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本席有請內政部次長有請馬市長委員好次長好 我想前面的委員大家也都非常的重視我們的邊境管控那怎麼樣嚴防吸入"},{"start":38.84,"end":66.187,"text":"那本席看到内政部的报告里面只强调筛检39个重点航班本席不禁想要询问难道猪瘟的病毒它只会搭乘重点航班吗各位报告我们是39个疫区国家的航班不是只有39个航班所以航班制度蛮多的39个疫区国家那我请问中转旅客的行李"},{"start":67.608,"end":92.366,"text":"中转旅客行李还有小型渔船的走私当然刚刚前面的委员也有问到包含离岛口岸还有快递货物这些查气强度如何补足报委我们现在基本上39个疫区国家含中转的部分我们都会查验所以只要是有经过疫区国家来的航班的旅客我们会查验"},{"start":93.103,"end":120.453,"text":"那疫区国家目前是农业部根据WAH的这个标准来公告它是不止39个所以对所以就如果不是疫区国家我们都这个就不可能这个猪瘟的病毒就不会进来吗是这样疫区国家跟非疫区国家的差异在于说我们如果是非疫区国家的旅客入境的话我们还是会在边境有海关的人员做抽检"},{"start":121.129,"end":143.827,"text":"所以它的這個抽檢的這個洞穴是不一樣的你一定會抽檢到有的有株瘟病毒的你一定會抽檢到嗎這就是問題好沒關係接著那小型遺傳走私這個部分怎麼辦那是海巡那麻煩海巡"},{"start":147.981,"end":160.691,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在從107年開始那個鄰近國家發生非洲豬瘟的案例以後我們從107年開始對於進港的所有傳播都百分之百安檢到現在強度都沒有減低是"},{"start":165.906,"end":181.065,"text":"所有的小型渔船也都一片安静接着次长继续我们现在整个在防疫上我们还在用传统的X光机"},{"start":182.253,"end":210.271,"text":"搭配人工判毒肉眼戰術這個國際好像都已經進入AI智能防疫了我們還是用人力人工這個部分我們人的疲勞還有科技的落差這個部分要加強改善好我們目前有跟委員報目前有AI的判試模組有AI的什麼大聲一點判試模組我們已經在進行了已經進行到怎麼樣"},{"start":212.749,"end":239.855,"text":"請問我們現在有升級嗎X光機就是我們配合這個灌入所就海關那個儀器對於判讀的那個顏色形狀都可以來做這樣的一個判讀也是先進的這個X光儀器是儀器判讀不是人工判讀我們人是看儀器的判讀檢查過X光顯示在螢幕上根據它的顏色"},{"start":240.815,"end":259.221,"text":"跟他的图样最终还是人工作最后的判定那一样啊你所有的AI也是要靠AI没有办法AI影像也是会显示出来应该是也会把这个影像显示出来是要靠我们人去做这样的说这个是不是属于猪肉品"},{"start":259.961,"end":285.774,"text":"那把它分離出來我想這個部分AI的話它跳出來的我們就應該我們就應該直接就可以那個啦所以我們看到那個圖檔是屬於現在全面了嗎全面了嗎現在S光機都我們配合關於屬大概都全面在因為我們大概都全面到底全面的還是我們現在全面連19的S光機我剛剛跟文報告一下S光機是線型的啊你現在有用AI影像判讀嗎"},{"start":286.634,"end":307.784,"text":"這個部分是有做結合的啦我跟委員報剛剛那個疫區那個部分就是三十五條疫區那個是全那個是那個是防檢署是所有的旅客的所攜帶的這些我們全檢啦那其他的國家也是的通行李來我們海跟海關聯一直在在入境的部分也是透過S方來檢查"},{"start":308.632,"end":334.96,"text":"那所提的部分大概是由海關來做籌檢所以我們整個的防線絕對不能有縫隙我們也不能有科技落伍的這種系統潰敗絕對不行這部分我們應該是在更精進更精進看世界各國的狀況來進行本席要請農業部謝謝請回座本席想請農業部那個昭偉不好意思我們今天不是要請部長結果也沒有次長來"},{"start":337.536,"end":363.664,"text":"部長因為今天在這個威環他們也有特別請過假農業部現在兩個還三個次長三位次長都沒有一個人可以來這一個還在那個前進中心那邊那我們請的是署長杜署長我們現在因為非洲豬瘟所以我們這個禁止全面禁止用廚餘來養豬"},{"start":367.978,"end":372.861,"text":"署長我比較想問部長整個農業部有沒有了解廚餘啊你現在完全禁止的情況下"},{"start":378.76,"end":401.585,"text":"署长署长您今天来就代表部长嘛不是他是跨部会的议题那也都在处理