"start":2805.219,"end":2811.304,"text":"法律案沒有生效以前可以成為釋憲的標的,是法院贊成嗎?這個部分我們在報告中已經做了那個說明了什麼說明?尊重憲法法庭?是的真的嗎?尊重憲法法庭所以沒有辦法說明,是這樣嗎?"},{"start":2828.639,"end":2842.468,"text":"這個部分就是還是要回到那個沒有生效的法律可不可以成為釋憲的標的這是一個標準的抽象法律問題啊司法院現在連這件事情都不敢表示意見喔那個委員這個部分在個案適用中的時候這不是個案適用這是法律原則喔"},{"start":2852.413,"end":2874.181,"text":"沒有生效的法律可不可以成為事件的標的這是一個抽象的法律問題啊請教司法院的立場是什麼在憲法訴訟法第一條呢它是沒有規範這種案件類型沒有規範這種案件類型嗎那你們當初在推憲法訴訟法的時候有要創設這種法律生效以前的違憲審查制度嗎"},{"start":2877.543,"end":2887.049,"text":"有嗎跟委員說明就我的了解當時沒有討論到當時沒有討論到你確定嗎你確定嗎就條文的立法理由來看的話"},{"start":2890.031,"end":2910.494,"text":"我審過的東西啊我都會記得很清楚啊來先看一下憲法訴訟法刑事上面46條準用行政訴訟法115條再準用民事訴訟法246條你要看一下準用啊除了有特別規定以外還要跟本法性質不相抵觸啊"},{"start":2911.618,"end":2936.812,"text":"要跟本法性質不相抵觸啊才有準用的可能跟空間嘛現在的問題在哪裡我國的違憲審查制度從以前到現在都是針對已經生效的法律都是針對已經生效的法律跟在法國他們透過破毀法院能夠預先提早進行法規範憲法審查"},{"start":2939.423,"end":2964.363,"text":"是兩套完全不同的制度啊在每一本憲法教科書裡面啊全部都有寫每一本憲法教科書全部都有寫這麼基本的東西啊你們司法院到今天突然不敢表示立場我為什麼說突然不敢表示立場剛剛司法院的代表說在修法的歷程當中從來沒有成為真典說謊"},{"start":2967.478,"end":2970.002,"text":"說謊我為什麼說說謊來看一下2019年修法的時候憲法訴訟法那個時候2019年我們2018到2019年修法嘛來看一下"},{"start":2985.744,"end":3011.986,"text":"2018年修法的時候司法院明確表示總統沒有公布的法律不可以成為事件標的為什麼我記得這件事情因為當初提出這個問題的就是我當初司法院的秘書長是呂太郎我們看一下我當初怎麼問他的幾件事情請教司法院第一件事情你們在界定就期行使職權可以申請事件成熟的時間點是什麼時候"},{"start":3014.671,"end":3034.327,"text":"呂秘書長太郎怎麼講的目前我們的制度跟法國不太一樣法國憲法委員會是有部分國家憲政顧問的作用可以先問憲法委員會我們這邊沒有所以我們的制度來設計法律案沒有成為法律案不能夠先問大法官的意見這呂太郎講的"},{"start":3036.533,"end":3057.226,"text":"在立法院公報白紙黑字他第二段怎麼講的在我們條文49條裡面是就其行使職權認為法律未接的法規範他基本上已經有一個法律的效力在裡面才有如果立法院還沒有通過總統還沒有公佈實施他基本上還沒有法規範的問題"},{"start":3059.569,"end":3080.122,"text":"這是當初憲法訴訟法在審查的時候我那時候第一次當立法委員在立法院裡面跟立法院跟司法院的秘書長呂太郎彼此之間的對答來請教一下司法院的官員司法院的官員當初在立法院推動憲法訴訟法的時候當時秘書長講的話算不算話來請副秘書長"},{"start":3086.308,"end":3113.66,"text":"不好意思喔 對廳長沒有不敬啊但你的成績不夠啊這個要請副秘書長回答當初呂太郎是在立法院裡面欺騙立法委員嗎是這樣嗎還是現在反正呂太郎他也高升大法官了不關他的事了所以現在的司法院沒有要認賬當初呂太郎當秘書長的時候在立法院所講的話"},{"start":3116.095,"end":3144.787,"text":"來 請教副秘書長這個部分我們尊重當時的那個呂秘書長的意見當時的呂秘書長是代表他個人嗎他是代表司法院來立法院針對憲法訴訟法如何解釋適用立法規範的意思是什麼到立法院來進行立法說明憲法訴訟法當初提到立法院來審議的是哪一個機關就是司法院嘛"},{"start":3146.141,"end":3174.102,"text":"立法院在審法案的時候針對你們當初憲法訴訟法的設計提出了問題立法過程當中立法過程當中立法者的原意到底是什麼就透過這樣的詢答很清楚的展現出來了嘛所以我才問嘛司法院的立場是改變了嗎是遇到民進黨有政治上的需求遇到綠色"},{"start":3176.124,"end":3188.856,"text":"有政治上的需求我們台灣的法律制度是可以配合著執政黨有政治上的需求就變來變去嗎是這樣嗎來 請司法院副秘書長表達立場"},{"start":3192.932,"end":3206.57,"text":"法律的解釋就是當時立法者的討論的意思這當然是一種解釋所以我們尊重當時黎秘書長的意見剛才也講了就是說在限訴法第一條它可以規範類型裡頭的第一款"},{"start":3209.474,"end":3225.205,"text":"法規範的那個審查這邊的那個法律當然是指已經生效那個法律可是就是這個地方是不是還有46條這個地方的一個那個解釋當然這個是個案在試用的時候那是憲法法律你們可以這樣子變來變去喔"},{"start":3227.466,"end":3248.685,"text":"同一個司法院2019年要審限訴法來立法院說一套現在配合民進黨政府的需求又講另外一套為什麼這樣的司法人民沒有辦法信任為什麼這樣的司法人民沒有辦法信任為什麼司法的公信力會不斷的降低我希望"},{"start":3249.446,"end":3271.017,"text":"司法院回去好好深思這個問題第二個比較小技術上面的問題我要拜託司法院的官員以後送來立法院的報告這不是新聞司法院送來立法院的報告嚴肅對待我為什麼這樣子講有一個東西叫做定暫時狀態的假處分嗎法律用語是這樣嗎"},{"start":3273.793,"end":3302.32,"text":"應該是定暫時狀態的處分吧怎麼會有定暫時狀態的假處分你說一般法律系的學生一般的假處分跟定暫時狀態的處分分不清楚這還情有可原司法院犯這種錯誤就贏效大方了啦你同一份喔送到立法院來的書面資料又有寫定暫時狀態的假處分又有寫定暫時狀態的處分大家看了以後啊覺得哇"},{"start":3303.2,"end":3324.838,"text":"我們司法院的水準是這樣 讓人嘆為觀止啊副秘書長 我有沒有說錯這邊是一個疏失是一個疏失嘛 你不要以後讓法律系的學生說老師不對啊 我們司法院的官員送來立法院的報告都有寫定暫時狀態的假處分啊所以這個詞的使用沒有問題啊"},{"start":3328.246,"end":3346.351,"text":"基本啊 法律人交出來的東西要由法律人交出來的樣子這個是我非常卑微的要求拜託司法院以後注意這些事情 可以嗎謝謝指正 我們以後會把頓號加上去頓號 你多了一個假字耶這個是頓號的問題嗎定暫時狀態處分 然後頓號來來來 第一頁"},{"start":3353.001,"end":3360.947,"text":"定暫時狀態假處分第一頁的時候第一頁就寫錯啦這是一個頓耗的問題嗎是嗎你有沒有看到錯了就錯了啦好來 請法務部我非常的困惑"},{"start":3379.164,"end":3387.287,"text":"我在第一個第一次當立委的時候針對通緝犯查緝系統必須要處理好的這件事情"},{"start":3388.379,"end":3416.815,"text":"我講了好幾次喔我講了好幾次喔通緝犯查緝系統要統合你們那個時候拖了半天政委羅秉成結果搞了半天啊搞一個東西出來我說調查局有一個刑事警察局有一個高等檢察署有一個一人一把號各吹各的調就是不願意統合起來林秉文這個重大的通緝犯喔被通緝了"},{"start":3417.996,"end":3433.901,"text":"結果找了半天我第一時間啊三個平台通通都沒有三個平台通通都沒有結果被我質詢了以後刑事警察局趕快補上去了請問台灣高檢署的系統補充了沒有"},{"start":3435.825,"end":3452.038,"text":"跟委員報告因為林秉文這個個案現在是在審判中所以是由院方來發布的通緝所以台灣高檢署的通緝系統只要訴訟細數了到院方在台灣高檢署的系統就沒有"},{"start":3452.558,"end":3481.491,"text":"因為我們各個機關發布通緝的時候呢它都會在這個上面沒有顯示的第四個系統是全國的監警調人員都可以直接查詢的那個系統雖然因為各自隱私的關係所以這個全部都可以查詢的系統是沒有這個圖像的但是那個系統只要發布了之後就會跟你們講只要建置一個統一的通緝犯系統的理由嘛你有各自上的限制又沒有照片"},{"start":3483.713,"end":3498.086,"text":"阿怎麼發揮公告的效果這個公告是要看有沒有必要向國內的人民來公告我先停一下你覺得林秉文有沒有必要跟國內的人民公告我想新聞報導都已經有所以只要用新聞的報導就可以取代通緝辦的查信系統嗎"},{"start":3502.87,"end":3515.86,"text":"這三個系統是各個犯罪偵查的機關辦刑事警察局調查局跟高檢署他們根據自己業務的需要自行製作的系統我請法務部再回去看一看"},{"start":3516.901,"end":3541.805,"text":"當初為什麼會建制要求建制一個統一的系統回去再看一看你們繼續不做我就很清楚的跟你講你們繼續不做我就一定反映在預算審查上全國人民都可以當一個公正的裁判對不起喔我現在還沒有請你講話可以請你不要插話嗎可以請你不要插話嗎可以請你不要插話嗎"},{"start":3547.628,"end":3560.9,"text":"全國的人民都可以做一個評判遇到特定跟民進黨權貴有關係的大咖通緝犯查詢系統不敢登啊不敢登啊"},{"start":3563.056,"end":3580.905,"text":"這樣子的司法部門 要如何取得人民的信賴最後一個問題啊 檢察官跟無乃人在這邊驗癮黃委員 黃委員先等一下 因為我以前主持會議一路以來我的慣例就是如此 盡量讓大家暢所欲言"},{"start":3581.445,"end":3595.817,"text":"所以以前不管吳思耀委員或是柯建民委員或是中召委我都讓你們講那我會站起來那就大家各自能夠控制一下時間那待會中召委如果你要講兩小時我也可以陪在這邊陪你站"},{"start":3596.698,"end":3612.735,"text":"好來 最後一個問題檢察官跟無奶人進出高檔的餐廳一客七千塊起跳包廂低銷六萬法務部說啟動行政調查調查出來沒有目前還沒有"},{"start":3613.582,"end":3631.345,"text":"還要多久這個我們回去再跟高檢署跟北檢來詢問一下好 什麼時候可以回覆這麼簡單的事情要拖這麼久晚一點就可以回覆辦案的效率太差了吧這麼簡單的事情要拖這麼久辦案的效率可以這麼差喔"},{"start":3633.354,"end":3661.913,"text":"請法務部啊 回去啊清楚的告訴全責機關因為是法務部跟社會講說要啟動行政調查嘛所以我當然就問法務部嘛到底還需要多久這樣可以嗎馬上回覆喔看你們到底還要調查多久因為全國人民在等著看啊我們的檢察官是什麼官僧啊是什麼官僧啊最後 主席我只講一件事啦"},{"start":3662.794,"end":3687.137,"text":"我今天在這邊質詢我站在上面質詢中嘉賓從頭到尾在下面騷擾我不想因為他的騷擾而中斷了我的質詢基本上你組織會議我都尊重那至於中嘉賓指控我超時中嘉賓你回去自己看看啦你以前超時的時候有人在下面干擾你嗎不要這麼沒有品啦好 謝謝"},{"start":3688.595,"end":3710.052,"text":"好 謝謝各位因為基本上我自己主持會議就這樣嘛你看我之前主持會議除非當天要發言的人非常多我們才盡量去控制否則我都是尊重各位委員的發言那時間到然後過一下我會站起來那就是再麻煩委員能夠控制一下發言的時間好 那下一位我們麻煩鍾嘉斌召委發言"},{"start":3725.854,"end":3751.822,"text":"主席我尊重召委的主持所以我在台下呢跟主席表示也沒有按麥克風完全尊重主席的才智我也沒有動用權宜問題程序發言按著麥克風講了二三十分鐘那至於剛剛的發言者講多少時間因為您是主席您同意我就沒有意見那我自己呢我會盡量的來遵守在立法院本來就是一個互相尊重的場合謝謝總統謝謝"},{"start":3753.903,"end":3767.75,"text":"好 那麼接下來我們在場已經沒有委員先進了那列席的政府機關首長官員會長工作夥伴媒體接任女士先生那麼有請司法院的王副秘書長還有書記廳的楊廳長廳長以及法務部的黃次長黃次長那首先副秘書長不好意思要注意因為"},{"start":3779.898,"end":3803.886,"text":"有委員常常會提醒他的發言全國人民都在看那第二個呢請教一下方便的話回答一下個人的問題您參加過論文的口試嗎就是學術論文的口試學位論文的口試是的在德國在德國其實呢在台灣的教授們當你論文口試的時候標點或者湊別字你都不要去"},{"start":3806.888,"end":3821.944,"text":"說有辯駁就承認就對了尤其是有學術背景當過教授的委員特別會希望您是就論文審查的規格來回答他的詢問那第三個呢也是有點個人啦您覺得未來自己有沒有可能成為大法官"},{"start":3824.11,"end":3841.056,"text":"有可能不一定但有可能不排除這個可能個人沒有這個志向沒有這個志向但是也有可能假設有照一日那如果有照一日你成為大法官的時候要時時記得這個政黨的主席會雙標代理黨主席會雙標"},{"start":3842.236,"end":3854.473,"text":"那他會要求你過去跟現在跟未來言行必須一致到時候萬一您擔任大法官那您的過去現在的答詢雖然只是一個法律上的見解也會拿來做引用您有記住了嗎"},{"start":3857.861,"end":3874.745,"text":"接下來我不做法律系大三以上的課程的教授我只做一般公民法感上他在理解現實生活中他遇到的法律問題我請問一下黃次長看起來你應該比較常看電影 你有沒有看過湯姆克魯斯的關鍵報告"},{"start":3876.606,"end":3891.404,"text":"很久以前有看過看過 有印象吧後面兩位有沒有印象我們比較輕鬆一點 有沒有印象有沒有看過 都沒有那我就問黃次長 他們都說沒有這個當中呢這個Tom