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11:13:24","會議時間":"2025-10-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、中央銀行、法務部、內政部警政署就「虛擬資產服務法草案及其相關子法修訂暨建立完善監理架構之進程」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.7815937500000003,"end":5.549093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.650343750000001,"end":6.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.36284375,"end":10.223468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.645343750000002,"end":16.230968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.500968750000002,"end":21.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.41159375,"end":34.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.32659375,"end":25.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.53596875,"end":48.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.03596875,"end":62.924093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.565343750000004,"end":67.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.10096875,"end":65.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.71659375,"end":69.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.85971875,"end":70.56846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.09596875,"end":73.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.97721875,"end":85.72221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.09346875,"end":89.95784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.41346875,"end":98.17596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.22284375000001,"end":95.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.37034375,"end":105.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.20846875000001,"end":106.22534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.22534375000001,"end":106.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.24221875,"end":107.87909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.87909375000001,"end":107.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.63846875,"end":113.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.13971875,"end":125.58096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.58096875000001,"end":125.61471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.05346875000001,"end":126.45846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.72846875,"end":128.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.98971875,"end":131.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.90909375,"end":169.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.87846875,"end":139.38471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.87284375000002,"end":149.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":155.92221875,"end":156.25971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.60346875000002,"end":172.34159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.78034375000001,"end":173.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.77596875,"end":174.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.29471875000002,"end":176.15534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.85159375,"end":176.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.18909375,"end":212.75721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.36471875,"end":216.