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我請局長來 局長請好 謝主席 謝委員早局長 我要用何樂威 你有沒有問題沒有問題 好 謝謝你的黨和局勢的報告看出 老總統和我們的創政總統"},{"start":30.358,"end":39.062,"text":"的角度不一樣看蔡總統過去可以說是在穩定中去尋求突破但是老總統他不斷想要聯合美國跟聯合日本來做一個對中國大陸的威力那這種角度當然會使兩方"},{"start":59.489,"end":77.904,"text":"緊張的氣氛會上升所以在整個東亞的部分甚至擴大到全世界現在是局勢非常快速地在變動那麼有些日本的局勢看來好像對我們非常優秀你完全是站在羅總統的角度之下對安倍首相以後跟這個菅義偉首相"},{"start":86.977,"end":109.803,"text":"那麼有酒樸、有鹽田,可以說這攤安培這郵排完全是採取比較保守,以日本的利益為利益的可能美國人也是以美國的利益為利益那麼我們現在像你這樣不斷要去突破,攤美國結盟,攤日本結盟,然後來對抗中國大陸現在看到國企收成起來,他這多好"},{"start":117.406,"end":133.63,"text":"日本安保的這個極右派的一個代表所以他就是馬卡美國中央的偉大所以跟特朗普可以說是講得非常高興所以你這個報告我想要請教你大總統這樣聯合日本美國這種意圖對中華的和平發展有幫忙嗎"},{"start":144.126,"end":164.084,"text":"大概跟委員說明跟報告一下因為大概我們國安局在立法院提報的專案報告大概都是根據我們國安局各種公開或私下接觸的情資做一個相關的分析那因為以現在的美日安保的合作就像委員觀察的以昨天的峰會來看是非常的緊密他們也認為會進入一個新的"},{"start":166.106,"end":173.396,"text":"你認為國旗跟川普這麼密切,氣氛這麼好在日本的觀察家來看,有確認爲國旗首相的任期大概多久?"},{"start":180.319,"end":203.621,"text":"對 以他這任任期大概就是兩年多啦因為他是階梯 兩年多敢做得到以目前跟在野黨的一個合作的狀況來講那現在當然是日本維新會已經加入了那為什麼公民黨會退出對 那公民黨他主要是在政策路線上跟高市比較有不一樣的地方所以才會讓高市重新來 所以這是一個出力的結合啦"},{"start":206.016,"end":219.988,"text":"那麼登記殊民黨的執政 當然我們是祝福殊民黨登記的能在那執政但是有必要把台灣的安危 專保 駕託地跟日本這種結盟 尤其看到國旗動森收場馬總統是非常的高興啊 因為說他所認定 實施的日本又再回來"},{"start":231.772,"end":235.297,"text":"這樣我請教你,這個要再進一步跟日本結盟來針對中國大陸來做一個威力性的,五件事實上是軍事上的保守部"},{"start":244.305,"end":260.001,"text":"對 基本上 事實上我們的對岸的政策也是希望能夠穩定台海的情勢但是台海情勢的穩定 你也不能夠寄望在中共的善意所以怎麼樣來加強跟國際有我們的合作那不是假蒙地野生意我剛才跟你講 你就是要再進一步跟日本結盟所以你相信日本優秀就是台灣優秀的一定日本優秀這個言論"},{"start":268.796,"end":279.027,"text":"這個是高市首相他在召開第一次的內閣會議之後他就有提到這樣的一個說法那你個人的評論就是說你個人的觀察台灣有輸日本會跳下去嗎"},{"start":284.131,"end":293.662,"text":"這是高市目前的一個政策立場所以我剛在跟委員報告的是他當選了自民黨首校第一次的記者會他就提到台灣有事就是日本有事有年這個時候 邱卓勝先生來到我們本郵這個座談他去告這個"},{"start":300.697,"end":315.847,"text":"基金會責任,他明確表示,他登記在日本首相勝貢賓工作,加對日本國防軍事方位對他的觀察。他說台灣有史日本派兵的可能性很近零。"