Cruise他本來是一個受國家的執法機關的人員"},{"start":3892.265,"end":3919.15,"text":"他們這個當時的科幻片的情節呢是有個先知可以偵測出人的犯罪意圖可以預知未來的犯罪結果因此如果他預知張三有犯罪那麼這個特勤呢就會在他犯罪之前予以逮捕或獲刑大概是這樣吧是您覺得在哲學上這樣的做法一個人還沒犯罪之前因為預知他會犯罪先把他抓起來這個在哲學上有沒有問題啊"},{"start":3922.145,"end":3944.187,"text":"因為這個是科幻電影所以他的事實設定的條件跟我們現實生活中不太一樣就是必須說這個預知的犯罪是必然會發生的不做事前的逮捕 不妨礙挽救所以如果預知一定會成真預告的情況一定會發生 那就要及時阻止在那個設定裡面是沒有蓋然性的問題"},{"start":3944.952,"end":3953.464,"text":"是 是這樣子但是人為了自己沒有犯的罪去坐牢這個就有點奇怪了啦我還那時候在看電影是想不通但是我們洗碼上是不是有類似的規定"},{"start":3955.595,"end":3981.788,"text":"委員在螢幕上所顯示的這個是新訴法101-1條的預防性羈押的規定他是怕你跑掉啦是不是 說再犯罪啦 怕你重複犯罪這個主要不是仿討 而是說他重複犯罪怕連續殺人 連續縱火 有必要嘛所以因為他前面有一個犯刑了所以足以讓我們支撐 為了預防他下一個連續犯刑我們把他終止 把他預防 是這樣嘛"},{"start":3982.288,"end":4005.803,"text":"好 那再看下一個其實我們台灣是熱帶氣候不過這兩天好冷如果在溫帶國家如果沒有暖氣的供應那是會要命的假如說有一個住戶客戶他跟他的天然氣瓦斯公司有爭議有欠繳的費用公司要給他斷氣但是他說這個今天太陽下山會冷死所以他說這個繳費的爭議先不能夠有斷氣你覺得"},{"start":4010.049,"end":4039.324,"text":"在民事上有沒有類似的一個措施可以來防止這個情況或判理這個情況民事上的損害預防這個有沒有類似的類似的規定這個我也是要講這個沒關係就你的理解因為我們只是說生活上假如說我們很冷結果跟公司有繳費的爭議他要給我斷氣我呢會怕凍死所以我說這個不能先給我讓我去討論說到底我有沒有欠他錢不能馬上斷"},{"start":4041.778,"end":4068.095,"text":"對 所以我想委員可能是要指出秘書法246條在外籍不是是 OK 好 所以你們的主張就是類似我看到這樣的見解這是在司法院跟法務部的見解 來往下看來 請教副秘書長其實今天呢 我的個人的見解是這樣法律三讀後已無改變可能啊所以應有預防性權利的救濟適用好 那我們現在不談法律系的大三的課程我們來看一看最近的歷史 請看"},{"start":4069.885,"end":4096.083,"text":"這個憲法法庭的職權是包括這六項違憲審查政黨的違憲解散統一的解釋法律命令還有機關爭議總統副總統談判地方制的保障是不是掌理這些事項是的那這些事項是不是很核心的就是保障人民的基本權利是的同時要維持一個憲法機關的權利分立的原則包括政府中央跟地方是不是是是很好所以憲法法庭不要以為只有政黨在關係政黨的利益"},{"start":4096.363,"end":4115.634,"text":"他關係人民甚居我們看一下憲法訴訟法到憲判一一我之前在有沒有詢問過你自遺產稅侵害財產權違憲一個女童因為她父親過世了她的後母跟她的其他的子女拋棄繼承之後結果她只繼承了150萬卻要繳570萬的遺產稅那麼 胡平長你對於憲法法庭這個判決部分違憲您覺得對人民的權利有沒有得到保障"},{"start":4123.956,"end":4139.063,"text":"有 有重大的保障那如果說今天這個案子還在審理中雖然我們現在預知審理結果是這樣假設在審理當中現在憲法法庭不運作了是不是這個小女孩她就要去繳這570萬對她來講 5700萬的一個損害會發生是不是 對 廳長可以回答"},{"start":4150.922,"end":4160.848,"text":"跟委員說明如果說因為是確定裁判的審查那如果沒有停止執行的話就會發生嗎所以憲法法庭對人民是非常至關重要的我們再往下看所以本次憲法訴訟法將可能會讓憲法法庭的全部職權受到影響包括什麼我們的憲法訴訟法第30條第234項它同時去含設了43條的暫時處分的裁定75條的宣告彈劾的成立以及第80條的政堂解散"},{"start":4180.72,"end":4205.536,"text":"那是不是這樣子所有的憲法法庭涉及到這六種功能如果目前有八人未達十人門檻這些案件是不是都會受到影響?副委員長你的看法呢?要注意喔,有可能有一天你會當大法官喔會不會受到影響?目前的狀況會不會受到影響?就是這六個是不是都會受到影響?可以請廳長說,你也有機會當大法官"},{"start":4206.994,"end":4229.268,"text":"跟委員說明就是根據我們統計到昨天最新的數據我們目前的未結案有440件你已經跳題了我看下一題來是不是這樣就是目前為止未結案有434件這個是到去年年底那目前最新的數字未結案是440件440件又多了6件這當中人民申請的比例高達95%其中146件已經受理了"},{"start":4233.07,"end":4254.367,"text":"受理就是要排案去審理對不對如果憲法法庭停擺 這些人會不會受到影響如果憲法法庭沒有運作當然好 那我們來看一下還有誰受到影響呢 最近的案例高雄案件已經申請釋憲了 將庭審到憲判出爐是不是這樣子 副秘書長您覺得是不是所了解這個案對 他有裁定停止是 所以來 黃次長"},{"start":4256.46,"end":4275.882,"text":"這個案子涉貪案嘛 目前呢 議檢已經提起起訴了那麼目前高昂案如果停止審理 他是不是持續一個無罪狀態因為他還沒有判決確定 對嘛那如果無罪狀態 他要參選2026 他目前為止就沒有新的案件事件發生的話他是以目前的狀態他可以繼續參選的 是不是這樣"},{"start":4278.256,"end":4296.757,"text":"這個可能要由內政部到時候到中選會那時候來做這個審查是但是以目前如果沒有其他案件以他現況只有這個案件的話這個案件如果是無罪那沒有其他案件的話那他是可以繼續參選的這個案件只能說還沒判決權對還沒判決權好OK好謝謝另外還有一個案件來那個市長"},{"start":4298.018,"end":4322.336,"text":"政黨違憲解散難以執行 目前我們看到新聞報導危害國家安全的反滲透法的 總統副總統選罷法的 兩岸條例的 八岸十一人都是統促黨目前內政部說要查處 申請解散目前有沒有收到內政部的申請來請聽 聽長有沒有收到目前沒有收到內政部的申請那如果收到了以後可不可以審理 如果目前的狀態下"},{"start":4323.899,"end":4335.458,"text":"呃 能不能審理這次審判事務所以我們就方便說好 那我很清楚好 我們來看一下所以說如果憲法法庭癱瘓停擺誰受益誰受害很清楚啊政黨受益啊"},{"start":4337.413,"end":4363.002,"text":"統促黨可以免於解散啊 還不急著解散啊社攤的市長 民眾黨 社攤的市長 停審啊依照現在狀況可以繼續參選啊但是如果以那個憲判11號以判的萬一他那時候還沒判出來他就要無辜的背負5700萬的遺產稅 擬制稅制還有喔 112 去年 前年啦 現在是前年的審第十案 待審"},{"start":4364.082,"end":4391.672,"text":"是一個堂叔從小他的親戚的孩子他把他收養因為不符合出養的規定那麼呢所以他就要等著收養如果這個案子沒有判下來黃市長您覺得這樣的一個人民的權益是不是會受到損害會有相當大的影響會有相當大的影響好來我們講一下看繼續那我請教副秘書長司法院本身性質職權如果受到影響可不可以請求釋憲"},{"start":4393.67,"end":4421.943,"text":"憲法訴訟法第47條第一項有沒有符合如果說最高機關司法院嘛因本身所適用的法規定有任何觸犯憲法者可以申請憲法法庭做違憲這判決嘛可不可以這在法條上是符合的那你們有沒有做過過去有沒有做過 廳長跟我們報告根據我們目前掌握的資料在過往就職時期有沒有司法院曾經有申請過兩件曾經有過但這兩件最後都不受理"},{"start":4422.914,"end":4450.845,"text":"好 那我們來看一下 如果司法院有申請過 不管有沒有受理啦那有沒有其他機關提出來的立法院可不可以提出 譬如說四字六一 九零一當年也是涉及到司法院大法官他的專業法官加級司法院沒有提啊 誰提民進黨黨團提啊 因為刪了總預算這就在去年到今年 今年的總預算案 副秘書長"},{"start":4452.128,"end":4468.326,"text":"你們目前簡列的跟凍結的數額多少你知道嗎目前還沒有加總沒有加總你要小心好所以說立法院的部分委員只要符合四分之以上就可以提出"},{"start":4469.45,"end":4498.87,"text":"對於這些有違憲之餘的我們會提出申請釋憲是不是這樣可以嗎好那我們來往下一看那什麼時間可以救濟目前我們看到的限訴法是在復議未通過現在在這個階段藍色的階段尚未生效總統公佈後生效施行那以生效就無法依我依憲新法就無法裁判那目前是否已經沒有其他憲政方式可以改變結果有沒有"},{"start":4499.731,"end":4519.687,"text":"這個結果目前,不通過了,有沒有其他改變的可能?這個法案,限訴法,您覺得有沒有可能?目前的階段有沒有可能改變?來,廳長還是要廳長答?兩位都有當大法官的機會的人,請小心答,來有沒有可能改變?"},{"start":4521.897,"end":4545.969,"text":"因為這個即將是可能會成為一個我們系訴訟的案件是 所以你們不便表示意見很好 好 往下看那麼訴訟的核心功能即使有權力有效的權力救濟暫時處分我們看到了起訴後再暫時處分到判決確定前預防訴訟為了避免遭到不可回復的損害紅十字法你們舉的例子在起訴的時候你就要進行防止權力損害"},{"start":4546.889,"end":4568.297,"text":"所以如果承認事後不可救濟是不是就應該允許提出暫時處分或預防訴訟這是你們今天提出來的一些看法供我們本委員參考是不是這樣子副秘書長我所覺得我所做的這個事情權利救濟是不是就今天討論核心要有及時有效的權利救濟嘛您的看法呢這是我整理的啦"},{"start":4569.366,"end":4583.679,"text":"你們覺得是不是大概是這個意思就你們提的這兩個案子一個是國家考試你們舉的例子嘛是是嘛是這個例子嘛一個是兩個例子嘛一個是考試嘛是報考對不對一個呢是紅十字嘛OK好往下看"},{"start":4584.48,"end":4611.297,"text":"所以結論我也不要耽誤時間因為主席站出來雖然他沒講話雖然他之前說要給我兩個小時但是我相信他的身體比較誠實他既然起來了我就把結論說了所以憲法法庭停擺是不是政黨受益人民受害這是我今天要來這邊表達的當然我們尊重大家各自的看法第二 立法委員只要符合憲法法規定就可以就司法院權力提示線是有權力的"},{"start":4613.569,"end":4638.822,"text":"4-601那你們自己講的有不成案的不受理的也有兩件申請釋憲暫時處分之時機是不是最後一個你可以說是不是應該由憲法法庭來認定對這是憲法法庭的那個權限很好謝謝今天我的質詢就到這裡謝謝跟詢問跟說明謝謝你還可以多講一下沒有啊你的身體很沉沒問題你的高見我還想繼續聽啊看有沒有想要講他只遇15分鐘"},{"start":4642.11,"end":4664.559,"text":"好那謝謝中召委那下一位我們請陳俊宇委員發言好謝謝主席那有請我們副秘書長跟黃次長副秘書長次長"},{"start":4667.952,"end":4683.462,"text":"早安今天我們所要討論的專題我想也是作為憲法憲訴法修法之後延伸的討論自從憲訴法提出之後到委員會審議還有院會的表決"},{"start":4686.224,"end":4702.936,"text":"社會諸多的關注而行政院作為一個能夠提出復議的憲政機關在本月初正式復議之後卻未能獲得邀請前來立法院做說明最終這個復議案也沒有通過"},{"start":4703.696,"end":4723.589,"text":"也是在我們意料之中那也看到上週在司法節學術研討會上我們這個謝明揚代理院長在致詞的時候也指出目前司法面臨許多挑戰包括限訴法的這個修法對憲法法庭運作會造成的相關問題"},{"start":4724.85,"end":4749.504,"text":"由於在去年的這個12月三讀通過的這個版本是在表決前所提出的再修正動議那跟我們10月份委員會所審查的這個版本有所不同也沒有徵詢過司法院的意見我想先就叫我們複密通過的這個新法對於憲法法庭造成的這種實務運作上會有什麼樣的困境"},{"start":4751.772,"end":4766.858,"text":"好 謝謝委員就是那個伊犁法院三讀通過的限訴法30條修正的這個條文呢那個憲法訴訟的案件類型就是除了87條的統一解釋法令還維持原來的平決門檻"},{"start":4768.138,"end":4785.201,"text":"也就是說大法官現有的那個總額過半數參與評議那參與評議的大法官過半數同意之外呢像是其他的案件類型裁判及法規範的那個憲法審查還有地方自治保障總統及副總統彈劾政黨違憲解散還有43條的那個暫時處分呢這一些它的那個門檻大法官參與評議的人數呢不可以低於10人"},{"start":4796.524,"end":4799.913,"text":"同意違憲裁判人數不可以低於9人"},{"start":4801.551,"end":4826.567,"text":"那有關那個機關爭議的案件呢大法官參與評議的人數是不可以低於10人的所以呢目前就是我們現狀情況在任的大法官目前是8個人所以說有關案件就是有幾個類型一個是案件是否受理還有一個統一解釋法令等案件呢因為這一些就是"},{"start":4827.407,"end":4853.901,"text":"相關規定沒有修正所以目前都還是依現行的方式在處理至於說其他的這些案件類型它在新法公佈生效之後實務運作這個部分是屬於憲法法庭審判的事項我們司法行政也是維護大法官的獨立審判這個部分我們就不表示意見"},{"start":4855.202,"end":4883.627,"text":"好 