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署長所以我們現在目前也在全面 全國性的防疫都在做加強 還是避免它擴散出去你就回答我的問題嘛 對不對是不是有疏失我剛剛有說過這個案例發生絕對是有疏失值得檢討的地方"},{"start":106.417,"end":120.64,"text":"我們這一個防堵非洲豬瘟這一個跨部會的部門已經成立7年多了是對不對那今天有書師誰的書師比較多目前的安妮廠是在台中"},{"start":123.164,"end":131.852,"text":"全台灣都知道在台中啦是我說誰的疏失比較多啦以你們現在這一個禮拜來講的話誰的疏失比較多目前我們檢測起來是從台中市的從通報開始然後好啦我就問你啦是地方政府的疏失多還是中央啊你就回答我這樣就好了啦目前我們真的還在疫調中"},{"start":146.306,"end":157.149,"text":"什麼叫疫調中啊你又講有疏失啊到底誰的疏失現在目前比較多大家都要檢討啦其實因為剛才講到那你如果這樣講你要不要檢討你自己啊我也會檢討對我也會檢討不是啦我立法委員我在問你你就回答我的問題就好了啊那台中市目前來講的話他們的所有的資料其實是很欠缺的很不足的那有很多帶釐清事項也沒有釐清清楚"},{"start":175.1,"end":192.532,"text":"阿對嘛所以他的疏失比較多吧目前資料顯示是如此阿對嘛你就這樣回答就好了嘛就不是在究責我們是要找出問題把它解決嘛為什麼要這樣問好那你們現在全國的疫調有沒有第二家養豬場有這個問題目前全國的部分"},{"start":193.513,"end":198.059,"text":"都沒有第二例所以這也是我們沒有第二例但潛伏期有多久15天15天過了嗎15天還沒有所以邁入第二階段那我看到的新聞說台中烏漆這個養豬場裡面還有檢測到"},{"start":211.155,"end":214.196,"text":"病毒的殘留有沒有這件事有就是這個案場我們加強傾銷以後我們也特別在針對這個案場看有沒有落實再做檢測所以抽了14個樣品以後發現兩個兩個是陽性就是還有嘛對不對是他沒有落實是環境好"},{"start":231.021,"end":244.01,"text":"我跟你講鞋子踩到會不會會會對不對所以目前全國還沒有是蠻慶幸的潛伏期還沒過對不對我剛剛講的是幾千億的產值2000億我應該不只吧應該不只吧你的2000億應該是那個養豬場的2000億周邊應該不只2000億吧是不是不只"},{"start":261.144,"end":273.797,"text":"對對嘛所以我說的就不是所以我的意思就是說你現在如果台中市政府已經不可靠了中央要不要強力的去做有有啦有是我跟你講"},{"start":279.053,"end":296.525,"text":"這個不能讓病毒擴散出去這是一個非常重要的一件事情不只為了養豬場也為了全台灣也為了國際形象也為了我們所有公務人員你今天在這裡你今天做的不是該做的事情"},{"start":297.799,"end":322.276,"text":"除了該做的事情之外你做的是救台灣幾千億的產值這應該是很努力去做的一件事情中央地方都要一起來但如果地方他的人力不夠或什麼的中央就要扛起來啦 是不是是嘛 沒錯你這樣回答我們就來看啦看能不能真正的把它防堵起來啦那我先 我再問一下海關我們最近這半年"},{"start":327.401,"end":347.705,"text":"我們裁罰了多少包委員我們今年啦你就回答我最近這半年裁罰了多少我有這個數字是截至到今我不管截至850件今年啦最近半年啦最近半年的數字我要統計大概是600件左右吧你剛剛說800件800件是從1月1號到現在今年才800件啊去年呢去年1100多件"},{"start":358.121,"end":374.764,"text":"阿在前年呢一千大概兩三百件左右阿怎麼逐年遞減是啊因為原廠的關係也是因為原廠不是因為不是因為沒有原廠所以越來越少吧當然不是這樣子就很奇怪了啦