我知道你就是指环境部嘛但是这个指令当你要下说全面禁止厨余的时候那有没有考虑到猪农它的成本你现在厨余这么多它都没有了一个县市都是几百吨上千吨的"},{"start":402.832,"end":427.051,"text":"我在这里要请署长要带回去因为你们整个农业部有没有了解厨余厨余除了分生厨余跟熟厨余之外其实还有一个更重要的重点它是固态跟液态所以有人建议说要高温蒸煮本席的了解是高温蒸煮"},{"start":428.112,"end":443.259,"text":"固态的除以他内部不会他温度不会那么高你说要煮久一点一般他们也不可能因为那浪费他的能源成本所以固态跟液态分离除以固态液态分离"},{"start":444.451,"end":470.637,"text":"液態可以很容易他就會煮沸那這個煮沸之後其實是還是可以等於他等於病毒殺死他還是可以當這個養豬的您的看法怎麼樣報告委員喔只要是廚藝當原料來餵養豬隻我們關注的重點就是病毒要不活化的溫度那他就是90度一個小時"},{"start":472.383,"end":490.615,"text":"這個是一定要貫徹的所以您的意思是就算固液態分離他也沒辦法把病毒殺死嗎我要講是除以收來以後他是一個液態的除以收來有固液態都有"},{"start":491.916,"end":518.045,"text":"都有啦其實理論上來講因為有時候水分就比較高那水分比較高你要當作餵養豬隻的時候你一定要蒸煮然後攪拌一個小時一個小時但從現在目前到了90度還要一個小時還是從開始煮開始90度以上一個小時這樣子你們就准許他"},{"start":519.045,"end":539.865,"text":"拿廚餘去餵豬是不是我再報告一下現在廚餘這個管控是由環境部交由各地方政府去做處理那在過去的協調機制裡面地方政府要要求我們的環保單位要要求廚餘飼養豬隻的部分一定要做到所以他第一個他一定有檢核廠"},{"start":541.65,"end":558.077,"text":"那第二個他去看他的當日上傳的資料影片有沒有落實那第三個假設有異樣那個集合大隊是一定要到這個現場去集合看他有沒有照這個標準程序去走"},{"start":559.322,"end":587.447,"text":"那目前掌握的是有几个漏洞本席想建议的就是其实除于他应该是可以故意太分离固态的去堆肥固态的去堆肥他也不会去喂猪液态的您刚刚说对了一点液态的他占了70%到80%他液态的他容易煮沸他容易煮沸那液态的煮沸之后他就煮沸以后要持续一个小时"},{"start":588.168,"end":603.809,"text":"所以這個才是關鍵才能夠讓他不活化所以重點就在假設他煮完像我們一般煮東西開了我就把它關掉對不起病毒人在那邊還是活化狀態所以為什麼要持續那個小時要貫徹"},{"start":606.047,"end":620.314,"text":"就是非常重要所以现在你们的厨余还是可以养猪只要符合这个程序不行这段时间都不行对所以重点是不行的原因是什么原因"},{"start":621.681,"end":645.655,"text":"我們現在已經禁載禁運那因為現在廚藝的風險高因為風險高所以完全禁止就對了在這段時間435戶的廚藝廠全部禁止那你們對於這些豬農他們長期本來都有配合的對不對他們現在突然間他哪裡那麼多飼料餵豬你們有補助嗎我跟委員報告有關"},{"start":650.378,"end":661.708,"text":"廚餘養豬這個的政策已經在檢討慢慢的第一個階段一定要落實去檢核不是你現在下令了你現在下令你現在這樣的下令你知道豬農他們的衝擊嗎不是"},{"start":663.81,"end":669.871,"text":"我們都知道每一個層級都會受到因為為了防疫但是有關除獄養豬退場的議題也正在研擬配合環境部跟我們部裡面在研擬怎麼的方式退場而能夠減少到除獄養豬的衝擊包括可能轉換飼料那轉換飼料之間有什麼獎勵的措施或退場"},{"start":689.816,"end":704.962,"text":"或退場等等我現在講的是他們現在每天每天豬都要吃啊他們受到的衝擊你們有沒有任何措施這才是真正影響豬農最大的是那再跟報告委員就是這段15天的時候針對廚餘養豬戶也有給他們在飼料平台的媒合也給予一些相關的協助不會影響到他們目前你們準備多少來補助"},{"start":718.587,"end":720.969,"text":"有有都你補助他們幾趴講不出來沒有沒有明確的我們會根據這樣的飼料差額去給他們補助就像之前在飼料差額意思說他因為這個衝擊多出來要買飼料的你們全額補助嗎我們就是會依照相關的這樣的一個我們有在其實在110年的時候9月我們就已經有處理過這樣的一樣"},{"start":744.082,"end":760.834,"text":"的一個做法當時也是有跟這個農民有互相這一次我們就會用一樣的這樣的一個計算的方式來補助他們在這一段時間因為要轉去買飼料然後做一些這樣的一個你們要深入去了解讓他們衝擊最小好不好 以上謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":731,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（10時45分）謝謝主席，本席有請內政部馬次長。"],["主席（黃委員建賓）：請馬次長。"],["馬次長士元：委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：次長好。