那我們規定這個參與評議和做成違憲的這個大法官人數然後剛剛複密有講了就算人數這個我們現在看人數是不夠就算民眾的陳情案子我們也沒辦法正常的去做這個審理以目前來看就是剛才講到那個上訴那個案件如果說是受理之後的裁判跟法規範那個憲法審查可是目前嗎還是說新法"},{"start":4884.71,"end":4909.839,"text":"新法制定之後對這個部分還是沒辦法那對於我們這個憲法法庭的這個運作會造成實質的這個自愛難行的困境甚至會完全癱瘓這個我想我們應該現在目前應該有感覺到了那不利於我們權力的這個保障那不過也有人持反對的這個立場認為說只要盡快的補滿大法官"},{"start":4910.78,"end":4925.796,"text":"這個缺口就能夠解決那在這個設下如此高的這個門檻的情況之下是否在運作上仍有可能會導致我們相關的這個審議的效率會降低的情形這個部分我是不是能夠讓那個書記廳長回答"},{"start":4929.382,"end":4956.654,"text":"根文報告就是如果以新法將來這個制度來看的話那除了剛剛副秘書長說明的之外那因為有關於受理與否以及統一解釋法律命令這個部分的規定沒有修改那這個部分當然就這個部分我們可以持續的來運作那其實目前我們八位大法官也是分三個審查庭那分授原本應該有15個大法官所分授的一個全部的新案跟未結案來持續處理"},{"start":4957.714,"end":4967.342,"text":"那至於說其他類型的案件那因為新法上路之後他能不能運作如何運作那就是審判事項我們就不方便說明好"},{"start":4968.223,"end":4990.329,"text":"那由於我們這個立法院在週一的傍晚已經將復議案的結果支付我們總統還有韓副行政院了那根據憲法這個規定最晚必須在1月23日完成公佈尋求的這個救濟手段還尚待評估那我想請教我們副議員跟黃志就針對"},{"start":4991.249,"end":5007.178,"text":"你們的這個專案專業的判斷提出預防性的這個權力救濟是不是現階段最可行的一個途徑我想這個部分不是司法本院所能夠回答的謝謝委員"},{"start":5009.78,"end":5032.83,"text":"我想因為這個目前我們法務部並沒有接到行政院任何關於這個相關議題的研議的交辦所以我們也不方便表示意見那正如剛才司法院副委員所說的委員所提的問題事實上未來涉及審判的核心事項我們為尊重這個審判獨立我們也不便表示意見 謝謝"},{"start":5035.285,"end":5060.425,"text":"既然憲法法庭的設置是為了維護人民的權利和憲政的秩序那就不能夠停擺最嚴重會被影響的會是人民和機關尋求救濟或是解決憲法爭議的權利不論是我們司法院、行政院還是立法院都必須去維護我們憲法法庭的實質運作我相信這是民眾所期待的"},{"start":5061.185,"end":5077.382,"text":"另外一個議題我想請教兩位,就是近年來國安洩密、共諜事件頻繁包括近期討論的富康聯盟黨涉嫌收受中共的金援作為解放軍的內應"},{"start":5078.863,"end":5098.251,"text":"那在去年以違反國安法被台中高分檢起訴那現在由這個台中高分院審理當中我們也看到國安局提出共諜案滲透手法的這個分析從2024年案件來分析主要是勾結黑幫來發展武裝內應開設地下錢莊來"},{"start":5101.832,"end":5129.211,"text":"引誘投共 滲透我們在地的宮廟還有成立統戰組織動員來介入選舉以及透過網路的平台來佈建組織等等的這些方式那中共的滲透目標 管道 守法還有墓地可以說是五花八門 無孔不入我們法務部調查局和我們的檢察署如何來因應"},{"start":5130.729,"end":5132.233,"text":"這個偵辦的量能是否充足"},{"start":5133.752,"end":5160.36,"text":"跟我們報告國安案件事實上當然我們非常的重視也列為全國檢察機關偵辦案件的重點所以目前我們動員偵查能量會全力投入相關案件的偵訪那麼由最高檢察署檢察中長來統合所有案件的情資並由告點檢察署來督導執行會結合偵查保防跟情報系統來綜合研判之後投入偵辦"},{"start":5161.66,"end":5169.148,"text":"所以在這兩年來我們其實也辦了很多指標性的案件也會持續用最高的規格來辦理相關的業務"},{"start":5173.868,"end":5192.884,"text":"好 那由於我們這個國安的這個案件 具有機敏性和高度的專業性那會需要和國防還有國安單位來配合那針對重要的這些議題共同來討論 也需要提出對策來研議那來提升我們辦案的專業"},{"start":5193.704,"end":5206.695,"text":"國安局的報告有提及為了因應中共多元的這種滲透手法包括情報機關還有我們軍中的保防單位以及法務部的檢調部門已經都建立起協作的機制"},{"start":5209.938,"end":5225.448,"text":"就這一次這樣子我想請教次長你所了解的法務部是如何來協作所謂的國安共同威脅的圖像這個協作的這個機制未來應該要如何來精進以提高我們國安案件的這個辦案的成效"},{"start":5225.768,"end":5241.619,"text":"是跟委員報告陳柱剛所說我們在最高檢察署跟台高檢署都有成立相關單位我們在各檢察機關也設國安的專組尤其對於國安法剛委員所提到這種發展組織的案件它是由高檢署來偵辦"},{"start":5243.48,"end":5261.516,"text":"台高檢署跟分署進來 辦案的績效也一直在提升事務外見發生的時候 剛剛委員所提到的跟相關的軍事單位的聯繫平台是由最高檢察署來統合所以我們會結合軍事的情緒來源充分跟軍事機關橫向溝通 徵詢意見來強化我們的偵辦效能"},{"start":5265.011,"end":5287.273,"text":"好這我們期待,那在上週這個陸委會的副主委提出呼籲要把這個國安的案件當作特殊的案件來處理那並提出應該設立專門的這種國安法庭但是在我們司法院後來的這個澄清資訊裡面看到我們112年當時配合國安法第19條的施行"},{"start":5289.315,"end":5318.116,"text":"司法院已經修正相關的辦法要求各地院還有高院及分院對國安法這個案件成立專案法庭或專股辦理因此想先就叫我們複密這個針對國安軍事專業的這個案件所含括的這個案件類型我們各地院高院和分院是否都已經成立這個國安專庭或是專股來承辦案件"},{"start":5318.697,"end":5344.017,"text":"好謝謝委員垂詢是的在那個112年12月就是本院因為那個國安法那個修正之後呢就是修正了我們的那個司法事務分配規範法那就目前所有的普通法院全部的各個法院全部都已經成立了那個專庭或者是專股來辦理已經都成立了對全部的法院"},{"start":5344.991,"end":5353.397,"text":"好 那我想再就教一下是否我們這個政府院長懸缺的導致設置進度停滯 跟這個有沒有關係"},{"start":5357.205,"end":5373.084,"text":"是沒有那個設置停滯的那個問題就是全部的法院每一個法院都已經有那個專庭了那他們那個專庭那個法官呢他們也都要那個接受那個相當的那個專業訓練就是也有規定一年最少要12個小時的專業訓練以上"},{"start":5376.647,"end":5403.121,"text":"好 那我們這個國安的這個案件是很大的一個題目那尤其是在當前中共滲透變本加厲那更值得關注同時也是在院紀之間跨部會共同要來努力防堵的一個破口那以確保我們國家的安全礙於這個詢答時間有限那後續如果還有機會的話再跟我們相關部會做討論謝謝複密還有我們的次長謝謝委員"},{"start":5405.822,"end":5425.28,"text":"好 謝謝 那下一位我們請羅志強委員主席我先程序發言 請說剛剛鍾嘉斌委員在發言的時候我幫他算了一下 預時五分鐘左右啦那基本上我們也就是靜靜的聽他講我也沒在他發言的時候干擾他"},{"start":5426.499,"end":5454.908,"text":"我這邊要說一件事 剛剛蔡英文底下黃國昌在質詢的時候底下在那邊叫囂如果說今天民進黨的委員你們都非常準時你們都不預時你們過去齁 時間到了你們就下來羅志強沒有意見是嗎每次人到柯建民的時候大家沒見到嗎預時從10分鐘20分鐘30分鐘40分鐘起跳民進黨的人有講一句話嗎"},{"start":5457.116,"end":5486.233,"text":"所以我剛剛要特別強調的是什麼就是主席召委在主持的時候那他自然會去做時間的控制但每個召委的做法不一樣像中線召委他就很尊重大家的發言時間基本上讓大家自己來去控制自己發言時間這個標準不是只對黃國昌適用也不是只對羅志強適用也對鍾嘉斌適用啊"},{"start":5487.622,"end":5503.04,"text":"那為什麼今天別人在發言的時候在底下用叫囂的方式去干擾別人呢所以在這邊這個程序不容忍還是要說明一下剛剛朱家斌在那邊罵我說我在護航黃國昌 抱歉喔我護航的是公平正義 不要雙標"},{"start":5504.588,"end":5528.887,"text":"如果今天民進黨做得到不獄死那今天羅志強沒有話說但是最愛獄死的就是民進黨那我也不懂為什麼鍾嘉賓老是要把臉受傷讓大家打呢就像昨天安排那個什麼奇怪的報告前天安排什麼奇怪的報告講現行犯自己就是現行犯還要弄一個什麼妨害司法公正現行犯的報告真的不需要這樣子"},{"start":5531.124,"end":5559.964,"text":"好 謝謝羅委員那因為我主持會議喔到現在已經兩個會期了嘛那我主持的習慣大家應該看得很清楚就是基本上我會尊重發言委員的發言那當然很多委員其實他都預時很久甚至請他下來請不下來幫他那個幫他消音他也還是繼續吼所以我想說我還是一樣就是基本尊重每一位委員的發言那我們也希望說發言委員在發言的時候"},{"start":5560.444,"end":5586.531,"text":"那非發言委員就不要干擾發言委員的發言那如果有任何程序上面的問題都可以在發言結束之後隨時提出來由主席這邊來做決定或是由主席這邊來回答這個是沒有問題的好那接下來我們就請羅志強委員發言請王副秘書長然後我們王副秘對兩位廳長還有我們黃次長次長"},{"start":5594.175,"end":5605.084,"text":"我想先請教我們副秘書長卓院長1月9號說根據司法院的統計憲法訴訟法當中人民申請的案件超過99%對不對"},{"start":5608.447,"end":5620.9,"text":"那我向司法院索取的資料顯示 自憲法法庭111年1月1日上路到113年底 申請案件一共是7254件其中7127件是人民申請 大概是98.25"},{"start":5628.328,"end":5645.882,"text":"行政院舉這個數字 我覺得他想要講的東西很清楚啦他說憲法法庭停擺對人民影響很大七千件的案子看起來很多但我想請教一下司法院人民向憲法法庭申請的終結案件裡面受理的比例大概是多少 這七千件我告訴你啦 好不好這也是你們給我的數字"},{"start":5654.651,"end":5676.524,"text":"總共有6716件終結其中只有211件有受理判決36件實體裁定1件並案174件換句話說受理率就是3.14%直接被裁定的不受理的高達6307件人民申請案佔98%但人民申請案有94%是不受理的"},{"start":5681.343,"end":5697.839,"text":"那我再想請教 機關申請案終結實踐裡面有幾件受理您不知道我再告訴你 數字錯誤再更正我 也是你們提供的八件 受理率高達八成我要跟大家講"},{"start":5699.11,"end":5712.7,"text":"我們民進黨卓榮泰喜歡拿人民的申請件數99%來說憲法法庭是人民的守護神但從數據來看他打槍94%的人民不受理而對於機關申請就80%就是受理"},{"start":5716.603,"end":5743.913,"text":"這樣差距我覺得99%的人民有沒有辦法接受為什麼憲法法庭這個時候在他們來講好像非常的急迫需要做所謂的預防性的救濟然後要開一個巧門來去針對立法院通過的法律想要來搞一個比暫時處分更偉大的暫時處分這我們後面再講就是拿人民當藉口那接下來我再想請教一下我們副秘書長"},{"start":5746.155,"end":5755.23,"text":"請問司法院啊 憲法法庭如果說 停擺兩個月會影響到多少件申請案我請那個廳長回答好嗎 可以請"},{"start":5759.335,"end":5765.658,"text":"跟我們說明 因為我們審查庭是如常運作所以有關於不受理的案子我們可以繼續進行如常運作 我先跟你講 你們有411件還未結的"},{"start":5779.625,"end":5805.541,"text":"然後呢 受理率3.14%你剛剛講的還可以繼續受理啦總共大概就是13件左右那一般來說這按照過去你們的受理率來看的話有高達386件就是被裁定不受理時間推估的話憲法法庭上路受理的是278件平均每月7.72件而且大部分是病案 有174件是病案所以真正做出判決是36件"},{"start":5808.222,"end":5829.81,"text":"我這樣數字沒錯吧 判決是51件沒關係 每個月判決大概是一點多案那我要跟你講 你知道按照我們限訴法的新制當大法官的提名沒有被通過的時候 總統要在多少期間內補足提名按照這次的三讀修正條文是兩個月"},{"start":5832.65,"end":5857.43,"text":"兩個月能夠影響的案件大概三到四案 三到五案啦我剛剛講以受理的情況來講 受理率算進去但這個部分可能還要考慮國會同意的時程沒關係啊 國會同意時程每一個月再加兩個案子嘛 再加兩個案子這是所謂講的影響 好 那接下來我要告訴你我想請教你 你所謂的預防性的救濟 要預防什麼"},{"start":5861.807,"end":5881.351,"text":"要預防什麼針對我們今天憲法訴訟法通過今天要去採取所謂預防性權力救濟比照預防性權力救濟是要預防什麼預防那個權力在將來可能受到侵害什麼樣的權力受到侵害啊什麼樣的權力受到侵害 答不出來啊"},{"start":5887.659,"end":5916.599,"text":"我們今天執政黨今天這個所謂的他愛怎麼樣去決定我們憲政就怎麼決定憲政這個權利受侵害嗎是什麼權利受侵害包委員剛才講的是那個一般的就是因為好啦那我問你下一個問題好了那急迫什麼請問急迫什麼我直接幫你講啦民進黨的邏輯就是說憲法法庭會被癱瘓啦要預防憲法法庭被癱瘓啦這政治問題我不為難你不回答啦"},{"start":5917.742,"end":5944.405,"text":"那我想請問急迫什麼在急迫什麼急迫憲法法庭會被癱瘓嘛對不對我看不到別的理由啊只有這個理由啊說憲法法庭會被癱瘓所以要預防被癱瘓啊我還先不講到底說能不能準用行政訴訟法啦我先不講這一塊我只講這個部分他預防所謂憲法法庭被癱瘓那我就要問急迫性在哪裡"},{"start":5946.373,"end":5970.32,"text":"剛剛聽長已經回答了先訴法新制總統幾個月內要提出提名單幾個月兩個月兩個月啊那急迫是什麼在下一口就要請教您喔真的那麼急迫的話那我想請教今天劉靜儀大法官的被提名人你總知道是被誰否決的吧被誰否決的"},{"start":5975.151,"end":5997.528,"text":"被民進黨否決的啊被民進黨否決的啊所以照民進黨那種奇怪的邏輯為了大法官今天不要被癱瘓真的該究責是賴清德啊不是嗎現在大法官現在有剩下多少位大法官在任幾位"},{"start":5998.274,"end":6021.065,"text":"目前是八位 按照新制憲法訴訟法幾位就能開庭審理法案了十位 差幾位 兩位啊你賴清德要嘛就怪賴清德你提名一個連民進黨都沒辦法接受的劉靜儀還是因為要怪就怪民進黨劉靜儀是事任的結果民進黨因為他罵民進黨就把他否決掉"},{"start":6025.033,"end":6042.149,"text":"郵寄一進去 八個就變九個 只剩一個囉 