該堵的都堵阿這個病毒從哪裡來的"},{"start":385.115,"end":408.807,"text":"這個不是你的專業啦這不是你的專業啦但總有一個漏洞在那邊啦對不對但這個漏洞呢大家現在都知道了啦該哪裡該補我相信啦現在大家都緊繃起來啦我跟你講七年多了沒有事情擔心的就是大家越來越放鬆越來越放鬆才會這樣啦不然"},{"start":412.905,"end":423.696,"text":"這一件事情如果大家是很認真會拖一個多禮拜然後才讓全國知道嗎才說確認嗎那個杜署長如果是大家都戰戰兢兢的像七年前一開始這個情況會發生嗎"},{"start":433.57,"end":446.16,"text":"所以說地方的防疫單位你就回答我會不會發生啦其實大家都很認真在做啦你不要再跟我講這些嘛如果大家都像七年前一開始這樣很緊張這件事情會晚拖"},{"start":449.744,"end":455.751,"text":"晚一個多禮拜才通報嗎其實機率會變小什麼叫機率會變小我跟你講在這裡不要講官話啦我們是解決問題啦又沒人要究責又沒人要什麼對不對我再問一次如果是大家都以七年前剛開始的態度去做事這件事情會發生嗎對如果這樣子的話"},{"start":471.976,"end":490.704,"text":"這麼高的警覺性其實機率就很小可能就不會發生對嘛所以我覺得就是一個態度的問題啦一個態度的問題啦今天就是因為態度造成這樣所以我現在要跟署長你說的態度要拿出來啦"},{"start":492.011,"end":517.683,"text":"我們現在是要把它防堵擴散到其他的豬場這個態度要拿出來但你們的態度國內是你們要負全責但我請這些其他署長上來也是要讓你們知道你們也要幫忙防堵不然國內清理好了後續還這樣會有第二次發生這次如果大家再緊張七年後大家又不緊張了有可能又第二次"},{"start":519.185,"end":539.215,"text":"這個是我今天要質詢你的重點所以署長多浪費你一點時間我真的覺得用最高規格的啦你不要再去管台中市政府怎麼樣了啦台中市政府都已經這樣就沒有辦法信任了嘛沒有辦法信任的情況之下我覺得啦該強力的處理就處理好不好好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":329,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（9時43分）請警政署長。"],["主席：張署長，有請。"],["張委員宏陸：還有海巡署署長。"],["主席：海巡署署長，有請。"],["張委員宏陸：還有農業部動植物防疫檢疫署署長。"],["主席：杜署長，有請。"],["張委員宏陸：還有財政部關務署署長。"],["主席：彭署長，有請。"],["張委員宏陸：這一次非洲豬瘟這件事，我們努力了那麼多年就破功了！我想請問一下，這個到底有沒有疏忽？請農業部的杜署長。"],["杜署長麗華：其實從我們目前的資料來講，臺中本身應該是一個追查的重點。"],["張委員宏陸：不是！有沒有疏忽？"],["杜署長麗華：應該是有疏忽才會造成。"],["張委員宏陸：有嘛？我就要這句。一個疏忽造成了全臺灣幾千億的損失，影響國際形象，還有我們努力了20年，我們的豬肉終於可以出口了，對不對？"],["杜署長麗華：是。"],["張委員宏陸：政府的一個疏失造成了巨大的損失，有多少豬農會倒？"],["杜署長麗華：所以我們目前全國的防疫都全面性在加強，避免它擴散出去。"],["張委員宏陸：你就回答我的問題嘛！"],["杜署長麗華：好。"],["張委員宏陸：是不是有疏失？"],["杜署長麗華：我剛剛有說過，這個案例發生絕對有疏失及值得檢討的地方。"],["張委員宏陸：好。我們防堵非洲豬瘟這一個跨部會的部門已經成立七年多了，對不對？"],["杜署長麗華：是。"],["張委員宏陸：今天有疏失，誰的疏失比較多？"],["杜署長麗華：目前的案例場是在臺中。"],["張委員宏陸：全臺灣都知道在臺中，我是問誰的疏失比較多？