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":214.79909375000003,"end":215.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.30096875,"end":217.04346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":217.75221875000003,"end":223.38846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":223.43909375,"end":229.98659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.50971875000002,"end":230.96534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":231.20159375,"end":234.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":234.44159375,"end":236.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.24284375000002,"end":241.74846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":242.22096875000003,"end":244.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.11096875,"end":246.45659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.67596875,"end":247.31721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.73909375000002,"end":264.71534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.90096875,"end":269.59221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.82846875,"end":273.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.31721875,"end":275.00909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.39721875000004,"end":289.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":289.40346875,"end":289.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.52159375,"end":296.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":296.96346875,"end":297.01409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.01409375000003,"end":311.86409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.40409375,"end":316.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.01096875,"end":322.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.59221875000003,"end":324.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.94221875,"end":327.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.18221875,"end":333.48096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.08846875,"end":350.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.86221875,"end":361.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.94909375000003,"end":373.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.67721875,"end":377.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01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我請金管委彭主委好 我們請彭主委"},{"start":9.403,"end":34.532,"text":"委員好這個去年你一上任那時候你就確認了說我們金管會會來訂定我們台灣首部的虛擬資產業管理法這非常的好而且你們確實也做了那也在今年的6月27號就把這個案子那就送到行政院去審查"},{"start":35.912,"end":62.776,"text":"這個案子的內容當然就專法這個內容包括消費者的保護包括市場交易的行為規範包括他們這個資產保管包括消費者的保護這些都非常的好業者的許可條件這些都是專法裡面所訂定這非常好可是從送進去到現在將近四個月了"},{"start":64.138,"end":89.612,"text":"那個主委你們有沒有跟行政院就是溝通一下有是什麼原因現在進度到底為何有碰到什麼困難嗎其實剛剛提到就是我們在其實我們送進去行政院很快就開會開會因為這會試設很多的單位他就提了很多很多的問題叫我們回去再來研商我們再把這個內容又修改提出來"},{"start":90.532,"end":107.752,"text":"又開了一次會大家就是其實我們都緊鑼密鼓的在進行這個討論有在緊鑼密鼓畢竟是新的東西有跟他們盯這個案子的審查有跟他們盯著就對了那你那個大概會在什麼時候你覺得行政院會合可"},{"start":108.966,"end":127.408,"text":"這個部分如果說就我個人的觀察因為同仁跟我回報就是說現在大家一些有比較重大的爭議的地方其實不多啦都是未來執行上大家細節因為這部法律重點會在未來執法怎麼去做一個比較詳細嚴密的制定當然制定的過程"},{"start":129.239,"end":139.427,"text":"為什麼我們現在要先求有為什麼比方說在這一段時間裡面我們金管有先推VSP法尊聲明有也確實有做登記那也26家業者來登記可是現在26家業者已經有18家18家已經被我們認為就把它除名掉不行它不合格這裡面有3家是嚴重的"},{"start":159.102,"end":169.498,"text":"洗錢詐騙你看像有一家像去年四月這個王牌數位的負責人光他一見就三億四千萬"},{"start":170.683,"end":195.732,"text":"那去年底還有這個必享科技這個詐騙33億之多啦33億之多總共這三件加起來加起來六七十億有六七十億這麼大的金額那所以你們就剔除了這18家所以我認為既然專法要加強內控"},{"start":197.293,"end":215.139,"text":"那加強內控就是說要查核開戶的目的查核開戶人的身份虛擬幣的流向的追蹤等等在這一個部分我們的專法裡面有沒有特別針對這個KYC的部分去做加強監管"},{"start":217.796,"end":235.866,"text":"那我剛才有報告我們的執法我們有特別針對一個內控內積的這個做一個專門執法我想在金融界人都知道我們金融機構的內控內積是一個非常非常重要而且非常非常綿密的一個管理的模式我想我們會這個這部分一定會像委員講我們會來強化"},{"start":237.407,"end":264.092,"text":"還有就剛才講說比如說我們針對那個疑似不法交易詐騙我們會另外一個執法來專門來做這個規範這個虛擬的我們當然該查 