只剩一個囉兩個月提一個我就舉個例子啊 兩個月內如果你提的是宗嘉賓 抱歉我也沒辦法接受 我一定投反對票啊但是如果提你王梅依搞不好我考慮啊 不是嗎"},{"start":6043.826,"end":6063.514,"text":"我要的不是什麼了不起我要的是中立啦只要你做到中立你不要偏頗你有法學素養你的積極資格符合今天大法官提名資格你就有可能通過啊可是今天你要搞到說憲法法庭會被癱瘓你要跟我講有急迫性問題罪魁禍首是誰罪魁禍首是誰你一定答不出來來我們請我們次長來打是國會嗎"},{"start":6075.367,"end":6090.311,"text":"還是民進黨 民進黨為什麼要把那個劉靜儀推翻掉你告訴我 你也當過民進黨的黨員啊你代表民進黨參選過立法委員啊你也當過立法委員啊你現在跟我講為什麼民進黨要推翻劉靜儀的大法官的任命是在癱瘓大法官嗎這麼急迫欸 兩個月不能等欸你們竟然還把劉靜儀弄掉你民進黨可惡嘛市長我這樣講對不對啊"},{"start":6101.567,"end":6129.687,"text":"我想這個投票的時候各黨團都有決議啊對啊 非常好 就你民進黨有投進去啊所以找藉口 找到什麼藉口連什麼預防性救濟都拿出來當藉口你這要預防是預防今天民進黨濫權戴興德獨裁啊 這才該預防的啊大法官要不要去預防一下啊你真的講急迫 那你就把戴興德抓出來嘛"},{"start":6130.796,"end":6159.83,"text":"我們慶德總統這麼急迫欸那你好好提名一個人你不要提名到連你民進黨都不能接受的人那今天大法官就過啦 十個人就滿啦就能夠開會啦不是嗎賴慶德今天好好提名好好提名再兩個他要提名七個 只要兩個再兩個兩個月內大法官的人數就滿了"},{"start":6161.53,"end":6182.093,"text":"不是嗎我再請教副秘書長我想請教您我實在是不懂今天這個所謂的到底預防誰 擊破誰是不是預防今天民進黨濫權還是今天擊破賴清德不提四任的大法官人選你等個兩個月 三個月等不及沒辦法等"},{"start":6183.2,"end":6207.52,"text":"我覺得今天你們大法官如果接受這個所謂預防性的救濟的申請你是瞧不起賴清德你是已經知道賴清德不會提出讓人民接受讓多數民意接受的大法官人選嘛你根本瞧不起所以你才會說今天如果今天我不把這個新的憲法訴訟法推翻的話大法官就會被癱瘓癱瘓不會被癱瘓的怎麼會被癱瘓"},{"start":6212.503,"end":6240.905,"text":"大法官怎麼會被攤換賴清德再提兩個人 民進黨不要打臉賴清德就結束啦大法官就可以繼續審案啦我就問秘書長嘛如果今天賴清德再提七個人有兩個被同意了 請問大法官能不能開會了其實大法官現在是可以開會 當然只是不能做緊急處分跟所謂不能做違憲的審查而已嘛 對不對不能做違憲判決而已 以新法來說嘛 對不對"},{"start":6243.032,"end":6262.028,"text":"那我就問嘛 只要今天兩個月內賴清德提了兩個 只要兩個 七個提兩個是在野黨一起商量 覺得中立不是黨議大法官通過了 請問十個人是不是就滿了賴清德符合最低的十個人答對了嘛 就可以開會了嘛沒錯吧 你看我們副部長我跟妳講副部長這種態度就是正確的賴清德趕快提名你啦 好不好"},{"start":6270.433,"end":6293.96,"text":"真的啊 你不要提名中下兵 提名你機率大一點那最後我要講什麼 我要講就是今天就像說秘書長 你們司法院曾經考察過傑克的憲法法庭嘛 對不對他們的那個大法官人數多少 幾個15個嘛 他們最低出席人數幾個"},{"start":6296.003,"end":6312.337,"text":"在一些特定案件,對,十個嘛然後那個門檻,違憲審查的門檻幾個?九個嘛跟我們現在憲法訴訟法一模一樣你們所考察捷克法院你們的結論是借進捷克憲法法庭的對不對,沒錯吧你們報告有這樣寫的喔,沒錯吧"},{"start":6319.483,"end":6345.831,"text":"你上次有來這邊練習耶你的報告有這樣寫你不會不記得吧這記性這樣子不對喔沒錯吧正確用語我沒有辦法記得藉盡捷克憲法法庭嘛這個我們那天質詢整天的重點你跟我講現在精確用語你用不出來你把報告調出來那我就要問下一個問題啊那天鍾嘉賓死不肯讓你回答的問題我今天直接問你"},{"start":6347.472,"end":6371.684,"text":"你講那個捷克有配套嘛對不對是你說兩個月內必須行使同意權嘛對不對行使同意權是今天要投票同意跟不同意嘛對不對兩個月內嘛是這是他們國會的職權對啊但是沒有規定說今天兩個月要投票同意不同意是兩個月內我規定非投同意不可嘛對不對不是吧"},{"start":6373.407,"end":6400.268,"text":"同意權行使是可投同意可投不同意國會的權利嘛 對不對謝謝你啊那我就要問一件事情如果今天捷克的總統提阿狗阿貓對不對阿槍阿什麼就是一些奇奇怪怪的人提大法官進來然後捷克的國會說不行欸你這樣子提我們真的沒辦法接受欸刷掉結果因為刷掉捷克的憲法法庭剩下八個人"},{"start":6401.602,"end":6419.015,"text":"這叫癱瘓憲法法庭嗎你認為這個癱瘓責任是算給捷克總統還是算給國會今天如果捷克總統提一個阿狗阿貓就是黨議大法官結果國會說不行 我們代表民意不能接受啊憲法法庭因為不滿十個人 照你剛剛講也不能開會嘛 對不對那請問癱瘓責任是國會還是今天總統在捷克來講我告訴你是總統"},{"start":6430.498,"end":6445.307,"text":"是總統兩個人你都沒有辦法得到你提兩個公正的人都做不到同樣的如果捷克總統補題的人捷克的法院再同意了兩個他的法庭就能夠開會有癱瘓問題嗎沒有癱瘓問題今天我就問副秘書長我們這憲政設計大法官是誰提名有總統提名誰同意"},{"start":6459.144,"end":6485.541,"text":"國會立法委員那為什麼要立法委員同意這是那個權利分立答對了嘛 權利分立嘛我們代表民意嘛我們是人民一票一票選出來的嘛所以我非常反對過去曾有大法官說大法官不用理民意你認為大法官不用理民意嗎不需要嗎大法官是超脫於民意之上行走在人世間的神嗎 是嗎"},{"start":6486.986,"end":6511.713,"text":"如果是這樣這個憲法這個法律這個憲法條例直接廢掉大法官不需要立法院同意要需要立法院同意就是希望說今天大法官不能夠不死人間煙火那同樣回到還是最根本的問題啊那今天賴清德如果民進黨立法院是你是多數行政立法多數一致的時候當然你愛提誰就提誰我們也沒辦法這人民決定的"},{"start":6512.591,"end":6541.193,"text":"可是當立法的多數跟行政的多數行政的總統是不一樣的時候他才會今天有今天我們憲政這個設計嘛所以回頭還是要強調一件事情少拿憲法法庭攤換這件事如果憲法法庭真的攤換是因為賴清德你就堅持要用黨議大法官你就堅持不肯提兩個今天跟立法院多數民意商量的大法官你再兩個月提出來"},{"start":6542.967,"end":6564.701,"text":"就沒有今天你們民進黨說什麼癱瘓的問題那我這邊也要鄭重的拜託跟勸告我們大法官沒有急迫性哪有急迫性預防性的權益救濟申請對不對你要有一個預防的標的那預防誰預防爛性的爛權才對啊第二個是要有急迫性急迫是什麼"},{"start":6565.936,"end":6594.213,"text":"如果你認為今天這個書法通過之後大法官永遠不能開會你是對賴清德最大的玷污你就認為賴清德就是一個不顧名義強悍然後霸道的總統他一定不會提出一個讓人民滿意讓今天多數同意的兩個大法官人選你憑什麼大法官做這樣的預判啊預判賴清德的預判嗎可以這樣嗎"},{"start":6596.437,"end":6610.824,"text":"所以真的民進黨搞出這種權力預防性 權力救濟就是憲政的笑話一場 謝謝謝謝 那在接下來麻煩吳志強委員代理主席有請吳宗憲委員"},{"start":6631.854,"end":6634.518,"text":"謝謝 我們麻煩王副秘以及楊廳長"},{"start":6645.158,"end":6665.807,"text":"我先請教兩位就延續剛剛黃國昌委員的問題啦因為如果跟黃國昌委員的問題重複的那我就不會再問那我先請教一下兩位那到底到現在為止有沒有任何一個機關或是個人對於這一次"},{"start":6667.208,"end":6674.804,"text":"憲法訴訟法的部分有提起說要預防性的權力救濟是否有人有向司法院提了"},{"start":6676.772,"end":6697.906,"text":"跟委員說明那個如果說針對的是暫時處分因為根據司法院的報告我們把預防性的權利救濟跟暫時權利救濟是分開處理的那如果是以目前所謂預防性權利救濟假如是定位在準用行政訴訟法或民事訴訟法的將來給付支訴的話就我的了解目前是沒有"},{"start":6698.086,"end":6721.12,"text":"那你剛說的另外一個呢那如果是暫時處分的話剛剛我回答黃委員的部分就是說目前針對限訴法申請暫時處分的有是誰我今天早上來的時候得到的數據是人民有申請然後剛剛就在開會期間然後我們書記廳的同仁有傳訊給我我們今天有收到民進黨委員具狀申請法規範憲法審查以及暫時處分"},{"start":6722.921,"end":6740.934,"text":"好 那所以我們現在可以了解一下就是說確實民進黨委員以及有人民已經向司法院提起暫時處分就限訴法的部分 這個沒有問題了嘛 我們就確認下來好 那我想請問一下喔 那憲法訴訟法它的限訴法的主管機關到底是誰啊"},{"start":6743.65,"end":6759.802,"text":"請問法規主管局管理事司法院那應該不是行政院嘛我沒有講錯嘛不是行政院嘛但是行政院卻對這次憲法訴訟法非常的反彈啦所以我想說這個大家也都知道啦那當然也有政委提出一些"},{"start":6761.243,"end":6786.453,"text":"很特殊的法律見解 希望怎麼做 那我們都予以尊重因為我是尊重學者 我也尊重念法律法律就同一法律事件 本來就是有各式各樣的學說所以如果他希望採極端的少數說 我們也予以尊重因為有一些大學的老師 他的學說常常都是極端的少數說那我們都會尊重這些想法但是在實務上面可不可以適用 這又是另外一件事情"},{"start":6787.313,"end":6801.227,"text":"那我想請教一下 如果行政院不是限訴法的主管機關那行政院可不可以對限訴法來申請釋憲或是申請那個暫時處分或是預防性的權利救濟 請教一下"},{"start":6803.021,"end":6811.951,"text":"各位說明那因為在憲法上面復議權是專屬於行政院那所以這個部分我們尊重行政院他行使復議權不是復議權我剛不是說復議權我剛說對限訴法提起釋憲那請問一下可以嗎"},{"start":6818.337,"end":6838.033,"text":"這個部分就是國家最高機關對於法規範這個部分如果他在行使職權的時候他認為法律有違憲的部分然後按照我們限訴法的規定因為行政院統署國家最高機關那他當然可以提議申請至於申請以後受不受理那當然是由憲法法庭決定好 謝謝 就是"},{"start":6838.473,"end":6860.845,"text":"所以你剛剛也沒有回答到問題就是他可以申請但是受不受理是現在法庭決定這答案是這樣那好 我也講一下這一次呢其實很明確的嘛就是大法官總額就15人嘛那剛剛你們有回答到由總統提名然後立法院來這邊來審核嘛對不對然後如果不足人數的話總統要在兩個月內補題人數那因為我一直認為說這跟行政"},{"start":6865.367,"end":6890.283,"text":"院的職權實在也沒有什麼特別的關係啦那我反而覺得比較奇怪的就是說那現在怠惰的好像是總統啦因為總統要趕快提啊你被立法院否決的時候總統怎麼不趕快提那一直不提所以才會卡在那裡所以我到現在來看癱瘓憲法法庭的是總統啊因為憲訴法如果這次過了依照新修正的來看"},{"start":6891.184,"end":6918.887,"text":"那你目前人數不夠 所以總統就要趕快提嘛我們也希望趕快補足到最低10人的門檻那過了以後就可以開始審理嘛可是總統一直不提 然後又僵在那裡然後又要提一個什麼 又有人在政委提到說預防性的權力救濟我覺得那個權力的力是哪一個字 待會我再給你們看那我想請問一下如果是上位生效的法律啊那這個判決"},{"start":6921.125,"end":6943.91,"text":"判決違憲要讓他失效 那這個暫時處分凍結他的效率我實在不太懂 既然還沒有生效的法律 那要怎麼樣認定要他失效呢 要怎麼樣處理 我不懂耶他有訴訟上的利益嗎 他根本都還沒有生效的法律那我們要暫時處分讓他不生效 我不太懂耶 我想麻煩廳長能夠解釋一下"},{"start":6947.746,"end":6973.938,"text":"公務員說明這個部分當然因為實際上如果是針對尚未生效的法律來申請釋憲那這個部分因為是已經細數的案件所以我們在這邊不方便說不方便說 好那過往的例子很簡單嘛585號 599號都有提過暫時處分嘛但是那個都是對於生效的法律我想這 廳長我沒有講錯吧對不對 那如果是這樣子的話我真的不了解對於一個"},{"start":6975.154,"end":7003.811,"text":"如果對於生效的東西我們希望他不生效那當然我們提個暫時處分來維護我們的利益這個我可以理解但是對於一個尚未生效的法律我先預先這麼做說真的我真的沒有辦法理解大法官最後會怎麼認定如果他認定是准許的話我還真的很想拜讀一下這幾位大法官的大作當然啦 憲判八 憲判九已經讓我對於大法官的這麼偉大的論述我已經非常"},{"start":7005.03,"end":7030.318,"text":"非常崇拜的 這已經超過我能想像的啦那當然我們的論點在大法官的不同意見書裡面也有所以有時候人家說我們的見解跟最終宪判八或宪判九的邏輯不一樣我們就被罵法盲說我們是什麼 反正就說我們法盲但是我想說各位去看一下不同意見書裡面的強法其實跟我們一樣那些不同意見書的大法官也是法盲嘛所以我還是要講"},{"start":7033.076,"end":7053.833,"text":"這個還沒有生效的法律 你要他去定一個暫時處分然後不讓他效率停止適用嗎 還是怎麼樣我說真的 我還是想不出來這個邏輯要怎麼去推論我再提一個 其實我覺得這樣子的搞法 其實變成是"},{"start":7055.851,"end":7073.032,"text":"而大法官好像是完全取代了立法權的地位了嘛那所以如果這樣搞下去是不是只要民進黨不想通過的法律我全部都來搞這一套不管他生效與否已經生效了那當然他又要搞就像上次那個"},{"start":7074.167,"end":7095.647,"text":"像法庭一樣他就來先不讓你運作那還沒有生效的他照樣要搞我覺得國家的法律制度是這樣我以為我以前念法律兩位都是我的學長以前我認為法律是長治久安我國最早的法律定制到現在已經破百年了嘛譬如說刑法民國三年就定了"},{"start":7096.187,"end":7124.018,"text":"那本來我們以為法律就是一個強制久安的東西大家要去遵守但是到這幾年來全部被玩弄所以我們的制度很多都毀掉了文官制度也毀掉了然後一些法律訴訟上面的觀念也都毀掉了立法的制度也毀掉了五權分立的制度也毀掉了然後到現在他還甚至立法院投票投書人不甘願然後來打架後來也打書人"},{"start":7124.978,"end":7151.01,"text":"投票投輸人 