我想前面的委員大家都非常重視我們的邊境管控怎麼樣嚴防攜入。本席看到內政部的報告裡面只強調篩檢39個重點航班，本席不禁想要詢問，難道豬瘟的病毒，它只會搭乘重點航班嗎？"],["馬次長士元：跟委員報告，我們是39個疫區國家的航班，不是只有39個航班，所以航班次數滿多。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，OK，39個疫區國家，那我請問中轉旅客的行李，還有小型漁船的走私，剛剛前面的委員也有問到包含離島口岸，還有快遞貨物，這些查緝強度如何補足？"],["馬次長士元：報告委員，我們現在基本上39個疫區國家含中轉的部分，我們都會查驗，所以只要是有經過疫區國家來的航班旅客，我們會查驗。疫區國家目前是農業部根據WAH的標準來公告，它不只39個。"],["徐委員欣瑩：如果不是疫區的國家，豬瘟的病毒就不會進來嗎？"],["馬次長士元：報告委員，疫區國家跟非疫區國家的差異在於，如果是非疫區國家的旅客入境的話，我們還是會在邊境由海關人員做抽檢，所以他的抽檢動線不一樣。"],["徐委員欣瑩：有豬瘟病毒的，你一定會抽檢到嗎？這就是問題。好，沒關係。我接著問，小型漁船走私，這個部分怎麼辦？"],["張署長榮興：走私是海巡署……"],["徐委員欣瑩：那是海巡署，那麻煩請海巡署回答。"],["主席：請海委會跟海巡署。"],["張副主任委員忠龍：跟委員報告，從107年開始鄰近國家發生非洲豬瘟的案例以後，我們從107年開始對於進港的所有船舶都100%安檢……"],["徐委員欣瑩：100%，是不是？"],["張副主任委員忠龍：100%，到現在強度都沒有減低。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所有的小型漁船也都一併安檢？"],["張副主任委員忠龍：都是、都是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK。接著請內政部次長，我們現在整個的防疫上，我們還在用傳統的X光機搭配人工判讀、肉眼戰術，國際好像都已經進入AI智能防疫了，我們還是用人力、人工，人的疲勞還有科技的落差，這個部分要加強改善。"],["馬次長士元：跟委員報告，目前有AI的判試模組。"],["徐委員欣瑩：有AI的什麼？大聲一點。"],["馬次長士元：判試模組，我們已經在進行了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：已經進行到怎麼樣的程度？請問我們現在有升級嗎？"],["張署長榮興：有關X光機的部分，我們配合關務署海關，那個儀器對於顏色、形狀都可以來做這樣的判讀，也是先進的X光儀器。"],["徐委員欣瑩：是儀器判讀，不是人工判讀？"],["張署長榮興：儀器判讀，我們人是看儀器的判讀，檢查X光機顯示在螢幕上的部分，根據它的顏色跟它的圖樣去做……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以最終還是人工做最後的判定嘛？"],["張署長榮興：一樣啊！所有的AI也是要靠……AI影像一樣也是會顯現出來。"],["徐委員欣瑩：AI影像判讀它可以跳出來？"],["張署長榮興：應該是會把這個影像顯現出來，也是要靠我們人去做判讀，說這個是不是屬於豬肉品，把它分離出來。我想這個部分……"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有，AI的話，它跳出來的，我們就應該直接可以……"],["張署長榮興：會，所以我們看圖檔是屬於……"],["徐委員欣瑩：現在全面了嗎？"],["張署長榮興：現在X光機的部分，我們配合關務署，大概都全面在……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你說「大概都全面」，到底全面了，還是？"],["張署長榮興：全面了，都用X光機，我跟委員報告一下……"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是，X光機是現行的，你現在有用AI影像判讀嗎？"],["張署長榮興：這部分是有結合的。我跟委員報告，剛剛疫區的那個部分，39個疫區是防檢署針對所有旅客攜帶的物品都全檢；其他國家來的託運行李，我們跟海關在入境的部分，也是透過X光來檢查；手提的部分，大致是由海關來做抽檢。