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謝謝趙偉請我們交通部陳部長陳部長請台鐵公司鄭董事長來 鄭董事長請委員好來 部長 董事長我想本席像在交通委員會我任何事情是對事不對人"},{"start":34.98,"end":54.355,"text":"但是我們在台鐵公司改革的過程當中絕對不能走回頭路部長你同意嗎非常同意董事長你同意嗎同意威才適用是基本的觀念"},{"start":55.849,"end":71.254,"text":"適材適用也是改革的一部分但是如果變成我們台鐵的人士是仇傭式的我跟你講 董事長改革就沒有進步我今天會執行"},{"start":73.007,"end":95.687,"text":"是因為我手頭檢舉的案件一大堆因為我一向支持部長為什麼 年輕人對於交通業務的改革我都只有贊成跟支持的態度那私底下董事長我也贊同你把台鐵能夠慢慢改 改成像"},{"start":96.877,"end":120.098,"text":"高鐵這樣那種水準層次雖然我們票價低但是整個改革過程當中是有必要的所以一開始我也是非常支持可是我就感覺到很奇怪現在我們的人事啊是在紛張是不是是在酬庸是不是所以我對事不對人"},{"start":121.932,"end":141.901,"text":"所以我要請教董事長還有我們部長請問我們台鐵董那個董監事通過的處長以上要不要部長何備要不要處長以上不用啊就是副總以上吧或者董"},{"start":145.552,"end":161.705,"text":"只有到副总好副总好那这个事情当然跟部长但是部长你要去了解我一向指张我反对政治分张我要请教一下来下一张那个好不对好"},{"start":162.799,"end":177.677,"text":"我要提供给部长你看看中油公司台电公司台水公司或台湾高铁中国邮政中华邮政等等这些的财务人员都既有专长"},{"start":178.936,"end":206.815,"text":"可是我們台鐵我們的資產初步有八千億塊一兆以上那我們的編列預算也幾百億我請問一下我們現在回來再回來好我要請教你現在的管財務的財務處長黃偉林先生他是不是財務的專業"},{"start":212.03,"end":212.176,"text":"我跟"},{"start":214.121,"end":242.733,"text":"報告那個專委他現在是公司裡面是專門委員那現在我來了以後我是特別請他當我的秘書室的這個秘書也是特別助理那在公司裡面他是有兼任他是負責的專委他督導的單位就是主要公共事務方面因為我們借重他跟媒體溝通的這個能力那同時因為公司在這個"},{"start":243.473,"end":247.466,"text":"好了 董事長我知道我也不要打斷你但是我問你"},{"start":249.344,"end":275.597,"text":"專業的問題嘛他現在就是兼任財務處長嘛對不對他就是用媒體公關用特殊情形而進來的嘛誰推薦的我也不要講但是我可以保證他是有關係所以我才訂政治分張嘛所以你對他也不敢嘛但是你不要忘囉這裡面員工啊指正立立"},{"start":277.283,"end":284.542,"text":"檢舉的東西 他今天是為了公司好主管財務的處長 竟然不懂財務"},{"start":286.923,"end":310.441,"text":"我常講過一句話不會做事無所謂但是要會做人不要一味的覺得我有關係你拿我沒辦法這是基層員工你要改革過程當中要先安內再攘外嘛你裡面的員工對這些都不服氣請問董事長你怎麼改革請問部長這怎麼可以去發揮他們的功能"},{"start":314.183,"end":341.605,"text":"報告委員幾個部分第一台鐵公司它公司化就是說希望能夠引進非過去所謂公務體系上來的那一種人才所以現在很多的從業人員台鐵公司也有經過董事會去同意到專委可以直接請社會上面的專業的人員進來我同意有走正常的程序進來我覺得這個部分就沒什麼問題部長第二個部分是說他現在這位專委"},{"start":342.406,"end":363.824,"text":"他雖然是兼任董事長的秘書那同時也是專門委員也應該有兼財務處長但是他是督導但是他的薪水也沒有增加他是一份薪水但是做很多的工作大概是這個狀況對啦 他就是能力很強嘛但是專業不足嘛"},{"start":364.665,"end":380.457,"text":"我同意嘛他是依照公關媒體進來的嘛這個就是我們不對題進來你去做公關你要做公關處長你要去做媒體處長我都贊成嘛因為他進來的專業是這樣可是現在門外漢管我們台鐵的財務請問一下 