打架打輸人然後到最後是我棄守立法院這一塊我退居到二線來跟你玩大法官四線所以我自己來看政府的這套玩法其實是在短短幾年內摧毀百年的國家法律制度然後從上一次我覺得NCC主委那次NCC組織法我覺得最誇張百年來我國法治立法權給行政權的一個"},{"start":7152.33,"end":7180.735,"text":"施行日由行政院以命令定之百年來的這個東西沒有人會去挑戰這個東西因為這個是立法權的一個恩惠給行政權讓他在運作上面方便給他一個日出條款由行政院來訂定竟然可以在NCC這個小小的官位就把這個制度給毀掉百年的制度民進黨為了一個小小NCC的官位可以把這個日出條款的制度完全摧毀"},{"start":7181.795,"end":7193.446,"text":"就是我覺得我念法律我真的想到這個有時候晚上真的是會傷心到睡不著我本來以為一個法律制度百年以前人訂立出來這些東西"},{"start":7194.673,"end":7220.495,"text":"我們後代子孫就是享受當年的這個智慧成果我們好好的運行下去就沒想到可以在歷次的個案裡面一個一個把它破壞掉而且都是為了單一一個個案眼前的那個利益NCC主委 NCC組織法那就是一個非常非常難看的一件事情可以把給行政權一個彈性讓他可以用命令定之實行之這個東西都把它摧毀我覺得這"},{"start":7221.656,"end":7233.773,"text":"我覺得是瘋狂了啦這種執政的玩法已經到瘋狂那這一次也是啦你今天法律還沒有通過然後你今天就要搞一個戰時權力救濟或者是要搞一個"},{"start":7235.236,"end":7263.09,"text":"一些奇怪怪莫名其妙的方式因為這些東西都會成為案例將來也會成為判例一件一件都影響到將來我們的子子孫孫在面對這套法律的時候的問題嘛所以我想兩位也是跟我一樣司法官出身的那我這邊不叫你們回答我不讓你們回答因為你們回答其實是要求你們回答這個事其實我覺得對兩位也不好但是我想我們"},{"start":7264.724,"end":7274.243,"text":"都曾經做過偵查審判的工作看到現在政府這種玩弄法律的方式其實是很傷 我覺得我們市長人應該是覺得傷心啦因為"},{"start":7274.946,"end":7298.076,"text":"我剛剛講的法律它的可貴在於我們需要它長治久安而不是總是以一個小小的個案為了政黨或派系或個人的利益每一次都把法律完爛掉每一套運作百年運作幾十年的法律我就把它完爛掉然後搞到現在立法院將來所有的法律通過都不會再給行政權"},{"start":7299.136,"end":7326.353,"text":"一個以命令定之的這個彈性了你不覺得很悲哀嗎百年前人家認為這個有必要因為要讓行政權彈性的運用就因為一個小小NCC主委的位置可以把這個摧毀所以我說我自己在看國家在運作我是非常的難過這件事情因為我以前的老師向前林三田老師因為他太太劉初之老師是我以前的導師"},{"start":7328.257,"end":7350.18,"text":"在廢除刑法100條等等的那些遊行我們都參加過我們也都認為因為這些東西要廢除掉才會讓台灣走向一個正常化的民主國家中華民國才能變成真正憲法上所說的民主共和國結果呢這幾年這樣玩越玩越爛我真的覺得難以想像啦就當年我們在奮鬥我們陪著這些"},{"start":7351.315,"end":7368.375,"text":"黨外人士 民進黨人士 或者是很多老師 很多社會運動團體我們上街頭了那麼多次我們最後得到的是什麼一個政黨拼命的在摧毀我們的法律制度別的東西我不懂但是我法律念了幾十年我是一次比一次難過啦那尤其是像這一次"},{"start":7369.79,"end":7384.198,"text":"如果這套搞法三讀通過施行的法律他也用就直接控制幾個大法官就把你認為違憲或甚至連生肖都還沒生肖的法律他也要搞一個大法官來幫你處理掉這個都是我覺得立法院幾乎可以廢掉了"},{"start":7386.161,"end":7404.013,"text":"要嘛以後叫大法官來列席說我們這條法律可不可以立 變這樣第二個就是說立完法律之後馬上送給大法官 請問大法官們你們認不認同 認同就生效 可以變這樣嗎那剛剛複密你講的權力分立的概念在這個制度下就蕩然無存"},{"start":7406.441,"end":7429.958,"text":"我還是不這麼認為啦我還是認為現在的這個做法已經完全在摧毀我國的法治制度而且一年一年因為每一次個案事件就一次的把它摧毀掉所以我跟各位報告為什麼這次大法官會卡關第一個原因我在這邊講話我絕對負全部的責任第一個原因的發生是因為柯建民總召不願意送院會排案"},{"start":7431.138,"end":7451.616,"text":"我想各位立委都很清楚他的理由是什麼因為當時國會改革法案在釋憲中所以他認為這個東西的釋憲完畢之後再來審查大法官的人士他用這個當理由然後他就是堅持不送案不送案到最後整個大法官人選送到立法院了但是就沒有辦法到院會去審查一直拖拖拖拖到最後"},{"start":7452.864,"end":7476.008,"text":"國會改革法案都釋憲完了 他還不送 搞到最後才送送了以後呢 就人選不OK啊不管國民黨 民眾黨 或民進黨都有覺得不OK的人選後來七位就都沒有過嘛那七位都沒有過的那一天開始總統可以隔天就再提一個新的名單出來啊但是總統都沒有提"},{"start":7477.114,"end":7497.762,"text":"結果民進黨那個造謠政黨或某些立委造謠習慣了就開始一直說國民黨民眾黨在癱瘓憲法法庭那我剛剛講到現在哪一個東西是我們在癱瘓因為你不把大法官人選送院會審查的是柯建民他不送院會審查就不能審查的結果"},{"start":7499.161,"end":7510.006,"text":"一直拖到然後來審查不過總統可以趕快提啊兩個月內就是隔天也可以提的意思嘛他也不提不提之後人數不夠結果現在就來罵說國民黨你們癱瘓憲法法庭這對還是不對啊這造謠習慣了嗎"},{"start":7515.988,"end":7535.675,"text":"所以我一直覺得很奇怪的一件事是說我從小要求自己要以誠信為基礎結果來立法院之後看不出來大家都在騙人耶然後每個人騙完人之後第二天也是神清氣爽的跟大家聊天沒有人為自己說謊或講錯話被發現然後覺得一絲一毫的慚愧這就是我國的立法院"},{"start":7539.402,"end":7564.417,"text":"我以前還沒進立法院的時候 我覺得每個立委看起來都覺得好大好厲害來這邊怎麼會那麼多人在說謊那麼多人在講錯話之後 然後也不用負責不用道歉然後第二天還可以非常精神抖擻的來我相信在法院在地檢署 法官檢察官如果幹了一個這個事情他第二天搞不好不敢來上班這我們司法人員對自己的嚴格要求 就在這裡完全看不到"},{"start":7567.438,"end":7592.793,"text":"因為時間關係我覺得有一些東西別人問過的我就不再問了所以我個人認為啦所謂的預防性的權力救濟已經不是民俗用法裡面那個例如說債務關係等等那種權力已經是力量的力 權力救濟因為他要救濟的是自己的執政權 統治權我看到的是這樣這個已經跟我們所知道的完全不一樣了"},{"start":7593.581,"end":7617.67,"text":"那如果說今天國人或民進黨委員一直覺得有人在癱瘓憲法法庭的話第一個要罵的是誰是總統賴清德為什麼你不趕快提嘛你趕快提人選讓我們審過兩個就可以運作了啊你為什麼不趕快提還有柯建民總召你當時為什麼要一直把我們的言當在那裡不讓我們送院會去審查大家一直叫你送院會結果你就是不送"},{"start":7618.73,"end":7626.417,"text":"要怪就怪這兩個人啦 不用怪其他人其他人就是認真的審核每一個人符不符合大法官的資格而已"},{"start":7627.438,"end":7649.194,"text":"我看到的就是這樣所以憲法法律應該是國人來遵守而不是讓國人來操弄我今天看到大家都是在操弄憲法法律已經各式各樣的程序只會滿足他單一一次的需求例如NCC主委單一一次他希望變成萬年主委他就給你玩這一套這看起來其實很悲哀我也希望全國人民能夠聽懂我在講什麼"},{"start":7649.955,"end":7677.903,"text":"我一直希望把法律以最白話的方式告訴全國國民我一直努力在做這件事情我希望讓大家看清楚誰在說謊誰總是在說謊而且他們明明知道自己在說謊他們也知道我們知道他們在說謊但他們持續繼續說謊而且不當一回事在我看來這丟臉人格是完全毀滅掉而且最近這幾天又發生了很多事也是很明顯的翻車打臉被說謊被發現一樣也不當一回事"},{"start":7680.475,"end":7696.233,"text":"那個司法院你們的網站你們回去看你們在講大法官的時候有一個圖這個是你們網站的圖你們上面也寫十位啊至少要有八位啊連你們都這樣講其實大法官的人數為什麼在很多國家他有一個最低"},{"start":7697.185,"end":7725.681,"text":"人數的要求 我想請教一下兩位韓國的話 憲法法庭他召開要幾位大法官出席他有幾位大法官 以及要幾位大法官出席韓國跟我們說明 就我了解他們有九位大法官那七個大法官出席好 那美國呢美國是九位大法官 六位大法官出席好 那請問一下那個 副秘書長德國你應該清楚的 德國是幾位德國他是分成兩庭 一庭八位"},{"start":7728.061,"end":7730.854,"text":"然後要多少人出席"},{"start":7733.354,"end":7758.529,"text":"這就是我跟各位說的世界各國為什麼他們在訂定大法官人數以及出席人數最低出席人數要用數字來定之因為他們不讓少數的大法官因為每個人專業不同而讓最後的憲法判決會出來過於極端所以我國的憲法為什麼以前規定三分之二以上要參與評議然後要過半以上才同意也是希望說"},{"start":7759.529,"end":7764.973,"text":"為什麼要三分之二 要十位 就是因為他們希望不可以留於單一的專業"},{"start":7766.601,"end":7796.001,"text":"因為每個人的專業不同有人書界有人學書界有人懂民法有人懂刑法他不會讓最後假設剩下三位大法官就都學民法了然後就來釋憲刑法的部分這個是最低門檻的要求所以剛剛羅志強我也有提到捷克的制度是我們這次借鏡的制度結果這些國家你們最愛的美國也是這樣規定大家韓流最愛的韓國也是這樣規定我國法律來源的德國也是這樣規定都有最低人數的"},{"start":7797.061,"end":7824.934,"text":"要求就在我國變成是一個毀憲亂政 毀壞國家讓憲法法庭癱瘓的理由了那這些國家都白癡嗎這些國家設定最低的大法官出席人數的要求都是白癡嗎所以這個又是一堆立委不懂法律 法盲又在騙人都在騙國人然後叫大家說有人在癱瘓憲法法庭可是實際上你回過頭去看誰在癱瘓憲法法庭然後上次有委員說"},{"start":7827.284,"end":7848.943,"text":"什麼 三位 最後變成三位大法官開庭他說這個是極端狀況 絕對不可能發生請問一下兩位 大家法律念幾十年了法律的設計不是就要思考到極端的狀況嗎不然我們刑罰那麼多打擊錯誤 或是什麼雷家的"},{"start":7852.197,"end":7876.453,"text":"犯罪原因的條件說等等的 那些在實務上一百年也不會遇到疑慮啊我們以前不是唸嗎 兩個人同時下毒 都各下二分之一就剛好這個人死亡 那我要負殺人罪還是殺人未遂所以這個都是在法律上本來就會 法律設計會處理很多極端的狀況嘛那如果依照現有的制度 還沒有生效的限訴法 有可能三位大法官就開庭了"},{"start":7877.304,"end":7898.364,"text":"那這三位就可以決定國家的一切我們就是要避免這個狀況發生所以我們才會就憲訴法要這樣要求就竟然被某幾個立委到這裡來講說這麼極端怎麼可能發生還有法學博士欸某法學博士的立委在這裡說這不可能發生 以前也沒發生過我知道啊 可是法律的設計本來就是在面對各種形形樣樣"},{"start":7899.625,"end":7921.11,"text":"的可能性嘛所以我們在念民法在念刑法的時候老師出的考題都是在實務上幾乎不太可能發生的但是從理論上面你要怎麼回答所以我覺得很痛苦就來這邊面對一堆法盲的人我們在然後跟我們爭執法律或是自己明明懂法律也知道自己講的是不對然後在那邊繼續騙人好所以這樣喔我想喔"},{"start":7926.209,"end":7947.473,"text":"我今天在這邊就是因為兩位都是學長那我在這邊就跟兩位我能提的就提到這邊那再麻煩就是說接下來的不管有沒有人申請再麻煩各位能夠依照我國的制度去處理因為我對於法律以及訴訟制度的認知就是今天這個法律設立了"},{"start":7949.113,"end":7971.589,"text":"就是要長治久安即使今天這個法律設計對我完全不利我的個性就是完全的服從它因為我是個遵守法律的人我是個遵守憲法的人我不會去玩弄憲法不會去玩弄法律那我也希望說司法院也能像我們這種當年分發的時候的那個初心一樣我到今天我沒有變過但很多在玩法律的人都變了好 