},{"start":316.775,"end":332.154,"text":"你如何看待這個公法對阿 日本是一個多元的社會啦當然大家看安保議題有不同的角度那我剛剛跟委員報告的是我們從現在的安倍首相的政府的相關的政策立場來做評估的那這樣為什麼蔡總統可以在我們頂端去選舉突破"},{"start":333.584,"end":356.371,"text":"那麼羅總統準備要結合美日來對中國大陸進行威脅這兩個參與性在哪裡因為我剛才跟委員說明第一部分我們是希望能夠維持兩岸的穩定但是維持兩岸的穩定過程當中你不能夠只寄望在中國的善意而應該跟國際友盟不管在經濟安全或是在安保安全上能夠有更多的合作來確保區域的現狀啊開國啦 請你拿去開啊啊武器都沒來啊你現在還要聯合很多人來陷人厭"},{"start":361.892,"end":369.177,"text":"你講的一套做的一套啊我不會啦 強化國防我想這是全民的共識啊對啦 那就請你提一開啊 武器沒進來現在還在想你的戰略的問題還要叫日本美國來跟我們道頂來跟中國大陸緩解這樣跟蔡總統"},{"start":379.123,"end":398.008,"text":"事實是不一樣啊 為什麼這兩個參與在一起不要 事實上還是有延續性啦主要是維持兩岸關係的穩定那同時加強有盟的合作我想台灣在這部分的政策立場都還是有它的延續性本身是強調蔡總統還可以在穩定中去選舉突破不然人家赤赤的啦 抄命人家幾天喔到那幾天就白白的"},{"start":405.578,"end":410.922,"text":"反正炒麵就用痛的感謝你不會 我們的政策都是力求穩定喔 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":225,"blocks":[["謝委員龍介：（10時14分）主席，我請局長。"],["主席：局長請。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，謝委員早。"],["謝委員龍介：局長，我用河洛話你可有問題？"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有問題。謝謝。"],["謝委員龍介：從你的東亞局勢報告可以看出賴總統跟蔡前總統的角度是不一樣的，蔡總統過去可以說是在穩定中尋求突破，但是賴總統卻不斷地想要聯合美國、聯合日本對中國大陸造成威脅，這種角度當然會使兩岸緊張的氣氛上升。在整個東亞，甚至擴大到全世界，現在局勢是非常快速在變動，你有寫到日本的局勢看起來好像對我們非常的友好，你完全是站在賴總統的角度在寫。從安倍首相以後到菅義偉首相，到岸田，再到石破，可以說安倍等這些右派完全是採取比較保守的態度，以日本的利益為利益在考量，美國人也是以美國的利益為利益。現在你們不斷要去突破，跟美國結盟、跟日本結盟，來對抗中國大陸，看到高市首相起來，他剛好是日本安倍極右派的一個代表，他就是MAGA（讓美國再次偉大）派，所以昨天他和川普可以說是談得非常高興。針對你這個報告，我想要請教你，賴總統這種聯合日本、美國的意圖對兩岸的和平發展有幫助嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：我大概跟委員說明和報告一下，國安局在立法院提報的專案報告大概都是根據國安局各種公開或私下接觸的情資做的相關分析，因為以現在美日安保的合作，就像委員觀察的，以昨天的峰會來看，是非常的緊密，他們也認為會進入一個新的黃金年代……"],["謝委員龍介：好，你認為高市和川普這麼密切、氣氛這麼好，就日本的觀察來看，你認為高市首相的任期大概多久？"],["蔡局長明彥：他這任的任期大概就是兩年多，因為他是接替……"],["謝委員龍介：兩年多可以做得到嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：以目前跟在野黨的合作狀況來講，現在當然日本維新會已經加入了聯合政府……"],["謝委員龍介：為什麼公明黨會退出？"],["蔡局長明彥：公明黨主要是在政策路線上跟高市比較有不一樣的地方，所以才會讓高市重新來……"],["謝委員龍介：所以這是一個脆弱的結合。