以這一個禮拜來講，目前誰的疏失比較多？"],["杜署長麗華：目前我們檢測起來是從臺中市的通報開始，然後……"],["張委員宏陸：好，我就問你，是地方政府的疏失多，還是中央？你回答我這樣就好了。"],["杜署長麗華：目前我們真的還在疫調中。"],["張委員宏陸：什麼叫疫調中？"],["杜署長麗華：疫調中就是追查原因……"],["張委員宏陸：你講有疏失，到底目前是誰的疏失比較多？"],["杜署長麗華：大家都要檢討。因為剛剛也講到……"],["張委員宏陸：如果照你這樣講，你要不要檢討你自己？"],["杜署長麗華：我也會檢討。"],["張委員宏陸：不是！我是立法委員，我在問你，你回答我的問題就好了！"],["杜署長麗華：好，目前來講，臺中市所有的資料都是很欠缺的、很不足的，有很多待釐清事項也沒有釐清清楚。"],["張委員宏陸：對嘛！所以他的疏失比較多吧？"],["杜署長麗華：目前資料顯示是如此。"],["張委員宏陸：對嘛！你這樣回答就好了。這不是在究責，我們是要找出問題，把它解決，不然我為什麼要這樣問。你們現在全國的疫調有沒有發現第二家養豬場有這個問題？"],["杜署長麗華：目前全國的部分都沒有第二例，所以我們的重點也一直放在這裡。"],["張委員宏陸：好，沒有第二例，但潛伏期有多久？"],["杜署長麗華：15天。"],["張委員宏陸：15天嘛！"],["杜署長麗華：是。"],["張委員宏陸：15天過了嗎？"],["杜署長麗華：還沒有15天，所以邁入第二階段……"],["張委員宏陸：好，還沒有。我看到新聞說，臺中梧棲這個養豬場裡面還有檢測到病毒殘留，有沒有這件事？"],["杜署長麗華：有，就是這個案場，我們加強清消以後，特別再針對這個案場看有沒有落實，所以再檢測，抽了14個樣品以後，發現有2個是陽性。"],["張委員宏陸：就是還有，對不對？"],["杜署長麗華：是，沒有落實。"],["張委員宏陸：就是還有嘛？"],["杜署長麗華：是，環境……"],["張委員宏陸：鞋子踩到會不會？"],["杜署長麗華：會。"],["張委員宏陸：目前全國還沒有是蠻慶幸的，但是潛伏期還沒過，對不對？"],["杜署長麗華：是，所以不能鬆懈。"],["張委員宏陸：我剛剛講的是幾千億的產值……"],["杜署長麗華：2,000億。"],["張委員宏陸：應該不只吧？你說的2,000億應該是養豬場的2,000億吧？"],["杜署長麗華：跟周邊。"],["張委員宏陸：周邊應該不只2,000億吧？是不是不只？"],["杜署長麗華：對。"],["張委員宏陸：對嘛！所以我說的就不是……我的意思是，現在如果臺中市政府已經不可靠了，中央要不要強力的去做？"],["杜署長麗華：有。"],["張委員宏陸：我跟你講，不能讓病毒擴散出去是非常重要的一件事情，不只為了養豬場，也為了全臺灣、也為了國際形象、也為了所有的公務人員，你今天在這裡做的不只是該做的事情，除了該做的事情之外，你做的是救臺灣幾千億的產值，這應該是要很努力去做的一件事情，中央、地方都要一起來。如果地方的人力不夠或什麼的，中央就要扛起來，是不是？"],["杜署長麗華：是。"],["張委員宏陸：是嘛？"],["杜署長麗華：沒錯。"],["張委員宏陸：好，你這樣回答，我們就來看能不能真正的把它防堵起來。我再問一下海關，最近這半年你們裁罰了多少？"],["彭署長英偉：我們今年……"],["張委員宏陸：你就回答我，最近這半年裁罰了多少違規？"],["彭署長英偉：我有這個數字是截至到……"],["張委員宏陸：我不管截至……"],["彭署長英偉：850件。"],["張委員宏陸：今年、最近半年……"],["彭署長英偉：最近半年的數字還要統計，大概是600件左右。"],["張委員宏陸：你剛剛說800件，現在又變600……"],["彭署長英偉：800件是從1月1號到現在。"],["張委員宏陸：今年才800件，去年呢？"],["彭署長英偉：去年一千一百多件。"],["張委員宏陸：前年呢？"],["彭署長英偉：大概一千兩、三百件左右。"],["張委員宏陸：怎麼逐年遞減？"],["彭署長英偉：是，因為嚴查的關係。"],["張委員宏陸：是因為嚴查，不是因為沒有嚴查，所以越來越少吧？"],["彭署長英偉：當然不是，因為我們一向以高標準、高規格來對待。"],["張委員宏陸：但這樣就很奇怪了，既然該堵的都堵，這個病毒從哪裡來？"],["彭署長英偉：報告委員，農業部那邊有說……"],["張委員宏陸：這不是你的專業！