謝謝兩位請審發會委員"},{"start":7991.838,"end":8011.573,"text":"我們的吳宗憲召委本來要問他問題的他不在我這樣講他我就有點不好意思,因為不喜歡在人家背後講時間的控制是做召委"},{"start":8012.918,"end":8030.825,"text":"所以我看到他一直前面的8加2的時間全部在罵民進黨罵完之後超時之後才開始講簡報了這個實在是已經做召委的人他自己要控制其他人的發言時間他自己應該要尊重時間那我先請這個副秘書長跟我們的黃次長請副秘書長跟次長"},{"start":8041.204,"end":8047.835,"text":"這個今天齁我這個原本看到這個題目齁看到我們吳釗偉齁來來來我剛講你壞話你不在我就不好意思"},{"start":8053.687,"end":8077.623,"text":"今天看到吳釗緯定這個題目,我其實是看到的時候是非常高度的肯定這個我們在司法法制委員會能夠討論這個有關於司法訴訟實務上面,關於預防性權力救濟的適用這樣子的一個就法理上面的一個主題來討論我個人其實那時候是非常肯定的,就覺得特別也希望聽到吳釗緯在質詢裡面"},{"start":8080.219,"end":8108.004,"text":"就針對我們的這個究竟這個司法實務訴訟上面這個關於預防性的這個權利救濟的適用的法理問題只有剛剛聽了十分鐘這個吳昭偉在台上罵民進黨罵了8加2之後才開始講檢報檢報之後也沒有在談這個預防性的這個權利救濟而是整個在為這個限訴法的這個修法做辯護"},{"start":8109.841,"end":8131.432,"text":"那就讓我就又有一點失望了我覺得今天這個主題其實它是有兩個層次的我講這按照我們吳釗偉所排的這個我覺得非常好他就是我們在學理上來探討學理上來探討究竟這個司法在司法訴訟實務上面關於這個預防性的權力救濟的適用這個學理上面有什麼樣的學說雖然我們剛剛釗偉提到認為說贊成在這個憲法訴訟裡面"},{"start":8137.715,"end":8154.127,"text":"運用這個預防性權力救濟他剛剛的描述說這是極端的少數學說那這個究竟是不是極端的少數學說我們等一下來討論至少這個有兩個層次一個是學理上面究竟能不能適用這個預防性權力救濟"},{"start":8155.953,"end":8174.482,"text":"另外就是說在實務個案上面我看結果今天大部分的討論從剛剛我從第一個到大部分的討論全部都集中在個案就是什麼個案就是這次限訴法究竟是不是能夠適用這個預防性權利究竟所以就是學術的討論是一件事"},{"start":8176.604,"end":8204.933,"text":"學說討論到底在憲法訴訟裡面是不是應該要適用這個預防性權利救濟這是學說上的討論那至於學說上討論有定論之後那我們才討論說那在個案上面這次的限訴法是不是能夠適用這個權利救濟結果剛剛所有的討論大概幾乎集中在這個我們這次限訴法的這個適用是否能夠適用我覺得很可惜啦所以我想就利用我這一點點時間就來跟這個我們司法院跟法務部來探討"},{"start":8206.571,"end":8224.733,"text":"我就要回到這個主題啦至於說這個限訴法到時候我們行政院他用什麼樣的方式救濟他可能可以在這個是不是他在這個法案生效之前就提出這個預防性權利救濟或者是在行政院長附屬之後但是總統公佈之後"},{"start":8226.909,"end":8254.518,"text":"但是法律還沒有生效的那三天內來提出提出這個這個申請暫時處分這是第二種方式第三個就是等生效法律生效之後他再來提起提出暫時處分對不對就這個個案上面是不是這樣子我想是不是請副院長回答這行政院他能夠他他可以用這樣三種方式提出來他會這提出這個有關限訴法的這個這個訴訟是不是這這有這三種方式時間點"},{"start":8256.583,"end":8279.876,"text":"報告委員這個據報紙上所呈現的這個部分是行政院他們選擇的那個救濟途徑那這邊本院就是基於司法行政立場不便做評論這三種方式一個是在法律生效前他就先提那這就是今天要討論的主題是不是能夠有預防性權力救濟的適用"},{"start":8284.679,"end":8311.721,"text":"那另外一個就是已經公布但是還沒有生效那也可能是今天的這個主題範圍那第三個就是等公布實施生效之後再來提憲法訴訟這個就不在今天的主題範圍裡面它就已經不是預防性的權利救濟了那這個我看你們的報告這個事實上我們從過去到現在看這個法務部跟司法院的意見在法務部"},{"start":8313.049,"end":8338.372,"text":"法務部的意見黃執掌這個我看你們在書面報告第四頁裡面你們也有提到在目前需要在你們提到說必須為了避免司法權對行政權有過度的干預所以必須在事後救濟已無實意的情形下時有事前救濟的必要性對不對這個是關於行政訴訟法上的"},{"start":8338.792,"end":8352.706,"text":"對 行政訴訟法上的那事實上實務這個是你們所提出來的看法但在實務的判決上面的參照我們參照實務判決裡面事實上這個包括最高行政法院的裁定這個2183號裁定還有這個98年度的1515號"},{"start":8357.29,"end":8381.678,"text":"判決裁定他們都有有關行政機關的作為如果對人民發生重大有重大損害之餘得以其他適當的方式避免者不再指限了都有用這些相關的這些判例他來讓這個這個這個可能的突破法律的這個規範的適用的這個框架的這樣子的途徑他有規定一些要件對不對"},{"start":8382.765,"end":8410.178,"text":"我想這個並沒有什麼突破法律因為解釋適用上行政訴訟法的一般給付處分就是第八條的裡面就解釋適用上包含了這種違法性的不作為處分高高的要件在很多時間的關係所以我沒有重複我們這個剛剛已經有提過的這些法律適用有關行政訴訟法這個行政程序法它用第115條來准用准用民事訴訟法"},{"start":8411.719,"end":8429.07,"text":"準用民宿訴訟法的246條啦那在憲法訴訟法裡面又用這個這個第46條憲法訴訟法第46條來而且參考這個行政訴訟法第307條之一的這個體例他來整個來適用行政訴訟這行政程序法再用行政程序法再來準用"},{"start":8430.95,"end":8445.385,"text":"這個民事訴訟法所以它是準用再準用之後就這個預防性的權力救濟是不是能夠適用如果用這一條的解釋這個贊成的方面他們就是認為應該"},{"start":8446.946,"end":8469.56,"text":"這是因為訴訟程序的規定就是很多會用這種方式准用是因為不用重複規定那法理相通的地方也有相關的案件可以來參照不過我們可以看得出來從行政訴訟法去准用民事訴訟法的時候其實它的要件都有一些不同那當然憲法訴訟法怎麼樣是憲法法庭才會自己去行政我知道這最後還是當然是取決於憲法法庭"},{"start":8470.14,"end":8487.852,"text":"我請問副秘書長現在我要問司法院的意見我們這過去的釋憲的實務或者是過去立審判決的實務上面是不是有預防性權力救濟的適用的例子有或者是有相似的情形可以做這個類推適用的情形有沒有請這個司法院這邊說明一下我請書記廳長回覆這個部分過去的釋憲實務跟立審判決的實務"},{"start":8493.716,"end":8510.213,"text":"跟委員說明如果是以今天在我們報告裡面所定義的這個預防性的權利救濟那這個部分在過去的法制面跟實務面並沒有明確這樣具體的說法不過可以跟委員說明的是這是沒有具體的說法但是有沒有類似的情形可以類推的"},{"start":8510.834,"end":8536.744,"text":"如果要拿來說討論的話在舊治時代曾經有一種解釋類型是憲法疑義的解釋類型那這個憲法疑義的解釋類型在當時就有立法院立法委員在審議法案的時候認為審議中的法案有違反憲法的疑義申請大法官進行解釋不過這邊要說明的是這樣的一個解釋類型在憲法訴訟新制的時候已經把它刪除掉了以上有沒有這個可以這個支比這個"},{"start":8539.065,"end":8546.691,"text":"援引的這個法理或者是外國的立法力這個部分就我個人粗淺的了解並沒有這麼明確的說法好那這個齁我想剛才因為我們我們這個胡昭偉有特別講說齁贊成他認為齁在這個"},{"start":8562.797,"end":8584.998,"text":"關於預防性權力救濟在這個憲法訴訟上面的適用是極端少數的學說吳釗瑋剛才說這是極端少數的學說但是事實上它是不是極端少數的學說或者說就這個憲法解釋是不是能夠適用這個預防性的暫時處分這樣的做法事實上"},{"start":8586.687,"end":8614.927,"text":"我這個舉一個例子啦我們以這個當年馬英九總統所提名的大法官我們蘇永慶大法官他就在昨天在聯合報他就發表文章他的主旨當然是說政院務把憲法法律當工具這個立場是非常清楚的但是他在文章裡面非常清楚的寫到說違憲審查的制度設計是否只能以生效法律為客體答案不是那麼絕對的"},{"start":8616.923,"end":8633.304,"text":"答案不是那麼絕對這就表示什麼這就表示他在學說上面有贊成的有反對的這個是現在學術上面的現況至於你是贊成的到底是不是屬於極端的少數那個就變成是主觀判斷了連我們這個蘇永清前大法官他也說"},{"start":8635.106,"end":8658.047,"text":"是不是只能以生肖的法律為客體答案不是那麼絕對而且他後面還提到說法國過去採用這樣的制度那德國憲法法庭的建制初期也對抽象的這個憲政問題表示過同樣的這樣的看法也就是說這不是所謂極端少數的學說而是他確實是在世界外國立法律上面也有採用而且他是不是"},{"start":8658.968,"end":8687.986,"text":"一定要以生肖的法律作為這個釋憲的這個課題這個東西不是那麼絕對這個我想是大家在學術上面大家基本上有共同的認知所以這個我想就學術上面他當然有贊成的有反對的不同意見那在實際上面究竟這個這次的這個限數法的修正可不可以"},{"start":8688.854,"end":8711.126,"text":"可不可以準用我們這個預防性權力救濟的方式來進行這個釋憲我想這個我問次長有沒有用我問民主黨有沒有用他最後還是取決於憲法法庭對不對我們立法院在這邊開會開到天翻地覆大家做表決一致同意起立鼓掌也沒有用還是最後還是要看憲法法庭對不對"},{"start":8713.171,"end":8728.159,"text":"我想這個問題我想今天我就釐清到這裡啦我也讓大家知道說這個東西並不是說在學術上面真的是所謂少數極端那另外接下來齁這個時間已經到了我再借兩分鐘啦我不會用十分鐘齁我這兩分鐘的時間我這個上個禮拜感謝感謝就兩分鐘齁這個另外一個議題啦齁這個"},{"start":8737.751,"end":8766.201,"text":"這個上個禮拜我們陸委會有提到說這個剛才陳俊宇委員大概也有就這個問題來詢問過我們司法院就是說我們這個陸委會在上個禮拜提到就是說這個呼籲法官要與時俱進要設立國安法庭那第二天我們司法院就發了這個新聞稿澄清說明就是說你們已經有設已經有設國安法庭了是不是"},{"start":8770.508,"end":8773.094,"text":"所有每一家法院都已經設了那這個"},{"start":8775.992,"end":8798.138,"text":"這個你們的設置不只一般民眾不知道啦連我們國家的陸委會都不知道你們有沒有設置所以可見你們這個有關於設置這個國安法庭的部分那大家看到這些目前社會上普遍輿論對於一些目前國安案件的這些相關的審判結果都認為說是不是因為我們沒有設專庭或者是我們的這個法官對於國安的這些相關的認知不夠"},{"start":8801.823,"end":8810.073,"text":"不夠專業啦齁但是結果我看你們的說明你們有提到說你們這個自109年起齁陸續舉辦國家安全研習會案例研習座談會邀集省檢國安檢察機關學者共同研討請國安機關安排"},{"start":8821.6,"end":8839.537,"text":"協助安排課程對不對是不是是的這個持續都一直在進行那我最後我就不再敘述了我就提出問題那請你們能夠回答就回答不能夠回答請你們用書面在三個月內提出一個書面報告就是說"},{"start":8841.247,"end":8858.573,"text":"現在法官參與你們所提到這些國家安全相關的研習會跟案例座談會目前法官的參與人數這是第一個問題第二問題是不是有成效的評估報告這是第二個問題第三個問題是不是所有審理國安案件的法官都必須強制接受相關的訓練"},{"start":8859.833,"end":8880.104,"text":"這是第三個問題第四個問題目前這個國家你們所提到的國安局軍事情報局海巡署等實地的教學是不是已經有固定的合作機制還是臨時性的安排是不是有具體的成果課程的具體的成果這是第四個問題請問一併回答到時候書面一併回答第五再來這個"},{"start":8882.028,"end":8902.668,"text":"我們目前有一個指引啦我看你們的新聞稿裡面有提到一個有焦點團體建議法院辦理國家安全犯罪樣態量刑審酌時已允註意事項的指引對不對目前有這個指引啦在實務上是不是已經被法官廣泛的採用這個指引這個是接下來另外一個問題最後一個問題"},{"start":8904.775,"end":8919.951,"text":"我們目前的這些審判採用的標準是不是有這個標準不一的情況的存在這些問題請在三個月內提出個書面報告可以嗎可以好 謝謝現在麻煩機關依據審委員的要求在三個月內提報告過來"},{"start":8922.821,"end":8936.632,"text":"謝謝 那現在我們請莊瑞雄委員那在莊瑞雄委員發言結束之後我們休息五分鐘那再就不好意思就麻煩謝謝莊委有請我們司法院副秘書長王副秘書長還有我們憲法法庭的書記廳廳長我們楊廳長師姐你先休息副秘書長好 廳長好"},{"start":8949.85,"end":8962.007,"text":"其實你們到司法法治委員會裡面來到底是不是叫備詢這個我也都很疑問了很疑問了機關跟機關之間尤其是憲政機關其實"},{"start":8964.912,"end":8984.946,"text":"立法院基於整個民意的一個要求有監督之者 這非常合理啦但是呢 憲政機關其實之間也必須有一個相互的一個尊重以這一次啊 我看今天召委排這個題目我倒覺得這是一個大哉問也非常值得探討的一個問題副秘書長也好 廳長也好"},{"start":8987.639,"end":9003.259,"text":"我這樣望眼看去整個立法院裡面如果說要談整個法學素養的深厚跟兩位來做較量的話立法院其實也不敢去講話太過於大聲但是民意機關嘛本來講話聲音就會比較大"},{"start":9004.259,"end":9029.327,"text":"才好像會彰顯一定的一個聲量可是我還是要針對問題來提問就是說以今天來看司法院來稱為提起憲法訴訟法的一個違憲的一個審查它到底這個機關到底它是不是提起的一個機關那我自己的一個看法我是認為說司法院如果真的有破例的話你們去提起釋憲"},{"start":9031.668,"end":9054.734,"text":"畢竟你們在新聞稿裡面就提到說整個憲法的訴訟法的修正通過造成憲政機關運作上的一個困難這個其實你們去提起也是一個選項透過釋憲的一個方式這個好像是司法院來提看起來是很矛盾光一個憲法法庭跟司法院的關係就讓外界可以討論得非常久了但是各級法院"},{"start":9055.794,"end":9078.449,"text":"本來現在是各級法院都可以法官都可以申請釋憲那你說過去你回溯到1995年4-371號的時候當初大審法的時候也只規定最高法院可以申請釋憲而已可是大法官在審理的時候自己的程序的時候他有去認知到各級法院的法官也都是依照法律在獨立審判"},{"start":9079.71,"end":9104.92,"text":"沒有道理說各級法院就不能去申請所以大法官就一錘定音停止適用只有最高法院可以提起釋憲這樣的一個條文當年1959年是這樣子所以在本席看來這件事情如果立法院這樣的一個憲政機關通過了一個法律然後去限縮甚至於貪玩到你整個司法院尤其是你憲法法庭的一個運作的話"},{"start":9106.089,"end":9131.167,"text":"那憲法法庭你總不能講說你這個憲訴法條文通過啦我基於我是司法機關那我也不便自己主動去提起然後呢因為條文讓它生效以後你的門檻就是這麼高沒辦法我憲法法庭我就註定要停擺如果司法院或者憲法法庭是基於這樣的一個思維的話這個叫做失職這個叫做怠惰這個是形同拒絕啊"},{"start":9132.635,"end":9158.613,"text":"憲法法庭啊你整個憲法賦予給你解釋法律到底有沒有違憲這樣的一個權限我不曉得副理事長或廳長你們的看法怎麼樣好啦 