該管但是實質的存在我們銀行的款項你看像到現在為止我們國人存在國內銀行有超過60兆台幣那麼這些錢裡面我上回就提過了"},{"start":265.593,"end":272.378,"text":"我提過就是說針對中央銀行他有頒布一筆針對不動產的部分他認為不動產我們銀行的錢大眾的資金不應該幫建商"},{"start":281.545,"end":301.17,"text":"去炒作土地所以訂啦也就是說你貸款去建商要貸款可以要興建的這OK但是這個貸款過去的金額不能超過18個月都沒有動超過一年半沒有開工那表示說這建商根本買這個土地"},{"start":302.91,"end":326.929,"text":"是去炒地皮的不是這樣嗎那結果我那時候發現說這裡面金額最大的土地銀行最多土地銀行竟然不動產貸款裡面在前年底總共他貸了一兆四千八百零五億出去那到去年三月底"},{"start":328.961,"end":348.9,"text":"18個月沒有動工的從前年的1173億那當時你有要求他們改善那改善的結果他還剩下802億這麼多並沒有實質去要求推動就等於幫助當了草地皮的幫兇"},{"start":350.936,"end":376.647,"text":"等於建商要去炒房價現在房價這麼高漲土地銀行這麼專業的土地銀行竟然做了幫兇同樣的當時的台銀18個月沒有動工的有142億但是人家同樣的15個月以後到去年3月底到今年3月底人家只剩38億"},{"start":378.615,"end":397.304,"text":"等於台銀在你要求了以後他大幅度的去做了改善他要回了7成只剩3成還在繼續追蹤土地銀行剛好相反1173億他只去處理了3成還有高達7成800億啊"},{"start":405.911,"end":413.565,"text":"還在幫建商我搞不懂耶土英這些傢伙在幹什麼他還是土地專業的銀行耶"},{"start":415.794,"end":437.763,"text":"所以我搞不懂這兩家同樣百分之百關股同樣百分之百要受我們金管會不打緊還有財政部這麼嚴密的監管之下結果上有命令他下有對策還繼續在跟這些惡質的建商勾結"},{"start":439.301,"end":451.667,"text":"不可思議耶所以彭主委這一點你是不是要回去趕快交辦多久時間內要土地男給個交代我會回去跟財政部跟央行趕快來言商"},{"start":454.082,"end":481.308,"text":"再跟委員報告一下那因為你跟莊部長財政部莊部長你們也常會碰面嘛那九大公營行庫裡面這九大的董事長總經理都莊部長派的你可以請莊部長協助嘛查一查土地銀行到底在幹什麼這麼明目張膽我們立法委員在立法院公開質詢他啦"},{"start":484.144,"end":513.533,"text":"他文文不動這個是不是要積極辦理好不好那另外我們國內我們37家銀行手續費從過去2461億那增加到3156億他們的獲利增加這個是很好我們不嫉妒這些銀行他們做該做的事應有的收入這是應當但是這麼高的手續費的增加這代表了一件事情"},{"start":514.841,"end":543.804,"text":"就是說不但招攬的風險增加了嘛他去不當招攬很多買賣這種相關的金融商產品所謂的理財呀那讓存款戶去買了這些理財的產品那風險就增加所以我認為我們對這一個部分要加強稽查啦因為在我看到的齁比方說"},{"start":547.629,"end":548.853,"text":"這個這一部分的控管裡面"},{"start":551.038,"end":566.684,"text":"你們說爭議有減少了啦從前年的1390件佔國內銀行爭議案件的38%有降到16.3%這一點我是肯定你們金管會確實有做事有針對這個在監管但是這個減少會不會還有一種情況是他們的話術要變更高明啦更快變啦"},{"start":578.936,"end":604.779,"text":"理財專員憑他三寸不爛之舌把存款戶辛苦血汗錢就這樣又騙過去了騙到一些風險很高的金融產品上面所以這一個部分因為有實際的案例出現實際的案例光是和庫銀行過去我們都知道我們都認為和庫銀行是規規矩矩最老實的銀行之一"},{"start":605.78,"end":624.093,"text":"他本來乖乖齊齊老老實實的但是在金融圈這個大染缸裡面學壞了你們光是你們光是今年你看就抓到他兩屆才發了他八十萬才發的理由他這個幫客戶幫銀行辦理理財講座業務不實"},{"start":631.944,"end":656.994,"text":"還有什麼對保險公司照會涉及異常招標案件沒有建立異常招攬太陽管理機制你看這麼明顯有的案子還是竟然他們說有去辦招攬說明會但是招攬說明會原來是假的"},{"start":659.13,"end":681.864,"text":"只有留下檔案會議記錄根本完全沒有所以我們很多存款人那很多金融消費者在這個部分他們是無辜的嘛因為我們全民存款人365行不一定每個人對理財這個有專業所以都會信任銀行金融機構這些理財專員"},{"start":683.545,"end":693.335,"text":"結果如果這些理財專員自己不懂不答請純粹壞心眼堅守治道的結果就害慘了我們國內所有的"},{"start":695.407,"end":712.741,"text":"這個金融消費者我們可憐的存款人所以這一個部分我認為要加強監管好不好再老實如合作金庫者都會學壞所以這一點我們要謹記在心好不好好 謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝王委員接下來我們請葛禄君委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":781,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（11時1分）謝謝主席。我請金管會彭主委。"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["王委員世堅：彭主委，去年你一上任，那時候你就確認了金管會會來訂定臺灣首部的虛擬資產業管理法，這非常好，而且你們確實也做了，也在今年6月27日就把這個案子送到行政院去審查，這個專法的內容包括消費者的保護，包括市場交易的行為規範，包括資產保管，包括業者的許可條件，這些都是專法裡面所訂定的，都非常好。