現在制度大概是……"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，我們整個防線絕對不能有縫隙。"],["張署長榮興：絕對不會有縫隙。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們也不能有科技落伍的這種系統潰敗，絕對不行。"],["張署長榮興：這部分我們應該再更精進，更精進的去看世界各國的狀況來執行。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，謝謝，請回座，本席想請農業部。","召委，不好意思，我們今天不是要請部長？結果也沒有次長來？"],["主席：部長因為今天在衛環。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那他們次長呢？也沒有次長。"],["主席：他們有特別來請過假。"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是，農業部現在有2個還3個次長？"],["杜署長麗華：3位次長。"],["徐委員欣瑩：有3位次長，都沒有一個人可以來這？"],["主席：一個還在前進中心那邊。"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒關係，我們請杜署長。","現在因為非洲豬瘟，所以我們全面禁止用廚餘來養豬。署長，我比較想問部長，整個農業部有沒有了解廚餘啊？你現在完全禁止的情況下……署長，您今天來就代表部長嘛？"],["杜署長麗華：不是，這是跨部會的議題，也都在處理，是不是……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我知道，你就是指環境部嘛！"],["杜署長麗華：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：但是這個指令，當你要下令說全面禁止廚餘的時候，有沒有考慮到豬農的成本？廚餘這麼多，它現在都沒有了，一個縣市都是幾百噸、上千噸的，我在這裡要請署長把話帶回去，你們整個農業部有沒有了解廚餘？","廚餘除了分生廚餘跟熟廚餘之外，其實還有一個更重要的重點，它是分固態跟液態，所以有人建議說要高溫蒸煮，本席的了解是高溫蒸煮固態的廚餘，它溫度不會那麼高，你說要煮久一點，一般他們也不可能，因為浪費他的能源成本，所以廚餘固態跟液態分離，液態很容易就可以煮沸，那煮沸之後其實還是可以當養豬的飼料，就是病毒殺死後，它還是可以當養豬的飼料，您的看法怎麼樣？"],["杜署長麗華：報告委員，只要是廚餘當原料來餵養豬隻，我們關注的重點就是病毒要不活化的溫度，就是90度一個小時，這是一定要貫徹的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以您的意思是，就算固、液態分離，它也沒辦法把病毒殺死嗎？"],["杜署長麗華：不是，我要講的是廚餘收來以後，它是一個液態的，對不對？你在煮的……"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有、沒有，廚餘收來固、液態都有。"],["杜署長麗華：都有，其實理論上來講，因為有時候水分比較高……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，水分比較高。"],["杜署長麗華：你要當作餵養豬隻的時候，一定要蒸煮，然後攪拌一個小時，但從現在目前……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你是指到達90度還要一個小時？還是從開始煮？"],["杜署長麗華：No……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對嘛！90度一個小時，這樣子你們就准許他拿廚餘去餵豬，是嗎？"],["杜署長麗華：我再報告一下，現在廚餘管控是由環境部交由各地方政府去做處理。在過去的協調機制裡面，地方政府的環保單位要去要求廚餘飼養豬隻的部分一定要做到以下幾點：第一個，他一定要有檢核廠；第二個，他要去看他當日上傳的資料、影片有沒有落實；第三個，假設有異樣，稽核大隊一定要到現場去稽核，看他有沒有照這個標準程序，目前掌握是有幾個漏洞……"],["徐委員欣瑩：本席想建議，其實廚餘應該可以固、液態分離，固態的去堆肥，它也不會去餵豬；液態的，您剛剛說對了一點，液態的占了70%到80%，液態的容易煮沸，那液態的煮沸之後……"],["杜署長麗華：煮沸以後要持續一個小時，這個才是關鍵。"],["徐委員欣瑩：才能夠把病毒殺死。"],["杜署長麗華：對，才能夠讓它不活化。重點就是，假設它煮完，像我們一般煮東西，開了就把火關掉，對不起，這樣不行！