廳長大大講啦你那做有專業的你就講你的就沒關係了你沒有 跟委員報告就是說剛剛也有別的委員槌尋有關於司法院過去有沒有申請釋憲這部分我們也有回答那當然"},{"start":9159.974,"end":9178.564,"text":"憲促法的規定其實總統及五院針對這個行使職權的時候所使用的法規範有抵觸憲法的時候都可以來申請解釋憲法所以就司法院來說在法條上面的事格其實是毋庸疑問的當然啦 事實系條就講得很清楚啦你們就是司法最高機關啦"},{"start":9179.164,"end":9203.604,"text":"但陳柱剛委員所理解的就是說因為司法院在目前其實司法院院長他同時是司法行政的首長以及身兼憲法法庭審判長的情況之下那這個部分司法院是不是要以司法行政的機關的身份向憲法法庭來提出事先案這個部分可能要由這個我們的首長做全盤的橫著這個哪有問題你提起的話當然你會有迴避的問題啊"},{"start":9204.665,"end":9218.939,"text":"你是不是到最後你提起司法院院長你本身就迴避就好啦不是這樣子嗎如果真正你們提起了憲法法庭的時候當然你身為一個機關的一個代表人那你司法院院長當然要迴避啊是不是這樣說我是覺得你們是在下一盤大棋啦我個人解讀啦"},{"start":9226.687,"end":9254.842,"text":"以這一次來看的話我一直會認為說你在限訴法這樣通過以後呢你從過去還不叫憲法法庭大法官會議的時候啊你們所做出來的四至五百三十號裡面講得很清楚 我想廳長你也會很清楚啊審判獨立是基於整個權力分立跟制衡的一個原理啊你司法本來就有一個自主性啊"},{"start":9256.138,"end":9276.63,"text":"否則你說因為立法院基於民意所通過的一個法令然後把你整個憲法法庭全部給趟換掉你說 我不行我憲法法庭我完全沒有辦法去運作那變成老百姓把這個權利憲法把這個權利交給你們憲法法庭那你們不是太多嗎我不曉得你的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":9279.95,"end":9293.318,"text":"跟我說明就是說事實上你們可以講出很精闢的見解我都認為你身為一個廳長你可以你說副秘書長理的就比較屬於行政可是你們整個憲法法庭你們一個書記處的一個廳長你們看過多少號解釋"},{"start":9299.482,"end":9311.79,"text":"對不對 每一次大法官來做一個對憲法做出解釋 法律有沒有違背憲法的時候我相信你們都有接觸過很多精闢的一個見解這一個案件到現在來看 我不認為你們沒有著墨"},{"start":9315.615,"end":9342.057,"text":"回答委員的提問就是有關委員剛剛提到包括4-530還有過去在我們視線跟憲法訴訟判決時務那確實大法官或憲法法庭有關於憲法法庭的程序自主這個部分確實有過琢磨但是在具體的個案上面程序自主權如何的放射到什麼樣的範圍那因為目前我們討論的這個案子已經細數在憲法法庭"},{"start":9342.617,"end":9358.933,"text":"那身為司法行政我們真的不變多表示意見那可能就要看大法官他們在這樣的具體個案裡面他們怎麼去解釋適用憲法訴訟法其實如果要討論說整個現在系屬在憲法法庭的案件的話現在也有不少喔"},{"start":9359.614,"end":9382.85,"text":"就算憲訴法 你說複製了嘛 你說當它真正生效以後連憲法法庭在解釋這些案件 已經細數在法院這些案件的時候你總不能每一件都說 我現在評議 我現在人數根本全部都不夠我沒有達到這個門檻 我全部把老百姓申請的 全部不管是機關或老百姓所申請的"},{"start":9384.059,"end":9409.641,"text":"全部都不受理掉 全部癱瘓掉 每一件都不能解釋那要這個憲法法庭幹什麼那你們就完全受制於立法機關啊 這也不對啊立法機關當然是代表民意啊但是我們的憲法的設計不是只有單一的叫立法機關代表國家我們憲政機關不是只有立法機關啊我們憲政機關是權力分立啊我們憲政機關講的還是一個制衡的一個原理啊"},{"start":9410.882,"end":9420.907,"text":"所以我是覺得你們這樣扭扭捏捏我覺得廳長這樣聽起來好像也不對那以現在這一次來看你說行政院的政委提出的說預防性權利的一個救濟的一個可能性"},{"start":9422.796,"end":9445.012,"text":"以現在來看的話憲法訴訟法第一條開宗明義講的就這幾個類型我們很清楚可是以過去的案例大法官在解釋的時候他自己大法官的解釋大法官會議解釋等於現在憲法法庭的解釋他解釋出來就等於形同憲法不是嗎?聽到這個可以認同嗎?"},{"start":9446.437,"end":9454.287,"text":"是 他解釋不是來形同一個憲法那過去大法官在解釋大審法的時候他也跟你說你那個大審法不對"},{"start":9456.704,"end":9476.845,"text":"只有最高法院可以申請釋憲這是不對的因為本於整個基於審判獨立所有各級法院它全部都是獨立審判所以各個法院的法官他都可以獨立提出申請把整個大審法就把你給幹掉啦那同樣的基於同樣的一個法理啊還不是一樣嗎如果我現在是大法官我就採取這樣的一個精神"},{"start":9478.257,"end":9503.007,"text":"不是說為了什麼哪一個政黨你司法不用嘛司法你本來就是代表國家嘛哪一個政黨來那只是他本身是給予短短幾年名譽賦予他執政的一個機會而已嘛可是你司法你是整個國家你要延續下去的人你要看他合不合理欸如果任何人哪天假設民進黨真的是哪天在野啦然後發生了我們這個國會裡面的一個多數我們也像藍白聯手這樣亂幹的話你癱瘓掉整個司法制度"},{"start":9508.376,"end":9532.121,"text":"本席齊齊以為不可但是這個議題當然是值得討論你說到底是要用暫時處分的方式或者說整個預防性權利的一個救濟措施我也知道會有贊成的我也知道會有反對各自都言之成理各自都言之成理可是重點本席的重點不在這個地方本席的重點是在於說如果因為"},{"start":9535.489,"end":9552.677,"text":"大家都講求民意 司法機關還在講什麼民意司法機關你一個系屬在法院的一個案件不管你憲法法庭 或者各個法院哪一個人 多有民意法院可不管這一些喔尹錫悅剛剛不是被逮捕了嗎對不對 韓國總統啊那選出來也都很大的民意啊"},{"start":9557.901,"end":9583.809,"text":"很大的民意啊你司法機關哪有管你什麼民意司法機關你代表的就是國家啊你說總統是不是代表國家 當然算啦他對外是代表一個國家啊可是你一個司法機關裡面你也是國家最高的一個司法機關啊你本來就是基於獨立審判啊你不能去拒絕啊你不能是一個民意機關定出一個法律要把你整個憲法法令把你給趟換掉那你就說啊沒辦法立法院來的這些東西我們要遵守是這樣子嗎立法院我們法律很多都是亂定的欸"},{"start":9589.502,"end":9602.548,"text":"你們難道不知道審法的過程裡面嗎那是很 有些聲音法學或者說基於法律的一個原理所定出來的有時候常常在問你們的意見啊那反而這一些我們不問你們意見沒有問你們意見就會出問題不是說你們的意見不能挑戰可是當你們的意見完全都不受立法機關來尊重的時候問題就來了這一部法律就是這樣來的涉及到整個政黨的鬥爭裡面啊就會產生很大的一個問題啊"},{"start":9619.298,"end":9642.114,"text":"我們在座幾位委員我們也不可能一輩子都是當立法委員所以這種國家基本的憲政法理我還懂我還懂贊成的我認為言之成理反對的我也認為言之成理都可以去討論可是呢你憲法法令你總是要做一個決定啊你不能被繳卸掉啊不是這樣子嗎 廳長"},{"start":9645.854,"end":9659.668,"text":"跟委員說明就是針對目前三讀修正通過的限訴法那確實已經有不少案件有對這個部分來申請釋憲或者是暫時處分那我們相信下法庭會做適當的處理是啦 您當然會不好意思說但是我總會覺得 你看我再舉一號"},{"start":9665.174,"end":9688.225,"text":"你像你們在釋字在第599號裡面的理由書這講得很清楚喔爭議的法令的一個適用可能對人民的基本權利憲法基本原則或其他重大公義造成不可恢復或難以恢復的重大損害的時候而對損害的防止事實上具有局迫性的且別無其他手段可知防免時得權衡做成暫時處分之利益跟做成暫時處分之不利益"},{"start":9692.327,"end":9697.78,"text":"你看看喔 利益顯然大於不利益 申請人的申請於本案作之前 等作成暫時處分 定暫時狀態他談的就是可能欸"},{"start":9701.872,"end":9725.72,"text":"你們4-599也在談這一號所以我現在倒覺得我們司法院有點在玩大富翁遊戲到了要抽籤的時候你們到底是會抽到這個幸運卡或者說你的機會就是你先去提起預防訴訟來做一個救濟這個命運就是說你只能乖乖的去等法律聖教提起暫時處分"},{"start":9728.568,"end":9755.951,"text":"這個是你要抽的是機會還是這個命運這個值得司法院好好去做一個思考但是我在這邊再一次的建議再一次的一個建議司法院到我們司法法治委員會我還是期待你們拿出你們最專業的見解不卑不亢看到國會議員哪怕是聲音很大的嘶吼的哪怕是破護罵結型的"},{"start":9757.113,"end":9780.833,"text":"站在你們自己司法機關專業的立場不卑不亢去回應就好畢竟你們也叫做憲政機關啦平常你們只是預算在我們這個地方你說立法院基於整個憲政的一個設計我們確實有監督之權可是我們對於司法院來看的話我都覺得應該是多一份的一個尊重"},{"start":9782.074,"end":9799.119,"text":"人民當然對司法有很高的一個期待啊司法確實是 以現在來看的話我從過去一直看民調從以前 副民主黨這個你就要特別注意了我就從當學生的時候一直看看到現在司法的滿意度就不要管過你不管誰執政"},{"start":9800.529,"end":9828.541,"text":"就真的就沒有高過問題出在哪裡我也不知道司法國事會議我們也開開完以後呢陷入一些肢解頭痛一頭腳痛一腳可是到最後民調每一次出來以後我相信法律人都非常洩氣這是值得我們彼此再去努力的一個地方可是到國會以後我還是期許你們拿出你們最專業拿出你們最專業然後呢這個案件以現在來看的話"},{"start":9829.221,"end":9834.329,"text":"我覺得司法案其實你們本身就可以為自己找到解方以上 謝謝好 那我們休息五分鐘"},{"start":10245.674,"end":10262.224,"text":"好 那現在繼續開會 下一位我們請翁曉琳委員發言好 謝謝 有請副秘書長"},{"start":10269.863,"end":10279.817,"text":"副秘書長今天辛苦了從早上到現在其實我們今天思委會大概是這個全院裡面最認真的委員會都一直還有在這個"},{"start":10282.233,"end":10300.649,"text":"在進行相關的專案報告那麼事實上從這一兩個禮拜大家其實很關心的就是行政院的復議案還有民進黨委員會不會利用法律還沒有生效之前就提起釋憲案及這個暫時處分案那麼剛剛其實吳宗憲委員已經有問過了然後我也看了這個新聞"},{"start":10306.974,"end":10319.085,"text":"那麼應該就是民進黨黨團已經正式的據狀提出申請釋憲及暫時處分那麼我想請教一下就是這個案件是有民進黨委員親送的嗎還是誰去遞狀的"},{"start":10324.83,"end":10352.64,"text":"那個報案委員因為從早上我們都一直在那個立法院那我問一下我們廠長目前得到的資訊廠長知道是有委員親送的嗎親自送件還是這個我們不清楚這個我們不清楚好 那麼當然剛剛莊玉雄委員他們是認為說在法律未生效之前民進黨就是立法委員他是有"},{"start":10354.795,"end":10370.68,"text":"權利可以去申請釋憲的那麼最後的關鍵點當然還是在憲法法庭大法官要不要受理這個釋憲案並且做成這個暫時處分的裁定那麼事實上我們知道"},{"start":10372.148,"end":10393.223,"text":"在這裡我想請教這個副秘書長據您了解就是從我們行限以來有沒有曾經大法官是就哪一個釋憲案是針對還沒有生效的法律來進行釋憲的或是做成暫時處分案的這部分資料我是不是請蘇業廷廷長來回答好 是 請廷長"},{"start":10394.893,"end":10421.908,"text":"是 先回答委員 如果是有關於暫時處分的話目前准許的新救治加起來是四件那其實都是針對已經生效的法律已經生效的法律那如果是針對釋憲案或者是憲法訴訟在新制沒有 但在救治如果我們討論憲法一解釋類型的話就是在救治這個類型下面確實過去曾經在立法院在審議法案中就適用憲法的一 有申請過大法官做成解釋"},{"start":10423.009,"end":10428.676,"text":"不過剛剛我回答沈委員的時候也有提到那在新制沒有這樣的一個解釋類型所以在新制沒有那麼在舊制的話可能曾經有過一件可是呢在這個一件的這個案子裡面後來因為憲法訴訟法修法"},{"start":10440.388,"end":10467.585,"text":"憲法訴訟法修法然後也特別的將所謂的憲法一役的事件憲法一役的案子可以作為憲法訴訟標的這個類型把它刪除掉了所以就是說在我們憲法訴訟法現在第一條裡面所名列的六款的訴訟類型裡面其實是不包含我們現在講的所謂預防性的不作為訴訟或預防性訴訟"},{"start":10469.178,"end":10494.168,"text":"那麼這是憲訴法裡面很清楚的規定我想副秘書長跟廳長應該都很清楚知道憲法訴訟法跟行政訴訟法和民事訴訟法這是一個完全不同的訴訟法規那麼彼此是不是可以互相的援引甚至類推適用憲法訴訟法又再類推適用到民事訴訟法或行政訴訟法的規定請問你們覺得適合嗎"},{"start":10498.516,"end":10513.01,"text":"我們講這個我可以說明嗎是跟我說明那因為憲法訴訟法在第46條它確實有一個可以明文在性質不抵觸的情況下明文准用行政訴訟法那行政訴訟法因為它有"},{"start":10513.71,"end":10529.343,"text":"規定的部分很多可以準用民事訴訟法所以純從法理上來看的話確實在憲法訴訟的案件裡面如果大法官在個案認為性質不抵觸的話有些事項是可以透過準用行政訴訟法甚至有可能再準用民事訴訟法"},{"start":10534.648,"end":10551.704,"text":"其實在憲法訴訟法裡面它確實是有規定有一些條文它是可以去准用行政訴訟法的規定可是這個可以一再的擴大那個准用的概念嗎然後從憲法訴訟法准用行政訴訟法行政訴訟法又准用到民事訴訟法我認為這樣子的一個解釋"},{"start":10555.988,"end":10576.742,"text":"已經是超越我們原來憲法訴訟法裡面的相關的規定立法者並沒有授權憲法法庭有這麼大的解釋權可以去准用或是類推適用其他的法規那麼本席想要講的就是說其實從許中立院長"},{"start":10578.463,"end":10583.204,"text":"當時呢他主張司法積極主義認為說這個大法官可能在很多的這個涉及到這個法規的解釋上面可以更積極的更大膽的作為但是呢這個情況其實也構成了後來被很多"},{"start":10597.408,"end":10625.153,"text":"法律界的專家學者們批評現在大法官造法的問題很嚴重從這個憲判制8號到憲判制9號一個是實質廢止判決跟國會改革法案裡面其實都可以看到大法官已經從司法激進主義積極主義進階成為司法激進主義了大法官其實本來應該是作為最後的手段他應該要這個司法要節制啊"},{"start":10626.033,"end":10638.291,"text":"可是在這幾個判決裡面甚至在先前有好幾個憲法判決裡面其實都已經看到大法官他已經積極太過於介入整個立法裁量的空間"},{"start":10640.337,"end":10663.548,"text":"這簡直是這根本就是當成是立法者的這個太上皇了然後指導立法機關如何的去立法那甚至這個不應該是屬於立法不應該是屬於司法憲法裁判裡面的應該解釋的這個項目那麼大法官也都積極的介入我認為其實這是一個很危險的"},{"start":10665.987,"end":10690.495,"text":"很危險的一個情況我們在過去可能在我們的法治還不是很安定很競權的時候大法官能夠展現相當程度的司法積極主義是沒有問題的可是當他已經愉悅了作為一個司法者他的這個要謹守的司法自治這樣的原則之後他所造成的後果是非常非常危險的"},{"start":10692.649,"end":10714.419,"text":"當然釋憲權這個是立法委員的權利人民的權利 