可是從送進去到現在已將近4個月了，主委，你們有沒有跟行政院溝通一下，到底是什麼原因、現在進度到底為何、有碰到什麼困難嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實我們送進去後，行政院很快就開會了，但因為這事涉很多的單位，他就提了很多很多的問題叫我們回去再來研商，我們再把這個內容又修改提出來，又開了一次會，其實我們都緊鑼密鼓地在進行討論，畢竟是新的東西。"],["王委員世堅：有在緊鑼密鼓，跟他們盯這個案子的審查，有跟他們盯著就對了？你覺得大概什麼時候行政院會核可？"],["彭主任委員金隆：關於這個部分，就我個人的觀察，因為同仁跟我回報，現在比較重大爭議的地方其實不多，都是在未來執行上的細節，因為這部法律重點會在未來子法要怎麼去做比較詳細、嚴密的制定。"],["王委員世堅：當然制定的過程，為什麼我們現在要先求有？比方說，在這一段時間裡面，金管會有先推VASP……"],["彭主任委員金隆：登記制。"],["王委員世堅：法遵聲明，也確實有做登記，有26家業者來登記，可是現在這26家業者……"],["彭主任委員金隆：剩8家，26家剩8家。"],["王委員世堅：已經有18家被除名掉，就是覺得不行、不合格的，這裡面有3家是嚴重的洗錢詐騙耶！你看，像有一家是去年4月王牌數位的負責人，光他一件就3億4,000萬，去年底還有幣想科技，詐騙33億之多，這三件加起來總共就6、70億這麼大的金額，所以你們就剔除了這18家。所以我認為既然專法要加強內控，加強內控就是要查核開戶的目的、查核開戶人的身分、虛擬幣流向的追蹤等等，在這個部分，我們的專法裡面有沒有特別針對KYC的部分做加強監管？"],["彭主任委員金隆：有，我剛才也報告過，我們也有特別針對內控、內稽的部分做一個專門的子法，我想在金融界的人都知道，金融機構的內控、內稽是非常非常重要且非常綿密的管理模式，針對這部分，我們一定會像委員講的，我們會來強化。還有剛才講的，比如說，疑似不法交易、詐騙的，我們會另訂一個子法專門來做規範。"],["王委員世堅：對，虛擬的我們當然該查、該管，但是實質存在我們銀行的款項，你看，到現在為止，國人存在國內銀行的存款超過60兆臺幣，這些錢裡面，我上回就提過了，中央銀行有頒布一筆針對不動產的部分，他認為不動產，我們銀行的錢、大眾的資金，不應該幫建商去炒作土地，所以訂了，也就是說，建商要貸款，可以！要興建OK，但是貸款過去的金額不能超過18個月都沒有動，超過一年半沒有開工，表示這建商買這個土地根本是去炒地皮的，不是這樣嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["王委員世堅：結果我那時候發現，這裡面金額最大的是土地銀行，土地銀行的不動產貸款裡面，在前年底總共貸了1兆4,805億出去，其中18個月沒有動工的，前年是1,173億，當時你有要求他們改善，改善的結果，到去年3月底，他還剩下802億這麼多，並沒有實質地去要求推動，等於當了炒地皮的幫兇，等於建商要去炒房價，現在房價這麼高漲，這麼專業的土地銀行竟然做了幫兇。同樣地，當時臺銀18個月沒有動工的有142億，但是同樣15個月以後，到今年3月底，臺銀只剩38億，等於臺銀在你要求了以後，他大幅度地去做了改善，要回了七成，只剩三成還在繼續追蹤。而土地銀行剛好相反，1,173億，他只去處理了三成，還有高達七成、800億啊！還在幫建商，我搞不懂耶！土銀這些傢伙在幹什麼？他還是土地專業的銀行，所以我搞不懂這兩家同樣百分之百官股，同樣百分之百要受金管會監管不打緊，還在財政部這麼嚴密的監管之下，結果上有命令，他下有對策，還繼續再跟這些惡質的建商勾結，不可思議耶！所以彭主委，這一點你是不是要趕快回去交辦，多久時間內要土地銀行給個交代？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我會回去跟財政部、跟央行趕快來研商，然後再跟委員報告。"],["王委員世堅：因為你跟財政部莊部長也常會碰面，九大公營行庫裡面，這九大的董事長、總經理都是莊部長派的，你可以請莊部長協助，查一查土地銀行到底在幹什麼？這麼明目張膽，我們立法委員在立法院公開質詢他，他還紋風不動，這個是不是要積極辦理，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["王委員世堅：另外，我們國內37家銀行手續費，從過去2,461億增加到3,156億，他們的獲利增加很好，我們不嫉妒這些銀行，他們做該做的事，應有的收入，這是應當。但是這麼高的手續費的增加，這代表了一件事情，就是不當招攬的風險增加了，他不當招攬、買賣很多這種相關的金融產品，即所謂的理財，讓存款戶買了這些理財的產品，風險就增加，所以我認為你們對這個部分要加強稽查。因為我看到比方這部分的控管，你們說爭議有減少了，從前年的1,390件、占國內銀行爭議案件38%，有降到16.3%，這一點我是肯定你們，金管會確實有做事，有針對這個在監管。但是這個減少會不會還有一種情況，是他們的話術變更高明了、更會騙？理財專員憑他的三寸不爛之舌，把存款戶辛苦血汗錢就這樣又騙過去了，騙到一些風險很高的金融產品上面，因為這個部分有實際的案例出現。過去我們都認為合庫銀行是規規矩矩、最老實的銀行之一，它本來規規矩矩、老老實實的，但是在金融圈這個大染缸裡面學壞了，光是今年你們就抓到它兩件，裁罰了80萬，裁罰的理由是陳報理財講座業務不實，還有對保險公司照會涉及異常招攬案件，沒有建立異常招攬態樣管理機制。你看這麼明顯，有的案子罰的還是他們竟然說有辦招攬說明會，但是那個招攬說明會原來是假的，只有留下檔案，根本完全沒有會議紀錄！很多存款人、很多金融消費者在這個部分是無辜的，因為全民、存款人三百六十行，不一定每個人都對理財有專業，所以都會信任銀行、金融機構的理財專員，如果這些理財專員自己不懂還不打緊，存著壞心眼、堅守自盜的結果，就害慘了國內所有的金融消費者、可憐的存款人。我認為這個部分要加強監管，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：好。"],["王委員世堅：再老實如合作金庫都會學壞，這一點你們要謹記在心，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：好，謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員。","接下來請葛如鈞委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-5","speakers":["李坤城","林德福","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","吳秉叡","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","王世堅","葛如鈞","吳宗憲","羅明才","王鴻薇","林思銘","李彥秀","林楚茵"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2025-10-30"],"gazette_id":"1149101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1149101_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、中央銀行、法務部、內政部警政署就「虛擬資產服務\n法草案及其相關子法修訂暨建立完善監理架構之進程」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1149101_00011"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}