病毒還是在活化狀態，所以為什麼要持續一個小時，要貫徹這件事非常重要。"],["徐委員欣瑩：現在廚餘還是可以養豬，只要符合這個程序？"],["杜署長麗華：不行，這段時間都不行。"],["徐委員欣瑩：不行是什麼原因？"],["杜署長麗華：我們現在已經禁宰禁運，因為現在廚餘的風險高……"],["徐委員欣瑩：因為風險高，所以完全禁止就對了？"],["杜署長麗華：對，在這段時間，435戶的廚餘廠全部禁止……"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，那你們對於這些豬農，他們長期本來都有配合的，對不對？現在突然間這樣宣布，他們哪來那麼多飼料餵豬，你們有補助嗎？有補貼嗎？"],["杜署長麗華：我跟委員報告，有關廚餘養豬這個政策已經在檢討，慢慢的……第一個階段，一定要落實去檢核它的溫度：第二個是慢慢的……"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是，你現在這樣下令，你知道豬農他們的衝擊嗎？"],["杜署長麗華：不是……我們都知道，每一個層級都會受到衝擊，因為為了防疫……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，為了防疫，那他們怎麼辦？"],["杜署長麗華：有關廚餘養豬退場的議題也正在研擬，配合環境部跟我們部裡面在研擬怎麼樣的方式退場，而能夠減少到廚餘養豬的衝擊，包括可能轉換飼料，轉換飼料之間有什麼獎勵的措施或退場等等，這些都在研議中。"],["徐委員欣瑩：但是我現在講的是，每天豬都要吃，他們受到的衝擊，你們有沒有任何措施？這才是真正影響豬農最大的。"],["杜署長麗華：報告委員，這15天針對廚餘養豬戶，也有給他們在飼料平台的媒合給予一些相關的協助，不會影響到他們目前……"],["徐委員欣瑩：補助呢？你們準備多少來補助？"],["杜署長麗華：有、有。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你補助他們百分之幾？講不出來？沒有明確的……"],["周簡任技正文玲：我們會根據飼料差額去給他們補助，就像之前在……"],["徐委員欣瑩：飼料差額，意思是說他因為這個衝擊多出來要買飼料的，你們全額補助嗎？"],["周簡任技正文玲：我們就是會依照相關這樣的……其實在110年9月的時候，我們就已經有處理過一樣的事情，當時也是有跟農民互相……"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是，我是問這一次。"],["周簡任技正文玲：這一次我們就會用一樣的計算方式來補助他們在這一段時間，因為要轉去買飼料，然後做這樣的支持方案。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們要深入去了解，讓他們衝擊最小，好不好？"],["周簡任技正文玲：好，我知道，以上，謝謝。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，OK。"],["主席：謝謝徐欣瑩委員。","接下來請吳琪銘委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":244,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-8","speakers":["黃建賓","徐巧芯","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","麥玉珍","許宇甄","牛煦庭","徐欣瑩","吳琪銘","李柏毅","謝龍介","丁學忠","徐富癸","林楚茵","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","陳雪生","高金素梅","黃捷"],"page_start":175,"meetingDate":["2025-10-29"],"gazette_id":"1148901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請內政部部長、海洋委員會主任委員、內政部警政署署長、內政部移民署署長、海洋委員\n會海巡署署長、農業部部長、財政部關務署署長，就「防堵非洲豬瘟邊境檢疫與查緝機制之檢討\n與精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查委員徐巧芯等16人擬具「海岸巡防法第十三條\n條文修正草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1148901_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}