但總有一個漏洞在那邊，對不對？"],["彭署長英偉：當然。"],["張委員宏陸：但這個漏洞大家現在都知道了，該哪裡、該補，我相信大家都已經緊繃起來。我跟你講，七年多來沒有事情，擔心的就是大家越來越放鬆，越來越放鬆才會這樣，不然這一件事情，如果大家很認真，會拖一個多禮拜才讓全國知道嗎？才說確認嗎？杜署長，如果大家都戰戰兢兢的，像7年前一開始，這個情況會發生嗎？"],["杜署長麗華：所以地方的防疫單位……"],["張委員宏陸：你就回答我，會不會發生？"],["杜署長麗華：其實大家都很認真在做。"],["張委員宏陸：不！你不要再跟我講這些，如果大家都像7年前一開始這樣很緊張，這件事情會拖到晚一個多禮拜才通報嗎？"],["杜署長麗華：其實機率會變小。"],["張委員宏陸：什麼叫機率會變小？我跟你講，在這裡不要講官話，我們是解決問題，又沒人要究責、又沒人要什麼，對不對？我再問一次，如果是大家都以7年前剛開始的態度去做事，這件事情會發生嗎？"],["杜署長麗華：如果有這麼高的警覺性，其實機率就很小，可能就不會發生。"],["張委員宏陸：對嘛！我覺得就是一個態度的問題。今天就是因為態度造成這樣，所以我現在要跟署長說：態度要拿出來！我們現在是要防堵它擴散到其他豬場，這個態度要拿出來，國內是你們要負全責。我請其他署長上來也是要讓他們知道，他們也要幫忙防堵，不然國內清理好了，後續還這樣的話，會有第二次發生。這次如果大家緊張，7年後大家又不緊張了，有可能又有第二次，這個是我今天要質詢你的重點，所以多浪費署長一點時間。我真的覺得用最高規格的，你不要再管臺中市政府怎麼樣了，臺中市政府都已經這樣，就沒有辦法信任了。在沒有辦法信任的情況之下，我覺得該強力的處理就處理，好不好？"],["杜署長麗華：好。"],["張委員宏陸：謝謝。"],["杜署長麗華：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張宏陸委員。","下一位請王美惠召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":244,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-8","speakers":["黃建賓","徐巧芯","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","麥玉珍","許宇甄","牛煦庭","徐欣瑩","吳琪銘","李柏毅","謝龍介","丁學忠","徐富癸","林楚茵","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","陳雪生","高金素梅","黃捷"],"page_start":175,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1148901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請內政部部長、海洋委員會主任委員、內政部警政署署長、內政部移民署署長、海洋委員\n會海巡署署長、農業部部長、財政部關務署署長，就「防堵非洲豬瘟邊境檢疫與查緝機制之檢討\n與精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查委員徐巧芯等16人擬具「海岸巡防法第十三條\n條文修正草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1148901_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}