員工都不服氣嘛問題在這裡嘛 怎麼改革"},{"start":390.925,"end":415.34,"text":"他專門委員主要的重點就是在督導公關媒體這一塊可是他就是董事長你如果要這樣講我會繼續追下去喔我已經講過我對事不對人人怎麼樣產生當然你們是依法可是我可以跟你講這裡面的辦法我看得很清楚他是用媒體公關的特殊人員進來他怎麼會來管財務呢"},{"start":419.667,"end":442.692,"text":"委員跟委員報告現在台鐵剛剛公司化有些單位是過去沒有的例如說您所關心的財務處過去沒有財務處這樣子的單位那現在新成立所以台鐵公司也需要漸漸的補齊這方面的人才過去台鐵公司並沒有財務以前還是有財務單位啦我跟你講你不要讓我有會計處不是財務處是那還不是一樣"},{"start":446.053,"end":446.373,"text":"我跟您講啦"},{"start":469.295,"end":476.242,"text":"我不是對黃偉軍先生有意見我是對體制有意見本來就是這樣嘛我對他進來台鐵我沒有意見"},{"start":482.918,"end":511.534,"text":"那個黃偉晶先生也在嘛你聽著我對你沒有意見但是對制度有意見為什麼因為你台鐵要改革怎麼會放不對的人在管不對的事情那當然就委員的指教我們趕快找專業的人才進來財務處未來整個財務處盡量是財務專業我跟你講董事長你下情不能上打我跟你講所有員工所有職工為了這些事情"},{"start":512.591,"end":527.954,"text":"都非常非常對領導階層對台鐵非常不滿為什麼那如果有關係就沒有關係那以後大家都靠關係啊說實在那這樣的話台鐵就沒有辦法改革"},{"start":528.815,"end":557.631,"text":"我同意任何人去推薦人才進來但是要擺對的位置這才是一個專業才是一個改革我同意所有有專業的都來投入台鐵但是不能因人而異如果是這樣就是政治紛張那如果是這樣台鐵又是酬庸永遠一輩子沒有辦法去改革這一點我給董事長特別一個建議我也希望部長"},{"start":558.251,"end":584.762,"text":"要去注意這些最後我要跟主席借一分鐘來接下來董事長來來來來來我知道我知道我們這個是委辦的我們那個海豐號我也去看過了海豐號本來給外表給人家看起來是很不錯的可是董事長為什麼這種"},{"start":586.553,"end":595.408,"text":"高級烤爐再封抹布這個事來 你看一下這是人家造出來的這也是員工提出來的"},{"start":596.189,"end":624.09,"text":"報告委員 這個確實是不應該啦我們已經要求這個承商要馬上改進不是 我也知道這個是承商但是這個就是我們管理階層鬆動我跟你講他包我們的東西我們也要監督啊欸 食安有問題這不是開玩笑的欸票是我們賣的但是是我們委外但是你委外給我對食安的問題當兒戲欸 是砸掉我台鐵的很難得"},{"start":626.272,"end":644.434,"text":"我們海豐號每一個人去回來都很滿意可是他沒有看到這一幕看到這一幕他就根本無法吃喝我跟你講所有董事長我要拜託這件事情要約束我們的城堡散張"},{"start":645.655,"end":671.958,"text":"食安的問題 克不容緩食安的問題 零容忍所以這些東西不要說人家沒有看到就是乾淨這樣對我們自己是不好的董事長 這個你同意嗎同意 零容忍這件事情確實也是這樣我們會嚴格的要求這個陳商好 我也希望部長啊嚴公對於這件事情黃先生這件事情對的人放不對的位置"},{"start":673.002,"end":701.423,"text":"員工是敢怒不敢言我要拜託部長我要拜託董事長適度的技巧性一定要息怒我認為人事我說實在我們肯定黃先生有專長但是要擺對的位置不要說因為他是有關係他就沒有關係這樣不好員工那麼多不是只有一個黃先生這個我特別提醒盡快課不容緩趕快去處理好不好好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":309,"blocks":[["林委員國成：（9時49分）謝謝召委，請交通部陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["林委員國成：還有請臺鐵公司鄭董事長。"],["主席：請鄭董事長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["林委員國成：部長、董事長，本席一向在交通委員會，我對任何事情是對事不對人；但是我們在臺鐵公司改革的過程當中，絕對不能走回頭路，部長，你同意吧？"],["陳部長世凱：非常同意。"],["林委員國成：董事長，你同意吧？"],["鄭董事長光遠：同意。"],["林委員國成：唯才是用是基本的觀念，適才適用也是改革的一部分，但是如果變成臺鐵的人事是酬庸式的，董事長，我跟你講，改革就沒有進步。