自民黨長期執政，當然我們是祝福自民黨可以在那裡長期執政，但是是否有必要把臺灣的安危全部寄託在跟日本的結盟？尤其看到高市當選首相，賴總統是非常高興，認為他所認知、熟悉的日本又回來了。我請教你，有要再進一步跟日本結盟，來針對中國大陸做威脅性的言語或者是軍事上的部署嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：事實上，我們對對岸的政策也是希望能夠穩定臺海的情勢，但是臺海情勢的穩定也不能夠寄望在中共的善意，所以怎麼樣加強跟國際友盟的合作來維護區域的現狀也非常的重要……"],["謝委員龍介：我們不是寄望在他們的善意，我剛才跟你說，你就是有要再進一步跟日本結盟，所以你們相信臺灣有事就是日本有事這個言論？"],["蔡局長明彥：高市首相在召開第一次內閣會議之後有提到這樣的一個說法，當時總裁……"],["謝委員龍介：就你個人的觀察，臺灣有事，日本會跳進來嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：這是高市目前的政策立場，所以我剛才跟委員報告的是，他當選日本首相的第一次記者會就提到臺灣有事就日本有事。"],["謝委員龍介：去年這個時候柳澤先生來到本院座談，以及到基金會座談，他明確表示，他長期在日本首相身邊工作，對日本國防軍事防衛隊的觀察，臺灣有事日本派兵的可能性接近零。你如何看待這個說法？"],["蔡局長明彥：日本是一個多元的社會，當然大家看安保議題也有不同的角度。我剛剛跟委員報告的是，我們是從現在早苗首相政府的相關政策立場來做評估的……"],["謝委員龍介：既然如此，為什麼蔡總統可以在穩定中去尋求突破……"],["蔡局長明彥：現在也是、現在也是。"],["謝委員龍介：賴總統則準備要結合美、日來對中國大陸進行威脅，這兩個差異性在哪裡？"],["蔡局長明彥：我剛才跟委員說明，第一部分，我們是希望能夠維持兩岸的穩定，但是維持兩岸穩定的過程當中，我們不能夠只寄望在中國的善意，而應該跟國際友盟，不管在經濟安全，或是在安保安全上，都能夠有更多的合作，來確保區域的現狀……"],["謝委員龍介：花了5,000、6,000億的錢，武器都沒來，你現在還要聯合他們來跟人家吵架，這樣就是說一套做一套啊！"],["蔡局長明彥：不會，強化國防，我想這是全民的共識啦！"],["謝委員龍介：對，就錢花了，武器沒進來，現在你的戰略還要找日本、美國和我們一起跟中國大陸吵架，這樣跟蔡總統的政策事實上就是不同，為什麼？這兩個差異性在哪裡？"],["蔡局長明彥：事實上，還是有延續性，主要是維持兩岸關係的穩定，同時加強友盟的合作，我想臺灣在這個部分的政策立場都還是有延續性。"],["謝委員龍介：本席是肯定蔡總統還可以在穩定中去尋求突破，所以你們不要「嚓嚓趒」，「草蜢仔弄雞公」，到時候「雞公」如果「噗噗跳」，說不定「草蜢仔」就被人家「捅」了。感謝你。"],["蔡局長明彥：不會，我們的政策都是力求穩定，謝謝。"],["主席（林委員楚茵代）：接下來請王定宇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":278,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-9","speakers":["王定宇","陳永康","羅美玲","陳俊宇","林楚茵","馬文君","徐巧芯","謝龍介","葉元之","賴士葆","郭昱晴","邱志偉","黃仁","沈伯洋","林憶君","陳冠廷"],"page_start":245,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1148901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局報告「近期東亞情勢變化對我國影響之研析」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148901_00005"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}