機關的權利可是關鍵就在於說該不該受理該不該進而做成憲法判決或者是暫時處分的裁定這個關鍵點還是在大法官那我現在"},{"start":10716.627,"end":10739.872,"text":"想要進一步的這個再請教副秘書長的就是我們知道其實上禮拜因為行政院他有提出復議了那麼他們這個復議理由洋洒洒的就認為這個行政院認為摯愛難行我想請教就是當時他們提出的復議案到底有沒有跟司法院事前有進行討論"},{"start":10741.276,"end":10749.642,"text":"這部分並沒有 完全沒有接觸所以所謂的治癌難行基本上行政院他自己認為限訴法的通過可能會治癌難行"},{"start":10751.68,"end":10771.654,"text":"這部分我們不便表示評論好但是司法院基本上是並沒有參與這個復議案的這個這個理由的這個撰寫好那麼我想另外我要問的就是說其實在我們這次審查限訴法的過程當中"},{"start":10773.133,"end":10793.289,"text":"本期是當時在第一會期跟第二會期都有提出限訴法的草案可是我自始至終我沒有看到司法院對這兩個法案有提出任何的對案頂多是在進行專案報告的時候認為可能會造成憲法法庭有一些"},{"start":10795.391,"end":10818.172,"text":"這個可能又回到過去的體制可能會覺得說有不太適合執行執法就是在憲法法庭裁判的時候可能會造成某種程度的困難度那麼可是如果說限訴法對於憲法法庭對司法院是這麼重要的話為什麼在當時這個法案審查過程當中司法院卻沒有提出對案是不是司法院消極怠惰"},{"start":10822.318,"end":10841.71,"text":"本院那個一貫的立場是認為當時就是修法前的那個憲法訴訟法並沒有至愛難行就是那個法條事實上是運作非常順暢的所以本院是建議不要修法因此沒有提出對案好所以呢就是你們都認為說這個司法院的立場認為原來限訴法都沒有任何問題運作非常適合"},{"start":10847.173,"end":10870.429,"text":"那麼但是現在就是當立法委員他代表後面的背後的民意然後我們也看到了很多的法律學者認為之前的限訴法就是出現了大的問題變成少數的大法官就可以做成憲法裁判而你們也知道其實我們這個工黨的委員在這個案子上面也非常的重視也認為這個必須要修改"},{"start":10871.129,"end":10889.708,"text":"可是如果說你們當時就看到或是有發現有一些問題的時候你們沒有積極的去提出對岸我覺得這就是一個司法太過於消極了你們也可以提出你們的看法哪個地方其實可以再斟酌再修正但是卻都沒有"},{"start":10890.488,"end":10916.119,"text":"這樣做等到我們法案通過之後那麼現在看起來反正就是大法官他按受理就受理那他這個要怎麼樣做成決定就全部都由大法官去決定我剛剛還聽到周睿雄委員他提出一個很有趣的一個看法他認為說這個憲法訴訟法因為他主要是規範的是大法官所以規範的是司法院所以司法院院長"},{"start":10917.498,"end":10940.675,"text":"應該要代表司法院提起憲法訴訟只要司法院院長迴避就好請問副秘書長跟廳長你們同意這樣子的看法嗎我們尊重莊委員的說法司法院未來會不會提釋憲呢這個我沒有辦法代表院長發言如果院長真的提釋憲的話所以按照莊銳雄委員的意見他就要迴避對不對"},{"start":10943.723,"end":10971.808,"text":"如果不是法定迴避是有而院長如果有自行迴避的話由全體大法官決定是否迴避所以大法官可以不迴避司法院院長提出釋憲案也可以不迴避我現在要講的就是憲法訴訟法它本來就是在規範憲法法庭審理程序的一個這次的修法它是規範憲法法庭的審理程序它基本上就是一個涉及大法官自己的我們所謂的涉及法案"},{"start":10972.728,"end":10998.582,"text":"在這個涉及法案當中大法官如果說還可以求員監裁判自己針對這個憲法訴訟法去做出裁判宣告這個修法是違憲的或者是說做成這個凍結憲法訴訟法的這樣的一個裁定我認為是極為不妥的大法官群體難道不應該迴避嗎這就是規範他們自己啊"},{"start":11001.604,"end":11021.792,"text":"你們的看法呢我可以說明嗎是跟我們報告那這個跟涉及事務有關的部分其實如果我們以過去的4-601號有關於大法官被刪除專業家籍那當時這個也是大法官的涉及事務那確實外界也有在討論到底大法官要不要迴避"},{"start":11022.412,"end":11047.891,"text":"那這個部分後來大法官在他解釋理由書裡面有很清楚的說明那其實所有的國家的憲政爭議那最後能夠做出最後一錘定音的答案在我國的憲法體制設計上就是大法官所以遇到任何憲政問題大法官遇到無可迴避的時候仍然應該與裁判這就是現在司法公信力為什麼蕩然無存的一個很重要的原因"},{"start":11048.991,"end":11075.097,"text":"明明憲法訴訟法它就涉及到整個憲法法庭的組織運作大法官的組成這個基本上就很典型就是由立法者他們可以就這樣子的一個組織架構去進行這個相關的立法的規範可是呢現在大法官只要是不符合這個司法院自己提出來的法案那麼只要是立法"},{"start":11075.777,"end":11095.94,"text":"委員立法院所通過的跟憲法訴訟法相關的規定就認為這個是違憲的規定那麼從司法院之前的報告然後到乃至於現在看到民進黨委員還有賴政府他們的見解幾乎都是如此這個基本上已經是嚴重的侵犯到立法的裁量權"},{"start":11097.505,"end":11124.228,"text":"那麼就大法官的這個審理的程序標準是不是要拉高門檻要不要拉高我們在先前已經非常多次的場合裡面就講這跟西方國家的門檻是接近的我們甚至都還沒有德國、法國、韓國這些門檻高我們這次還後來是採取了一個比較中高度門檻的這個捷克的法制"},{"start":11125.7,"end":11145.921,"text":"在這樣的一個情況之下如果說司法院還真的自己提起釋憲司法院院長還可以自己說他要參與審判那我真的認為整個的憲法法庭真的會讓人家瞧不起"},{"start":11148.427,"end":11162.319,"text":"大法官的公信力會蕩然無存這個案子是一個非常指標性的案子全民都在看憲法法庭會怎麼做我們來看一下在昨天的聯合報"},{"start":11163.877,"end":11186.223,"text":"上面其實有兩位我們在法學和實務界的一個重量級的學者一位是前司法院副院長蘇永青蘇老師還有另外一位是董寶成董老師看看人家多麼的語重心長在呼籲司法院在呼籲憲法法庭"},{"start":11192.557,"end":11217.439,"text":"不要這個不要冒進啊大法官不要冒進陷入整個政治鬥爭之中其實我看了這兩篇教授的文章我感觸很多就是曾幾何時大法官竟然成為全民的公敵"},{"start":11219.295,"end":11234.868,"text":"大家知道嗎現在人民已經不相信大法官了不相信大法官會做成公正的裁判看看我們現在到目前為止憲法法庭受理的477件人民的事件案件當中"},{"start":11236.025,"end":11252.839,"text":"這些案子大法官有積極的去審理嗎 沒有只要是這個政府行政院提起的事件案絕對第一優先先審然後拖了這個三個月半年之後做出這個判決有贏得人民的掌聲嗎 也沒有啊"},{"start":11256.107,"end":11272.393,"text":"反而還引起大家對於大法官這個他是否公平公正能夠獨立的裁判能夠超越政治的這裁判都起了很大的質疑回到上一頁看看蘇永青老師怎麼說吧對蘇永青老師說希望行政院不要把憲法法庭當工具"},{"start":11283.823,"end":11309.683,"text":"也一再強調在大法官在這次憲法訴訟法的修正過程當中當時的修法理由就很清楚的把憲法一一的審查程序就刪除了早就不在現在的憲法訴訟法裡面了也就是不會針對所謂憲法一的案子去進行去進行審理它已經不是屬於市格的這個憲法訴訟標的"},{"start":11316.321,"end":11343.68,"text":"講到這裡我其實很感慨就是明明司法機關就應該要了解整個憲政權力分立原則要知道司法的最後性司法機關的節制更要尊重立法形成自由尊重立法者的立法權對不對這是在不得已的情況之下真的窮盡了其他的解釋還是認為說"},{"start":11346.702,"end":11365.528,"text":"這個大法官還是認為說立法者所定的法律是有問題的才能宣告違憲啊所以為什麼我們一直在強調所謂的核限性解釋說也就是只要針對我們的法律裡面有任何一個理由是可以支持這個法律是核限的大法官就要採那個理由"},{"start":11366.789,"end":11393.36,"text":"可是在上次我們的國會改革釋憲案裡面完全沒有看到大法官是基於過去上來解釋的一貫性的原則核限性解釋原則來進行解釋只要他們想怎麼解釋就怎麼解釋這個已經是讓很多的憲法學者研究憲法訴訟的學者們都認為大法官是怎麼了"},{"start":11395.945,"end":11417.342,"text":"現在真的是完全不見大法官的風骨向政治靠攏這是極其可悲的事情話說回來這次的憲法訴訟法修正通過之後雖然我們明定大法官出席的人數要有10人"},{"start":11420.023,"end":11432.67,"text":"那麼眼前當然現在總統還沒有正式的公佈這個法律這個法律如果一旦公佈之後請問大法官是不是真的沒有其他事可做了嗎"},{"start":11436.048,"end":11462.648,"text":"跟委員說明 如同我剛剛跟其他委員所說明的就是有關於受理案件或者統一解釋法律命令這個部分因為現行規定並沒有被修正所以我們目前仍然會持續以三個審查庭來進行案件受理與否的審查那如果有統一解釋法律命令的部分那也可以在目前的人數下做決定那至於其他的案件類型能不能運作這是屬於審判事項 我們就不便表示意見"},{"start":11463.649,"end":11470.233,"text":"依照我們現在憲法訴訟法新修正過的法案大概就是要做成實體判決還有宣告法律違憲然後暫時處分等等這些類型才需要這個要有一定的出席人數的門檻還有做成憲法裁判或是裁定的這個門檻所以代表大法官他還是可以有很多的事情是做的並不是說是完全憲法法庭就被癱瘓"},{"start":11492.622,"end":11510.802,"text":"我想今天已經有很多委員其實也不斷的在重申講憲法法庭癱瘓的這個用語是很惡劣的憲法訴訟法的修正最重要的就是要讓整個的憲法的審理程序更加嚴謹那麼為什麼這個"},{"start":11514.326,"end":11539.278,"text":"我們只要求各級法院的法官在審理程序的時候要重視程序正義那大法官呢既然釋憲的時候呢就可以不重視程序正義不重視程序的合法性既然已經要憲法訴訟法通過就是十個人最少的這個出席人數就是十個人那宣告法律違憲就是九個人就按照那樣的程序去做這有什麼至暗難行的地方"},{"start":11541.448,"end":11566.787,"text":"我實在是不懂就是大法官憲法法庭在想什麼我真的是希望他們不要把最後自己的一點尊嚴或最後一點的公信力會毀在這次的民進黨委員所提出來的事先案上面不該受理的就不該受理的該盡速駁回的就盡速駁回"},{"start":11567.932,"end":11596.443,"text":"不要隨著執政黨隨機起舞這個是我最後對司法院對憲法法庭的呼籲希望副秘書長還有廳長可以帶回去給代理院長知悉那麼司法院還是應該要謹守自己的角色"},{"start":11597.836,"end":11626.57,"text":"如果真的如莊瑞雄委員所說的自己提起視線我認為這是會一笑大方而且呢不僅如此還會被全民看不起以上謝謝好謝謝王委員那下一位我們請鄭正前委員鄭正前委員鄭正前委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員"},{"start":11627.865,"end":11651.158,"text":"蘇清泉委員楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員賴士寶委員賴士寶委員賴士寶委員吳思堯委員吳思堯委員吳思堯委員侯孟凱委員侯孟凱委員侯孟凱委員葉元之委員葉元之委員葉元之委員"},{"start":11653.823,"end":11679.689,"text":"那所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢詢答結束那委員執行時如果有要求提供相關資料或已書面答覆者請機關請訴送交個別委員及本會委員楊瓊英所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報並請相關機關已書面回覆那本次會議到此結束現在散會謝謝大家"},{"start":11684.675,"end":11686.527,"text":"沒事 這個會期不用再開了"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}