我今天會質詢是因為我手頭上檢舉的案件一大堆，因為我一向支持部長，為什麼？年輕人對於交通業務的改革，我的態度只有贊成跟支持。私底下，董事長，我也贊同你能夠針對臺鐵慢慢改革成像高鐵的水準層次，雖然票價低，但是整個改革的過程是有必要的，所以一開始我也是非常支持。可是我感覺很奇怪，現在的人事是在分贓，是不是？是在酬庸，是不是？我對事不對人，所以我要請教董事長還有部長，請問臺鐵董監事通過的處長以上，要不要部長核備？要不要？"],["陳部長世凱：處長以上不用啊。"],["林委員國成：副總以上吧！或者董……"],["陳部長世凱：只有到副總。"],["林委員國成：好，只有到副總。這個事情當然跟部長……但是部長你要去了解。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["林委員國成：我一向主張我反對政治分贓！我要提供給部長，中油公司、台電公司、台水公司、台灣高鐵、中華郵政等等，這些的財務人員都具有專長，可是臺鐵的資產粗估有8,000億，快1兆以上，編列的預算也幾百億，我要請教你，現在管財務的財務處長黃韋鈞先生，是不是具有財務專業？"],["鄭董事長光遠：跟委員報告，他現在是公司裡的專門委員，我來了以後特別請他當我秘書室的秘書，也是特別助理。他在公司裡是有兼任，負責督導的單位主要是公共事務方面，我們借重他跟媒體溝通的能力，同時因為公司在……"],["林委員國成：好啦，董事長，我知道啦！我也不要打斷你，但是我問你的是專業的問題嘛！他現在就是兼任財務處長，對不對？他就是用媒體公關、用特殊情形進來的嘛！誰推薦的？我也不要講，但是可以保證他是有關係，所以我才定政治分贓嘛！你對他也不敢嘛！但是你不要忘了，裡面員工檢舉的事項指證歷歷，他今天是為了公司好，但是主管財務的處長竟然不懂財務！我常講過一句話，不會做事無所謂，但是要會做人，不要一味的覺得我有關係，你拿我沒辦法！這是基層員工的反映，你在改革的過程當中要先安內再攘外嘛！裡面的員工對這些都不服氣，請問董事長你怎麼改革？請問部長，這怎麼能發揮他們的功能？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，幾個部分：第一、臺鐵公司化就是希望能夠引進過去所謂非公務體系的人才，所以現在有很多的從業人員，臺鐵公司也經過董事會同意專委可以直接請社會上的專業人員進來，當時有走正常的程序，我覺得這個部分就沒什麼問題。"],["林委員國成：我同意，我知道嘛！部長……"],["陳部長世凱：第二個部分是這位專委雖然兼任董事長的秘書，同時也兼任財務處長，但是他是督導而且薪水也沒有增加，是一份薪水，但是做很多的工作，大概是這個狀況。"],["林委員國成：對啦！他就是能力很強，但是專業不足嘛！我同意嘛！他是依照公關媒體的專業進來的，這個就是文不對題，進來後去做公關處長、去做媒體處長，我都贊成嘛！因為他進來的專業是這樣，可是現在是門外漢來管臺鐵的財務，員工都不服氣嘛，問題在這裡！怎麼改革？"],["鄭董事長光遠：跟委員報告，專門委員主要的重點就是在督導公關媒體這一塊，所以他……"],["林委員國成：董事長，你如果要這樣講，我會繼續追下去！我已經講過，我對事不對人，人怎麼樣產生，當然你們是依法，可是我可以跟你講，這裡面的辦法我看得很清楚，他是用媒體公關的特殊人員進來，怎麼會來管財務呢？"],["陳部長世凱：跟委員報告，現在臺鐵剛剛公司化，有些單位是過去沒有的，例如您所關心的財務處，過去是沒有財務處這樣子的單位，現在新成立，所以臺鐵公司也需要漸漸的補齊這方面的人才，過去臺鐵公司並沒有財務方面的人才。"],["林委員國成：有啦！部長，以前還是有財務單位啦！我跟你講，你不要讓我……"],["陳部長世凱：有會計處，不是財務處。"],["林委員國成：那還不是一樣！你現在改個名字，隨便門外漢就可以去做，這對我們臺鐵是沒有幫助的！你不要跟我講什麼會計處、財務處。"],["陳部長世凱：委員，會計處還是在，但是現在新成立一個財務處，所以我們人員漸漸補齊，未來一定要找專業人才，我很同意委員的說法，一定要找專業的進來，這個部分我會努力。"],["林委員國成：不是啦！部長，我跟你講，我不是對黃韋鈞先生有意見，我是對體制有意見！"],["陳部長世凱：對，要放專業的人，這個部分我相當同意，所以我們要趕快去找專業的人進來……"],["林委員國成：本來就是這樣嘛！對於他進來臺鐵，我沒有意見！黃韋鈞先生也在嘛，你聽著，我對你沒有意見，但是對制度有意見。為什麼？因為臺鐵要改革，怎麼會放不對的人在管不對的事情？"],["陳部長世凱：就委員的指教，我們趕快找專業的人才進來財務處，未來整個財務處儘量是具有財務專業。"],["林委員國成：董事長，我跟你講，你下情不能上達，所有員工、所有職工，為了這些事情對領導階層、對臺鐵都非常不滿，為什麼？如果有關係就沒有關係，那以後大家都靠關係啊！說實在的，這樣的話臺鐵就沒有辦法改革。我同意任何人去推薦人才進來，但是要擺對的位置，這才是一個專業，才是一個改革；我同意所有有專業的人都來投入臺鐵，但是不能因人而異。如果是這樣，就是政治分贓；如果是這樣，臺鐵又是酬庸，永遠一輩子沒有辦法改革。這一點我特別給董事長建議，也希望部長要去注意這些。"],["陳部長世凱：好，沒問題。"],["林委員國成：最後我要跟主席借一分鐘。董事長，我知道這個是委辦的，海風號我也去看過啦！海風號本來外表給人家看起來是很不錯的，可是為什麼會有高級烤爐在烘抹布這個事？你看一下，這是人家拍照出來的，也是員工提出來的！"],["鄭董事長光遠：報告委員，這個確實是不應該啦，我們已經要求承商要馬上改進。"],["林委員國成：我也知道這個是承商的部分，但是這就是管理階層鬆動！我跟你講，他包我們的東西，我們也要監督啊！食安有問題，這不是開玩笑的！票是我們賣的，但是委外對於食安的問題卻當兒戲，是砸掉臺鐵的……很難得每一個人去搭海風號回來，都很滿意，可是他沒有看到這一幕，看到這一幕根本就無法吃喝！董事長，這件事情拜託要約束承包廠商，食安的問題刻不容緩，食安的問題零容忍，不要認為人家沒有看到就是乾淨，這樣對你們自己是不好的，董事長，你同意嗎？"],["鄭董事長光遠：同意，零容忍，這事情確實也是這樣，我們會嚴格地要求承商。"],["林委員國成：好，部長，關於黃先生這件事情，對的人放不對的位置，員工是敢怒不敢言，我要拜託部長、要拜託董事長，一定要適度的技巧性息怒，我說實在的，人事部分，我們肯定黃先生有專長，但是要擺對的位置，不能因為他「有關係」就「沒有關係」，這樣不好，員工那麼多，不是只有一個黃先生，這個我特別提醒，儘快、刻不容緩、趕快處理，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好，謝謝委員。"],["林委員國成：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林國成委員，請回。","接下來再請李昆澤召委發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-4","speakers":["洪孟楷","廖先翔","林國成","李昆澤","林俊憲","蔡其昌","陳素月","徐富癸","黃健豪","魯明哲","陳俊宇","許智傑","陳雪生","何欣純","李柏毅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","謝龍介","邱若華","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","徐欣瑩","游顥","鍾佳濱","蘇巧慧","郭昱晴"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1149001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司董事長及勞動部就「臺鐵各地車站旅客安全措\n施檢討、改善員工職場安全及勞動條件」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請交通部部長及交通\n部鐵道局局長就「全台軌道建設進度」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1149001_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}